I thought I wasn't doing the whole "use edge once per action" thing, but I ran it by my players, and it turns out I was all along! Whoops! I forget how smoothly combat runs in cypher sometimes. Great vid, really gets the concepts across!
I wish you had thrown in an example to clarify how the application of Edge shakes out differently between applying it at the end of an action and applying it as you go. My group has always applied it at the end and I'm really curious what the technically correct way to do it is.
Could you be more specific? Maybe with an example? Like what separates applying it "at the end" or applying "as you go" from each other. I'm interested!
I was referring to what you were talking about in the video from about the 10 minute mark to 10 minutes and 40 seconds. It sounded to me like there were two different ways to apply Edge and that although they usually result in the same points deduction, at higher tiers it could be different. I didn't understand the distinction you were making though and was hoping for an example to illustrate the difference you alluded to.
@@luketurnipseed6633 My fault for misunderstanding. Here's the distinction. a nano casts onslaught and uses effort. Onslaught costs 1 point of intellect while effort costs 3. A lot of players and GMs might add this up to 4 and then subtract Edge from *that*. Instead, you are technically supposed to apply Edge to either the Onslaught cost OR the Effort cost. At lower tiers and in most cases in general, the cost difference typically doesn't matter. It happens often enough that if you added the points together and then subtracted edge OR subtracted edge as you "activate" your power the number would be the same. This function can be really tricky to fully get at first and I don't always explain it well because it's sort of a step-by-step process that's challenging to write out. I'm going to make a note of this and see if there's enough info here for a video on the topic because it could be explained in more depth and in a way that shows the difference.
@@THEINFINITECONSTRUCT running this past you to see if I understand correctly (and to assist anyone else looking at this thread like I did). I too had trouble with the "why" the different methods mattered. - In your example casting onslaught and using effort all are essentially one action and therefore Edge would apply once. To assist in seeing why let's first assume the Nano's edge is 2. - if applied to Onslaught, then the total would be: Onslaught (0) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (3) - if applied to Effort, then the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (1) = Total Cost (2) Obviously we would choose the second - which matches the "at the end" method, and implies it doesn't matter. - Using the "at the end" method, the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (4) - Edge (2) = Adjusted Cost (2) At a higher level, the Nano's edge is 4. - if applied to Onslaught, then the total would be: Onslaught (0) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (3) - if applied to Effort, then the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (0) = Total Cost (1) We would still choose the second, but in this case it does not match the "at the end" method. - Using the "at the end" method, the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (4) - Edge (4) = Adjusted Cost (0)
I am currently getting ready to get into Numenera and host my first adventure for friends, but I am still a bit confused and timid about the systematic stuff and whether I will be differentiating things properly in the spur of the moment when the time comes. Your videos - especially ones like this or your adventure video - are really helpful to me, so thank you very much!
Your intro explains my time with Monte Cooks Invisible Sun… so cool, but if it doesn’t feel spread out (rules) across the books. Daunting, to say the least. 😁
Love your videos. Just started new campaign with people who never played Numenera and your videos really helped them understand the setting and the system!
Something else I've always been a bit shaky on is can I for example apply Edge from lets say I add in 3 Might pool points that I have 1 Edge in bringing that cost down to 2 on a task like a melee attack where I used a point of Edge to bring 3 points of Might Pool down to 2. Or do I have to decide which to use edge on and also does using effort from two different stats on the same task qualify for the Edge reduction the same way it does when you use two levels of Effort from the same pool? Thanks.
Got a quick question here, effort related - is it implied that the effort points should be spent regardless of whether the task had succeeded or not, or is it spent only if the task has ended up being successful? I haven't found a definitive answer on this one throughout the reddit topics, let alone the books...
It is definitely spent success or failure. The only exception is when you roll a natural 20 and have spent effort, then the points are "refunded." Cypher's often a game of resource-management/risk-reward balance.
@@THEINFINITECONSTRUCT I see, thank you for the response! I'm still quite new to GMing, so trying different ways to handle similar scenarios, but still it's better to know how the system's rule was intended to be used :)
Unfortunately the wording on the rules around Edge are not as specific as it needs to be. I've run into an issue with the Shreds the Walls of the World focus from Numenera Destiny. Even at first tier, it has a pair of abilities that are meant to be used together, one using Speed (Phase Sprint, an action) and the other using Might (Disrupting Touch, an enabler that turns Phase Sprint into an attack, thus is part of that action). If a character has 1 Edge in both Might and Speed, what Edge gets applied? I had to settle on "you can only apply Edge once per action, so you have to choose which of your two Edge values to apply." It's from the mention of using Edge on p. 25 of Destiny, but that wording implies it's all coming from the same pool. The ruling still hasn't felt satisfying.
I'd rule that both the Speed and Might Edges apply. Numenera Discovery page 25 (and Cypher System Rulebook p18) says, "You can use Edge for a particular stat only once per action." Since your Action ability draws on Speed and your Enabler on Might, that situation fits into the "only once for each", so both Edges should apply. As the video calls out, "Edge represents knowing how to use what you have." It makes sense that the Edge for each stat can be applied once per Action, and that's what the rules explicitly state. "Explicit" or not, it's easy to just "make a call" during play and later learn that it was technically wrong, so I'm not criticizing your ruling. We've all done it and will do it again. It's just part of GMing.
I concur with Element Zero. Edge applies once per action from whichever pool the cost is coming from. Edge is the player's "free cheat" to lower the cost of effort or an ability, a chance to even the odds, flip the script, and dramatically change the encounter in creative ways by having fewer points deducted from their stat pools than they would be for someone without that Edge. As indicated in the video, still having 16 points of Int remaining vs 12 after deftly succeeding in a critical task can be a relief when an encounter immediately follows. The player is more prepared for the fight because their Edge greatly reduced the expenditure of stat points. Plus, this feeling of being powerful, of being extra effective, to be a superhumanoid, makes them feel good and that's the point of the game: to have fun cooperatively weaving together an epic, interactive, and entertaining story. The rules are just there as a supporting framework to help make that happen. In the end, you are the GM so it's your call.
I thought I wasn't doing the whole "use edge once per action" thing, but I ran it by my players, and it turns out I was all along! Whoops! I forget how smoothly combat runs in cypher sometimes. Great vid, really gets the concepts across!
I wish you had thrown in an example to clarify how the application of Edge shakes out differently between applying it at the end of an action and applying it as you go. My group has always applied it at the end and I'm really curious what the technically correct way to do it is.
Could you be more specific? Maybe with an example? Like what separates applying it "at the end" or applying "as you go" from each other. I'm interested!
I was referring to what you were talking about in the video from about the 10 minute mark to 10 minutes and 40 seconds. It sounded to me like there were two different ways to apply Edge and that although they usually result in the same points deduction, at higher tiers it could be different. I didn't understand the distinction you were making though and was hoping for an example to illustrate the difference you alluded to.
@@luketurnipseed6633 My fault for misunderstanding.
Here's the distinction.
a nano casts onslaught and uses effort. Onslaught costs 1 point of intellect while effort costs 3.
A lot of players and GMs might add this up to 4 and then subtract Edge from *that*. Instead, you are technically supposed to apply Edge to either the Onslaught cost OR the Effort cost.
At lower tiers and in most cases in general, the cost difference typically doesn't matter. It happens often enough that if you added the points together and then subtracted edge OR subtracted edge as you "activate" your power the number would be the same.
This function can be really tricky to fully get at first and I don't always explain it well because it's sort of a step-by-step process that's challenging to write out. I'm going to make a note of this and see if there's enough info here for a video on the topic because it could be explained in more depth and in a way that shows the difference.
@@THEINFINITECONSTRUCT Thanks for the explanation! That is definitely a tricky nuance, but I think I understand.
@@THEINFINITECONSTRUCT running this past you to see if I understand correctly (and to assist anyone else looking at this thread like I did). I too had trouble with the "why" the different methods mattered.
- In your example casting onslaught and using effort all are essentially one action and therefore Edge would apply once.
To assist in seeing why let's first assume the Nano's edge is 2.
- if applied to Onslaught, then the total would be: Onslaught (0) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (3)
- if applied to Effort, then the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (1) = Total Cost (2)
Obviously we would choose the second - which matches the "at the end" method, and implies it doesn't matter.
- Using the "at the end" method, the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (4) - Edge (2) = Adjusted Cost (2)
At a higher level, the Nano's edge is 4.
- if applied to Onslaught, then the total would be: Onslaught (0) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (3)
- if applied to Effort, then the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (0) = Total Cost (1)
We would still choose the second, but in this case it does not match the "at the end" method.
- Using the "at the end" method, the total would be: Onslaught (1) + Effort (3) = Total Cost (4) - Edge (4) = Adjusted Cost (0)
I am currently getting ready to get into Numenera and host my first adventure for friends, but I am still a bit confused and timid about the systematic stuff and whether I will be differentiating things properly in the spur of the moment when the time comes. Your videos - especially ones like this or your adventure video - are really helpful to me, so thank you very much!
Are there any rules you find particularly confusing?
I did not truly understand this stuff until I was trying to teach my friend how to play when making his character
Your intro explains my time with Monte Cooks Invisible Sun… so cool, but if it doesn’t feel spread out (rules) across the books.
Daunting, to say the least. 😁
Love your videos. Just started new campaign with people who never played Numenera and your videos really helped them understand the setting and the system!
Great explanation
Something else I've always been a bit shaky on is can I for example apply Edge from lets say I add in 3 Might pool points that I have 1 Edge in bringing that cost down to 2 on a task like a melee attack where I used a point of Edge to bring 3 points of Might Pool down to 2. Or do I have to decide which to use edge on and also does using effort from two different stats on the same task qualify for the Edge reduction the same way it does when you use two levels of Effort from the same pool? Thanks.
Got a quick question here, effort related - is it implied that the effort points should be spent regardless of whether the task had succeeded or not, or is it spent only if the task has ended up being successful? I haven't found a definitive answer on this one throughout the reddit topics, let alone the books...
It is definitely spent success or failure. The only exception is when you roll a natural 20 and have spent effort, then the points are "refunded." Cypher's often a game of resource-management/risk-reward balance.
@@THEINFINITECONSTRUCT I see, thank you for the response!
I'm still quite new to GMing, so trying different ways to handle similar scenarios, but still it's better to know how the system's rule was intended to be used :)
Unfortunately the wording on the rules around Edge are not as specific as it needs to be. I've run into an issue with the Shreds the Walls of the World focus from Numenera Destiny. Even at first tier, it has a pair of abilities that are meant to be used together, one using Speed (Phase Sprint, an action) and the other using Might (Disrupting Touch, an enabler that turns Phase Sprint into an attack, thus is part of that action). If a character has 1 Edge in both Might and Speed, what Edge gets applied? I had to settle on "you can only apply Edge once per action, so you have to choose which of your two Edge values to apply." It's from the mention of using Edge on p. 25 of Destiny, but that wording implies it's all coming from the same pool. The ruling still hasn't felt satisfying.
I'd rule that both the Speed and Might Edges apply.
Numenera Discovery page 25 (and Cypher System Rulebook p18) says, "You can use Edge for a particular stat only once per action."
Since your Action ability draws on Speed and your Enabler on Might, that situation fits into the "only once for each", so both Edges should apply.
As the video calls out, "Edge represents knowing how to use what you have." It makes sense that the Edge for each stat can be applied once per Action, and that's what the rules explicitly state.
"Explicit" or not, it's easy to just "make a call" during play and later learn that it was technically wrong, so I'm not criticizing your ruling. We've all done it and will do it again. It's just part of GMing.
I concur with Element Zero. Edge applies once per action from whichever pool the cost is coming from. Edge is the player's "free cheat" to lower the cost of effort or an ability, a chance to even the odds, flip the script, and dramatically change the encounter in creative ways by having fewer points deducted from their stat pools than they would be for someone without that Edge.
As indicated in the video, still having 16 points of Int remaining vs 12 after deftly succeeding in a critical task can be a relief when an encounter immediately follows. The player is more prepared for the fight because their Edge greatly reduced the expenditure of stat points.
Plus, this feeling of being powerful, of being extra effective, to be a superhumanoid, makes them feel good and that's the point of the game: to have fun cooperatively weaving together an epic, interactive, and entertaining story. The rules are just there as a supporting framework to help make that happen. In the end, you are the GM so it's your call.