The fort-da game is a form of play that has greater significance than a sense of irreducible fun... but I was surprised you all didn't tie the conversation together with a discussion of recreation, as even Adorno, while listening to Schoenberg from his porcelain throne, is participating in a movement of recreation (and to some extent fun).
Also, what about talk of “happiness”? That surely has to be related to fun! Yet, there is a lot to learn. I love your Freud reference, and Schoenberg too.
I've never understood the point of so-called "scary" movies. They're usually infernally boring, but why would I want to terrify myself? Perhaps it's a substitute, for people who suppress existential questions. They have to emerge somewhere. It also blends into vicarious sadism, an everyday device of narrative products of the entertainment industry.
It was more art than fun, but also quite positively entertaining. Thank you for being playful and honest! Speaking of embodiment and having fun … sounds like direct democracy was much more real back in greece, when citizens were collocated and physically present when making important decisions.
Amazing episode!! The discussion on ‘fun scared’ reminds me of a book I recently checked out called Liminality and the Modern. In it Bjorn Thomassen, covers the history of vice, rituals, and sights of enjoyment as they’ve been developed alongside industrialization. He gives bungee jumping as this prime example of thrill seeking into the void. Made me think about fun and what drives me towards some of these experiences
What an instructive and entertaining podcast! Thanks! I think that the distinction between high culture (unique, challenging and instructive) and pop culture (formulaic, escapist, ordinary) is simplistic. It excludes the rich culture of the rural people - folk culture and also what we call artistic popular culture, elements of popular culture elevated to high culture by composers and poets just like composers of classical music took themes and melodies from folk music. Let us not forget that cultural products that today are considered high culture like the great tragedies and comedies of ancient Athens or Shakespearian theatre were played (taught in ancient Greece) to popular audiences. There was something celebratory in their performance reminiscent of their origin in rural celebrations. Actually, the Greeks turned rituals into theatrical plays and competition into Olympic Games. Speaking of celebrations with lots of fun, carnivals come to mind. They were more spontaneous in the past, more organized as spectacles now with a strong erotic (in dancing) element but also with lots of fun and making fun. I often compare carnivals in our countries with Halloween in Anglo-Saxon countries. Is it Eros vs Thanatos, or celebrating eros and making fun of death? Speaking of making fun of others which is part of having fun, we can make a distinction between making fun of the powerful and making fun of the weak, persons with disabilities and minorities, because there are both. Take anecdotes. The French make fun of the Belgians, many Europeans make fun of the Jews (they used to more frequently), the Greeks make fun of northern Europeans for their naiveté, the Chinese make fun of the Mongols and the Japanese of the Chinese. In your countries there is a great tradition of stand up comedies. There are people who criticize them for their racist jokes that many people find offensive. There is a debate going on in Britain that opposes those who support the freedom of expression in comedies and those who would like the cancellation of racist jokes. A good discussion of why we laugh and a great analysis of jokes is to be found in Freud’s “Jokes and their Relationship to the Unconscious”. For a philosophical discussion of laughter, and fun is related to laughter, there is Bergson’s “Le Rire” (the Laughter).
@@timj4601 I love wit, repartee, but humour can be used to change the subject or to separate oneself from it. After all, one laughs ABOUT something, rather than thinking about it or experiencing it. The subject becomes the joke, rather than the thing itself.
Engaging in a vast generalisation, I've often noticed that Americans and the English share this trait, a fear of "seriousness". So exasperating, the joke meant to sabotage a train of thought, change the subject. No, I don't stereotype entire populations, but this is a cultural difference that I've been observing for half a century.
A good word for a podcast would be "poetry", the opposite of "fun". What do we mean when we say that something is "poetic"? I'd like to submit that poetry is the neglected value of contemporary society, the blind spot, the thing that is missing. This puts me in mind of the famous Novalis quote, " to romanticize the world is to make us aware of the magic, mystery and wonder of the world; it is to educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite. "
Thank you both! I forgot who said it but the quote that “youth is immortal” comes to my mind from the start. This to me goes down a few paths. First, if we learn how to have fun by playing when we were kids, then maybe “fun” has something to do with “immortality.” I am thinking also of the immortal Sir John Falstaff, whose “Give me life!” is my favorite motto, even though I am no Falstaff (I wish I were!). Dr. Samuel Johnson spoke about life as being something where we have very little enjoyment and much more difficulty. But, second, I have in mind a poem, “The Nymphs Reply to the Shepherd” by Sir Walter Raleigh, where the nymphs deny the shepherd access to their company unless that shepherd learns to be young again, basically. Third, I myself am a great proponent of good clean fun. I can offer my take on fun through literature (my speciality), and some philosophy, and even religion, or spirituality, where I remember something Moshe Idel said that talking about one’s mystical experiences is not enough to share them with others, but that the mystic must show them just how that the mystical experiences were able to happen by means of some action to get them. Perhaps the same can be said of “fun,” that it is not enough to talk about fun times, but to have a means to have fun by showing others just how to have fun. Anyways, thank you for your show! 🎉🎉🎉
Also, I think that because traditional philosophers do not use the word "fun" much, that just because they exclude it from their vocabularies, does not mean that philosophy will die from boredom. Rather, it lives on, even without the word "fun," and philosophers keep thriving without it!
You both are great with these presentations. It is truly fun for me to listen to and reflect on. Thank you.
Well this was fun :D
The fort-da game is a form of play that has greater significance than a sense of irreducible fun... but I was surprised you all didn't tie the conversation together with a discussion of recreation, as even Adorno, while listening to Schoenberg from his porcelain throne, is participating in a movement of recreation (and to some extent fun).
Also, what about talk of “happiness”? That surely has to be related to fun! Yet, there is a lot to learn. I love your Freud reference, and Schoenberg too.
I've never understood the point of so-called "scary" movies. They're usually infernally boring, but why would I want to terrify myself? Perhaps it's a substitute, for people who suppress existential questions. They have to emerge somewhere. It also blends into vicarious sadism, an everyday device of narrative products of the entertainment industry.
I love how this episode revealed David as a lip sync assasssin and Ellie as a true Libra. Queen behavior. 💅🏼
It was more art than fun, but also quite positively entertaining. Thank you for being playful and honest!
Speaking of embodiment and having fun … sounds like direct democracy was much more real back in greece, when citizens were collocated and physically present when making important decisions.
Ha, it's pronounced more like "shpahs", not "shpays". Except that the "ah" is short.
Amazing episode!! The discussion on ‘fun scared’ reminds me of a book I recently checked out called Liminality and the Modern. In it Bjorn Thomassen, covers the history of vice, rituals, and sights of enjoyment as they’ve been developed alongside industrialization. He gives bungee jumping as this prime example of thrill seeking into the void. Made me think about fun and what drives me towards some of these experiences
What an instructive and entertaining podcast! Thanks!
I think that the distinction between high culture (unique, challenging and instructive) and pop culture (formulaic, escapist, ordinary) is simplistic. It excludes the rich culture of the rural people - folk culture and also what we call artistic popular culture, elements of popular culture elevated to high culture by composers and poets just like composers of classical music took themes and melodies from folk music.
Let us not forget that cultural products that today are considered high culture like the great tragedies and comedies of ancient Athens or Shakespearian theatre were played (taught in ancient Greece) to popular audiences. There was something celebratory in their performance reminiscent of their origin in rural celebrations. Actually, the Greeks turned rituals into theatrical plays and competition into Olympic Games.
Speaking of celebrations with lots of fun, carnivals come to mind. They were more spontaneous in the past, more organized as spectacles now with a strong erotic (in dancing) element but also with lots of fun and making fun. I often compare carnivals in our countries with Halloween in Anglo-Saxon countries. Is it Eros vs Thanatos, or celebrating eros and making fun of death?
Speaking of making fun of others which is part of having fun, we can make a distinction between making fun of the powerful and making fun of the weak, persons with disabilities and minorities, because there are both. Take anecdotes. The French make fun of the Belgians, many Europeans make fun of the Jews (they used to more frequently), the Greeks make fun of northern Europeans for their naiveté, the Chinese make fun of the Mongols and the Japanese of the Chinese. In your countries there is a great tradition of stand up comedies. There are people who criticize them for their racist jokes that many people find offensive. There is a debate going on in Britain that opposes those who support the freedom of expression in comedies and those who would like the cancellation of racist jokes.
A good discussion of why we laugh and a great analysis of jokes is to be found in Freud’s “Jokes and their Relationship to the Unconscious”. For a philosophical discussion of laughter, and fun is related to laughter, there is Bergson’s “Le Rire” (the Laughter).
thank you... my fav philosophers you are 🙏
"Fun" actually implies distance. I enjoy looking at beautiful paintings, but can't say that it's "fun". There's too much love involved.
What do you mean by distance? (Sorry if they spoke about it in the video I haven't listened to it).
@@timj4601 I love wit, repartee, but humour can be used to change the subject or to separate oneself from it. After all, one laughs ABOUT something, rather than thinking about it or experiencing it. The subject becomes the joke, rather than the thing itself.
Engaging in a vast generalisation, I've often noticed that Americans and the English share this trait, a fear of "seriousness". So exasperating, the joke meant to sabotage a train of thought, change the subject. No, I don't stereotype entire populations, but this is a cultural difference that I've been observing for half a century.
Fun research!
A good word for a podcast would be "poetry", the opposite of "fun". What do we mean when we say that something is "poetic"? I'd like to submit that poetry is the neglected value of contemporary society, the blind spot, the thing that is missing. This puts me in mind of the famous Novalis quote, " to romanticize the world is to make us aware of the magic, mystery and wonder of the world; it is to educate the senses to see the ordinary as extraordinary, the familiar as strange, the mundane as sacred, the finite as infinite. "
Thank you both! I forgot who said it but the quote that “youth is immortal” comes to my mind from the start. This to me goes down a few paths. First, if we learn how to have fun by playing when we were kids, then maybe “fun” has something to do with “immortality.” I am thinking also of the immortal Sir John Falstaff, whose “Give me life!” is my favorite motto, even though I am no Falstaff (I wish I were!). Dr. Samuel Johnson spoke about life as being something where we have very little enjoyment and much more difficulty. But, second, I have in mind a poem, “The Nymphs Reply to the Shepherd” by Sir Walter Raleigh, where the nymphs deny the shepherd access to their company unless that shepherd learns to be young again, basically. Third, I myself am a great proponent of good clean fun. I can offer my take on fun through literature (my speciality), and some philosophy, and even religion, or spirituality, where I remember something Moshe Idel said that talking about one’s mystical experiences is not enough to share them with others, but that the mystic must show them just how that the mystical experiences were able to happen by means of some action to get them. Perhaps the same can be said of “fun,” that it is not enough to talk about fun times, but to have a means to have fun by showing others just how to have fun. Anyways, thank you for your show! 🎉🎉🎉
Also, I think that because traditional philosophers do not use the word "fun" much, that just because they exclude it from their vocabularies, does not mean that philosophy will die from boredom. Rather, it lives on, even without the word "fun," and philosophers keep thriving without it!
17:23 weeb amongus?