Thehraw is completely lost from today’s music. Almost 99.99% of today’s musician are focused on speed, nothing else. Thanks for bringing this into light. Pranam.
I expected a more nuanced response from Pt AC. It is true that the average kaalapramaana (and the word average is important here) of carnatic music is higher than that of hindustani music. The very nature of carnatic aesthetics dictates that. But that does not mean vilambit does not exist in cm. There are CM stalwarts who are well known for their vilamba kaala singing and importance to saukhyam in their alaap, etc. It is also true that the general tendency of resorting to speed and rhythmic pyrotechnics does exist today, and that the importance of saukhya /thehraav and svara perfection should be emphasized. But this is not a fault of the carnatic system, it is the practitioners who need to work on it.
I am not surprised to hear the comments of Ajoy Chakraborthy on Karnataka Sangitam. Ati Vilamba and Vilamba are part of Karnataka Sangitam. Ati Vilamba has gone out of practice after concerts duration got reduced to 90 minutes. In 3 + hours concerts Vilamba is in practice. I am shocked at the ignorance of Dr.CNR Rao on Karnataka Sangitam. Raga alapana is of 12 to 15 minutes in Ragam Tanam Pallavi. 6 to 10 minutes for a major compositions and 2 to 3 minutes for sub-major compositions. Ajoy Ji having performed Jugal bandhi concerts must have experienced these. Why misleading comments?
It takes decades to master carnatic.. hence few great masters are there. If one learns carnatic for 15 years and anothet hindustani for 15 years, the hindustani student is surely stage ready and can captivate audience, the carnatic student needs a decade more to achieve that probably.
What you say has a lot of merit, and I have been thinking about the same recently. In my opinion, when talking of being performance ready for either Carnatic or Hindustani, we are actually dealing with completely different audiences as far as basic knowledge is concerned. One (Carnatic) has an audience that are generally very knowledgeable about the music, can recognize the main Ragams, and count Talam. The other (Hindustani) has an audience of mostly non-associated, appreciators whom are very receptive to the music, but may only have a smattering of technical knowledge or none at all. Therefore, comparatively, a Carnatic audience is much less easy to 'captivate' than a Hindustani one. The theory and technicality of Hindustani music has been kept mystical and vague for a very long time (which has changed in the past two generations), making more appreciators, whereas Carnatic music is very much a part of everyday culture in the South, making more practitioners. I am not saying that Hindustani music does not have the audience that Carnatic music has, but, comparatively, there are more practitioners in a Carnatic audience, and more listeners in a Hindustani audience. That being said, even though Ajoy Chakrabortyji is like a Guru to me, this answer tells me that the Hindustani-Carnatic knowledge gap needs to be desperately bridged, not only among Rasikas, but amongst musicians themselves. In general, I find that Carnatic musicians know more about Hindustani music than Hindustani musicians know about Carnatic music, and it results in a harsh musical stereotyping that is not really healthy for any musical exchange to happen. Was hoping for a more nuanced answer in line with the title, but it ended up being a monologue about how Hindustani music is better than Carnatic. Sad. Much love to both systems and towards the unity of North and South!
While a lot of comments talk about manodharma in carnatic music, aalapana before each song and the RTPs, I think we have to give it to the Hindustani system for its greater focus on exploring the raga bhavam. A simple contrast is how the lessons begin in the two schools. For carnatic music, it begins with sarali varisai, janta varisai and then dhattu varisai thereby slowly training the voice and getting used to layam. Manodharma comes after one has learnt a few varnams. On the other hand, in Hindustani, exploration of raaga and the aakaram start very early if not right the start. Hindustani is not composition heavy. They have much lesser compositions are focused on improvisations. Thats their style. For carnatic musicians, exploring even 50% of the compositions in a lifetime is nearly impossible. So they seldom differentiate through improvisations. They always can pick up a new krithi or a new bharathiyar song or thiruppugazh or abhang or a thukkada and bring in a new colour. But what needs to be said is, im not sure how much the north has explore the south, the way south has explore the north. All said, every style is beautiful in its own way. Same raga sung in different styles can definitely evoke different emotions or atleast different shades thereby making both relevant!
I never knew so Hindustani musicians lack understanding to such a high level. Giving anecdotal evidence to try to justify something is the nost rookie mistake anyone can do. Its sad to see that someone who is considered among the best Hindustani singers has such a fragile understanding of music itself, Carnatic is still put of reach. He doesnt understand "Usi", "Jati" or anything at all. He doesmt understand that musicians have their own styles and these styles cannot be projected to the compex system itself. At this point, given his level of understanding, it wont be wrong to call him am artist of light music, rather than classical. P.S: Would've loved to see hin make these arguments in front of BMK. He would've got a year full. Unfortunately BMK is no more.
Rao is still one guy. I thought Pt was above all these. The north vs south continues at such intellectual levels as well and by people who are God fearing and appear down to earth.
Huge respect to Ajoy ji ! I have had an opportunity to grow listening to both forms of music and i am from Nepal. Both forms of music are great in their forms but i think his comments could be better. Carnatic music is one of the most purest and unadulterated forms of music that has power to uplift ones spiritual power. I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to admire carnatic music.
Yet another wrong reply by Pandit Ajoy Chakraborthy in this program. He said he performed jugalbandhi concerts with Genius of All Geniuses Dr.BMK singing only BMK's compositions. Video recordings of few such concerts give us the composition of Jayadeva Ashtapadi. I am disappointed that Pandit Arvind Parekh's curated 'Uttar-Dakshin' events of dialogues between maestros of HM and KS/CM has not improved the understanding of KS/CM of HM maestros.
To be fair, the melodies of the Jayadeva Ashtapadis as sung by BMK are composed by BMK himself, so, in a way, they are his compositions. I do agree about the clear half-baked understanding between Hindustani and Carnatic.
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Thehraw is completely lost from today’s music. Almost 99.99% of today’s musician are focused on speed, nothing else. Thanks for bringing this into light. Pranam.
Yes, the thehraav needs prolonged and rigorous taleem of swar sadhna.
I expected a more nuanced response from Pt AC. It is true that the average kaalapramaana (and the word average is important here) of carnatic music is higher than that of hindustani music. The very nature of carnatic aesthetics dictates that. But that does not mean vilambit does not exist in cm. There are CM stalwarts who are well known for their vilamba kaala singing and importance to saukhyam in their alaap, etc. It is also true that the general tendency of resorting to speed and rhythmic pyrotechnics does exist today, and that the importance of saukhya /thehraav and svara perfection should be emphasized. But this is not a fault of the carnatic system, it is the practitioners who need to work on it.
Perfect! I thought the same when he was speaking ✅
I am not surprised to hear the comments of Ajoy Chakraborthy on Karnataka Sangitam.
Ati Vilamba and Vilamba are part of Karnataka Sangitam. Ati Vilamba has gone out of practice after concerts duration got reduced to 90 minutes. In 3 + hours concerts Vilamba is in practice. I am shocked at the ignorance of Dr.CNR Rao on Karnataka Sangitam. Raga alapana is of 12 to 15 minutes in Ragam Tanam Pallavi. 6 to 10 minutes for a major compositions and 2 to 3 minutes for sub-major compositions. Ajoy Ji having performed Jugal bandhi concerts must have experienced these. Why misleading comments?
sabhi rasiko ko, gurujano ko pranam and shukriya.
It takes decades to master carnatic.. hence few great masters are there. If one learns carnatic for 15 years and anothet hindustani for 15 years, the hindustani student is surely stage ready and can captivate audience, the carnatic student needs a decade more to achieve that probably.
What you say has a lot of merit, and I have been thinking about the same recently. In my opinion, when talking of being performance ready for either Carnatic or Hindustani, we are actually dealing with completely different audiences as far as basic knowledge is concerned. One (Carnatic) has an audience that are generally very knowledgeable about the music, can recognize the main Ragams, and count Talam. The other (Hindustani) has an audience of mostly non-associated, appreciators whom are very receptive to the music, but may only have a smattering of technical knowledge or none at all. Therefore, comparatively, a Carnatic audience is much less easy to 'captivate' than a Hindustani one. The theory and technicality of Hindustani music has been kept mystical and vague for a very long time (which has changed in the past two generations), making more appreciators, whereas Carnatic music is very much a part of everyday culture in the South, making more practitioners. I am not saying that Hindustani music does not have the audience that Carnatic music has, but, comparatively, there are more practitioners in a Carnatic audience, and more listeners in a Hindustani audience.
That being said, even though Ajoy Chakrabortyji is like a Guru to me, this answer tells me that the Hindustani-Carnatic knowledge gap needs to be desperately bridged, not only among Rasikas, but amongst musicians themselves. In general, I find that Carnatic musicians know more about Hindustani music than Hindustani musicians know about Carnatic music, and it results in a harsh musical stereotyping that is not really healthy for any musical exchange to happen. Was hoping for a more nuanced answer in line with the title, but it ended up being a monologue about how Hindustani music is better than Carnatic. Sad. Much love to both systems and towards the unity of North and South!
🙏🙏🙏
Guru ji pranam
While a lot of comments talk about manodharma in carnatic music, aalapana before each song and the RTPs, I think we have to give it to the Hindustani system for its greater focus on exploring the raga bhavam.
A simple contrast is how the lessons begin in the two schools. For carnatic music, it begins with sarali varisai, janta varisai and then dhattu varisai thereby slowly training the voice and getting used to layam. Manodharma comes after one has learnt a few varnams. On the other hand, in Hindustani, exploration of raaga and the aakaram start very early if not right the start.
Hindustani is not composition heavy. They have much lesser compositions are focused on improvisations. Thats their style. For carnatic musicians, exploring even 50% of the compositions in a lifetime is nearly impossible. So they seldom differentiate through improvisations. They always can pick up a new krithi or a new bharathiyar song or thiruppugazh or abhang or a thukkada and bring in a new colour.
But what needs to be said is, im not sure how much the north has explore the south, the way south has explore the north.
All said, every style is beautiful in its own way. Same raga sung in different styles can definitely evoke different emotions or atleast different shades thereby making both relevant!
I never knew so Hindustani musicians lack understanding to such a high level. Giving anecdotal evidence to try to justify something is the nost rookie mistake anyone can do.
Its sad to see that someone who is considered among the best Hindustani singers has such a fragile understanding of music itself, Carnatic is still put of reach.
He doesnt understand "Usi", "Jati" or anything at all. He doesmt understand that musicians have their own styles and these styles cannot be projected to the compex system itself.
At this point, given his level of understanding, it wont be wrong to call him am artist of light music, rather than classical.
P.S:
Would've loved to see hin make these arguments in front of BMK. He would've got a year full.
Unfortunately BMK is no more.
Rao is still one guy. I thought Pt was above all these. The north vs south continues at such intellectual levels as well and by people who are God fearing and appear down to earth.
Huge respect to Ajoy ji ! I have had an opportunity to grow listening to both forms of music and i am from Nepal. Both forms of music are great in their forms but i think his comments could be better. Carnatic music is one of the most purest and unadulterated forms of music that has power to uplift ones spiritual power. I have been extremely fortunate to have been able to admire carnatic music.
Yet another wrong reply by Pandit Ajoy Chakraborthy in this program. He said he performed jugalbandhi concerts with Genius of All Geniuses Dr.BMK singing only BMK's compositions. Video recordings of few such concerts give us the composition of Jayadeva Ashtapadi.
I am disappointed that Pandit Arvind Parekh's curated 'Uttar-Dakshin' events of dialogues between maestros of HM and KS/CM has not improved the understanding of KS/CM of HM maestros.
To be fair, the melodies of the Jayadeva Ashtapadis as sung by BMK are composed by BMK himself, so, in a way, they are his compositions. I do agree about the clear half-baked understanding between Hindustani and Carnatic.
BMK is not the Composer. BMK set the tune to the lyrics. Composer/Vaggeyakara sets composition of both lyrics and the music.