Benfica vs. Barcelona recap: Is this the ‘new normal’ at the Camp Nou? | ESPN FC | Champions League
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ค. 2024
- The ESPN FC panel are not surprised by another dismal performance from Barcelona, losing to Benfica 3-0 in the UEFA Champions League. Julien Laurens joins the show to break down the game as well as the latest on Ronald Koeman’s status with the club following another high-profile, embarrassing defeat.
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This was expected, benfica are a top 3 team in Shaka's power rankings.
Shaka is secretly a genius.
this needs more likes
Truuee
@@spotted9106 all jokes aside I think he actually has a high iq
Because Benfica have 100 portuguese league record,and then they did this 😂😂😂😂
The assistant coach has shown himself to be more competent than ronald mcdonald
Lol
Ronald mcdonald 😂😂🤣
🤣
Pure facts
@@hungry6646 Leave our Club please😂😂😭😭
Apparently the last time Barcelona lost their first 2 champions league games, Guardiola was captain 😂
🤣🤣🤣
Really?
Yeah it is the worst start for Barcelona in 21 years.
Fruadiola
Was that before or after he was caught doping?
Jules gets so passionate when he talks about barcelona. If he wasn't french, i think he would be a hardcore barca supporter
Yeah a clown supporting clowns.
@@harshvaghela47 get a life
@@harshvaghela47
Nobody mentioned about ya family here
@@rajanisreekumar7262 LOL
@@harshvaghela47 talking about yer relatives or something?
Can we give Benfica some credit?? They had plenty of good chances...
Ikr
sad, they don't even talk about Benfica
These are some of the worst pundits out there.
Benfica was great though👌just Barca made them look magnificently 👍 brilliant.
And people said this was Messi's comfort zone....this is the team Messi been dealing with since 2017 and how he managed to win something is mental
Yup….
x1 La Liga
x2 Copa Del Rey
x1 Ballon Dor
With muppets and injuries oh and Barto fk lol
That's how you ruin a beautiful club. Play around one player and when he leaves , all is hopeless .
@@AnupKandelit’s not Messi’s fault that everyone else sucks
@@chiendao1068 yeah 😂
And each year, his challenge was getting harder with bad club management around him. He was the face of Barca, everyone would blame him for each fail campaigns in UCL. Clearly the victim of his own greatness
Pls don’t sack Koeman I need my daily dose of comedy
Lmao
@Eren Jaeger Ole won today m8 dunno what you're on
Van Gaal will return
@@lordukiyo6175 We won but still play awful and predictable while having a top5 squad in football
😺
It´s surprising that these guys didn´t even mention Benfica´s great performance, only Barça´s terrible one.
True, people is just talking about Barcelona defeat and not about benfica win
I guess now people realise messi value in true sense. Man had 30+ goals with that dead squad.
It’s not just about the goals.
Almost all the others score/assist, thanks to Messi.
With Messi 8-2 sooooo no, he wouldn’t have made a difference.
@@bear2507 Your opinion doesn’t matter . The guy is legend .
@@bear2507 yeah '8' -2, not his fault that his teammates can't defend
@@bear2507 Messi was the one who made the key pass that led to the equaliser against Bayern at 1-1. But the team as a unit was broken and couldn’t hold out against the immense pressure by bayern throughout the game.
Since there was no words or comments from the ESPN pundits about Benfica, I suppose there was only Barcelona on the pitch scoring against themselves…
I'm so glad that Messi left. He should have left when Iniesta left. At least he doesn't have to suffer soul sucking lost like this. Benfica just ran through them. At this point, Dynamo Kiev is fancying their chances too, like, ooh, if we beat Barca, and somehow draw or beat Benfica next time, we may have a chance.
With Messi Koeman would be sacked in no time , he is absolute disgrace , looking at the lineup 🤦🤦
Not even messi can get this squad out of this mess ....no all talented player can either.....the defence plays like u12s and everyone is lazy....barca couldn't even do like 7 or 8passes inna row sucks....messi deserves psg and the happiness he's experiencing rn
I'm sure it still hurts Messi to see Barca play and lose like this
@@addir9502 I'm sure he's happy to not be a part of this ....messi loves to win and this barca team would destroy him altogether
@@dantekratos5395 i wouldnt say he's happy, but he must be annoyed that he left in a bad time and seeing the situation of his club. But at the same time, he's happy to be winning more at PSG.
Not even a single word on how well Benfica played? Come on… Did Jules even watch the match? He doesn’t know why Koeman took Piqué out?! Piqué was on the verge of being sent off still on the 1st half… Lousy journalism, once again
Jules's clueless about a lot of things but PSG
Also not a single word on how bad De Jong is and has been this year? Pedri who keeps passing backwards in every single game?Depay who's absolutely clueless in attack? This Barca side looks very worrying. Only good player I'd take from this Barca team is Araujo.
Should have been booked a second time really
@@lipecunha5833 that’s absolutely why he got subbed off. Koeman acted before VAR did
They weren't good tbh, Barca is a terrible team with no tactics. PSV who hasn't won an Eredivisie since 5 or 6 years almost beat Benfica.
At least give the credit to SL Benfica !!! They have a good team
Koeman has never been a good coach and he will never be, this man almost got Valencia relegated with a team feel with great talent, the is no single improvements since this man took this team we have been declining bit by bit.
And sacked by everton cmiiw
@@gentasepriandi999 He has been sacked everywhere
and funny enough he was sacked by Benfica too
Maybe he should change the way he approach these players. I mean it's super disgusting putting frenkie as defenders, while you got clement lenglet and umtiti on the bench. I mean, that's a big unrespected act for these defenders. He even started eric garcia, who barely even play last season
@@MartimCorreia10 Did a great work in the champions in that year
Imagine telling a Barca fan 7 years ago when they were dominating everything with Neymar, Messi and Suarez up front that today they'd have Braithwait and Luuk De Jong up front while being 1.1 billion in debt , 6th in the league and bottom of their Champions League group 😂😂🤣🤣
Hahahahah
As an AC Milan fan, I can feel their pain. But it's not funny though
tbh i expected that 4 years ago when neymar left to psg and bartomeu signed average players
@@SempreMilan439 actually Milan have a better team especially with the new gk + bennacer + tonali + diaz + leao + theo + tomori....i can see them fighting for serie a this season
@@SempreMilan439 appreciated ❤🙏
Imagine Barca being relegated 😂 koeman will still say “have patience”
Do not forget REALISM
Thank God its la liga n not premier league.
Barça would get relegated if they were in the premier league tbh
@@afonsovaz4186 nah
They'd be mid table but not relegated
This is exactly how we imagined Barca would be without Messi.
We're most likely going to be playing the Europa league this season. This is so sad as a Barca fan...
Not if you are 4th in the group..
If u build a team around 1 player this is supposed to happen.
Atlest barca can win the europa league,even that is a strech.
Barca without Messi is Arsenal
@@GentleGazer162 arsenal are better than them now .
As a FCPorto fan... Congrats Benfica. At least some Portuguese team did well in this stage of the CL.
Barcelona travelling to Eastern European countries to play Thursday night football. HERE WE GO😂😂😂
Good they deserve it
Still 4 games left you clown 🤡🤡🤡
Yeah, they haven't gotten a single shot on goal so far in UCL, last in their group and last time Benfica won over Barca was back in 1961 😂😂😂😂
@@xefecktgaming2024 There’s 4 games left, you deluded kid
Their next game is in Kiev... Pretty sure that's eastern europe
Put some respect on my Benfica, undefeated in all competitions to start the year. Full of international players at all positions. They were very unlucky to not score against Dynamo.
Carrega Benfica!!
Let’s see how long that lasts, Bayern is visiting in 2 weeks 👀
CARRRREGA! The pundits need to show more respect for how we played.
We will see against lewandowski 😎😎😎
Bayern are coming for you
@@monishamoni7773
Good, I want Bayern
I want them all, Chelsea, United, Real, Atleti, Man City…it doesn’t matter!
I especially want PSG, that way our fans can outnumber their plastic fans just like we did the last time we played them in Paris.
Luuk de Jong couldn't hit a house while standing in the living room. He is woeful.
Through the window
Koeman insists on putting on players that dont perform. look at the squad we had vs Levante compared to now. What does roberto do that mingueza doesnt double him in?? hes only playing because of that psg goal
He prefers whom hi likes
i thought my glasses were dirty and was in shock seeing 3-0 but to benfica. well played jeez
The fact that Koeman made De jong and Pedri untouchable with most of their passes sideways and back passes is disgusting not giving them competition when there is puig, Nico and Gavi. Pique, Roberto, Luke de jong shouldn't be anywhere near the starting line up. Laporta has to decide between sacking Koeman or playing in Europa
Stop talking nonsense against BENIFICA koeman USED de Jong as a cb even In first half he was the only one who created two clear cut CHNACEs for lukk de Jong I agree with you on Pedri point
Did u watch the match? Pedri actually created the biggest chance for Barca in the first half, but we have this dead wood called Luuk de Jong who couldn't even pass it in the goal
@@ShkodranMaliqi and because of him we CONCEDED a goal in just 2 minutes
@@eazee9832 Garcia shouldn’t have let Nunez just fly by him so easily though, he was a cause but not the direct cause. Pedri still played well nonetheless.
@@mixfcb1086 I don't think he played well
At least with them being at the bottom of the group, they'll avoid playing for Europa League, it's better that way for fans i guess 🤣
Yes excatly it's better to sit at bottom of the table Rather than playing in Thursday night football I hope we lost against Dynamo kyiv
I think its time to this club and their fans to get used to thursday football nights. As you can see no money no fun. This club isnt in the low bottom yet.
Its amazing how these guys change their tune..after the first game of the season they were saying they don't need Messi blah blah blah
Last year lost 8-2 with Messi against Bayern
@@S20L8 and?
Barcelona has score 2 UCL this year that aslo both Messi score, really without Messi Barcelona has facing struggling now 🥺🥺
If Puke de Youg can be professional footballer,than so can your dog
They haven’t even had a shot on target yet in Champions League
Even with Messi they got constantly battered.
@@erickarias3309 Messi won them the copa delrey, and atleast earned them the 3rd position last year. Without his goals and assist, Barca would be playing Europa league today
@@erickarias3309 Tat battering was atleast against very strong teams like Bayern or PSG or Liverpool. But Benfica?? Or even playing so poor in the league?? In fact messi made this team compete for something for the past 3 seasons post Iniesta's departure and even managed to win a league, copa del rey and a Champions league semi final (which we could have won had our defense stepped up that day).
"Thanks to me, this club has a future" - Famous last words
This is no surprise. Benfica is on great form this season and they're actually unbeaten. Had Luke taken those two glaring chances, we'd be having a different conversation. Same goes all the way back to Granada and Cadiz. Both Luke and Depay missed sitters from 2 yards out. I can't put that down to the coach. Koeman however has to answer to the lineup he started this game with and the substitutions made. When you have 3/4 of your attaching players injured, this will tend to happen against decent teams.
Get ready for Barcelona turning up at the Olympic Stadium on Thursday nights 😂
🤣🤣🤣
@@Kyle_Charles 3-1
Loser Barcelona hater 🤣🤣🤣
@@Kyle_Charles u couldnt even win europa league against villareal what r u laughing about
@@idontmakevideos1356 Barca in the bin is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen
Imagine if barca play like this against Bayern in Allianz Arena 😂 = 10:0 ✅
Barca in Arsenal mode
The scary thing is that if Koeman is still here, that is highly realistic.
@@jeanrose1627 Barca in Barca mode - Arsenal never bankrupted themselves and are beginning to turn a corner
Barsenal
Arselona
@King Darwin there's still 4 games left
I don’t think Xavi can save this, they have real serious issues from top to bottom
Yupp facts
What're they going to pay Xavi with? Free box seats and a beer on the house??
@@jwilliams6286 lmao might just be the plan 😄
@Donquixote Doflamingo he flopped at Sevilla, I was bemused
Nothing that serious. Just Koeman who doesn’t have a clue
Seems like Jules missed that Pique was taken off because his timing was incredibly bad today and would've had gotten a red card otherwise.
he should´ve gotten a second yellow tbf , ref was kind to him
Pique been finished since 2017
@@greatestanalyser2354 Absolutely right
Pique and Sergio b has passed their prime!
@@greatestanalyser2354 2014-2015 really, he only lives off Puyol, Dani Alves, & Rafa Marquez success.. plus Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets
Notice the 1 game koeman wasn't there in the last 5 games, they win lol
Messi's managed avg of 50+ GA with this team
Let that sink in
Koeman is our problem. His tactics is absolutely a disgrace.
not koeman fault....you got average clown players
You mean Memphis Depay and Luke De Jong Koeman shoved them down our throats. Look a new good coach can turn things around with his approach with this players we have. We just need the right Captain to steer this ship steady.
@@sahadsanadsaliha there's only 4 players who deserve to wear barca t-shirt Right now.. araujo + fati + de jong b+ depay
@@sahadsanadsaliha Agreed. But we can start molding out super stars with a better coach with a good structure plan.
barca lost simply because Benfia played better, this doesnt even need a 10 min discussion video
Yeah sad Barcelona lost against a team that has been in 11! European finals. It's not like real Madrid who lost against Sheriff. Respect!
Real dominated the game .they were unlucky better than Barcelona
Unlike Barca, Real will easily advance. They won their 1st game. And are top of la liga with world class players at most positions with practically no immediate debt.
@@hamzachikani7915 finally someone to knock some senses into these barca fans
CARREGA BENFICAAAAAAAA ❤️💪
Barcelona officially are the new AC Milan, the new Arsenal.
It’s worse; this is a club that put all their eggs in one basket (Messi), and now he’s gone.
Arsenal had a lot going on for over a decade that could’ve been avoided if a few things were changed earlier.
At least Arsenal have money to spend.
@@erickarias3309 so They Just wasting their money
@@eazee9832 probably, but not like Barcelona.
Arsenal and Milan are far better than Barca, but I get ur point
Barcelona have more red cards than wins this season so far
great observation
Eric dighead garcia
Isn’t this the same pundits who said , maybe Barcelona are less predictable without Messi
This barca doesn't deserve Messi.
I'm gonna stop crying about him leaving
Just sack Koeman. What a terrible coach.
What a terrible team as well
@@danielb4468 good team, terrible way of lining them up. There’s talent everywhere in this Barcelona team but koeman has no idea of how to put it together
The coach should leave... we have a better player then Benfica..
@@gokulkanna9180 how can you say there’s not a good team ? There’s many good players there. There’s only 2 managers in recent years who have failed terribly at Barca and that’s Setien and Koeman, valverde at least won trophies
@@stormgamezzhd1343 The players are horrible tbh they're young boys. Why on earth will suarez and greizmann be sold?
The only beautiful thing about this situation is that Leo won't be blamed for this. The last few years Barcelona hasn't had a good enough team to compete in the UCL, the most competitive we have been the last 4 seasons was 2019. Every UCL loss was blamed on Messi when failing to realize that Messi has always been the club's best performer in the UCL and every other competition.
Imagine the super league was created then benfica or bayern munich will be left out and unfairly out to compete in Europe
Don't forget Sheriff from Moldova!
Bayern's chairman was one of the first to form idea of super league...the only
reason they didn't participate is 50+ rule in Germany.
@@sutapasbhattacharya9471 and Young Boys.
@Donquixote Doflamingo they officially stated to not being part of esl
Jules farting at 4:05 hahahahahaha 🤣
Its now more obvious than ever how hard messi was carrying barca the last 3 years
Remember barcelona only have 8 Shot in 90 minutes game, With Only 1 On target🤦🤦🤦
That introduction tho!! Dan is so casually savage🤣
Messis playmaking, goal contributions, chance creation saved this team for atleast 5 yrs, now all the small teams will come after barca
Even Umtiti and Lenglet are better than Eric Garcia
Yup, the only reason he starts over them is because he’s younger.
I still can't understand why Samuel umtiti can't get a chance back in the first team.... I remember one point he was the man along side Gerard Pique and company in the back four.
Barcelona could concider themselves lucky if they qualify for Europa League, they don't deserve to be in UCL for sure
No Messi No party for Barca, accept it Barca fans😂🤫
When I saw the starting line-up I knew it was late, where to start, oh boy!
1. Up front we all know there is 0 chemistry between Luuk and Memphis, Memphis drops deep and when he turns he has nobody to link up with because Luuk is not a link up player to triangulate and play 1,2s
2. The midfield, Pedri and De Jong were actually providing penetration and doing well until the most ridiculous tactical change ever when Koeman dropped De Jong to defence instead of sending on Mingueza who is a roving, hard workng defender like Araujo. After this change Benfica took control of the match
3. Sergi Roberto wide on the wing (please look at Kevin's analysis of his horror shows out wide last season) does not work, he is no longer quick and injuries have slowed him down
4. The formation as Kevin has said does not work, the rotation of players and not picking players that fit the system and settling on the ideal starting 11 has cost us.
If you're a manager of a big club having a bad run, Jules is the last person you want to watch speak about your job.
Someone said it!!! The Substitutions are just wow!!!
This is what happens when you go from Messi to Memphis. Depay failed at Old Trafford for a reason. That reason being he wasn't good enough. Whether you have Koeman incharge, or an elite manager at the Nou Camp, Barcelona are a Mid-Table club now, not because of the manager, but because of the qualty of players they possess.
@Donquixote Doflamingo These players aren't good enough mate. A mixture of overhyped and ageing players.
@Donquixote Doflamingo I agree mate, but a player has got to have it in their locker and have potential to shift up the gears. A good coach is not going to turn Memphis Depay into a lethal 9. He's just not good enough.
Imagine what a coach like Xavi could do with that Barca midfield, players like De Jong, Pedri, Puig, Gavi, Nico can all thrive
I don’t think xavi is ready yet!! Idk my opinion he needs more time. If xavi comes in and Barca haven’t improved I don’t want people targeting xavi you know!! Idk honestly but Barca financials and bad cost off players is costing us big time!!
@@uliseslopezvega3764 pep was not ready yet became a legend
@@christianaugustus8610 Pep was already an amazing coach xavi just retired and needs to manage smaller clubs to get used to coaching if he comes to barca now it will be worse than this
That's what Juve imagined with Pirlo, another legendary midfielder.
João Mário played like how you would expect Frankie De Jong to play. Completely dominated the midfield.
When ronaldo left madrid suffered for a season but now when messi left Barcelona will suffer for a decade at least.
They probably were confused looking for messi since that Jersey is from last season....but benfica celebrating like it's a final and playing against prime barcelona ....this barcelona team is the worst ever ...i mean when was the last time we ever got a red card?
Nah if a team normally outside the top 5 leagues smacks one of the big boys they get to celebrate
@@joshuaguevara1309 Barcelona are not big boys anymore....for now at least
with Koeman they're as good as a mid table team
@@wallahhabibiiii they finished top 4 the most recent season , they have a game in hand to be 3 points behind first ….. they are weaker then they have been obviously the are going through a difficult period doesn’t mean they aren’t considered a top club
THE ICING ON A PERFECT NIGHT 🤣
Same icing I left on your mom's chin
@@nancyramos6872 ☠️☠️☠️☠️☠️
United fan, Definitely United fan
@@nancyramos6872 not fair🤣
Barcelona were pathetic. Slow ball movement, horrible decisions in the final third and disgusting defensive decisions, I’ve talked about this in my match reaction in more depth but horrible situation for Barcelona fans 😪
I totally get what you’re saying with the title but this wasn’t even at the camp nou
Koeman selection of players is absolute joke , sometimes I wonder is he deliberately trying to get sacked
Eric Garcia has had an awful start to the season, his positioning hurts him bc he tries to get back by using his hands and fouling smh doesn’t help that Koeman can’t set up his team properly. Bye Koeman 👋
it sucks to watch because koeman insists on playing him in big games all the time... like why not play a back 2 with araujo and pique??
@Coutinho The Goat of course they are garcia was basically 6th choice cb at man city (even fernandinho and rodri were ahead of him )
No height
No pace
No physicality
@@hossein.g5685 yep, I’m starting to see that sadly
TBH, The only big difference in Barca’s squad this season is they’ve let Messi go. Griezman and Depay will cancel out each other.
The difference one man makes to a team who is still full of stars is unthinkable. They lost their best player, their captain, their talisman.
Their morale is battered. You can see it in their eyes, the once great busquests have no spirit left in him. Pique, though deteriorated as a player is playing just for the sake of it.
The club is crumbling inside and out, on and off the pitch.
Bartomeu was the best Real Madrid President.
It looks like Barca players want to get Koeman sacked, every time he is on the touchline they loose. Last weekend he wasn't and they won.
Losing to Bayern is one thing, but losing to Benefica 3-0, it is a new low for Barca.
Real Madrid lose to sheriff but they will at least make the round of 16 and lose to psg, man city , cheslea or Liverpool
Imagine buying Puke De Old,a striker not good enough for sevilla.....
What was Ronald Mcdonald thinking?
Benefica is solid team
Benfica
What? Be honest, do you know anything about Benfica? You know, the same club that had Ruben Dias, Jan Oblak , Ederson , Jimenez , Lindelof , Renato , Felix , Guedes , Matic, Rodrigo , and countless others. How many players need to come through Benfica, in order for you to actually give them credit?
What a masterclass starting lineup from RK. This guy is simple a genius.
I thought ansu fati was suppose to be the turn around lol….
Respect Benfica
Please… Please… Please… PUT SOME RESPECT ON THE GREAT BENFICA!!!
I love Shaka! "... a chance I had a good chance of finishing off myself!". Hahaha
Good for Jules for expressing the kind of disgust and incredulity this situation deserves.
Lol thought it was all Griezmann’s fault, now you have two number 9’s and zero shots on goal 🤫
Messi and Griezmann both scored their first goal yesterday in CL 🔥
Oi, you people forgot to mention that who won was Sport Lisboa e Benfica. Slb. Respect. And respect to Barça. 🇵🇹
Love watching Jules get so angry! Totally goes Hulk mode when talking about Barca these days 😂😂
Sergio Roberto, Luke de Jong, Busquets, Pique, along with Koeman what can u expect???
Messi carried this team and is still candidate for balloon door
Europa League Is Coming for Barca 😂
Messi left Barcelona and now they look like arsenal.
Even Arsenal play better than that
U have an ordinary manager, u get ordinary results
Barca doesn’t deserve to be in champions league
Absolutely not😂
Ronaldo 🐐
@espnfc, guys you got the stats wrong, Barca had no shots on target man.
Not even a word about Benfica...were is the respect?they know nothing about football history,Sl Benfica was one of the best teams in the world in the past,and still is a giant worlwide with millions fans...
This is ESPNFC my friend, you’re expecting a little too much from them
Goals so far in the UCL:
Barcelona 0
Alex Sandro 1.
The legendary battle is just getting started.
EUSÉBIO THE BLACK PHANTER
THANK YOU FOR 2 CHAMPIONS LEAGUE GOAT ❤️🦅
Eusébio only won one Cup for Benfica...
@@NAMS79 eusebio won 2 consecutive champions league with benfica...
@@afonsovaz4186 no he hasn't... Benfica Won 2 consecutive Titles Eusébio only won the Second... and was ( if Im am not mistaken) in 3 more Europeans Champions Cup Fnals.
What was Jules laughing at in the beginning of the question
It’s crazy to me that Luke De Jong and Chucky lo an played at PSV at the same time and it’s De Jong that now plays for Barca
I will not be surprised if they can't even make it to Europa league.. Looks like they will finish bottom of the group
Honestly would be better to be eliminated clean rather than facing the shame of playing Europa league
Koeman: luuk de jong is more dangerous than neymar in the box. 😂😂😂
Neymar can’t finish
@@joshuaguevara1309 and Luuk de Jong can ?
@@stormgamezzhd1343 you want me to tell you ?
@@joshuaguevara1309 trust me I already know he can’t. Braithwaite or some La Masia kid in Juvenil B are better than Luuk De Jong
@@stormgamezzhd1343 lmao the REAL quote was that Luuk de jong is better then Neymar at heading crosses which is a fact if you think otherwise you watching the wrong sport.
I wasn’t even talking about luuk de jong I was just saying Neymar can’t finish . Neymar is constantly through on goal and fluffs his chances . That’s what I’m talking about I wasn’t even talking about luuk de jong
But if you want me to answer your question he’s not a good finisher either
Where tf are the timestamps
Trust ESPN to completely ignore the winning team who played a near perfect game but focus on how bad the losing team was. Give credit to Benfica. Barcelona are in a crisis but Benfica played REALLY well.
This will be the new normal for us, until Ronald McDonald gets sacked
No manager czn fix that team. It's filled with mediocre players
This team has been sliding for years now. People blamed Valverde, then Setien, and now Koeman. The problem runs deeper than the coach.
This squad needs some time to have most of its players at their prime
@@wallahhabibiiii mediocre players don't turn into world beaters. Alot of players just aren't good enough for certain teams