At the end of this episode, we mentioned many new things are coming up for the Extra Credits channel. Well, we got a little more specific here - and there will be details soon! Extra Credits Announces New Shows!
hey, can you replace that family guy footage in the beginning? there's absolutely no reason why anyone should be subjected to an in-progress, fully animated bloody assault when watching a video about collectible games. and pairing it with the word "abused" just makes it worse. that sort of thing could serious trigger assault survivors. i barely retained most of the information in your video because i was so stressed by that moment.
Mauddibism She's got a pretentious video with vaginas and penises lit by flash lights, with a tedious poem being read over it, for ten freaking minutes.
The draft aspect of CCGs reminds me of Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. You make the best with what you're dealt. Adds a whole new realm of experience to the main story of the game for those people who find it easy.
This video just made me remember how much I love Magic. I don't "play" Magic but sometimes at conventions its so much fun to just sit down and do a draft. I usually just give the cards to my friends when I'm done but its still so rewarding because of the "puzzle" aspect as mentioned in this video.
Yeah. If I were to get back into Magic it would be a draft tourney. Aside from that I feel the game has gotten way too bloated and convoluted lately. I feel they they add new mechanics and rule changes with little regard of what came before it. I want to smack the guy who thought the "Proliferate" ability was a good idea. :/
Unfortunately, every TCG/CCG I've come across has had its competitive scene distilled down to about 5 different decks, tops. The Pokémon TCG had this hit the hardest: During the 3rd generation, there were literally dozens of possible combinations, because every card designed Rare or above (sometimes even Uncommon) had competitive potential, as it became strongly exceptions-based. That is, every set had at least 8 or so cards that allowed you to break one or more rules or was immune to one or more rules and were designed in conjunction with each other. By the 5th generation, this philosophy was tossed out the window by making rarer cards inherently and obviously more powerful and brought in the new Level X Pokémon, who were so powerful, Mewtwo in particular, that for a brief moment only Mewtwo decks could win tournaments. It's up to around...three or so now, but the creativity in card design has become a shell of its former self. The focus was now based on high HP, high damage, rather than putting up barriers or overcoming drawbacks like 3rd- and 4th-generation play was like. (I haven't played the TCG at all over the 6th generation though.) Nintendo does a pretty good job of making cards available though--if a card catches on, it becomes a promo card available in box sets or tins at every toy store and department store. This is something I see few other TCG makers do (only Yu-Gi-Oh! and Naruto so far).
Superb! You guys usually make so many references to Magic: The Gathering that it's great to see an episode focused on it. I think (atleast from a game design perspective) there's A LOT to learn from MTG (I highly recommend checking Mark Rosewater's column on design of the game at the MTG page).
To go a bit off topic, I think this random thing is one things why roguelikes and roguelites are popular: you can't always have things go in your way and you have to work with what you have (games like Atom Zombie Smasher come to mind). (the other part is having tension of losing everything when you die but not having "I have to do it all over again" feeling.)
Could you guys do an episode on mmo end games? Honestly I've never once made it to the end game of an memo because the beginning and middle game are so ignored, and feel like a huge grind to get to the "good stuff" that everyone talks about at the end of the game, and I'm curious as to what the thought process there is... Why only add content to interest people heavily invested into the game, and not content to help grab the interest of new players with 60 levels of fetchquests and kill quests between them and 'fun'? Thanks :3
I think one of the topics should be that why are the most well known MMO games RPGs. I thought Bombermine is a MMO and there's very little bland grinding as you have to battle with others all the time to get something.
It's not that WoW did nothing for players outside of the max-level section of the game (adding new races, all with their unique starting areas, dungeons, and quests provided a lot more options for first time players, people who like making multiple characters, or even people who had max-level characters, lowering cost restrictions for faster movement from place to place). Personally the one time I got to max level and tried some raids, I just went back to leveling a new character because it was a lot more fun. End-level characters tended to get the most focus or content (typically an additional 10 levels added to the cap, and then a new race to try out) because they had already explored most of the content (several times, mind you, as by that point they probably have several max-level characters) and if they have nothing else to explore or do, they would have no reason to play anymore. Boss design in higher-level raids starts to become more unique than "this guy has a lot of health, hit him hard" or "he hits hard, so don't pull aggro from the tank", where there might be special mode changes, positioning problems, additional mobs to control, or straight-up puzzles, which can make for some interesting fights. Regarding why the more interesting fights could not be integrated into lower-level bosses... My guesses would be is that 1. the early dungeons were designed as part of a learning experience, and show off certain mechanics (sleep + other crowd control), and have them get used to working in a group of other players, 2. they needed ways to challenge max-level players that was not stat-oriented (as max level characters typically pick up better and better gear), to challenge their abilities given that they already know the game very well, because the last thing you want is to give them the same-old-same-old fights that they've been doing for 60+ levels. $0.02
I'm surprised so few games use this collectable mechanic outside of TCG. There's a lot of genres that could use a collectible mechanic to put an interesting spin on competitive multiplayer.
I really preffered the old intro. It uses the "photographs" well to both introduce you to the team and welcome you into the episode, as well as showing "we've got this much of awesome stuff we've done in the past". All in all, it just felt more... homely. The new intro is, in my opinion, too clinical. The new outro and the green-colored look in general are cool though - and as always the episode itself is pure quality :)
I agree completely :) I like the new ending, and the new opening's not bad, but I do prefer the previous opening with all the photographs. Perhaps if they could combine them, with that green background behind the photographs and maybe where it shows the logo, have the game with the gears thing appear that moves away to reveal the logo. The best of both worlds :D
Hey, I'm making a TCG at home (just for my friends and I) and this video really helped me by indirectly telling me what and what not to do. Keep it up!
This is my favorite channel on youtube, I hope my laziness wears off soon because I wanna make games, also, do you have any videos about character design or creation (original characters, not in-game)
@2:44- is something that actually does happen in Magic the Gathering. It is what we call "strictly better" cards. They don't get printed all the time, but it does happen. Also, this is part of Power Creep, a topic from another video. In MtG's history, for around 15 years, Savannah Lions was a staple rare as a 2/1 for a single white mana, where now a 2/1 for one has been relegated to uncommon status, and with features that are more useful than the original Lion. For example, a solider creature type that benefits from solider tribal effects, or in black a zombie that can be replayed over and over again from the graveyard and also benefits from zombie tribal effects. I don't think this is always a bad thing. in the case of Magic, creatures were underpowered for a long time, and for around a decade, the best decks played little to no creatures in them. That is certainly changing and it better for the overall health of the game.
Wow! Thx for putting up subtitles in Portuguese! Even though I don't need them that much, I'm sure there's plenty of Portuguese and Brazilian people out there looking for the kind of content you guys make.
Ever thought about as show over "Making rules that don't Explode", making mechanics that don't get the player stuck or cause a logical explosion is a unique challenge for those interested in the technical aspect.
I like the new intro and outro, very cool guys. I do appreciate you guys going back into this since I play Heroclix and a lot of what you said in the old episodes rang so true, at the same time the new ideas you presented on here are why I love Heroclix, it's ever evolving and ever changing and becoming more accommodating for the newer players though you do wind up seeing a lot of the "well this rare piece is the one that is going to win it for everyone, can't wait to see 100 of them at the next tournament"
I'm not sure if you've already done this, but you could talk about art style/design in games and trading cards. Art can influence the people who buy a game, and also sometimes how a game is played. If you have, then sorry for not noticing.
I preferred the old intro song. It had more of a lead-in. As it currently stands, it just plops the viewer down into the middle of the track, and it's a bit disconcerting.
Hey nice thumbnails... also... I noticed nobody said anything about duel masters... that was the ultimate collectible card game when I was young... is it really that obscure or it's just part of a different category...?
Man it's because it came out in the west when Yugioh was still huge. When I first heard of Duel Masters I thought it was just some dumb knock off and didn't give it a chance but later I found out otherwise and when I saw the rules and especially the resource management it bummed me out that it never took off. So sad that it came down to bad timing.
Duel Masters is Magic: Lite, made by WotC for a younger audience and a different market. It did okay, then horrible in America, but well in Japan. They're trying again here with Kaijudo, which uses the exact same play-style, cards, and mechanics with some small changes.
i hope that next month or so THE newest bestest innovation in collectible gaming occurs so you HAVE to make another episode on the subject. that would be so fun :D
This is a perfect explanation why Yugioh should STOP MAKING NEW DECKS!! you introduce 10 cool looking ones one year and then forget about them after a while and make obviously more powerful ones
More like Yugioh has a problem with "A outclasses B at the same cost", compounded with unchecked power creep. The concept of archetypes in Yugioh also terribly restrict what you can do with your cards.
Kai Li Kwoh I actually thought the opposite about Yu-Gi-Oh. Yeah a good portion is all about the points but there are a fair amount of cards I remember that focused on creatures with lower points. Traps that made those creatures useful as bait so that you can overwhelm your opponent with a spell or get rid of that one problem monster with a trap.
Take the Ice Barrier as an example, it is a REALLY interesting style that makes you want to have all the archetype in a single deck. However the synchros weren't exclusive to its deck and people started abusing it. As the power creep uses swarsm and swarms, Ice Barriers become really limited on what they can do since the rest of the deck depends on another card, and konami never fixed it.
It's like every strength mentioned is the same for RPG's: witholding skills untill you've learned to use them before introducing more - of course, a lot of RPG's have just used the system as way to raise numbers.
When you brought up bad games making the cards all about the numbers, it reminded me of an old TCG called Chaotic. The main gimmick was that no two cards of the same creature were exactly the same, making stats like health and various forms of resistance different on each card. But my 10-11 year old self didn't to realize that meant, more often than not, the stats would turn out low, even if that specific monster relies on a certain stat for abilities. Every time I found a card I wanted in a booster pack, I couldn't use it because an important stat was too low.
It was a neat idea, they just executed it poorly. It felt absolutely terrible opening that super rare guy you wanted, and then realizing his stats were garbage. I think having the same character in multiple rarities, while assigning better stats to the rarer ones would have been better. It gets the feel of having a character with variable stats across, and you don't feel ripped off when you open a junk version of an otherwise sweet card. (People already see commons as disposable for most games anyhow. Doing it this way means that, while they wouldn't be optimal for play, you COULD play with your favorite characters on a budget, which is very kid friendly.) Also, I think some cards were exclusive to starter decks, (both in the fixed and random portions therein) but they didn't make that apparent in their advertising of the product. That being said, it's a shame it went belly-up because of litigation with 4kids, and not because of a lack of interest in the game. Chaotic pioneered physical/digital collecting, and I don't believe any other card game has attempted sharing your physical and digital collections on a 1-1 ratio.
I started playing Magic when Unlimited and Revised Editions were out. I still remember my friends playing with Beta and Alpha cards. I, also, remember buying a whole box of Ice Age boosters when I was 11. That was super fun to open.
ignaeon During the Urza block is when I quit playing. It was getting to be too much - in both money and cards. I wish WotC would have stopped making new sets at that point.
HiDefJesus Well, sounds like you quit when I started playing MTG, bro. Also, to make players that had to deal with the uber-powerful black devotion deck during Theros, Sanguine Bond + "Gary" (Grey Merchant of Asphodel).
Extra Credits, could you please make an episode or a blog/forum post about the difference (and benefits and faults) of CCG/TCG and LCG (the so-called "living card game" format that is being pushed by Fantasy Flight Games)?
Nice Intro there but I also miss those photo of the previous Episode, it sort of remind me how far this show have been going And good ep as always thank you for making such an informative show
There is also something I notice that happens in videogames and TV shows, which is that writers focus on the main reasons why a character is memorable, and take away the other traits that make the character... well... themselves. Basically, look to any long running TV show, or videogame with the same main character or the same supporting characters and you can see traits being lost. You also can see traits they are known for like, anger, sadness, sarcasm, really anything well known about them being emphasized. I know this has nothing to do with trading cards, or at least directly like TV shows or video games, but I just wanted to get that out. :)
I'd like to suggest an example of a collectible game that did some things very RIGHT. Puzzle and Dragons is an iOS and Android app that is an immensely deep, steadily growing, easy to learn but hard to master collective monster game made in Japan but underrepresented in the U.S. Imagine Pokemon, but in order for the monsters to attack you have to match orbs as if in Bejeweled. I suggest you play it, get to know it, look online for some late-game content, and decide if it is worth mentioning.
Living card games are distributed in core sets, packs and expansions that are non-random. Every one has the same cards. The packs and expansions have a play set of new each card.
ToolTime Yeah I read that but I still didn't get it much. Like... every expansion has decks enough for more than one player or they're simply a more advanced version of a a complete deck?
Well I can mostly only speak for Game Of Thrones and Netrunner (the two LCGs I play) But it usually goes like this: 1 core set will let you build 2-4 decks for basic casual play (competitive play usually requires owning more than one core set) Packs are released monthly and have 20 unique cards, 3 copies each for a full play set (60 total). The packs typically have 2 new cards for each faction, plus neutral cards. Deluxe expansions come out maybe twice a year and usually focus on one or two factions. For example, next week the Lions of Casterly Rock expansion comes out for AGOT. About half of it is Lannister cards (hence the name) with 2 new cards for each of the 7 other factions and 14 neutral cards (3 copies of each unique card, 156 cards total). To compare it to Magic, imagine that instead of releasing a new set of 200-ish cards every 6 months or so in randomized boosters, that the set was release 20 cards at a time once a month over that time period and that the packs were non-randomized and you got a full play set of every card. Imagine also that there is typically little in the way of filler in the packs ( I will spare you the details of card design and mechanics and how this effects LCG packs, and also spare you a rant about magic's recycling). With an LCG, there are no mythic rares you have to spend $200 for a playset of. That being said, LCG's do cost money to play competitively, so it is in a sense "pay to win". Its highly unlikely you are going to win Worlds with only one core set (and there is no shortage of people on forums whinging about needing to buy more than one core to play competitively). The difference is in what you are getting for your money. I have personally spent enough on AGOT and Netrunner to buy a tournament quality Magic deck or two. But that's it: 1-2 decks. Instead I own a playset of every card in both games. In terms of card pool, I am on the same playing field as the best players. It's the randomizing of cards and the artificial scarcity in CCGs/TCGs that create a secondary market with ridiculous prices for the best cards. They do it that way to sell more boosters, but most competitive players of CCGs realize that is a suckers game and just buy singles.
This episode really felt like a "why magic the gather is such a well made ccg" episode not complaining as I used to play a lot of magic the gathering and still do for work purposes. It is a fabulously designed game and a lot of thought goes into how to grow and expand the game. For anyone that is interested in how they do their design Id really suggest reading some of Mark Rosewater's articles on the mtg website where he delves into magic design it's really insightful. One game that looks to be doing this well too is hearthstone in that it allows players playing for free to have just as good a time and build just as good a deck as someone that dumps loads of cash into it
Another game that is really cool is Android: Netrunner. It is one of Fantasy Flight Games LCGs (legacy card game). They release expansions once a month, taking away the randomness in buying packs. These expansions come in "cycles" of six expansions and each cycle introduces a new mechanic to the game. It's card size is much smaller than Magic but it is growing. Fantasy Flight is currently making draft rules for the game. You guys should check it out! It also has a strong dystopian future theme so James might really like it
So in an old game thats dead now called Chaotic they did something very similar to what you mentioned around 3:35. I went to a tournament for this game, placed 11th saddly :(, but anyways you weren't allowwed to bring your own cards but rather you were given a Starter deck at random plus X amount of packs of cards. I was given this Red tribe, i honestly forget what it was called. But all the packs I got were enough to created the perfect yellow tribe deck. It's an really amazing concept and I think more TCG tournaments, atleast on the lower levels , should try this more often. Not only do you give everyone a fair shot, it test the pros knowledge, it gives everyone new cards, and it encourages new players that , who may be at there first tournament, have a shot to even beating the pros because they were able to make a good deck with there draw of the packs
Lots of games DO allow for that, with Yugioh and Pokemon being the only exceptions that leap to mind. And they technically can do it, it's just that the way sets are designed isn't conducive to doing so. A Magic set is designed not just to make new cards, but to make a new limited environment around those cards. The nature of Pokemon and Yugioh causes sets to be packed with cards that do less than nothing if you don't have certain other cards, which might not even be IN the set you're playing with, or be in the highest rarity, which is about as bad.
I feel like I heard a lot about that first point on a recent episode of Mark Rosewater's Drive to Work podcast. Great podcast if you're interested in the design of Magic or just TCGs in general, BTW.
Taling about DOTA 2 there are 3 modes which include the "refreshing" aspect of the drafting: random draft (where each player on the two teams take turns picking a hero from a limited pool of like 20 heros out of the 100+ available.) captains draft which is the same thing but with 1 player captain choosing your team, and ability draft, where each player is randomly assigned a hero then you all take turns picking out abilities (3 regular and 1 ultimate) from the pool of the 10 heros you have available to you. This means that you can make amazing combinations of skills and try to make your character viable based around what you get (and what others don't take).
I would point out that a good miniatures game also has that counterplay element. Warmachine introduced multiple lists into their tournament format because even though one army build might be very good, there are other builds that will take it down relatively easily.
That's pretty much one of the main reasons I enjoy playing draft in Magic, the play never gets stale because it's so variable. Also, it feels like a more even playing field, there's no way that one player can feel like money or anything puts them at a disadvantage to other players because they are just as much a victim of fate as you are. It's only fate and player knowledge at play there, and for many players like myself, that's extremely appealing, and not something you can get in non-collectible games.
I now want to see a deck building focused online ccg where the players are presented with the same set of cards, and have to try and build the optimal deck and then play against the other player. Each player could contribute a portion of the cards, and then there could be a randomized "pack" thrown into the mix. The winner could then take one of the cards he doesn't own and add it to his own collection. It would probably need to be a game similar to Dominion and other deck building games rather than your standard ccg, where a lot of the actual gameplay is about building your deck, rather than just using it after you have finished.
This episode made me really think about MOBA's. How all the differnt champions are like cards and building a team is like building a deck. And how having to unlock champions in League is actually more fun then having all the heroes available in DOTA2. Not having all the champions makes it a smoother feeling learning the game. Would love to see a video on MOBA's. If there isn't one already. I'll check. :)
Sidegrades are the key here, just as they are in other games. Pure upgrades in a competitive multiplayer game basically means that only the rich or the experience will win, even in a "fair" fight.
Hey guys, I love seeing more game design theory in your videos ^_^ Can we see some more examples of how you might apply the theory to existing designs? Like, how you could potentially augment a traditional shooter or roleplaying game with collectibility? And more importantly, how you might avoid the pitfalls common to doing it (no incomparables, power creep, etc)!
Would Pokemon (the main series games, not the actual TCG) count as a "collectible" game, at least at the mid-high end with EV training and IV breeding and such? Just a little thought.
If you want to know more about TCG design, or even game de- no, just *design* in general, Mark Rosewater, lead designer on Magic: The Gathering, absolutely LOVES to write about his work. He's had a weekly article on the M:TG website for over a decade, he has a tumblr blog where he answers design questions, and when he decided he wanted to do more, he found that his schedule was so packed he didn't have any time to do it... so he started recording podcasts while driving to work. There is a massive wealth of useful information there... though admittedly you're going to have to learn at least some of Magic's terminology to understand most of it.
Kingdom Conquest II is a very good example of a collectible game done right. All the cards you don't need can be used to power up the cards you do need. The game gives you rares and super rares for logging in daily. You are able to get in game money from expanding your city without actually spending money. It is well balanced and crosses collection with dungeon action & a large exploration map. This is my choice for mobile games, not just in collectible games but in general. It's my favorite.
As a veteran Yu-Gi-Oh! player, this video was a lot of fun. One thing I've noticed about the game though is that with each trend in the meta there's always ONE card that's a major pain in the 'tocks. Considering that I play Karakuri, Evilswarm Ophion is pretty much a game over in the form of a card. Skill Drain is almost as bad. I kinda wish that there were cards that were really cheap and ANY deck could use that would each counter each other, so even if a theoretical all-purpose card to defeat Ophion was Limited, it'd still be fun to play mind games with my opponent as we each try to avoid each other's boss monsters.
That's why I've favoured Decks that can be competent without costing a fortune, like Final Countdown, Burn, or Mill. Unfortunately, TCG has crippled Final Countdown and banned Morphing Jars 1 and 2 which are the centrepiece of Yugioh Mill Decks, and the playerbase is still very bitter over Chain Burn, and wanting its components on the Lists. Seems like it'll become a stupidly egregious form of "I win because I've invested more in my Deck than you".
I like this trend of shorter intros (especially since some people don't seem to understand that I don't want to sit through 30 seconds of flashy spectacle in a 1 minute video when I really just want to get to the meat of the video while eating a lunch meat sandwich). Though I would suggest putting the video topic in the intro as well. It feels like something is missing without it.
Great episode guys! Great change on the intro and Outro! You guys are top stuff! Hey Dan, I'm thinking of getting into animation (non-proff). Aside from hand drawn, any beginning software recommendation? No WaY can I afford Adobe's "After Effects" Cheers!
aww... I love the music in for the credits. When that album was released, I downloaded them all and burt them to a CD. I still have that CD in my car. Oh, the rest of the episode was good, too. I've been playing HearthStone like mad, I'm really interested to see what happens when they introduce more cards.
For anyone watching this these days, try Infinity Wars. It's a well done f2p digital tcg with an interesting story and solid play :D It's also not pay to win, so ... :)
Despite I want to kill the desiners at Konami with ygo, I think pokémon is the most flawled. The HP on your pokemon is something you have to constantly keep track off, there are tons of rules you get from buying a starter deck so you're like "Fuck, I'm out". Not to mention that their way to avoid power creep is to ban the previous expansion completely (at least it was like that in my time) so your deck becomes completely useless and you have to start again.
I played the Pokemon Trading Card Game Video Game for gameboy and still love the thing. I looked recently into getting into the game now and was shocked to see the stats on all the cards. Power creep is crazy high on all the new cards, all the gen 1 cards are essentially useless. That instantly turned me off.
Nerdy314159265 The sets are rotated out after 2 to 3 years anyway, banning from official tournaments all but the 5 to 8 most recent sets. I saw power creep becoming something really bad when Feraligatr in the HeartGold/SoulSilver set got Rain Dance again but was considered a B-tier card whereas Rain Dance was considered near-broken at the beginning, despite HG/SS Feraligatr having more HP and better attacks than the original Blastoise.
***** I was aware that they banned the older cards. It seems more like they did it to try and hide all the power creep. It's sad that you can't actually play your holographic Charizard anymore.
Nerdy314159265 This is kind of what stopped me from playing pokemon before I barely bought a starter deck. It was the RS expansion and I found out that older cards weren't allowed, I found that a ridiculous way to follow the Crack is Cheaper trope and now I just buy them for the pretty pictures =w=
***** Unfortunately, as of late there's been more and more of the same-looking CGI and less of the unique art styles guys like Tomokazu Komiya, Yuka Morii, and Sachiko Adachi have. The full-art cards still look very nice though.
I play so many TCGs/CCGs these days that I mostly play Commander format in Magic. It drops need for me to buy MtG boosters and instead buy singles that I don't have while for some other TCGs/CCGs I can easily justify for myself buying even booster boxes if I feel like it. TCGs/CCGs have been part of my life ever since I started MtG back in 1997 and I can't see that going away soon.
Just wanted to mention I love your videos. Today's was a bit disorienting with the video clips instead of the standard still image. It feels as if they are on screen for too short of a time for me to have any comprehension of what I am looking at before the next picture. As for MTG I do fully get why this game was chosen as an Example. I used to play years ago but stopped when every deck I went against was a variation of that tiers "OP Winners Deck" to the point that if you were not playing specific cards you just lost. This was (consistently) present in casual play, not just tournament. It just took all the fun out of play and building decks.
Don't suppose you guys could do an episode on (for lack of a better term) "toys-to-life" collectibles? You know; Skylanders, Disney Infinity, amiibo...
I find some elements in Japan have found a neat "middle path" for digital CCGs. SQEX, of course, rules the market there, but each CCG game they release for mobile play (or mobage as it's more commonly referred to) has tried to involve some new variation. It's as if they're feeling their way forward, one step at a time, in a market already horrifically saturated with clones and clones of clones. One of these is the Million Arthur franchise. Quickly becoming another jewel in SQEX's bulging crown, MA is a CCG that emphasizes co-op dungeon play over PvP play (the latter is still there, but receives very little serious discussion). Recent updates to the game have introduced newer mechanics (like how one expects Wizards of the Coast to do the same with MtG) , but also updated older cards to make sure the older player base still has staying power. The standard rules that you've outlined in this video still apply here, but for a digital game the developers are surprisingly open-handed with hard currency assets, with mass giveaways of "gold" currency a common occurrence in the game. It's ironic as well because the combat system is rather similar to Hearthstone (as in turn by turn guaranteed mana growth), and the generosity is glaring compared to Blizzard's aloofness in the same situation. Perhaps you could elaborate on this developer-to-player relationship in games in another video? I find this phenomenon rather interesting as it shows the different methods that developers use to keep committed players within their games. And maybe later you could analyze the core differences between Japanese and Western game markets as a follow-up? Much appreciated.
The CG "Cardfight Vanguard" is an example of a game with excellent comparables. There's a set baseline for "strength" across all the categories of cards; if a card has a special effect, it's "strength" is decreased proportional to how useful that effect is. The designers never stray from this rule, and because of that there is fundamentally no card that is demonstrably and universally "better" than any other.
I think another example of a good collectable system is Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer mode: >new fundamentally different -- but no better or worse -- ways to play as you randomly unlock new classes with different power sets, >new ways to play a class you're already familiar with as randomly unlocked new guns with unique properties (sticky-grenade pistol, faster-firing shotgun, high-damage semi-auto assault rifle) encourage restructuring builds to optimize level-up upgrades differently, and >the randomly-acquired consumables (ammo and health resupplies, second-chance packs, emergency rockets, and one-game stat buffs) encourage constant game-to-game shifts in play style as various supplies run low.
Could you guys do an episode explaining the appeal of games like Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon. I see that a lot of people enjoy them but I just can't get into them. If a game is going to make me work I'd rather it be a grind like Monster Hunter or something reminiscent of my early gaming days like drawing maps in Etrian Odyssey.
Ooh, spiffy new intro. I wonder how CCG elements would work out if applied to a different genre, like a 3v3 fps that lets you build a "deck" of 7 weapons and/or pieces of equipment, or a pinball game with swappable board elements.
Yup. The good doctor Richard Garfield definitely hit upon a stroke of genius (Ha! That's a Magic card!) when he came up with Magic. He has also spoken out on the negative aspects of similar games and other practices in gaming in general like when he talked about the problem of "Skinnerware".
I'm very excited by these observations. I'm not a collectible gamer and it's very cool to see the genre strutting it's stuff. I seem to recall some kind of card minigame being just about the only redeemable feature of one of the latter Final Fantasy games but it wasn't enough to keep me interested. I never finished it. I haven't finished a final fantasy game since VII. You're right though, as cards were found and lost the entire nature of the game changed. I never thought about it in that context before, but that really WAS what made the game interesting. I'm still not sold, mind you. In the end it's still a game for wallet warriors. I suppose you could play starter deck vs. starter deck (I still have one gathering dust someplace), but then you lose all the dynamic strategy that makes the genre interesting. And I have NO idea where you would find players who wanted to play "magic lite". Personally I think I'm going to continue to keep my distance from the genre, but that makes it all the more awesome that you are offering design information on it. Keep up the good work.
People, check out Prismata! I think it offers one of the most balanced solutions to this problem: Each player gets the same random cards in a match! (Apart from the basic card set included in each game) You get a new structure to strategize within for each match, but your opponent does not have better/worse cards :D
Thanks for the kind words on the new intro and thumbnails and stuff! Glad you guys are liking them! -Dan
Will you do an episode on hearthstone
Some combination of the old and new intro maybe? Your intro music is kinda ™ at this point, although I kinda like this opening animation better.
Love the shorter intro! The original was great too but it has since already ran it's course.
Smooth and eye catching! Way to go guys!
Cool new intro, and I'm digging the GIFs too!
Dan and James, I love your series. I've tried to use a lot of the concepts you talk about to help my own level design work.
All the best,
Vechs
Yo
At the end of this episode, we mentioned many new things are coming up for the Extra Credits channel. Well, we got a little more specific here - and there will be details soon! Extra Credits Announces New Shows!
hey, can you replace that family guy footage in the beginning? there's absolutely no reason why anyone should be subjected to an in-progress, fully animated bloody assault when watching a video about collectible games. and pairing it with the word "abused" just makes it worse. that sort of thing could serious trigger assault survivors. i barely retained most of the information in your video because i was so stressed by that moment.
wren nilla you are a sad trombone of a human being.
wren nilla Apologies for the distress, but thank you for letting us know. A trigger warning has been added. -Soraya
Mauddibism She's got a pretentious video with vaginas and penises lit by flash lights, with a tedious poem being read over it, for ten freaking minutes.
yes i do. and making it was literally the most fun i've ever had. lol
The draft aspect of CCGs reminds me of Nuzlocke runs in Pokemon. You make the best with what you're dealt. Adds a whole new realm of experience to the main story of the game for those people who find it easy.
This episode can basically be summed up as "Why Magic The Gathering is Awesome".
This video just made me remember how much I love Magic. I don't "play" Magic but sometimes at conventions its so much fun to just sit down and do a draft. I usually just give the cards to my friends when I'm done but its still so rewarding because of the "puzzle" aspect as mentioned in this video.
Yeah. If I were to get back into Magic it would be a draft tourney. Aside from that I feel the game has gotten way too bloated and convoluted lately. I feel they they add new mechanics and rule changes with little regard of what came before it. I want to smack the guy who thought the "Proliferate" ability was a good idea. :/
Unfortunately, every TCG/CCG I've come across has had its competitive scene distilled down to about 5 different decks, tops. The Pokémon TCG had this hit the hardest: During the 3rd generation, there were literally dozens of possible combinations, because every card designed Rare or above (sometimes even Uncommon) had competitive potential, as it became strongly exceptions-based. That is, every set had at least 8 or so cards that allowed you to break one or more rules or was immune to one or more rules and were designed in conjunction with each other. By the 5th generation, this philosophy was tossed out the window by making rarer cards inherently and obviously more powerful and brought in the new Level X Pokémon, who were so powerful, Mewtwo in particular, that for a brief moment only Mewtwo decks could win tournaments. It's up to around...three or so now, but the creativity in card design has become a shell of its former self. The focus was now based on high HP, high damage, rather than putting up barriers or overcoming drawbacks like 3rd- and 4th-generation play was like. (I haven't played the TCG at all over the 6th generation though.)
Nintendo does a pretty good job of making cards available though--if a card catches on, it becomes a promo card available in box sets or tins at every toy store and department store. This is something I see few other TCG makers do (only Yu-Gi-Oh! and Naruto so far).
Ever tried yugioh?
I want 4 copies of evey card from magic ever printed.
I also want tons and tons of money
Me too.
But all are PSA10 graded cards
Do you have a storage facility for that?
Yeha
Superb! You guys usually make so many references to Magic: The Gathering that it's great to see an episode focused on it. I think (atleast from a game design perspective) there's A LOT to learn from MTG (I highly recommend checking Mark Rosewater's column on design of the game at the MTG page).
To go a bit off topic, I think this random thing is one things why roguelikes and roguelites are popular: you can't always have things go in your way and you have to work with what you have (games like Atom Zombie Smasher come to mind). (the other part is having tension of losing everything when you die but not having "I have to do it all over again" feeling.)
Could you guys do an episode on mmo end games? Honestly I've never once made it to the end game of an memo because the beginning and middle game are so ignored, and feel like a huge grind to get to the "good stuff" that everyone talks about at the end of the game, and I'm curious as to what the thought process there is... Why only add content to interest people heavily invested into the game, and not content to help grab the interest of new players with 60 levels of fetchquests and kill quests between them and 'fun'?
Thanks :3
I think one of the topics should be that why are the most well known MMO games RPGs.
I thought Bombermine is a MMO and there's very little bland grinding as you have to battle with others all the time to get something.
It's not that WoW did nothing for players outside of the max-level section of the game (adding new races, all with their unique starting areas, dungeons, and quests provided a lot more options for first time players, people who like making multiple characters, or even people who had max-level characters, lowering cost restrictions for faster movement from place to place). Personally the one time I got to max level and tried some raids, I just went back to leveling a new character because it was a lot more fun. End-level characters tended to get the most focus or content (typically an additional 10 levels added to the cap, and then a new race to try out) because they had already explored most of the content (several times, mind you, as by that point they probably have several max-level characters) and if they have nothing else to explore or do, they would have no reason to play anymore. Boss design in higher-level raids starts to become more unique than "this guy has a lot of health, hit him hard" or "he hits hard, so don't pull aggro from the tank", where there might be special mode changes, positioning problems, additional mobs to control, or straight-up puzzles, which can make for some interesting fights. Regarding why the more interesting fights could not be integrated into lower-level bosses... My guesses would be is that 1. the early dungeons were designed as part of a learning experience, and show off certain mechanics (sleep + other crowd control), and have them get used to working in a group of other players, 2. they needed ways to challenge max-level players that was not stat-oriented (as max level characters typically pick up better and better gear), to challenge their abilities given that they already know the game very well, because the last thing you want is to give them the same-old-same-old fights that they've been doing for 60+ levels. $0.02
I would love to see the Extra Credits crew playing magic.
I'm surprised so few games use this collectable mechanic outside of TCG. There's a lot of genres that could use a collectible mechanic to put an interesting spin on competitive multiplayer.
I really preffered the old intro. It uses the "photographs" well to both introduce you to the team and welcome you into the episode, as well as showing "we've got this much of awesome stuff we've done in the past".
All in all, it just felt more... homely. The new intro is, in my opinion, too clinical.
The new outro and the green-colored look in general are cool though - and as always the episode itself is pure quality :)
I agree completely :) I like the new ending, and the new opening's not bad, but I do prefer the previous opening with all the photographs. Perhaps if they could combine them, with that green background behind the photographs and maybe where it shows the logo, have the game with the gears thing appear that moves away to reveal the logo. The best of both worlds :D
Good points, and I hate to be 'that guy', but did you mean "homey"? "Homely" means ugly.
DanThePropMan Both "homely" and "homey" mean something comfortable and "home-like", American English just prefers "homey" :)
EdwardBerner Really? I've only ever heard "homely" used to mean "ugly". I learned something new today.
DanThePropMan And I had never heard "homely" used to mean "ugly". So we both learned something :D
Hey, I'm making a TCG at home (just for my friends and I) and this video really helped me by indirectly telling me what and what not to do. Keep it up!
This is my favorite channel on youtube, I hope my laziness wears off soon because I wanna make games, also, do you have any videos about character design or creation (original characters, not in-game)
I found you guys through PATV a while back and you have become something that my wife and I look forward to all the time. Love the show!
@2:44- is something that actually does happen in Magic the Gathering. It is what we call "strictly better" cards. They don't get printed all the time, but it does happen. Also, this is part of Power Creep, a topic from another video.
In MtG's history, for around 15 years, Savannah Lions was a staple rare as a 2/1 for a single white mana, where now a 2/1 for one has been relegated to uncommon status, and with features that are more useful than the original Lion. For example, a solider creature type that benefits from solider tribal effects, or in black a zombie that can be replayed over and over again from the graveyard and also benefits from zombie tribal effects.
I don't think this is always a bad thing. in the case of Magic, creatures were underpowered for a long time, and for around a decade, the best decks played little to no creatures in them. That is certainly changing and it better for the overall health of the game.
Wow! Thx for putting up subtitles in Portuguese! Even though I don't need them that much, I'm sure there's plenty of Portuguese and Brazilian people out there looking for the kind of content you guys make.
Ever thought about as show over "Making rules that don't Explode", making mechanics that don't get the player stuck or cause a logical explosion is a unique challenge for those interested in the technical aspect.
I like the new intro and outro, very cool guys. I do appreciate you guys going back into this since I play Heroclix and a lot of what you said in the old episodes rang so true, at the same time the new ideas you presented on here are why I love Heroclix, it's ever evolving and ever changing and becoming more accommodating for the newer players though you do wind up seeing a lot of the "well this rare piece is the one that is going to win it for everyone, can't wait to see 100 of them at the next tournament"
I'm not sure if you've already done this, but you could talk about art style/design in games and trading cards. Art can influence the people who buy a game, and also sometimes how a game is played. If you have, then sorry for not noticing.
I preferred the old intro song. It had more of a lead-in. As it currently stands, it just plops the viewer down into the middle of the track, and it's a bit disconcerting.
... Am I the only one that found LeeLee's aneurysm moment funny?
What makes a good TCG/CCG? That would be Storm Crow.
I liked your old intro more
Hey nice thumbnails... also... I noticed nobody said anything about duel masters... that was the ultimate collectible card game when I was young... is it really that obscure or it's just part of a different category...?
Man it's because it came out in the west when Yugioh was still huge. When I first heard of Duel Masters I thought it was just some dumb knock off and didn't give it a chance but later I found out otherwise and when I saw the rules and especially the resource management it bummed me out that it never took off.
So sad that it came down to bad timing.
Duel Masters is Magic: Lite, made by WotC for a younger audience and a different market.
It did okay, then horrible in America, but well in Japan. They're trying again here with Kaijudo, which uses the exact same play-style, cards, and mechanics with some small changes.
i hope that next month or so THE newest bestest innovation in collectible gaming occurs so you HAVE to make another episode on the subject. that would be so fun :D
This is a perfect explanation why Yugioh should STOP MAKING NEW DECKS!! you introduce 10 cool looking ones one year and then forget about them after a while and make obviously more powerful ones
More like Yugioh has a problem with "A outclasses B at the same cost", compounded with unchecked power creep. The concept of archetypes in Yugioh also terribly restrict what you can do with your cards.
Kai Li Kwoh I actually thought the opposite about Yu-Gi-Oh. Yeah a good portion is all about the points but there are a fair amount of cards I remember that focused on creatures with lower points. Traps that made those creatures useful as bait so that you can overwhelm your opponent with a spell or get rid of that one problem monster with a trap.
Kai Li Kwoh From what I can tell YuGiOh has absolutely no playtesting whatsoever.
Take the Ice Barrier as an example, it is a REALLY interesting style that makes you want to have all the archetype in a single deck. However the synchros weren't exclusive to its deck and people started abusing it. As the power creep uses swarsm and swarms, Ice Barriers become really limited on what they can do since the rest of the deck depends on another card, and konami never fixed it.
YGO violates every single thing that collectible games should not do, even in the CCG versions.
And on the other end of the spectrum, you have hunter decks in Hearthstone. :d
Man, I'd be so happy if I got 4 of every card. I'd sell those Power Nine and get a buttload of cash... to buy more cards...
Good episode! And, it's nice to hear a Bound Together track as the outro!
It's like every strength mentioned is the same for RPG's: witholding skills untill you've learned to use them before introducing more - of course, a lot of RPG's have just used the system as way to raise numbers.
When you brought up bad games making the cards all about the numbers, it reminded me of an old TCG called Chaotic. The main gimmick was that no two cards of the same creature were exactly the same, making stats like health and various forms of resistance different on each card. But my 10-11 year old self didn't to realize that meant, more often than not, the stats would turn out low, even if that specific monster relies on a certain stat for abilities. Every time I found a card I wanted in a booster pack, I couldn't use it because an important stat was too low.
It was a neat idea, they just executed it poorly. It felt absolutely terrible opening that super rare guy you wanted, and then realizing his stats were garbage. I think having the same character in multiple rarities, while assigning better stats to the rarer ones would have been better. It gets the feel of having a character with variable stats across, and you don't feel ripped off when you open a junk version of an otherwise sweet card. (People already see commons as disposable for most games anyhow. Doing it this way means that, while they wouldn't be optimal for play, you COULD play with your favorite characters on a budget, which is very kid friendly.)
Also, I think some cards were exclusive to starter decks, (both in the fixed and random portions therein) but they didn't make that apparent in their advertising of the product.
That being said, it's a shame it went belly-up because of litigation with 4kids, and not because of a lack of interest in the game. Chaotic pioneered physical/digital collecting, and I don't believe any other card game has attempted sharing your physical and digital collections on a 1-1 ratio.
I started playing Magic when Unlimited and Revised Editions were out. I still remember my friends playing with Beta and Alpha cards. I, also, remember buying a whole box of Ice Age boosters when I was 11. That was super fun to open.
then you've lived through urza block. how was that?
ignaeon During the Urza block is when I quit playing. It was getting to be too much - in both money and cards. I wish WotC would have stopped making new sets at that point.
HiDefJesus Well, sounds like you quit when I started playing MTG, bro. Also, to make players that had to deal with the uber-powerful black devotion deck during Theros, Sanguine Bond + "Gary" (Grey Merchant of Asphodel).
Leelee at 2:20! XD I know the feeling
Really cool design update, everyone, and I like the intro!
Extra Credits, could you please make an episode or a blog/forum post about the difference (and benefits and faults) of CCG/TCG and LCG (the so-called "living card game" format that is being pushed by Fantasy Flight Games)?
I absolutely love the new intro and outro.
Nice Intro there but I also miss those photo of the previous Episode, it sort of remind me how far this show have been going
And good ep as always thank you for making such an informative show
There is also something I notice that happens in videogames and TV shows, which is that writers focus on the main reasons why a character is memorable, and take away the other traits that make the character... well... themselves. Basically, look to any long running TV show, or videogame with the same main character or the same supporting characters and you can see traits being lost. You also can see traits they are known for like, anger, sadness, sarcasm, really anything well known about them being emphasized. I know this has nothing to do with trading cards, or at least directly like TV shows or video games, but I just wanted to get that out. :)
I'd like to suggest an example of a collectible game that did some things very RIGHT. Puzzle and Dragons is an iOS and Android app that is an immensely deep, steadily growing, easy to learn but hard to master collective monster game made in Japan but underrepresented in the U.S. Imagine Pokemon, but in order for the monsters to attack you have to match orbs as if in Bejeweled. I suggest you play it, get to know it, look online for some late-game content, and decide if it is worth mentioning.
What do you think about the Living Card game model from Fantasy Flight and others.
Tell me about it.
Living card games are distributed in core sets, packs and expansions that are non-random. Every one has the same cards. The packs and expansions have a play set of new each card.
ToolTime Yeah I read that but I still didn't get it much. Like... every expansion has decks enough for more than one player or they're simply a more advanced version of a a complete deck?
Well I can mostly only speak for Game Of Thrones and Netrunner (the two LCGs I play) But it usually goes like this: 1 core set will let you build 2-4 decks for basic casual play (competitive play usually requires owning more than one core set) Packs are released monthly and have 20 unique cards, 3 copies each for a full play set (60 total). The packs typically have 2 new cards for each faction, plus neutral cards. Deluxe expansions come out maybe twice a year and usually focus on one or two factions. For example, next week the Lions of Casterly Rock expansion comes out for AGOT. About half of it is Lannister cards (hence the name) with 2 new cards for each of the 7 other factions and 14 neutral cards (3 copies of each unique card, 156 cards total).
To compare it to Magic, imagine that instead of releasing a new set of 200-ish cards every 6 months or so in randomized boosters, that the set was release 20 cards at a time once a month over that time period and that the packs were non-randomized and you got a full play set of every card. Imagine also that there is typically little in the way of filler in the packs ( I will spare you the details of card design and mechanics and how this effects LCG packs, and also spare you a rant about magic's recycling). With an LCG, there are no mythic rares you have to spend $200 for a playset of.
That being said, LCG's do cost money to play competitively, so it is in a sense "pay to win". Its highly unlikely you are going to win Worlds with only one core set (and there is no shortage of people on forums whinging about needing to buy more than one core to play competitively). The difference is in what you are getting for your money. I have personally spent enough on AGOT and Netrunner to buy a tournament quality Magic deck or two. But that's it: 1-2 decks. Instead I own a playset of every card in both games. In terms of card pool, I am on the same playing field as the best players.
It's the randomizing of cards and the artificial scarcity in CCGs/TCGs that create a secondary market with ridiculous prices for the best cards. They do it that way to sell more boosters, but most competitive players of CCGs realize that is a suckers game and just buy singles.
ToolTime Ooooh ok, I got it =) Thank you so much!
Great work by Lelee this episode! I was chuckling the whole way through.
Am I a veteran in magic if I haven’t played but have a huge deck and strategy?
2:20 That's what I did.
This episode really felt like a "why magic the gather is such a well made ccg" episode not complaining as I used to play a lot of magic the gathering and still do for work purposes. It is a fabulously designed game and a lot of thought goes into how to grow and expand the game. For anyone that is interested in how they do their design Id really suggest reading some of Mark Rosewater's articles on the mtg website where he delves into magic design it's really insightful.
One game that looks to be doing this well too is hearthstone in that it allows players playing for free to have just as good a time and build just as good a deck as someone that dumps loads of cash into it
Another game that is really cool is Android: Netrunner. It is one of Fantasy Flight Games LCGs (legacy card game). They release expansions once a month, taking away the randomness in buying packs. These expansions come in "cycles" of six expansions and each cycle introduces a new mechanic to the game. It's card size is much smaller than Magic but it is growing. Fantasy Flight is currently making draft rules for the game. You guys should check it out! It also has a strong dystopian future theme so James might really like it
So in an old game thats dead now called Chaotic they did something very similar to what you mentioned around 3:35. I went to a tournament for this game, placed 11th saddly :(, but anyways you weren't allowwed to bring your own cards but rather you were given a Starter deck at random plus X amount of packs of cards.
I was given this Red tribe, i honestly forget what it was called. But all the packs I got were enough to created the perfect yellow tribe deck.
It's an really amazing concept and I think more TCG tournaments, atleast on the lower levels , should try this more often. Not only do you give everyone a fair shot, it test the pros knowledge, it gives everyone new cards, and it encourages new players that , who may be at there first tournament, have a shot to even beating the pros because they were able to make a good deck with there draw of the packs
Lots of games DO allow for that, with Yugioh and Pokemon being the only exceptions that leap to mind. And they technically can do it, it's just that the way sets are designed isn't conducive to doing so. A Magic set is designed not just to make new cards, but to make a new limited environment around those cards. The nature of Pokemon and Yugioh causes sets to be packed with cards that do less than nothing if you don't have certain other cards, which might not even be IN the set you're playing with, or be in the highest rarity, which is about as bad.
I feel like I heard a lot about that first point on a recent episode of Mark Rosewater's Drive to Work podcast. Great podcast if you're interested in the design of Magic or just TCGs in general, BTW.
Loving the intro and outro! Awesome content, as always!
No! Please don't stop talking about this for a while! Its an interesting subject.
Taling about DOTA 2 there are 3 modes which include the "refreshing" aspect of the drafting: random draft (where each player on the two teams take turns picking a hero from a limited pool of like 20 heros out of the 100+ available.) captains draft which is the same thing but with 1 player captain choosing your team, and ability draft, where each player is randomly assigned a hero then you all take turns picking out abilities (3 regular and 1 ultimate) from the pool of the 10 heros you have available to you. This means that you can make amazing combinations of skills and try to make your character viable based around what you get (and what others don't take).
I would point out that a good miniatures game also has that counterplay element. Warmachine introduced multiple lists into their tournament format because even though one army build might be very good, there are other builds that will take it down relatively easily.
Liking the gifs and mini clips. Great episode!
That's pretty much one of the main reasons I enjoy playing draft in Magic, the play never gets stale because it's so variable. Also, it feels like a more even playing field, there's no way that one player can feel like money or anything puts them at a disadvantage to other players because they are just as much a victim of fate as you are. It's only fate and player knowledge at play there, and for many players like myself, that's extremely appealing, and not something you can get in non-collectible games.
2:15 probably the funniest thing I've seen all week
I now want to see a deck building focused online ccg where the players are presented with the same set of cards, and have to try and build the optimal deck and then play against the other player. Each player could contribute a portion of the cards, and then there could be a randomized "pack" thrown into the mix. The winner could then take one of the cards he doesn't own and add it to his own collection. It would probably need to be a game similar to Dominion and other deck building games rather than your standard ccg, where a lot of the actual gameplay is about building your deck, rather than just using it after you have finished.
This episode made me really think about MOBA's. How all the differnt champions are like cards and building a team is like building a deck. And how having to unlock champions in League is actually more fun then having all the heroes available in DOTA2. Not having all the champions makes it a smoother feeling learning the game. Would love to see a video on MOBA's. If there isn't one already. I'll check. :)
Loving the new format guys :D
Hey, long time huge fan of your video series here! Loving the new look :)
Sidegrades are the key here, just as they are in other games. Pure upgrades in a competitive multiplayer game basically means that only the rich or the experience will win, even in a "fair" fight.
Hey guys, I love seeing more game design theory in your videos ^_^
Can we see some more examples of how you might apply the theory to existing designs? Like, how you could potentially augment a traditional shooter or roleplaying game with collectibility? And more importantly, how you might avoid the pitfalls common to doing it (no incomparables, power creep, etc)!
I think I'll miss the old intro but this one is cool. Forward and onward!
+1 for format and spruced up animations.
Extra credits, you're a freakin' gold mine of informations ! Just thanks :)
Would Pokemon (the main series games, not the actual TCG) count as a "collectible" game, at least at the mid-high end with EV training and IV breeding and such? Just a little thought.
If you want to know more about TCG design, or even game de- no, just *design* in general, Mark Rosewater, lead designer on Magic: The Gathering, absolutely LOVES to write about his work. He's had a weekly article on the M:TG website for over a decade, he has a tumblr blog where he answers design questions, and when he decided he wanted to do more, he found that his schedule was so packed he didn't have any time to do it... so he started recording podcasts while driving to work. There is a massive wealth of useful information there... though admittedly you're going to have to learn at least some of Magic's terminology to understand most of it.
As a former MTG player and current player of Netrunner, I feel that the LCGs solve a lot of what is bad keeping what is good in TCGs.
Kingdom Conquest II is a very good example of a collectible game done right. All the cards you don't need can be used to power up the cards you do need. The game gives you rares and super rares for logging in daily. You are able to get in game money from expanding your city without actually spending money. It is well balanced and crosses collection with dungeon action & a large exploration map. This is my choice for mobile games, not just in collectible games but in general. It's my favorite.
New intro and credits look pretty sweet.
I can't wait to see what other new things are coming up.
As a veteran Yu-Gi-Oh! player, this video was a lot of fun. One thing I've noticed about the game though is that with each trend in the meta there's always ONE card that's a major pain in the 'tocks. Considering that I play Karakuri, Evilswarm Ophion is pretty much a game over in the form of a card. Skill Drain is almost as bad. I kinda wish that there were cards that were really cheap and ANY deck could use that would each counter each other, so even if a theoretical all-purpose card to defeat Ophion was Limited, it'd still be fun to play mind games with my opponent as we each try to avoid each other's boss monsters.
That's why I've favoured Decks that can be competent without costing a fortune, like Final Countdown, Burn, or Mill. Unfortunately, TCG has crippled Final Countdown and banned Morphing Jars 1 and 2 which are the centrepiece of Yugioh Mill Decks, and the playerbase is still very bitter over Chain Burn, and wanting its components on the Lists. Seems like it'll become a stupidly egregious form of "I win because I've invested more in my Deck than you".
Man, that outro song brings back memories...
I like this trend of shorter intros (especially since some people don't seem to understand that I don't want to sit through 30 seconds of flashy spectacle in a 1 minute video when I really just want to get to the meat of the video while eating a lunch meat sandwich). Though I would suggest putting the video topic in the intro as well. It feels like something is missing without it.
Great episode guys! Great change on the intro and Outro! You guys are top stuff!
Hey Dan, I'm thinking of getting into animation (non-proff). Aside from hand drawn, any beginning software recommendation? No WaY can I afford Adobe's "After Effects"
Cheers!
aww... I love the music in for the credits. When that album was released, I downloaded them all and burt them to a CD. I still have that CD in my car. Oh, the rest of the episode was good, too. I've been playing HearthStone like mad, I'm really interested to see what happens when they introduce more cards.
For anyone watching this these days, try Infinity Wars. It's a well done f2p digital tcg with an interesting story and solid play :D
It's also not pay to win, so ... :)
Despite I want to kill the desiners at Konami with ygo, I think pokémon is the most flawled. The HP on your pokemon is something you have to constantly keep track off, there are tons of rules you get from buying a starter deck so you're like "Fuck, I'm out". Not to mention that their way to avoid power creep is to ban the previous expansion completely (at least it was like that in my time) so your deck becomes completely useless and you have to start again.
I played the Pokemon Trading Card Game Video Game for gameboy and still love the thing. I looked recently into getting into the game now and was shocked to see the stats on all the cards. Power creep is crazy high on all the new cards, all the gen 1 cards are essentially useless. That instantly turned me off.
Nerdy314159265
The sets are rotated out after 2 to 3 years anyway, banning from official tournaments all but the 5 to 8 most recent sets.
I saw power creep becoming something really bad when Feraligatr in the HeartGold/SoulSilver set got Rain Dance again but was considered a B-tier card whereas Rain Dance was considered near-broken at the beginning, despite HG/SS Feraligatr having more HP and better attacks than the original Blastoise.
***** I was aware that they banned the older cards. It seems more like they did it to try and hide all the power creep. It's sad that you can't actually play your holographic Charizard anymore.
Nerdy314159265
This is kind of what stopped me from playing pokemon before I barely bought a starter deck. It was the RS expansion and I found out that older cards weren't allowed, I found that a ridiculous way to follow the Crack is Cheaper trope and now I just buy them for the pretty pictures =w=
*****
Unfortunately, as of late there's been more and more of the same-looking CGI and less of the unique art styles guys like Tomokazu Komiya, Yuka Morii, and Sachiko Adachi have. The full-art cards still look very nice though.
Sweet new format, guys!
I play so many TCGs/CCGs these days that I mostly play Commander format in Magic. It drops need for me to buy MtG boosters and instead buy singles that I don't have while for some other TCGs/CCGs I can easily justify for myself buying even booster boxes if I feel like it. TCGs/CCGs have been part of my life ever since I started MtG back in 1997 and I can't see that going away soon.
Please tell me that Barney Stinson, the Wingman is a real card they actually printed, and not just a Photoshop job. That's fantastic.
I know the guy - here's the original: www.deviantart.com/art/Barney-Stinson-the-Wingman-151842791
congrats for the new intro and outro, and a great video as always!
*loved Obama's picture XD
Just wanted to mention I love your videos. Today's was a bit disorienting with the video clips instead of the standard still image. It feels as if they are on screen for too short of a time for me to have any comprehension of what I am looking at before the next picture.
As for MTG I do fully get why this game was chosen as an Example. I used to play years ago but stopped when every deck I went against was a variation of that tiers "OP Winners Deck" to the point that if you were not playing specific cards you just lost. This was (consistently) present in casual play, not just tournament. It just took all the fun out of play and building decks.
Don't suppose you guys could do an episode on (for lack of a better term) "toys-to-life" collectibles? You know; Skylanders, Disney Infinity, amiibo...
Those kind of games are nothing special besides milking more money from players
Sure am glad there aren't other TCG's you could have talked about.
I find some elements in Japan have found a neat "middle path" for digital CCGs. SQEX, of course, rules the market there, but each CCG game they release for mobile play (or mobage as it's more commonly referred to) has tried to involve some new variation. It's as if they're feeling their way forward, one step at a time, in a market already horrifically saturated with clones and clones of clones.
One of these is the Million Arthur franchise. Quickly becoming another jewel in SQEX's bulging crown, MA is a CCG that emphasizes co-op dungeon play over PvP play (the latter is still there, but receives very little serious discussion). Recent updates to the game have introduced newer mechanics (like how one expects Wizards of the Coast to do the same with MtG) , but also updated older cards to make sure the older player base still has staying power. The standard rules that you've outlined in this video still apply here, but for a digital game the developers are surprisingly open-handed with hard currency assets, with mass giveaways of "gold" currency a common occurrence in the game. It's ironic as well because the combat system is rather similar to Hearthstone (as in turn by turn guaranteed mana growth), and the generosity is glaring compared to Blizzard's aloofness in the same situation.
Perhaps you could elaborate on this developer-to-player relationship in games in another video? I find this phenomenon rather interesting as it shows the different methods that developers use to keep committed players within their games. And maybe later you could analyze the core differences between Japanese and Western game markets as a follow-up? Much appreciated.
dat james with confetti...so many lols were had
The CG "Cardfight Vanguard" is an example of a game with excellent comparables. There's a set baseline for "strength" across all the categories of cards; if a card has a special effect, it's "strength" is decreased proportional to how useful that effect is. The designers never stray from this rule, and because of that there is fundamentally no card that is demonstrably and universally "better" than any other.
I think another example of a good collectable system is Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer mode: >new fundamentally different -- but no better or worse -- ways to play as you randomly unlock new classes with different power sets, >new ways to play a class you're already familiar with as randomly unlocked new guns with unique properties (sticky-grenade pistol, faster-firing shotgun, high-damage semi-auto assault rifle) encourage restructuring builds to optimize level-up upgrades differently, and >the randomly-acquired consumables (ammo and health resupplies, second-chance packs, emergency rockets, and one-game stat buffs) encourage constant game-to-game shifts in play style as various supplies run low.
Could you guys do an episode explaining the appeal of games like Animal Crossing and Harvest Moon. I see that a lot of people enjoy them but I just can't get into them. If a game is going to make me work I'd rather it be a grind like Monster Hunter or something reminiscent of my early gaming days like drawing maps in Etrian Odyssey.
thanks for continuing on this topic!
2:32 Pretty much describes Little Alchemist word for word.
I really like the new art style, but the gifs are quite distracting. Keep up the good work guys!
Ooh, spiffy new intro.
I wonder how CCG elements would work out if applied to a different genre, like a 3v3 fps that lets you build a "deck" of 7 weapons and/or pieces of equipment, or a pinball game with swappable board elements.
Yup. The good doctor Richard Garfield definitely hit upon a stroke of genius (Ha! That's a Magic card!) when he came up with Magic. He has also spoken out on the negative aspects of similar games and other practices in gaming in general like when he talked about the problem of "Skinnerware".
I'm very excited by these observations. I'm not a collectible gamer and it's very cool to see the genre strutting it's stuff. I seem to recall some kind of card minigame being just about the only redeemable feature of one of the latter Final Fantasy games but it wasn't enough to keep me interested. I never finished it. I haven't finished a final fantasy game since VII.
You're right though, as cards were found and lost the entire nature of the game changed. I never thought about it in that context before, but that really WAS what made the game interesting.
I'm still not sold, mind you. In the end it's still a game for wallet warriors. I suppose you could play starter deck vs. starter deck (I still have one gathering dust someplace), but then you lose all the dynamic strategy that makes the genre interesting. And I have NO idea where you would find players who wanted to play "magic lite".
Personally I think I'm going to continue to keep my distance from the genre, but that makes it all the more awesome that you are offering design information on it.
Keep up the good work.
Nice TW for the animated assault part.
Cool thumbnails guys help me give the designer a thumbs up :)
END SONG IS FROM BOUND TOGETHER! YUS!
People, check out Prismata!
I think it offers one of the most balanced solutions to this problem:
Each player gets the same random cards in a match! (Apart from the basic card set included in each game)
You get a new structure to strategize within for each match, but your opponent does not have better/worse cards :D
Loving the new visual look! It's great! :D