how do YOU make your timpani rolls smoother? let me know in the comments below, i'd love to hear from you! and if you haven't already, give me a thumbs up if you enjoyed this video :) thanks for watching!
Very enlightening, Rob....do you find that your basic fulcrum pressure changes between the articulate strokes and the roll strokes? For me, finding the balance between relaxation and control for consistent roll stick lift is a challenge.
yep the pressure is quite flexible. it's important to have different pressures for different types of strokes but also to feel like you have the flexibility to adjust the pressure as needed.
Rob, when I studied with the late Fred Hinger ( former principal timpanist Met ) he taught that the motion of the mallet needs to have an elliptical pattern in order to lessen the "slap" of the mallet when it strikes the timpani head. This motion is initiated by using the forearm. (Hinger had Popeye size forearms.) This should produce a "singing sound" from the drum. One of his exercises was to use a fresh tennis ball dropped from eight or so inches above onto the timpani head. You will hear the most beautiful sound from the timpani. Then he would have me use two tennis balls bouncing them alternately and just "following" them with a cupped hand. When rolling one must cradle the mallet so that it produces the same free sound as the ball.He also advocated using a hands over (like snare drum position) for articulation because the hands in that positon allowed them to remain on the head a fraction longer reducing the amount that the head can vibrate.
thanks so much for this account, don! i honestly would give anything to watch hinger play - i've heard so much about him, played his pieces, and talked to members of the orchestra who remember his unique sound.
You must have known Tom Wetzel then? He recently retired from the MSO and was teaching at UW-Milwaukee but the last time I spoke to him, he was going to retire from there as well.
Approaches to timpani vary immensely among individual artists. Look at the amazing differences between outstanding world class timpanists Rainer Seegers and Wieland Welzel, both of the Berlin Philharmonic. They both can be seen in free clips online, with much more available at Digital Concert Hall. In his loud rolls, Wieland lets his index finger come off and to the side of the stick, with the fulcrum being between the thumb and inside of the upper portion of the middle finger, allowing for an amazing rebound, perhaps the highest amplitude achieved by any timpanist I've ever watched! For legato rolls at forte and above, I would opt for the softest mallet and slowest stroke possible, with as little finger pressure on the stick as possible. When there's no time to change mallets and I am using a more articulate mallet, I would use a faster roll speed, but somewhat less dynamic to still blend in with the ensemble. Prof. Richard Hochrainer of the Vienna Philharmonic cautioned against using a roll speed for timpani that was too fast, saying that timpani should never sound like a tuba and always contain the feeling of adding energy and suspense to the sound of the orchestra. Contrast the different styles and sounds of roll playing of Rainer Seegers and Wieland Welzel with those of the US masters, such as Cloyd Duff, Roland Koloff, David Herbert, Vic Firth, Saul Goodman, Jauvon Gilliam, and Edward Stephan. They can all be seen on TH-cam clips.
Owen, that's an awesome list of timpani masters, showing that there are multiple ways to achieve a consistent, excellent sound. I would also add Joseph Pereira, Don Liuzzi, Tim Genis and, of course, Marinus Komst to the list. We live in a golden age of timpani wizards!
Ever considered switching to German grip for rolls? I was taught by an old European guy and for smooth rolls, I used mallets with a harder core but soft cover and heavier towards the player's hands.
This is great! It definitely helps to start with even hands. But on top of this, a bigger challenge is keeping the roll smooth through major dynamic changes. Most of my roll work the last few years has just been 4 measure swells (2up 2down) of gradually more dense rhythms. Obviously some drums/heads make it easier than others to execute :).
This was a great video! There were a lot of tips you gave that I'd never even thought about. I really like that you add a bit of fun into the editing of your videos.
this video is just in time, as I desperately need to work on my timpani rolls ;o)) ... thank you for your time and dedication you put into these videos ... cheers, Jochen
Just think of Galloping Gurdy. Your job is to merely assist the head's vibration to keep it going and increase the amplitude, not the velocity. You will get a glorious welling up of sound with nary a headstrike to be heard.
Play a measure of half notes, quarter notes, quarter note triplets, eighth notes, eighth note triplets, sixteenth notes, sixteenth note fivelets, sixteenth note triplets, and thirty-second notes. Then, slow back down. If you do this across all drums and all pitches, you get a really good feel about what speeds to do where. Saul Goodman proposes something similar in Modern Method for Timpani.
that's great to work on the entire spectrum of roll speed. i basically do that same thing but with stick placement, angle, and control as well. thanks benjamin!
This is a suggestion, but timpani rolls are just single stroke rolls, and I was playing the snare solo Tornado by Mitch Markovich. Tornado has many parts where it challenges your single strokes, so what I did is that I worked on isolating by just using my fingers (from slow tempos to fast) and getting a solid grip with just the thumb and index finger. After that, I not only could play Tornado, but I had very clean single stroke rolls, perfect for Timpani!
Thank you Rob, great Video and really helpful!! Can you develop about crescendos and diminuendos with rolls? Like do you keep the same speed as you increase the dynamics or not?
It all depends on the pitch vs size of drum, mallet, head type etc and also what other instruments are doing and how the roll fits into the piece. That is, the purpose of the roll. So for any roll at any given moment you adjust until you get the sound you're looking for. You do have to commit to the mallet type though before you start.
Any chance we could have a timpani technique video? Like developing great French technique in both hands and the most efficient way to practice doing it. I have trouble moving quickly with my left when I play French, at least properly. Once I start going up in tempo, my hand starts slicing and I no longer get the same sound as my right, which comes up and down in a straight path. Any thoughts?
Slightly late to the party, but there was a trick for articulate notes that my teacher taught me and I was wondering if it is something you came across. I studied with a former student of Louis Charbonneau (Montreal Symphony), and his trick for differentiating articulate notes from legato notes was that when he needed to articulate, he would use a bit of his middle finger to create a shorter "snap" off the drum head, thereby giving point to the sound. When switching to rolls all he changed was removing the involvement of the fingers and using larger muscle groups in his hands to get a smoother sound. Not sure if this technique is widespread, but around the Montreal area they seem to call it the "Charbonneau Staccato". Thoughts?
I watched this video because normally I play timpani for sight reading for uil and normally timpani is either my best or worst for region auditions but in my mind I was like yes this video should really help for region timpani and sight reading but this year there weren’t any rolls in either of the pieces...
Thank you for the great advice! I am an amateur timpanist, occasionally playing baroque cantates by Bach and Graun. I have been asked to play Bach's Weihnachts oratorium. The first chorus, "Jauchzet, frohlocket" has some long rolls. Could you advice me on how to approach these rolls? I use wooden barock mallets. This week my fastest speed is 4 notes a beat at 144 beats per seconds. Should I try double or triple strokes? Should the speed of the roll have any relation with the speed of the written quavers, or should it be completely independent? How can I practice a good transition from the roll into the Jauchzet theme?
I appreciate the suggestion of stick angle. My arms get very sore playing sustained loud rolls. I tens up my neck just as I tell my students NOT to !!!
I have a recital tomorrow. Thanks for the video! Question though-rolling with rolling mallets and staccato mallets have a difference. Would you mind covering that?
i like to practice it with the most staccato/hard pair of stick I have that way any balance difference between the hands is realy obious. then I practis long roll , short roll like a 5 stroke then enphaciseing the start and end of a roll with a slight accent
Hola amigo!! How will you recomend me practiceing my single strokes and long rolls without any timpani? Is there any practice pad or something that gets closer to the response of a timpani head? Greetings from Mexico!! Omar Ibáñez
hi omar! there's really no point to practicing timpani rolls on a practice pad because the sound that the drum makes is so deeply interconnected to how you play the roll that without the sound it's not worth your time. but - even finding a low quality timpani is worth practicing on!
these are all things you should work on in your marimba roll - certainly things like stroke speed are super important in marimba playing. you can't angle too far up on the stick on marimba compared with timpani, but it will smooth out the tone in a way with your sound. so... yep! definitely similarities are there.
Wow....this has got to be the best advice and exercises I've found to date! also my flatmate thinks you look like harry potter waving 2 wands...wonder if Hogwarts had a orchestra? consider yourself "subbed" as I want to see what other great tips you got!
it's common i think for shorter players to prefer standing while playing. however you will have limitations with pedaling so i definitely recommend getting used to sitting while playing.
i think i used akg 414s. it's been a while since i made the video... i placed them 10-12’ in front of the drums and 8' in the air. i made sure they were at 90 degree angle to each other sort of in the direction towards timpani. i'm not a producer or sound engineer at all - i just made it up. but glad to hear you like the sound!
Thanks for that Rob - really very helpful. I got into timpani playing by accident and just learning on the job - no teachers anywhere near me, so I watch videos like yours and practice whenever I can. For making my rolls smoother, I cheat and use soft mallets!
thanks for watching the videos! sounds like you're going about this very proactively and trying to learn a ton in a short amount of time. i think that's common tactic with the timpani rolls - even with the best roll technique, your rolls will sound smoother with softer mallets, so good instincts there. are there any topics you want me to cover as you continue learning online?
Lot of conflicting advice found online - eg make sure heads strike close together/make sure heads strike far apart.... I practised your methods (closer together for articulation and further apart for rolls) and also the different hand heights and grip - think it helped, but I'll persevere. Also have to find the courage not to roll "too fast" and take your advice on slower hitting. Doesn't help that I have no timps to practise on - only at my weekly rehearsal!
yeah, there's lots of conflicting advice because there are lots of ways to play timpani. these are just some new colors that you can use to make different sounds. you should keep experimenting, there's definitely no hard and fast rules - timpani will be played differently from one orchestra to the next.
I think of it as ringing a bell! Slower lower faster higher! If you get bong, bong it,s great tone but beoowww, yuck! You sound good! Uhh I,m was drilled in the Duff school,, it,s all fingers up to forte then fingers and wrist added to increase the creshendo!
how do YOU make your timpani rolls smoother? let me know in the comments below, i'd love to hear from you! and if you haven't already, give me a thumbs up if you enjoyed this video :) thanks for watching!
Very enlightening, Rob....do you find that your basic fulcrum pressure changes between the articulate strokes and the roll strokes? For me, finding the balance between relaxation and control for consistent roll stick lift is a challenge.
yep the pressure is quite flexible. it's important to have different pressures for different types of strokes but also to feel like you have the flexibility to adjust the pressure as needed.
Hey Rob do you ever play German grip
Play 30 second notes with your pad while playing on a timpani to warm up the roll
Rob, when I studied with the late Fred Hinger ( former principal timpanist Met ) he taught that the motion of the mallet needs to have an elliptical pattern in order to lessen the "slap" of the mallet when it strikes the timpani head. This motion is initiated by using the forearm. (Hinger had Popeye size forearms.) This should produce a "singing sound" from the drum. One of his exercises was to use a fresh tennis ball dropped from eight or so inches above onto the timpani head. You will hear the most beautiful sound from the timpani. Then he would have me use two tennis balls bouncing them alternately and just "following" them with a cupped hand. When rolling one must cradle the mallet so that it produces the same free sound as the ball.He also advocated using a hands over (like snare drum position) for articulation because the hands in that positon allowed them to remain on the head a fraction longer reducing the amount that the head can vibrate.
thanks so much for this account, don! i honestly would give anything to watch hinger play - i've heard so much about him, played his pieces, and talked to members of the orchestra who remember his unique sound.
You must have known Tom Wetzel then? He recently retired from the MSO and was teaching at UW-Milwaukee but the last time I spoke to him, he was going to retire from there as well.
Do you think you could make a video about using a chair on timpani and physically positioning the timpani to best benefit your technique?
yes! great idea, thanks for your input.
5:40 made me spit out my coffee
yesssssssss
Approaches to timpani vary immensely among individual artists. Look at the amazing differences between outstanding world class timpanists Rainer Seegers and Wieland Welzel, both of the Berlin Philharmonic. They both can be seen in free clips online, with much more available at Digital Concert Hall. In his loud rolls, Wieland lets his index finger come off and to the side of the stick, with the fulcrum being between the thumb and inside of the upper portion of the middle finger, allowing for an amazing rebound, perhaps the highest amplitude achieved by any timpanist I've ever watched! For legato rolls at forte and above, I would opt for the softest mallet and slowest stroke possible, with as little finger pressure on the stick as possible. When there's no time to change mallets and I am using a more articulate mallet, I would use a faster roll speed, but somewhat less dynamic to still blend in with the ensemble. Prof. Richard Hochrainer of the Vienna Philharmonic cautioned against using a roll speed for timpani that was too fast, saying that timpani should never sound like a tuba and always contain the feeling of adding energy and suspense to the sound of the orchestra. Contrast the different styles and sounds of roll playing of Rainer Seegers and Wieland Welzel with those of the US masters, such as Cloyd Duff, Roland Koloff, David Herbert, Vic Firth, Saul Goodman, Jauvon Gilliam, and Edward Stephan. They can all be seen on TH-cam clips.
thanks for these comments owen! i studied with rainer seegers one year at PMF and the amount of sound he got out of a roll was amazing.
Owen, that's an awesome list of timpani masters, showing that there are multiple ways to achieve a consistent, excellent sound. I would also add Joseph Pereira, Don Liuzzi, Tim Genis and, of course, Marinus Komst to the list. We live in a golden age of timpani wizards!
amen. some of my favorite people right there!
Ever considered switching to German grip for rolls? I was taught by an old European guy and for smooth rolls, I used mallets with a harder core but soft cover and heavier towards the player's hands.
This is great! It definitely helps to start with even hands. But on top of this, a bigger challenge is keeping the roll smooth through major dynamic changes. Most of my roll work the last few years has just been 4 measure swells (2up 2down) of gradually more dense rhythms. Obviously some drums/heads make it easier than others to execute :).
yes dynamic changes are so important to work on! glad you got a head start on this and everyone else reading should do these exercises too.
New to the timpani, but enjoyed the video. I also like the way the video is produced, especially the micro editing of dead time between sentences.
thank you!! i have to credit Adam Tan for that!
This was a great video! There were a lot of tips you gave that I'd never even thought about. I really like that you add a bit of fun into the editing of your videos.
thanks june! yeah and i have to give credit where it's due: adam tan (check out his marimba channel) has been editing my videos like a champ.
Great and helpful summary: Speed, Control, Distance, Angle! Thank you!
Thanks Rob! I’m starting to like kind of play timpani, and rolls are one of my weakest points. This video really helped.
oh, i'm glad to hear it! keep practicing. it will get easier.
Me too! Timpini roll is my weakest and i also cannot tune the timpini with my ears
this video is just in time, as I desperately need to work on my timpani rolls ;o)) ... thank you for your time and dedication you put into these videos ... cheers, Jochen
oh good, glad to hear it jochen! hope it helps.
yes it definetly does help. I never thought of lifting my wrist, but that makes a huge difference in sound.
Just think of Galloping Gurdy.
Your job is to merely assist the head's vibration to keep it going and increase the amplitude, not the velocity.
You will get a glorious welling up of sound with nary a headstrike to be heard.
Just learning, thanks for the vid--could have done without some of the silly sound effects, but the information presented here was great, thanks!
sorry! those sound effects are essential for teaching timpani rolls thanks for watching
Play a measure of half notes, quarter notes, quarter note triplets, eighth notes, eighth note triplets, sixteenth notes, sixteenth note fivelets, sixteenth note triplets, and thirty-second notes. Then, slow back down. If you do this across all drums and all pitches, you get a really good feel about what speeds to do where. Saul Goodman proposes something similar in Modern Method for Timpani.
that's great to work on the entire spectrum of roll speed. i basically do that same thing but with stick placement, angle, and control as well. thanks benjamin!
Great video! Really good refresher in the technique since it's been a while since I used to play in college.
Brilliant! I needed this right now. Looking forward to testing it out!!!
excellent. hope the testing went well!!
This is a suggestion, but timpani rolls are just single stroke rolls, and I was playing the snare solo Tornado by Mitch Markovich. Tornado has many parts where it challenges your single strokes, so what I did is that I worked on isolating by just using my fingers (from slow tempos to fast) and getting a solid grip with just the thumb and index finger. After that, I not only could play Tornado, but I had very clean single stroke rolls, perfect for Timpani!
that's a great idea, sebass! my old teacher used to call that cross-training: improving at a technique for one instrument by working on it on another.
Excellent and very helpful! AM sharing with my Studio at Nazareth College :) Thank you, Rob!
thanks so much kristen! i really appreciate it :-D
Thank you Rob, great Video and really helpful!!
Can you develop about crescendos and diminuendos with rolls?
Like do you keep the same speed as you increase the dynamics or not?
yes, good idea! a lot of things change with dynamics including tension, roll speed, angle, etc. you should be ready to adjust all sorts of things.
So damnly hard to find such channel. You're doing a great job helping perc students. Anyway i've turned on the bell, wish u keep making great videos.
so glad you like it!!!
It all depends on the pitch vs size of drum, mallet, head type etc and also what other instruments are doing and how the roll fits into the piece. That is, the purpose of the roll. So for any roll at any given moment you adjust until you get the sound you're looking for. You do have to commit to the mallet type though before you start.
Any chance we could have a timpani technique video? Like developing great French technique in both hands and the most efficient way to practice doing it. I have trouble moving quickly with my left when I play French, at least properly. Once I start going up in tempo, my hand starts slicing and I no longer get the same sound as my right, which comes up and down in a straight path. Any thoughts?
good idea ernesto! i'll think on this and try to make a good video about working on timpani technique.
Beautiful this is what I want to hear.
Slightly late to the party, but there was a trick for articulate notes that my teacher taught me and I was wondering if it is something you came across.
I studied with a former student of Louis Charbonneau (Montreal Symphony), and his trick for differentiating articulate notes from legato notes was that when he needed to articulate, he would use a bit of his middle finger to create a shorter "snap" off the drum head, thereby giving point to the sound. When switching to rolls all he changed was removing the involvement of the fingers and using larger muscle groups in his hands to get a smoother sound. Not sure if this technique is widespread, but around the Montreal area they seem to call it the "Charbonneau Staccato". Thoughts?
i like that it gets its own name!
I watched this video because normally I play timpani for sight reading for uil and normally timpani is either my best or worst for region auditions but in my mind I was like yes this video should really help for region timpani and sight reading but this year there weren’t any rolls in either of the pieces...
Thi was really helpful. Thanks!
Thank you for the great advice! I am an amateur timpanist, occasionally playing baroque cantates by Bach and Graun. I have been asked to play Bach's Weihnachts oratorium. The first chorus, "Jauchzet, frohlocket" has some long rolls. Could you advice me on how to approach these rolls? I use wooden barock mallets. This week my fastest speed is 4 notes a beat at 144 beats per seconds. Should I try double or triple strokes? Should the speed of the roll have any relation with the speed of the written quavers, or should it be completely independent? How can I practice a good transition from the roll into the Jauchzet theme?
LOL 5:42 caught me completely off guard. nice dude
Make a video about timpani technique such as the french grip please.
yes, absolutely i will! i would love to.
I appreciate the suggestion of stick angle. My arms get very sore playing sustained loud rolls. I tens up my neck just as I tell my students NOT to !!!
check out the comment from Doug Perry - he talks about avoiding the "tense up and wail" stage which could be interesting
Great video as always, Rob.
thanks for watching them!!
I have a recital tomorrow. Thanks for the video!
Question though-rolling with rolling mallets and staccato mallets have a difference. Would you mind covering that?
i like to practice it with the most staccato/hard pair of stick I have that way any balance difference between the hands is realy obious. then I practis long roll , short roll like a 5 stroke then enphaciseing the start and end of a roll with a slight accent
great ideas here! practicing with hard sticks for rolls works well. and also good points to work on the beginning and ends of the rolls.
Great tips!
Do you use the French Grip ?
Hola amigo!! How will you recomend me practiceing my single strokes and long rolls without any timpani? Is there any practice pad or something that gets closer to the response of a timpani head? Greetings from Mexico!!
Omar Ibáñez
hi omar! there's really no point to practicing timpani rolls on a practice pad because the sound that the drum makes is so deeply interconnected to how you play the roll that without the sound it's not worth your time. but - even finding a low quality timpani is worth practicing on!
Gracias!!
hi!ROB! is it basically the same way as how to practice the marimba roll?or it it a different method? thanks
these are all things you should work on in your marimba roll - certainly things like stroke speed are super important in marimba playing. you can't angle too far up on the stick on marimba compared with timpani, but it will smooth out the tone in a way with your sound. so... yep! definitely similarities are there.
Wow....this has got to be the best advice and exercises I've found to date! also my flatmate thinks you look like harry potter waving 2 wands...wonder if Hogwarts had a orchestra? consider yourself "subbed" as I want to see what other great tips you got!
haha ok great! yes i came up in my early days conducting the orchestra at hogwarts...
How does height of the timpanist enter the equation? I am 5' 2" and prefer standing while playing.
it's common i think for shorter players to prefer standing while playing. however you will have limitations with pedaling so i definitely recommend getting used to sitting while playing.
I am also 5' 2" (just) and if I have the stool high enough to hit the timps, I can't reach the pedals.....I therefore have to stand unfortunately
awesome dudeeee
Hey Rob! What mics/mic technic were you using here? I'm trying to find good mics for timpani and low register percussion in general. Any suggestions?
i think i used akg 414s. it's been a while since i made the video... i placed them 10-12’ in front of the drums and 8' in the air. i made sure they were at 90 degree angle to each other sort of in the direction towards timpani. i'm not a producer or sound engineer at all - i just made it up. but glad to hear you like the sound!
To me is hard since i can't chill down
From now on when I play timpini rolls I will always think of 1:06
Thanks for that Rob - really very helpful. I got into timpani playing by accident and just learning on the job - no teachers anywhere near me, so I watch videos like yours and practice whenever I can. For making my rolls smoother, I cheat and use soft mallets!
thanks for watching the videos! sounds like you're going about this very proactively and trying to learn a ton in a short amount of time. i think that's common tactic with the timpani rolls - even with the best roll technique, your rolls will sound smoother with softer mallets, so good instincts there. are there any topics you want me to cover as you continue learning online?
Lot of conflicting advice found online - eg make sure heads strike close together/make sure heads strike far apart.... I practised your methods (closer together for articulation and further apart for rolls) and also the different hand heights and grip - think it helped, but I'll persevere. Also have to find the courage not to roll "too fast" and take your advice on slower hitting. Doesn't help that I have no timps to practise on - only at my weekly rehearsal!
yeah, there's lots of conflicting advice because there are lots of ways to play timpani. these are just some new colors that you can use to make different sounds. you should keep experimenting, there's definitely no hard and fast rules - timpani will be played differently from one orchestra to the next.
Nice
Than You!!!!
What You are doing is work.
The average person doesn't realize how hard they can be
2:15
5:43 hahahahaha
I think of it as ringing a bell! Slower lower faster higher! If you get bong, bong it,s great tone but beoowww, yuck! You sound good! Uhh I,m was drilled in the Duff school,, it,s all fingers up to forte then fingers and wrist added to increase the creshendo!
you look like harry potter
Step 1: get some fucking chops and don't be garbage
great to have your input mr. grizzly