Doctor Who's Unmade Celestial Toymaker Story
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ย. 2024
- 'The Nightmare Fair' was to be the season opener of Season 23, Colin Bakers second full season in the role. It was to see the return of The Celestial Toymaker, a villain who hadn't appeared since the 1960s.
Today, we'll explore what the story would have been like, why it was cancelled, and how you can experience the story today.
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I like how in Zagreus, while the Doctors are bemoaning things they never got to do in their lifetimes, Six simply says, "I never got to Blackpool."
Ha! Never heard Zagreus, that’s a nice reference
I'm guessing the fourth doctor moans about missing the opening of the Brighton Pavillion...twice.
@@davidbull7210 Alas it's only Five, Six, and Seven having that discussion. Eight's there too, but as the current Doctor, he doesn't have the same "missed opportunities."
my fav enemy is the wirren from arc in space
@@natsmith303 well, during that conversation, he does, because he thinks he's dead.
The 6th Doctor is way underrated. Having him pitched against the Celestial Toymaker would have been great!
I wouldn't mind if the BBC revived The Nightmare Fair for series 14 2023, set in modern day or 1980s Blackpool with Ncuti Gatwa's 14th Doctor and his companions, that would be cool.
Guess we need to see what happens in The Giggle first
@@TokuWaffle That could've also took place in Blackpool too and have some elements from the Nightmare Fair too for the 60th.
But doesn’t the toymaker no longer exist? The doctor had him erased from existence as his prize for winning the catch game, right?
@@spritedoesit1777Banished from existence or alteast the Existence/reality we live in.
It’s confirmed boys!!! The Toymaker is back!! I’m rewatching this again because of it 😂
I'm wondering if they're going to use this storyline. Did you notice in the Tardis, the new 'coffee maker' - looks like a piece of fairground equipment?
The Toymaker, in my opinion, has always been a good candidate as a villain who could return. I like that he's not just another Time Lord, but a mysterious entity like the Guardians. Like other early villains, he would create a lot of good potential for stories. (What was the War Chief doing during the Time War, for example) I do wish we got more returning antagonists that weren't from the early years of the show, though.
One other thing I noticed- with missing episode rumors continuing to appear, maybe the original Celestial Toymaker has a chance? The Web of Fear plays a role in The Snowmen, which came out just before the recovery of the serial was announced. Wishful thinking perhaps, but who knows?
The Toymaker based on some accounts was a guardian, and he also claimed himself to be one, as he deemed himself to be the aspect of all Toymakers in the universe. But there are also accounts of him being the only Toymaker which Probably isn’t true, as he has a sister who also performs similarly in the board.
Your wish is granted!
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I've been curious, does anyone know or have an analysis on how the Celestial Toymaker has managed to have such a prevalence among the Doctor Who fandom despite only appearing in one, lost serial? I think it's really quite remarkable he's still cited regularly despite all this! The character is so iconic somehow.
Great video btw Josh!!
I think this is the Myth of the Missing Episodes. They’re all “lost classics” until theyre returned and people realise they’re just a normal episode of dr who! Haha
The Toymaker was like the original Master. Charming, exotic, elegant, completely unscrupulous and deadly. The story itself, a deadly version of games with robots, dancing dolls, Cyril as a deadlier Billy Bunter, with the Doctor invisible, intangible and unable to help his companions, perfectly fitted the target audience of the time. It obviously struck a chord, hence the fond memories and desire to repeat it in a sequel.
@@JoshSnares I remember when Tomb of the Cybermen was found, and then released. We'd had it on audio, we'd read the novelisation, and enjoyed them both. And we *knew* how 60s Who was made, and what it generally looked like.
What was released was the exact same story we'd always loved, but people suddenly started complaining that it wasn't that good, and it really annoyed me.
What had they expected to change? Did they think this was going to be the only DW story to magically gain a feature film budget?
I loved it as much as ever, and still do. Some fans aren't happy unless they're complaining.
What the heck? Tomb is brilliant!
An animation to the toymaker's serial will be a great hit, BBC...
i've been hearing whispers, so you never know! (Nothing I would report, not enough evidence. If evidence comes to light, y'all know I'll be telling the whole world babes x)
@@JoshSnares kinda sus... kinda sus...
The fact that the Toymaker is held in high regard and the episodes are missing are not unrelated. Missing episodes stories are always held in high regard because of rose-tinted glasses. Tomb of the Cybermen was long regarded as the best Doctor Who story ever, until the episodes were found. It’s still good, but it’s very debatable that it’s the best. Similar things have been said about Web of Fear, Power of the Daleks and Evil of the Daleks. None of this is meant to imply that The Celestial Toymaker is bad, just that it’s likely not special.
Also, isn’t The Celestial Toymaker just Q from Star Trek, just pre-dating Q by 20 years.
It might be true about Q, being inspired by the Celestial Toymaker, but if that's what happened, it wasn't quite so direct. Q had to be inspired by a different cosmic scale character from ST: TOS, named Trelane, from an episode titled, The Squire of Gothos. That episode debuted 12th January 1967, while the first episode of The Celestial Toymaker first aired less than a year before, on the 2nd of April 1966. Maybe the writer of, The Squire of Gothos , Paul Schneider was a viewer of Doctor Who. For that matter, who's to say that when Gene Roddenberry conceived Q for TNG, he simply took inspiration from both Trelane, as well as The Celestial Toymaker?
On a slightly less related noted, Gene Roddenberry had a character named Gary Seven, who may have been inspired by The Doctor himself. Were the Borg, inspired by The Cybermen? Or did Gene Roddenberry straight up steal these ideas? Say, that's a great idea for a certain TH-camr to explore, for a video essay. Has Star Trek ever taken inspiration/stolen ideas from Doctor Who? Has the reverse ever happened? We can only watch more of your content, Mr. Snares.
@@honesto4696 Art inspires art. However, I highly doubt TOS took much inspiration from Hartnell/Troughton era Who, as the series didn't start running in America until the late 70's, and not nationwide at that. Modern era Who does seem to have taken some inspiration from Trek though - the Nightmare in Silver Cybermen are almost exactly like the Borg in their ability to adapt to new/changing threats and their sharing of a collective conscious.
@@DarkWizard83 I don't have much to disagree with you on. While it's doubtful that Gene Roddenberry or any of his writers were even aware of Doctor Who's existence, that's not to say that it's impossible. Someone could have made a trip to the UK and caught an episode or two. Again, not very likely. But there's definitely been some back in forth in terms of inspiration and possibly even theft. This is all just conjecture on my part. But a more detailed analysis from a fan like Josh, would definitely make for an entertaining video.
I am honestly surprised that the Celestial Toymaker hasn’t come back earlier. I would’ve liked to see the Celestial Toymaker animated.
I would of liked to this episode in Season 23, I really hoping Neil Patrick Harris is play a version the Celestial Toymaker.
It surprises me too!
TBH, the casting makes sense, and NPH could do it 150%.
NPH as the Celestial Toymaker! ..Or the Rani!
The problem, I think, is that while the character was popular in fan circles, he was originally part of a now-lost serial that a) wasn't all that great and b) had some... very problematic elements to it. The show would need to both recap who the heck the Toymaker actually was while preferably not dwelling too much on the outdated aspects of the original story. Which, to be sure, can be done. But it's arguably more work than just doing something else, so not many production teams have bothered to try.
@@pious83 or perhaps even a servant to another of RTD's most infamous monsters,the trickster, especially since the fact Sarah isn't able to stop him anymore,due to obvious reasons
Aaaand the final of the Fourteenth specials will focus on the Celestial Toymaker.
Babe, wake up. New Josh Snares from the Official Josh Snares TH-cam Channel video just dropped.
😎😎😎 thanks ryan
On the DVD box set of The Trial of a Time Lord it is stated that one story for season 23 originally was titled, The Children of January.
Wonderful stuff yet again from you Josh, thank you. I think The Nightmare Fair would’ve worked nicely for Season 25 with Sylvester and Sophie. Especially as we were getting to learn more about the more mysterious and darker side of the Doctor. The Seventh Doctor vs The Toymaker could’ve been a very interesting one indeed.
If you haven't listened to The Magic Mousetrap, you should.
@@Keyboardeater1 no I haven’t, is it any good?
@@markcullen476 Excellent, it really cleverly inverts the 7/Ace/Hex dynamic and turns 7's chessmaster style on its head. Plus it just a price cut - there's a few character beats you'll miss out on if you don't listen to the other 7 and Hex stories, but it's pretty standalone.
Always love hearing about this lost story. Mini me in the 80s would have exploded with excitement if it had been on TV, being a Blackpool local and always going to the Pleasure Beach!
There were a few other plans to bring back the toymaker, which are interesting. There was The Queen of Time, which was something Brian Hayles wanted to do not long after The Celestial Toymaker, introducing basically a female equivalent rather than actually bringing him back. He also developed a story to bring back the Toymaker early in Tom Baker's run, think it was called Eyes of Nemesis or something, I'll have to check. There was also a proposed 30th anniversary story for the Toymaker called Endgame that never happened
He's back!
I find the idea of stories like this, that never got made but have enough there that we can imagine what they'd be like, really fascinating. I think Shada had a similar thing, though I feel like it just about exists enough now that I'm satisfied. I've been to blackpool several times, so I can imagine the Doctor there, but 1980s blackpool would be a little different to the 2010s/2020s blackpool I know, which I think would be one thing no audio or animated version would fully capture in the same way a 1980s filmed version would. I don't much like the celestial toymaker as a serial, but michael gough was great in it, and I'd have loved to have seen him back, as I think he would have been if the story had been made at the time. Just a really interesting what-if.
Shame, the 'evil funfair' setting has always fascinated me and this story would have been right up my street! I wonder if the toymaker would have been re-cast? the potential in the character ,especially in a series like Doctor Who is limitless, I wouldn't be surprise if RTD has made him the main villain of the 60th
There’s a dnd setting called heckna you might live then, it’s an evil funfair setting
The Tomorrow People did a funfair setting in the final storyline of the first season, The Vanishing Earth, where people were kidnapped in a funhouse. Sarah Jane Adventures also has a memorable funfair setting in The Mad Old Woman in the Attic, where Brian Miller (husband of the actress who plays Sarah Jane) appears.
the concept of a video game with creatures that can kill you is a pretty broad concept, but it would be part of the christopher eccleston ravagers story for big finish! a fun little thing.
The Big Finish companion chronicles story 'Solitaire' pits Charley Pollard against the Toymaker, played by David Bailie. It's one of their best (of which there are many).
Not even joking, it baffles me how they had this perfect villain who is a god, I get the gimmick could get old, but only 1 story really?
The unmade Toymaker story I want to see is the original script, which was reported to be a more sinister battle of wits between The Doctor and the Toymaker, rather than the companions involved in dull games
Return of the King
The Celestial Toymaker has been my favourite story ever since I saw Episode 4 on Lost In Time, so seeing such a big resurgence for the character is gratifying
It's a shame it wasn't made in the 80s, because Michael Gough, who had originally played the Toymaker, was still alive, and I believe it was the intention that he should reprise the rôle.
I recall 'The Final Test' being returned and, at the time, this was very much regarded as some form of classic. I certainly read the novelization with that in mind, every morning, with crumpets.
People really wanted him to return during Capaldi's run. Sadly he only appeared in a comic christmas special.
Best Doctor Who content on TH-cam. Another fun and informative Josh Snares production!
I once wrote a fan episode, where the Toymaker appears in a Christmas special, where it turns out some of the toys delivered for Christmas were victims of the Toymaker
"Cold War" - the Black Guardian and the Celestial toymaker decide to play a trilogic game against each other. To fulfill their need for chaos and for amusement, they contrive to place the doctor, 2 companions, 3 monoids, 3 sensorites, 3 mechonoids, and 3 daleks all on the same planet, on which the groups must perform an insane childish absurd scavenger hunt, but each time either the BG or the CT moves a piece, it changes the location of one of the scavenger hunt items unless it has been found already. The BG meddles with the outcome by offering 1 member of each group, including 1 companion, whatever bribe is needed for them to betray their own team, while the CT meddles with the outcome by randomly routinely moving a rubix-cube like toy one move to give a random person in each group a relevant strategic idea suddenly. The grand prize is the Tardis, which is on the planet behind and within a force field.
Just an idea I had a long time ago that features the Celestial Toymaker. Originally it was for a tabletop adventure but I'm putting it here because I welcome fanfiction. The Celestial Toymaker really REALLY needs to come back, especially and specifically because so little of that story survives.
I think I speak for the entire fandom regarding this story when I say...CURSE YOU MICHAEL GRADE! In any case, had it been me, I'd have just gone ahead and let the Doctor say, "I'll take you to Blackpool."
The first Doctor Who Target book not based on a story broadcast on TV was Turlough and the Earthlink Dilemma in 1986
I would love to see him come back, though not necessarily played by Neil Patrick Harris. Maybe Tom Hidddleston if he wanted to have some more fun on TV. Or perhaps someone like Anton Lesser who could radiate quiet, sardonic menace.
I didn't even know that Doctor Who came so close to cancellation at that time, great editing btw.
I think you nailed it at the end, you like the concept and potential of the toymaker moreso than what we've actually gotten wit him so far
Ngl, this Season 22 and a half is one of my all time faves. Not just the stories but the mystery surrounding the ones we don't have. Add onto that the lost Season 22 stories that Big Finish incorporated into it, and you genuinely have a solid run of stories where the Sixth Doctor and Peri are two best friends really having fun. Leviathan is an example of a story that just hits every mark, with a twist even I didn't see coming. Point of Entry is a comedy masterpiece at times, full of jokes. If NPH is playing the Toymaker, which does seem highly likely, then I hope it brings a wave of fans to this mysterious corner of the show who knew nothing about it before. Thanks for this video.
wow i'm surprised you got a documentary of this quality out so quickly!
I run purely on adrenaline and Diet Coke
It seems like every time classic Who dabbled with bringing back the Toymaker, the show went on "hiatus." I was curious about these proposed episodes and read the Target book and listened to the BF version. They are an interesting "what if" though they still feel like they have the excesses that were criticized in season 22 on full display.
fun fact its not the first time that the Celestial Toymaker was pinned to a special in an episode that was meant to be an early idea for Who's 30th annivesary special called Endgame had the Toymaker being the one kidnapping the Doctors earlier selves.
With the Toymaker returning, it’s a shame we most likely won’t get an animation of the original story. It’s always been one that’s fascinating to me and the trialogic games are really something that deserve a visual medium. Would have been really good marketing to release an animation of the original appearance of the Toymaker before he returns.
the big finish one they based on the story was ok . Also Remember a comic with Capaldi where he meet the celestial toymaker which was pretty cool as I remember.
The one story I would love to have seen and one Colin said he wanted to film.
Wonderful work Josh, thank you for sharing this video with us! I’m sure it was a lot of work - and nobody does it like you!
love youuuuuuu 💕💕
I think part of the reason for the Toymaker's popularity is that, despite the fact he's incredibly powerful, he's obsessed with toys and games, and on top of that he's really petty. His 'toys' are encouraged to cheat, the games are often rigged in some way, and there's no real way to win - beat him and you're still doomed!
Plus, he really gives the First Doctor a hard time! By this point the Doctor wasn't shy in standing up to baddies and calling them out on their crap. When he tries it with the Toymaker, he's quickly put in his place. It's nice to see the Doctor on the back foot with a plan, it means he has to think his way out.
It all comes together to make him seem like a truly credible, and unpredictable, threat. Which is something the Doctor is seldom up against.
Great video as always Josh. I want to make a recon of it, just so we can have a recon of a recon of a recon!
There is an animated Season 23 in progress, a fanmade project by Black Glove Studio.
Really interesting facts about this story! Thanks so much for creating quality content. I will have to give this story a listen.
It's a great shame the season was cancelled would of been interesting to see how the 6th Doctor went story wise.
If the rumours are true and the Celestial Toymaker is coming back i'm dreading it esp how current NuWho is. From the picture all I imagine is and over the top Evil Geppetto type character all that's missing are painted on rosey cheeks lol. I could be totally wrong but we will see.
if i was writing the Toymakers return for the November 2023 specials, I'd include this blackpool lost story in it somehow by having the Toymaker mention he defeated the Doctor there and the Doctor saying that he didnt remember that, with the Toymaker saying thats because the Toymaker won and erased his memory.
I love how the new series are gradually tying together the eternals into low key recurring villains. Much more satisfying than even my other favourites like the Judoon or the Raxicoricophalipitorians. And having them as vaguely defined super beings leaves it open to more creativity than something like the cybermen or Davros stories. Personally I find he Celestial Toymaker to be a little boring as a story, but having it be the retroactive introduction of the eternals adds an extra dimension
Josh, thankyou for explaining why they never picked up these stories when they came back. I have always wondered that
I was surprised to hear Michael Gough was in Doctor Who as I always knew him as Alfred Pennyworth in the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher Batman films.
That’s where I knew him from too! Lots of love for his performance
I mainly knew him for the schlocky British horror movies he did in the 60s,like Horrors in the Black Museum and Konga.
Josh you are quickly becoming a new favorite of mine here on YT. I’m wondering if the Target versions of the three stories would be better experiences than the audios, and if they are easily…”available” somewhere.
Now you got me all excited over this Toymaker dude! Great video Josh. I never knew this unused script existed. 🙂
Target published the novelisation of this years ago Will mate.
An interesting take on the character of The Celestial Toymaker was the novel Divided Loyalties. In the original TV show there was a passing line that hinted the CT and The Doctor may have met before. The first part of the story fills us in on this, with an encounter with the first Doctor whilst he was still a young man at the academy. Later the 5th Doctor has to face the consequences of that earlier encounter. It’s also revealed that the CT was a third Guardian, along with the Black and White Guardians. The bit that annoyed me was that the first Doctors companions from the Academy that got involved were revealed at the end to be none other that the Master, the Rani, the Meddling Monk and the War Chief - which a bit silly and too much of an obvious thing to do. But it wasn’t a bad book.
This is very interesting. What a pity that so many stories were abandoned! I'd really like to read the novel if I can find any. Thanks for the video.
Brilliant! I just picked up the Big Finish version based on your video. Your Who videos are always so well done, Josh!!
Thank you for this video. This was one of my more favorite stories. Thank goodness we got the novelized script at least. So, what about Divided Loyalties?...🤔
I think quite often when there were announcements saying A, B and C would be in a story, you began to sense it might actually be a bit of a mess. Certainly I think the eventual Season 23 became a double-edged sword, in cutting away what had happened and providing an ongoing commentary on real events behind the scenes. Which I guess is why it still intrigues fans to this day - and largely outraged plenty at the time.
This was great. Didn't know most of this.
Incidentally, I'm pretty sure the half-nonfiction/ half-fiction book "The Scientific Secrets of Doctor Who" has a story with the 6th Dr. visiting that Blackpool fair.
I didn't realize it was a reference.
Very cool, if I'm remembering correctly.
Josh, this video is brilliant. You just get better and better. This video is stylish and slick, thank you for it.
The final story - according to accepted mythology - was going to be The Children of January but little is known about it. Levine has always maintained it was Gallifrey.
Yeah, there’s more evidence to say Children of Jan, but who knows. Both stories were discussed so close to cancellation!
Honestly the idea that the Toymaker may very possibly be returning excites me greatly! I feel like this is a character with a lot of potential, Can You Hear Me? even mentioning him as on a similar level to the Eternals and Guardians. And I think Neil Patrick Harris is the perfect choice for the role, I can't wait to see what the Toymaker (if he is, and it does look likely) will be up to this time...
This would make such a great episode! I’ve listened to the audio and read the target novelisation but would love to see it on screen, what a missed opportunity. Also love the channel Josh always great content 😃
If he actually did appear in the 60tu anniverarys I would be so excited, I loved this villian and excited how he would set things up for the doctor(s)
An excellent summing up. Thank you for posting this.
Loved the Big Finish audio drama, a great imaginative story.
Excellent video.
Really rooting for nph to be playing the toymaker. I watched part 4 of celestial toymaker on my copy of lost in time so much as a kid, i'd love to see the character come back just 57 years later.
Fascinating video, found the audio a bit meh, but like the idea of the toymaker
Great piece of work, Josh. So well produced, punchy, concise and visually interesting💯👏
Thank you :)
I would love to see a quality attempt at doing colin bakers lost season in animated form.
I enjoyed that video, Josh. I knew some of that stuff but not all - like about Ian Levine's recon! Great work as always!
there was a Doctor Who comic with the 11th or 12th doctor encounter the Celestial Toymaker ,& reveal the "Toy Room" is near it death do to it age so the Doctor helps by putting the Tarbis's Zero Room around the "Toy Room" it being the Toymaker's safe room ,,
This is amazing. I never knew this story thanks for sharing it and all the effort you put in.
Just started cooking, this couldn't have come along at a better time!
i was worried this upload time would benefit nobody, but I'm happy it's working out! 😂💕
You're telling me there was going to be a story set in Singapore called "Yellow Fever"?
The full name is yellow fever and how to cure it. (if that makes it any better)
Yeah, it’s a nightmare. Written by Talons of Weng Chiang author Robert Holmes. So you can just imagine how insensitive it would have been. I have no interest in it!
Not enough was written in order to say how horrible it is. All that’s known is that they were going to film in Singapore. JNT even went location scouting there. It would have likely happened. I doubt that would have been the final title.
I totally enjoyed reading the Nightmare Fair. The story suggests that the Celestial Toymaker can change his appearance which would open up the character to being played by other thespians.
Great documentary Josh! I actually do have the novel of this story. I think it would be a good story for television if they did it. I will say if Neil Patrick Harris is playing The Celestial Toymaker, I think he would be a good fit in the role.
I liked The Celestial Toymaker as a villain, and the story was pretty interesting. It's a shame we never got to see The Nightmare Fair. It could have been an excellent story and now we'll really never know. Looking back now, however, I can't help wincing at the implications of a white man dressed in traditional Chinese clothes acting as a villain. Thank you for taking us on another little adventure through Doctor Who's history, Josh! :-)
Terrific video as usual.
Pretty sure I’m in love with Josh Snares.
Outstanding piece of work, thank you!
Your videos are always so well made, Josh!
This is awesome! Thanks for uploading
Nicely done, Josh. Really good stuff.
It’s always a good day when you upload
Ian levine ain't ever giving those recons up seeing as he really doesn't like Doctor Who anymore
love to have seen this....was looking forward to it in 86.
Absolutely brilliant video as always!
someone should animate this lost gem, we have the audio and I would love to see it on screen for good!
With the Season 22 box set about to come out, they could have done an animation using the Big Finish audio and included it as a bonus feature. However, the box set is already out in England and so it's a bit late to be thinking of that. We don't get the set until September last I heard. I would like to see some of these episodes animated though. 6 and Peri had such great chemistry, it's a pity they only really got 1 and a half seasons together on screen. There's plenty of audio adventures though and both Colin and Nicola still seem happy to return to the roles (Nicola could probably play the role on screen again now and it'd be like no time had passed, she's hardly aged a day). Given 6 being such a colourful character, maybe a Doctor Who animated series following this TARDIS team could be something special.
Great video! Thanks for letting me appear 😊
Thank YOU! 💕
Great video as always... missed these :)
Amazing as always 💜
Nice vid, Josh. Thank you.
Josh, You did it again! I wish the Rani came back!
We can only dream 😌
Good to see you back!
Thanks for a well researched and very informative article.
I've listened to the audio version of The Nightmare Fair. I fell asleep and don't remember anything about it.
It is a bit of a snooze fest!
Agreed. It didn't impact on me and Colin's audios are pretty decent. He had the better scripts along with McGann compared to McCoy and Davison at the time.
I always imagined the Toymaker was a rogue Eternal, the same with Light from Ghostlight. They both fit the MO, bored, loving games and dressing up, and using humans as playthings to pass eternity.
The Toymaker also has the (dis?)honour of being in the only Doctor Who episode that drops an N-bomb with a hard 'r'.
Josh, it goes without saying, but - you’re the best!
thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuu