15:35 My take on Vancian magic is that when you prepare one or more casting of a spell you're basically charging that spell up, like loading a crossbow, so you can later discharge it with a single action. It's not that you forget how to make an egg salad sandwich; you just don't have any more ingredients prepared and portioned out to assemble another.
I started with OD&D in 76. Your point about the Monster Manual predating the PHB is a good one. ANd yeah we didnt want to play the "Baby" Basic D&D. We *were* too cool for that. So here is how it worked for us: When the MM came out, there were a lot of stats that made no sense without the context of the PHB and DMG. So for a couple of years there was a weird mash-up game that we played using the brown books + magazine articles + Whatever AD&D books were available. And just to *really* weird it up, I cherry picked a lot of stuff from Hargrave's Arduin books. I tell you, the fury, energy and argument that arose from the release of each AD&D book would make forum feuds of the Information Age seem positively tame.
I am a couple of generations after you, but I had a similar experience. We started with AD&D and then in 2000 the 3rd edition PHB came out but not the other books. As the DM of our group I spent a lot of time trying to use 2nd edition monsters and magic items in a 3rd edition game. The worst bit was experience points since they did not match up at all. Ironically once the MM came out I was very disappointed in how they put it together and I actually just kept on using my modified AD&D monsters.
Discovering this video over a year after having purchased Strongholds & Followers (and nearly a year into backing Kingdoms & Warfare) feels delightful and enlightening! Like I've been shown the spark behind it!
Ross McDowall, FYI I can't reply to your comments for some reason. They are missing the "reply" option. I'm still keen to fight a goblin in every edition as I think it would be even more illuminating.
Should be able to reply now, some mystery google plus setting messes it up without letting me know, thanks for the heads up. Look forward to the Goblin videos too if you get to them, is there an ETA on 2nd Edition? It's one I'm actually familiar with so looking forward to it
mites are a type of creature. they are basically the goblin's goblin. in pathfinder they have +2 to hit and do 1d3-1 damage on their best option. they do have at will prestidigitation tho.
Makes me very happy that everything you mentioned here as something you loved (rules for this or that, dragon magazine, the Illrigger, etc) is now in some way or another an MCDM product. You made it happen, man!
When I first started playing in 1979, we were all 12ish, we thought that the Morningstar was similar to a shuriken and pretty much threw them at every monster we encountered.
Ha! I used to have similarly mistaken ideas about "Glaives", because I was more familiar with the legendary weapon by that name from the movie Krull. Edit: double Ha! That actually came up in the video, that's what I get for commenting before finishing.
I kind of nostalgic about the frailty of these old school characters and the fact that they were basically normal people that were favored/or not by the dice. When the village elder says that you shouldn't explore the cave and that you will almost certainly die there, he's right. If you survive then you really *are* a hero.
Weapons causing more damage to large creatures makes fighters more effective against larger creatures. If you just reduced their hit points, then a wizard's fireball would become even more effective than it already is. Weapons are not the only things that cause damage.
The jack vance system works very well when you understand it. The reason you lose the memory of the spell is because the spell itself, during memorization would have stored mystical energy in them. Once used that energy would be used as a "door" to allow magical energy into the world for the spell to take effect. once cast that energy is used so the spell is lost. You must re-memorize it.
The "level" thing might never have been a problem to you but, oftentimes when explaining it to new players, it took a while to explain that the terms did not have a direct correspondence. (Ex: "Why my 3rd level character can't cast 3rd levels spells, this sounds weird!") This is why I've used the AD&D terminology instead of Spell Level even after migrating for 3rd edition (and later Pathfinder).
I hadn't realized that 5e is so recent. Been thinking why I hadn't gotten in D&D earlier but since english is not my native tongue, I wouldn't have understood half that's said in these earlier editions when I was a kid.
@@WMfin I was "introduced" to D&D 2e by Baldur's Gate. The game was translated in french, and believe it or not, I actually used the game itself as a rule book for my sessions because I couldn't find anything better.
@@WallySketch oh wow! Closest to this was me and my friend making our own rules to play with Warhammers but to plan out rules from game mechanics, nice!
@@WMfin Seriously ? I did it too !! I played Chaos (Slaanesh) in Warhammer 4e to 6e so I already had a lot of minis for badguys. I've been the eternal DM since ! I struggled with Warhammer combat system, it wasn't that good for role playing, so I transitioned to "baldur's gate" system without even knowing it was actually D&D.
Man, I really wish you’d come back and revisit this series in some form or fashion. I know you have a ton on your plate now, but the history and discussion of the game is super interesting.
It's awesome how these games evolve. I didn't get into D&D until 3rd edition. But it was these old editions I remember seeing my uncle play, with the fascinating cover art.
The astounding thing to me is that TSR actually started publishing *adventures* for AD&D before the Dungeon Master’s Guide was out. And that wasn't a small thing! The "to hit" tables were in there. You either had to run your own homebrew or get a sneak-peek article from Dragon magazine. TSR--they were always a crazy garage band, even once they had money.
Gygax is a Swiss family name (pronounced kickaks) which may explain why Gary was fascinated by polearms - the principle weapon of the Swiss infantry (mercenary) formation. E.g. the lucerne hammer literally refers to the city Lucerne in Switzerland.
Does anyone else remember an alignment matrix where the first half was how your character views the universe (is it organized by laws or is it formed in chaos) and the second was how your character viewed people (are people inherently good or evil)?
Love the videos but completely disagree on Charisma. My groups have found Charisma to be extremely important. Not only does Charisma affect the number and loyalty of retainers, it also affects Reaction rolls. In my experience, players often seek to parley with monsters if they can't sneak past them and don't have to fight them. Bonuses (or penalties) on Monster Reaction rolls make a huge difference.
Agreed. Things in AD&D don't matter only if you start ignoring rules. For example, my first DM did not roll reaction rolls and did not allow followers, so Charisma was useless in his game - but that wasn't AD&D's fault.
Wish there was more of these.. I've watched alot of these DnD guys talk about DnD. These are the best I've seen. Really should complete the series. Like it was said below me.. I could listen to this guy talk about DnD all day.
Its kind of crazy to hear you talking about the illrigger and these follower charts years ago and see where you are today. Congrats Matt, you're making it!
My very first DM used the AD&D Monster Manual with the original rules (+ Greyhawk) before this book came out. I can remember the DMG being so expensive that it was actually cheaper for us to use the photocopiers in the university library to copy the book than buy it outright.
The Mite is from the Fiend Folio (which got it from White Dwarf #6) which is a kind of Gremlin-like creature that waylay adventurers in dungeons/tunnels.
I’ve gone back to these since you’re most recent contribution, fantastic content - I hope one day you’ll find the time/desire to give us your thoughts on the economy game of D&D
Watching in 2021 with Strongholds and Followers in development in my kitchen as the snow falls and just popping in to say this rules and appreciating the journey from this to the work of MCDM today, thank you for making stuff that gets my D&D brain excited :)
The weapon adjustment chart was a bonus to hit against the listed AC along the top. It made it interesting but it also was an extra check and added time to use this chart, unless people wrote the adjustments for each of their weapons on their sheet. Also, it was complicated further because this was against the raw AC not any adjusted for dex.
I really miss all those follower charts, and hirelings, and henchmen. A fighter in the hands of a smart player was one of the most powerful classes when you start using that gold for hirelings, henchmen, and kitting them out. Thanks for these videos Matt.
I'm pretty sure the damage increase isn't for attacking larger creatures, but rather if a Large creature has a Large version of that weapon, it does that damage
You made me so happy. As soon as you said glaive I got the biggest smile and was transported in time. Why yes I had more than one character throw a glaive. Have the best day.
When I first played D&D in 2014, my DM would only run AD&D (its what he played as a teen). Our character rolling was three arrays of 4d6 drop the lowest. January 2015, I had recently gotten the 5e PHB and started making characters... I rolled up three characters the same way and it took SOOOOOO long! Seriously, just rolling was over an hour. I haven't enjoyed rolling for stats since.
Hi Matt. I’ve just come across this series and I really enjoy it. To answer your question about bows and weapon proficiencies (i am an archer as a hobby) - these weapons would differ in small but significant ways technically, but the basic principles are the same. The biggest differences would be how they were used - on foot for longbows, whereas shortbows are more useful on horseback, for example. The actual practical differences would be in draw-weight, which doesn’t really relate to the whole long/short debate anyway. So i would personally say that you had the stated WP adjustment in one bow type and half that in all the others. But hey, Gary probably never picked up a bow or sword in his life, so i for one forgive him!
FYI at our table (we were 6 in average every weekend in the 80s) we used weapon speed factor when calculating initiative... so now you can say you know of someone who used it. Fantastic videos thanks!!!
As a person who was raised on listening to old prog rock, I love the fact that you mentioned Emerson and Wakeman :D and ofc great series, just watching it from the beginning ;)
FIRST real campaign I played in, a buddy of mine was rolling a fighter. Snagged, a 18 Strength.... Instantly.... Oooos and Ahhhhs with the percentile roll! He drops the first dice, it was a 0. We were like... "Bummer dude." Then he drops the second dice, a 0! It was pandemonium and chaos! He named his character, MONGO. He was BRUTAL with that 18/00 Strength! Man... good times....
14:07 "You will find no pretentious dictums herein, no baseless limits arbitrarily placed on female strength [...]" 18:45 Strength Table I, listing in detail maximum strength for male and female characters per species. ;) Yeah, I know, it's probably just a reference table, especially when considering NPCs, but still.
"Frogdriks Campaign that he's running in germany" Love hearing these accurate german names, spoken in my native tounge. Nah, but I am here in 2021 and still loving those videos :D
When we played 2nd edition, we used the Initiative modifiers ("speed factors"). Although my understanding was always that no matter how high your initiative was, your action never went into the next round. I no longer have my 2nd ED books so I can't check, but that might have been a house rule. We also did use the "spell fizzles if you don't get it off in time" since it's specifically covered in the Initiative examples of the 2nd ED combat rules.
Agree that you miss the reaction and retainer based mechanics for CHA as pointed out elsewhere. That's a big part of Moldvay gameplay. In addition, the real reason you want to raise Duncan III's STR using the point buy system is that he has a -10% XP penalty due to his Prime Requisite being below 9. That is more crippling than the hand-to-hand combat penalties. He's still hosed with a bow, though.
Great video. More nostalgia and pleasant memories. I totally remember the glaive from Krull and thinking the same thing. Get this... I honestly though a mace was small can you sprayed in someones eyes to blind them. No joke. I was only 11 or 12, and google wasn't a thing....Lol. Keep up the awesome videos!
IIRC, from reading the retro-clone the Big Brown Book, the weapon vs armor class is your thac0 adjustment vs that armor type. So, if you are using a Battle Axe, when attacking someone unarmored (AC 10) you get +2 to hit, and if you are attacking someone wearing full plate (AC 2) you get -3 to hit. Essentially, a Battle Axe is better at hitting someone wearing anything other than metal armor. Notice, Lances are +3 vs AC 2 (piercing weapons penetrate armor better than slashing weapons), and the Morning Star does an average +1 against most types of AC (blunt weapons do well regardless of armament). Not too different from damage resistances for Skeletons and Zombies. Skelly's resist slashing, Zombies resist blunt, both resist piercing.
At my cousins place in the mid 1980s, I rolled a natural 18 (00). Rolled the zero zero in two separate rolls of a d10. First roll a zero. But now we have incredible tension. Because I had a 9 out of 10 chance of rolling super low and a 1 in 10 change of mega-fighter-ultra-bingo. Bam! The second zero is rolled. Cheers. Shouting. I still remember it like it was yesterday.....Just as I remember the looks of "yeah, right, sure" when I tried to take this character to another table with different players.
I love watching these videos now after several more years, and lots more popularity, of D&D 5e. I started playing in 1983 at age 10 with the D&D Basic Set (the 1978/81 pre-"Red Box" version) and avoided AD&D until 2nd edition in college. My friends and I thought "Basic" D&D was better because it was more flexible and easier to read than AD&D. Sure elf was a class, but we had all sorts of elves in our games. We didn't want to get into the complexity, and expense of those hardcover books, in AD&D. And the 1st edition AD&D books are a disaster to read or make sense of the rules. Way too small print, very text heavy, and not having all of the character creation in the Player's Handbook just bogged things down. We wanted to get into the action and storytelling fast. Basic D&D, along with Expert, Companion, & Master sets, let us play faster, easier, and more flexible all through high school.
Very cool idea and loving the videos. Just getting caught up. When you are done you should have each version fight a Kobold and record that for each version of your fighter ;)
Polearms were important in the dungeon, in a 10 ft. hallway the fighter and the cleric could hold the hallway and the second rank could attack the foes in front of the fighter and the cleric. Fighting in the hallway allowed the smaller number of party members to fight against a larger force.
I definitely used weapon speed and attack bonuses vs. armour class! 😆 But yeah - we would bounce back and forth between getting deep into rules (encumbrance!) and just playing it by ear often in the same campaign.
I also used the weapon speeds and attack bonuses vs. armor class when I played 1ed back in the mid-late 80's! It was a pain, but added a level of variation between weapons.
Very cool idea and loving the videos. Just getting caught up. When you are done you should have each version fight a Kobold and record that for each version of your fighter.
From 1979 - 1989 I found method 1 for stat creation seemed to be by far the most used in groups I played in (from Canada to Texas). We just accepted that opening doors was on a d6 and BB/LG were percentile dice. In retrospect, I know that we valued each slight difference in stat, and the percentile score for BB/LG helps make a (ridiculously small) difference between, for example, a 10 and a 15 strength.
Charisma was important! The Reaction Roll (p. X23 of the Expert book) was modified by Charisma, so it mattered when it came to finding out how monsters and NPCs reacted to the Player Characters. A penalty to Charisma could have meant a group of monsters attacked immediately instead of negotiating. And with the deadliness of Moldvay B/X, that could be the difference between survival and a TPK.
It's amazing how some little tidbits have still got carried over to the 5th edition - like for example, the plate armor still costs 1400 gold, probably - as Matt mentioned - because someone wrote Gary a letter or he read something in a book and decided - in between of putting all the polearms in the rules - that plate armor is super expensive all of a sudden. In fact, it's exactly 1400 of gold expensive. And it's still a thing 40 year later.
Hey, I finally get why in WoW the ballista type siege weapon called a 'Glaive Thrower' shoots a huge starlike thing instead of a pole arm. They must have watched that movie Crawl and never looked up what a real glaive looks like.
As we learned talking to Old Geezer at the RPGSite, a lot of those strangly-weak skills (Thief Skills) and abilities (Ranger, Exceptional STR) were actually I WIN checks in actual play; everyone could move quietly, but only Thieves could literally Move Silently (and as "no sound AT ALL"). Likewise, everyone could attempt to squeeze through/crowbar their way past barred gates but Bend Bars were literally that specific power. You mentioned _Playing at the World_, so you should be well aware of this being the case.
I scrolled through and didn’t see anyone else comment on this: the other big boost for Fighters over other classes is that they attacked once per level per round against foes of less than 1 HD. That is to say all human troops, all kobolds, and all goblins other than chiefs and their bodyguards. (See the footnote under the fighter/Ranger/paladin attacks per round table after the Paladin entry.) Since the 1E design had masses of those as threats for some of time this was a significant bonus: fighters were the first official Mook Sweepers, and a 5th level fighter could reliably take out 3 “rabble” per round, round after round. Yes this didn’t help against more skilled opponents, but from levels 1-5 it’s a big damn boost, and again when you’re 9th level and leading troops in combat.
i loved the idea of henchmen/followers, and when 3ed came along, it had the leadership feat, which was the same thing in a new form. never got to play with it much, but it was great for making heroes out of your murderhobos, and it came with the price of having to support them to keep them. the weapon speed factors are covered in the DMG, p. 66. Bonus vs AC is against the base armor type that grants that AC. i never knew anyone who used them, but they could change some combats radically.
In my understanding it's not just the training that makes the war horse cost so much but their quality breeding and individual temperament. Prices of horses could vary in multipliers of hundreds I think. In medieval times that is. I also kind of understand going crazy with polearm types though in my homebrew I rule them all basically the same including great sword (which I separate from two - handed sword). 😂
Something funny about your point on glaives, my first D&D was the 1995 reprint of AD&D 2nd Edition (the one with the cover that looks like Conan kicking in a door.) I don't know if they did it in the earlier versions, but this one has considerably more illustrations with a whole chart of what all the weird-sounding polearms look like so my first introduction to a glaive was it's proper form.
In the 90s a friend of mine wrote a paper explaining how to use the infinite agricultural land available with all the alternate planes to build an egg-selling empire.
I have played in campaigns where the weapon proficiency was each single weapon name and others where it was more the weapon type. I.E. bows, axes, single handed swords, two handed swords,pole arms, pole axes, spears, throwing weapons, maces, hammers, picks, etc... There was some discussion about what was considered each of these but generally if you could use a short bow you could use a long bow and if you could use a short sword you could use a scimitar or a broad sword, etc...
If you look carefully through the weapon damage list, you'll see a few here and there, such as the hand axe, that does less damage vs large creatures. Axe hand/throwing vs s/m: 1-6, vs L: 1-4. Saw this at 58:17
Hand/Throwing Axe , Bec De Corbin, Bo Stick, Club, Dagger, Dart, Lucern Hammer , Hammer, Jo Stick, Footman's Mace, Horseman's Mace, Morning Star, etc... all do less damage vs Large opponents. I think there's a pattern here, mostly with blunt and small weapons.
Great videos and I have 3 observations Unearthed Arcana bought in new rolls for humans, for a fighter select best 3 of 9d6 for strength, 7d6 for Dex and 8d6 for Constitution. The big change from some methods is that class choice determines the die rolls rather than the other way round. I disagree that THACO (To Hit Armour Class 0) is complicated. Given you simply take the die roll from your THACO to work out which AC was hit e.g THACO 20 Die roll 16 hit AC 4 or worse. This is especially easy for fighters (if you smooth the combat tables improvement from to 2 every 2 levels to 1 every 1) as you can take their level from 21 to get their base and then adjust with to hit modifiers. But each to his own. The secondary skills were depending on the particular dungeon master either replaced or complimented by the Craftsmen Skills in the Dungeoneers Survival Guide (1986) in the groups I play(ed) in
We played AD&D a few years back and we did use the weapon speed, but we didn't play it that you swung and then hit half way thru the next round, we just made the slower weapons hit later in the round than the faster.
I know people have mentioned the origins of Strongholds and Followers, but I also checked out a copy of that Plethora of Paladins article, and if you look at the Arrikhan (NE), you'll notice it has a very specific level title... Beastheart. Clever.
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Amazing to see that at about 42:00 when Matt starts drooling over follower tables, this would be the groundwork for Strongholds & Followers.
He did it multiple times in the first few videos. Clearly something he missed and wanted to do for a long time.
Or the Illrigger.
Sooo... watching The Chain in 2019 and watching these old videos for the first time and the Illrigger pops up... hmmm...
"I apologize for the delay..."
Oh Colville.
LOL, I just got here. Looks like the series was somewhat regularly updated until part 7, though.
Around 44:00, I believe is the true beginnings for the strongholds kickstarter campaign.
15:35 My take on Vancian magic is that when you prepare one or more casting of a spell you're basically charging that spell up, like loading a crossbow, so you can later discharge it with a single action. It's not that you forget how to make an egg salad sandwich; you just don't have any more ingredients prepared and portioned out to assemble another.
That’s actually how it’s described in the 3rd edition player’s handbook
I started with OD&D in 76. Your point about the Monster Manual predating the PHB is a good one. ANd yeah we didnt want to play the "Baby" Basic D&D. We *were* too cool for that. So here is how it worked for us: When the MM came out, there were a lot of stats that made no sense without the context of the PHB and DMG. So for a couple of years there was a weird mash-up game that we played using the brown books + magazine articles + Whatever AD&D books were available. And just to *really* weird it up, I cherry picked a lot of stuff from Hargrave's Arduin books.
I tell you, the fury, energy and argument that arose from the release of each AD&D book would make forum feuds of the Information Age seem positively tame.
I am a couple of generations after you, but I had a similar experience. We started with AD&D and then in 2000 the 3rd edition PHB came out but not the other books. As the DM of our group I spent a lot of time trying to use 2nd edition monsters and magic items in a 3rd edition game. The worst bit was experience points since they did not match up at all. Ironically once the MM came out I was very disappointed in how they put it together and I actually just kept on using my modified AD&D monsters.
Discovering this video over a year after having purchased Strongholds & Followers (and nearly a year into backing Kingdoms & Warfare) feels delightful and enlightening!
Like I've been shown the spark behind it!
I was watching it just now and had the exact same thought!
Ross McDowall, FYI I can't reply to your comments for some reason. They are missing the "reply" option.
I'm still keen to fight a goblin in every edition as I think it would be even more illuminating.
Should be able to reply now, some mystery google plus setting messes it up without letting me know, thanks for the heads up.
Look forward to the Goblin videos too if you get to them, is there an ETA on 2nd Edition? It's one I'm actually familiar with so looking forward to it
This is still a really good idea.
mites are a type of creature. they are basically the goblin's goblin. in pathfinder they have +2 to hit and do 1d3-1 damage on their best option. they do have at will prestidigitation tho.
Please do!
Any chance of 4th & 5th edition videos?
First comment of 2020 letting you know that this series is still good
@Mike Tate Beginning of 2021. Still great
Halfway through 2021 this is a good video(edit: series)
Late 2021 still good
Still good at the beginning of 2022.
Still good in early 2023.
Makes me very happy that everything you mentioned here as something you loved (rules for this or that, dragon magazine, the Illrigger, etc) is now in some way or another an MCDM product.
You made it happen, man!
When I first started playing in 1979, we were all 12ish, we thought that the Morningstar was similar to a shuriken and pretty much threw them at every monster we encountered.
Ha! I used to have similarly mistaken ideas about "Glaives", because I was more familiar with the legendary weapon by that name from the movie Krull.
Edit: double Ha! That actually came up in the video, that's what I get for commenting before finishing.
Any chance of finishing this series? I found it quite illuminating.
He just released a new one!
Yep, a new video in the series just got released!
I kind of nostalgic about the frailty of these old school characters and the fact that they were basically normal people that were favored/or not by the dice. When the village elder says that you shouldn't explore the cave and that you will almost certainly die there, he's right. If you survive then you really *are* a hero.
Weapons causing more damage to large creatures makes fighters more effective against larger creatures. If you just reduced their hit points, then a wizard's fireball would become even more effective than it already is. Weapons are not the only things that cause damage.
It also gave the fighter a little more clout, as they would be using the weapons with the biggest increases and be on the front line to use it.
In this video, we see Matt getting hype for book he's about to release now, years later... Its awesome.
The jack vance system works very well when you understand it. The reason you lose the memory of the spell is because the spell itself, during memorization would have stored mystical energy in them. Once used that energy would be used as a "door" to allow magical energy into the world for the spell to take effect. once cast that energy is used so the spell is lost. You must re-memorize it.
The "level" thing might never have been a problem to you but, oftentimes when explaining it to new players, it took a while to explain that the terms did not have a direct correspondence. (Ex: "Why my 3rd level character can't cast 3rd levels spells, this sounds weird!")
This is why I've used the AD&D terminology instead of Spell Level even after migrating for 3rd edition (and later Pathfinder).
"Will 5th edition have skills ? We'll find out !"
“...in 8 years”
I hadn't realized that 5e is so recent.
Been thinking why I hadn't gotten in D&D earlier but since english is not my native tongue, I wouldn't have understood half that's said in these earlier editions when I was a kid.
@@WMfin I was "introduced" to D&D 2e by Baldur's Gate. The game was translated in french, and believe it or not, I actually used the game itself as a rule book for my sessions because I couldn't find anything better.
@@WallySketch oh wow! Closest to this was me and my friend making our own rules to play with Warhammers but to plan out rules from game mechanics, nice!
@@WMfin Seriously ? I did it too !! I played Chaos (Slaanesh) in Warhammer 4e to 6e so I already had a lot of minis for badguys. I've been the eternal DM since ! I struggled with Warhammer combat system, it wasn't that good for role playing, so I transitioned to "baldur's gate" system without even knowing it was actually D&D.
Man, I really wish you’d come back and revisit this series in some form or fashion. I know you have a ton on your plate now, but the history and discussion of the game is super interesting.
You are in luck my friend. New episode just released.
It's awesome how these games evolve. I didn't get into D&D until 3rd edition. But it was these old editions I remember seeing my uncle play, with the fascinating cover art.
Man 2014, when Evolve was one of the most anticipated games... what a time
Almost 7 years after the fact, but I'm _really_ enjoying this series. Nicely done!
Paraphrase of the Day:
"On a scale of Zero to Prog Rock, how complicated is your rules system?"
The astounding thing to me is that TSR actually started publishing *adventures* for AD&D before the Dungeon Master’s Guide was out. And that wasn't a small thing! The "to hit" tables were in there. You either had to run your own homebrew or get a sneak-peek article from Dragon magazine.
TSR--they were always a crazy garage band, even once they had money.
Gygax is a Swiss family name (pronounced kickaks) which may explain why Gary was fascinated by polearms - the principle weapon of the Swiss infantry (mercenary) formation.
E.g. the lucerne hammer literally refers to the city Lucerne in Switzerland.
Does anyone else remember an alignment matrix where the first half was how your character views the universe (is it organized by laws or is it formed in chaos) and the second was how your character viewed people (are people inherently good or evil)?
The art on page 21 (53:45) is the best fantasy image ive ever seen, hands down.
This series is fantastic. I'd listen to Matthew talk about the minutiae of D&D for hours... so that's what I'm going to do! :)
Love the videos but completely disagree on Charisma. My groups have found Charisma to be extremely important. Not only does Charisma affect the number and loyalty of retainers, it also affects Reaction rolls. In my experience, players often seek to parley with monsters if they can't sneak past them and don't have to fight them. Bonuses (or penalties) on Monster Reaction rolls make a huge difference.
Agreed. Things in AD&D don't matter only if you start ignoring rules. For example, my first DM did not roll reaction rolls and did not allow followers, so Charisma was useless in his game - but that wasn't AD&D's fault.
Lmao is this the Thor Olavsrud who went on to make the Torchbearer RPG?
I just started watching this series like two days ago, and that talk about evolve was the first time I looked at when these videos were released.
Wish there was more of these.. I've watched alot of these DnD guys talk about DnD. These are the best I've seen. Really should complete the series. Like it was said below me.. I could listen to this guy talk about DnD all day.
Its kind of crazy to hear you talking about the illrigger and these follower charts years ago and see where you are today. Congrats Matt, you're making it!
Yay! Just noticed you put this one up! Thanks for making these. I love watching them and you're amazing at talking about this stuff :)
"I've always wanted to be charismatic" Oh Colville, you ARE charismatic.
My very first DM used the AD&D Monster Manual with the original rules (+ Greyhawk) before this book came out.
I can remember the DMG being so expensive that it was actually cheaper for us to use the photocopiers in the university library to copy the book than buy it outright.
The Mite is from the Fiend Folio (which got it from White Dwarf #6) which is a kind of Gremlin-like creature that waylay adventurers in dungeons/tunnels.
I guess you got to the point where you went out and built your own book that had a follower chart for every class, well done good sir.
I’ve gone back to these since you’re most recent contribution, fantastic content - I hope one day you’ll find the time/desire to give us your thoughts on the economy game of D&D
Watching in 2021 with Strongholds and Followers in development in my kitchen as the snow falls and just popping in to say this rules and appreciating the journey from this to the work of MCDM today, thank you for making stuff that gets my D&D brain excited :)
Thanks for this video. I found the books at goodwill for 59¢ each. I've had them for about a year and still not played them until now.
Lucky.
Lucky
The weapon adjustment chart was a bonus to hit against the listed AC along the top. It made it interesting but it also was an extra check and added time to use this chart, unless people wrote the adjustments for each of their weapons on their sheet. Also, it was complicated further because this was against the raw AC not any adjusted for dex.
First comment of 2021!!!! Just showing how timeless and good this series is!!! Thanks Matt!!!
I really miss all those follower charts, and hirelings, and henchmen. A fighter in the hands of a smart player was one of the most powerful classes when you start using that gold for hirelings, henchmen, and kitting them out. Thanks for these videos Matt.
Missed opportunity to name this fighter "Advanced Duncan and Dragons"
I'm pretty sure the damage increase isn't for attacking larger creatures, but rather if a Large creature has a Large version of that weapon, it does that damage
You made me so happy. As soon as you said glaive I got the biggest smile and was transported in time. Why yes I had more than one character throw a glaive. Have the best day.
When I first played D&D in 2014, my DM would only run AD&D (its what he played as a teen). Our character rolling was three arrays of 4d6 drop the lowest.
January 2015, I had recently gotten the 5e PHB and started making characters... I rolled up three characters the same way and it took SOOOOOO long! Seriously, just rolling was over an hour. I haven't enjoyed rolling for stats since.
Would you recommend AD&D?
Loved evolve, you did a great job with writing. It was a game ahead of its time.
Hi Matt. I’ve just come across this series and I really enjoy it. To answer your question about bows and weapon proficiencies (i am an archer as a hobby) - these weapons would differ in small but significant ways technically, but the basic principles are the same. The biggest differences would be how they were used - on foot for longbows, whereas shortbows are more useful on horseback, for example. The actual practical differences would be in draw-weight, which doesn’t really relate to the whole long/short debate anyway.
So i would personally say that you had the stated WP adjustment in one bow type and half that in all the others. But hey, Gary probably never picked up a bow or sword in his life, so i for one forgive him!
FYI at our table (we were 6 in average every weekend in the 80s) we used weapon speed factor when calculating initiative... so now you can say you know of someone who used it. Fantastic videos thanks!!!
1:05:30 = The bonus was "to hit" that AC.
Yup!
As a person who was raised on listening to old prog rock, I love the fact that you mentioned Emerson and Wakeman :D and ofc great series, just watching it from the beginning ;)
I really enjoy these videos! It is a great wy to look atthe evolution and refinment of the game...
I love that you brought up Krull. we thought the same thing!!!
Mites are from Fiend Folio.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mite_(Dungeons_%26_Dragons)
You actually rolled a "90" for your secondary skills: "roll twice". Huzzah!
This is a fantastic series. Entertainingly guided nostalgia... I started around 81.
FIRST real campaign I played in, a buddy of mine was rolling a fighter. Snagged, a 18 Strength.... Instantly.... Oooos and Ahhhhs with the percentile roll! He drops the first dice, it was a 0. We were like... "Bummer dude." Then he drops the second dice, a 0! It was pandemonium and chaos! He named his character, MONGO. He was BRUTAL with that 18/00 Strength! Man... good times....
Back in first advanced edition, charisma was important for having followers. The number of henchmen and howw loyal they were.
14:07 "You will find no pretentious dictums herein, no baseless limits arbitrarily placed on female strength [...]"
18:45 Strength Table I, listing in detail maximum strength for male and female characters per species. ;)
Yeah, I know, it's probably just a reference table, especially when considering NPCs, but still.
"Frogdriks Campaign that he's running in germany"
Love hearing these accurate german names, spoken in my native tounge.
Nah, but I am here in 2021 and still loving those videos :D
Re-watching these creation videos again and remembering that AD&D was awesome! :-)
Preface: you will find no baseless limits placed on female strength and male charisma
Page 9: placed limits on Str based on gender
;-)
I know this is old, but yes, each bow required a different proficiency. Just like each sword type.
+Erwin Sung Yeah, they would introduce weapon skill groups later.
5 years later.... these videos are awesome.
When we played 2nd edition, we used the Initiative modifiers ("speed factors"). Although my understanding was always that no matter how high your initiative was, your action never went into the next round. I no longer have my 2nd ED books so I can't check, but that might have been a house rule. We also did use the "spell fizzles if you don't get it off in time" since it's specifically covered in the Initiative examples of the 2nd ED combat rules.
Remember, the weapon speed factors were only used when there was a tie on a die roll.
Agree that you miss the reaction and retainer based mechanics for CHA as pointed out elsewhere. That's a big part of Moldvay gameplay.
In addition, the real reason you want to raise Duncan III's STR using the point buy system is that he has a -10% XP penalty due to his Prime Requisite being below 9. That is more crippling than the hand-to-hand combat penalties.
He's still hosed with a bow, though.
Great video. More nostalgia and pleasant memories. I totally remember the glaive from Krull and thinking the same thing. Get this... I honestly though a mace was small can you sprayed in someones eyes to blind them. No joke. I was only 11 or 12, and google wasn't a thing....Lol. Keep up the awesome videos!
The sorceror in 3rd edition used charisma as their prime requisite.
The fancy lists of various pole arms does bring back some nostalgia.
I'd be interested in seeing similar videos for Tunnels & Trolls, MERP etc.
IIRC, from reading the retro-clone the Big Brown Book, the weapon vs armor class is your thac0 adjustment vs that armor type. So, if you are using a Battle Axe, when attacking someone unarmored (AC 10) you get +2 to hit, and if you are attacking someone wearing full plate (AC 2) you get -3 to hit. Essentially, a Battle Axe is better at hitting someone wearing anything other than metal armor. Notice, Lances are +3 vs AC 2 (piercing weapons penetrate armor better than slashing weapons), and the Morning Star does an average +1 against most types of AC (blunt weapons do well regardless of armament). Not too different from damage resistances for Skeletons and Zombies. Skelly's resist slashing, Zombies resist blunt, both resist piercing.
At my cousins place in the mid 1980s, I rolled a natural 18 (00). Rolled the zero zero in two separate rolls of a d10. First roll a zero. But now we have incredible tension. Because I had a 9 out of 10 chance of rolling super low and a 1 in 10 change of mega-fighter-ultra-bingo. Bam! The second zero is rolled. Cheers. Shouting. I still remember it like it was yesterday.....Just as I remember the looks of "yeah, right, sure" when I tried to take this character to another table with different players.
I love watching these videos now after several more years, and lots more popularity, of D&D 5e. I started playing in 1983 at age 10 with the D&D Basic Set (the 1978/81 pre-"Red Box" version) and avoided AD&D until 2nd edition in college. My friends and I thought "Basic" D&D was better because it was more flexible and easier to read than AD&D. Sure elf was a class, but we had all sorts of elves in our games. We didn't want to get into the complexity, and expense of those hardcover books, in AD&D. And the 1st edition AD&D books are a disaster to read or make sense of the rules. Way too small print, very text heavy, and not having all of the character creation in the Player's Handbook just bogged things down. We wanted to get into the action and storytelling fast. Basic D&D, along with Expert, Companion, & Master sets, let us play faster, easier, and more flexible all through high school.
Very cool idea and loving the videos. Just getting caught up. When you are done you should have each version fight a Kobold and record that for each version of your fighter ;)
Polearms were important in the dungeon, in a 10 ft. hallway the fighter and the cleric could hold the hallway and the second rank could attack the foes in front of the fighter and the cleric. Fighting in the hallway allowed the smaller number of party members to fight against a larger force.
I definitely used weapon speed and attack bonuses vs. armour class! 😆 But yeah - we would bounce back and forth between getting deep into rules (encumbrance!) and just playing it by ear often in the same campaign.
I also used the weapon speeds and attack bonuses vs. armor class when I played 1ed back in the mid-late 80's! It was a pain, but added a level of variation between weapons.
Very cool idea and loving the videos. Just getting caught up. When you are done you should have each version fight a Kobold and record that for each version of your fighter.
From 1979 - 1989 I found method 1 for stat creation seemed to be by far the most used in groups I played in (from Canada to Texas).
We just accepted that opening doors was on a d6 and BB/LG were percentile dice. In retrospect, I know that we valued each slight difference in stat, and the percentile score for BB/LG helps make a (ridiculously small) difference between, for example, a 10 and a 15 strength.
Charisma was important! The Reaction Roll (p. X23 of the Expert book) was modified by Charisma, so it mattered when it came to finding out how monsters and NPCs reacted to the Player Characters. A penalty to Charisma could have meant a group of monsters attacked immediately instead of negotiating. And with the deadliness of Moldvay B/X, that could be the difference between survival and a TPK.
Please revive this it's incredibly fascinating
We used both Weapon Speed and Attack Bonus vs Armor Class. They were fairly important rules in our game.
"Open Doors" we always called "the foot key"
"Bohemian Earspoon" - LOL! :D
It's amazing how some little tidbits have still got carried over to the 5th edition - like for example, the plate armor still costs 1400 gold, probably - as Matt mentioned - because someone wrote Gary a letter or he read something in a book and decided - in between of putting all the polearms in the rules - that plate armor is super expensive all of a sudden. In fact, it's exactly 1400 of gold expensive. And it's still a thing 40 year later.
I mean, plate armour _was_ really expensive
Hey, I finally get why in WoW the ballista type siege weapon called a 'Glaive Thrower' shoots a huge starlike thing instead of a pole arm. They must have watched that movie Crawl and never looked up what a real glaive looks like.
As we learned talking to Old Geezer at the RPGSite, a lot of those strangly-weak skills (Thief Skills) and abilities (Ranger, Exceptional STR) were actually I WIN checks in actual play; everyone could move quietly, but only Thieves could literally Move Silently (and as "no sound AT ALL"). Likewise, everyone could attempt to squeeze through/crowbar their way past barred gates but Bend Bars were literally that specific power. You mentioned _Playing at the World_, so you should be well aware of this being the case.
I scrolled through and didn’t see anyone else comment on this: the other big boost for Fighters over other classes is that they attacked once per level per round against foes of less than 1 HD. That is to say all human troops, all kobolds, and all goblins other than chiefs and their bodyguards. (See the footnote under the fighter/Ranger/paladin attacks per round table after the Paladin entry.)
Since the 1E design had masses of those as threats for some of time this was a significant bonus: fighters were the first official Mook Sweepers, and a 5th level fighter could reliably take out 3 “rabble” per round, round after round. Yes this didn’t help against more skilled opponents, but from levels 1-5 it’s a big damn boost, and again when you’re 9th level and leading troops in combat.
i loved the idea of henchmen/followers, and when 3ed came along, it had the leadership feat, which was the same thing in a new form. never got to play with it much, but it was great for making heroes out of your murderhobos, and it came with the price of having to support them to keep them. the weapon speed factors are covered in the DMG, p. 66. Bonus vs AC is against the base armor type that grants that AC. i never knew anyone who used them, but they could change some combats radically.
Ahh, Scorpion's iconic catch phrase, "Come here!" Like he's talking to his pal, "hey c'mere bud!"
In my understanding it's not just the training that makes the war horse cost so much but their quality breeding and individual temperament. Prices of horses could vary in multipliers of hundreds I think. In medieval times that is.
I also kind of understand going crazy with polearm types though in my homebrew I rule them all basically the same including great sword (which I separate from two - handed sword). 😂
Something funny about your point on glaives, my first D&D was the 1995 reprint of AD&D 2nd Edition (the one with the cover that looks like Conan kicking in a door.) I don't know if they did it in the earlier versions, but this one has considerably more illustrations with a whole chart of what all the weird-sounding polearms look like so my first introduction to a glaive was it's proper form.
In the 90s a friend of mine wrote a paper explaining how to use the infinite agricultural land available with all the alternate planes to build an egg-selling empire.
I have played in campaigns where the weapon proficiency was each single weapon name and others where it was more the weapon type. I.E. bows, axes, single handed swords, two handed swords,pole arms, pole axes, spears, throwing weapons, maces, hammers, picks, etc... There was some discussion about what was considered each of these but generally if you could use a short bow you could use a long bow and if you could use a short sword you could use a scimitar or a broad sword, etc...
Yeah, I agree, you should have said "it's up to Ben" LOL! :D
4:00 3rd edition had those already, ie. sorcerer
If you look carefully through the weapon damage list, you'll see a few here and there, such as the hand axe, that does less damage vs large creatures. Axe hand/throwing vs s/m: 1-6, vs L: 1-4. Saw this at 58:17
Hand/Throwing Axe , Bec De Corbin, Bo Stick, Club, Dagger, Dart, Lucern Hammer , Hammer, Jo Stick, Footman's Mace, Horseman's Mace, Morning Star, etc... all do less damage vs Large opponents. I think there's a pattern here, mostly with blunt and small weapons.
Great videos and I have 3 observations
Unearthed Arcana bought in new rolls for humans, for a fighter select best 3 of 9d6 for strength, 7d6 for Dex and 8d6 for Constitution. The big change from some methods is that class choice determines the die rolls rather than the other way round.
I disagree that THACO (To Hit Armour Class 0) is complicated. Given you simply take the die roll from your THACO to work out which AC was hit e.g THACO 20 Die roll 16 hit AC 4 or worse.
This is especially easy for fighters (if you smooth the combat tables improvement from to 2 every 2 levels to 1 every 1) as you can take their level from 21 to get their base and then adjust with to hit modifiers. But each to his own.
The secondary skills were depending on the particular dungeon master either replaced or complimented by the Craftsmen Skills in the Dungeoneers Survival Guide (1986) in the groups I play(ed) in
The video before this one in the playlist is private. What secrets do you hide from me, Mr. Colville?
We played AD&D a few years back and we did use the weapon speed, but we didn't play it that you swung and then hit half way thru the next round, we just made the slower weapons hit later in the round than the faster.
I know people have mentioned the origins of Strongholds and Followers, but I also checked out a copy of that Plethora of Paladins article, and if you look at the Arrikhan (NE), you'll notice it has a very specific level title...
Beastheart.
Clever.