Alan First of all, thank you for your excellent videos. You are to be commended for sharing your knowledge and expertise on the most important of all test equipment, The Scope! I finally got around to building this. Cost about 10 dollars and about 30 minutes to assemble. A very easy project to reproduce. I built mine in a small BUD enclosure. Using a spare 40 mhz scope that was given to me (leaving my Tek 475 in my shop) I hooked it up to the RF output of the shack switching circuit so I can monitor all of my rigs, I have several. Using my BC-610-E transmitter, I monitored my carrier and modulation with ease. It makes a huge difference in determining the health of my signal. Even an inexpensive dual trace scope is a much needed tool, a must for the serious minded operator intent on controlling the quality of the signal. Remember folks, the scope never lies. If you want the truth about your station, the scope will tell you more at a glance than most any other piece of gear. Thanks again Alan. 73 de Billy N6YW
Alan, had to check out your video and build this circuit as I have built another AM station. Using a James Millen 80991 (push pull 812A, swinging link coupled) and modulating it with a pair of 4-125A and a BC-610 modulation transformer mostly on 40M but sometimes on 20M. Don't have enough room for an 80M antenna. I have two 485 and they are still magnificent scopes even 10 years after you posted this video. I guess they are getting to be around 50 years old. 73
Thanks for sharing this. I haven't seen a trapezoid display in years.
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I was just searching for a practice demonstration about this stuff. Thank you so much for sharing this simple circuit that is a useful tool for practical analysis. I will better use my scope now. Thanks a lot !
Yet another video, exactly what I was looking for, tyvm for posting. Please consider posting a video showing your ham shack sometime, I would love to see your rigs.
+Joseph Duane Yuna. Is this archaic and unnecessary? Sure it is. But, that's not the point of it. It is interesting, fun, entertaining and educational.
I would go further. Many people enjoy using vintage transmitters and for them, these methods are valuable. Furthermore, there is real value (point if you will) in having fun.
It's not at all archaic and unnecessary. I am a general class ham and recently added a cheap AM CB to my station. There are some local hams who like to chat on 11 meters. I plan on getting an SSB CB. Many CBer's like to "peak and tune" their radios. If I get something used there is a chance that it's been messed with. A watt meter will make sure it's within FCC specs for power output. With your circuit I can use my O-scope to make sure the radio isn't over modulating. So there are perfectly good reasons to do what you show in the video. Thanks for posting this!
purplemutantas Unnecessary and archaic? Not on your worst day ( or any one else' s either) This circuit, as well as the one I have designed on my own is and has been indispensable for the past 35 years to me. W ether used for CB, HAM, HT's and Linear Amps or QR P, it's the way to tune your transmitter in conjunction with an AF signal generator, RF generator, PEAK reading and RMS watt meter, frequency counter and ammeter. How can any shop or shack get it truly "right", without tuning on a scope ? Many shops don't care as long as the radio is on freq. and sounds alright. Then of course, we may or may not have a spectrum analyzer to really see whats happening after the fact! As I'm sure you also know "seeing" your RF output in conjunction with a freq. counter will allow you to check that your carrier oscillators in ANY SSB/ AM transmitter SUCH AS A CB even for example- is not only on frequency, but what your RF output looks like on a scope as a result of those carrier oscillators and if they are sensitive to a physical shock or vibration in the mobile. also at various power output levels too. Not to mention A TWO TONE Generator. If you know what you're doing, then you know what I'm saying/ This is absolutely necessary for any tech who wants it all to work properly, sound properly, and of course- on frequency. This simple circuit is indispensable and I made one the way I wanted for my own reasons.The first one I designed --would show a perfect image into a scope with a 1 MHz. maximum vertical bandwidth amp; into an old tube type Eico scope I got for $10. I just had to let you guys know about this after some opinions I had read here.
+purplemutantas You worry too much about staying within power limits on CB. I am a ham but use CB for traffic info when traveling. Just about any day I can hear stations on channel 6 that are obviously running multi kw output, over modulating and splattering over many channels. This has been ongoing for years and so far, the FCC apparently hasn't done squat. I wouldn't have any worry except if someone turned the power up to the point of backward modulation or to the point of endangering component life.
CAROLINA PATRIOT Hi - I wanted to comment on - you said "Point of backward modulation or to the point of endangering component life". -I find that comment really funny. Back in the 1980's I worked in a CB shop, and the things that went on with setting up the Radios CORRECTLY, into 50 watt drivers- then into HUGE amps to the point of just what you said. Although set up correctly, you will not get away from all the harmonics and parasitics. And burnt finals. I mean these guys sounded loud and I made sure the radio wasn't distorting - I was on C.B. back then as well. Thats where the scope and monitoring your modulation, as well as a spectrum analyzer comes to play and is SO important. To each guy that wanted their stuff set up, I had to explain that they will be as loud as they want but (WHY) I won't make them sound distorted- and there is a fine line there. You can tell if they're set up correctly by their sound of course. However at home, I had a scope set up to see everyone's modulation (via 455kc in mod. from a C.B.) and would call them into the shop or tell one of their buddies to let them know ASAP, so it can be checked and fixed for free if possible. It was a cool thing actually and great for business. Good times.....
Thanks for making this video! I'm studying electrical engineering right now, and most of my time goes into learning the theory, but this video shows how Ham is very relevant to gaining some hands on experience.
w2aew I am planning to start with the pine board project by Bob Heil. Do you have any suggestions for other designs or projects that would be good to start with?
I probably wouldn't start with that as your first project, mainly because it uses line/high voltage and vacuum tubes. Plus, the end goal is a transmitter, which would can't use until you're licensed. I'd probably start by building a HF or shortwave receiver - tons of plans online.
As a note to people looking to understand this fascinating stuff, last spring I took Electronics 101 at the good old City College of San Francisco. Last month I finished Electronics 102 (transformers/diodes/rectifiers/transistors). But I could figure out your circuit diagram! Gotta love diodes.
Great video as always, I was setting up to do similar but my ancient oscilloscope had not been powered up for ages, it ran for perhaps a minute before a loud bang and a shack full of smoke! An easy repair but kind of comical how a simple task can get sidetracked!
He ran through this in a few minutes. But it will take me over an hour to do the same thing. That’s ok, still beats working in the yard. Thanks for the video!
Hey Alan, I just completed this little project only I used the SO-239 UHF connectors. I purchased a ABS plastic project enclosure box from Radio Shack. In order to connect to the scope I used 2 uhf to bnc adapters, and then my regular RG-58 patch cables from the radio RF IN, & RF OUT to the dummy load. I tuned my transceiver to 7.100 CW but couldn't get a wave form probably due to the scope not being ajusted. Found SSB worked great & my wife was amazed at her voice print on the scope. 73's
Thank you so much for this video-just getting back into radio after a few years, and always wondered what the oscilloscopes were used for in other ham's setups. 73
Excellent!! One thing that would be nice, in the future, if possible, would be to see examples of non-linearity, flat topping, and various examples of problems with the TX of SSB, AM, and other modes in a transceiver.
I just use a scrap bit of wire, wrap about 4 or 5 turns around the coax or one leg of ladder line and clip the oscilloscope probe clips to the ends of the scrap wire. The wire acts like a "sniffer" and picks up a little radiated signal. Its good enough to observe a waveform to check transmissions with. Down side, its not calibrated, but I use this to set up WSPR transmissions to very low levels, and ensure a usable (readable) signal. Hope that helps Kevin.
Yes, it does help and Thank You. I'm in the process of buying an oscilloscope right now, first one. I'm going to do a bit of experimenting and all this info is very helpful! Kevin N2FLP
Very nice. I've been scouring the web for a circuit like this, CleanRF makes something similar, the RF-SM which is a little pricy for my tastes. Even a search of the ARRL archives didn't reveal any home brew circuits. With radios like the FT-857D that have multiple controls for the microphone audio, i.e. compression level, mic gain, DSP mic equalizer, being able to monitor the SSB RF envelope becomes important in order to properly set the levels. Add in an amplified mic, even more so.
This is a great video. I tried this technique to analyze the output of my airband transceiver on a PM3092 Oscilloscope (sniffing the output between the rig and a dummy load), but the computer inside the scope went a bit mental. I am now looking for a Tek scope ! Philips PM3092 oscilloscope goes crazy with 127MHz input
john, great explanation you are a genius mate could you possibly do a video on how a car key fob works how to program etc . please keep the vids coming, john
First of all, I thank God for your life and for your excellent videos. You are to be commended for sharing your knowledge. i am beginner in this field so i look to you. stay bless
Fantastic video. I'd like to see some examples of what to look for in terms of "flat topping" and other errors that show you're signal isn't what it should be.
Good morning, and to think that I just wrap a little wire around my co-ax to check my transmissions! Put the ends in the scope input and bingo, a small RF sample can be seen. But your circuit is certainly much better. Just goes to prove that there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. 73 & 501.
Just found your channel recently. Thank you for the effort you place into sharing your knowledge and the time it takes to produce the video's for TH-cam. I just bought me a scope in the past couple of weeks and I'm beginning to understand how to use it in my station. A couple of questions: 1) are you using your scope probes to measure or are you hooking up directly from this board to the scope? 1a) if direct; is the coax attenuated in any means or strictly a straight 50ohm BNC coax like I might have lying around in my shack? 2) you stated that you were measuring a QRP rig. Help me here as I've been an Advanced class for 25 years but as an "appliance operator" only. Now, since I've retired, I'm trying to build me a few antennas and get some more theory behind me. With that... How would you determine value for resistors (wattage value that is) for say a 100 watt rig, a 400 watt rig, a 800 watt rig... all the way up to say legal limit 1500watts? The main reason I asked (2) is I have purchased an amplifier (Ameritron AL-811H; 800 watts) and I would like to make sure that I'm doing ok with it. The Scope that I bought is a BK Precision 2190E that I bought from Mouser. (I'm lucky enough to be near Mouser (1/2 hour drive) so I can order and pick up in same day.)) It's a digital 2 channel 100MHz bandwidth; 1GSa/s which for the price ($399.00) I thought was excellent. Russ KW5KW good on QRZ
For monitoring 100W+,. I would probably not use a resistive tap like this. Take a look at my video(s) on RF Samplers / Taps for some ideas. th-cam.com/video/0Kk_N_TpDeo/w-d-xo.html th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html
i have an old scope, but had so much frustration with it to check the 4mhz signal, even when using a DIY highpass filter, i think my problem was trying to use the stock probes, they pick up too much AC noise, i guess i should run a coax from my circuit to the bnc plug
See...apparently I am really screwed up in my understanding of the basics. To explain a bit my lack of understanding. I got my EE in 1982 and really never used it. Got laid off from Motorola in 1983 and never went back. I got my last ham ticket in 1973 and after a stint in the Air Force and life being what it is, got out of ham radio for about 20 years. So I have retired and have experienced some renewed interest but truthfully, this shows me how much I have forgotten or perhaps never knew.
Alan, thank you for your time creating this fine video. I read through a lot of the replys but did not see anyone ask what is this max wattage this guy will handle ,by the size of the components not much I assume. Thank you Joel
Cool idea - I think I'll present this idea to my club as well. We have guys who have no idea about ACL, and like to turn everything to the max. Perhaps if they see the shape of the signal, it wil get it through their heads what proper levels mean.
Though I agree with your analysis that most of the input voltage appears across the 47K resistor in the 690R load case, and it is probably true also for most attached CRO loads, the implication that the circuit could withstand 70V RMS is flawed. The 1N34A PIV rating is 65V, so it would be unsafe to operate it above say 20V RMS (or 8W in 50R) allowing a margin for safety.
Another perfect video I've been looking for sir. Thank you sir. Keep em coming. Can you do another video on using the bird 43 and slugs please and thanks sir
Great video there, i am getting my shack done up and gone get my test equipment out and vids like this are good to see and give me ideas thanks, how would you couple a 2 tone signal for 2 seprate generators when checking flat top in SSB ?
Very interesting. Thanks for the demo. How many scope do you have in your "shop/shack" there? Looks like a bunch that's for sure. Keep 'em coming. Thanks.
Using a 40 DB attenuator should work nstead of the resistor divider? That way in case you forget to turn your hundred watt transceiver down. I just want to double-check because would love to build this circuit. I do have a 40 DB RF attenuator so attenuation is not an issue. Another question would be if I actually attenuated by 40 DB before I even hooked to that box would it affect the AM demod? I have learned a lot in your videos are very helpful. I am looking into starting to play with radios and maybe work on them just for fun on the side. Just want to have the facts right since nobody else seemed to put them on the Internet. They talk about what they're doing but they don't tell you how it's hooked up. Thank you very much for the informative videos definitely will looking forward to the future ones. I should add into this as well what kind of setup I will be doing. It will be transceiver to the dummy load. In between those will be a coaxial T to get my RF tap. then it will go through the 40 DB attenuator into the circuit. so will not be a feed thru but more or less acting as just a tap. Hopefully you can visualize what I'm saying. I am bad with wording. 73 ad0am
Thanks, Alan, this is just what I need to test my new transmitter (Icom IC-7300) before making my first QSO. Although I can follow your very clear explanation, I'm confused when you say (paraphrasing) "to be sure to size the resistors to be certain they can handle the power they're going to be sensing". I assume your QRP rig is putting out 5W and my 7300 is putting out 100W into a dummy load. But without voltage or current information how does one calculate the power that will be dissipated by the resistors? Sorry for the newbie question. JS2OLO
W2aew, Older Transmitters and Radios used theses dark metal tan vacuum tubes that were called i think Emitter tubes which needed to be Positive Bias. Why did these tubes needed to be "positive bias" on the vaccum tubes metal can shielding? What i mean is that if you tried to put your hand and grabbed the metal can shielding you would get shocked from the very high voltage positive bias, not sure why they did this. Any reasons you think?
I have just about watched all your videos and have thoroughly enjoyed everyone. I have just acquired a scope and am looking for ways to learn more about this wonderful hobby. I am in the process of building this project but on a breadboard so I can do minor substitutions of parts to see the changes. Do you have any warnings?
I have a couple pieces of advice: 1) Do not build it on a plug-in breadboard. These do not work well with RF. 2) Be careful about the power rating of the resistors used, depending on the RF power you plan to run. Calculate the power rating needed for the resistors. 3) Do not built both the sampler and demodulator on the same RF tap like I did here. I did it only for convenience. They would never be used this way. Build them separately if you intend to use them for rough linearity checks. 4) You will likely want to put an attenuator ahead of the demodulator for two reasons - to limit the voltage peaks seen by the diodes, and to limit the amount of distortion injected back into the RF path from the detector circuit. I have a few other videos on RF samplers that you might want to view also.
I am having difficulty getting the trapezoid reading. I have Dmod to X as indicated by your notation. Sample in Y. GO into X-Y mode, and instead of it going left to right, it goes up and down in a fine point. I have tried swtiching the x and y channels. Everything else seems to be working as it does in your video.
Thanks for the great video, Alan! Not only is this a nice and simple mini project for a weekend or a night after work but it also gives you a great tool for testing AND for general learning for those that are relatively new to all of this, like myself. So, thank you! I do have another mini-project idea though if I may suggest it? A CW practice oscillator. Yes, you get buy 50 different kits for this from Guang Dong Ding Hung Lo Province on Ebay and you can also find many different schematics online as well. You though have a great method of teaching and showing a lot more additional information and show how simple pieces of kit, can be used other places as well as how the end result actually works. Anywho.....if I had a simple short list of things I would like to see you do. A CW practice oscillator with adjustable tone and volume would be awesome. :-) N0BPS
+w2aew Thank you! Though I would venture a guess that your "list" with regard to videos you want to do and others want you to do is as long a your arm. I appreciate you even entertaining the idea and its always nice when a YT creator responds and interacts with their audience. So, thank you for that as well!
+Brian Streufert Yeah, the list is pretty long - several pages in a notebook. The CW practice oscillator is interesting because it may be a good venue for something simple like a phase shift oscillator...
Were the capicators used specifically for 40 meters. I built the same sampler but I get some RF in the detected signal. Using on 11 meter band. I have photos but don't know how to sent them to you.
The Tek 465 scope really isn't the best tool for this job. It is only a 100MHz scope, so the response will be down several dB at 146MHz. It doesn't have a 50 ohm termination, so you'll have to provide a through termination at the input. Even with this, it will be nothing more than a glorified RF power meter that you could use to peak/dip the pass and reject cavities, assuming you have an appropriate signal source to drive the cavities with.
Hi Alan , apart from that Tektronix 485 scppes MAGNIFICENT display are the components and board that you used for that RF sampler demodulator board could they all be submerged in mineral oil ? Ie dumped in a 4ltre paint can as part of a dummy load so239 + the 4 BNC OUTPUTS in the cans lid ? Cheers Alan.
Good morning. First of all I want to apologize for my bad English. My question is what is the capacitor value of the RF sample, I don't understand its value... 10pF?. 0.01nF?. It has to be plastic and not ceramic? I loved the video, I have an SM-220 from Kenwood but in the second QTH I want to put the same thing but with an old oscilloscope that I have several. Thank you very much for your answer dear friend, a great teacher although I have a hard time understanding the details by the language.
Thanks for the share. Just got done building the circuit, but performance isn't what I expected and have some questions hopefully you can address. First thing I notice is that it doesn't seem that useful for sideband. Applying two tones, if I change the modulation, I just get a larger or smaller triangle, but the triangle itself doesn't change shape. Is the trapezoid method meant for only AM use? I see dual triangles opposite one another which may be more useful, but not sure if this circuit can do this. Another thing I notice is that I can't seem to overmodulate. I increase mic gain and/or tone generator for maximum on AM, but whether the trapezoid or sine wave, they reach maybe 90-95% and go no further. Could this be due to the radio's internal ALC setting? When I first tried the circuit, I was getting "bitten" when I tried to adjust the tone generator, then I discovered that I had RF sampling going to channel B and modulation sampling going to channel A. Switched them and I don't notice any "bites" now. Does hookup have to be as you did to avoid this issue (RF to A, modulation to B)? My radio has a built in SWR meter. I notice with the modulating sampler inline, SWR on the radio increases to around 2.5. If I just use the RF sampler, under 1.5. Any ideas why the increase? Note that I didn't build it the way you did. I have a separate small box for RF and another for modulation sampler. My voltage divider, borrowed from an existing one I made years ago, is 20:1. Does this matter? I also don't have a 0.01 uF cap at the output in mine, just the resistors. Should I add the cap? Lots of questions, sorry, but new at this sort of thing. Just trying to do it as accurately as possible and thank you in advance.
As described in the notes below the video, this circuit - as shown - can NOT be used to measure non-linearity with the trapezoid pattern since both the sampler and detector are fed with the same RF signal. Refer to the notes appearing below the video. This circuit, as shown, is only suitable for QRP levels of power. See my other videos on RF Samplers to get some ideas for higher power RF monitoring. Yes, both the RF sampler and the detector WILL affect the SWR.
I am wondering about the 1k across the demodulator. This would give a very high cutoff surely? The time constant with the 1000p cap would be 1uS. I tried your circuit out with the values shown and found that sure enough, pretty much all I could see was residual RF and no AF. Increasing the value to 47k gave a good result, nice clear demod and very little RF on the signal. The results are clear but I do wonder if my thoughts are all wet?
+984francis The 1K resistor is just to provide a bleed off path for the charge stored on the 1000 pF capacitor. A higher value will give a slower bleed off rate, and will work fine for demodulating audio frequencies. You're results are fine - simply choose the values to suit your application.
Thank you for your response. . Are you saying that the advice is conflicting because, in fact, the scope input Z is not 50 ohms?If the scope input Z were 50 ohms then the 50 would be across the 690 and that would act like a resistor of 46.62 ohms in series with 47000 ohms thus the 1:1000 voltage divider. But as I understand it you are saying that in fact the input Z is more like 1 Mohm and so the voltage divider is really more like a 690 in series witth the 47000K. Am I understanding what you ?
@@w2aew Thanks for responding Alan! So with your attenuation device, no danger to the scope? Also, I have an old Sencore vector scope I can have some fun with... Thanks again and looking forward to your next vid!
(I’m thinking yes, but:) Would this also work for checking the CW signal shaping of a QRP transceiver? My natural side tone has a slight key-click. I can’t hear it on another receiver, but I’d like to look at it on the scope anyway.
Alan..I had written you a couple of days before and was interested in how you would calculate the power dissipation of the 47K and 690 ohm resistors needed for one leg of the RF sampling circuit. It seems to me that the resistors would have to be significantly more wattage than 1/2 watt. I certainly understand that you are extremely busy, so if you could direct me to a source that might help I would also be appreciative. I got my EE in the 1980's and never really developed the "knack" . Thanks
Very informative and well presented, was looking to buy a ready made unit to do this with my FT817nd and my old Tektronix T935A but as you have shown it is so simple I will build my own, thany you very much. How about a simple tone generator to go with it? 73 Phil M6MRP
Are you able/willing to give more information on how you came up with that circuit design? It's something I haven't learned how to do yet and I'd like to be able to customize it to whatever equipment I'm using. Also, what was your antenna?
The "monitor" circuit is a simple voltage divider. Values are not critical - just wanted very little loading on the 50 ohm line, so the sum of the resistors is >>50. And, used a reasonably large divide ratio to reduce large RF voltages down to lower levels for the scope input. The demodulator circuit is a very common RF amplitude detector. If all you want/need is to monitor your RF output, there are *many* ways to do this. Check out these videos of mine: Super Simple RF monitor: th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html Basics of RF Samplers:' th-cam.com/video/0Kk_N_TpDeo/w-d-xo.html
Alan, please let me go back to basics: I was thinking that the 100w generator "looked into" the "rf in" on your diagram and saw the 47k in series with the parallel combination of 690 and 50 (which is the o'scope) with both the 690 and the 50 tied to ground. Is this wrong?
@nflgun In addition being able to monitor the RF waveform when running BPSK3 would be advantageous since it's difficult to set your drive levels without someone else observing your IMD. Question, what kind of waveform would you get if you drove the Ext. trigger with the demod signal? Any chance you'd consider refining the circuit some and maybe writing a QST article? I think you'd be surprised at the response.
Thanks for this, I might dig my scope out now :) Can this be added to my ATU, taking the transmitter input as the source? A couple of BNC sockets on the back would make it useful, what happens if the BNC's are not connected to the scope - can it be left inline?
Matty Lad If you have a ATU with unused ports, you can use the technique shown in this video, super simple:th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html No direct connection to the RF line, nothing to build, works well. Just heed the warnings in the video.
It depends a little on the scope and the type of sampler you're using, but here is a good starting point: Vertical: AC coupling, V/div as needed to get a good deflection (10-100mV/div typically) Horizontal: 1 or 2ms/div typically Trigger: LINE, normal or Auto
Alan...the crux of my problem I think is that I do not understand how to see that the 50 is in parallel with the series combination of the 690 and the 47000. That is my BIG problem.
Great video. On the de modulator, are the voltages of the capacitors important? Are the cap voltages and values determined by the output power of the transmitter. In my situation, an Icom IC 7300. What were the voltage values for the de modulator caps that you used? I've got a Yaesu YO 100 monitor scope that does the Trap display but I'd rather use my Tektronics 2465 BDM.
Hi, I can't seem to find you video re: "quick/easy way to sample the transmit output by using an unused antenna port on a tuner." I wonder if you would mind posting a link. Thank You,
Hello, congratulations, very usuable device. What is the max. input power? what is the attenuation on RF port? What is the max operating frequency¡? 73´s de XE1XNP
Hi w2aew, just one question. I don't have an Spectrum Analyzer, so there is a SDR platform calles RTL-SDR (i think you know it) for some kHz to 1.7GHz, how can I use it for doing Spectrum analysis connecting the RF input directly to a transmitter or any source? How can I calculate the input impedance? In order to not to burn the RF input.
See my videos on RF Samplers for more information. The signal level going into the RTL-SDR will need to be very low since it doesn't have a large attenuator built in.
I just bought a Yaesu FT817nd two days ago and I do not have any matching antenna at the moment so I was wondering if I could measure the output power of this rig. Then this video seems very helpful. I like all videos by w2aew. By the way, being a physics Ph.D student, I know how individual parts works but I don't have engineering knowledge which is needed for these stuff. I am curious what would happen if the output signal of the FT817nd is directly fed into the scope. what could be the problems and do I fry the Scope or the FT817nd? I have a Tektronix 2225 scope. Thanks.
The FT-817 puts out a maximum of 5W into a 50 ohm load. It is not advisable to transmit directly into the scope for a couple of reasons - mainly because the input impedance of the scope is not 50 ohms. SWR protection in the rig will reduce the power if the output is not loaded with 50 ohms, so you won't get the correct power reading. And of course, you could potentially damage the scope and the rig. To use the scope to measure power, you'll need a 50 ohm thru termination that is rated for 5W operation, or a calibrated RF sampler/tap. You could build a simple resistor divider inside of a dummy load and use that with a 10x probe. I use one of these: www.terapeak.com/worth/tektronix-bnc-termination-011-0099-00-50-omega-5w-c1-1-139a/231655320319/
I built this circuit and tried it out on a digital scope (Rigol DC1102e). The digital scope give a different look than Alan's analog scope. I posted a video response, if you want to check it out.
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Alan
First of all, thank you for your excellent videos. You are to be commended for sharing your knowledge and expertise on the most important of all test equipment,
The Scope!
I finally got around to building this. Cost about 10 dollars and about 30 minutes to assemble. A very easy project to reproduce. I built mine in a small BUD enclosure.
Using a spare 40 mhz scope that was given to me (leaving my Tek 475 in my shop) I hooked it up to the RF output of the shack switching circuit so I can monitor all of my rigs, I have several.
Using my BC-610-E transmitter, I monitored my carrier and modulation with ease.
It makes a huge difference in determining the health of my signal. Even an inexpensive dual trace scope is a much needed tool, a must for the serious minded operator intent on controlling the quality of the signal.
Remember folks, the scope never lies. If you want the truth about your station, the scope will tell you more at a glance than most any other piece of gear.
Thanks again Alan.
73 de Billy N6YW
Alan, had to check out your video and build this circuit as I have built another AM station. Using a James Millen 80991 (push pull 812A, swinging link coupled) and modulating it with a pair of 4-125A and a BC-610 modulation transformer mostly on 40M but sometimes on 20M. Don't have enough room for an 80M antenna. I have two 485 and they are still magnificent scopes even 10 years after you posted this video. I guess they are getting to be around 50 years old. 73
Nice video OM! Right to the point, no fluff. A+
Thanks for sharing this. I haven't seen a trapezoid display in years.
I was just searching for a practice demonstration about this stuff. Thank you so much for sharing this simple circuit that is a useful tool for practical analysis. I will better use my scope now. Thanks a lot !
Cool video. Great explanation on using the O'scope. Nice detector circuit.
Thanks for taking time in the making of this video.
73.
Yet another video, exactly what I was looking for, tyvm for posting. Please consider posting a video showing your ham shack sometime, I would love to see your rigs.
+Joseph Duane Yuna. Is this archaic and unnecessary? Sure it is. But, that's not the point of it. It is interesting, fun, entertaining and educational.
I would go further. Many people enjoy using vintage transmitters and for them, these methods are valuable. Furthermore, there is real value (point if you will) in having fun.
It's not at all archaic and unnecessary. I am a general class ham and recently added a cheap AM CB to my station. There are some local hams who like to chat on 11 meters. I plan on getting an SSB CB. Many CBer's like to "peak and tune" their radios. If I get something used there is a chance that it's been messed with. A watt meter will make sure it's within FCC specs for power output. With your circuit I can use my O-scope to make sure the radio isn't over modulating. So there are perfectly good reasons to do what you show in the video.
Thanks for posting this!
purplemutantas Unnecessary and archaic? Not on your worst day ( or any one else' s either) This circuit, as well as the one I have designed on my own is and has been indispensable for the past 35 years to me. W ether used for CB, HAM, HT's and Linear Amps or QR P, it's the way to tune your transmitter in conjunction with an AF signal generator, RF generator, PEAK reading and RMS watt meter, frequency counter and ammeter. How can any shop or shack get it truly "right", without tuning on a scope ? Many shops don't care as long as the radio is on freq. and sounds alright. Then of course, we may or may not have a spectrum analyzer to really see whats happening after the fact! As I'm sure you also know "seeing" your RF output in conjunction with a freq. counter will allow you to check that your carrier oscillators in ANY SSB/ AM transmitter SUCH AS A CB even for example- is not only on frequency, but what your RF output looks like on a scope as a result of those carrier oscillators and if they are sensitive to a physical shock or vibration in the mobile. also at various power output levels too. Not to mention A TWO TONE Generator. If you know what you're doing, then you know what I'm saying/ This is absolutely necessary for any tech who wants it all to work properly, sound properly, and of course- on frequency. This simple circuit is indispensable and I made one the way I wanted for my own reasons.The first one I designed --would show a perfect image into a scope with a 1 MHz. maximum vertical bandwidth amp; into an old tube type Eico scope I got for $10. I just had to let you guys know about this after some opinions I had read here.
+purplemutantas You worry too much about staying within power limits on CB. I am a ham but use CB for traffic info when traveling. Just about any day I can hear stations on channel 6 that are obviously running multi kw output, over modulating and splattering over many channels. This has been ongoing for years and so far, the FCC apparently hasn't done squat. I wouldn't have any worry except if someone turned the power up to the point of backward modulation or to the point of endangering component life.
CAROLINA PATRIOT Hi - I wanted to comment on - you said "Point of backward modulation or to the point of endangering component life". -I find that comment really funny. Back in the 1980's I worked in a CB shop, and the things that went on with setting up the Radios CORRECTLY, into 50 watt drivers- then into HUGE amps to the point of just what you said. Although set up correctly, you will not get away from all the harmonics and parasitics. And burnt finals. I mean these guys sounded loud and I made sure the radio wasn't distorting - I was on C.B. back then as well. Thats where the scope and monitoring your modulation, as well as a spectrum analyzer comes to play and is SO important. To each guy that wanted their stuff set up, I had to explain that they will be as loud as they want but (WHY) I won't make them sound distorted- and there is a fine line there. You can tell if they're set up correctly by their sound of course. However at home, I had a scope set up to see everyone's modulation (via 455kc in mod. from a C.B.) and would call them into the shop or tell one of their buddies to let them know ASAP, so it can be checked and fixed for free if possible. It was a cool thing actually and great for business. Good times.....
Thanks for making this video! I'm studying electrical engineering right now, and most of my time goes into learning the theory, but this video shows how Ham is very relevant to gaining some hands on experience.
Ham radio is one great way to get involved in hands on electronics, since we are permitted to design, build and use our own gear.
w2aew I am planning to start with the pine board project by Bob Heil. Do you have any suggestions for other designs or projects that would be good to start with?
I probably wouldn't start with that as your first project, mainly because it uses line/high voltage and vacuum tubes. Plus, the end goal is a transmitter, which would can't use until you're licensed. I'd probably start by building a HF or shortwave receiver - tons of plans online.
w2aew Thanks! I'll search for some plans.
As a note to people looking to understand this fascinating stuff, last spring I took Electronics 101 at the good old City College of San Francisco. Last month I finished Electronics 102 (transformers/diodes/rectifiers/transistors). But I could figure out your circuit diagram! Gotta love diodes.
Great video as always, I was setting up to do similar but my ancient oscilloscope had not been powered up for ages, it ran for perhaps a minute before a loud bang and a shack full of smoke! An easy repair but kind of comical how a simple task can get sidetracked!
He ran through this in a few minutes. But it will take me over an hour to do the same thing. That’s ok, still beats working in the yard.
Thanks for the video!
Hey Alan, I just completed this little project only I used the SO-239 UHF connectors. I purchased a ABS plastic project enclosure box from Radio Shack. In order to connect to the scope I used 2 uhf to bnc adapters, and then my regular RG-58 patch cables from the radio RF IN, & RF OUT to the dummy load. I tuned my transceiver to 7.100 CW but couldn't get a wave form probably due to the scope not being ajusted. Found SSB worked great & my wife was amazed at her voice print on the scope. 73's
Thank you so much for this video-just getting back into radio after a few years, and always wondered what the oscilloscopes were used for in other ham's setups. 73
Very interesting video, I have never seen the trapazoid pattern on the X-Y mode, very useful indeed! Thanks for sharing.
What a superb scope display!! BRILLIANT.even though i dont understand everything you are saying, no one could explain it better_!
Very nice. Thanks for sharing that circuit with us. I will build one. 73's W5ZX.
I gotta say I like the look and feel of old oscilloscopes like the Tektronix 485
Excellent!! One thing that would be nice, in the future, if possible, would be to see examples of non-linearity, flat topping, and various examples of problems with the TX of SSB, AM, and other modes in a transceiver.
Nice demo. Thanks for taking the time to put it together.
-uploadJ
.
Just what I was looking for! Thanks again.
I just use a scrap bit of wire, wrap about 4 or 5 turns around the coax or one leg of ladder line and clip the oscilloscope probe clips to the ends of the scrap wire. The wire acts like a "sniffer" and picks up a little radiated signal. Its good enough to observe a waveform to check transmissions with. Down side, its not calibrated, but I use this to set up WSPR transmissions to very low levels, and ensure a usable (readable) signal. Hope that helps Kevin.
Great video. One of the most helpfull & useful I have found on TH-cam for Ham Radio.
73's DE K3ZW
Excellent video, thanks and this is just the circuit I am looking for since I want to use my scope for just this purpose on the test bench here now..
Yes, it does help and Thank You. I'm in the process of buying an oscilloscope right now, first one. I'm going to do a bit of experimenting and all this info is very helpful!
Kevin
N2FLP
You really are a great teacher!
Very excellent presentation, thanks W4RFM Bob
Very nice. I've been scouring the web for a circuit like this, CleanRF makes something similar, the RF-SM which is a little pricy for my tastes. Even a search of the ARRL archives didn't reveal any home brew circuits. With radios like the FT-857D that have multiple controls for the microphone audio, i.e. compression level, mic gain, DSP mic equalizer, being able to monitor the SSB RF envelope becomes important in order to properly set the levels. Add in an amplified mic, even more so.
I inherited an oscilloscope, now I can try it out!
This is a great video. I tried this technique to analyze the output of my airband transceiver on a PM3092 Oscilloscope (sniffing the output between the rig and a dummy load), but the computer inside the scope went a bit mental. I am now looking for a Tek scope !
Philips PM3092 oscilloscope goes crazy with 127MHz input
"Puff" is what we've used here since I first heard the term back in 1959 (got my Novice ticket). The term is still widely used today as well.
Sorry, i just forgot to see the final part, good work!!!
john, great explanation you are a genius mate could you possibly do a video on how a car key fob works how to program etc .
please keep the vids coming, john
Thanks for posting this vid! It sure beats a "magic" tee!
First of all, I thank God for your life and for your excellent videos. You are to be
commended for sharing your knowledge. i am beginner in this field so i look to you.
stay bless
Fantastic video. I'd like to see some examples of what to look for in terms of "flat topping" and other errors that show you're signal isn't what it should be.
Good morning, and to think that I just wrap a little wire around my co-ax to check my transmissions! Put the ends in the scope input and bingo, a small RF sample can be seen. But your circuit is certainly much better. Just goes to prove that there is more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak. 73 & 501.
Just found your channel recently. Thank you for the effort you place into sharing your knowledge and the time it takes to produce the video's for TH-cam.
I just bought me a scope in the past couple of weeks and I'm beginning to understand how to use it in my station.
A couple of questions:
1) are you using your scope probes to measure or are you hooking up directly from this board to the scope?
1a) if direct; is the coax attenuated in any means or strictly a straight 50ohm BNC coax like I might have lying around in my shack?
2) you stated that you were measuring a QRP rig. Help me here as I've been an Advanced class for 25 years but as an "appliance operator" only. Now, since I've retired, I'm trying to build me a few antennas and get some more theory behind me. With that... How would you determine value for resistors (wattage value that is) for say a 100 watt rig, a 400 watt rig, a 800 watt rig... all the way up to say legal limit 1500watts?
The main reason I asked (2) is I have purchased an amplifier (Ameritron AL-811H; 800 watts) and I would like to make sure that I'm doing ok with it.
The Scope that I bought is a BK Precision 2190E that I bought from Mouser. (I'm lucky enough to be near Mouser (1/2 hour drive) so I can order and pick up in same day.)) It's a digital 2 channel 100MHz bandwidth; 1GSa/s which for the price ($399.00) I thought was excellent.
Russ
KW5KW
good on QRZ
For monitoring 100W+,. I would probably not use a resistive tap like this. Take a look at my video(s) on RF Samplers / Taps for some ideas.
th-cam.com/video/0Kk_N_TpDeo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html
I enjoyed your video !! Gary Grove
Very, very good video. Thanks !
i have an old scope, but had so much frustration with it to check the 4mhz signal, even when using a DIY highpass filter, i think my problem was trying to use the stock probes, they pick up too much AC noise, i guess i should run a coax from my circuit to the bnc plug
See...apparently I am really screwed up in my understanding of the basics.
To explain a bit my lack of understanding. I got my EE in 1982 and really never used it. Got laid off from Motorola in 1983 and never went back. I got my last ham ticket in 1973 and after a stint in the Air Force and life being what it is, got out of ham radio for about 20 years. So I have retired and have experienced some renewed interest but truthfully, this shows me how much I have forgotten or perhaps never knew.
Alan, thank you for your time creating this fine video. I read through a lot of the replys but did not see anyone ask what is this max wattage this guy will handle ,by the size of the components not much I assume. Thank you Joel
This is pretty cool. I was thinking I could use this to check the quality of the signal of my TinyTrak3, after it goes through the HT.
Perfect and works well. Only subject you didn't address was the two tone, but, I guess thats a different circuit ?
I have two other videos on two-tone testing:
th-cam.com/video/3DxBg6h4Fc8/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/i29pI7okLe4/w-d-xo.html
Great ideas for using an older analog scope as a station monitor. You can never have too many oscilloscopes, right?
Sorry, I read W2AEW's connent and answered my own question.
But again, great video.
Cool idea - I think I'll present this idea to my club as well. We have guys who have no idea about ACL, and like to turn everything to the max. Perhaps if they see the shape of the signal, it wil get it through their heads what proper levels mean.
Though I agree with your analysis that most of the input voltage appears across the 47K resistor in the 690R load case, and it is probably true also for most attached CRO loads, the implication that the circuit could withstand 70V RMS is flawed. The 1N34A PIV rating is 65V, so it would be unsafe to operate it above say 20V RMS (or 8W in 50R) allowing a margin for safety.
Great video ! I really enjoyed it.
Will you stil get a trapezoid in the SSB mode?
Great Video Thanks, I am just about to install a scope into the shack.
Interesting. I am a Ham operator and just got my first oscilloscope so I might have to make this just to have.
Now that one I think I can do, the other one, well I don't think so:-) great video as always, thanks
You are Awesome !
Thank You so Much ⚡🙏⚡
Congratulations!
Wonderful video.
73 de VA6POP
Fantastic, thanks for posting.
Another perfect video I've been looking for sir. Thank you sir. Keep em coming.
Can you do another video on using the bird 43 and slugs please and thanks sir
Seek and ye shall find: th-cam.com/video/149AuSmk4M8/w-d-xo.html
Great video there, i am getting my shack done up and gone get my test equipment out and vids like this are good to see and give me ideas thanks, how would you couple a 2 tone signal for 2 seprate generators when checking flat top in SSB ?
Very interesting. Thanks for the demo.
How many scope do you have in your "shop/shack" there? Looks like a bunch that's for sure. Keep 'em coming. Thanks.
Using a 40 DB attenuator should work nstead of the resistor divider?
That way in case you forget to turn your hundred watt transceiver down. I just want to double-check because would love to build this circuit. I do have a 40 DB RF attenuator so attenuation is not an issue.
Another question would be if I actually attenuated by 40 DB before I even hooked to that box would it affect the AM demod?
I have learned a lot in your videos are very helpful. I am looking into starting to play with radios and maybe work on them just for fun on the side. Just want to have the facts right since nobody else seemed to put them on the Internet. They talk about what they're doing but they don't tell you how it's hooked up. Thank you very much for the informative videos definitely will looking forward to the future ones.
I should add into this as well what kind of setup I will be doing. It will be transceiver to the dummy load. In between those will be a coaxial T to get my RF tap. then it will go through the 40 DB attenuator into the circuit. so will not be a feed thru but more or less acting as just a tap. Hopefully you can visualize what I'm saying. I am bad with wording.
73
ad0am
If you've got a 40dB attenuator that is rated for the power of your transmitter, then that is a fine way to go.
Useful Nice video.
Thanks, Alan, this is just what I need to test my new transmitter (Icom IC-7300) before making my first QSO. Although I can follow your very clear explanation, I'm confused when you say (paraphrasing) "to be sure to size the resistors to be certain they can handle the power they're going to be sensing". I assume your QRP rig is putting out 5W and my 7300 is putting out 100W into a dummy load. But without voltage or current information how does one calculate the power that will be dissipated by the resistors? Sorry for the newbie question. JS2OLO
At 100W, you're likely going to be better off using other sensing methods rather than a resistive tap. See my video at on RF Samplers...
W2aew, Older Transmitters and Radios used theses dark metal tan vacuum tubes that were called i think Emitter tubes which needed to be Positive Bias. Why did these tubes needed to be "positive bias" on the vaccum tubes metal can shielding? What i mean is that if you tried to put your hand and grabbed the metal can shielding you would get shocked from the very high voltage positive bias, not sure why they did this. Any reasons you think?
I have just about watched all your videos and have thoroughly enjoyed everyone. I have just acquired a scope and am looking for ways to learn more about this wonderful hobby. I am in the process of building this project but on a breadboard so I can do minor substitutions of parts to see the changes. Do you have any warnings?
I have a couple pieces of advice:
1) Do not build it on a plug-in breadboard. These do not work well with RF.
2) Be careful about the power rating of the resistors used, depending on the RF power you plan to run. Calculate the power rating needed for the resistors.
3) Do not built both the sampler and demodulator on the same RF tap like I did here. I did it only for convenience. They would never be used this way. Build them separately if you intend to use them for rough linearity checks.
4) You will likely want to put an attenuator ahead of the demodulator for two reasons - to limit the voltage peaks seen by the diodes, and to limit the amount of distortion injected back into the RF path from the detector circuit.
I have a few other videos on RF samplers that you might want to view also.
***** Thank you very much for the advice. I will heed your cautions with great care. So far, no smoke. :-)
Excellent.
I am having difficulty getting the trapezoid reading. I have Dmod to X as indicated by your notation. Sample in Y. GO into X-Y mode, and instead of it going left to right, it goes up and down in a fine point. I have tried swtiching the x and y channels. Everything else seems to be working as it does in your video.
NM, I just figured it out. On my scope I have to plug X into EXT.
Thanks for the great video, Alan! Not only is this a nice and simple mini project for a weekend or a night after work but it also gives you a great tool for testing AND for general learning for those that are relatively new to all of this, like myself. So, thank you!
I do have another mini-project idea though if I may suggest it? A CW practice oscillator. Yes, you get buy 50 different kits for this from Guang Dong Ding Hung Lo Province on Ebay and you can also find many different schematics online as well. You though have a great method of teaching and showing a lot more additional information and show how simple pieces of kit, can be used other places as well as how the end result actually works.
Anywho.....if I had a simple short list of things I would like to see you do. A CW practice oscillator with adjustable tone and volume would be awesome. :-)
N0BPS
+Brian Streufert Thanks - I'll add a code practice oscillator to my list...
+w2aew Thank you! Though I would venture a guess that your "list" with regard to videos you want to do and others want you to do is as long a your arm. I appreciate you even entertaining the idea and its always nice when a YT creator responds and interacts with their audience. So, thank you for that as well!
+Brian Streufert Yeah, the list is pretty long - several pages in a notebook. The CW practice oscillator is interesting because it may be a good venue for something simple like a phase shift oscillator...
+w2aew Well I am glad I was able to make a suggestion that caught some interest! Whatever you chose to do I am sure it will be great, thanks Alan!
Were the capicators used specifically for 40 meters. I built the same sampler but I get some RF in the detected signal. Using on 11 meter band. I have photos but don't know how to sent them to you.
Could you put something together for tuning a 2 meter band pass band reject duplexer, using a tex.465 Scope?
Your video's are the best on youtube.
The Tek 465 scope really isn't the best tool for this job. It is only a 100MHz scope, so the response will be down several dB at 146MHz. It doesn't have a 50 ohm termination, so you'll have to provide a through termination at the input. Even with this, it will be nothing more than a glorified RF power meter that you could use to peak/dip the pass and reject cavities, assuming you have an appropriate signal source to drive the cavities with.
Hi Alan , apart from that Tektronix 485 scppes MAGNIFICENT display are the components and board that you used for that RF sampler demodulator board could they all be submerged in mineral oil ? Ie dumped in a 4ltre paint can as part of a dummy load so239 + the 4 BNC OUTPUTS in the cans lid ?
Cheers Alan.
They probably could.
@@w2aew thanks for the reply..I will give it a crack.
great video, thanks for sharing
Good morning. First of all I want to apologize for my bad English. My question is what is the capacitor value of the RF sample, I don't understand its value... 10pF?. 0.01nF?. It has to be plastic and not ceramic? I loved the video, I have an SM-220 from Kenwood but in the second QTH I want to put the same thing but with an old oscilloscope that I have several. Thank you very much for your answer dear friend, a great teacher although I have a hard time understanding the details by the language.
There are better ways to do the RF Sampling. Check out these videos:
th-cam.com/video/0Kk_N_TpDeo/w-d-xo.html
th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for the share. Just got done building the circuit, but performance isn't what I expected and have some questions hopefully you can address. First thing I notice is that it doesn't seem that useful for sideband. Applying two tones, if I change the modulation, I just get a larger or smaller triangle, but the triangle itself doesn't change shape. Is the trapezoid method meant for only AM use? I see dual triangles opposite one another which may be more useful, but not sure if this circuit can do this.
Another thing I notice is that I can't seem to overmodulate. I increase mic gain and/or tone generator for maximum on AM, but whether the trapezoid or sine wave, they reach maybe 90-95% and go no further. Could this be due to the radio's internal ALC setting?
When I first tried the circuit, I was getting "bitten" when I tried to adjust the tone generator, then I discovered that I had RF sampling going to channel B and modulation sampling going to channel A. Switched them and I don't notice any "bites" now. Does hookup have to be as you did to avoid this issue (RF to A, modulation to B)?
My radio has a built in SWR meter. I notice with the modulating sampler inline, SWR on the radio increases to around 2.5. If I just use the RF sampler, under 1.5. Any ideas why the increase? Note that I didn't build it the way you did. I have a separate small box for RF and another for modulation sampler.
My voltage divider, borrowed from an existing one I made years ago, is 20:1. Does this matter? I also don't have a 0.01 uF cap at the output in mine, just the resistors. Should I add the cap?
Lots of questions, sorry, but new at this sort of thing. Just trying to do it as accurately as possible and thank you in advance.
As described in the notes below the video, this circuit - as shown - can NOT be used to measure non-linearity with the trapezoid pattern since both the sampler and detector are fed with the same RF signal. Refer to the notes appearing below the video. This circuit, as shown, is only suitable for QRP levels of power. See my other videos on RF Samplers to get some ideas for higher power RF monitoring. Yes, both the RF sampler and the detector WILL affect the SWR.
I am wondering about the 1k across the demodulator. This would give a very high cutoff surely? The time constant with the 1000p cap would be 1uS. I tried your circuit out with the values shown and found that sure enough, pretty much all I could see was residual RF and no AF. Increasing the value to 47k gave a good result, nice clear demod and very little RF on the signal. The results are clear but I do wonder if my thoughts are all wet?
+984francis The 1K resistor is just to provide a bleed off path for the charge stored on the 1000 pF capacitor. A higher value will give a slower bleed off rate, and will work fine for demodulating audio frequencies. You're results are fine - simply choose the values to suit your application.
Thank you for your response. . Are you saying that the advice is conflicting because, in fact, the scope input Z is not 50 ohms?If the scope input Z were 50 ohms then the 50 would be across the 690 and that would act like a resistor of 46.62 ohms in series with 47000 ohms thus the 1:1000 voltage divider. But as I understand it you are saying that in fact the input Z is more like 1 Mohm and so the voltage divider is really more like a 690 in series witth the 47000K. Am I understanding what you ?
Issue was with the diodes and one capicator. Box works great now.
Wow that is cool!
This is awesome! Could this concept/configuration be use to monitor a stereo receiver output?
A fun thing to do is to put the scope in XY mode and apply the right and left channels to the two inputs.
@@w2aew Thanks for responding Alan! So with your attenuation device, no danger to the scope? Also, I have an old Sencore vector scope I can have some fun with... Thanks again and looking forward to your next vid!
(I’m thinking yes, but:) Would this also work for checking the CW signal shaping of a QRP transceiver? My natural side tone has a slight key-click. I can’t hear it on another receiver, but I’d like to look at it on the scope anyway.
Yes, you can observe the rise/fall times of the RF envelope, which will give you an indication of the key clicks.
Have you thought about selling a kit? I'd but one. Thanks for the video.
Alan..I had written you a couple of days before and was interested in how you would calculate the power dissipation of the 47K and 690 ohm resistors needed for one leg of the RF sampling circuit. It seems to me that the resistors would have to be significantly more wattage than 1/2 watt. I certainly understand that you are extremely busy, so if you could direct me to a source that might help I would also be appreciative. I got my EE in the 1980's and never really developed the "knack" . Thanks
Very informative and well presented, was looking to buy a ready made unit to do this with my FT817nd and my old Tektronix T935A but as you have shown it is so simple I will build my own, thany you very much.
How about a simple tone generator to go with it?
73
Phil M6MRP
Are you able/willing to give more information on how you came up with that circuit design? It's something I haven't learned how to do yet and I'd like to be able to customize it to whatever equipment I'm using. Also, what was your antenna?
The "monitor" circuit is a simple voltage divider. Values are not critical - just wanted very little loading on the 50 ohm line, so the sum of the resistors is >>50. And, used a reasonably large divide ratio to reduce large RF voltages down to lower levels for the scope input. The demodulator circuit is a very common RF amplitude detector. If all you want/need is to monitor your RF output, there are *many* ways to do this. Check out these videos of mine:
Super Simple RF monitor:
th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html
Basics of RF Samplers:'
th-cam.com/video/0Kk_N_TpDeo/w-d-xo.html
w2aew cddsssdscfrerrfrg
Alan, please let me go back to basics: I was thinking that the 100w generator "looked into" the "rf in" on your diagram and saw the 47k in series with the parallel combination of 690 and 50 (which is the o'scope) with both the 690 and the 50 tied to ground. Is this wrong?
@nflgun In addition being able to monitor the RF waveform when running BPSK3 would be advantageous since it's difficult to set your drive levels without someone else observing your IMD. Question, what kind of waveform would you get if you drove the Ext. trigger with the demod signal? Any chance you'd consider refining the circuit some and maybe writing a QST article? I think you'd be surprised at the response.
Thanks for this, I might dig my scope out now :)
Can this be added to my ATU, taking the transmitter input as the source?
A couple of BNC sockets on the back would make it useful, what happens if the BNC's are not connected to the scope - can it be left inline?
Matty Lad If you have a ATU with unused ports, you can use the technique shown in this video, super simple:th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html
No direct connection to the RF line, nothing to build, works well. Just heed the warnings in the video.
would be really cool to see how the scope is setup in a video for us not real familiar with them
It depends a little on the scope and the type of sampler you're using, but here is a good starting point:
Vertical: AC coupling, V/div as needed to get a good deflection (10-100mV/div typically)
Horizontal: 1 or 2ms/div typically
Trigger: LINE, normal or Auto
EXCELLENT PRESENTATION......TNX NN6AA
Nice vid, thanks, Sure is a nice scope, locks right on to the signal.
DAVE W4GSM
Alan...the crux of my problem I think is that I do not understand how to see that the 50 is in parallel with the series combination of the 690 and the 47000. That is my BIG problem.
Great video. On the de modulator, are the voltages of the capacitors important? Are the cap voltages and values determined by the output power of the transmitter. In my situation, an Icom IC 7300. What were the voltage values for the de modulator caps that you used? I've got a Yaesu YO 100 monitor scope that does the Trap display but I'd rather use my Tektronics 2465 BDM.
Hi,
I can't seem to find you video re: "quick/easy way to sample the transmit output by using an unused antenna port on a tuner." I wonder if you would mind posting a link.
Thank You,
Hello, congratulations, very usuable device.
What is the max. input power? what is the attenuation on RF port?
What is the max operating frequency¡?
73´s de XE1XNP
Dear w2aew,
Are the resistors, caps and the Diode regular off-the-shelf components or are they any of these special RF components?
Just ordinary off the shelf parts.
Hi w2aew, just one question. I don't have an Spectrum Analyzer, so there is a SDR platform calles RTL-SDR (i think you know it) for some kHz to 1.7GHz, how can I use it for doing Spectrum analysis connecting the RF input directly to a transmitter or any source? How can I calculate the input impedance? In order to not to burn the RF input.
See my videos on RF Samplers for more information. The signal level going into the RTL-SDR will need to be very low since it doesn't have a large attenuator built in.
@@w2aew thanks, I will check them. Awesome videos!
I just bought a Yaesu FT817nd two days ago and I do not have any matching antenna at the moment so I was wondering if I could measure the output power of this rig. Then this video seems very helpful. I like all videos by w2aew. By the way, being a physics Ph.D student, I know how individual parts works but I don't have engineering knowledge which is needed for these stuff. I am curious what would happen if the output signal of the FT817nd is directly fed into the scope. what could be the problems and do I fry the Scope or the FT817nd? I have a Tektronix 2225 scope. Thanks.
The FT-817 puts out a maximum of 5W into a 50 ohm load. It is not advisable to transmit directly into the scope for a couple of reasons - mainly because the input impedance of the scope is not 50 ohms. SWR protection in the rig will reduce the power if the output is not loaded with 50 ohms, so you won't get the correct power reading. And of course, you could potentially damage the scope and the rig. To use the scope to measure power, you'll need a 50 ohm thru termination that is rated for 5W operation, or a calibrated RF sampler/tap. You could build a simple resistor divider inside of a dummy load and use that with a 10x probe. I use one of these:
www.terapeak.com/worth/tektronix-bnc-termination-011-0099-00-50-omega-5w-c1-1-139a/231655320319/
Thanks for your quick reply.
I built this circuit and tried it out on a digital scope (Rigol DC1102e). The digital scope give a different look than Alan's analog scope. I posted a video response, if you want to check it out.
great video, I would love to do this. Thanks.
Great vid.i wish i could figure out the settings on my scope to get ssb to read correctly
Typically about 1ms/div horizontal, trigger source set to LINE. Vertical scale as needed, typically about 10-100mV/div.
@@w2aew thank you will try. Im alittle scope challenged..73
Cool vid..ive been trying to set one of these up but cant get settings right for ssb monitoring
Here is one simple way to do it!
th-cam.com/video/2D83xp3H5Bo/w-d-xo.html