I feel the need to reference the fact that Cardassians have an entire genre of storytelling known as "The Repetitive Epic" which seems to circle around the idea of Cardassians giving themselves over to the state to ensure it's survival. The Never Ending Sacrifice of course being the big story that Garak references in Deep Space Nine. It really says a lot about how ingrained the Cardassian brand of facism is by the time of Deep Space Nine.
There were also the Cardassian Mystery novels, where everyone is guilty of something and rather than the reader trying to figure out who is the guilty party, its more about figuring out who is guilty of what crime
Absolutely Based choice. I need more things that have “Sic semper tyrannis” on it and no Americans, the phrase doesn’t mean “shoot Lincoln” a man let’s just say proves the point of a similarly assassinated leader “history is written by the victors.” - Nope I’m not giving a name, TNG only’s will have to watch DS9.
Yeah, it can be depressing how little some people understand. To them, you have 'democracy' (Goodies) and 'fascists' (Baddies), lacking all nuance. As an example, I ran into someone recently who claimed that the Romulans can't be democratic because they're authoritarian. They then went on to claim that unless every aspect of government is democratically represented, you aren't democratic. So both the ideology and the existence of the Continuing Committee and (presumably if we believe Q) Emperor excludes it. By definition, they at the same time claimed the Federation isn't a democracy because it contains constituent bodies which for example, are monarchies. Andoria and Hysperia being two examples. Obviously, this is very stupid. Were such a definition to be applied to reality, then the UK wouldn't be a democracy. Nor indeed would Norway, which is currently ranked the most democratic nation on Earth (as of 2023) while being a constitutional monarchy.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 A tyrant is not necessarily authoritarian. At least some tyrants took power and then brought freedom to the people from an authoritarian state. Vladimir Lenin for example was absolutely a tyrant, but considering while he absolutely ruled with an iron fist, the people in general had more liberty and freedom then under the tsardom, and even if we remember the early soviet famines, average life expectancy under the soviet union never fell under the level of the late tsardom (except for a very brief period during ww2), thus saying he was authoritarian would not really be true, as he gave people more freedoms, more wealth and longer life then they had before.
Completely unrelated, but it needs a video. Q knew about the Dominion. He introduced Star Fleet to the Borg so they built war ships out of fear and realisation they were outgunned. With all those warships ready just in time for the Dominion War. A war they would have lost without the anti Borg fleet. .
I mean Q introduced the Enterprise-D to the Borg because of how alien they were to test the humans to see how they would react to such an uncompromisingly hostile and alien threat. There was no frame of reference for the Borg through which Picard could understand, unlike all of the species that mankind had encounter before who had very “human” conceptions of the universe. If anything Q knew the Borg would attack humanity and wanted to prepare them directly for that and not the Dominion who, despite being run by goo people, have a very similar conception of the universe to the Federation.
Now THAT is an interesting take. I'm trying to find a devil's advocate position and it's not immediately apparent. I would love to see a deep dive into this theory.
@@Nom_AnorVSJediPersonally I think that the Q are humans is why. They're just traveling back in time to make sure that humanity reaches the point where they ascend.
Quite the balance of somber and comical for this video. Combined with a third of the video basically being done to address the internet misconceptions. I'd also add that a major factor in the rise of the Cardassian Union was extreme scarcity of certain critical resources, which along with their various external wars created a vicious cycle of a negative feedback loop. Another intriguing introspection into the political structure of a major Trek faction.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 One might add the principal of autarky in Fascist systems as the Realpolitik part of the justification of expansion, while the fear of the "Other" or external enemies and superiority of the race is the second part of the equation. One brings to mind the current North Korean regime which has diverged from communism into something different: A hereditary regime based on nationalism centered the belief that the North Koreans are the "cleanest people," and the need for Juche, or autarky.
I remember reading or hearign somewhere that the Cardassians literally looted their own museums for critical resources like dilithium and precious metals useful in technology the before their practical uses were discovered, were used for decorative purposes in their cultural treausres...which is SAD AF>
I just finished watching the ds9 two parter that introduced the Maquis. Where we learn a little about Cardassian politics and now immediately after viewing, I see this. Great timing. 👍🏻
Holy mother of based! Someone who actually understands what Facsim is, and doesn't mix it up with, "When someone I don't like does an authoritarianism." Very well layed out and plainly conveyed. Hats off to you my good sir, and a good job on demystifying the evil of Fascism.
"That, and Lancasters" Hahahah. I wasn't expecting to laugh out loud considering the subject matter but here we are. A+++++++ Also, I quite like your summery. I firmly agree that names have meaning, specifics are important, and details matter. Again, really like your take on the politics and governments of Trek.
TBH I think referring to the Dominion as British-style Imperialist is missing the mark. I actually think they could absolutely fit the definition of a fascist state, but at best they're a theocratic racial-supremacist autocracy
The Dominion seems too hands-off in the direct every-day governance of its members to be truly fascist but it's getting close. I'd classify them as a theocratic, founder-supremacist feudal Empire.
The Dominion changes up tactics. By the end of the war sure they're Fascist buy when we first meet them. They're so hands off you can't really say that.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 as I say in my comment it depends who you are, the quickening shows what they do to societies that displease them. However as I said it really depends on where you are with them. The founders are atheistic isolationist xenophobes who really just created the empire to be left alone for instance.
They fit more the North Korean model of a fake communist state wrapping of an Absolute Monarchy. The difference here being the Dominion has no king but a collective of shapeshifters and that they are subtle enough to first try to subdue people without them really knowing what's happening. In short it's a mix between North Korea and the European Union with bio engineered death machines as soldiers.
The thing is the British Empire literally created concentration camps so I think the point Venom is making is not that the Dominion is free from evil. So many countries are still scarred by the Empire. Rather that the Dominion does not fit the narrow view of fascism outlined in the video.
PLS DON'T TAKE VENOM-SENPAI'S MONEY TH-cam. Ok now the serious. Its interesting how much the extreme ideologies have in common with another. A strong military caste, service to the state, extensive and detailed public education, the constant external enemy. Is it the USSR, the 3rd R-ike, or the Cardassian Union? And I love the comment too in how such states, regardless of their design, are doomed to failure. Very well done.
the main Difference between communist and Facist Ideologies is that communism has to have internationalist ambitions... the revolution must spread... (Eventually) while facism is content to sit quietly in a corner...(if its being smart)
@venomgeekmedia9886 I'd argue that Facism often requires an "other" to hate to bring a source of unity to the nation, and this often drives it to inevitably expand.
@@birdmonster4586 One might add the principal of autarky in Fascist systems as the Realpolitik part of the justification of expansion, while the fear of the "Other" or external enemies and superiority of the race is the second part of the equation. One brings to mind the current North Korean regime which has diverged from communism into something different: A hereditary regime based on nationalism centered the belief that the North Koreans are the "cleanest people," and the need for Juche, or autarky.
@@birdmonster4586 true but that "other" can be pretty broad. if you look at Mussolinis italy the "other" seems to be communists, and various non italians. so it can vary
@@venomgeekmedia9886 TOS did that a lot frankly. Piece of the Action, raid the Gangster movie costumes. Bread a Circuses, raid the Roman Epic movie costumes
@@scockery Indeed; though the Enterprise episodes has the added flavor of being actual factual 1940's German Nazis (well, as actual factual as fiction gets ya) as opposed to inspired by or cosplaying or even hard light constructs thereof
Finally someone who doesn’t think every system that isn’t liberal democracy is “muh ww2 baddies” Also boomers are extremely annoying on this calling anything or one that dares questions their wisdom. Acting like they faught personally in a war they weren’t even born in. Alright rant over. (Also your Augments Storyline Video should of gotten more likes)
Also Dominion politics would be interesting. I’m strangely curious on a Dominion Constitution. I know the founders wouldn’t have created one because they live as biologically immortal pysche goo. But “The Founder Fathers.” Is just too good a meme. Bet the Dominion is much harsher in the Gamma Quadrant considering how paranoid the Founders are. I know what we saw on the station wasn’t totalitarian but only because the Dominion needed good public image until the Alpha Quadrant was secured. Quark semi points this out to Kira and Odo during the occupation.
I wonder what does Gul Dukat think of Earth's history, in particular the three world wars? It's crazy how the Cardassians were at one point a very peaceful people until they became what they are as we all know of them since TNG and DS9. Also I like it that Cardassian early warp capable starship vaguely looks similar to the TOS era Federation starship.
I’m loving that a fellow Brit is calling the Dominion “The British Empire in Space”! 😂 I don’t totally agree with you, but it’s a brilliant line regardless. The Dominion is a very specific kind of hegemonic autocracy. If fascism can be compared to autocracy - and clearly in many ways it can be - then there have been some very obvious narrative devices in Deep Space Nine which deliberately compared the Dominion to fascists. Weyoun’s suppression and censorship of Jake Sisko’s news reports from the occupied Terok Nor being a glaring example. Does that mean the Dominion are fascists? No. Does it mean some writers on the show wanted to be exceptionally simplistic, or just lazy, in expressing what kind of threat to freedom and democracy in the Federation was posed by the Dominion? Yes, invariably so. In the Dominion, the Founders have built an autocracy for the sake of power, and they wield their power for the sake of maintaining their autocracy. That’s really a simple way of putting it. And of course, the applicable narrative the female changeling reminds us of in so many of her appearances, is that the Founders maintain all of this to control solids, because they have a fear of solids being a threat to them which goes back many epochs. In this respect, they aren’t literal fascists. They’re simply an embodiment of how fear, and an acute superiority complex, can override every kind of desire for freedom. Everything that Odo learns about his people, gives him this wondrous sense that they’re “free”. But once he learns of their ambitions and agenda, he realises that they aren’t free at all - they’ve imprisoned themselves in their own grandeur, and need to control a universe that profoundly terrifies them.
They are Spartans, ruling over conquered helots. They’ve just outsourced the soldier role to the Jem’Hadar. If not for ketracel white, they’d have to be soldiers themselves.
@ That’s a pretty fair comparison. I just don’t think the Founders treat their vassals exactly as the British Empire did. And there’s definitely some theocratic elements to their political structures, given that the Vorta and Jem’Hadar view the founders as gods.
@@NineWorldsFromDrewIf adding theocracy, the Changelings/Founders view themselves as the Holy Roman/Catholic Church and use the Jem'Hadar as the Knights Templar or Crusaders during The Crusades of the Dark Ages/Medieval period. The fact the Vorta act like they're the go-betweens for the Founders and Jem'Hadar with the ketracel-white being the same/closest equivalent to the "sacrament" to prove their loyalty/fealty to their "divine" masters
Honestly one of my fave videos of yours. Plainly stated and laid out, we can link it to real world examples. very apt in the modern era. Thanks VGM, top stuff.
My favorite villains in Trek, were a ruthless military power, with a cunning intelligence agency always seeking to undermine enemies and watch the populace for disloyalty. They were called Klingons. But in the 24th century, they have strange things on their skulls, and are called "Cardassians."
@@lynngreen7978 Of course it probably would have helped if in TNG established that a bunch of Cardassian ships together was a threat like the Klingons got to cover for the fact that one on one they get their asses kicked.
I agree, Fascisms is now Coke (any soda) or Kleenex (Facial Tissue). I am glad you take time to give us a real answer in the made up world of Star Trek.
So the Cardassians look up at the space Romans and they want to be as strong as powerful as them but only end up being a groteque, monstrous and weaker parody of them... *They really are the space Italians*
Except Cardassia had a much better intelligence service til they made a joint venture with the Romulans that went very sideways. There's no Italian equivalent to Garak.
An actual intelligent description of what Fascism actually is and you hit the nail on the head saying it's a word that's overused in today's general discourse. Knowing the history around Star Trek most fans would recognise the Carddasians as fascist villains I doubt many would argue against that point.
I think it's pretty appropriate in a lot of cases today, mind you. Part of the problem is in fact that people just think it's a name to call people rather than a serious warning.
@@OllamhDrabMost people don't know the Angry Austrian Painter took inspiration from US policy towards Native Americans and Jim Crow laws. Our society has more in common with fascism than we want to admit. And some want to prevent acknowledgement of that.
I just want to say that you missed an opportunity to play a bunch of WW2 German stock footage and playing some dramatic royalty free music over it. Actually, with your accent I kind of hope you'll someday consider parodying Mark Felton, just talking about some of the fictional lore of Star Trek instead of weird WW2 anecdotes. I think it'd be fun. EDIT: Oooh, maybe talk about the Na'kuhl Time Travel Nazi collaboration, or the Ekosian Nazis. To keep on theme.
Didn't Dukat tell Sisko that the military had been in charge for 5 centuries in the episode "Defiant?" So, not a recent development. And honestly that timeline meshes better with the timeline needed to develop a culture like we see.
i'll double check but thats an odd Retcon which makes out the military to be more competent than it deserves if it stays in power that long. bear in mind people have short memories and things can change fast. more has happened in the last 4 years than arguably the last 10
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The military only needs to be marginally competent because they have the guns. But also, to be honest, for a smaller power the Cardassians haven't done that poorly. Even as the smallest "Great Power" their space is pretty large by Alpha Quadrant standards with many systems. As many populated systems as the Romulan Empire which is more than twice as large in sheer size.
@@draochvar9646Well 40k IS both, a Lot and to a degree. And a Lot Else, AS you could expect from a Galaxy spanimg Empire in which travel time can Take years to centuries of Realtime.
A lot of conservative parties in the world which were once centre-right are now far right like the Republicans. Once they loved NATO and international organizations like the UN now they are strictly isolationists. They are also anti-immigrant and use them as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the world. Sounds familiar. Democrats are now in the same area of the political compass where the Republicans once were.
@@Broockle At least in American politics gets thrown around often, and other than a few examples of sub groups within the major groups people throw it around to describe what republicans and democrats are doing and/or will do during their elected terms. It's a mess that people use to trigger emotions. discriminating against transgenders and banning books? Fascists! Demanding we can't leave our homes and telling us what we can say to other people? Fascists! Both have explanations as to why pople believe those things and from the other side they see it as opression and the first boogy man they summon is "fascism" and the nationalist german sasuage party......
My man, you spent the first 10 minutes giving the very best description of fascism I've ever encountered on the internet. Thank you for taking the time to get it right. No one else does, and I mean that. The best part is that you did it all in the name of accurately describing Star Trek lore.
I vaguely recall that before the military takeover of Cardassian society, they had a profoundly inept and decadent government. I remember this coming from the TNG episode where Picard is being tortured into saying he sees five lights when there is only four.
Great video! I love the lore deep dives which aren't just shooty shooty bang-bang, and the humour definitely appeals as a fellow Brit. I always feel a bit sorry for the Carassians, the comparison with Italy definitely fits, minus living in the shadow of a mighty precursor civilisation.
While I agree with your overall thesis here, I would really have liked you to go through the criteria in Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism to show how Cardassians actually are, in an academic sense, fascist.
The Austrian and spanish facists liked the idea of the church having a lot of power i mean they are probaly good pals with clerical facists so not all facists are anti religion
This makes the governmental structure of the Cardassian Union vs. United Federation of Planets vs. Romulan Star Empire somewhat easier to understand, especially with the discussion of how "fascism" is currently being overused as a catch-all for anything "evil." I think one of the best aspects to describe the CU was from "Chain of Command" and makes the militaristic society somewhat more like an authoritarian nationalist autocracy as Picard tells Gul Madred after his daughter leaves the room; "If a child can devalue the other, they can devalue anyone...even their parents." The fact that Garak is only shown to care about his mother and Tam Elbrum (likely because they're his parents) and states during "The Way of the Warrior" that despite disliking Gul Dukat was willing to stand beside him in the sake of their shared desire to protect Cardassia. Whether this was a sign of loyalty to "party" or his homeworld also shows his willingness to preserve what he holds dear, especially since he and Legate Damar were willing to give their lives to free Cardassia from Dominion control
@@colonyofrochellaprimeExcept Franco's regime wasn't exclusively Fascist. It was a coalition that included Fascists, but also faithful Catholics, Monarchists, Carlists, capitalists, etc. The defence and promotion of Catholicism wasn't merely to placate the masses, it was a central pillar that held Franco's coalition together, it was using him as much as he was using it.
It's also worth pointing out that the Spanish have always been rabidly catholic its what prompted them to rise up against the french in the napoleonic wars.
@@colonyofrochellaprimethe Catholic Church in Spain took and sold 300,000 children of francos political enemies, they did similar things for Pinochet in Chile..
@@the_Kutonarch Yes, this was even reflected in the new uniforms of the Falange which included the Falangist blue shirt, military belts, and the red Carlist beret.
I’m not sure your categorization of fascism is so separate from conservatism, and it has to do with devotion to hierarchy. Innuendo Studios made more than a couple videos deconstructing the ideologies of fascism and conservatism and Kraut made a video on Realism with a section talking about “the destruction of modernity” both invoked and enacted by fascist movements at the time. Basically, fascism is the ideology that defines anything by its utility to the state- defines persons, families, communities, demographics, industries, and military by their service to the state. And the fascist state in question is never egalitarian, but hierarchical according to “traditional values”, especially when those values are morally irrelevant- “race”, national-birthplace, gender, sexual orientation, religion, “handicap” etc… Calling fascism a “revolutionary” ideology only makes sense if it’s a revolution _against_ modernity and any enlightened ideas of personhood as a moral end in itself, and _for_ the hierarchy of conservatism.
it is precisely that devotion to the state that means its a product of modernity. remember after WW1 there are a lot of new Nation States that went through their first major war which discredited the old aristocracy. Fascism is a response to that
Your definition makes the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics fascist. The country that had internal passports that restricted where people could live based on their race/national origin, a hierarchy based on religious membership (discrimination against members of traditional/non-Marxist religions), socialist masculinity to counter the homosexual fascist menace and hierarchy based upon proletarian credentials and membership in the party.
@@samuelskinner7704I mean, many non-authoritarian leftists would argue the USSR was actually fascist than socialist or communist. The USSR and WWII Germany were pretty hostile to worker ownership or representation. They also hated individual liberty and had similar views of homosexuality.
@@richardarriaga6271 Non-authoritarian leftists were claiming Marxism would lead to totalitarianism while Marx was alive. This leads to 'fascism is socialism in practice' due to the lack of true socialism regimes. This isn't entirely wrong, but it falls to capture what people are complaining about when they talk about fascism or socialism.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think this is missing the point of fascism and its view of a 'state'. As Kraut explains, Carl Schmitt or 'the Nazi lawyer who abolished law' codified the fascist state as one that *_rejects_* institutions of liberal democracy, popular sovereignty, and rule of law and accountability- the 'State of Emergency' as a _permanent_ stance. To paraphrase, to a fascist of any stripe, law is whatever serves the race/state, therefore lawlessness is the fundamental base; might makes right, and the will to exercise power through violence is all that matters. No one can ever have a legal defense for any wrong done to them because it would undermine the power of that fascist 'state', and there must always be an enemy that threatens to undermine that state because if there's no threat, there's no need for the permanent 'state of emergency'. This is where a never-ending stream of victims must serve as 'enemies' and be accused and sentenced for the good of the race/state. If you remember the portrayal of Cardassian criminal trials, I think that's the most fundamental form of a fascist state. Even when O'Brian is saved, it's only because a scheme to uphold fascist power had to be exposed so that acquitting O'Brian would be the only course to preserve that power.
Very interesting video and I would love to see a follow up done in regard to the timescale of the Bajoran occupation, when it began and how it changed because of changed in Cardassian government. Likewise it would be good to see a similar clarification of the Bajoran occupation and comparison to European colonial history. If that's not too dark!
@florianschneider3982 this is why I think a video would be very interesting. Many of the European countries both at the time and now think their control was benevolent and beneficial. Those colonised countries have a different opinion. The Belgian Congo being one of the worst examples and would I'm sure make for a good comparison with Bajor. The other thing to bear in mind is that neither the real life or fictional occupations/colonial projects were static. They may have begun as footholds into territories based on trade then expanded into getting as much out of the natural resources of the controlled territories and eventually becoming more brutal when uprisings against foreign rule began as the empires began to fold up. The British in Kenya, the French in East Asia etc. I've seen the Cardassians called "space nazis" before but that to me is lazy because it downplays how genocidal the real nazis were and how Cardassia bears closer resemblance to other imperial powers who history has been kinder to.
@@florianschneider3982 how brain dead must you be to say that really it was soooo great for all Africans under all European occupations to be ruled by apartheid it must be so good to have your own natural resources stolen from under your feet and get diddy squat but famine and genocide in return.
Hey venom, your friend over at Retro-Badger-Gaming channel episode Enterprise Refit VS Enterprise A NCC 1701 - Both Ways Star Trek Starship Battles gave you a shout out!
@@SymbioteMullet I haven't watched him in years, but he was always obnoxious and his theories always seemed either 2 dimensional and bias to his own political views.
@@SymbioteMullet I'm more an Airplay kind of guy.. The politics thing aside because that's just going to cause a fight given I'm never what anyone thinks ;P The Gelato thing came from my subscribers and inside jokes that kept popping up in the comments. I've honestly only ever eaten gelato like.. 3 times.. :P I do claim that Gelato became a recurring theme on discovery because of me.. Though being associate with discovery isn't the greatest boast ever either ;P I'd rather be considered toxic politically.
For the most part Cardassia seems to be all about 'the state' without any sort of glorious leader or focal point, which is common with most real world fascist or statist dictatorships; Germany, Italy, North Korea etc. I suppose the Soviet approach was, intended, somewhat, to be about the state rather than a glorious leader, but still ended up with Stalin, so... There's probably a fair bit of Stalinism mixed in with the Cardassian state, really! Once Gul 'loves a statue' Dukat takes over, at that point things would line up much more closely with real world fascism, or even nazism. You could certainly argue Cardassia's development in DS9 somewhat mirrors Germany prior to WW2; Militarist Empire > Weak civilian government > fascist takeover led by ex officer.
In the wake of Stalin and Kruschev's efforts to dismantle his personality cult, Communism's godhead transitioned to the state rather than a man. So in a sense you hit the nail on the head.
See in regards to the Soviet Union it is interesting, originally it was the PARTY who had control but then during the civil war as the party became divided Lenin banned factionalism (aka any opinion that wasnt his) at least for as long as the civil war was going on. Initially only used to push away people like Alexandria Kollontai who was increasingly critical of Lenin and put her in the position of "Ambassador to Norway" where she could do nothing, this eventually became the justification for the purges and political repression. However, Lenin died before the ban was revoked and the ban remained until the end of the Soviet Union. Stalin was not actually the official leader of the USSR, as he was not the premier, he was the general secretary (at the start of his rule, after WW2 came to Russia he became Premier until his death). However, due to the General Secretary being the one who chose who did and didnt get into the party, he had a lot of power. Anyone he let into the party now owed him for their position, any of the others who were vying for control after Lenin's death like Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Trotsky etc were all undermined by him as the party was now filled with yes men for stalin, so one by one they faced persecution as he took total control. This changed when Krushchev came to power and he issued Destalinisation which returned things to the party having control like under Lenin. Ironically Krushchev was one of the Yesmen Stalin put into power. Of course, regardless of whether it was the Party, General Secretary, or Premier in control, the USSR was still an inherently authoritarian state, but compared to other authoritarian states it is so much more fascinating imo. To actually bring this back to Star trek and the Cardassians, they definitely had influence from the Soviet Union. The obsidian order seems more like the KGB than it does the SS, SA or the Gestapo and the show trials they conduct (seen primarily in the DS9 episode 'Tribunal') are straight out of Stalin's great purges.
At the risk of being a pedantic egg, I think the Cardassian Union never quite forgot that it existed to serve the people. When Cardassian soldiers turned their guns on the Jem’Hadar en masse, they named the city the Dominion had destroyed. When they switched targets during the battle in space, they often placed themselves in positions to support and defend alliance ships. The soldier fought and died, according to their mythos, for the people of Cardassia. I think that love of Cardassia was hijacked for their fall to fascism, but in the throes of betrayal at the hands of the Dominion? It went straight back to where it was supposed to be. Not ‘for the Union’, but ‘For Cardassia’.
5:57: I think that mockery against such people is the most powerful weapon: well that and Lancasters. Do we count that as a Venomism like Drachinifel has his Drachisms because it sure sounded like one?
I never thought of them as fascist, but the Mussolini style makes sense. Not sure if I really agree on the Dominion, though, but we can wait for that episode.
it is sad today the discourse is always "bad people are the worst people that ever existed" it really makes story telling harder, it makes conversation and debate harder.. and it doesn't make it easier for anyone but the bad guys! lol
@@tim4330 God forbid someone wants to portray the genocidal fascist as a bad person. Grow up, and stop letting the colour of peoples hair get your panties in a twist.
It's also funny how different societies view fascism. Here in Germany, the origin country for that movie-villain (stereo)type, we have a far more strict and narrow definition than Italy, where the term itself originates. Then there is the American understanding which is again different, and the Russian one is different to either of them, and so on.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 This I've no clue about abroad, but here in Germany, it used to be a very heavy thing to be hurled around, but it also eroded a fair bit in latest years with the right of certain parties. Now, you're bound to be a fascist to someone. Far-right fascist or far-left fascist (yes, there are people who really think those who are against fascism are fassists themselves), fascists elites or fascist plebs, etc...
So all such states in the variations we have experienced will fail. That isn't to say that a perpetual fascism might exsist one day, but that fascism will be one where you don't understand you in it. Im not saying there are modern governments that do this, we are fortunately still in a world were debate is common and even when an opposing side has power people arn't silenced..... even if you hear them yell all the time they are being silenced.
the reason fascism is so overused is because of poor understanding of what it means, it's became a swap in for the term autocracy or any other form of authoritarian government. Mostly due to a very surface level of education in the united states on world war two. as the primary idealogical warfare was marxist communism vs Italian Fascism(and the offshoots it created such as the NSDAP). Infact people misuse it by referring to it as a far right idealogy, when it's more of a centrist form of authoritarianism as it's origins were a perversion of socialism which was rejected by the far left in italy and in germany. So they took it as a third way, and tried to reclaim the word socialism, by turning it in to a bastardized form of nationalism. (the word itself) It is mostly germany though that created this misunderstanding because of AH's actions as furher of Germany after winning the election. His night of long knives in which he had the leftist elements of the party purged and took a sharp turn to the right. It has left an outsized imprint on our society not quite understanding what the word is and what it means. That's why it's overused IMO.
It is amazing how people don't recognize that Fasism and Communism are different versions of the same type of government. The end goals are the same. Communist Karl Marxism used by the Soviet Union has its goal as socialism. Everything is based on that concept. Now look at the fasists whose goal is exactly the same thing. Nazis also known as "The National Socialist German Workers' Party", goals were the same exact thing as their communist enemies. Both had secret police crushing the public, both ruling philosphies were basically the same. Economic approach was a bit different where communists had total control of all companies, fasists allowed crony capitalism to exist as long as it did exactly what they wanted. In my opinion both are leftist ideals of government, where the collective national identity rules with an iron fist. Individual rights are not acceptable or allowed.
I can definitely see that, especially as people seem to forget that "Nazi" is merely a short form of "National Socialist" and "Nazism" refers to "National Socialism" and anyone who merely dislikes someone (like Trump) will throw out the term or use it for something where there's a strict adherence to a subject; "grammar Nazi," without thinking. It's likely that American politics is so binary that people get pigeonholed for their beliefs (Conservative or Liberal, Democrat or Republican) and aside from the self-redundancy of anti-facist (opposing something by acting in opposition to the thing) no one really wants to dig beneath the "top level" of the meaning
I think the reason "Fascism" is thrown around alot is because its the be all and end all Authoritarian ideology. Other authoritarian ideologies dont require complete dedication to the state and only the people to play ball, Fascism does because the crux of its ideology lies at the feet of the state. Yes Fascism is a centrist ideology, as whilst they often have a private capitalist economy they also uphold a collective identity based around Nationality/Race (Which according to Fascism are upheld by the state and vice versa) rather than Class like that of Marxist/Anarchist Socialism.
kudos for the dominion british empire comparsion -- i always wondered what would fit best but never could get a grasp on it... soviet union would work in a more abstract sense as there always was the core russian ruling class (founders), the broader minions of them in the republics (vorta), the masses of available soldiers if needed (jem hadar). but yeah, i feel like british empire fits in well there.
Quick note - aristocratic rule and fascism are perfectly compatible. Fascist Italy was a good example of this. The king remained as head of state throughout the 20 year rule of his appointed fascist govt. It was do much so a royal fascist dictatorship that upon its fall, Italy ended monarchy to rid itself of the fascists.
@venomgeekmedia9886 I can't begin to imagine what reading of history leads you to think that. Vitor Emmanuel installed fascism, backed it, and reigned throughout it.
@venomgeekmedia9886 Looking at other the Startrek species, why not label the Romulans fasist themselves? The romulans have a repressive secret police who tortures and kills civilians. Don't go by the roman empire label given by the writers since we know that technically the Roman republic ended when the Roman Republic transitioned to the Roman Empire and the senate's power transferred to the Roman Emperor. Maybe we can say that the Romulan Empire is a mixture of Royal and fasist government?
@venomgeekmedia9886 Looking at other the Startrek species, why not label the Romulans fasist themselves? The romulans have a repressive secret police who tortures and kills civilians. Don't go by the roman empire label given by the writers since we know that technically the Roman republic ended when the Roman Republic transitioned to the Roman Empire and the senate's power transferred to the Roman Emperor. Maybe we can say that the Romulan Empire is a mixture of Royal and fasist government?
I have describe the major races this way. Klingons were clearly Commmunist in TOS with kor as a party elite. by TNG it turned into more imperial japan. Romulans. ROME, enough said. Cardassian were facsist but do agree more itlaiin fascist then nazi with a bad of soviet union. Borg. the new Communist. Dominion I have said a style of imerpial;ism but the dark side ofthe old British empire would agree with.
I used to wonder why Cardassians and Romulans were not at each other’s throats. Neither is the type to want a power they don’t control in power or gaining power. And I was kinda hoping to see that fight play out.
They were usually friendly powers. The reason being they are no where near one another. The Federation sits in-between them. Without a mutual border, or parallel interests in territories they have little reason to be rivals. On the contrary, it makes them natural allies which they have been before in lore. The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar attack was but the most recent example of cooperation.
I was dreading this episode after seeing how much you love the blatantly evil Romulan system of government but aside from the fact that the nazis were never actually socialists I basically agree with what you've said,
People who throw around the term fascist i can tell never read page one of "The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini. But because i actually wanted to truly know what Fascism is, i went to the actual source. And talk about a walk through the mind of a madman.
Do you think there was a point where it could have been saved? With interference from Section 31 or Federation micro management? Would it have been possible for Cardassia to shift to a republic or some form of managed democracy?
Whilst i don't like misuse of definitions the problem is a bunch of people are fine with authoritarians or other clearly inappropriate leaders. Explained it to people and where it leads to and theyre like "so what, theyre doing what i want". Also, if people waving the red white and black thingy think the authoritarian is ok do i really need to worry about which political dedinition we're using or should i be more worried about the inevitable journey and destination which is pretty much the same
Most people use "fascism" when they mean either totalitarianism or authoritarianism. I've always gone by Umberto Eco's "14 points of fascism" essay. It's definitely worth a read.
Not wanting to call everything I don't like fascists is peak fascism. One common simile that is used to illustrate the defense between liberal/democratic state and the fascist one is a Night Watchmen. The liberal ones being a night watchman, keeping peace putting down occasional disputes but otherwise leaving a people alone. But to quote PotatoMan himself "The Fascist State is wide awake and has a will of its own. For this reason it can be described as “ethical". Always be wary of anyone who wants to rule over you out of the kindness of his heart.
Fascism has a very specific definition and it is actually quite popular in the world today, particularly the United States and Europe. It is slightly overused in that the fascists also call the Liberals fascists, and not enough people are aware of the fascism that they either support or tolerate, so presumably if they ever use the word it is in a flawed way, but on the whole, the idea that the word is overused is itself a narrative masking the abundance of fascism.
A lot of people think facism is loud marching songs and uniforms - that is part of it, but not all of it. As Mussolini himself said it's a merger between corporate and state and should be called Corporatism. I think that this has been forgotten, subsumed and degraded and we're heading in that direction now in many of the Western democracies and part of the problem, is, as you rightly say by people screaming "fascist" at anything they don't like. The word, the meaning and the reality have been dulled and thus ignored. If you drill down, you're able to see that corporations hold a lot of power. They pay very little tax, they can coopt governments (if you make us pay tax, we'll pull XYZ costing thousands of jobs, etc), they can flout rules (punishment by fine = legal for a price) and ministers often consult with CEO's across the globe. Anyway, enough of reality - great video, great insight and as always, a pleasure to watch! Please keep up the good work Venom o7
So I agree with most points and disagree with a few. Firstly I do believe a revolutionary Ideal can have a conservative backing. Nationalism is a very important part of fascism, its one of the things that helps separate between many past governmental forms and modern Ideas. To believe in the state you need to have an strong Idea of what that state is, and generally considering your culture or people as superior to another is a also a discriminatory Idea. It's one of the reasons I say I'm a proud American, but I am by no means a nationalist. The nationalist feelings are often defined by what we feel our nation SHOULD be, not by what it currently is, and that is the bread and butter of a fascist regime. That's where the conservatism lies in the revolution, although often as a tool as new power symbols are created to supplant the old, it is still a vehicle of change. Those conservative values are as quickly discarded if needed at the first possible signs of no longer aiding the continued power of the state. In addition, I think you downplay the use of religion in these movements. They also use religion, in some cases old romanticized versions of the religion, in some cases deals with powerful religious movements to solidify their rule. Almost all nationalist fascisms that have arisen cite following the "classic religion" or have used former religious imagery and thought to stir up the people. Spanish fascism used classic Christianity to justify their side in the civil war to fight the other revolutionists.... basically with just modern Spain burning in the process. Germany used this with both calling to classic religions, or at least Wagnarian versions of those religious tales, and making a deal with the catholic church to help grow the state. None of the religious ideas would survive clashing with the state but would be used as needed. In the end you only really forgot extremist nationalism, something oft forgotten about today as everyone in the world seems to either be nationalist or antinationalist, not just people living under a government. Other than that, spot on, good stuff as always.
Thanks. Interesting point on Religion obviously I said for the cardassians religion is not part of the Facsist vision. You refer to Spain which I think is the exception because Franco probably wasn't a Fascist till he won the war. But if you look at Italy its very much secular, and with regards to the National socialists does making up a obscure neo-pagan religion count especially because even people in the party thought it was weird.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with you, and while the Cardassian people were said to be a spiritual and artistic people once if any religion was around it was probably pushed aside as anti-state, or at least not Pro state. Fascist examples we have in history almost all have nuance to them. In the end I think it can be summed up by a network of state supporting industries that help keep the populace stuck in their nationalist fervor. If religion can be used it will, in the case of the Italians there was kind of just an assumption that they would be catholic, it was the religion of the late roman period after all(at least they see it as that continuation after the schism) and Italy was to be the new Rome, so as long as the religion didn't step out of line they would just be accepted. That's all a part of the network and seductive nature of nationalism especially in the extreme. Your example does define the Cardassians very well, and is used well. It was intended to be a fascist state and it is a good example of one where they make great baddies in a TV show but we can also have heart wrenching characters against the norm..... or those like Damar and his nationalism about what Cardassia is changing by the time of his uprising.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I must reiterate @CinnamonKnightEntertainment's reference to nationalism. It isn't simply loyalty to the State, but to an idealized concept of the People/Nation, however that's defined. But fascists insist that the People is under threat from within. The Nation is contaminated with "those people," minorities that are both pathetically inferior to the People and a terrible threat to it. It's true that, depending on how the People is defined, minorities do not need to be racial. For example, religious nationalists say that only their own faithful are real (Nation)-ans In the case of Cardassia though, I doubt the Bajorans would ever be accepted as part of the same Nation. At best there might be "good ones" that know their place, but nationalism _needs_ internal threats to maintain it's legitimacy. Rebellious colonized "terrorists" make a perfect internal threat, whether Bajoran or Maquis.
if we're using the classical definiton then yes, very yes. in expanded material they try to make them resemble the german model but that kinda falls down because executing mass Genocide while also ruling a galaxy doesn't really work. (theres a reason they waited till the war started before implementing their plans.)
Based on the title, I hope this video goes all the way back to Bruce Jenner's Olympic runs -- at LEAST as far back as his appearances on Wheaties boxes. No story about Cardassian Fascism could be adequately told if you don't start there. Gosh I hope I'm not disappointed when I push Play.
I think people have confused fascism for authortisem and this is nothing new lest of all in trek I remember tom Paris from STvoy telling seven when the crew were trapped in a hologram verson of ww2. That the nazis were tge borg of their day. And that was always a werid arse pull.
You said that people shouldn't call everyone they disagree with fascist. I'm just curious what you would suggest people do? Actually come up with some sort of counter argument? Or if their ideas are not getting the desired results do a little self reflection? Maybe admit that despite all their good intentions their ideas are not working and try just talking to the big meanies who have different ideas to find a solution? That's just crazy talk.
Reminds me of when Mike and rich from Redlettermedia discussed the episode "first contact" because the president on that planet was so much better than modern politicians
@ KOR: Sentimentality, mercy. The emotions of peace. Your weakness, Captain Kirk. The Klingon Empire shall win. Think of it, as we sit here, in space above us the destiny of the galaxy will be decided for the next ten thousand years. Can I offer you a drink? We can toast the victory of the Klingon fleet. KOR: Today we conquer. If some day we are defeated, well, war has its fortunes good and bad. Do you know why we are so strong? Because we are a unit. Each of us is part of the greater whole, always under surveillance. Even a commander like myself, always under surveillance, Captain. If you will note. Yeah I’m not seeing it.
Interesting comment about fascism vis a vis religion. When leaders co opt a religion to declare themselves "Chosen" could that be a form of fascism, or is it just authoritarianism?
I may be wrong, but if i remember it correctly then the Cardassians were a rather religious and peaceful society first. However, their world was scarce with natural resources leading to a large collapse once they went into space and had basically nothing left on Cardassia Prime. This brought up an authoritarian government that sold out most of their cultural heritage to build up the military and take other worlds by force. This went not that great at first, leading to a short period of democracy, where at the end they fought a more succesful 2nd war, in wich there was a military coup that overthrew the democratic government and installed the regime we saw in TNG and DS9. This regime then went on to grab more worlds around them, like Bajor, in order to exploit them and bolster their homeworld and further build up the military. The fascism part come into play once the late Cardassians think of themselves to be superior then the other races, mainly those that they have conquered - like the Bajorans. The second part lies in their veneration of the state and/or the military as a whole, rather then a singe idividual.
I don't dislike the Cardassians because of their politics, I dislike them because they're just so bad in ruling. How can you have slavery and resource issues in a country with freaking replicators?!
The actual fascist Italy removed Mussolini and it wasn't even a coup. The very council created by the fascists, supported by the Emperor and parts of the army, did its job. I'm not advertising the ideology but ironically, it wasn't really totalitarian despite coining the very term. It started quite anti clerical but dropped that. They allowed the Vatican to be independent again. If you didn't oppose the regime, you generally didn't suffer. He was later used as figurehead for the nazi puppet state but that was completely nazi in ideology. The two countries also were not natural allies and had conflicts over Austria and Hitler armed the Abyssinian Empire (renamed Ethiopia after the terrible DERG took over) against Italy. It can also be said that fascist political philosophy was to a big degree post-hoc.
Its a good video, but one thing I note you place Fascism among a set of revolutionary ideologies where revolutionary national change is the political goal. You then note that some juntas embrace fascism as a way of keeping power so the money keeps flowing to them. So if we're already admitting that a desire for revolutionary nationalist change doesn't motivate all facsist regimes... isn't it possible that all fascist regimes are actually motivated by greed and they use ritualized violence to keep people reoccupied as they pursue corrupt self enrichment? Other than the motivation behind fascist regimes this is a good video. The motivations you describe are a little contradictory.
Just because an ideology has certain motivations for coming into existence (like the revolutionary character of Fascism) that doesn't mean someone else, unrelated to said ideology's conception, can't later come along and copy its playbook, without actually giving a damn about why said playbook was written in the first place. You could say it is the difference between a true believer in the ideology and an opportunist using the ideology for their own benefit.
@draochvar9646 once again begging the question, how do we know it was ever revolutionary to begin with. Take Mussolini, the first fascist to come to power. He was opportunist from the beginning.
Cardassians are fascist, what does that make Tzenkethi? From the books, the Tzenkethi are the ultimate Caste based society with workers bred and genetically engineered for specific jobs. Horrific.
0:33 "It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else. ... By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one-not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword." -George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune (24 March 1944)
I feel the need to reference the fact that Cardassians have an entire genre of storytelling known as "The Repetitive Epic" which seems to circle around the idea of Cardassians giving themselves over to the state to ensure it's survival. The Never Ending Sacrifice of course being the big story that Garak references in Deep Space Nine. It really says a lot about how ingrained the Cardassian brand of facism is by the time of Deep Space Nine.
There were also the Cardassian Mystery novels, where everyone is guilty of something and rather than the reader trying to figure out who is the guilty party, its more about figuring out who is guilty of what crime
@@weldonwin isn't that the plot of "Clue"
@@ronaldfinkelstein6335 More or less... frankly Garrack would have probably loved that movie
@@weldonwin Eh, he would've appreciated the, frankly, pedestrian nature of it. "But at least... they tried."
That was VERY well done. I get it. Thank you for your mindset 🖖
People today have forgotten that “authoritarian” is a word.
or the old classic "Tyrant!" its what we used back in the day.
Absolutely Based choice. I need more things that have “Sic semper tyrannis” on it and no Americans, the phrase doesn’t mean “shoot Lincoln” a man let’s just say proves the point of a similarly assassinated leader “history is written by the victors.” - Nope I’m not giving a name, TNG only’s will have to watch DS9.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Sic semper tyrannis!
Yeah, it can be depressing how little some people understand. To them, you have 'democracy' (Goodies) and 'fascists' (Baddies), lacking all nuance.
As an example, I ran into someone recently who claimed that the Romulans can't be democratic because they're authoritarian. They then went on to claim that unless every aspect of government is democratically represented, you aren't democratic. So both the ideology and the existence of the Continuing Committee and (presumably if we believe Q) Emperor excludes it. By definition, they at the same time claimed the Federation isn't a democracy because it contains constituent bodies which for example, are monarchies. Andoria and Hysperia being two examples.
Obviously, this is very stupid. Were such a definition to be applied to reality, then the UK wouldn't be a democracy. Nor indeed would Norway, which is currently ranked the most democratic nation on Earth (as of 2023) while being a constitutional monarchy.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 A tyrant is not necessarily authoritarian. At least some tyrants took power and then brought freedom to the people from an authoritarian state. Vladimir Lenin for example was absolutely a tyrant, but considering while he absolutely ruled with an iron fist, the people in general had more liberty and freedom then under the tsardom, and even if we remember the early soviet famines, average life expectancy under the soviet union never fell under the level of the late tsardom (except for a very brief period during ww2), thus saying he was authoritarian would not really be true, as he gave people more freedoms, more wealth and longer life then they had before.
Completely unrelated, but it needs a video. Q knew about the Dominion. He introduced Star Fleet to the Borg so they built war ships out of fear and realisation they were outgunned. With all those warships ready just in time for the Dominion War. A war they would have lost without the anti Borg fleet. .
I mean Q introduced the Enterprise-D to the Borg because of how alien they were to test the humans to see how they would react to such an uncompromisingly hostile and alien threat. There was no frame of reference for the Borg through which Picard could understand, unlike all of the species that mankind had encounter before who had very “human” conceptions of the universe.
If anything Q knew the Borg would attack humanity and wanted to prepare them directly for that and not the Dominion who, despite being run by goo people, have a very similar conception of the universe to the Federation.
It begs the question, why do the Q favor humans and the Federation?
Now THAT is an interesting take. I'm trying to find a devil's advocate position and it's not immediately apparent. I would love to see a deep dive into this theory.
@@Nom_AnorVSJedihe found it entertaining and fun? And didn’t want Picard and the rest of the Enterprise D to die in battle most likely
@@Nom_AnorVSJediPersonally I think that the Q are humans is why. They're just traveling back in time to make sure that humanity reaches the point where they ascend.
Quite the balance of somber and comical for this video. Combined with a third of the video basically being done to address the internet misconceptions. I'd also add that a major factor in the rise of the Cardassian Union was extreme scarcity of certain critical resources, which along with their various external wars created a vicious cycle of a negative feedback loop.
Another intriguing introspection into the political structure of a major Trek faction.
intresting how each of the axis powers suffered from their own material shortages. intresting parallel.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 One might add the principal of autarky in Fascist systems as the Realpolitik part of the justification of expansion, while the fear of the "Other" or external enemies and superiority of the race is the second part of the equation. One brings to mind the current North Korean regime which has diverged from communism into something different: A hereditary regime based on nationalism centered the belief that the North Koreans are the "cleanest people," and the need for Juche, or autarky.
I remember reading or hearign somewhere that the Cardassians literally looted their own museums for critical resources like dilithium and precious metals useful in technology the before their practical uses were discovered, were used for decorative purposes in their cultural treausres...which is SAD AF>
I just finished watching the ds9 two parter that introduced the Maquis. Where we learn a little about Cardassian politics and now immediately after viewing, I see this. Great timing. 👍🏻
glad to be of service
Everything within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state perfectly defines the Cardassian Union.
Holy mother of based! Someone who actually understands what Facsim is, and doesn't mix it up with, "When someone I don't like does an authoritarianism." Very well layed out and plainly conveyed. Hats off to you my good sir, and a good job on demystifying the evil of Fascism.
Read Mussolini's book on the matter??! -D
Love the closed captions at 0:07 "we're going to be going into Kardashian politics"
"That, and Lancasters" Hahahah. I wasn't expecting to laugh out loud considering the subject matter but here we are. A+++++++
Also, I quite like your summery. I firmly agree that names have meaning, specifics are important, and details matter. Again, really like your take on the politics and governments of Trek.
TBH I think referring to the Dominion as British-style Imperialist is missing the mark. I actually think they could absolutely fit the definition of a fascist state, but at best they're a theocratic racial-supremacist autocracy
The Dominion seems too hands-off in the direct every-day governance of its members to be truly fascist but it's getting close. I'd classify them as a theocratic, founder-supremacist feudal Empire.
The Dominion changes up tactics. By the end of the war sure they're Fascist buy when we first meet them. They're so hands off you can't really say that.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 as I say in my comment it depends who you are, the quickening shows what they do to societies that displease them. However as I said it really depends on where you are with them. The founders are atheistic isolationist xenophobes who really just created the empire to be left alone for instance.
They fit more the North Korean model of a fake communist state wrapping of an Absolute Monarchy. The difference here being the Dominion has no king but a collective of shapeshifters and that they are subtle enough to first try to subdue people without them really knowing what's happening.
In short it's a mix between North Korea and the European Union with bio engineered death machines as soldiers.
The thing is the British Empire literally created concentration camps so I think the point Venom is making is not that the Dominion is free from evil. So many countries are still scarred by the Empire. Rather that the Dominion does not fit the narrow view of fascism outlined in the video.
PLS DON'T TAKE VENOM-SENPAI'S MONEY TH-cam.
Ok now the serious. Its interesting how much the extreme ideologies have in common with another. A strong military caste, service to the state, extensive and detailed public education, the constant external enemy. Is it the USSR, the 3rd R-ike, or the Cardassian Union? And I love the comment too in how such states, regardless of their design, are doomed to failure. Very well done.
the main Difference between communist and Facist Ideologies is that communism has to have internationalist ambitions... the revolution must spread... (Eventually) while facism is content to sit quietly in a corner...(if its being smart)
@venomgeekmedia9886 big if's for both, but not wrong either
@venomgeekmedia9886 I'd argue that Facism often requires an "other" to hate to bring a source of unity to the nation, and this often drives it to inevitably expand.
@@birdmonster4586 One might add the principal of autarky in Fascist systems as the Realpolitik part of the justification of expansion, while the fear of the "Other" or external enemies and superiority of the race is the second part of the equation. One brings to mind the current North Korean regime which has diverged from communism into something different: A hereditary regime based on nationalism centered the belief that the North Koreans are the "cleanest people," and the need for Juche, or autarky.
@@birdmonster4586 true but that "other" can be pretty broad. if you look at Mussolinis italy the "other" seems to be communists, and various non italians. so it can vary
You spoke of their being no Nazis in the Trek universe. Remember Ekos? The TOS episode, ""Patterns of Force"?
Okay yeah other than the episode where they literally raid the costume department of the ww2 movie shooting next door.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 TOS did that a lot frankly. Piece of the Action, raid the Gangster movie costumes. Bread a Circuses, raid the Roman Epic movie costumes
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Or that time Archer & Co had to fight literal Nazis (with some alien assistance)
@@Sephiroth144 Or that time the Hirogen turned Voyager into one big WW2 Call of Duty game.
@@scockery Indeed; though the Enterprise episodes has the added flavor of being actual factual 1940's German Nazis (well, as actual factual as fiction gets ya) as opposed to inspired by or cosplaying or even hard light constructs thereof
Finally someone who doesn’t think every system that isn’t liberal democracy is “muh ww2 baddies” Also boomers are extremely annoying on this calling anything or one that dares questions their wisdom. Acting like they faught personally in a war they weren’t even born in. Alright rant over. (Also your Augments Storyline Video should of gotten more likes)
Also Dominion politics would be interesting. I’m strangely curious on a Dominion Constitution. I know the founders wouldn’t have created one because they live as biologically immortal pysche goo. But “The Founder Fathers.” Is just too good a meme.
Bet the Dominion is much harsher in the Gamma Quadrant considering how paranoid the Founders are. I know what we saw on the station wasn’t totalitarian but only because the Dominion needed good public image until the Alpha Quadrant was secured. Quark semi points this out to Kira and Odo during the occupation.
I wonder what does Gul Dukat think of Earth's history, in particular the three world wars? It's crazy how the Cardassians were at one point a very peaceful people until they became what they are as we all know of them since TNG and DS9. Also I like it that Cardassian early warp capable starship vaguely looks similar to the TOS era Federation starship.
I’m loving that a fellow Brit is calling the Dominion “The British Empire in Space”! 😂 I don’t totally agree with you, but it’s a brilliant line regardless.
The Dominion is a very specific kind of hegemonic autocracy. If fascism can be compared to autocracy - and clearly in many ways it can be - then there have been some very obvious narrative devices in Deep Space Nine which deliberately compared the Dominion to fascists. Weyoun’s suppression and censorship of Jake Sisko’s news reports from the occupied Terok Nor being a glaring example.
Does that mean the Dominion are fascists? No. Does it mean some writers on the show wanted to be exceptionally simplistic, or just lazy, in expressing what kind of threat to freedom and democracy in the Federation was posed by the Dominion? Yes, invariably so.
In the Dominion, the Founders have built an autocracy for the sake of power, and they wield their power for the sake of maintaining their autocracy. That’s really a simple way of putting it. And of course, the applicable narrative the female changeling reminds us of in so many of her appearances, is that the Founders maintain all of this to control solids, because they have a fear of solids being a threat to them which goes back many epochs. In this respect, they aren’t literal fascists. They’re simply an embodiment of how fear, and an acute superiority complex, can override every kind of desire for freedom. Everything that Odo learns about his people, gives him this wondrous sense that they’re “free”. But once he learns of their ambitions and agenda, he realises that they aren’t free at all - they’ve imprisoned themselves in their own grandeur, and need to control a universe that profoundly terrifies them.
They are Spartans, ruling over conquered helots. They’ve just outsourced the soldier role to the Jem’Hadar. If not for ketracel white, they’d have to be soldiers themselves.
@ That’s a pretty fair comparison. I just don’t think the Founders treat their vassals exactly as the British Empire did. And there’s definitely some theocratic elements to their political structures, given that the Vorta and Jem’Hadar view the founders as gods.
@@NineWorldsFromDrewIf adding theocracy, the Changelings/Founders view themselves as the Holy Roman/Catholic Church and use the Jem'Hadar as the Knights Templar or Crusaders during The Crusades of the Dark Ages/Medieval period. The fact the Vorta act like they're the go-betweens for the Founders and Jem'Hadar with the ketracel-white being the same/closest equivalent to the "sacrament" to prove their loyalty/fealty to their "divine" masters
Honestly one of my fave videos of yours.
Plainly stated and laid out, we can link it to real world examples. very apt in the modern era.
Thanks VGM, top stuff.
My favorite villains in Trek, were a ruthless military power, with a cunning intelligence agency always seeking to undermine enemies and watch the populace for disloyalty.
They were called Klingons. But in the 24th century, they have strange things on their skulls, and are called "Cardassians."
@@lynngreen7978 Of course it probably would have helped if in TNG established that a bunch of Cardassian ships together was a threat like the Klingons got to cover for the fact that one on one they get their asses kicked.
I agree, Fascisms is now Coke (any soda) or Kleenex (Facial Tissue). I am glad you take time to give us a real answer in the made up world of Star Trek.
Xeroxians are a Fascist alien race at war with the Klee'Nex over who makes the better Coke.
I mean the roots of it run deep and wide. The Angry Austrian painter was inspired by Jim Crow laws that are the basis of modern anti-vagrancy laws.
@@scockery very nice
So the Cardassians look up at the space Romans and they want to be as strong as powerful as them but only end up being a groteque, monstrous and weaker parody of them...
*They really are the space Italians*
Except Cardassia had a much better intelligence service til they made a joint venture with the Romulans that went very sideways. There's no Italian equivalent to Garak.
An actual intelligent description of what Fascism actually is and you hit the nail on the head saying it's a word that's overused in today's general discourse.
Knowing the history around Star Trek most fans would recognise the Carddasians as fascist villains I doubt many would argue against that point.
I think it's pretty appropriate in a lot of cases today, mind you. Part of the problem is in fact that people just think it's a name to call people rather than a serious warning.
@@OllamhDrabMost people don't know the Angry Austrian Painter took inspiration from US policy towards Native Americans and Jim Crow laws. Our society has more in common with fascism than we want to admit. And some want to prevent acknowledgement of that.
I just want to say that you missed an opportunity to play a bunch of WW2 German stock footage and playing some dramatic royalty free music over it.
Actually, with your accent I kind of hope you'll someday consider parodying Mark Felton, just talking about some of the fictional lore of Star Trek instead of weird WW2 anecdotes. I think it'd be fun.
EDIT:
Oooh, maybe talk about the Na'kuhl Time Travel Nazi collaboration, or the Ekosian Nazis. To keep on theme.
Didn't Dukat tell Sisko that the military had been in charge for 5 centuries in the episode "Defiant?" So, not a recent development. And honestly that timeline meshes better with the timeline needed to develop a culture like we see.
i'll double check but thats an odd Retcon which makes out the military to be more competent than it deserves if it stays in power that long. bear in mind people have short memories and things can change fast. more has happened in the last 4 years than arguably the last 10
According to Memory Alpha (drawing from my own memory), the military took power in 1861, the same year as Abraham Lincoln.
The military has run things for 500 years with the Dutapa Council as the fig leaf of representation.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 The military only needs to be marginally competent because they have the guns. But also, to be honest, for a smaller power the Cardassians haven't done that poorly. Even as the smallest "Great Power" their space is pretty large by Alpha Quadrant standards with many systems. As many populated systems as the Romulan Empire which is more than twice as large in sheer size.
A lot of people mistake authoritarian conservatism with fascism to be honest.
I feel most authoritarian conservatives would become fascists if they were allowed.
Coming from 40k I can tell you:
People even confuse feudalism with fascism ...
A lot of authoritarian conservatives seem like they would like to be fasc if they could
@@draochvar9646Well 40k IS both, a Lot and to a degree. And a Lot Else, AS you could expect from a Galaxy spanimg Empire in which travel time can Take years to centuries of Realtime.
A lot of conservative parties in the world which were once centre-right are now far right like the Republicans. Once they loved NATO and international organizations like the UN now they are strictly isolationists. They are also anti-immigrant and use them as a scapegoat for everything that is wrong with the world. Sounds familiar. Democrats are now in the same area of the political compass where the Republicans once were.
I appreciate your common sense take on facsism. Rare to see online these days.
I don't mean to demean but where do you see Fascism falsely depicted?
@@Broockle At least in American politics gets thrown around often, and other than a few examples of sub groups within the major groups people throw it around to describe what republicans and democrats are doing and/or will do during their elected terms. It's a mess that people use to trigger emotions. discriminating against transgenders and banning books? Fascists! Demanding we can't leave our homes and telling us what we can say to other people? Fascists! Both have explanations as to why pople believe those things and from the other side they see it as opression and the first boogy man they summon is "fascism" and the nationalist german sasuage party......
@@Broockle 4chan/pol ;)
Very fairly done, great video on our favourite space italy (including the low performance of their military).
My man, you spent the first 10 minutes giving the very best description of fascism I've ever encountered on the internet. Thank you for taking the time to get it right. No one else does, and I mean that. The best part is that you did it all in the name of accurately describing Star Trek lore.
I vaguely recall that before the military takeover of Cardassian society, they had a profoundly inept and decadent government. I remember this coming from the TNG episode where Picard is being tortured into saying he sees five lights when there is only four.
Great video! I love the lore deep dives which aren't just shooty shooty bang-bang, and the humour definitely appeals as a fellow Brit. I always feel a bit sorry for the Carassians, the comparison with Italy definitely fits, minus living in the shadow of a mighty precursor civilisation.
The cardassians are my favorite aliens from Star Trek. And great video.
While I agree with your overall thesis here, I would really have liked you to go through the criteria in Umberto Eco's Ur-Fascism to show how Cardassians actually are, in an academic sense, fascist.
The Austrian and spanish facists liked the idea of the church having a lot of power i mean they are probaly good pals with clerical facists so not all facists are anti religion
Russia likes the Russian Orthodox Patriarch, who said if someone dies in the Special Military Operation in Ukraine, he will go to Heaven.
This makes the governmental structure of the Cardassian Union vs. United Federation of Planets vs. Romulan Star Empire somewhat easier to understand, especially with the discussion of how "fascism" is currently being overused as a catch-all for anything "evil." I think one of the best aspects to describe the CU was from "Chain of Command" and makes the militaristic society somewhat more like an authoritarian nationalist autocracy as Picard tells Gul Madred after his daughter leaves the room; "If a child can devalue the other, they can devalue anyone...even their parents."
The fact that Garak is only shown to care about his mother and Tam Elbrum (likely because they're his parents) and states during "The Way of the Warrior" that despite disliking Gul Dukat was willing to stand beside him in the sake of their shared desire to protect Cardassia. Whether this was a sign of loyalty to "party" or his homeworld also shows his willingness to preserve what he holds dear, especially since he and Legate Damar were willing to give their lives to free Cardassia from Dominion control
Garak is basically the good version of a fascist.
He would do absolutely anything for Cardassia but he isn't a warmonger or a racist.
@19:00 plenty of fascist regimes have used religion as a means to their ends (irl). Not for Cardassia obviously.
@@colonyofrochellaprimeExcept Franco's regime wasn't exclusively Fascist.
It was a coalition that included Fascists, but also faithful Catholics, Monarchists, Carlists, capitalists, etc.
The defence and promotion of Catholicism wasn't merely to placate the masses, it was a central pillar that held Franco's coalition together, it was using him as much as he was using it.
It's also worth pointing out that the Spanish have always been rabidly catholic its what prompted them to rise up against the french in the napoleonic wars.
@@colonyofrochellaprimethe Catholic Church in Spain took and sold 300,000 children of francos political enemies, they did similar things for Pinochet in Chile..
@@the_Kutonarch Yes, this was even reflected in the new uniforms of the Falange which included the Falangist blue shirt, military belts, and the red Carlist beret.
some pink skins started calling them "spoon heads" and bad stuff happened.
I’m not sure your categorization of fascism is so separate from conservatism, and it has to do with devotion to hierarchy.
Innuendo Studios made more than a couple videos deconstructing the ideologies of fascism and conservatism and Kraut made a video on Realism with a section talking about “the destruction of modernity” both invoked and enacted by fascist movements at the time.
Basically, fascism is the ideology that defines anything by its utility to the state- defines persons, families, communities, demographics, industries, and military by their service to the state.
And the fascist state in question is never egalitarian, but hierarchical according to “traditional values”, especially when those values are morally irrelevant- “race”, national-birthplace, gender, sexual orientation, religion, “handicap” etc…
Calling fascism a “revolutionary” ideology only makes sense if it’s a revolution _against_ modernity and any enlightened ideas of personhood as a moral end in itself, and _for_ the hierarchy of conservatism.
it is precisely that devotion to the state that means its a product of modernity. remember after WW1 there are a lot of new Nation States that went through their first major war which discredited the old aristocracy. Fascism is a response to that
Your definition makes the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics fascist. The country that had internal passports that restricted where people could live based on their race/national origin, a hierarchy based on religious membership (discrimination against members of traditional/non-Marxist religions), socialist masculinity to counter the homosexual fascist menace and hierarchy based upon proletarian credentials and membership in the party.
@@samuelskinner7704I mean, many non-authoritarian leftists would argue the USSR was actually fascist than socialist or communist. The USSR and WWII Germany were pretty hostile to worker ownership or representation. They also hated individual liberty and had similar views of homosexuality.
@@richardarriaga6271
Non-authoritarian leftists were claiming Marxism would lead to totalitarianism while Marx was alive. This leads to 'fascism is socialism in practice' due to the lack of true socialism regimes.
This isn't entirely wrong, but it falls to capture what people are complaining about when they talk about fascism or socialism.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I think this is missing the point of fascism and its view of a 'state'. As Kraut explains, Carl Schmitt or 'the Nazi lawyer who abolished law' codified the fascist state as one that *_rejects_* institutions of liberal democracy, popular sovereignty, and rule of law and accountability- the 'State of Emergency' as a _permanent_ stance.
To paraphrase, to a fascist of any stripe, law is whatever serves the race/state, therefore lawlessness is the fundamental base; might makes right, and the will to exercise power through violence is all that matters. No one can ever have a legal defense for any wrong done to them because it would undermine the power of that fascist 'state', and there must always be an enemy that threatens to undermine that state because if there's no threat, there's no need for the permanent 'state of emergency'. This is where a never-ending stream of victims must serve as 'enemies' and be accused and sentenced for the good of the race/state.
If you remember the portrayal of Cardassian criminal trials, I think that's the most fundamental form of a fascist state. Even when O'Brian is saved, it's only because a scheme to uphold fascist power had to be exposed so that acquitting O'Brian would be the only course to preserve that power.
Very interesting video and I would love to see a follow up done in regard to the timescale of the Bajoran occupation, when it began and how it changed because of changed in Cardassian government. Likewise it would be good to see a similar clarification of the Bajoran occupation and comparison to European colonial history. If that's not too dark!
European colonies were mostly positive for the colonized peoples.
Except for the Belgian Congo.
@florianschneider3982 this is why I think a video would be very interesting. Many of the European countries both at the time and now think their control was benevolent and beneficial. Those colonised countries have a different opinion. The Belgian Congo being one of the worst examples and would I'm sure make for a good comparison with Bajor.
The other thing to bear in mind is that neither the real life or fictional occupations/colonial projects were static. They may have begun as footholds into territories based on trade then expanded into getting as much out of the natural resources of the controlled territories and eventually becoming more brutal when uprisings against foreign rule began as the empires began to fold up. The British in Kenya, the French in East Asia etc.
I've seen the Cardassians called "space nazis" before but that to me is lazy because it downplays how genocidal the real nazis were and how Cardassia bears closer resemblance to other imperial powers who history has been kinder to.
@@florianschneider3982 how brain dead must you be to say that really it was soooo great for all Africans under all European occupations to be ruled by apartheid it must be so good to have your own natural resources stolen from under your feet and get diddy squat but famine and genocide in return.
Hey venom, your friend over at Retro-Badger-Gaming channel episode Enterprise Refit VS Enterprise A NCC 1701 - Both Ways Star Trek Starship Battles gave you a shout out!
i watch his stuff from time to time i'll give it a look :)
Lore Reloaded isn't the best bench mark for politics nor should have his opinions taken seriously.
Does he still have that obsession with federation starships having Gelato machines?
I haven't watched him in a while and don't terribly want to...
@@SymbioteMullet I haven't watched him in years, but he was always obnoxious and his theories always seemed either 2 dimensional and bias to his own political views.
I now just exclusively talk about Gelato machines
@@LoreReloaded have you got any recommendations for zeppelin-compatible gelato devices?
@@SymbioteMullet I'm more an Airplay kind of guy.. The politics thing aside because that's just going to cause a fight given I'm never what anyone thinks ;P The Gelato thing came from my subscribers and inside jokes that kept popping up in the comments. I've honestly only ever eaten gelato like.. 3 times.. :P I do claim that Gelato became a recurring theme on discovery because of me.. Though being associate with discovery isn't the greatest boast ever either ;P I'd rather be considered toxic politically.
This is excellent. Well-done!
For the most part Cardassia seems to be all about 'the state' without any sort of glorious leader or focal point, which is common with most real world fascist or statist dictatorships; Germany, Italy, North Korea etc. I suppose the Soviet approach was, intended, somewhat, to be about the state rather than a glorious leader, but still ended up with Stalin, so... There's probably a fair bit of Stalinism mixed in with the Cardassian state, really!
Once Gul 'loves a statue' Dukat takes over, at that point things would line up much more closely with real world fascism, or even nazism.
You could certainly argue Cardassia's development in DS9 somewhat mirrors Germany prior to WW2; Militarist Empire > Weak civilian government > fascist takeover led by ex officer.
In the wake of Stalin and Kruschev's efforts to dismantle his personality cult, Communism's godhead transitioned to the state rather than a man. So in a sense you hit the nail on the head.
See in regards to the Soviet Union it is interesting, originally it was the PARTY who had control but then during the civil war as the party became divided Lenin banned factionalism (aka any opinion that wasnt his) at least for as long as the civil war was going on. Initially only used to push away people like Alexandria Kollontai who was increasingly critical of Lenin and put her in the position of "Ambassador to Norway" where she could do nothing, this eventually became the justification for the purges and political repression. However, Lenin died before the ban was revoked and the ban remained until the end of the Soviet Union.
Stalin was not actually the official leader of the USSR, as he was not the premier, he was the general secretary (at the start of his rule, after WW2 came to Russia he became Premier until his death). However, due to the General Secretary being the one who chose who did and didnt get into the party, he had a lot of power. Anyone he let into the party now owed him for their position, any of the others who were vying for control after Lenin's death like Zinoviev, Kamenev, Bukharin, Trotsky etc were all undermined by him as the party was now filled with yes men for stalin, so one by one they faced persecution as he took total control. This changed when Krushchev came to power and he issued Destalinisation which returned things to the party having control like under Lenin. Ironically Krushchev was one of the Yesmen Stalin put into power. Of course, regardless of whether it was the Party, General Secretary, or Premier in control, the USSR was still an inherently authoritarian state, but compared to other authoritarian states it is so much more fascinating imo.
To actually bring this back to Star trek and the Cardassians, they definitely had influence from the Soviet Union. The obsidian order seems more like the KGB than it does the SS, SA or the Gestapo and the show trials they conduct (seen primarily in the DS9 episode 'Tribunal') are straight out of Stalin's great purges.
Satire and Lancasters, now there's a name for a military themed comedy club.
Oh, Bore Reloaded said a thing? Thanks for inflicting that person's existence upon my notice, I was doing so well ignoring it.
At the risk of being a pedantic egg, I think the Cardassian Union never quite forgot that it existed to serve the people.
When Cardassian soldiers turned their guns on the Jem’Hadar en masse, they named the city the Dominion had destroyed. When they switched targets during the battle in space, they often placed themselves in positions to support and defend alliance ships.
The soldier fought and died, according to their mythos, for the people of Cardassia.
I think that love of Cardassia was hijacked for their fall to fascism, but in the throes of betrayal at the hands of the Dominion? It went straight back to where it was supposed to be.
Not ‘for the Union’, but ‘For Cardassia’.
A very well and thought out video : )
5:57: I think that mockery against such people is the most powerful weapon: well that and Lancasters. Do we count that as a Venomism like Drachinifel has his Drachisms because it sure sounded like one?
I never thought of them as fascist, but the Mussolini style makes sense. Not sure if I really agree on the Dominion, though, but we can wait for that episode.
Well done video your articulation of the subject matter was very lucid.
it is sad today the discourse is always "bad people are the worst people that ever existed" it really makes story telling harder, it makes conversation and debate harder.. and it doesn't make it easier for anyone but the bad guys! lol
If i recall, the writers had to destroy gul dukat, cause the viewers didnt see him as a villian, which worried the writers
Well see as the top writer as a dyed blue beard it's not hard to see
@@tim4330He was always bad. He ran a slave mine and then always made excuses for it.
@@tim4330lol
@@tim4330 God forbid someone wants to portray the genocidal fascist as a bad person. Grow up, and stop letting the colour of peoples hair get your panties in a twist.
@@MrRattlebones640One of several things that degraded the final season from what it could have been. Writer's got their panties in a wad.
I think you should have mentioned the cases where Fascists coopted religions to serve the state.
Francisco Franco is an obvious example.
Isis is another
This is a brilliant video 😀
It's also funny how different societies view fascism. Here in Germany, the origin country for that movie-villain (stereo)type, we have a far more strict and narrow definition than Italy, where the term itself originates. Then there is the American understanding which is again different, and the Russian one is different to either of them, and so on.
Yeah and from what I can tell its a far less sensitive topic in Italy or Spain than in Germany. Though it probably depends who you talk to...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 This I've no clue about abroad, but here in Germany, it used to be a very heavy thing to be hurled around, but it also eroded a fair bit in latest years with the right of certain parties. Now, you're bound to be a fascist to someone. Far-right fascist or far-left fascist (yes, there are people who really think those who are against fascism are fassists themselves), fascists elites or fascist plebs, etc...
How would you classify the Vidiians? Organ farming space-pirates?
"all such states will eventually fail"
That's a statement of faith right there
hardly, they seem to fail pretty consistently
All states eventually fail, period. 😊
So all such states in the variations we have experienced will fail. That isn't to say that a perpetual fascism might exsist one day, but that fascism will be one where you don't understand you in it. Im not saying there are modern governments that do this, we are fortunately still in a world were debate is common and even when an opposing side has power people arn't silenced..... even if you hear them yell all the time they are being silenced.
the reason fascism is so overused is because of poor understanding of what it means, it's became a swap in for the term autocracy or any other form of authoritarian government. Mostly due to a very surface level of education in the united states on world war two. as the primary idealogical warfare was marxist communism vs Italian Fascism(and the offshoots it created such as the NSDAP).
Infact people misuse it by referring to it as a far right idealogy, when it's more of a centrist form of authoritarianism as it's origins were a perversion of socialism which was rejected by the far left in italy and in germany. So they took it as a third way, and tried to reclaim the word socialism, by turning it in to a bastardized form of nationalism. (the word itself)
It is mostly germany though that created this misunderstanding because of AH's actions as furher of Germany after winning the election. His night of long knives in which he had the leftist elements of the party purged and took a sharp turn to the right.
It has left an outsized imprint on our society not quite understanding what the word is and what it means. That's why it's overused IMO.
It is amazing how people don't recognize that Fasism and Communism are different versions of the same type of government. The end goals are the same.
Communist Karl Marxism used by the Soviet Union has its goal as socialism. Everything is based on that concept. Now look at the fasists whose goal is exactly the same thing. Nazis also known as "The National Socialist German Workers' Party", goals were the same exact thing as their communist enemies.
Both had secret police crushing the public, both ruling philosphies were basically the same. Economic approach was a bit different where communists had total control of all companies, fasists allowed crony capitalism to exist as long as it did exactly what they wanted.
In my opinion both are leftist ideals of government, where the collective national identity rules with an iron fist. Individual rights are not acceptable or allowed.
I can definitely see that, especially as people seem to forget that "Nazi" is merely a short form of "National Socialist" and "Nazism" refers to "National Socialism" and anyone who merely dislikes someone (like Trump) will throw out the term or use it for something where there's a strict adherence to a subject; "grammar Nazi," without thinking. It's likely that American politics is so binary that people get pigeonholed for their beliefs (Conservative or Liberal, Democrat or Republican) and aside from the self-redundancy of anti-facist (opposing something by acting in opposition to the thing) no one really wants to dig beneath the "top level" of the meaning
I think the reason "Fascism" is thrown around alot is because its the be all and end all Authoritarian ideology. Other authoritarian ideologies dont require complete dedication to the state and only the people to play ball, Fascism does because the crux of its ideology lies at the feet of the state. Yes Fascism is a centrist ideology, as whilst they often have a private capitalist economy they also uphold a collective identity based around Nationality/Race (Which according to Fascism are upheld by the state and vice versa) rather than Class like that of Marxist/Anarchist Socialism.
Excellent video!
kudos for the dominion british empire comparsion -- i always wondered what would fit best but never could get a grasp on it... soviet union would work in a more abstract sense as there always was the core russian ruling class (founders), the broader minions of them in the republics (vorta), the masses of available soldiers if needed (jem hadar). but yeah, i feel like british empire fits in well there.
Quick note - aristocratic rule and fascism are perfectly compatible. Fascist Italy was a good example of this. The king remained as head of state throughout the 20 year rule of his appointed fascist govt. It was do much so a royal fascist dictatorship that upon its fall, Italy ended monarchy to rid itself of the fascists.
@@Margin4error I think it's fairer to say fascism overtook monarchy there
@venomgeekmedia9886 I can't begin to imagine what reading of history leads you to think that. Vitor Emmanuel installed fascism, backed it, and reigned throughout it.
@venomgeekmedia9886 Looking at other the Startrek species, why not label the Romulans fasist themselves?
The romulans have a repressive secret police who tortures and kills civilians. Don't go by the roman empire label given by the writers since we know that technically the Roman republic ended when the Roman Republic transitioned to the Roman Empire and the senate's power transferred to the Roman Emperor.
Maybe we can say that the Romulan Empire is a mixture of Royal and fasist government?
@venomgeekmedia9886 Looking at other the Startrek species, why not label the Romulans fasist themselves?
The romulans have a repressive secret police who tortures and kills civilians. Don't go by the roman empire label given by the writers since we know that technically the Roman republic ended when the Roman Republic transitioned to the Roman Empire and the senate's power transferred to the Roman Emperor.
Maybe we can say that the Romulan Empire is a mixture of Royal and fasist government?
Explain?
I will now forever see the Dominion War as the US and British Empire slapping eachother around. Thanks for that lol
I have describe the major races this way.
Klingons were clearly Commmunist in TOS with kor as a party elite. by TNG it turned into more imperial japan.
Romulans. ROME, enough said.
Cardassian were facsist but do agree more itlaiin fascist then nazi with a bad of soviet union.
Borg. the new Communist.
Dominion I have said a style of imerpial;ism but the dark side ofthe old British empire would agree with.
I used to wonder why Cardassians and Romulans were not at each other’s throats. Neither is the type to want a power they don’t control in power or gaining power. And I was kinda hoping to see that fight play out.
They were usually friendly powers. The reason being they are no where near one another. The Federation sits in-between them. Without a mutual border, or parallel interests in territories they have little reason to be rivals. On the contrary, it makes them natural allies which they have been before in lore. The Obsidian Order/Tal Shiar attack was but the most recent example of cooperation.
Shit they teamed up again for the Battle of Cardassia.
I was dreading this episode after seeing how much you love the blatantly evil Romulan system of government but aside from the fact that the nazis were never actually socialists I basically agree with what you've said,
People who throw around the term fascist i can tell never read page one of "The Doctrine of Fascism" by Benito Mussolini.
But because i actually wanted to truly know what Fascism is, i went to the actual source. And talk about a walk through the mind of a madman.
Do you think there was a point where it could have been saved? With interference from Section 31 or Federation micro management? Would it have been possible for Cardassia to shift to a republic or some form of managed democracy?
Whilst i don't like misuse of definitions the problem is a bunch of people are fine with authoritarians or other clearly inappropriate leaders. Explained it to people and where it leads to and theyre like "so what, theyre doing what i want". Also, if people waving the red white and black thingy think the authoritarian is ok do i really need to worry about which political dedinition we're using or should i be more worried about the inevitable journey and destination which is pretty much the same
I personally always thought the Cardassians felt more of Antonescu's Romanian-style Fascism than Mussolini's Italian-style Fascism.
Most people use "fascism" when they mean either totalitarianism or authoritarianism. I've always gone by Umberto Eco's "14 points of fascism" essay. It's definitely worth a read.
fascism is just treated as an umbrella term. you could delve into more specific kinds of it, but its all authoritarian.
But how many lights do they have in their houses?
The Cardiasimns do have an amazing uniform. Only second to the Kilingons.
I like the definition of the Dominion modeled after the British Empire
5:30 get it, got it, come on man I need to get to work here in a minute
Fancy seeing you here...
I allways prefer the description of the tzenketi given in the typhoon pact books over that of sto.
If they demonetize you, you could reedit the video and call fascism "bunch of sticks-ism" seeing as the word fascis or fasces is where it comes from.
What's the Italian for a bundle of dry Spaghetti?
@@venomgeekmedia9886 Oberthi-phaseretti..........obviously
Not wanting to call everything I don't like fascists is peak fascism.
One common simile that is used to illustrate the defense between liberal/democratic state and the fascist one is a Night Watchmen.
The liberal ones being a night watchman, keeping peace putting down occasional disputes but otherwise leaving a people alone. But to quote PotatoMan himself "The Fascist State is
wide awake and has a will of its own. For this reason it can be described as “ethical".
Always be wary of anyone who wants to rule over you out of the kindness of his heart.
Fascism has a very specific definition and it is actually quite popular in the world today, particularly the United States and Europe. It is slightly overused in that the fascists also call the Liberals fascists, and not enough people are aware of the fascism that they either support or tolerate, so presumably if they ever use the word it is in a flawed way, but on the whole, the idea that the word is overused is itself a narrative masking the abundance of fascism.
A lot of people think facism is loud marching songs and uniforms - that is part of it, but not all of it. As Mussolini himself said it's a merger between corporate and state and should be called Corporatism. I think that this has been forgotten, subsumed and degraded and we're heading in that direction now in many of the Western democracies and part of the problem, is, as you rightly say by people screaming "fascist" at anything they don't like. The word, the meaning and the reality have been dulled and thus ignored.
If you drill down, you're able to see that corporations hold a lot of power. They pay very little tax, they can coopt governments (if you make us pay tax, we'll pull XYZ costing thousands of jobs, etc), they can flout rules (punishment by fine = legal for a price) and ministers often consult with CEO's across the globe.
Anyway, enough of reality - great video, great insight and as always, a pleasure to watch! Please keep up the good work Venom o7
So I agree with most points and disagree with a few. Firstly I do believe a revolutionary Ideal can have a conservative backing. Nationalism is a very important part of fascism, its one of the things that helps separate between many past governmental forms and modern Ideas. To believe in the state you need to have an strong Idea of what that state is, and generally considering your culture or people as superior to another is a also a discriminatory Idea. It's one of the reasons I say I'm a proud American, but I am by no means a nationalist. The nationalist feelings are often defined by what we feel our nation SHOULD be, not by what it currently is, and that is the bread and butter of a fascist regime. That's where the conservatism lies in the revolution, although often as a tool as new power symbols are created to supplant the old, it is still a vehicle of change. Those conservative values are as quickly discarded if needed at the first possible signs of no longer aiding the continued power of the state. In addition, I think you downplay the use of religion in these movements. They also use religion, in some cases old romanticized versions of the religion, in some cases deals with powerful religious movements to solidify their rule. Almost all nationalist fascisms that have arisen cite following the "classic religion" or have used former religious imagery and thought to stir up the people. Spanish fascism used classic Christianity to justify their side in the civil war to fight the other revolutionists.... basically with just modern Spain burning in the process. Germany used this with both calling to classic religions, or at least Wagnarian versions of those religious tales, and making a deal with the catholic church to help grow the state. None of the religious ideas would survive clashing with the state but would be used as needed.
In the end you only really forgot extremist nationalism, something oft forgotten about today as everyone in the world seems to either be nationalist or antinationalist, not just people living under a government.
Other than that, spot on, good stuff as always.
Thanks. Interesting point on Religion obviously I said for the cardassians religion is not part of the Facsist vision. You refer to Spain which I think is the exception because Franco probably wasn't a Fascist till he won the war. But if you look at Italy its very much secular, and with regards to the National socialists does making up a obscure neo-pagan religion count especially because even people in the party thought it was weird.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I agree with you, and while the Cardassian people were said to be a spiritual and artistic people once if any religion was around it was probably pushed aside as anti-state, or at least not Pro state. Fascist examples we have in history almost all have nuance to them. In the end I think it can be summed up by a network of state supporting industries that help keep the populace stuck in their nationalist fervor. If religion can be used it will, in the case of the Italians there was kind of just an assumption that they would be catholic, it was the religion of the late roman period after all(at least they see it as that continuation after the schism) and Italy was to be the new Rome, so as long as the religion didn't step out of line they would just be accepted. That's all a part of the network and seductive nature of nationalism especially in the extreme.
Your example does define the Cardassians very well, and is used well. It was intended to be a fascist state and it is a good example of one where they make great baddies in a TV show but we can also have heart wrenching characters against the norm..... or those like Damar and his nationalism about what Cardassia is changing by the time of his uprising.
@@venomgeekmedia9886 I must reiterate @CinnamonKnightEntertainment's reference to nationalism. It isn't simply loyalty to the State, but to an idealized concept of the People/Nation, however that's defined. But fascists insist that the People is under threat from within. The Nation is contaminated with "those people," minorities that are both pathetically inferior to the People and a terrible threat to it. It's true that, depending on how the People is defined, minorities do not need to be racial. For example, religious nationalists say that only their own faithful are real (Nation)-ans In the case of Cardassia though, I doubt the Bajorans would ever be accepted as part of the same Nation. At best there might be "good ones" that know their place, but nationalism _needs_ internal threats to maintain it's legitimacy. Rebellious colonized "terrorists" make a perfect internal threat, whether Bajoran or Maquis.
Okay, then I have a question, does Star Wars' Galactic Empire in its successor count as a fascist states?
if we're using the classical definiton then yes, very yes.
in expanded material they try to make them resemble the german model but that kinda falls down because executing mass Genocide while also ruling a galaxy doesn't really work.
(theres a reason they waited till the war started before implementing their plans.)
Fairy swordfish are also rather effective on floating fascists
apart from 'Giulio Cesare's' literal plot armour...
@@venomgeekmedia9886 put her against Warspite
A plot armour duel for the ages
10:35 "Who invited the guy from the marching band?"
next the feudal warrior clans called the Klingon empire and the citizen republic called the the federation
What do you make of Spanish fascism ?
Based on the title, I hope this video goes all the way back to Bruce Jenner's Olympic runs -- at LEAST as far back as his appearances on Wheaties boxes. No story about Cardassian Fascism could be adequately told if you don't start there. Gosh I hope I'm not disappointed when I push Play.
I think people have confused fascism for authortisem and this is nothing new lest of all in trek
I remember tom Paris from STvoy telling seven when the crew were trapped in a hologram verson of ww2. That the nazis were tge borg of their day.
And that was always a werid arse pull.
You said that people shouldn't call everyone they disagree with fascist. I'm just curious what you would suggest people do? Actually come up with some sort of counter argument? Or if their ideas are not getting the desired results do a little self reflection? Maybe admit that despite all their good intentions their ideas are not working and try just talking to the big meanies who have different ideas to find a solution? That's just crazy talk.
American politics 101
Reminds me of when Mike and rich from Redlettermedia discussed the episode "first contact" because the president on that planet was so much better than modern politicians
To be fair the TOS Klingons did kind of came off more Fascist than Communist. I mean they are more like the Cardassian than the TNG Klingons.
idk thery're pretty interchangable honestly. Kor was very clearly aristocratic though, and they have women on their ships just like starfleet.
no TOS klingon were clear Communist but evlvoed into more imeprial japan by TNG
@ KOR: Sentimentality, mercy. The emotions of peace. Your weakness, Captain Kirk. The Klingon Empire shall win. Think of it, as we sit here, in space above us the destiny of the galaxy will be decided for the next ten thousand years. Can I offer you a drink? We can toast the victory of the Klingon fleet.
KOR: Today we conquer. If some day we are defeated, well, war has its fortunes good and bad. Do you know why we are so strong? Because we are a unit. Each of us is part of the greater whole, always under surveillance. Even a commander like myself, always under surveillance, Captain. If you will note.
Yeah I’m not seeing it.
Interesting comment about fascism vis a vis religion. When leaders co opt a religion to declare themselves "Chosen" could that be a form of fascism, or is it just authoritarianism?
I may be wrong, but if i remember it correctly then the Cardassians were a rather religious and peaceful society first. However, their world was scarce with natural resources leading to a large collapse once they went into space and had basically nothing left on Cardassia Prime. This brought up an authoritarian government that sold out most of their cultural heritage to build up the military and take other worlds by force. This went not that great at first, leading to a short period of democracy, where at the end they fought a more succesful 2nd war, in wich there was a military coup that overthrew the democratic government and installed the regime we saw in TNG and DS9. This regime then went on to grab more worlds around them, like Bajor, in order to exploit them and bolster their homeworld and further build up the military. The fascism part come into play once the late Cardassians think of themselves to be superior then the other races, mainly those that they have conquered - like the Bajorans. The second part lies in their veneration of the state and/or the military as a whole, rather then a singe idividual.
I don't dislike the Cardassians because of their politics, I dislike them because they're just so bad in ruling. How can you have slavery and resource issues in a country with freaking replicators?!
Great video and I love the comprehensive analysis. Fascism is incredibly relevant at the moment
The actual fascist Italy removed Mussolini and it wasn't even a coup. The very council created by the fascists, supported by the Emperor and parts of the army, did its job. I'm not advertising the ideology but ironically, it wasn't really totalitarian despite coining the very term. It started quite anti clerical but dropped that. They allowed the Vatican to be independent again. If you didn't oppose the regime, you generally didn't suffer.
He was later used as figurehead for the nazi puppet state but that was completely nazi in ideology.
The two countries also were not natural allies and had conflicts over Austria and Hitler armed the Abyssinian Empire (renamed Ethiopia after the terrible DERG took over) against Italy.
It can also be said that fascist political philosophy was to a big degree post-hoc.
“McDonald’s raised prices on the big man!?! FASCISTS!!!”
Its a good video, but one thing I note you place Fascism among a set of revolutionary ideologies where revolutionary national change is the political goal. You then note that some juntas embrace fascism as a way of keeping power so the money keeps flowing to them. So if we're already admitting that a desire for revolutionary nationalist change doesn't motivate all facsist regimes... isn't it possible that all fascist regimes are actually motivated by greed and they use ritualized violence to keep people reoccupied as they pursue corrupt self enrichment?
Other than the motivation behind fascist regimes this is a good video. The motivations you describe are a little contradictory.
Just because an ideology has certain motivations for coming into existence (like the revolutionary character of Fascism) that doesn't mean someone else, unrelated to said ideology's conception, can't later come along and copy its playbook, without actually giving a damn about why said playbook was written in the first place. You could say it is the difference between a true believer in the ideology and an opportunist using the ideology for their own benefit.
@draochvar9646 once again begging the question, how do we know it was ever revolutionary to begin with. Take Mussolini, the first fascist to come to power. He was opportunist from the beginning.
Je suis le Central Command! Le Central Command, c'est moi!
The real obsidian order was the friends we made along the way.
4 minute ad on this video is too long
Blame youtube. Was that not skippable?
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Cardassians are fascist, what does that make Tzenkethi? From the books, the Tzenkethi are the ultimate Caste based society with workers bred and genetically engineered for specific jobs. Horrific.
A bioengineering Fuedal Caste system. Certainly evil but distinct from fascism.
what are your takes on politics venom? have you chosen a side? are you in the middle?
0:33
"It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.
...
By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come. But Fascism is also a political and economic system. Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it? Alas! we shall not get one-not yet, anyway. To say why would take too long, but basically it is because it is impossible to define Fascism satisfactorily without making admissions which neither the Fascists themselves, nor the Conservatives, nor Socialists of any colour, are willing to make. All one can do for the moment is to use the word with a certain amount of circumspection and not, as is usually done, degrade it to the level of a swearword."
-George Orwell, "As I Please", Tribune (24 March 1944)
6:00 Mosquitoes too! Don’t forget the Wooden Wonder!
i imagine the design process went something like "i say jenkins do you remember those paper planes we made at school..."
@ “Y’know…if we go reeeaally fast, we don’t really need the guns…”