I'm in the UK market for a new working 4x4 (forestry and towing). Landcruiser (Prado 2.8) up against Grenadier. I've owned 4 Defenders, 2 Discoveries, Rangie, Amarok, D-Max, Hilux, X-Trail) etc before. Just had a Grenadier on a day long working test. Very impressed. Was concerned about the LHD footrest, but I'm 6'2" with size 12 feet, in boots and never noticed it - far better seating position than 'old' Defender. Hell, way better than any pickup I've driven (err, all of 'em) Very comfy, very adjustable. Well judged throttle mapping (diesel), very good brakes, steering very good at low speed, finely weighted in quick corners, vague centred on road at mid-high speed (still better than Defender). Very (surprisingly) refined re vibration and wind noise. Wind noise an issue above 80mph. Off road, big and capable - like any 4x4 it has weaknesses and strengths, but well judged for a (very) big 4x4. Driving, it felt smaller than it is (unlike Discovery) and very placeable off road and on. Inside, shame the rear seats don't fold flat, but with draws fitted to rear load bay, they would and as the rear bay is so high, that's preferable to a step down to the seats with draws fitted. All closures and fixings, switches and lights worked as they should and actually surprised me with the quality. In all, I was staggered that this was a first generation vehicle in mass production, 6 years from inception. Yes it has some faults (like ALL), but the strengths outweighed them. Now, there's no Landcruiser 70 in Europe, so true alternatives are limited, but I'm very tempted to take a punt. As for price, I can get one for £5k more than a Ranger, £10k more than Hilux and £5k less than Landcruiser (£15k less than modern Defender!). To me, that's relatively good value.
Interesting. I've been told the Utility is ok, the Station Wagon (Fieldmaster etc) not. Getting a straight answer out of HMRC not the easiest! But I know people who have them and claimed successfully.@@cornishlad97
Cheers! Just trying to be objective as I found it. My opinion is that it was absolutely bl00dy fantastic, but I have to keep my sensible hat on for a big purchase. How are you getting on with yours? Any probs/irritants/hidden brilliance? This is a long-term purchase for me, probably to see out ICE vehicles.@@M0RMY
Great points. I've only seen one from the outside and was very impressed in the detailing, overall design and apparent robustness. Also, full respect to the design and manufacturing teams from inception to reality in such a short time with all its complexities.
Andrew, the part of the Defender not being able to get onto the flat bed tow truck is an operator error. ALL cars with electronic parking brakes have a manual overrides. The fact the owner or tow operator didn't use their head to search the manual to see that when you pop the hood there is a very small leaver to pull which will manually disengage the parking brake and put the car in N, is only their fault and no one else.
Overlanding with Bruce has done some insane adventures to be honest. Mana pools, Delta River crossings, etc. So I think the new land rover defender is capable lol.
The issue with the defender isn't necessarily that it isn't capable, it's that it's a liability. If you do encounter some kind of failure or unrecoverable damage, it's considerably more difficult to get out of that, let alone get home. The other issue with it is that it's considerably more expensive to modify. If you've got the cash that's great, but that severely limits its utility as an adventure vehicle.
One of my most favourite experiences as well ♥️. I am an older West Australian, but Ningaloo and Dampier are so very hard to beat. Thank you for reminding me 😊. Safe travels.
Quite possible Land Rover knew the off roading limitations of the new Defender & engineered it primarily as a luxury suv for the urban customer keeping its off roading ability as second priority. The urban market is far greater than the off roading one, this is confirmed by the waiting period for the new Defender. For a manufacturer, the sales volume supersedes everything else.
I believe you to be 100% correct, whilst the torque comes in at slightly higher revs, it's far more torque delivered by multiplying effect of Torque Converter, less speed more revs plus smoother driveline delivery over manually locked (clutch out) drive line. Current Prado demonstrates this point, shits all over a 70 series in performance & fuel economy.
Andrew, what you say about the Defender and the Ineos are true (reliability, range challenges, too much tech, posers, etc).....but, it would be 1000% more interesting to follow your travels if you did have one of these vehicles and show their capabilities and flaws. Experiencing a major breakdown in Oz is not the same as breaking down in Africa....you're much safer in Oz with no border crossings and all the other life threatening challenges that can face travelers in a most of Africa. Come on Land Rover, sponsor a truck and trip on a well known Oz track and let Andrew report his experience. It would definitely be highly entertaining and must watch. Doing the trip in a Toyota means there will be minimal vehicle information to report. I want to see issues and problems and how you overcome them.....that is also how we learn.
I wonder if resale value is a consideration for him? Surely the Toyota’s hold up better.. ? But I agree.. I would be far more interested if he drove something else. Toyotas as dead boring by now..
Toyota's are bought for a resson when overlanding. My grandfather always said if it's made by a Jap 🇯🇵 it ain't crap. But he was a very big Toyota fan... I was almost baptised by him, when I got my first Toyota. 😂😂
Agree. At some time Andrew you need to move on. You can't live in the past. Vehicles only get better if you embrace them. With modern communication breakdowns are not that bad generally. You just need time and patience. Disagree as most of us now carry emergency jump packs for power and Starlink is becoming very common.
Lovely Ep and tips, We have carried half green tomatoes for weeks over very corrugated roads up Cape York and the QLD and NT Gulf in the 80s and 90s wrapped in a few layers of news paper and as the rippen up we ate them , same with all our fruit, no bushes at all, A local chap has a IG and he just did a trip from Noosa to the Gulf of QLD and back around 5000ks towing a small off road van it used around 15lph and went lovely he said.
Andrew, You absolutely struck gold the day you met Gwynn, she is absolutely a gem & I love seeing segments on your channel where she features. You both are a wealth of knowledge & experience, only with Gwynn she somehow managed to achieve that all yet remain beautiful & youthful……you less so mate 😂. Thankyou for such an excellent channel. 10/10👍🏼
I'm getting used to this type of comment about Gwynn. Thanks. Proper spelling is Gwynneth. Its Welsh. But I don't hold it against her. Well, not often.
@@4xoverland I will have to work on my spelling of her name, that’s for sure 🤦♂️. Great segments either way 👍🏼 I get sick of the negativity of some of the smart (not so smart) comments on this platform sometime directed towards the content creators & I try to go out of my way to let people know that their efforts are appreciated. Now, I’m just going to race back to the original comment & fix my spelling errors 👍🏼
The build quality is shockingly bad, there are multiple video's on YT showing customers with bolts missing very poor workmanship in the flooring and so on, go and look at harrys farm review as one example, half the bolts were missing in the boot door.
Oh please Harry works for Landrover so made out the car was crap. The missing screws in the back panel were due to the car being a late test vehicle and they previously installed the fold down table option.
Nice information, thanks for sharing :) Any idea on transmission temperatures? Would be nice to compare the heat of a manual at 110 km/h to the heat of an auto at 110 km/h. Cheers
I had a 110 defender and this was pre all the computer software update shyte. It was awesome, I had a solar panel on the roof wired to the battery so if it ever went flat I had a way of charging it and I never looked back. Sadly my new wife of 20 years ago said it was a bone shaker and persuaded me sell it. I learned 4x4 driving in the British army and have loved it ever since.
I am a retired motor mechanic (Old school) & personally I think you will eventually become disappointed with the 2.8Lt after having the V8. Yes the automatic will be nice for a while but I really do think the V8 manual is already over engineered & bulletproof for all your needs, + there is no substitute for cubic inches.
G'day Mate, Probably not because they would think that their mighty V8 clutch would more than handle the Raw power of an idiotic 4 cyl. However I am not sure if the new wizbang 4cyl sludge box comes in a manual. LOL.@@npet6842
Grenadier: last November I queued excitedly to take my turn to just sit in the Grenadier at the Perth 4WD and Adventure Show. Sadly, the space constraint in the driver side footwell was a deal breaker for me. I simply could not imagine sitting comfortably in the car for even a short drive. So many aspects of the car really appealed to me and I'd been following its development from close to the first publications and videos. And then I sat in it, and it was all over. I was so sad.
Same here. I was going to purchase one along with a few friends when they announced with pricing. Then when it actually came time to truly sell them the price jumped and there’s almost no dealer support. Too many options on the market for that they are asking.
I don't Live in America (I'm Australian) but is it possible to Import a Vehicle made in the UAE into the USA? Why I ask, is because in the UAE they still make a LHD, Petrol, GU Nissan Patrol (Sold in Australia 1997-2016 (Arguably One of the Best 4WD/Overland Vehicles ever Built)) and could be a Better and Cheaper alternative to the Grenadier.
Have you not listened to the Overland Journal podcast.. Scott fully explains the Starlink system he has installed on the Ineos. He also talks about the border crossing and the fuel range issues.
I have seen a Grenadier parked up off Winton Road in Joondalup, so they are starting to appear. Lets hope someone with one follows your channel and you will get your hands on one soon.
As far as taking your mall crawler Defender off road I guess prepare for the worst, bring an extra battery 🔋. Done ! Defender is still on my short list to buy. Andrew
Beats me how Andrew draws conclusion to rubbish the defender on battery drain based on a sample population of.....1! .....hardly representative of the new defenders.
@@harvey867 Well, he's mostly ranting about the fact it's hard to OR repair OR tow if ever you do break down. Anyway, where I live the option is between Defender or Wrangler PHEV Hybrids (due to extreme taxes), so it'll probably be a Defender for me.
🇦🇺 living in 🇬🇧 I wanted a Defender, then I was about to buy an Ineos, then saw the new LC arriving here early next year, deposit paid, counting down the months!
Hi Andrew i have a grenadier your welcome to test drive, however i live in Melbourne. If your on this side you're welcome to take it for a day or so. Cheers
Not sure why you have trouble carrying tomatoes, we always take them and have no problems. Buy them a bit on the hard side and keep them in the fridge. We’ve had them for a couple of weeks and they never go soft or soggy.
Great video. Man I just love the straight in-your-face facts. This kind of straight up honesty about stuff is so hard to find these days. As I’ve gotten older I do the same (much to the chagrin of others)
I’ve test driven an Ineos and loved it. There are two deal breakers for me though. The killer is the second row seats. They don’t fold flat and if you take them out you still have all the battery box in the way. The second was the ‘foot rest’ it makes for a cramped feel when driving. I could see myself getting cramp in my left leg on a long drive. It’s a shame because I really wanted to love it.
No one that actually owns a Ineos is complaining about the foot rest. The seats don't fold down flat. Really is that all you can fault on the car. People are hanging onto the smallest of things to justify the inability to afford one. The vehicle performs phenomenally out of the box for what it was designed for.
@@watda011 I don’t own one but have driven one and for the 30 minutes I was driving it was fine but I do get sore knees on longer trips if I can’t flex my legs. The rest significantly reduces the amount you can straighten out your knees. So for me it is actually a big problem, it might not be for you but don’t imply people are just looking for something to moan about. The rear seats are a disaster. I often need to carry a couple of portable work benches. In the Defender the seats come out and I can slide the benches in. Simply can’t do that in the Ineos. I could get the van version but I want the option of glass all round and the second row of seats. Perhaps not an issue for you but a real issue for how I would use the vehicle. I had cash available to buy one but the combination of these two issues have left me still looking.
The Ford Bronco rear seat also doesn’t fold flat. Ford made a tool drawer that is the same height as the rear seats folded down. Makes the back flat and adds storage.
It’s perhaps a representation of how disconnected these makers of modern vehicles are from their core consumer base have become. That blows my mind not even being able to release the park brake.
Um the core base for Land Rovers isn’t what it was now though. Sadly. It should be but too many people are buying them for the city and not off-road. JLR are very in touch with what people seem to want them for now. It’s annoying. I have a modern one and I off-road it.
Well , they are selling cars, and the number of overlanders’represent not much, and they mainly focus on toyota and old defender, so , for a manufacturer, this niche is very small, important for the dream image but its not what they are selling
Depending on the design parameters I would think that to spec the engine 2.8t to carry its max payload will involve a looser converter to ove it off the line and keep it in its torque band. Expect as you mentioned time spent at 2500-3500 rpm loaded to keep pace. I think youll be disspointed. No replacement for displacement.
I have the latest 2.8D, I have 60,000km on it and it really took 20-30k for the engine to open out it has great power when on boost.. I do find it a bit dead at low low revs so that will be a factor.. I have my name down for a new Prado LC next year with the new 8sp auto I think that will be very interesting dev it is the first major transmission change to come in the LC getting away from the old style 4/6spd autos I would disagree with the old 3.0 dsl we had one in a hilux and it was great on our farm but an alcoholic .. combined driving towing in out of fields could see you in 15mpg or less the 2.8 rarely gets below 22mpg
Id like to see the chaps at PowerfulUK confirm the issues on the defender. On face value these problems are indeed terrible, but often the biggest brains in the after market can figure out a work around. I see this in various enthusiast cars where the dealers word isn’t the last word, it takes time for the hacks to be discovered.
A vast majority of the issues he's discussed with Land Rovers over the last several years can be addressed with an iiD tool and, to make it easier, a smartphone. (You can use the iiD tool with steering wheel controls, but it's easier using a bluetooth connection to a smartphone).
@@4xoverland Maybe on the new Defender for the particular problem you've discussed here, but not on the Discovery 4 that I've had for 8 years now. Just a smartphone and the iiD tool. Can read and clear all codes, customize settings, but the suspension in manual "service" mode, etc. No internet connection needed.
@@4xoverland there are lot of “enterprising individuals” who seem to be able to drive off in other peoples Landrovers, despite the best efforts of Landrover, maybe they can solve this :-)
Hi Andrew. Interesting video. Can I ask a slightly unrelated question around purchasing a 70 series. I know you have some experience of importing a 70 series into the UK from Australia? I ask you because I know you did so with your Green Troopy. We cannot buy such a new vehicle here in the UK and used vehicles are either impossible to find or have covered intergalactic mileages making them unsuitable to purchase. How difficult do you feel it would be to purchase abroad and import back to the UK, alternatively the same for late low mileage examples. I would be grateful for your views on the subject please. Many thanks Paul. 👍 P.s Found it difficult as you describe using my 2021 RR L405 for a weekend camping trip at the recent Goodwood Revival as leaving doors or hatch open after a very short while set off low battery warnings on the dash which was inconvenient to say the least. I did not fortunately get to flat battery stage and found myself continually have to start the vehicle for short periods to avoid the situation you describe happening to the defender!
My wife’s BMW X5 diesel was parked at a railway station a few times, some years ago, and the railway’s radio frequency prevented the BMW system from shutting down. When she came back in a couple of days the battery was dead flat. No point trying to charge it, because the system needed to be rebooted at a BMW dealer, therefore it was recovered, three times in all, to the dealer on the back of a truck. Guess who’s engine and ECU is fitted to Grenadier!
Plenty of defenders doing overloading with zero problems. Let's not forget you have to open and close the door 35 times with a time of at least a 15 minute intervals. Also you get a dash warning when the battery is running down and the battery has to be dead flat not just in a state where it won't start the car before a laptop needs to be plugged in. Putting a bigger battery in would basically sort the issue.
Your opinion regards Defender is correct.I owned from new 2020 240 D, best car I have owned until, the issues started.DF replacement, crankshaft leaking,engine senses ceasing.12 weeks at LR being fixed. No faith in LR now, wholesaled it, lost money. Bought 2023 Nissan Patrol TIL-old technology but capable and reliable.
The low standard of what I would call "common sense engineering" is amazing in the new Defender. I know someone who has one and we've been off roading together. I'm pleased to say that my 6 year old Mitsubishi Pajero (Shogun here in UK) was not beaten by the new Defender (worth at least 4 X the Shogun). So many things have pushed me towards planning a Grenadier to replace my Shogun - > winch mount system is madness. It's only got a remote control which sometimes won't "pair" and the reset button to enable a repairing is impossible to reach unless you cut away some of the lower grill > mud flaps are poorly mounted and can come off when off roading > side steps have cast aluminum brackets which tend to crack when hit plus the steps themselves are easily bent. LR don't offer rock sliders ! > battery problem as you say is insane - were the electrics designed by one of the LR engineers 9 yr old kids ? Here's a video of my Shogun vs. the new Defender off road in the North of England th-cam.com/video/YY7NPe50TCU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0vXjscE8Ujm6vhfO
I test drove the INEOS in the summer, bit of off road, wade in Spain. The footwell 'footrest' in on the passenger side, and it's now lower than it was in the prototype. It drives worse than the Defender on the road, as you'd imagine and probably could handle more extreme 4x4 conditions. There you go in a nutshell !! But hey, be free to check it out! and remember, that Defender is it's own company, no longer Land Rover
Andrew, I 100% agree with you, in my personal observation, I have noticed that the majority of consumers that are now purchasing the new Defender would have never even considered driving the previous (old) Defender range... It just wasn't ever meant to be a posh vehicle, as is perhaps the case now.
Andrew, I like your predictions on the performance of the 2.8 auto in the big 79 LC. I must say from owning a 2.8 auto Hilux for almost 4 years now, I can tell you the fuel efficiency is not great. They are thirsty engines and I can only assume that it will be worse on a LC which is a lot heavier. Standard the Hilux is about 2.2 ton from the factory, a LC79 is closer to 2.8 - 3 ton standard. I only get 8.5kms/L highway cruising unladen. Fully packed for a trip +- 500 - 600kgs above factory weight, I average 6.5 - 7kms/L and that is roughly the factory weight of a LC79.... so you will most likely get the same fuel efficiency if not worse when fully loaded. Oh and another valid thing to mention is that you can't go bigger than the factory tyres otherwise you will never hit top gear in the auto and your fuel range will suffer. I recently went 1 inch bigger (32 inch tyre) than factory and it took off 1.5km/L on my daily driving, I can't imagine if you go to 33 or 35 inch tyres, you will literally half your fuel efficiency. Go watch Ronny Dahl video on the Hilux 2.8 fuel consumption after he modified it. You will get a full view of how thirsty those 2.8 engines are. Keep up the awesome content. 💪🏻💪🏻
Bigger wheels/tires mean lower rpms at same speed (like longer gearing) which should result in LOWER fuel consumption. Wider tires are less aerodynamic and that can rise the fuel consumption for few percent at higher speeds (above 80 km/h or 50 mph). Rolling resistance of a tire has also some effect(ca 3%) on fuel consumption. But generally larger wheel diameters results in lower fuel consumption -- your claim is very surprising.
@@ms-jl6dl Never have I ever heard anyone in the world say "my bigger tyres gave my vehicle better fuel consumption" . Bigger diameter or wider tyres = more rolling resistance/more torque required to get vehicle moving = more work needed to be done to achieve the same output, which therefore, results in more fuel being burnt. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and your theory of bigger wheels = higher gearing = less work needing to be done = fuel savings... was nowhere to be seen and can be mathematically proved false, otherwise all vehicles would come standard from the factory with bigger tyres if your proclaimed benefits were legitimate.
The larger tyre problem won’t bother those that use the 2.8 LC for station tracks and fleet vehicles but I can imagine the cut lunch cowboys that pimp them out from the ARB checklist will be devasted.
Re. the Defender, overlanders would inevitably fit a dual battery system with a controller which would link the batteries, so if the starting battery went weak the vehicle would still be able to draw power from the second battery to start. Also, many overlanders including myself now fit rooftop solar connected to the starting battery. I recently went through this myself when the starting battery in my 2009 Defender failed, but it could still be started from the second battery. Also, many people including myself carry a lithium jump starter pack, which could start tge vehicle. BTW the V8 is to remain available in the 70 series, according to 4 x 4 Australia.
Just activate the boot lock, it's disabled as standard, when you do this it won't activate the start up screen which doubles drain the battery. Added point it would have to be a test to see if the tracker system in the defender also has an idle drain on the system, if so remove the option and just place some apple air tags into the car and wheels, there about 25 dollars each. Also don't mean to point out the obvious but a 100 dollar emergency battery/store jumper would hold power for at least 12 jumps over a 12 months time period and are not much bigger than a hardback book. Am sure there are lot's of CCF's files on any car including the defender that can be deactivated, everyone mod's there 4x4 but seems to forget just how easy it is to mod the CCF files.
Also it's factual wrong to say you need a laptop to jump the defender with a flat battery, you would know this if you had tried it yourself instead of listening to a rumour mill. Andrew I thought you would have learned this after the ABS debacle.
@@terryteesI've scoured the internet looking for instances of this happening. It looks to be a rumor. It's hard to come up with simple solutions when you're constantly focused on the problems.
I’m at 37,000 miles on my 2020 Defender, several trips from San Diego to Montana, and into the Canadian wilderness without a single issue whatsoever. I’m grateful that my rig has been so incredibly reliable, even in temperatures-40F for 3 straight days…. I feel like Andrew’s criticisms of the Defender while accurate to his standards, (if you’re trying to develop a rig that can go into the inner stratospheres of earth) into places like the Australian Outback, or Africa… places that our ancestors thankfully abandoned, or our species would’ve gone extinct like 99% of every living thing that has ever lived on this planet. It’s absurd to expect that an auto manufacture should mass produce a vehicle off the line designed for that purpose. The fact is for every day life in the mountain states of North America, the Defender is more than capable of helping you joyfully inhabit your place in the world.
Definitely taking a backwards step getting the 2.8 if you want auto just bite the bullet and get a auto conversion for your current troopy i get its a big expense but will have the best touring rig
@4xoverland Far heavier? Keep in mind, the Prado was built on a 70 originally. I think a bit of reorganisation and less unnecessary shit. You'd be fine.
I have the 2.8L diesel prado a new one with the latest engine. It is very capable, you will not be disappointed in your new 70 series, as far as the engine and transmission is concerned
Very few manufacturers are making vehicles that are designed first and foremost with offroad issues in mind. Most are street vehicles that then have offroading stuff added on. Those offroading things might be quite good, but there are lots of things that are not visible that may not be well thought out. Jeep Wranglers and Gladiators are two of the few left designed specifically for offroad. So Jeeps are easily modifiable and built expressly with the idea that they will be modded, breathers for the diffs either have a plug (rear) and pretty high (front) that you can easily make even higher, the alternator is up high so it won’t be constantly submerged in water crossings, everything on the underside is up high above the body rails, transfer case is still mechanical (a guy I know actually had his cable break in 4lo but was able to fix it to get to 2hi at end of trail), parking brake is mechanical, on auto trans models trans cable can be accessed via a little cover in front of shifter manually get it out of park, it can be flat towed, no turbos to break, not even a cable to open the hood to break, buttons for everything on the dash and also ability to do through touchscreen if you want, hard-drive Nav system if you get it so you have nav even if no internet with breadcrumbs feature. There are probably more I am forgetting right now. I offroaded a modded LR4 as my last veh. Really loved it and it was a bit of a mid life crisis/ nostalgia purchase as the original Disco and Disco 2 is the LR that fired my imagination as a yute, and now that I could afford it I went for it, but man it had a lot of electronics and by the end I wanted to get back to a more manual and mechanical offroader. In addition to reliability (I was getting worried as it was getting older of a failure while in the boonies) I was missing the ability to do the offroading myself instead of being a passive passenger to a computer brain. And in the US any no red light town mechanic can work on a Jeep and if you break down on a trail chances are higher someone out there passing by might have the spare part you need or also be able to fix it. Now out will come all the brand fanboys who will shout about reliability and tell lots of anecdotal tales but I will say a few things in response- first, if you legit wheel you know that any veh can break and we are all just playing the odds, second, reliability and toughness are two different things- I have seen far more IFS vehs (and yes that is Toyotas too) with snapped CVs or other issues (ahem alternator) broken down on trails. Third, there are a shit-ton of old Jeeps running around out there that have not led soft lives- you just can’t tell at first glance because they all look the same. Fourth- not many other 4x4s where you can take it all off and really get out there with the outdoors while offroading. And lastly- still the best offroader is the one you own- don’t worry about what “is best” or the newest thing, wheel what ya got and enjoy it- your money is probably better spent modding what ya got for how ya wheel or overland and fixing what ya break than buying new. End of the day, we’re all out there trying to capture the same experience and facing the same challenges, and I’ll waive to anyone I see with the same mentality- it ain’t a Jeep thing, it’s an offroader thing. 🤙
Good points about the Toyota 2.8, 4cyl v 4.5, v8. Here in the UK I am looking forward to the 2024 70 series. Sadly we are restricted by emission rules that the 2.8 engine family meets. I look forward to your comparison. The 70 series will not arrive in UK until spring 2024 at least.
Andrew, I've asked this to some other people, no answer yet. Can the Ineos be put in neutral to tow it if the engine is not running? Quite often I come across across BMW vehicles with that shifter and to put them into neutral, you have to pull off a cover underneath and screw up a bolt with an Allen key to release the parking pawl. I hope the Ineos isn't this complicated, like hopefully it's got a neutral position in the transfer case.
Just saw 2 x new Defenders in Savuti - very deep soft sand and in October very hot - towing offroad trailers without any hassles and I was very impressed how easy it managed the sand - even in the campsite, where I had to use Low range on my Td5 and gameviewer Cruisers from lodges battled as well!! I am not a fan of the new Defender ( but a HUGE Tdi, Td5 fan) but was impressed by it's performance towing heavy Bushlapa trailers- so I dissagree with Andrew, but then, he is and always been a Toyota fan
Disagree with what? I said they are excellent performers in many ways. Did you not hear that? I said it several times. But when they have a fault, even a minor one, it could leave then stranded. This is a fact. It's built into the design and not my opinion. And with your Td5, you'll be smiling all the way home.
In the area I live there are many current model defenders driving round, what I’m shocked about is how many have headlight out driving with only one light working… already… what the?!?
Possibly your best vid yet. Love the pantry. In fact its how we live with our bottle-O at home as we have an orchard etc. your comments re the defender (im not too sure what you could defend, not even your pride but a nice Polo field car). 2.8. Well ive stopped buying the 70s and bought a hikux to see if i can live with it. It does not deliver its KW or Torque the same way the v8 does. Even tho on paper they produce roughly the same. The SR is great in that it doesnt beep or gong or take control of the steering (you have to deliberately turn that crap on)… So im gunna watch others “go first” re the 70. Intruely hope this isnt the end of the product like the patrol 3.0
lnteresting video and comments. l've had the old Defender and now have the new Defender in base "Commercial" specification. l had a Grenadier on order and test drove it. I've also got a 2020 Jimny. l'll ignore his comments about the new Defender because he clearly just doesn't like it. The Grenadier is fabulous but it's just too expensive. When l configured mine it was £50,000 and then it went up to £65,000. As it's not a Commercial Vehicle l can't get the tax back like l can on the Defender, which makes it effectively £25,000 more (than a Defender) The Defender is very good off road, it may have limits but they are well beyond what 99% of owners will ever do with them. Mine does go off road in my work. The old Defender is perfect for Overlanding as it's designed primarily for that purpose. Which one would l take across Africa? None of the above. l would take our 2020 Jimny, which in my opinion is what Land Rover should have done with the old Defender lt's unstoppable off road and 100% reliable. The only issue is, it's a bit small. 25% larger and it would be an absolute world beater.
Great to see you again Andrew. Being a True Land Rover Defender owner with my 1987 110 ex MoD in Scotland. I love your assessment on the “Pretender”. For sure a city car for posers 😂👍 take care my good man.
I had a LC90 with the old 3 litre turbo diesel engine and automatic gear box. The turbo worked already at very low RPM, and the auto gear box was perfectly adjusted to this engine. It was a wonderful car off road, with the right amount of torque at low RPMs. Now I have a LC150 which is totally different. It has the same 3 litre diesel engine, but now with the common rail injection system, a turbo with an immense turbo lag (no noticeable turbo boost until about 2500 RPM) and lots of exhaust cleaning filters and so on. Much more horsepower and torque than the old LC90 - but: the power is not there, when you need it off road: at low RPM. I can´t really understand why Toyota did this. And reducing the 3 litre diesel engine to a 2,8 did certainly not these things better.
You’re wrong regarding the 4 cylinder off road. I’ve done a lot of desert crossings and Vic High Country travels with a V8 cruiser ute. In stock trim, they are gutless and require careful gear selection on approach to obstacles. Last year we crossed the Simpson in a 100% stock standard straight off the showroom Hilux with no accessories at all. We were astounded at how superior an automatic transmission was in the desert. That engine and transmission will improve the 79 a lot. However, I find that in pretty much all 4wd situations, it’s better to use the auto in manual mode so you have instant throttle response and aren’t waiting for a gear change. Engine braking is reasonable too, even on steep high country descents, with DAC only needed for the steepest of sections. I think you’ll be impressed.
Dwight Schrute of the 4X4 world here loves digging the hole deeper with OEM's. Also loves making mountains out of molehills in a struggle for relevance. If I was Ineos I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Will Toyota not use a. bigger turbo to compensate for the lower power and torque of the 2.8 engine? When it comes to the automatic gearbox I think they will likely use ratios more suited for off roading and towing rather than speed and on-road performance as in the Fortuner and Hill.
The interesting factor that everyone hasn’t covered in the conversation on the LC 2.8 with auto is that the box is an 8 speed. Hopefully it works. Also re the 200 comments, were not all grey nomads🤫
I am led to believe the 2024 update 70 Series auto will be the carry over 6 speed, same as what's in the current Hilux. Sadly, it is not going to be equipped with the new 8 speed auto ala the upcoming 250 Series next year.
Andrew, INEOS hesitation is understandable. With less sensationalised subjectivity perhaps more 4wd manufacturers would be willing to loan their vehicles; although that maybe counter to getting views. For those reading this comment have a look at L2SFBC Robert Pepper comparison between Grenadier, Defender, Patrol and LC300 for an objective analysis. ASPW I appreciate your expeditions and story telling. But on some of these reviews perhaps some more objectivity.
Having recently driven a Grenadier , I found the dynamics to be like an early Landcruiser 100 with live axles . I'm use to the engine/ZF in X5 . It's shortcomings ( alterable or not ) are already coming to light on Aussie TH-cam clips . Will it come through in sales or die out here , I don't know .........
After having a 2014 3.0 SR5 auto hilux and a 2018 2.8 SR5 auto. Both stock tyres and no tune. Both decked out the same for touring including trips of the Tanami desert and grand central hwy. The 3.0 was average 2.0 ltr per 100 better. But towing thats a different story, the less torque of the 3.0 made towing a fatiguing chore. I dreaed towing with it. the 2.8 breezes towing in. My 79 series smashes towing out of the park in all aspects compared to hiluxs.
honestly, i find it fascinating that people obsess over what car is "the best" when if you look through history specifically in aus, people were doing massive trips in wagons that just had slightly bigger tyres, or the OLD 4wd with the fat tyres they just made it work, nowadays people think they need all the bits and bobs but really they're just quality of life upgrades as long as you have a shovel and there are some sticks around, bar a roll over or drowning, you can recover yourself obviously then the only thing that matters is keeping the car running which does lend itsself to simplicity and protection but. anyway, people took VW beetles onto the beach back in the day any all wheel drive vehicle is more capable than that let alone a dedicated 4wd
Thanks for the great content. Last time I looked, the Grenadier didn't seem to have a great payload. It seemed to have a higher TARE than the G-Wagen 461, itself not light. Makes me wonder how serious Ineos are. I'm open to correction, of course
Well, it's not surprising to me that the Grenadier is heavier than a W461. It has airbags, an ad Blue tank and the facilities to process that fluid, is bigger, has a heavier gearbox (1 additional gear) and creature comforts the W461 never had. If you compare it with a W463 (even the pre 2018 model) it still is heavier but also still bigger. The given payload is higher than on both W461 and W63 to my knowledge. (One could also think that they made things beefier as they have less experience and went the safe way for longevity. The guys in Graz have over 40 years of experience, and when someone comes and says make our stuff outlast the G parts, they will make it do so.)
@@hintersland7262 Yes, but they work to the requirements each company gives them. Hence my example with what i could imagine Ineos giving as one requirement: "Make the parts outlive the parts on a G". Not sure if that was a real requirement, but it would explain parts of the weight difference pretty good.
Andrew, I wonder what you think about petrol or diesel 70 series of 90's. I can drive it my petrol from 500 to 4000 rpm easy with tons of torque. Is it a better idea to get a very cheap vehicle travel in the wild "primitively"? I would love to see you take a trip in an old car like that and do an historical review of trucks that came along.
All these trucks would be a really good option, if , and it's a Big IF, they would just take notes from Toyota, and apply it to their vehicles. But they, Don't, and they Won't. So, just like Land Rover, just like Ioenos will always be issues of reliability, which should be above all else the #1 priority, especially for the cost of most us them. Andrew, if I was a car company, I would only give you a car, if I had Full Confidence in it like I do a Toyota Land Cruisers, because the one thing I know(and Expect) is an Honest, Full Test review with the the Good, Bad, and the Ugly. But, then again I'd call you during the dream, ideology, methodology, development, build, and the testing of course. You have a ton of wisdom in the overland, especially vehicles, and like you I have found what works, and is the Best, and when you drive/own a TLC, it makes it really hard to drive anything else, if you rely on it as a tool. Thos others are cool, cute toys to play with, if you have that much Time and money. You do good work! When are you and Paul doing a 200 series build?
Unfortunately, chances are that this is just another hear-say Defender rumor circulated by Andrew - not rooted in any kind of facts. Just like his famous Defender ABS rant..
@@scandinavia6271Of course it is, he’s been proved wrong on many of his deranged rants regarding the defender. Does he expect a manufacturer to mass produce a fully jacked up vehicle to cross deserts, mountains etc for maybe 1% of so called “hardcore off roaders” with no tech on it??
I'm in the UK market for a new working 4x4 (forestry and towing). Landcruiser (Prado 2.8) up against Grenadier. I've owned 4 Defenders, 2 Discoveries, Rangie, Amarok, D-Max, Hilux, X-Trail) etc before. Just had a Grenadier on a day long working test. Very impressed. Was concerned about the LHD footrest, but I'm 6'2" with size 12 feet, in boots and never noticed it - far better seating position than 'old' Defender. Hell, way better than any pickup I've driven (err, all of 'em) Very comfy, very adjustable.
Well judged throttle mapping (diesel), very good brakes, steering very good at low speed, finely weighted in quick corners, vague centred on road at mid-high speed (still better than Defender). Very (surprisingly) refined re vibration and wind noise. Wind noise an issue above 80mph. Off road, big and capable - like any 4x4 it has weaknesses and strengths, but well judged for a (very) big 4x4. Driving, it felt smaller than it is (unlike Discovery) and very placeable off road and on. Inside, shame the rear seats don't fold flat, but with draws fitted to rear load bay, they would and as the rear bay is so high, that's preferable to a step down to the seats with draws fitted. All closures and fixings, switches and lights worked as they should and actually surprised me with the quality.
In all, I was staggered that this was a first generation vehicle in mass production, 6 years from inception. Yes it has some faults (like ALL), but the strengths outweighed them. Now, there's no Landcruiser 70 in Europe, so true alternatives are limited, but I'm very tempted to take a punt. As for price, I can get one for £5k more than a Ranger, £10k more than Hilux and £5k less than Landcruiser (£15k less than modern Defender!). To me, that's relatively good value.
Utterly agree with every point you make - I absolutely love mine.
From what I have heard they are not vat reclaimable. Not a high enough payload to be a commercial vehicle by the HMRC 🤔
Interesting. I've been told the Utility is ok, the Station Wagon (Fieldmaster etc) not. Getting a straight answer out of HMRC not the easiest! But I know people who have them and claimed successfully.@@cornishlad97
Cheers! Just trying to be objective as I found it. My opinion is that it was absolutely bl00dy fantastic, but I have to keep my sensible hat on for a big purchase. How are you getting on with yours? Any probs/irritants/hidden brilliance? This is a long-term purchase for me, probably to see out ICE vehicles.@@M0RMY
Great points. I've only seen one from the outside and was very impressed in the detailing, overall design and apparent robustness. Also, full respect to the design and manufacturing teams from inception to reality in such a short time with all its complexities.
Scott’s walk around video a cpl weeks ago was really spot on, great info. Looking forward to see the rest of the trip.
Andrew, the part of the Defender not being able to get onto the flat bed tow truck is an operator error.
ALL cars with electronic parking brakes have a manual overrides. The fact the owner or tow operator didn't use their head to search the manual to see that when you pop the hood there is a very small leaver to pull which will manually disengage the parking brake and put the car in N, is only their fault and no one else.
Overlanding with Bruce has done some insane adventures to be honest. Mana pools, Delta River crossings, etc. So I think the new land rover defender is capable lol.
The issue with the defender isn't necessarily that it isn't capable, it's that it's a liability. If you do encounter some kind of failure or unrecoverable damage, it's considerably more difficult to get out of that, let alone get home.
The other issue with it is that it's considerably more expensive to modify. If you've got the cash that's great, but that severely limits its utility as an adventure vehicle.
LR have always been capable, no one can deny that. It's about the reliability.
One of my most favourite experiences as well ♥️. I am an older West Australian, but Ningaloo and Dampier are so very hard to beat. Thank you for reminding me 😊. Safe travels.
Just love watching your channel again and again and again. Thank you!
Quite possible Land Rover knew the off roading limitations of the new Defender & engineered it primarily as a luxury suv for the urban customer keeping its off roading ability as second priority. The urban market is far greater than the off roading one, this is confirmed by the waiting period for the new Defender. For a manufacturer, the sales volume supersedes everything else.
Torque converter will resolve your off road concerns. I think the fuel savings will be more too.
I believe you to be 100% correct, whilst the torque comes in at slightly higher revs, it's far more torque delivered by multiplying effect of Torque Converter, less speed more revs plus smoother driveline delivery over manually locked (clutch out) drive line.
Current Prado demonstrates this point, shits all over a 70 series in performance & fuel economy.
Andrew, what you say about the Defender and the Ineos are true (reliability, range challenges, too much tech, posers, etc).....but, it would be 1000% more interesting to follow your travels if you did have one of these vehicles and show their capabilities and flaws. Experiencing a major breakdown in Oz is not the same as breaking down in Africa....you're much safer in Oz with no border crossings and all the other life threatening challenges that can face travelers in a most of Africa. Come on Land Rover, sponsor a truck and trip on a well known Oz track and let Andrew report his experience. It would definitely be highly entertaining and must watch. Doing the trip in a Toyota means there will be minimal vehicle information to report. I want to see issues and problems and how you overcome them.....that is also how we learn.
I guess the reason why Andrew 😂does it in a land cruiser is because he knows he will arrive home safely, Andrew doesn't take chances
I wonder if resale value is a consideration for him? Surely the Toyota’s hold up better.. ?
But I agree.. I would be far more interested if he drove something else. Toyotas as dead boring by now..
Toyota's are bought for a resson when overlanding. My grandfather always said if it's made by a Jap 🇯🇵 it ain't crap. But he was a very big Toyota fan... I was almost baptised by him, when I got my first Toyota. 😂😂
Watch Overlanding with Bruce
Agree. At some time Andrew you need to move on. You can't live in the past. Vehicles only get better if you embrace them. With modern communication breakdowns are not that bad generally. You just need time and patience. Disagree as most of us now carry emergency jump packs for power and Starlink is becoming very common.
Lovely Ep and tips, We have carried half green tomatoes for weeks over very corrugated roads up Cape York and the QLD and NT Gulf in the 80s and 90s wrapped in a few layers of news paper and as the rippen up we ate them , same with all our fruit, no bushes at all, A local chap has a IG and he just did a trip from Noosa to the Gulf of QLD and back around 5000ks towing a small off road van it used around 15lph and went lovely he said.
Amazingly the first advert that popped up while watching this was an ad for a Land Rover. Brilliant marketing
The more I watch, the happier I am with my old Trooper 3.0 ( even if it is the feared 4jx1)!
Your videos, your thoughts are the best to hear!!!
Andrew, You absolutely struck gold the day you met Gwynn, she is absolutely a gem & I love seeing segments on your channel where she features. You both are a wealth of knowledge & experience, only with Gwynn she somehow managed to achieve that all yet remain beautiful & youthful……you less so mate 😂. Thankyou for such an excellent channel. 10/10👍🏼
I'm getting used to this type of comment about Gwynn. Thanks. Proper spelling is Gwynneth. Its Welsh. But I don't hold it against her. Well, not often.
@@4xoverland I will have to work on my spelling of her name, that’s for sure 🤦♂️. Great segments either way 👍🏼 I get sick of the negativity of some of the smart (not so smart) comments on this platform sometime directed towards the content creators & I try to go out of my way to let people know that their efforts are appreciated. Now, I’m just going to race back to the original comment & fix my spelling errors 👍🏼
I got to check out a few Grenadiers at the Sydney 4x4 show and was very impressed by the build quality given they're a new company.
The build quality is shockingly bad, there are multiple video's on YT showing customers with bolts missing very poor workmanship in the flooring and so on, go and look at harrys farm review as one example, half the bolts were missing in the boot door.
Oh please Harry works for Landrover so made out the car was crap. The missing screws in the back panel were due to the car being a late test vehicle and they previously installed the fold down table option.
Love the reviews of cars you have not or barely driven
Lol
I replaced the v8 manual with an auto and my rev went from 2500 revs at 110km per hour down to 1400 rev at 110km and dropped more than 3 litre per 100
Nice information, thanks for sharing :) Any idea on transmission temperatures? Would be nice to compare the heat of a manual at 110 km/h to the heat of an auto at 110 km/h.
Cheers
@Land_Cruiser_40 temp never seems to get above 70 although with a 2.5ton boat up hill I have seen it go to 80
Very true about the fuel consumption between the 2.8lt GD6 and 3lt D4D. The older engine saves I do drive both
Ek het nou lekker gelag vir die Defender storie. Thanks oom Andrew
Wat van di land cruiser 300 Toyota man
Morning Andrew, in my area the new Defender is very popular on the school run , it’s perfect for mounting the curbs outside the school 😅
And also popular with pathetic men that can't drive a manual, and have emasculated bullshit jobs like real estate agents and "project managers".
A new Toorak Tractor model?
I had a 110 defender and this was pre all the computer software update shyte. It was awesome, I had a solar panel on the roof wired to the battery so if it ever went flat I had a way of charging it and I never looked back. Sadly my new wife of 20 years ago said it was a bone shaker and persuaded me sell it. I learned 4x4 driving in the British army and have loved it ever since.
Awesome episode Andrew. Many thanks from Cape Town. 😊
I laughed as Andrew has talking about the new Landcruiser and a new Landrover was out the side window. 13:20
Good Luck on troopy been waiting for one dec 21
I've thought that ZF8 trans has a screw to disconnect park brake on the bottom of its housing
I am a retired motor mechanic (Old school) & personally I think you will eventually become disappointed with the 2.8Lt after having the V8. Yes the automatic will be nice for
a while but I really do think the V8 manual is already over engineered & bulletproof for all your needs, + there is no substitute for cubic inches.
Have they improved the under rated clutch that slips when towing ?
G'day Mate, Probably not because they would think that their mighty V8 clutch would more than handle the Raw power of an idiotic 4 cyl. However I am not sure if the new wizbang 4cyl sludge box comes in a manual. LOL.@@npet6842
Nice no bullshit video.thanks.hope you get the Ineos to test
Andrew I am looking all your video from Laos I love it thank a lot I am lock here since10 years but I got your video Bob
Grenadier: last November I queued excitedly to take my turn to just sit in the Grenadier at the Perth 4WD and Adventure Show. Sadly, the space constraint in the driver side footwell was a deal breaker for me. I simply could not imagine sitting comfortably in the car for even a short drive. So many aspects of the car really appealed to me and I'd been following its development from close to the first publications and videos. And then I sat in it, and it was all over. I was so sad.
Yep.. this is the very point that broke it for me too. Such an oversight!!!!!
I dont even realise its there anymore. An im 6'2"
Never meet your heroes.
@@nothingtoseaheardammit lol But then, if you're in the market for new 80 series,THIS is what you're in for.
#Toyota80series
You guys are so lucky to get Land Cruiser Troopy’s, 79 Series et al with diesels. EPA sux
U.S. ...so true , a new troopy v8 diesel id never have to buy a another. off roader
Ineos price in America is way more than I expected. That was a killer for me.
Same here. I was going to purchase one along with a few friends when they announced with pricing. Then when it actually came time to truly sell them the price jumped and there’s almost no dealer support. Too many options on the market for that they are asking.
Or you could buy a 2023 F150 for the same price…
I don't Live in America (I'm Australian) but is it possible to Import a Vehicle made in the UAE into the USA?
Why I ask, is because in the UAE they still make a LHD, Petrol, GU Nissan Patrol (Sold in Australia 1997-2016 (Arguably One of the Best 4WD/Overland Vehicles ever Built)) and could be a Better and Cheaper alternative to the Grenadier.
@@DMSVICAU We can import a vehicle if it’s sold here. If not, we need to wait 25 years. California has its own rules
Sadly the price killed it for me as well. Starts from £65,000 in the U.K.
I'm checking out that food course for my domestic meal arrangements!
Have you not listened to the Overland Journal podcast.. Scott fully explains the Starlink system he has installed on the Ineos. He also talks about the border crossing and the fuel range issues.
Thought I did well with a 6-8 week pantry in my truck, although I do like to get milk and bread every 10 days if possible but can bake my own bread.
I have to ask Andrew, why have you mounted the awning and Maxtrax table on the driver's side for this build?
I have seen a Grenadier parked up off Winton Road in Joondalup, so they are starting to appear. Lets hope someone with one follows your channel and you will get your hands on one soon.
Loved the defender cameo 😂
As far as taking your mall crawler Defender off road I guess prepare for the worst, bring an extra battery 🔋.
Done !
Defender is still on my short list to buy.
Andrew
Beats me how Andrew draws conclusion to rubbish the defender on battery drain based on a sample population of.....1! .....hardly representative of the new defenders.
@@harvey867 Well, he's mostly ranting about the fact it's hard to OR repair OR tow if ever you do break down. Anyway, where I live the option is between Defender or Wrangler PHEV Hybrids (due to extreme taxes), so it'll probably be a Defender for me.
🇦🇺 living in 🇬🇧
I wanted a Defender, then I was about to buy an Ineos, then saw the new LC arriving here early next year, deposit paid, counting down the months!
You’ve been able to put down a deposit for a new LC in the UK?? Wow! Where abouts are you in the UK?
Hi Andrew i have a grenadier your welcome to test drive, however i live in Melbourne. If your on this side you're welcome to take it for a day or so. Cheers
Not sure why you have trouble carrying tomatoes, we always take them and have no problems. Buy them a bit on the hard side and keep them in the fridge. We’ve had them for a couple of weeks and they never go soft or soggy.
Great video. Man I just love the straight in-your-face facts. This kind of straight up honesty about stuff is so hard to find these days.
As I’ve gotten older I do the same (much to the chagrin of others)
He's hilarious and genuine
Very rare these days 😂
I'll continue to watch
I’ve test driven an Ineos and loved it. There are two deal breakers for me though. The killer is the second row seats. They don’t fold flat and if you take them out you still have all the battery box in the way. The second was the ‘foot rest’ it makes for a cramped feel when driving. I could see myself getting cramp in my left leg on a long drive. It’s a shame because I really wanted to love it.
No one is talking about the real issue with the Ineos which is the MPG, it's awful and in fact the worst MPG compared to all the alternatives.
I agree 100% so annoying - that function in my LR3 is amazingly helpful
No one that actually owns a Ineos is complaining about the foot rest. The seats don't fold down flat. Really is that all you can fault on the car. People are hanging onto the smallest of things to justify the inability to afford one. The vehicle performs phenomenally out of the box for what it was designed for.
@@watda011 I don’t own one but have driven one and for the 30 minutes I was driving it was fine but I do get sore knees on longer trips if I can’t flex my legs. The rest significantly reduces the amount you can straighten out your knees. So for me it is actually a big problem, it might not be for you but don’t imply people are just looking for something to moan about. The rear seats are a disaster. I often need to carry a couple of portable work benches. In the Defender the seats come out and I can slide the benches in. Simply can’t do that in the Ineos. I could get the van version but I want the option of glass all round and the second row of seats. Perhaps not an issue for you but a real issue for how I would use the vehicle. I had cash available to buy one but the combination of these two issues have left me still looking.
The Ford Bronco rear seat also doesn’t fold flat. Ford made a tool drawer that is the same height as the rear seats folded down. Makes the back flat and adds storage.
John Canning - at canning outdoors has already posted a Grenadier 5,000 km test of it
It’s perhaps a representation of how disconnected these makers of modern vehicles are from their core consumer base have become. That blows my mind not even being able to release the park brake.
Thats why S.U.V are so popular 99.9% of what they need can be done with a wagon, but its not "keeping up with the jones" 🤦♂️
You can. Obviously the towie didn’t know how. See how things can get distorted?
Um the core base for Land Rovers isn’t what it was now though. Sadly. It should be but too many people are buying them for the city and not off-road. JLR are very in touch with what people seem to want them for now. It’s annoying. I have a modern one and I off-road it.
@@jerrymyahzcat
City use only applies to every 4wd.
Well , they are selling cars, and the number of overlanders’represent not much, and they mainly focus on toyota and old defender, so , for a manufacturer, this niche is very small, important for the dream image but its not what they are selling
Toyota is bringing out its baby Land hopper 😂 with the 2.8 … think that will be a best seller smaller lighter, ideal for the urban expedition 😊
Absolutely - this is a true mall crawler by definition.
Dumb question but does the current disco have the same issue as the defender?
Depending on the design parameters I would think that to spec the engine 2.8t to carry its max payload will involve a looser converter to ove it off the line and keep it in its torque band. Expect as you mentioned time spent at 2500-3500 rpm loaded to keep pace. I think youll be disspointed. No replacement for displacement.
I have the latest 2.8D, I have 60,000km on it and it really took 20-30k for the engine to open out it has great power when on boost.. I do find it a bit dead at low low revs so that will be a factor.. I have my name down for a new Prado LC next year with the new 8sp auto I think that will be very interesting dev it is the first major transmission change to come in the LC getting away from the old style 4/6spd autos
I would disagree with the old 3.0 dsl we had one in a hilux and it was great on our farm but an alcoholic .. combined driving towing in out of fields could see you in 15mpg or less the 2.8 rarely gets below 22mpg
Hi Andrew. If Ineos back off, I’d like to suggest a “rental car overland special😅” cheers
Id like to see the chaps at PowerfulUK confirm the issues on the defender. On face value these problems are indeed terrible, but often the biggest brains in the after market can figure out a work around. I see this in various enthusiast cars where the dealers word isn’t the last word, it takes time for the hacks to be discovered.
A vast majority of the issues he's discussed with Land Rovers over the last several years can be addressed with an iiD tool and, to make it easier, a smartphone. (You can use the iiD tool with steering wheel controls, but it's easier using a bluetooth connection to a smartphone).
. . . and an internet connection.
@@4xoverland Maybe on the new Defender for the particular problem you've discussed here, but not on the Discovery 4 that I've had for 8 years now. Just a smartphone and the iiD tool. Can read and clear all codes, customize settings, but the suspension in manual "service" mode, etc. No internet connection needed.
@@4xoverland really are you sure? Because every thing else is rubbish
@@4xoverland there are lot of “enterprising individuals” who seem to be able to drive off in other peoples Landrovers, despite the best efforts of Landrover, maybe they can solve this :-)
Wonder why Toyota didn’t put the V6 TD that they use in the LC300 in the new troopy auto? Seems strange to me.
I guess is, its because of cost. It would drive up the price too much.
Hi Andrew. Interesting video. Can I ask a slightly unrelated question around purchasing a 70 series. I know you have some experience of importing a 70 series into the UK from Australia? I ask you because I know you did so with your Green Troopy. We cannot buy such a new vehicle here in the UK and used vehicles are either impossible to find or have covered intergalactic mileages making them unsuitable to purchase. How difficult do you feel it would be to purchase abroad and import back to the UK, alternatively the same for late low mileage examples. I would be grateful for your views on the subject please. Many thanks Paul. 👍 P.s Found it difficult as you describe using my 2021 RR L405 for a weekend camping trip at the recent Goodwood Revival as leaving doors or hatch open after a very short while set off low battery warnings on the dash which was inconvenient to say the least. I did not fortunately get to flat battery stage and found myself continually have to start the vehicle for short periods to avoid the situation you describe happening to the defender!
My wife’s BMW X5 diesel was parked at a railway station a few times, some years ago, and the railway’s radio frequency prevented the BMW system from shutting down. When she came back in a couple of days the battery was dead flat. No point trying to charge it, because the system needed to be rebooted at a BMW dealer, therefore it was recovered, three times in all, to the dealer on the back of a truck. Guess who’s engine and ECU is fitted to Grenadier!
Plenty of defenders doing overloading with zero problems. Let's not forget you have to open and close the door 35 times with a time of at least a 15 minute intervals. Also you get a dash warning when the battery is running down and the battery has to be dead flat not just in a state where it won't start the car before a laptop needs to be plugged in. Putting a bigger battery in would basically sort the issue.
How would you compare a 2.8 LC to a Hilux? Why you’d cos a 76 over a Hilux? Mainly because of solid front?
Your opinion regards Defender is correct.I owned from new 2020 240 D, best car I have owned until, the issues started.DF replacement, crankshaft leaking,engine senses ceasing.12 weeks at LR being fixed. No faith in LR now, wholesaled it, lost money. Bought 2023 Nissan Patrol TIL-old technology but capable and reliable.
The low standard of what I would call "common sense engineering" is amazing in the new Defender. I know someone who has one and we've been off roading together.
I'm pleased to say that my 6 year old Mitsubishi Pajero (Shogun here in UK) was not beaten by the new Defender (worth at least 4 X the Shogun). So many things have pushed me towards planning a Grenadier to replace my Shogun -
> winch mount system is madness. It's only got a remote control which sometimes won't "pair" and the reset button to enable a repairing is impossible to reach unless you cut away some of the lower grill
> mud flaps are poorly mounted and can come off when off roading
> side steps have cast aluminum brackets which tend to crack when hit plus the steps themselves are easily bent. LR don't offer rock sliders !
> battery problem as you say is insane - were the electrics designed by one of the LR engineers 9 yr old kids ?
Here's a video of my Shogun vs. the new Defender off road in the North of England
th-cam.com/video/YY7NPe50TCU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=0vXjscE8Ujm6vhfO
Andrew hates the Gen 3 pajero with a passion. The earlier versions of the Gen 3 were as good as Landcruiser!!!
@@Pmooli - mine is a Gen 4, 2 things annoy me;
1) the UK version didn't get the rear locker
2) the rear overhang is too big
I test drove the INEOS in the summer, bit of off road, wade in Spain. The footwell 'footrest' in on the passenger side, and it's now lower than it was in the prototype. It drives worse than the Defender on the road, as you'd imagine and probably could handle more extreme 4x4 conditions. There you go in a nutshell !! But hey, be free to check it out! and remember, that Defender is it's own company, no longer Land Rover
It is a LAND ROVER Defender!
LOL the pretender defender @13:20
Andrew, I 100% agree with you, in my personal observation, I have noticed that the majority of consumers that are now purchasing the new Defender would have never even considered driving the previous (old) Defender range... It just wasn't ever meant to be a posh vehicle, as is perhaps the case now.
Andrew, I like your predictions on the performance of the 2.8 auto in the big 79 LC. I must say from owning a 2.8 auto Hilux for almost 4 years now, I can tell you the fuel efficiency is not great. They are thirsty engines and I can only assume that it will be worse on a LC which is a lot heavier. Standard the Hilux is about 2.2 ton from the factory, a LC79 is closer to 2.8 - 3 ton standard. I only get 8.5kms/L highway cruising unladen. Fully packed for a trip +- 500 - 600kgs above factory weight, I average 6.5 - 7kms/L and that is roughly the factory weight of a LC79.... so you will most likely get the same fuel efficiency if not worse when fully loaded. Oh and another valid thing to mention is that you can't go bigger than the factory tyres otherwise you will never hit top gear in the auto and your fuel range will suffer. I recently went 1 inch bigger (32 inch tyre) than factory and it took off 1.5km/L on my daily driving, I can't imagine if you go to 33 or 35 inch tyres, you will literally half your fuel efficiency. Go watch Ronny Dahl video on the Hilux 2.8 fuel consumption after he modified it. You will get a full view of how thirsty those 2.8 engines are.
Keep up the awesome content. 💪🏻💪🏻
Bigger wheels/tires mean lower rpms at same speed (like longer gearing) which should result in LOWER fuel consumption. Wider tires are less aerodynamic and that can rise the fuel consumption for few percent at higher speeds (above 80 km/h or 50 mph). Rolling resistance of a tire has also some effect(ca 3%) on fuel consumption.
But generally larger wheel diameters results in lower fuel consumption -- your claim is very surprising.
@@ms-jl6dl Never have I ever heard anyone in the world say "my bigger tyres gave my vehicle better fuel consumption" . Bigger diameter or wider tyres = more rolling resistance/more torque required to get vehicle moving = more work needed to be done to achieve the same output, which therefore, results in more fuel being burnt. I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and your theory of bigger wheels = higher gearing = less work needing to be done = fuel savings... was nowhere to be seen and can be mathematically proved false, otherwise all vehicles would come standard from the factory with bigger tyres if your proclaimed benefits were legitimate.
The larger tyre problem won’t bother those that use the 2.8 LC for station tracks and fleet vehicles but I can imagine the cut lunch cowboys that pimp them out from the ARB checklist will be devasted.
Andrew can you please provide me a link for a black dress....seems to me it solves all the overland clothing issues!
Re. the Defender, overlanders would inevitably fit a dual battery system with a controller which would link the batteries, so if the starting battery went weak the vehicle would still be able to draw power from the second battery to start.
Also, many overlanders including myself now fit rooftop solar connected to the starting battery.
I recently went through this myself when the starting battery in my 2009 Defender failed, but it could still be started from the second battery.
Also, many people including myself carry a lithium jump starter pack, which could start tge vehicle.
BTW the V8 is to remain available in the 70 series, according to 4 x 4 Australia.
All correct. V8 is still available but my guess is, it won't be for very long. Toyota is phasing out the engine.
Just activate the boot lock, it's disabled as standard, when you do this it won't activate the start up screen which doubles drain the battery. Added point it would have to be a test to see if the tracker system in the defender also has an idle drain on the system, if so remove the option and just place some apple air tags into the car and wheels, there about 25 dollars each. Also don't mean to point out the obvious but a 100 dollar emergency battery/store jumper would hold power for at least 12 jumps over a 12 months time period and are not much bigger than a hardback book. Am sure there are lot's of CCF's files on any car including the defender that can be deactivated, everyone mod's there 4x4 but seems to forget just how easy it is to mod the CCF files.
Also it's factual wrong to say you need a laptop to jump the defender with a flat battery, you would know this if you had tried it yourself instead of listening to a rumour mill. Andrew I thought you would have learned this after the ABS debacle.
@@terryteesI've scoured the internet looking for instances of this happening. It looks to be a rumor. It's hard to come up with simple solutions when you're constantly focused on the problems.
I’m at 37,000 miles on my 2020 Defender, several trips from San Diego to Montana, and into the Canadian wilderness without a single issue whatsoever. I’m grateful that my rig has been so incredibly reliable, even in temperatures-40F for 3 straight days…. I feel like Andrew’s criticisms of the Defender while accurate to his standards, (if you’re trying to develop a rig that can go into the inner stratospheres of earth) into places like the Australian Outback, or Africa… places that our ancestors thankfully abandoned, or our species would’ve gone extinct like 99% of every living thing that has ever lived on this planet. It’s absurd to expect that an auto manufacture should mass produce a vehicle off the line designed for that purpose. The fact is for every day life in the mountain states of North America, the Defender is more than capable of helping you joyfully inhabit your place in the world.
Thank you….. nice
Definitely taking a backwards step getting the 2.8 if you want auto just bite the bullet and get a auto conversion for your current troopy i get its a big expense but will have the best touring rig
So the motto still applies. It has always been “a Land Rover to get you in, a Toyota to get you out”. Only the reasons have changed.
I have a Grenadier that I’m happy to lend to you.
I live in Padbury WA.
Let’s talk.
Thanks for replying Luke. I can't make my email address public, but could you send me your details here: www.4xoverland.com/contact-us
I want a Grenadier very badly. Here in the US
Your new Troopy will drive just like a New Prado, end of story.
The Prado is a very capable vehicle!
But when a Troopy is built up, it's far heavier than a Prado.
@4xoverland Far heavier?
Keep in mind, the Prado was built on a 70 originally.
I think a bit of reorganisation and less unnecessary shit. You'd be fine.
I have the 2.8L diesel prado a new one with the latest engine. It is very capable, you will not be disappointed in your new 70 series, as far as the engine and transmission is concerned
Very few manufacturers are making vehicles that are designed first and foremost with offroad issues in mind. Most are street vehicles that then have offroading stuff added on. Those offroading things might be quite good, but there are lots of things that are not visible that may not be well thought out. Jeep Wranglers and Gladiators are two of the few left designed specifically for offroad. So Jeeps are easily modifiable and built expressly with the idea that they will be modded, breathers for the diffs either have a plug (rear) and pretty high (front) that you can easily make even higher, the alternator is up high so it won’t be constantly submerged in water crossings, everything on the underside is up high above the body rails, transfer case is still mechanical (a guy I know actually had his cable break in 4lo but was able to fix it to get to 2hi at end of trail), parking brake is mechanical, on auto trans models trans cable can be accessed via a little cover in front of shifter manually get it out of park, it can be flat towed, no turbos to break, not even a cable to open the hood to break, buttons for everything on the dash and also ability to do through touchscreen if you want, hard-drive Nav system if you get it so you have nav even if no internet with breadcrumbs feature. There are probably more I am forgetting right now. I offroaded a modded LR4 as my last veh. Really loved it and it was a bit of a mid life crisis/ nostalgia purchase as the original Disco and Disco 2 is the LR that fired my imagination as a yute, and now that I could afford it I went for it, but man it had a lot of electronics and by the end I wanted to get back to a more manual and mechanical offroader. In addition to reliability (I was getting worried as it was getting older of a failure while in the boonies) I was missing the ability to do the offroading myself instead of being a passive passenger to a computer brain. And in the US any no red light town mechanic can work on a Jeep and if you break down on a trail chances are higher someone out there passing by might have the spare part you need or also be able to fix it. Now out will come all the brand fanboys who will shout about reliability and tell lots of anecdotal tales but I will say a few things in response- first, if you legit wheel you know that any veh can break and we are all just playing the odds, second, reliability and toughness are two different things- I have seen far more IFS vehs (and yes that is Toyotas too) with snapped CVs or other issues (ahem alternator) broken down on trails. Third, there are a shit-ton of old Jeeps running around out there that have not led soft lives- you just can’t tell at first glance because they all look the same. Fourth- not many other 4x4s where you can take it all off and really get out there with the outdoors while offroading. And lastly- still the best offroader is the one you own- don’t worry about what “is best” or the newest thing, wheel what ya got and enjoy it- your money is probably better spent modding what ya got for how ya wheel or overland and fixing what ya break than buying new. End of the day, we’re all out there trying to capture the same experience and facing the same challenges, and I’ll waive to anyone I see with the same mentality- it ain’t a Jeep thing, it’s an offroader thing. 🤙
Good points about the Toyota 2.8, 4cyl v 4.5, v8. Here in the UK I am looking forward to the 2024 70 series. Sadly we are restricted by emission rules that the 2.8 engine family meets. I look forward to your comparison. The 70 series will not arrive in UK until spring 2024 at least.
I don’t think we are getting the new 70 series in the UK. We are only getting the new 250 or “Prado”.
I appreciate that you took the time to give yourself a backlight for these shots.
I appreciate that you took the time to notice.
Andrew, I've asked this to some other people, no answer yet.
Can the Ineos be put in neutral to tow it if the engine is not running? Quite often I come across across BMW vehicles with that shifter and to put them into neutral, you have to pull off a cover underneath and screw up a bolt with an Allen key to release the parking pawl.
I hope the Ineos isn't this complicated, like hopefully it's got a neutral position in the transfer case.
This just reaffirms to me to never let go of my puma 90 ever!
hold onto it!
Just saw 2 x new Defenders in Savuti - very deep soft sand and in October very hot - towing offroad trailers without any hassles and I was very impressed how easy it managed the sand - even in the campsite, where I had to use Low range on my Td5 and gameviewer Cruisers from lodges battled as well!! I am not a fan of the new Defender ( but a HUGE Tdi, Td5 fan) but was impressed by it's performance towing heavy Bushlapa trailers- so I dissagree with Andrew, but then, he is and always been a Toyota fan
Disagree with what? I said they are excellent performers in many ways. Did you not hear that? I said it several times. But when they have a fault, even a minor one, it could leave then stranded. This is a fact. It's built into the design and not my opinion. And with your Td5, you'll be smiling all the way home.
Gorgeous example how to criticise in a perfectly way, to explain also what and why it is all about if you do it with full passion 🤌
Exactly. Paper weight!! Strand💥💥😳👌💯
Can you review the Tank 300? Looks like it has good bones.
Chinese vehicles don’t cut it with ASW, doesn’t matter how good they are
@@michaelhermans4753 where do you think all of the components for almost all cars are made? China. Even BMWs are built there there.
In the area I live there are many current model defenders driving round, what I’m shocked about is how many have headlight out driving with only one light working… already… what the?!?
Headlight failure is common on the premium LED option. Supposed to have been fixed now, but took LR about two years to introduce a better part.
Isn’t an alternative solution to bring a second battery on your adventure in your Defender?
Possibly your best vid yet. Love the pantry. In fact its how we live with our bottle-O at home as we have an orchard etc. your comments re the defender (im not too sure what you could defend, not even your pride but a nice Polo field car). 2.8. Well ive stopped buying the 70s and bought a hikux to see if i can live with it. It does not deliver its KW or Torque the same way the v8 does. Even tho on paper they produce roughly the same. The SR is great in that it doesnt beep or gong or take control of the steering (you have to deliberately turn that crap on)… So im gunna watch others “go first” re the 70. Intruely hope this isnt the end of the product like the patrol 3.0
Nice Defender went past at 13:20 🙂
Have you learned nothing. Lol.
Well spotted. Too funny.
lnteresting video and comments. l've had the old Defender and now have the new Defender in base "Commercial" specification. l had a Grenadier on order and test drove it. I've also got a 2020 Jimny.
l'll ignore his comments about the new Defender because he clearly just doesn't like it.
The Grenadier is fabulous but it's just too expensive. When l configured mine it was £50,000 and then it went up to £65,000. As it's not a Commercial Vehicle l can't get the tax back like l can on the Defender, which makes it effectively £25,000 more (than a Defender)
The Defender is very good off road, it may have limits but they are well beyond what 99% of owners will ever do with them.
Mine does go off road in my work.
The old Defender is perfect for Overlanding as it's designed primarily for that purpose.
Which one would l take across Africa? None of the above. l would take our 2020 Jimny, which in my opinion is what Land Rover should have done with the old Defender
lt's unstoppable off road and 100% reliable.
The only issue is, it's a bit small. 25% larger and it would be an absolute world beater.
Great to see you again Andrew. Being a True Land Rover Defender owner with my 1987 110 ex MoD in Scotland. I love your assessment on the “Pretender”. For sure a city car for posers 😂👍 take care my good man.
I had a LC90 with the old 3 litre turbo diesel engine and automatic gear box. The turbo worked already at very low RPM, and the auto gear box was perfectly adjusted to this engine. It was a wonderful car off road, with the right amount of torque at low RPMs. Now I have a LC150 which is totally different. It has the same 3 litre diesel engine, but now with the common rail injection system, a turbo with an immense turbo lag (no noticeable turbo boost until about 2500 RPM) and lots of exhaust cleaning filters and so on. Much more horsepower and torque than the old LC90 - but: the power is not there, when you need it off road: at low RPM. I can´t really understand why Toyota did this. And reducing the 3 litre diesel engine to a 2,8 did certainly not these things better.
You’re wrong regarding the 4 cylinder off road. I’ve done a lot of desert crossings and Vic High Country travels with a V8 cruiser ute. In stock trim, they are gutless and require careful gear selection on approach to obstacles. Last year we crossed the Simpson in a 100% stock standard straight off the showroom Hilux with no accessories at all. We were astounded at how superior an automatic transmission was in the desert. That engine and transmission will improve the 79 a lot. However, I find that in pretty much all 4wd situations, it’s better to use the auto in manual mode so you have instant throttle response and aren’t waiting for a gear change. Engine braking is reasonable too, even on steep high country descents, with DAC only needed for the steepest of sections. I think you’ll be impressed.
Dwight Schrute of the 4X4 world here loves digging the hole deeper with OEM's. Also loves making mountains out of molehills in a struggle for relevance. If I was Ineos I wouldn't lose any sleep.
Will Toyota not use a. bigger turbo to compensate for the lower power and torque of the 2.8 engine? When it comes to the automatic gearbox I think they will likely use ratios more suited for off roading and towing rather than speed and on-road performance as in the Fortuner and Hill.
The interesting factor that everyone hasn’t covered in the conversation on the LC 2.8 with auto is that the box is an 8 speed. Hopefully it works. Also re the 200 comments, were not all grey nomads🤫
I am led to believe the 2024 update 70 Series auto will be the carry over 6 speed, same as what's in the current Hilux.
Sadly, it is not going to be equipped with the new 8 speed auto ala the upcoming 250 Series next year.
Andrew, INEOS hesitation is understandable. With less sensationalised subjectivity perhaps more 4wd manufacturers would be willing to loan their vehicles; although that maybe counter to getting views. For those reading this comment have a look at L2SFBC Robert Pepper comparison between Grenadier, Defender, Patrol and LC300 for an objective analysis. ASPW I appreciate your expeditions and story telling. But on some of these reviews perhaps some more objectivity.
Agreed Robert Pepper's reviews are at Technical Report level in objectivity and setting test protocols.
Having recently driven a Grenadier , I found the dynamics to be like an early Landcruiser 100 with live axles . I'm use to the engine/ZF in X5 . It's shortcomings ( alterable or not ) are already coming to light on Aussie TH-cam clips . Will it come through in sales or die out here , I don't know .........
After having a 2014 3.0 SR5 auto hilux and a 2018 2.8 SR5 auto. Both stock tyres and no tune. Both decked out the same for touring including trips of the Tanami desert and grand central hwy. The 3.0 was average 2.0 ltr per 100 better.
But towing thats a different story, the less torque of the 3.0 made towing a fatiguing chore. I dreaed towing with it. the 2.8 breezes towing in. My 79 series smashes towing out of the park in all aspects compared to hiluxs.
5:24 Here in the US we call those type of poser cars “Mall Crawlers”
Have you looked into tuning the automatic transmission?
honestly, i find it fascinating that people obsess over what car is "the best" when if you look through history specifically in aus, people were doing massive trips in wagons that just had slightly bigger tyres, or the OLD 4wd with the fat tyres
they just made it work, nowadays people think they need all the bits and bobs but really they're just quality of life upgrades
as long as you have a shovel and there are some sticks around, bar a roll over or drowning, you can recover yourself
obviously then the only thing that matters is keeping the car running which does lend itsself to simplicity and protection but. anyway, people took VW beetles onto the beach back in the day
any all wheel drive vehicle is more capable than that let alone a dedicated 4wd
Thanks for the great content. Last time I looked, the Grenadier didn't seem to have a great payload. It seemed to have a higher TARE than the G-Wagen 461, itself not light. Makes me wonder how serious Ineos are. I'm open to correction, of course
Well, it's not surprising to me that the Grenadier is heavier than a W461. It has airbags, an ad Blue tank and the facilities to process that fluid, is bigger, has a heavier gearbox (1 additional gear) and creature comforts the W461 never had.
If you compare it with a W463 (even the pre 2018 model) it still is heavier but also still bigger.
The given payload is higher than on both W461 and W63 to my knowledge.
(One could also think that they made things beefier as they have less experience and went the safe way for longevity. The guys in Graz have over 40 years of experience, and when someone comes and says make our stuff outlast the G parts, they will make it do so.)
good points, although the same guys in Graz did the chassis
@@hintersland7262 Yes, but they work to the requirements each company gives them. Hence my example with what i could imagine Ineos giving as one requirement: "Make the parts outlive the parts on a G". Not sure if that was a real requirement, but it would explain parts of the weight difference pretty good.
Andrew I’m in SA and if you can’t get an ineos in WA you can grab mine if that helps at all.
Andrew, I wonder what you think about petrol or diesel 70 series of 90's. I can drive it my petrol from 500 to 4000 rpm easy with tons of torque. Is it a better idea to get a very cheap vehicle travel in the wild "primitively"? I would love to see you take a trip in an old car like that and do an historical review of trucks that came along.
All these trucks would be a really good option, if , and it's a Big IF, they would just take notes from Toyota, and apply it to their vehicles. But they, Don't, and they Won't. So, just like Land Rover, just like Ioenos will always be issues of reliability, which should be above all else the #1 priority, especially for the cost of most us them. Andrew, if I was a car company, I would only give you a car, if I had Full Confidence in it like I do a Toyota Land Cruisers, because the one thing I know(and Expect) is an Honest, Full Test review with the the Good, Bad, and the Ugly. But, then again I'd call you during the dream, ideology, methodology, development, build, and the testing of course. You have a ton of wisdom in the overland, especially vehicles, and like you I have found what works, and is the Best, and when you drive/own a TLC, it makes it really hard to drive anything else, if you rely on it as a tool. Thos others are cool, cute toys to play with, if you have that much Time and money. You do good work! When are you and Paul doing a 200 series build?
"The new Defender is even worst than i tough" haha i love Andrew. You need STARLINK HAHAHHAHA.....oh boy....
Unfortunately, chances are that this is just another hear-say Defender rumor circulated by Andrew - not rooted in any kind of facts. Just like his famous Defender ABS rant..
@@scandinavia6271Of course it is, he’s been proved wrong on many of his deranged rants regarding the defender. Does he expect a manufacturer to mass produce a fully jacked up vehicle to cross deserts, mountains etc for maybe 1% of so called “hardcore off roaders” with no tech on it??