I think it should depend one what species is going up against what. Like, having a Giga overpower a sauropod with similar weight, but struggling against more armored herbivores like Anky or Trike, whereas a Rex would excel in the opposite matchup.
I totally agree. I think a bloodlust buff would do wonders for this game personally for carnivores to have. If they are hungry and facing a larger group of herbis not in their group, they gain a damage, health, or bleed buff to encourage players to go for risky plays against herds. IMO, the Isle just lacks incentive mechanics. The diet system was a good start but it's not nearly enough.
@@AeneasReborn extremely hard 1v1, but the reality is tyrannosaurus rex likely hunted in pairs and we know they went after trikes pretty often. Its like a lion vs a cape buffalo, not a 1v1 matchup but 4 lions vs 4 buffalo would be more favorable for the lions than the buffalo since lions dont get in each other's way or risk hurting each other. The same thing applies to The Isle legacy with the giga vs almost anything, giga had problems with a rex 1v1 but gigas benefit more from numerical superiority than rexes since rexes risk breaking each other's legs but gigas already can take a bite from a giga just fine. Rexes cant risk biting each other since that essentially guarantees a loss so they have to social distance, gigas dont have to worry since they take bleed well. Gigas are actually quite op in legacy since rex is their only bad matchup and even then a giga duo can take on 3 or 4 rexes with enough luck and skill, the giga cant risk getting bitten tho so it causes very long fights that rex players dont like.
Depends on what your idea of realism is, because on offical servers realism counts as tenos and pachys actively hunting carnivores because they can. That isn't realistic, they are doing it because it's fun, it's a sport not a survival thing. You can only get so "real" before it gets boring, and vice versa for being too fun
@@dr.emmettbrown9359 there are also realism servers that are very real which can be fun too. It’s up to the individuals idea of fun that’s why there are a variety of servers to choose from
People need more things to do other than killing players. I would focus more on breeding and nesting. A breeding system where offspring get slightly better stats depending on their parents genetics and diet. If you combine this with a guild system you give groups of players long term goals. Giving them the opportunity to easily nest in their friends or other people in general. And slowly improve their genetics over multiple generations. Give them the opportunity to sniff out suitable partners looking for the right genetics to breed with. Allow them to mark territory and sniff this out. Nests should also be used for shelter and storing food for some species. Not just for laying eggs. Some {mostly smaller} species should be able to build nest and borrows they can hide in. Or introduce these places already existing within a new map. A place where larger predators can't go. But that they might camp to see if they can grab something coming out. A introduction of a sleep mechanic can also make nests more important. And gives people something else to worry about "where can i safely sleep?" Eggs should also be a food source and on the diet for some animals. Species should also have different numbers of offspring. This can also help to adjust group size. Where some smaller species might only be able to hatch one egg every 4 hours. While others can hatch 6 every hour for example. Adjust the incubation time depending on the species. Make some species more dependent on their parents than others. This together will form some type of dating and parenting sim within a survival game. We also need a new map. Map design is bad for this game. A better map will solve half the problems we have.
two sides/methods of hunting in general, and that is AMBUSH and PURSUIT. LOTS of things use ambush, like frogs, predatory fish, bugs(praying manits n stuff) crocodiles, cats n more. MANY use pursuit, there are different kinds of pursuit but that aint too important. Beetles(run relatively fast compared to their prey, which is slugs and insects smaller than them that have less stride), wolves, african dogs, humans, tuna, dolphins, etc. Well actually we humans do both. We either like to stalk and trot like a legacy giga, or sit in a blind or set a trap like an ambush. Ambush works when prey doesn't know you are there or is unsure of where, when or how you'll strike. Croc is good example. African animals KNOW crocs be in the water, but they don't know where it exactly is. Pursuit is either running FASTER, or LONGER. Either way works. Cheeta is an example of faster, and wolves/humans are good examples of longer/endurance running. Because there is a "meta", and people like to hack n cheat or know ALL the good spots, it becomes REALLY hard for an ambush predator to successfully "pull a jimmy" and kill one. There's also the fact that these are isle players, and are FAMOUS for impatience(but I do understand the wait for updates is pretty mid), so they refuse to wait around when they can pick something more fun and fast. And what do you know, carno, utah, teno, troodon, galli and ptera are all fast. No need to potentially have an unlucky streak of missed attacks or prey recognizing you before you can even attack(isle meta players going into impossible to ambush spots), when you can spawn in, and use speed, power and numbers to simple kill anything that you see on sight, which is way more fun and feel-good than waiting. Idk, might be wrong....
@@TheCriticalCarcharodon tru, MOST players are as simple-minded as herbivores, only some are truly skilled. Just like in real life WTF!!!!! (few top carnivores in a food pyramid of herbivores and whatnot)
I feel like the pack/herd size difference is a very interesting aspect, as it completely changes the dynamic of a fight. Personally, I feel like herbivores and carnivores should be around the same strength, which keeps the combat balanced, though it becomes more dependent upon strategy for both herbis and carnis. Let apexes be apexes and fight each other 1 to 1, but keep the variety of interactions that occur for those further down the roster. I've always had the most fun being a mid-smaller tier and relying heavily upon ambushing to take others by surprise, but I know some others don't feel the same.
I believe Perk system is one of upcoming things that help with Carni-Herbi balance, but also Elder Stage and having aging from birth to death. Stego is likely still very strong creature in game (new patch has not been on long enough for enough information), their herds would be fatal to poke at when there is 3 or more 100% adults. But when Elder stage comes they can become more powerful, however with dying to old age we can start to see more corpses on fields and more variation on creatures ages. Instead of having full grown herds we start to see herds with far larger age difference and with need for Migration, Carnivores would target weakest parts of herds and wait until herds need to move. This does, however rise a question: Should Carnivores have slower Hunger and Diet decay so they could survive longer without need to feed? As this would make their playstyle more passive, something we don't want too much to apply. Another thing that could help Carnivores is Legacy Gore piles. At moment any Carnivore can eat all flesh from bodies, leaving bones behind. If we add Legacy system where large Carnivores can't get all meat out and those bits are left for smaller and/or younger Carni players. This could help juvie stage players to survive to adults and this way help Carni numbers if Herbies are bit stronger in combat. We can but wait until next year likely to see how this upcoming balance works with Perks and Elder Stage.
Depends on what herbivores and carnivores are being used. A sauropod can obviously top any theropod, unless the sauropod in question is a nigersaurus or a juvenile of another species. But there is no universe where a microceratus is beating a velociraptor, for instance.
This is a really good idea. It's a great incentive for players to act within the ecosphere and could provide tangible rewards. For example, if a player is fully grown and nests 3 times, they could unlock "ancient" or something which allows for an extra 5-10% size growth.
Some of these comments are absolutely braindead takes. Herbivores need to be at LEAST slightly stronger than carnivores or else most of the playerbase doesn’t play them. Yes, I know “oh, but I play (x) dinosaur” but that’s you, the exception. The average person is going to gun for a big stupid apex like T-Rex. Strong herbivores should exist to punish careless carnivore players. There should be an equality between them. One of the other top comments also has a pretty good point about species-based matchups.
Na herbies shouldnt be stronger is very lame weak ass herbie player will play them only for the stat and pretend to be cool what you need is more rewards of playing them the isle need some currency real bad is like in world of warcraft no ones likes to play the lame Alliance so they give more rewards to the Alliance player that is balance and motivation to play the under played faction
IKR I couldn't believe they did that, same with taking away pachy's stun... like if you wanna shorten the stun sure, but now pachies are gonna be bulldozed by everything. It's always the carno mains weeping constantly bc they lost one fight. Pachy's whole personality is that it can bully things, who is gonna want to play it now?? The isle does herbivores dirty.... except stego yet, queen stego.
@@dom9300For me 150 damage with the tail slam is too low, if it would have to be nerfed I would say make it do at least 200 damage, that's 50 damage less than the original tail slam
Herbis should be more defensive based and Carnivors offence based, where herbis in game dominate with strength, and defensive play styles where carnis more ability, speed and a more rushed offensive play style
@@cayde-6753 one of the mods there (Superlunary) is a trigger-happy bitch, whenever i was in balance discussion she’d butt in to every conversation telling people to calm down when everyone was being civil, a bored retard mod with nothing better to do than look for conflict to “moderate”. I got banned for saying “I can’t believe someone could write a suggestion that bad and post it” about some body-down debuff suggestion by someone that probably spends all their game time in a realism server lol. The bitch was waiting for the slightest bs to ban me over. Mainly i was just bummed because i can no longer screenshot hilariously bad feedback to add to my archive
I hope when perks are added it’s more choice base where the decision you make in where you decide to invest your perks in will determine how strong certain attributes of your Dino are. Like I think if you are given a choice between two or three paths of perks so that way you have different builds or levels of strength speed health and defense that cater to a certain persons play style like a defense carno or stronger pachy or even beefier stego with a larger health pool. While still being able to upgrade other stats there can be pros and cons to each stat you increase and thus creating unique experiences for each player.
When you talk about herbivores being stronger in real life you are talking about a situations that have herbivores that are much bigger than their predators, it's not always the case though, sure it makes perfect sense for a herbivore to be stronger overall if it's bigger than the carnivore it has to deal with, it's not always the case though so it shouldn't be "herbivores should be stronger than carnivores" or othe other way around, it should be based on species. Like sure a Giga or a Rex should be able to take on multiple Paras alone and still come out on top but they should also lose the upper hand if they are fighting something above their weight class like a Shant even if it's a 2v1 against a single Shant. Though a lot of the times this also depends on player skill aswell.
@@marcellus_h7930 Honestly I never played PoT, I feel like it's just a better version of The Isle legacy and I'm not gonna pay for that when I can play evrima
@@mikeoxsmal69 from what I have seen in videos it looks like PoT's modders actually do a better job than it's devs overall, I remember seeing an Acro mod that looked awesome, though I'm not sure if that mod is out yet, I don't play PoT and I don't plan on ever buying it
I think each species should be built to either hunt or defend from specific species but be weak to other specific species. Example carno is very good against teno but a cerato is very weak to Teno.
Also somthing that not a lot of people consider is that no matter how realistic the devs want to make the game, they are combining the dinosaurs from different time periods in which never would have fought or even seen eachother. Trex lived along side trike and anky but wouldn’t know how to handle fighting a stego so you can just pin one side more powerful than the other, but it’s hard since it’s a game and balance should be decent
I think the Rex would be smart enough to see/realise that the most dangerous part is at the end of the tail (similar to ankylosaurus). But i know what you mean.
I believe it should be based on creature tier so mid tires in a 1v1 would be somewhat evenly matched but once there is a number difference the balance flips
All I can say, is that for a game seeking "realism" they're not doing a good job. On average, carnivores and herbivores of similar size classes in real life we tend to see a very severe favor toward the herbivore side of things. It's a reason why most species of carnivores who hunt prey items similar in size tend to see less success. Because herbivores are some of the most aggressive and dangerously equipped species out there due to the pressure of being hunted. There is, however, a LOT of factors that should go into this for sake of balance. Obviously since carnivores need to eat and be allowed to actually enjoy the game, I think similar sizes of specific classes should have similar strong and weak points that when played right, could make or break the situation in combat. However, in a group hunting a herd situation, that should also depend heavily on the servers. Which there are so many body down rule servers, I feel those make the best sense to stick to for a more "even" experience as honestly on official, there's so much excessive toxicity, there's no point ever considering balance within official servers.
Spent a few days as Galli without having to deal with predation. Ran this galli for about 4 days consisting of ; mango, explore, water, mango, explore, water. It was the most agonizingly boring gameplay loop. When I asked a buncha twitch streamers and their chat what I should do next they said; "go kick some babies", my heart sank and I went back to playing Dienosuchus
I think a big thing you raised that's worth noting is the issues for lower skill carnivore players if you remove the AI. This isn't a problem - its actually good thing. In general, for a more balanced environment to exist, you need more herbivores than carnivores, if not you get the constant deathmatch that typically goes on officials in Isle. The optimal way to balance is to design herbivores as really reliable, easy to get into animals, but ultimately design their toolkit so that their skill plateaus at a certain point. By contrast, you make carnivores have a harder time with baseline surviving but give them really good tools for skill expression, which makes them broadly inaccessible to less experienced players (for larger carnivores, anyways) who end up going for ones with safety-nets, such as a Ceratosaurus' scavenging or a Deinosuchus' fishing, with an animal like Omniraptor or Carnotaurus not really being for a 'bad' player. A key area we can look at, off the Isle's current mechanics, is locational damage, to pair with this broad setup that DOES manage to please both sides of the realism argument and still manage to offer very different gameplay between carnivores and herbivores. Carnivores should have, by and large, less extreme locational multipliers than herbivores, both in reduction (tail, legs) & weak point (head, neck). As such, you can give an animal like Tenontosaurus more health and damage than Ceratosaurus, with Tenontosaurus taking very little damage to the tail but an exceptionally high amount to the head. By contrast, Ceratosaurus is the more agile animal and would not take noticeably more damage on a headshot. This serves a few key purposes; 1. With AI removed, any Carnivore you are liable to see is immediately someone you have to assume knows what they are doing. They are, put simply, skilled. If it's managing to secure kills consistently to stay alive, its using the game's mechanics to their fullest and is managing to overcome a statistical disadvantage. This means the carnivore player who's made it that far can be rewarded and can be intimidating out the gate. 2. With AI removed and carnivores having less extreme locational multipliers, combat between rival carnivores becomes much riskier as even with skilled play, the likelyhood of sustaining a lot of injury increases and the fight, by and large, would end up longer than managing to ambush a herbivore and strike at its weak spot. Fighting for food becomes this tense exchange instead of simply walking off to eat a deer. 3. With AI removed and herbivores statistically advantaged for lower-skill play, they end up naturally encompassing a larger portion of the playerbase. This avails their diets, and any other benefits from hunting them, to carnivores as an abundant, albeit difficult, food supply. It's ultimately a win-win setup. Herbivores attract a large, casual and more passive playerbase while carnivores end up attracting aggressive competitive players. Both factions stay true to their purpose and both factions are empowered. Herbivores have the tools to defend themselves and yet have critical weaknesses they need to be mindful of. Carnivores feel good for managing to effectively exploit those weaknesses. I would say a necessary requirement for the carnivores would be for them to get a bit more generous healing than herbivores, since to become good at the game, you will need to practice. Perhaps nesting can be given greater value to dinosaurs by allowing hatchlings to 'play fight' with their siblings, dealing no bleed and significantly reduced damage to each other, to get a hang of their character's combat in a relatively safe setting.
I agree but I don't think AI should be completely removed, just rarer and/or much harder to catch. You should have to sneak up on a deer to kill it, or else it sprints off at Mach 5 and gets away from everything except Carnotaurus for example. Also, I don't like the idea of punishing carnivores by removing all the AI because how the hell is a juvi raptor, let alone a juvi rex supposed to survive then aside from sibling cannibalism & unreliable scavenging? What if every player on the server is an adult apex herbivore? There is no skill expression when the matchup is completely one sided because the baby carnis can't even make it to adult. I think you'll run into a separate issue where there's no adult carnivores simply because there is nothing for them to eat.
@@justmonika2345 spoiler alert, long time players remember the game before any AI existed. Carnivores had the same problem and found solutions, hunting juveniles and scavenging. It really isn't unreliable, just learn the map and go to where you will find casualties. Progression was even more brutal in this respect and a far longer process than any growth time. People still managed. They just didn't manage if they were bad.
I absolutely love your ideas. I think with all of what you said, and an increased player capacity, there really is no need for AI. And your balancing suggestions seem to work very well in my head. With more people playing herbivores, food will be relatively abundant once you reach adulthood. And before reaching adulthood, there will still be plenty of juvies and definitely some good places to scavenge. As a carnivore main, I think decreasing the number of carnivores is a great idea. It feels rather strange to mostly only fight other carnivores. I'd much rather have the more immersive experience of hunting herbivores. And with making herbivores a more casual thing, so many more people will play them. Basically, your suggestions just completely fix The Isle's ecosystem haha.
This was fascinating to read, and I agree with every point, maybe so Juvies can survive more easily, have a system close to Legacy where an extremly loud AI will spawn close to a very hungry player, and make AI stop spawning after a certain point of growth, that way it’s a lot more easy to reach adulthood while keeping all the systems you gave
I have noticed that hervovires dont have enought stam to escape if a predator sees you, so the game forces you to fight for your life. The problem is that hervivores are too weak to defend themsrlves. I usually play survival, not death match like most of the people do in the game.
I’ve seen a couple people say “Ecosystems need more powerful herbivores” This is not true at all, Look at NA, SA, Asia, Australia, And some others, Even then look at the specific countries, A grizzly bear is stronger and can kill just about everything in America, Same with Canada, In Mexico now they have Jaguars so those would be the most powerful, I don’t list Africa due to Cape buffalo and hippos but even then they still die to carnivores commonly. Carnivores need to have strengths OVER herbivores to survive, That’s why they usually choose a weaker target, So they can survive the hunt, In legacy the reason playing herbivores still was viable was due to herds, And carnivores never complained either, It was fun and arguably more realistic that a tyrannosaurus would kill just about everything in the roster, It would IRL to, With triceratops being the only one(Not including pue) That could kill it irl, Diablo was absolutely incredible for a mid tier, Arguably the best one, The problems show up when an herbivore is able to beat carnivores by itself a good chunk to most of the time, Why? Because it can still join a herd, And in something like path herds make you WAYYY stronger than in the isle, Thats why carnivores should be, At top level, A bit stronger than herbivores
I just want equal balance, I want the herbivores to have fair match ups against their carnivore counter parts, For example I want a Rex and a Trike to be equal and not one sided. I just get so sick of seeing herbivores being made useless, powerless, defenseless walking meat sacks for carnivores, like that shouldn't be the case because herbivores were just as deadly as carnivores
@@The_cat_father well nothing really lol. I don't need to state the obvious and say that the Isle has a notorious track record for bad balancing and poor decisions they make for there game
@@AlanAcosta-hy9zv yep and sadly that carnivore bias often makes it in to the animal survival genre including the isle where in legacy a trike is an easy kill for a giga or rex, hopefully evrima does better
Personally I think I’m a one on one they should each be about the same with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. Saying that I think that they should also be made to complement each other in a way like Rex and trike or allo and stego sorta thing. You can have a Dino be able to fight more than one Dino if they’re designed that way. However, if you have an allo going up against a trike which is a higher tier than the allo is going to be in a bit of trouble. So really it should depend on the Dino itself and what they’re ment to take on that should give players an idea of difficult. The only real time I think herbs should be stronger than carnivores is when it comes to herds. That’s where I think the real Strength of herbivores should come from.
yes carnis and herbis should be better against specific dinos and bad against others, but it think for herbis to be stronger when in herds then herbis alone should be weaker than the carnis bc that would encourage players to be in herds
@@juicy8019 alone I think it depends on what the Dino is and what it’s going up against and plays it smart. However, yes i think if your going up against a pack of something that is designed to go up against you 9/10 times its more likely you’ll lose. While being in a herd increases your chance of surviving greatly.
If we're going off reality, then yes, herbivores are usually far stronger. Whilst a tiger for instance is incredibly powerful, its nothing compared to a Gaur. The same can be said for animals like buffalo, wild boar and bison. Prey animals are usually either fast, or tough. You have some middle ground like smaller bovids, larger antelope, deer, and horses. But in terms of blunt damage, they still generally outclass predators. In a video game sense however, this would probably be unbalanced. Most hunts cant fail in a game where that usually means the death of the predator. So, whilst I think for instance most bulky herbivores should be able to take more damage than their predators in the same weight class, carnivores could benefits from doing more damage to balance things out. This isnt too unrealistic either, given that whilst prey animals often can do more harm with attacking any part of the body, the more precise nature of predators allows them to end hunts rapidly. It'd also be good if we saw different predators do better damage against different species. For instance Gigas could do more damage to Sauropods, whilst Rex could do more damage to armoured prey like ankylosaurs and ceratopsids. To reiforce this, sauropods could be weaker to bleed, but have a lot of health, whilst anks and ceratopsids could be weaker to bone breakaged, but have more armour. Finally, herbs and carns should be able to smell one another (bathing in mud or water could mask their sent). It would be really good if one day we see regional damage. So for instance, if an Allosaurus bit a Stegosaurus on the back it would do little damage, unable to get a good angle due to the plates and the shear bulk of the animal in that region, whereas it would do much great damage if the Stegosaurus was bit on the head or neck. This would be super interesting to see on ankylosaurs especially. In the same regard, biting Shants on the tail or flanks may do little, but the neck and underside might be weaker. Kinda like in Primal Carnage Extinction .So, herbivores would need some degree of strategy to take down, and predator players who havent perfected this yet would struggle, both acting as balancing and reflecting reality. This might also lessen the effectiveness of super packs, if you couldnt just run at something and bite it over and over again in a huge group. Another way they could make herbs more fun is mating, have some species need to do mating rituals or fights to be able to even mate. Hell, mating rituals could even be a minigame lol.
Power level should be roughly equal, depending on species. A trike for example, should have a 50/50 matchup against a spino or a rex, Justification being that trike herds can be larger, and herbi's are generally easier to play. A "hervivore bias" where herbis are stronger than carnis, Could entirely bring one faction out of play entirely, or reduce it to obscurity. Rexes being unable to hunt herbis due to them being stronger may make rex extremely difficult to maintain as food intake will be absurdly low. And a herbivore dominated meta may reduce isle to a grass eating simulator. of course, this is speculation, but the strongest carni should be on par, or slightly stronger than the strongest herbivore, and herbivores should have a higher pack limit than carnivores to encourage herding.
i would definitely disagree that herbivores “want to fight” lol there’s tons of reasons people play the game and i find that most herbivore players are usually just trying to find a herd for the social aspect and grow a dino to full size without focusing much on pvp
If Herbie Players are only food, nobody plays them. If Carnivores have more success hunting other carnivores, you split the playergroup. If one Dino is just the best, everyone picks that dino. It's not an easy job to accomplish balance between so many different characters to play. A possibility would be either situational advantages, or a quite advanced rock-paper-scissor game (T-Rex is super strong, but Troodons nullify it's advantages with Poison. Troodons are many and have a dangerous bite, but there's a Dino that can bite off pounced animals. The Dino has this advantage, but is no match for a rex for example. Now build a lot of those R-P-S Chains with different kinds of Dinos. Whenever one grows to big in number, it's predators find more food and flourish, which encourages their counters to flourish, which enables the original dino to flourish, eg. Now also include inter-diet systems that balance each other out) That's at least how i think this riddle can be solved...
I think it every thing should have it’s advantages over the other like a stego and carno.Skill being the the factor in which the outcome.The herbs evolved to defend against a certain style of carnivores and should struggle with other kinds like a herb evolved to survive intense bleeding should be hurt more by a crushing carnivores like a T. rex
I think that there is also a tiny road bump that attacking a herd and killing a bunch of them sounds great, food for days, except it rots and wastes a lot of it, bodies may need to last just a little bit longer to justify BIG kills.
In evrima, Stegos are more aggressive than any other dino including cannibal cera's in my opinion. I was stalked, tracked, and hunted by an 4$$hole stego player who must have gotten confused about the fact that they do not NEED to kill yet they find it fun.
I think carnivores should be stronger simply because they need to seek out players to survive. Herbivores have a more consistent way of getting foods and nutrients and can focus more on stealth and strategy. If a predator pulls off an ambush it should usually guarantee a kill if the predator was in a correct weight class for its target. Though if I could have it my way, it would just weight class and group sized based. So like, an apex predator and apex herbivore would be evenly matched in a 1v1. same with medium and small dinos. The differences would be what makes them unique, sort of like how the ceratos anda carnos are in the same weight class but ceratos are weaker by default yet stronger with a corpse and both have outplay potential with their abilities. Dinos meant for a group should always be strong in a pack and weak alone aswell.
I don't play the isle but in general i think the rule of thumb should be to make carnivores weaker then the herbivores of the same tier in a head to head fight, yes carnivores have to kill but a lot of the time they don't actively go after the toughest motherfucker in the ecosystem, and if they do so they will either do it in groups or when the large herbivore is sick, injured or dying and out of desperation, like for example unless in certain cumstances a lion would prefer to hunt a mare zebra over a bull Buffalo, way less effort, way less risk for fatal injuries. Like for example A Tyrannosaurus should try to ambush a triceratops instead of face tanking.
Herbivores should be as strong as carnivores of their same weight/size, that’s the thing, some herbivores can grow larger than carnivores thus making them stronger but that doesn’t mean in a 1vs1 at the same growth/size they need to be stronger. You can not let a giant sauropod grow basically, if it reached adult size then you’ll need multiple pack members to take it down, in real life carnivores also attack juvenile prey since they’re easier to hunt and this shouldn’t change, the bigger an animal the longer it takes to grow, the easier it is to be hunted while not in your peak combat capabilities of adult form, this way even the strongest herbivores go through the target range of most carnivores until they grow, and the bigger their species is the slower their parents so it’s in theory easier to caught them off guard and steal their babies if they nested for example. Herbivore attacks should be slow and mostly defensive, with the exception of ramming or charging based attacks, this way you prevent herbivores from running down and killing carnivores in most situations but makes them formidable defense oriented builds, and even with all this in real life herbivores most of the time don’t really have that many skill or attack capabilities, it’s more their endurance and sheer physical superiority because of their size what makes them scary but not their accuracy or stealth like some carnivores. Most carnivores shouldn’t be rewarded for hunting other carnivores, I believe you should get no diets or maybe a debuff since carnivore meat isn’t optimal in real life for many animals, at least apply this to bigger carnivores from carno to the apexes. This could make hunting carnivores a last resort behavior but not reduce the fights for territory or such.
You're thinking logically. The devs don't do that. Another thing that would help is a full roster of dinos that have legitimate preferences along with a higher server count for a more diverse ecosystem.
They shouldnt be fodder but not overly strong either, gotta remember that herbies food doesn't run, doesn't fight back, any of that, they eat their veggies/fruits and go sit in a bush, predators have to actively hunt for their meals so they should have a slight edge over their prey.
I think herds and having the numbers advantage is what herbivores are good for, like Teno vs carno, carnos charges and knockdown their pray in a ambush but has a hard time turning around and to charge, it needs to get to running speed Tenos are defensive with a tail that knocks you down, a kick that does good damage quickly and stuns Dino’s slightly larger then it or it also knocks you down, claws and bites for the smaller guys. It’s even better with its turn speed when standing walking or trotting. Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the Teno and carno are skilled in a 1v1, the fight is in carnos favvor because if a Teno messes up the defense for a moment for the carno to charge or even a bite it will be losing vary quickly because the carno is bigger and does a lot of damage to it despite all the defense for *attacking*. But I’m just going to make it simple, carno is bigger then Teno but Teno is big enough to fight a carno.
Deinosuchus is to squishi, Ceratosaurus too tanky, Stegosaurus too tanky too mobile, Carnos to slow, the rest is good. And give the Pteranodon a diving mechanic, for the air, maybe for the water too. Hopefully theyre gonna include weather changes maybe a dry period or a raining season, where the water level rises and the island changes with it. Animals have so much to offer in survival situations.
Deinosuchus is very tanky, cerato is only really tanky compared to bigger creatures when near a body, stego is very tanky but its speed is mediocre, and carnos are the fastest thing in the game other than galli from what I understand, also ptera can already skim for fish plus its a ptera so shouldnt be in combat much anyways except maybe for stealing babies from nests.
Yes, herbivores should be stronger than carnivores (like, not everyone, not like Galli or Dryo for example) since herbivores are stronger irl too I think we all remember how legacy end up, since carnivores are stronger there
@@TheKingofCoralin legacy Rex and Giga have no problem to kill in 1V1 Trike, although Trike should be the 1 who should have no problem with them, and yet, when Trike would be stronger than Giga and Rex, and you play as Rex or Giga, just go look for easier prey like Maia or Tenonto or steal food from someone, just like irl carnivores, always go for easier food
In IRL herbivores don't go out of the way to wipe anything that moves off the census. We don't need yet another dinosaur survival game that's biased towards herbivores.
@@roguetheoutlander8800 so your saying that giga and Rex shouldn’t be able to hunt a trike? Despite them being the main big 3 apex’s of the isle? They should be encouraged it hunt one another this is a game not real life people don’t want to deal with something so strong they may as well either hunt another thing that isn’t as strong and can’t give a proper fight or just play something that specializes in hunting those specific species
Im a Evrima player, can only speak for Evrima branch. Simple answer no. Long answer: Herbis have the Freedom to evade and hide without fearing to starve. So they shoudnt have this freedom + be stronger then any carnivore in their size. Carnivores have to hunt, beside the "fun side" of hunting they have a lot of competition, in nature it is not unusaul to kill any potential competition. A Year ago it was impossible as Deimo to fight 1vs1 on full grown Stego, it was nearly impossible. Now u can drown them and Stego playerbase stoped harassing the Deimo's. So i come to conclusion the buff to the Deimo's was essential in this situation. Also i think carnivores should always stronger then herbivores in same size. In wich spot u see the newer Omnivores, like the Galli?
AI and corpses imo should still be there for one reason, it makes you able to get food everytime. Imagine you were a lone utah and there was no AI and all the other dinos in the server were stegos, deinos and carnos, how would you even find food, pray for a lone baby?
It's more of an issue with herbs and map layout/terrain in general. No real structures or areas that larger things can't get into/slowed down(we have that, but VERY limited). Rn, its go to hotspot, fuck around, then be done. There is no REAL survival. Herbs can live anywhere, no struggle for edible food like in the real world, and certainly no competition. Plus carnivores every where. I reckon if herbs ate differently, and the map/location of food, water, structures in general were fixed, we'd have a reason to be a small herbivore, because it wont starve to death like a big herbivore, and can do more things. Rn though, ther is nothing for the lil guys, so there will be no ecosystem, just a desert with many carnivores self-sustaining themsleves with so many different carni species eating each other and spawning back in, while any herbivore gameplay is so easy and simple to live or survive that all you need to do is go to an abandoned spot and waste time growing. Yes, diets I know, but it didn't fix much. It is STILL, go to bush eat then hide in bush. If the way herbs handle their eating was improved into something more complex and FUN(DONT FORGET THAT!!!!!!) then people would play herbivore a LOT more, for the challenge of SURVIVAL, not a wait then have fun fighting game. One more thing about small herbs in particular(dryo n hypsie), is that your POV/camera angle is too low to see over the hills or bushes or EVEN THE FUCKING GRASS *cough cough hypsie cough cough*, and althoug you may have better stam or potentially speed, it all is shit when predator spots you way before you realize there even was a dino there in the first place. I liked dryo being able to regen stam faster, and was slower, so as long as you got a head start and a big map, you should be fine, but in reality the REAL "map" is a tiny plains with spots of forests, tons of one-shot death trains and boring avoidant lifestyle to even live. Not very fun.
I prefer a much more complex and nuanced system rather than rock paper scissors. Mostly equal, mostly fair, advantages and disadvantages. I do think strains will completely ruin that diet balance though.
Here’s the problem herbivores don’t need someone lower on there food chain allowing everyone to play the tippy top strongest herbivore and in the case of the isle don’t have to worry about survival and just kill and hunt for fun and it shouldn’t be that way especially when carnivores sometimes if your like me don’t even want to hunt anymore but are forced to (your forced into an unbalanced fight) and that’s why it’s easier to hunt other carnivores as they have to fight you and are not as dangerous to do so and herbivores should be forced to try and survive it’s what makes the game fun but they can just hide in a corner until there a giant and go ruin other peoples fun and carnivores should be able to win a fight with almost everything and herbivores should be able to at least escape they don’t have to win as escaping is winning but also herbivores shouldn’t just be able to leave when they are being beaten or just want to like meh I’m out carnivores need a way to force the fight and not have it be 1 sided and I’m on the carnis side because the herbivores don’t have to try as hard and the community is extremely toxic I was playing as a raptor scavenging and some Teno’s camped the body so I’d starve even tho I was not a threat and there was nothing a could do since one attack would kill me and they were protected on all sides especially since there was two and I go to hunt and there is nothing anywhere until I find Stegos which one shot and can just wait for me to hit them then kill me since I can’t do enough damage not only that but there where like 5 so it’s just kinda dumb how they can own whatever with no repercussions
No a carnivore needs to be able to hunt a lone herbi down if you are playing a prey animal then you are going to get hunted the biggest issue these games have is that herbivores have no reason to compete for food and water there is always an abundance of plants for herbis to share when in real life a lot of herbivores will end up weak from starving when a large pack of bigger herbivores come to a area and begin to compete with others for the food and water meaning there is a constant rotation of herds and migrations which gives medium sized dinosaurs a chance to pick hunts rather than annoying babysitting apex herbis ( also Envirma has stego which can face tank and kill a deino which makes no sense)
I feel like herbivores are strong enough to fend off carnivores, which is why carnivores develop weapons to counter them. Stronger herbivores would only motivate carnivores to evolve and match their chosen prey. In this game, it solely depends on the species.
In most ecosystems carnivores will hunt smaller herbivores or have to work together to take down larger prey which would stomp them in a face to face encounter
Herbivores should be stronger for the simple fact that they should be the vast majority. No other ecosystem survives with a balance of predators 70% and prey 30%. It's always going to be a lot of carnivores because of preference. At least make herbivores not complete pushovers
@@kenshinhimura9387 People act like there are only specific creatures that do that in this game, from what I've seen there have been cases where there are like 6 carnos and plus mixpacks consist of almost all creatures in this game, and again mixpacking and overpacking with herbivores is much more realistic and giving carnivores a reward for hunting them could fix this problem, as Zaguer stated.
these kinds of videos feel like the herbivore bias in dinosaur sim communities has become an even more annoying problem than the carnivore bias, the game needs better combat and movement systems before any of these balancing problems can be addressed.
NO!!! However, herbivors should be way more aggressive than they currenty are. A Herd system with Alphas and Omegas and defending territorys should help alot of problems with the current issues. Predators need to be feared so the Prey has a reason to fight. If the Prey can easily defend or ever slaughter the Predator whos to say which is which? Balance comes to mind along with food web. Each creature serves a function in the ecosystem and has habits like all. Currently players mix pack, mega pack, kos. Its a mess, with more objectives and a real reason not to do such things such as "debuffs" or "strain" on animals would deture people from playing like toddlers in a playground. Though it isnt the fault of the players themselves since doing such things doesnt come with a downside, its the devs that need to step it up. Survival and Procreation is the name of the game.
It depends on the species. People complain about how strong Stegosaurus is but I mean. It just makes sense that being hit by a Stegosaurus' thagomizer, especially in a vulnerable area would either seriously wound or instantly kill an animal. Stegosaurus are Huge and so are their Thagomizers.
People complain that the stego is mostly uncontestable. Not how strong it is. Even the deino can't usually kill a stego, regardless of catching it off guard near the water.
@LupusNovis that seems like that was changed though. I've seen Deinos easily catching stegos and aside from Deinosuchus no other predator in the game Should be able to touch an Adult stegosaurus. They take ages to grow so If you do make it to adult without being killed by a Carno or Raptor pack it's a pretty good reward. The reality is none of these animals aside from deinosuchus are large enough to reliably take down an animal as large as a stego. I mean the smallest animal that will probably have a chance in hell is the Allosaurus
@@Forestguardian you missed my point entirely. People are mad that there's nothing to contest a stego. they keep adding low and mid tier animals that require 8+ in a pack to take on one stego. nothing even comes close to being it's equal. Your statement about deinos is also kinda bogus because it takes at least 3 to kill one steg unless you catch it trying to swim across the river. People want a high tier carnivore that can level the playing field and make it so that stegos can't just do whatever the hell they want. or at least something that can actually combat the thagomizer. i'm sick of seeing 4+ stegs that bully everything because nothing can touch them.
@@Forestguardian You also need to remember they have yet to add the trike. if the stego is this bad, I can't imagine how bullshit trikes are gonna be in evrima
Apexes should be stronger than every other animal. Large animals like Shant, Para, Anky, and others should have to FIGHT and outplay an apex to survive. That’s how it works in predator prey relationships irl. Most predators retreat when prey puts up too much of a fight. Maybe herbie players should quit using excuses and actually use interesting tactics and escape methods rather than trying to fight apexes in open fields. Run into thick dense woods, Rexes and gigas are too big to pursue most things through certain places anyways. Maybe give herbie players kickback tail attacks as an alt attack.
To mane sure the game isnt a chat room if herbivores are stronger than carnis npc dinosaurs would be a good idea. Npc packs of troodon hunting large herbivore players and npc stegos or smth to hunt would be a good example
i think the biggest issue is that on average carnivores are played more often, which i believe is the main reason that carnivores kill carnivores. i believe there needs to be more of an incentive to play as herbivores (what that should be i have no idea)
Tbh the best herbivores are already stronger than the best carnivores. The amount of times I’ve been bullied by pachies when I was just minding my own is annoying.
same, I know people hate when this is brought up but before they nerfed pachys stagger in a 1v1 situation with carno, if they attacked the carno first and got a fracture, the carno was most likely dead at least if the pachy was skilled, as they could just bully it like a punching bag, especially once the carno got a leg fracture or even all 3 fractures, as the carno loses its one and only true advantage which is speed and then again stagger so it really wouldnt be able to bite it either.
People need more things to do other than killing players. I would focus more on breeding and nesting. A breeding system where offspring get slightly better stats depending on their parents genetics and diet. If you combine this with a guild system you give groups of players long term goals. Giving them the opportunity to easily nest in their friends or other people in general. And slowly improve their genetics over multiple generations. Give them the opportunity to sniff out suitable partners looking for the right genetics to breed with. Allow them to mark territory and sniff this out. Nests should also be used for shelter and storing food for some species. Not just for laying eggs. Some {mostly smaller} species should be able to build nest and borrows they can hide in. Or introduce these places already existing within a new map. A place where larger predators can't go. But that they might camp to see if they can grab something coming out. A introduction of a sleep mechanic can also make nests more important. And gives people something else to worry about "where can i safely sleep?" Eggs should also be a food source and on the diet for some animals. Species should also have different numbers of offspring. This can also help to adjust group size. Where some smaller species might only be able to hatch one egg every 4 hours. While others can hatch 6 every hour for example. Adjust the incubation time depending on the species. Make some species more dependent on their parents than others. This together will form some type of dating and parenting sim within a survival game. We also need a new map. Map design is bad for this game. A better map will solve half the problems we have.
In my opinion, Herbivores do need to be stronger than carnivores in order for people to play them more frequently which makes them a better challenge for competitive carnivor players
No me parece mal para que haya un aliciente a coger herbívoros, ya que es un juego y en un juego todo el mundo querría ser un carnívoro si el carnívoro fuera el más fuerte. Y si el carnívoro no es el más fuerte seguiremos queriendo ser carnívoros porque gustan, pero habiendo alicientes en los herbívoros
I think a good idea to resolve this and even other problems in the game’s roster would be to have some type of system so each Dino can have buffs or debuffs depending on the weight and size of the enemy Dino. To explain it better: for example let’s say a Carno gets a damage and even speed buff when facing against an animal smaller than itself, but does less damage when the Dino is bigger, and does normal damage when the Dino is the same size than it. Or let’s say a Giga excels at prey heavier than itself like a Shant, a Duck or even a Pue, but does badly against similar sized animals like a Trike, but a T. Rex does pretty good against similar sized animals but fails against heavier and so on. That way, every player knows what he is good or bad against, and can avoid or choose fights depending on the specific animal they are playing against, instead of just killing everything because it is stronger than everyone else. This system could also help some animals distinguish better from themselves in a PvP situation, because each would be more or less effective against certain types of creatures. I know this system has some flaws, starting with the question of if the Isle could even apply this, or the fact that some matchups could have creatures that cancel each other buffs, but I think a more polished version of this could help make the Isle, and even PoT and BoB, more balanced games
That beginning comment with the carno is literally just the old weight system which was good because a tiny velociraptor should not be dealing full damage against something like a shant or an acro where it would barely be piercing the skin, but a speed buff is retarded. You do not have to change stats in different species pair-ups, if you do not want giga hunting trike, simply give trike high bleed resistance, and if you do not want rex hunting a sauropod, the sauropod should be resistant to fracture but take regular bleed damage, as rex focuses on raw damage while giga is clearly designed to bleed. Giving dinos arbitrary buffs depending on what specific species they are attacking is honestly such a cheap route
The Ai is nowhere near plentiful enough or nutritious enough to sustain adult carnivores and some carnivores only have 1-2 of the ai in there diet which is meant to be hunted when your small and growing up, Me and my friend group always have to migrate around to hunt herbivores and other carnivores. I guess we will see how perks turn out, all we can do is speculate on what they will do with perks.
Herbivores in evirma are stronger then the carnivores. A teno can kick a carno twice and damn near kill it. Stego's get to be immortal monsters if played at any level of intelligence. I dont want either side to be better then the other, but right now herbivores are out of control and I feel thats the major issue. As a dino lover in general it makes me feel like because I enjoy being a big gator or something other then the cuddle puddle populace I get to enjoy being punished. Just because of my prefered roles. to put into perspective the dev's think Deino is not an "apex" despite it being litterally one of earths most successful as well powerful hunters with a bite force stronger then a rex and a profile of impressive prey items. But a Stego is an apex? Sure. Makes sense. With these dev's being in charge the game is just going to be a mess until modding and server stat controls come into play.
Heres the problem, you don’t need verity for each playable just more playables. Perks and diet combos are completely unnecessary and makes dinos just less specialized
I think herbivores should be more acessible, and easier to play, than carnivores. Fact of the matter is, the game was at it's best when it was really hard, and players would choose to be herbivores more often than carnivores due to the relatively easy gameplay of the herbivores and the high difficulty of the carnivores. You had much more balanced ecosystems with a lot of herbivores and a few carnivores ranging from trying to grow to grown, skilled, players. I also think Herbivores should be rewarded by diets more than carnivores, as Meat is Meat, and herbivores risk themselves far more in finding the diets they wish, which might also return herbivores to fighting one another for the best food. I think it's easier to balance the game around carnivores simply needing to make kills, and herbivores having to go around the map in their given biomes to find the diet combination they want.
herbivores have food everywhere and they don't have to earn it by hunting it, they play in large herds and with defense and evasion mechanics. carnivores have it more difficult. therefore they have to be stronger. that he is going to make a premade of three meats against a herd of triceratops. ?
to put it simply, IMO herbis should be stronger IF and only IF they cannot effectively escape from the carnis, for example, I think a teno should beat a carno, but should have a tougher time with cera. idk, im not an expert at it lol
i dont disagree with you but stegos in evrima do too much damage and nothing really tries to kill them without large number advandtage 1 fully grown cerato or carno cant defeat a fully grown stego unless he is just bad. stegos will sit in the water and hope a giant croc will be stupid enough to attack it
Carni's should always be stronger as people will PVP regardless of whether they need food or not. Just look at all the stegos camping bodies. Besides, herbivores are supposed to pack up unlike the bigger carni's which are cannibals
The strongest herbivores should always be stronger than the strongest carnivores. That's how it is in nature, and that's how it should be in the game. Carnivores should have to work for their prey and think strategically.
Does anyone know how to fix the weird freeze? My game freezes at 10 minutes and if im fighting something when the game freezes i will only hear ambient audio even if i died I tried deleting config and saved folder and i reinstalled the game (im on update 6.5)
I don't agree with herbivores or carnivores being stronger. I think that a balance should be struck between dinos of the same matchup, with herbivores possibly having a slight advantage that the carnivores can make up for with skill. For instance, I think that an adult Trike should naturally have a 60/40 advantage versus a Rex and a 70/30 respectively for the Giga. It shouldn't be too extreme or else it makes these herbis a complete bore to play. People want to play herbis to show their skill expression as well as feel the excitement and stress from being hunted too, keep in mind. Carnis are absolutely needed to be strong as well to stop this game from being the chat room sim most herds devolve into because they lose all their threats. (And no threat = chat room) It would be neat if carnis would get a slight bloodlust buff or something if they are around a lot of herbis not in their group. This way, it would encourage carnis to go after big, risky herds.
Its not that hard, dinosaurs are real things. Unless a special ability is involved if a dino was stronger than another irl it should be stronger ingame
Your perk idea was in my opinion poor, as it would then just make the isle too similar to PoT, and with PoT’s bigger roster, why would anyone choose the Isle? That system in PoT is what personally keeps me from playing it as that would make the isle seem more like an rpg, which it isn’t.
Well yes herbivore need to be stronger than carnivores but having different weaknesses to make each of them vulnerable when fighting each different carnivores .
![[TH] 2024 PMSL SEA W1D5 | Fall | เก็บแต้มของจริง คือวันนี้](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/EciIAlCXg5k/mqdefault.jpg)
I think it should depend one what species is going up against what. Like, having a Giga overpower a sauropod with similar weight, but struggling against more armored herbivores like Anky or Trike, whereas a Rex would excel in the opposite matchup.
But still lose because a full grown trike is unkillable irl unless snuck up on or flipped over
@@AeneasReborn
I wouldn’t say unkillable, but the sentiment is correct.😊
@@AeneasRebornthat’s debatable
I totally agree. I think a bloodlust buff would do wonders for this game personally for carnivores to have. If they are hungry and facing a larger group of herbis not in their group, they gain a damage, health, or bleed buff to encourage players to go for risky plays against herds. IMO, the Isle just lacks incentive mechanics. The diet system was a good start but it's not nearly enough.
@@AeneasReborn extremely hard 1v1, but the reality is tyrannosaurus rex likely hunted in pairs and we know they went after trikes pretty often. Its like a lion vs a cape buffalo, not a 1v1 matchup but 4 lions vs 4 buffalo would be more favorable for the lions than the buffalo since lions dont get in each other's way or risk hurting each other.
The same thing applies to The Isle legacy with the giga vs almost anything, giga had problems with a rex 1v1 but gigas benefit more from numerical superiority than rexes since rexes risk breaking each other's legs but gigas already can take a bite from a giga just fine. Rexes cant risk biting each other since that essentially guarantees a loss so they have to social distance, gigas dont have to worry since they take bleed well. Gigas are actually quite op in legacy since rex is their only bad matchup and even then a giga duo can take on 3 or 4 rexes with enough luck and skill, the giga cant risk getting bitten tho so it causes very long fights that rex players dont like.
Thats the biggest problem... these are not animals, these are players with a human intelligence.
But if you play realism human intelligence is irrelevant
Depends on what your idea of realism is, because on offical servers realism counts as tenos and pachys actively hunting carnivores because they can. That isn't realistic, they are doing it because it's fun, it's a sport not a survival thing. You can only get so "real" before it gets boring, and vice versa for being too fun
@@dr.emmettbrown9359 there are also realism servers that are very real which can be fun too. It’s up to the individuals idea of fun that’s why there are a variety of servers to choose from
People need more things to do other than killing players. I would focus more on breeding and nesting. A breeding system where offspring get slightly better stats depending on their parents genetics and diet. If you combine this with a guild system you give groups of players long term goals. Giving them the opportunity to easily nest in their friends or other people in general. And slowly improve their genetics over multiple generations. Give them the opportunity to sniff out suitable partners looking for the right genetics to breed with. Allow them to mark territory and sniff this out. Nests should also be used for shelter and storing food for some species. Not just for laying eggs. Some {mostly smaller} species should be able to build nest and borrows they can hide in. Or introduce these places already existing within a new map. A place where larger predators can't go. But that they might camp to see if they can grab something coming out. A introduction of a sleep mechanic can also make nests more important. And gives people something else to worry about "where can i safely sleep?" Eggs should also be a food source and on the diet for some animals. Species should also have different numbers of offspring. This can also help to adjust group size. Where some smaller species might only be able to hatch one egg every 4 hours. While others can hatch 6 every hour for example. Adjust the incubation time depending on the species. Make some species more dependent on their parents than others. This together will form some type of dating and parenting sim within a survival game.
We also need a new map. Map design is bad for this game. A better map will solve half the problems we have.
I think the situation is that many predators use ambush and surprise. And many isle players do not.
two sides/methods of hunting in general, and that is AMBUSH and PURSUIT. LOTS of things use ambush, like frogs, predatory fish, bugs(praying manits n stuff) crocodiles, cats n more. MANY use pursuit, there are different kinds of pursuit but that aint too important. Beetles(run relatively fast compared to their prey, which is slugs and insects smaller than them that have less stride), wolves, african dogs, humans, tuna, dolphins, etc.
Well actually we humans do both. We either like to stalk and trot like a legacy giga, or sit in a blind or set a trap like an ambush.
Ambush works when prey doesn't know you are there or is unsure of where, when or how you'll strike. Croc is good example. African animals KNOW crocs be in the water, but they don't know where it exactly is.
Pursuit is either running FASTER, or LONGER. Either way works. Cheeta is an example of faster, and wolves/humans are good examples of longer/endurance running.
Because there is a "meta", and people like to hack n cheat or know ALL the good spots, it becomes REALLY hard for an ambush predator to successfully "pull a jimmy" and kill one. There's also the fact that these are isle players, and are FAMOUS for impatience(but I do understand the wait for updates is pretty mid), so they refuse to wait around when they can pick something more fun and fast. And what do you know, carno, utah, teno, troodon, galli and ptera are all fast. No need to potentially have an unlucky streak of missed attacks or prey recognizing you before you can even attack(isle meta players going into impossible to ambush spots), when you can spawn in, and use speed, power and numbers to simple kill anything that you see on sight, which is way more fun and feel-good than waiting.
Idk, might be wrong....
mfw actual animals are smarter than isle players
True, i just dont think there are enough players on the map to make ambushing worth while.
@@TheCriticalCarcharodon tru, MOST players are as simple-minded as herbivores, only some are truly skilled. Just like in real life WTF!!!!! (few top carnivores in a food pyramid of herbivores and whatnot)
I feel like the pack/herd size difference is a very interesting aspect, as it completely changes the dynamic of a fight.
Personally, I feel like herbivores and carnivores should be around the same strength, which keeps the combat balanced, though it becomes more dependent upon strategy for both herbis and carnis.
Let apexes be apexes and fight each other 1 to 1, but keep the variety of interactions that occur for those further down the roster.
I've always had the most fun being a mid-smaller tier and relying heavily upon ambushing to take others by surprise, but I know some others don't feel the same.
I believe Perk system is one of upcoming things that help with Carni-Herbi balance, but also Elder Stage and having aging from birth to death.
Stego is likely still very strong creature in game (new patch has not been on long enough for enough information), their herds would be fatal to poke at when there is 3 or more 100% adults. But when Elder stage comes they can become more powerful, however with dying to old age we can start to see more corpses on fields and more variation on creatures ages. Instead of having full grown herds we start to see herds with far larger age difference and with need for Migration, Carnivores would target weakest parts of herds and wait until herds need to move.
This does, however rise a question: Should Carnivores have slower Hunger and Diet decay so they could survive longer without need to feed? As this would make their playstyle more passive, something we don't want too much to apply.
Another thing that could help Carnivores is Legacy Gore piles. At moment any Carnivore can eat all flesh from bodies, leaving bones behind. If we add Legacy system where large Carnivores can't get all meat out and those bits are left for smaller and/or younger Carni players. This could help juvie stage players to survive to adults and this way help Carni numbers if Herbies are bit stronger in combat.
We can but wait until next year likely to see how this upcoming balance works with Perks and Elder Stage.
Depends on what herbivores and carnivores are being used. A sauropod can obviously top any theropod, unless the sauropod in question is a nigersaurus or a juvenile of another species.
But there is no universe where a microceratus is beating a velociraptor, for instance.
This is a really good idea. It's a great incentive for players to act within the ecosphere and could provide tangible rewards. For example, if a player is fully grown and nests 3 times, they could unlock "ancient" or something which allows for an extra 5-10% size growth.
Lol Sargon plays the Isle??
@@Patrick3183 Yeah he streamed some Legacy gameplay one time.
Some of these comments are absolutely braindead takes. Herbivores need to be at LEAST slightly stronger than carnivores or else most of the playerbase doesn’t play them. Yes, I know “oh, but I play (x) dinosaur” but that’s you, the exception. The average person is going to gun for a big stupid apex like T-Rex. Strong herbivores should exist to punish careless carnivore players. There should be an equality between them. One of the other top comments also has a pretty good point about species-based matchups.
Based
Balanced
But not biased
REAL
Na herbies shouldnt be stronger is very lame weak ass herbie player will play them only for the stat and pretend to be cool what you need is more rewards of playing them the isle need some currency real bad is like in world of warcraft no ones likes to play the lame Alliance so they give more rewards to the Alliance player that is balance and motivation to play the under played faction
The nerf to tail slam was just downright dirty. Why they gonna weaken tenos signature attack. Like bro…
Carno mains pissed their eyes because they couldn’t facetank a teno’s ass and Dondi listened
IKR I couldn't believe they did that, same with taking away pachy's stun... like if you wanna shorten the stun sure, but now pachies are gonna be bulldozed by everything. It's always the carno mains weeping constantly bc they lost one fight. Pachy's whole personality is that it can bully things, who is gonna want to play it now?? The isle does herbivores dirty.... except stego yet, queen stego.
Because teno tail spam was super op and broken. It would sub you for so long that you getting hit even 1 time was a death sentence.
@@kenshinhimura9387that doesn’t mean they should have nerfed it the way they did
@@dom9300For me 150 damage with the tail slam is too low, if it would have to be nerfed I would say make it do at least 200 damage, that's 50 damage less than the original tail slam
Herbis should be more defensive based and Carnivors offence based, where herbis in game dominate with strength, and defensive play styles where carnis more ability, speed and a more rushed offensive play style
That is more or less how it is. The exception to this could maybe be pachy and galli
This game needs some Anti mixpacking mechanic
Unfortunately every single suggestion I’ve seen for an anti-mixpack mechanic in isle discord (before i was banned) was terrible and easily exploitable
@@somerandomperson6511 That server is just an echo chamber now. How did u get banned? I got banned myself lol
@@cayde-6753 one of the mods there (Superlunary) is a trigger-happy bitch, whenever i was in balance discussion she’d butt in to every conversation telling people to calm down when everyone was being civil, a bored retard mod with nothing better to do than look for conflict to “moderate”. I got banned for saying “I can’t believe someone could write a suggestion that bad and post it” about some body-down debuff suggestion by someone that probably spends all their game time in a realism server lol. The bitch was waiting for the slightest bs to ban me over. Mainly i was just bummed because i can no longer screenshot hilariously bad feedback to add to my archive
@@somerandomperson6511 before u were banned 😭
@@hiitsjinx she wanted to ban me for a while that crazy they/them was breathing over my shoulder every time i was in feedback discussion lol
I hope when perks are added it’s more choice base where the decision you make in where you decide to invest your perks in will determine how strong certain attributes of your Dino are. Like I think if you are given a choice between two or three paths of perks so that way you have different builds or levels of strength speed health and defense that cater to a certain persons play style like a defense carno or stronger pachy or even beefier stego with a larger health pool. While still being able to upgrade other stats there can be pros and cons to each stat you increase and thus creating unique experiences for each player.
When you talk about herbivores being stronger in real life you are talking about a situations that have herbivores that are much bigger than their predators, it's not always the case though, sure it makes perfect sense for a herbivore to be stronger overall if it's bigger than the carnivore it has to deal with, it's not always the case though so it shouldn't be "herbivores should be stronger than carnivores" or othe other way around, it should be based on species. Like sure a Giga or a Rex should be able to take on multiple Paras alone and still come out on top but they should also lose the upper hand if they are fighting something above their weight class like a Shant even if it's a 2v1 against a single Shant. Though a lot of the times this also depends on player skill aswell.
Isle has stupid dwarf Paras, so bad. PoT Para is based though.
@@marcellus_h7930even if it is a mod 💀💀
@@marcellus_h7930 tbf it's better for it to be small than be a Shant clone, at least in a gameplay perspective
@@marcellus_h7930 Honestly I never played PoT, I feel like it's just a better version of The Isle legacy and I'm not gonna pay for that when I can play evrima
@@mikeoxsmal69 from what I have seen in videos it looks like PoT's modders actually do a better job than it's devs overall, I remember seeing an Acro mod that looked awesome, though I'm not sure if that mod is out yet, I don't play PoT and I don't plan on ever buying it
I think each species should be built to either hunt or defend from specific species but be weak to other specific species. Example carno is very good against teno but a cerato is very weak to Teno.
Also somthing that not a lot of people consider is that no matter how realistic the devs want to make the game, they are combining the dinosaurs from different time periods in which never would have fought or even seen eachother. Trex lived along side trike and anky but wouldn’t know how to handle fighting a stego so you can just pin one side more powerful than the other, but it’s hard since it’s a game and balance should be decent
I think the Rex would be smart enough to see/realise that the most dangerous part is at the end of the tail (similar to ankylosaurus). But i know what you mean.
I believe it should be based on creature tier so mid tires in a 1v1 would be somewhat evenly matched but once there is a number difference the balance flips
yh i think weight should be the decider for who is most likely going to win, like packy 1v1 ing asub or ad carno is crazy
All I can say, is that for a game seeking "realism" they're not doing a good job. On average, carnivores and herbivores of similar size classes in real life we tend to see a very severe favor toward the herbivore side of things. It's a reason why most species of carnivores who hunt prey items similar in size tend to see less success. Because herbivores are some of the most aggressive and dangerously equipped species out there due to the pressure of being hunted.
There is, however, a LOT of factors that should go into this for sake of balance. Obviously since carnivores need to eat and be allowed to actually enjoy the game, I think similar sizes of specific classes should have similar strong and weak points that when played right, could make or break the situation in combat. However, in a group hunting a herd situation, that should also depend heavily on the servers. Which there are so many body down rule servers, I feel those make the best sense to stick to for a more "even" experience as honestly on official, there's so much excessive toxicity, there's no point ever considering balance within official servers.
Spent a few days as Galli without having to deal with predation. Ran this galli for about 4 days consisting of ; mango, explore, water, mango, explore, water. It was the most agonizingly boring gameplay loop. When I asked a buncha twitch streamers and their chat what I should do next they said; "go kick some babies", my heart sank and I went back to playing Dienosuchus
I think a big thing you raised that's worth noting is the issues for lower skill carnivore players if you remove the AI. This isn't a problem - its actually good thing. In general, for a more balanced environment to exist, you need more herbivores than carnivores, if not you get the constant deathmatch that typically goes on officials in Isle.
The optimal way to balance is to design herbivores as really reliable, easy to get into animals, but ultimately design their toolkit so that their skill plateaus at a certain point.
By contrast, you make carnivores have a harder time with baseline surviving but give them really good tools for skill expression, which makes them broadly inaccessible to less experienced players (for larger carnivores, anyways) who end up going for ones with safety-nets, such as a Ceratosaurus' scavenging or a Deinosuchus' fishing, with an animal like Omniraptor or Carnotaurus not really being for a 'bad' player.
A key area we can look at, off the Isle's current mechanics, is locational damage, to pair with this broad setup that DOES manage to please both sides of the realism argument and still manage to offer very different gameplay between carnivores and herbivores.
Carnivores should have, by and large, less extreme locational multipliers than herbivores, both in reduction (tail, legs) & weak point (head, neck).
As such, you can give an animal like Tenontosaurus more health and damage than Ceratosaurus, with Tenontosaurus taking very little damage to the tail but an exceptionally high amount to the head. By contrast, Ceratosaurus is the more agile animal and would not take noticeably more damage on a headshot.
This serves a few key purposes;
1.
With AI removed, any Carnivore you are liable to see is immediately someone you have to assume knows what they are doing. They are, put simply, skilled. If it's managing to secure kills consistently to stay alive, its using the game's mechanics to their fullest and is managing to overcome a statistical disadvantage. This means the carnivore player who's made it that far can be rewarded and can be intimidating out the gate.
2.
With AI removed and carnivores having less extreme locational multipliers, combat between rival carnivores becomes much riskier as even with skilled play, the likelyhood of sustaining a lot of injury increases and the fight, by and large, would end up longer than managing to ambush a herbivore and strike at its weak spot. Fighting for food becomes this tense exchange instead of simply walking off to eat a deer.
3.
With AI removed and herbivores statistically advantaged for lower-skill play, they end up naturally encompassing a larger portion of the playerbase. This avails their diets, and any other benefits from hunting them, to carnivores as an abundant, albeit difficult, food supply.
It's ultimately a win-win setup. Herbivores attract a large, casual and more passive playerbase while carnivores end up attracting aggressive competitive players. Both factions stay true to their purpose and both factions are empowered. Herbivores have the tools to defend themselves and yet have critical weaknesses they need to be mindful of. Carnivores feel good for managing to effectively exploit those weaknesses.
I would say a necessary requirement for the carnivores would be for them to get a bit more generous healing than herbivores, since to become good at the game, you will need to practice. Perhaps nesting can be given greater value to dinosaurs by allowing hatchlings to 'play fight' with their siblings, dealing no bleed and significantly reduced damage to each other, to get a hang of their character's combat in a relatively safe setting.
I agree but I don't think AI should be completely removed, just rarer and/or much harder to catch. You should have to sneak up on a deer to kill it, or else it sprints off at Mach 5 and gets away from everything except Carnotaurus for example. Also, I don't like the idea of punishing carnivores by removing all the AI because how the hell is a juvi raptor, let alone a juvi rex supposed to survive then aside from sibling cannibalism & unreliable scavenging? What if every player on the server is an adult apex herbivore? There is no skill expression when the matchup is completely one sided because the baby carnis can't even make it to adult. I think you'll run into a separate issue where there's no adult carnivores simply because there is nothing for them to eat.
@@justmonika2345 spoiler alert, long time players remember the game before any AI existed.
Carnivores had the same problem and found solutions, hunting juveniles and scavenging.
It really isn't unreliable, just learn the map and go to where you will find casualties.
Progression was even more brutal in this respect and a far longer process than any growth time. People still managed. They just didn't manage if they were bad.
I absolutely love your ideas. I think with all of what you said, and an increased player capacity, there really is no need for AI. And your balancing suggestions seem to work very well in my head. With more people playing herbivores, food will be relatively abundant once you reach adulthood. And before reaching adulthood, there will still be plenty of juvies and definitely some good places to scavenge. As a carnivore main, I think decreasing the number of carnivores is a great idea. It feels rather strange to mostly only fight other carnivores. I'd much rather have the more immersive experience of hunting herbivores. And with making herbivores a more casual thing, so many more people will play them. Basically, your suggestions just completely fix The Isle's ecosystem haha.
This was fascinating to read, and I agree with every point, maybe so Juvies can survive more easily, have a system close to Legacy where an extremly loud AI will spawn close to a very hungry player, and make AI stop spawning after a certain point of growth, that way it’s a lot more easy to reach adulthood while keeping all the systems you gave
@@astrotrain6037 imagine unironically wanting delivery service AI to return 🤢
I have noticed that hervovires dont have enought stam to escape if a predator sees you, so the game forces you to fight for your life. The problem is that hervivores are too weak to defend themsrlves.
I usually play survival, not death match like most of the people do in the game.
I think there should be two separate stamina, one for runnin/swimming/flying and one for attacking
I’ve seen a couple people say “Ecosystems need more powerful herbivores” This is not true at all, Look at NA, SA, Asia, Australia, And some others, Even then look at the specific countries, A grizzly bear is stronger and can kill just about everything in America, Same with Canada, In Mexico now they have Jaguars so those would be the most powerful, I don’t list Africa due to Cape buffalo and hippos but even then they still die to carnivores commonly. Carnivores need to have strengths OVER herbivores to survive, That’s why they usually choose a weaker target, So they can survive the hunt, In legacy the reason playing herbivores still was viable was due to herds, And carnivores never complained either, It was fun and arguably more realistic that a tyrannosaurus would kill just about everything in the roster, It would IRL to, With triceratops being the only one(Not including pue) That could kill it irl, Diablo was absolutely incredible for a mid tier, Arguably the best one, The problems show up when an herbivore is able to beat carnivores by itself a good chunk to most of the time, Why? Because it can still join a herd, And in something like path herds make you WAYYY stronger than in the isle, Thats why carnivores should be, At top level, A bit stronger than herbivores
I just want equal balance, I want the herbivores to have fair match ups against their carnivore counter parts, For example I want a Rex and a Trike to be equal and not one sided. I just get so sick of seeing herbivores being made useless, powerless, defenseless walking meat sacks for carnivores, like that shouldn't be the case because herbivores were just as deadly as carnivores
The hell are you on?
Stegos are the strongest things in the game and tenos screwed over cera so badly they had to hyper buff them.
@@The_cat_father well nothing really lol. I don't need to state the obvious and say that the Isle has a notorious track record for bad balancing and poor decisions they make for there game
If rex will be faster than trike, then trike SHOULD have a clear melee advantage in a fight, not equal
@@somerandomperson6511 True, I just get frustrated when media and games don't give herbivores the strength and power they should've had
@@AlanAcosta-hy9zv yep and sadly that carnivore bias often makes it in to the animal survival genre including the isle where in legacy a trike is an easy kill for a giga or rex, hopefully evrima does better
Personally I think I’m a one on one they should each be about the same with each having its own strengths and weaknesses. Saying that I think that they should also be made to complement each other in a way like Rex and trike or allo and stego sorta thing. You can have a Dino be able to fight more than one Dino if they’re designed that way. However, if you have an allo going up against a trike which is a higher tier than the allo is going to be in a bit of trouble.
So really it should depend on the Dino itself and what they’re ment to take on that should give players an idea of difficult. The only real time I think herbs should be stronger than carnivores is when it comes to herds. That’s where I think the real Strength of herbivores should come from.
yes carnis and herbis should be better against specific dinos and bad against others, but it think for herbis to be stronger when in herds then herbis alone should be weaker than the carnis bc that would encourage players to be in herds
@@juicy8019 alone I think it depends on what the Dino is and what it’s going up against and plays it smart. However, yes i think if your going up against a pack of something that is designed to go up against you 9/10 times its more likely you’ll lose. While being in a herd increases your chance of surviving greatly.
If we're going off reality, then yes, herbivores are usually far stronger. Whilst a tiger for instance is incredibly powerful, its nothing compared to a Gaur. The same can be said for animals like buffalo, wild boar and bison. Prey animals are usually either fast, or tough. You have some middle ground like smaller bovids, larger antelope, deer, and horses. But in terms of blunt damage, they still generally outclass predators. In a video game sense however, this would probably be unbalanced. Most hunts cant fail in a game where that usually means the death of the predator. So, whilst I think for instance most bulky herbivores should be able to take more damage than their predators in the same weight class, carnivores could benefits from doing more damage to balance things out. This isnt too unrealistic either, given that whilst prey animals often can do more harm with attacking any part of the body, the more precise nature of predators allows them to end hunts rapidly. It'd also be good if we saw different predators do better damage against different species. For instance Gigas could do more damage to Sauropods, whilst Rex could do more damage to armoured prey like ankylosaurs and ceratopsids. To reiforce this, sauropods could be weaker to bleed, but have a lot of health, whilst anks and ceratopsids could be weaker to bone breakaged, but have more armour. Finally, herbs and carns should be able to smell one another (bathing in mud or water could mask their sent).
It would be really good if one day we see regional damage. So for instance, if an Allosaurus bit a Stegosaurus on the back it would do little damage, unable to get a good angle due to the plates and the shear bulk of the animal in that region, whereas it would do much great damage if the Stegosaurus was bit on the head or neck. This would be super interesting to see on ankylosaurs especially. In the same regard, biting Shants on the tail or flanks may do little, but the neck and underside might be weaker. Kinda like in Primal Carnage Extinction .So, herbivores would need some degree of strategy to take down, and predator players who havent perfected this yet would struggle, both acting as balancing and reflecting reality. This might also lessen the effectiveness of super packs, if you couldnt just run at something and bite it over and over again in a huge group.
Another way they could make herbs more fun is mating, have some species need to do mating rituals or fights to be able to even mate. Hell, mating rituals could even be a minigame lol.
the correct answer is, buff dryo to have 100 000 health and do 8000 dmg
Yesss I love when u upload!!
Power level should be roughly equal, depending on species.
A trike for example, should have a 50/50 matchup against a spino or a rex, Justification being that trike herds can be larger, and herbi's are generally easier to play.
A "hervivore bias" where herbis are stronger than carnis, Could entirely bring one faction out of play entirely, or reduce it to obscurity.
Rexes being unable to hunt herbis due to them being stronger may make rex extremely difficult to maintain as food intake will be absurdly low. And a herbivore dominated meta may reduce isle to a grass eating simulator.
of course, this is speculation, but the strongest carni should be on par, or slightly stronger than the strongest herbivore, and herbivores should have a higher pack limit than carnivores to encourage herding.
i would definitely disagree that herbivores “want to fight” lol there’s tons of reasons people play the game and i find that most herbivore players are usually just trying to find a herd for the social aspect and grow a dino to full size without focusing much on pvp
Banger video as always
If Herbie Players are only food, nobody plays them. If Carnivores have more success hunting other carnivores, you split the playergroup. If one Dino is just the best, everyone picks that dino.
It's not an easy job to accomplish balance between so many different characters to play. A possibility would be either situational advantages, or a quite advanced rock-paper-scissor game (T-Rex is super strong, but Troodons nullify it's advantages with Poison. Troodons are many and have a dangerous bite, but there's a Dino that can bite off pounced animals. The Dino has this advantage, but is no match for a rex for example. Now build a lot of those R-P-S Chains with different kinds of Dinos. Whenever one grows to big in number, it's predators find more food and flourish, which encourages their counters to flourish, which enables the original dino to flourish, eg. Now also include inter-diet systems that balance each other out)
That's at least how i think this riddle can be solved...
I think it every thing should have it’s advantages over the other like a stego and carno.Skill being the the factor in which the outcome.The herbs evolved to defend against a certain style of carnivores and should struggle with other kinds like a herb evolved to survive intense bleeding should be hurt more by a crushing carnivores like a T. rex
I think that there is also a tiny road bump that attacking a herd and killing a bunch of them sounds great, food for days, except it rots and wastes a lot of it, bodies may need to last just a little bit longer to justify BIG kills.
Teno was a dinosaur what needed skill to play as. Now it got nerved and tbh i don't know why someone would do that💀
In evrima, Stegos are more aggressive than any other dino including cannibal cera's in my opinion. I was stalked, tracked, and hunted by an 4$$hole stego player who must have gotten confused about the fact that they do not NEED to kill yet they find it fun.
I think carnivores should be stronger simply because they need to seek out players to survive. Herbivores have a more consistent way of getting foods and nutrients and can focus more on stealth and strategy.
If a predator pulls off an ambush it should usually guarantee a kill if the predator was in a correct weight class for its target.
Though if I could have it my way, it would just weight class and group sized based. So like, an apex predator and apex herbivore would be evenly matched in a 1v1. same with medium and small dinos. The differences would be what makes them unique, sort of like how the ceratos anda carnos are in the same weight class but ceratos are weaker by default yet stronger with a corpse and both have outplay potential with their abilities. Dinos meant for a group should always be strong in a pack and weak alone aswell.
I don't play the isle but in general i think the rule of thumb should be to make carnivores weaker then the herbivores of the same tier in a head to head fight, yes carnivores have to kill but a lot of the time they don't actively go after the toughest motherfucker in the ecosystem, and if they do so they will either do it in groups or when the large herbivore is sick, injured or dying and out of desperation, like for example unless in certain cumstances a lion would prefer to hunt a mare zebra over a bull Buffalo, way less effort, way less risk for fatal injuries.
Like for example A Tyrannosaurus should try to ambush a triceratops instead of face tanking.
Herbivores should be as strong as carnivores of their same weight/size, that’s the thing, some herbivores can grow larger than carnivores thus making them stronger but that doesn’t mean in a 1vs1 at the same growth/size they need to be stronger. You can not let a giant sauropod grow basically, if it reached adult size then you’ll need multiple pack members to take it down, in real life carnivores also attack juvenile prey since they’re easier to hunt and this shouldn’t change, the bigger an animal the longer it takes to grow, the easier it is to be hunted while not in your peak combat capabilities of adult form, this way even the strongest herbivores go through the target range of most carnivores until they grow, and the bigger their species is the slower their parents so it’s in theory easier to caught them off guard and steal their babies if they nested for example.
Herbivore attacks should be slow and mostly defensive, with the exception of ramming or charging based attacks, this way you prevent herbivores from running down and killing carnivores in most situations but makes them formidable defense oriented builds, and even with all this in real life herbivores most of the time don’t really have that many skill or attack capabilities, it’s more their endurance and sheer physical superiority because of their size what makes them scary but not their accuracy or stealth like some carnivores.
Most carnivores shouldn’t be rewarded for hunting other carnivores, I believe you should get no diets or maybe a debuff since carnivore meat isn’t optimal in real life for many animals, at least apply this to bigger carnivores from carno to the apexes. This could make hunting carnivores a last resort behavior but not reduce the fights for territory or such.
You're thinking logically. The devs don't do that. Another thing that would help is a full roster of dinos that have legitimate preferences along with a higher server count for a more diverse ecosystem.
Idk, kind of goes back to how life isn't fair, and most of these dinos didn't live with each other. Also, the black death is a thing, so idrc
Assuming Camarasaurus will be the largest playable, then it should definitely be the strongest
Pretty sure shant is bigger than camara unless they are upsizing camara, and shant will be playable. They also have brachiosaurus planned
@@somerandomperson6511camera is actually a ton or two larger than shan’t though both are close to the same size
I didn't understand a word... but I bet I agree
This video was amazing, and that's all
Maybe if u kill a dino certain amount of times u gain some sort of advantage against that specific dino
They shouldnt be fodder but not overly strong either, gotta remember that herbies food doesn't run, doesn't fight back, any of that, they eat their veggies/fruits and go sit in a bush, predators have to actively hunt for their meals so they should have a slight edge over their prey.
I think herds and having the numbers advantage is what herbivores are good for, like Teno vs carno,
carnos charges and knockdown their pray in a ambush but has a hard time turning around and to charge, it needs to get to running speed
Tenos are defensive with a tail that knocks you down, a kick that does good damage quickly and stuns Dino’s slightly larger then it or it also knocks you down, claws and bites for the smaller guys. It’s even better with its turn speed when standing walking or trotting.
Now correct me if I’m wrong but if the Teno and carno are skilled in a 1v1, the fight is in carnos favvor because if a Teno messes up the defense for a moment for the carno to charge or even a bite it will be losing vary quickly because the carno is bigger and does a lot of damage to it despite all the defense for *attacking*.
But I’m just going to make it simple, carno is bigger then Teno but Teno is big enough to fight a carno.
I like being hunted when in a Galimimus.
Deinosuchus is to squishi, Ceratosaurus too tanky, Stegosaurus too tanky too mobile, Carnos to slow, the rest is good. And give the Pteranodon a diving mechanic, for the air, maybe for the water too. Hopefully theyre gonna include weather changes maybe a dry period or a raining season, where the water level rises and the island changes with it. Animals have so much to offer in survival situations.
Deinosuchus is very tanky, cerato is only really tanky compared to bigger creatures when near a body, stego is very tanky but its speed is mediocre, and carnos are the fastest thing in the game other than galli from what I understand, also ptera can already skim for fish plus its a ptera so shouldnt be in combat much anyways except maybe for stealing babies from nests.
Yes, herbivores should be stronger than carnivores (like, not everyone, not like Galli or Dryo for example) since herbivores are stronger irl too
I think we all remember how legacy end up, since carnivores are stronger there
Wouldn’t that just have the same effect as legacy carnis severally weaker than herbis
@@TheKingofCoralin legacy Rex and Giga have no problem to kill in 1V1 Trike, although Trike should be the 1 who should have no problem with them, and yet, when Trike would be stronger than Giga and Rex, and you play as Rex or Giga, just go look for easier prey like Maia or Tenonto or steal food from someone, just like irl carnivores, always go for easier food
In IRL herbivores don't go out of the way to wipe anything that moves off the census. We don't need yet another dinosaur survival game that's biased towards herbivores.
@@roguetheoutlander8800 so your saying that giga and Rex shouldn’t be able to hunt a trike? Despite them being the main big 3 apex’s of the isle?
They should be encouraged it hunt one another this is a game not real life people don’t want to deal with something so strong they may as well either hunt another thing that isn’t as strong and can’t give a proper fight or just play something that specializes in hunting those specific species
@@TheKingofCorali didnt said that Rex and Giga shoudnt be able to kill Trike, i meant that they shoudnt win 95% of those times
bring back either global chat or a local different species chat, make herbies want to group. (mainly cos I want to hunt them lmao)
We dont always have ai food for diet. Deinos have no 3 dot ai food.
Im a Evrima player, can only speak for Evrima branch.
Simple answer no.
Long answer: Herbis have the Freedom to evade and hide without fearing to starve. So they shoudnt have this freedom + be stronger then any carnivore in their size.
Carnivores have to hunt, beside the "fun side" of hunting they have a lot of competition, in nature it is not unusaul to kill any potential competition.
A Year ago it was impossible as Deimo to fight 1vs1 on full grown Stego, it was nearly impossible. Now u can drown them and Stego playerbase stoped harassing the Deimo's.
So i come to conclusion the buff to the Deimo's was essential in this situation. Also i think carnivores should always stronger then herbivores in same size.
In wich spot u see the newer Omnivores, like the Galli?
Well my main problem is that these dinosaur survival games seemingly try and make every dino egual.
AI and corpses imo should still be there for one reason, it makes you able to get food everytime.
Imagine you were a lone utah and there was no AI and all the other dinos in the server were stegos, deinos and carnos, how would you even find food, pray for a lone baby?
It's more of an issue with herbs and map layout/terrain in general. No real structures or areas that larger things can't get into/slowed down(we have that, but VERY limited). Rn, its go to hotspot, fuck around, then be done. There is no REAL survival. Herbs can live anywhere, no struggle for edible food like in the real world, and certainly no competition. Plus carnivores every where. I reckon if herbs ate differently, and the map/location of food, water, structures in general were fixed, we'd have a reason to be a small herbivore, because it wont starve to death like a big herbivore, and can do more things. Rn though, ther is nothing for the lil guys, so there will be no ecosystem, just a desert with many carnivores self-sustaining themsleves with so many different carni species eating each other and spawning back in, while any herbivore gameplay is so easy and simple to live or survive that all you need to do is go to an abandoned spot and waste time growing. Yes, diets I know, but it didn't fix much. It is STILL, go to bush eat then hide in bush. If the way herbs handle their eating was improved into something more complex and FUN(DONT FORGET THAT!!!!!!) then people would play herbivore a LOT more, for the challenge of SURVIVAL, not a wait then have fun fighting game. One more thing about small herbs in particular(dryo n hypsie), is that your POV/camera angle is too low to see over the hills or bushes or EVEN THE FUCKING GRASS *cough cough hypsie cough cough*, and althoug you may have better stam or potentially speed, it all is shit when predator spots you way before you realize there even was a dino there in the first place. I liked dryo being able to regen stam faster, and was slower, so as long as you got a head start and a big map, you should be fine, but in reality the REAL "map" is a tiny plains with spots of forests, tons of one-shot death trains and boring avoidant lifestyle to even live. Not very fun.
I prefer a much more complex and nuanced system rather than rock paper scissors.
Mostly equal, mostly fair, advantages and disadvantages.
I do think strains will completely ruin that diet balance though.
If they’re stronger that would mean no carnivore will be able to hunt
Here’s the problem herbivores don’t need someone lower on there food chain allowing everyone to play the tippy top strongest herbivore and in the case of the isle don’t have to worry about survival and just kill and hunt for fun and it shouldn’t be that way especially when carnivores sometimes if your like me don’t even want to hunt anymore but are forced to (your forced into an unbalanced fight) and that’s why it’s easier to hunt other carnivores as they have to fight you and are not as dangerous to do so and herbivores should be forced to try and survive it’s what makes the game fun but they can just hide in a corner until there a giant and go ruin other peoples fun and carnivores should be able to win a fight with almost everything and herbivores should be able to at least escape they don’t have to win as escaping is winning but also herbivores shouldn’t just be able to leave when they are being beaten or just want to like meh I’m out carnivores need a way to force the fight and not have it be 1 sided and I’m on the carnis side because the herbivores don’t have to try as hard and the community is extremely toxic I was playing as a raptor scavenging and some Teno’s camped the body so I’d starve even tho I was not a threat and there was nothing a could do since one attack would kill me and they were protected on all sides especially since there was two and I go to hunt and there is nothing anywhere until I find Stegos which one shot and can just wait for me to hit them then kill me since I can’t do enough damage not only that but there where like 5 so it’s just kinda dumb how they can own whatever with no repercussions
No a carnivore needs to be able to hunt a lone herbi down if you are playing a prey animal then you are going to get hunted the biggest issue these games have is that herbivores have no reason to compete for food and water there is always an abundance of plants for herbis to share when in real life a lot of herbivores will end up weak from starving when a large pack of bigger herbivores come to a area and begin to compete with others for the food and water meaning there is a constant rotation of herds and migrations which gives medium sized dinosaurs a chance to pick hunts rather than annoying babysitting apex herbis ( also Envirma has stego which can face tank and kill a deino which makes no sense)
Herbivores do have to worry about food. Too many herbivores will starve others out.
i hated it when they removed the leg break from the trike in vanilla.
That should be the main thing every Isle player should know.....STICK TOGETHER WITH YOUR OWN KIND
I feel like herbivores are strong enough to fend off carnivores, which is why carnivores develop weapons to counter them. Stronger herbivores would only motivate carnivores to evolve and match their chosen prey. In this game, it solely depends on the species.
In most ecosystems carnivores will hunt smaller herbivores or have to work together to take down larger prey which would stomp them in a face to face encounter
Herbivores should be stronger for the simple fact that they should be the vast majority. No other ecosystem survives with a balance of predators 70% and prey 30%. It's always going to be a lot of carnivores because of preference. At least make herbivores not complete pushovers
well when i play as a herbivore. I dont let carnivores hunt me, I hunt them.
nah bro miss me with that quest shit
I’m a carno+utah main and I say herbies should be equal and if not stronger than carnies
Nothing should be stronger or weaker then e other it should all be balanced
So we just need more incentive for carni players to go for herbivores and herds
That's not going to happen. Herbi players over pack like crazy and mix pack
@@kenshinhimura9387 People act like there are only specific creatures that do that in this game, from what I've seen there have been cases where there are like 6 carnos and plus mixpacks consist of almost all creatures in this game, and again mixpacking and overpacking with herbivores is much more realistic and giving carnivores a reward for hunting them could fix this problem, as Zaguer stated.
I just think the game mechanics should replicate natural ecosystems to a degree and we adapt around it
these kinds of videos feel like the herbivore bias in dinosaur sim communities has become an even more annoying problem than the carnivore bias, the game needs better combat and movement systems before any of these balancing problems can be addressed.
NO!!!
However, herbivors should be way more aggressive than they currenty are. A Herd system with Alphas and Omegas and defending territorys should help alot of problems with the current issues.
Predators need to be feared so the Prey has a reason to fight. If the Prey can easily defend or ever slaughter the Predator whos to say which is which?
Balance comes to mind along with food web. Each creature serves a function in the ecosystem and has habits like all.
Currently players mix pack, mega pack, kos. Its a mess, with more objectives and a real reason not to do such things such as "debuffs" or "strain" on animals would deture people from playing like toddlers in a playground.
Though it isnt the fault of the players themselves since doing such things doesnt come with a downside, its the devs that need to step it up.
Survival and Procreation is the name of the game.
It depends on the species. People complain about how strong Stegosaurus is but I mean. It just makes sense that being hit by a Stegosaurus' thagomizer, especially in a vulnerable area would either seriously wound or instantly kill an animal. Stegosaurus are Huge and so are their Thagomizers.
People complain that the stego is mostly uncontestable. Not how strong it is. Even the deino can't usually kill a stego, regardless of catching it off guard near the water.
@LupusNovis that seems like that was changed though. I've seen Deinos easily catching stegos and aside from Deinosuchus no other predator in the game Should be able to touch an Adult stegosaurus. They take ages to grow so If you do make it to adult without being killed by a Carno or Raptor pack it's a pretty good reward. The reality is none of these animals aside from deinosuchus are large enough to reliably take down an animal as large as a stego. I mean the smallest animal that will probably have a chance in hell is the Allosaurus
@@Forestguardian you missed my point entirely. People are mad that there's nothing to contest a stego. they keep adding low and mid tier animals that require 8+ in a pack to take on one stego. nothing even comes close to being it's equal. Your statement about deinos is also kinda bogus because it takes at least 3 to kill one steg unless you catch it trying to swim across the river. People want a high tier carnivore that can level the playing field and make it so that stegos can't just do whatever the hell they want. or at least something that can actually combat the thagomizer. i'm sick of seeing 4+ stegs that bully everything because nothing can touch them.
@@Forestguardian You also need to remember they have yet to add the trike. if the stego is this bad, I can't imagine how bullshit trikes are gonna be in evrima
@@LupusNovis they're adding T rex and Trike together so they'll counter eachothet
Apexes should be stronger than every other animal. Large animals like Shant, Para, Anky, and others should have to FIGHT and outplay an apex to survive. That’s how it works in predator prey relationships irl. Most predators retreat when prey puts up too much of a fight. Maybe herbie players should quit using excuses and actually use interesting tactics and escape methods rather than trying to fight apexes in open fields. Run into thick dense woods, Rexes and gigas are too big to pursue most things through certain places anyways. Maybe give herbie players kickback tail attacks as an alt attack.
To mane sure the game isnt a chat room if herbivores are stronger than carnis npc dinosaurs would be a good idea. Npc packs of troodon hunting large herbivore players and npc stegos or smth to hunt would be a good example
i think the biggest issue is that on average carnivores are played more often, which i believe is the main reason that carnivores kill carnivores. i believe there needs to be more of an incentive to play as herbivores (what that should be i have no idea)
Tbh the best herbivores are already stronger than the best carnivores. The amount of times I’ve been bullied by pachies when I was just minding my own is annoying.
same, I know people hate when this is brought up but before they nerfed pachys stagger in a 1v1 situation with carno, if they attacked the carno first and got a fracture, the carno was most likely dead at least if the pachy was skilled, as they could just bully it like a punching bag, especially once the carno got a leg fracture or even all 3 fractures, as the carno loses its one and only true advantage which is speed and then again stagger so it really wouldnt be able to bite it either.
People need more things to do other than killing players. I would focus more on breeding and nesting. A breeding system where offspring get slightly better stats depending on their parents genetics and diet. If you combine this with a guild system you give groups of players long term goals. Giving them the opportunity to easily nest in their friends or other people in general. And slowly improve their genetics over multiple generations. Give them the opportunity to sniff out suitable partners looking for the right genetics to breed with. Allow them to mark territory and sniff this out. Nests should also be used for shelter and storing food for some species. Not just for laying eggs. Some {mostly smaller} species should be able to build nest and borrows they can hide in. Or introduce these places already existing within a new map. A place where larger predators can't go. But that they might camp to see if they can grab something coming out. A introduction of a sleep mechanic can also make nests more important. And gives people something else to worry about "where can i safely sleep?" Eggs should also be a food source and on the diet for some animals. Species should also have different numbers of offspring. This can also help to adjust group size. Where some smaller species might only be able to hatch one egg every 4 hours. While others can hatch 6 every hour for example. Adjust the incubation time depending on the species. Make some species more dependent on their parents than others. This together will form some type of dating and parenting sim within a survival game.
We also need a new map. Map design is bad for this game. A better map will solve half the problems we have.
In my opinion, Herbivores do need to be stronger than carnivores in order for people to play them more frequently which makes them a better challenge for competitive carnivor players
No me parece mal para que haya un aliciente a coger herbívoros, ya que es un juego y en un juego todo el mundo querría ser un carnívoro si el carnívoro fuera el más fuerte. Y si el carnívoro no es el más fuerte seguiremos queriendo ser carnívoros porque gustan, pero habiendo alicientes en los herbívoros
I think a good idea to resolve this and even other problems in the game’s roster would be to have some type of system so each Dino can have buffs or debuffs depending on the weight and size of the enemy Dino.
To explain it better: for example let’s say a Carno gets a damage and even speed buff when facing against an animal smaller than itself, but does less damage when the Dino is bigger, and does normal damage when the Dino is the same size than it. Or let’s say a Giga excels at prey heavier than itself like a Shant, a Duck or even a Pue, but does badly against similar sized animals like a Trike, but a T. Rex does pretty good against similar sized animals but fails against heavier and so on.
That way, every player knows what he is good or bad against, and can avoid or choose fights depending on the specific animal they are playing against, instead of just killing everything because it is stronger than everyone else. This system could also help some animals distinguish better from themselves in a PvP situation, because each would be more or less effective against certain types of creatures.
I know this system has some flaws, starting with the question of if the Isle could even apply this, or the fact that some matchups could have creatures that cancel each other buffs, but I think a more polished version of this could help make the Isle, and even PoT and BoB, more balanced games
That beginning comment with the carno is literally just the old weight system which was good because a tiny velociraptor should not be dealing full damage against something like a shant or an acro where it would barely be piercing the skin, but a speed buff is retarded. You do not have to change stats in different species pair-ups, if you do not want giga hunting trike, simply give trike high bleed resistance, and if you do not want rex hunting a sauropod, the sauropod should be resistant to fracture but take regular bleed damage, as rex focuses on raw damage while giga is clearly designed to bleed. Giving dinos arbitrary buffs depending on what specific species they are attacking is honestly such a cheap route
This would eventually destroy most of the fun
Good points, yeah, thinking well this might not be the greatest idea
The Ai is nowhere near plentiful enough or nutritious enough to sustain adult carnivores and some carnivores only have 1-2 of the ai in there diet which is meant to be hunted when your small and growing up, Me and my friend group always have to migrate around to hunt herbivores and other carnivores. I guess we will see how perks turn out, all we can do is speculate on what they will do with perks.
Herbivores in evirma are stronger then the carnivores. A teno can kick a carno twice and damn near kill it. Stego's get to be immortal monsters if played at any level of intelligence.
I dont want either side to be better then the other, but right now herbivores are out of control and I feel thats the major issue. As a dino lover in general it makes me feel like because I enjoy being a big gator or something other then the cuddle puddle populace I get to enjoy being punished. Just because of my prefered roles.
to put into perspective the dev's think Deino is not an "apex" despite it being litterally one of earths most successful as well powerful hunters with a bite force stronger then a rex and a profile of impressive prey items. But a Stego is an apex? Sure. Makes sense. With these dev's being in charge the game is just going to be a mess until modding and server stat controls come into play.
Heres the problem, you don’t need verity for each playable just more playables.
Perks and diet combos are completely unnecessary and makes dinos just less specialized
I think herbivores should be more acessible, and easier to play, than carnivores. Fact of the matter is, the game was at it's best when it was really hard, and players would choose to be herbivores more often than carnivores due to the relatively easy gameplay of the herbivores and the high difficulty of the carnivores. You had much more balanced ecosystems with a lot of herbivores and a few carnivores ranging from trying to grow to grown, skilled, players. I also think Herbivores should be rewarded by diets more than carnivores, as Meat is Meat, and herbivores risk themselves far more in finding the diets they wish, which might also return herbivores to fighting one another for the best food. I think it's easier to balance the game around carnivores simply needing to make kills, and herbivores having to go around the map in their given biomes to find the diet combination they want.
herbivores have food everywhere and they don't have to earn it by hunting it, they play in large herds and with defense and evasion mechanics. carnivores have it more difficult. therefore they have to be stronger. that he is going to make a premade of three meats against a herd of triceratops. ?
to put it simply, IMO herbis should be stronger IF and only IF they cannot effectively escape from the carnis, for example, I think a teno should beat a carno, but should have a tougher time with cera. idk, im not an expert at it lol
that makes sense, however Im not sure but I think thats kinda already how it plays out, but skill is always involved.
No look at stego in ervima no one finds it fun to get bullied by a pack of them
Nobody whould even play herbivore if the carnevore’s was stronger 🤣
i dont disagree with you but stegos in evrima do too much damage and nothing really tries to kill them without large number advandtage 1 fully grown cerato or carno cant defeat a fully grown stego unless he is just bad. stegos will sit in the water and hope a giant croc will be stupid enough to attack it
thats currently the problem with game balance. too many ceras
Carni's should always be stronger as people will PVP regardless of whether they need food or not.
Just look at all the stegos camping bodies.
Besides, herbivores are supposed to pack up unlike the bigger carni's which are cannibals
The strongest herbivores should always be stronger than the strongest carnivores. That's how it is in nature, and that's how it should be in the game. Carnivores should have to work for their prey and think strategically.
Btw what is the reason for Nesting in evrima? Does someone has an idea how to give it a reason ?
Does anyone know how to fix the weird freeze?
My game freezes at 10 minutes and if im fighting something when the game freezes i will only hear ambient audio even if i died
I tried deleting config and saved folder and i reinstalled the game (im on update 6.5)
I don't agree with herbivores or carnivores being stronger. I think that a balance should be struck between dinos of the same matchup, with herbivores possibly having a slight advantage that the carnivores can make up for with skill. For instance, I think that an adult Trike should naturally have a 60/40 advantage versus a Rex and a 70/30 respectively for the Giga. It shouldn't be too extreme or else it makes these herbis a complete bore to play. People want to play herbis to show their skill expression as well as feel the excitement and stress from being hunted too, keep in mind.
Carnis are absolutely needed to be strong as well to stop this game from being the chat room sim most herds devolve into because they lose all their threats. (And no threat = chat room) It would be neat if carnis would get a slight bloodlust buff or something if they are around a lot of herbis not in their group. This way, it would encourage carnis to go after big, risky herds.
Its not that hard, dinosaurs are real things. Unless a special ability is involved if a dino was stronger than another irl it should be stronger ingame
Your perk idea was in my opinion poor, as it would then just make the isle too similar to PoT, and with PoT’s bigger roster, why would anyone choose the Isle? That system in PoT is what personally keeps me from playing it as that would make the isle seem more like an rpg, which it isn’t.
Well yes herbivore need to be stronger than carnivores but having different weaknesses to make each of them vulnerable when fighting each different carnivores .
Oh yes, the aspect about herds. Herbivores outnumber carnis by a tenfold or even more in real life.
At this point he is talking about path of titans :/
Funny how POT is so overpowered by herbivores lol