SteamVR's "Lighthouse" for Virtual Reality and Beyond
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ก.ย. 2024
- One of the most important aspects of virtual reality will be accurate positional tracking of the headset and user motion. Valve's SteamVR--the best virtual reality implementation we've tried so far--uses a beacon-based tracking system called Lighthouse. We chat with Lighthouse engineer Alan Yates about how Lighthouse and its components work, the technology's strengths and limitations, and how it could be used in other applications outside of VR.
Shot by Andy Bauman, edited by Joey Fameli
Music by Jinglepunks
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Norman Chan / nchan
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Adam Savage / donttrythis
Jamie Hyneman / jamienotweet
Thanks for watching!
Norm, I think you are a terrific interviewer. Very knowledgeable, adding context and bits of information yourself, but letting the interview subject manage his own flow of speech. Loved it. :)
NotActuallyChristian Yeah, it feels like his interview technique has improved greatly the last years as well. It's so much more interesting to watch an interview when the interviewer knows enough about the tech to ask the right questions.
TheNiters It is really cool to have seen his progression over the 2.5 years or so I have been watching. Proud of you Norm.
Agree++
Bro my bro linked me this video. And I was going to message him saying how amazing of an interviewer this guy is! I'm actually so happy to see someone else really did notice!!! Shows this guy is a goat. Good for you for noticing! You'd probably be a good interviewer too!
Norm is an excellent reviewer. I'm glad you can find all these interesting people to interview.
Wow coming back to this 5 years later is CRAZY. Still don't understand why trackers cost so much?
probably got limited manufacturers for this kind of stuff. also profit margins haha
@@sherdogholmes576 Crazy, literally just a few weeks ago Tundra Labs(makes SteamVR dev kits) just announced they are making lighter, cheaper trackers. FINALLY in 2021
@@ScornfulSix for real, i’m excited for when tundra labs releases them. definitely a purchase for me as soon as they drop
Unlike other systems, hmd, contollers and trackers are responcible for tracking and calculating position, this require some computing power that costs. Valve dont take any fees to use technology and they dont require you to use electronics there ic partner provide, so the more this technology gets adapted more cheaper solution will show up, but due to way this techology work it will always be bit more expensive, still best tracking most open vr technology you can get for normal mortals prices.
Awesome interview Norm.
***** aine?
oh you mean the sword art online anime? yeah. i like sword art online also. and also i like anime and manga. and of couse i'm kirito don't mind with my username and my profile picture. i can change that. (or not.)
first interview I've seen where the interview has an actual clue!
Norn is a damn good interviewer.
Man, how far SteamVR has come...
SteamVR/Lighthouse was a technological dead-end. 🤷 Oculus/Facebook had a MASSIVE advantage in moving to the inevitable end-point of optical SLAM inside-out tracking thanks to their already optical tracking Constellation system.
@@Cooe. L brained take. Lighthouse is still far ahead of inside out tracking and will continue to be used in the professional industry for years to come.
@@Pendleton115 Monthly SteamVR/PCVR user numbers have been dropping for YEARS STRAIGHT now with no end in sight. Only an idiot thinks that is the future outside of niche use-cases (ala racing/flying simulators). The inevitable future is all-in-one standalone w/ inside-out SLAM tracking and only a braindead idiot denies that reality. Tethered-only VR is fucking dead and never coming back. 🤷 Varjo professional headsets support inside-out tracking for a damn reason. Same with Vision Pro.
@@Pendleton115 Also Lighthouse is most definitely NOT still "far ahead" of Meta's Insight inside-out. Meta's self-tracked Touch Pro controllers get INSANELY CLOSE to Lighthouse tracking quality with an even BIGGER tracking volume (bc 100% no occlusion) but with none of external base station tracking's shitty pain points. Lighthouse has its advantages, but they are mostly so niche as to be irrelevant to 99% of use-cases. Even full-body tracking is inevitably going inside-out w/ cameras vs using external trackers.
@@Cooe. cope and seethe bro cope and seethe
So you only need one beacon, two in different angles to avoid losing track when you turn back. And it has lots of redundancy for more reliability and accuracy. I'm totally buying this :D
Wow the people in this comments section are not nearly as excited as they should be! I thought we were a bunch of geeks! This is the future!
Yes the applications sound amazing and it will on vr, but they advertise it as a way to move in an environment in real life and virtual, and i just don't want to move to much in real life when all my senses are on other place, i feel this will lead to a lot of accidents
The Mack Attack It's only the future when it can achieve the following 4 tasks:
1. Not require wearing such an extensive piece of equipment on our faces that obstructs 100% vision.
Instead of wearing the devices, we need the devices to be external and mobile. A tethered drone (for power etc.. once battery technology improves wireless version could be released) using Ionic Thrusters for silent movement could track a user remotely.
As projection technology improves, we would see the user may only need to wear a pair of special clear lens wrap-around glasses which provide a surface for the drone to project your immersive display onto.. or it could project directly onto the surface of your eyes.
Directional audio projected to the user exclusively
We saw how, although 3D glasses and tv's and devices were all the rage.. they never quite took off to become the new mainstream like we first anticipated they would.
The main issues are.. a lack of industry standards, the requirement of wearing a powered headset that communicates using hefty wireless radiation waves right near your brain (the more data you need to transfer the stronger the frequency needs to be and for full VR it's likely a LOT of data.. plus latency handling means it will need to be sending large data at high speeds).
I'm sceptical of this technology reaching absolute mainstream within the next 2 years. I'd love it to happen but there are some serious social, medical and physical barriers that need to be overcome for that to happen.
2. 100% deal with the issues of VR Sickness
3. Become commercially affordable to the mainstream $200 price point for the headsets and around $60 for a pair of VR Gloves
4. VR Gloves currently out there don't provide the user with a joystick for navigating virtual environments effectively.
Until they are so responsive that you can use a "virtual thumbstick" with no latency the input sector of VR will also be a bottle-neck. Oculus Touch does look good but will it meet that $60 for a pair .. price-point?
@@JaxCavalera hello 6 years in the future :)
@@FleaOnMyWiener haha yep still waiting for that drone
@@JaxCavalera loll we can actually project low power lasers directly into the human eye I believe! I think there's a VR headset out there that does this, I saw a ThrillSeeker video on it
Tested always has the best and most informative VR coverage.
Yates is a legend!
What's on the valve-guy's t-shirt ?
Daan van gorp Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.
Brilliant piece of technology, I'm amazed. Also great interview by Norm!
We know what gets Norm excited, talking about the details of VR technology. That, or he just drank a can of Redbull before this interview.
If I was billionaire and a complete asshole I'd have all the levels of my favorite game built in real scale and then I'd play them with this.
Damian Reloaded OMG YES
Damian Reloaded There is a vr theme park being designed with that idea in mind. thevoid.com/
You wouldn't have to have that much money really. If u have a big backyard and lots of boxes and tape. Maybe some cheap metal frames. You could do it fairly cheap. Stairs would be an issue tho. Even doors would be easy. I reckon 20k would be enough. Or you could buy a house and just deck that out.
Josh Howson Owning real estate (a big backyard) isn't as cheap as 20k, normally. Kinda took that part for granted in your calculation :P
Deathbrewer I 2 as meaning if u were renting. But I suppose you wouldn't be able to have a structure in ya backyard.
I love the hexagon design, I wish the vive wands had kept that hexagon
Wish I was as intelligent as this guy.
Great interview on the working of Valve's "Lighthouse" positional/attitude system. Sounds like they're definitely open to making this available to all/any alternate uses (robots, drones, etc.).
The Valve team are a lot more forthcoming with information than Oculus - good interview.
The base stations need eventually to be wireless - I don't want wires everywhere.
***** Thanks! Can't wait to get my hands on one.
Tested has quickly become my favourite Channel on youtube. By a long shot.
What is the height and with of the light house? the box size.
How do you disambiguate multiple lighthouses on the sensor? Do multiple lighthouses do chain synchronization of some kind to avoid interference?
+Siana Gearz Yes, they sync between them, the old devkit had a sync cable, but the Pre has the option of wireless sync.
How do the base stations know when to turn on?
they dont, you have to plug and unplug them yourself.
They do connect to the headset over bluetooth but just for updates and turning them on and off when you open and close steamvr.
As all ways good questions Norm
My brain melted after three sentences.
Nice how both of you knew what you were talking about.
This is solid interview, good job Norman
glreat to see questions around how the lighthouse stations sync with each other. I wish I understood the tradeoff of not wiring them together
I really can't imagine this becoming a consumer product by Christmas. Although I could certainly see some form of consumer-available dev-kits by then.. This just does not seem to be very consumer-compatible in it's current form. It also seems a little over-complicated.
Everyone seems to have their hopes up that this will "come out" before the Oculus.. But I highly doubt that.
***** yeah the simple VR setup like Oculus and Sony Morpheus are a lot more consumer friendly , only the hardcore and Techies will even give the VR System by Valve a chance. very cool but seems super complicated for the Avg Consumer.
***** The HTC Vive consumer edition HMD is apparently shipping in November / December with this tracking system integrated. I am guessing that's what he is referencing when he is talking about a lot of these being available at christmas.
***** Alberto Martinez You can use just one Lighthouse base station and treat it the exact same way you would use Rift's camera or PS4's camera. It's actually less complicated because you don't even have to connect it to the PC/PS4. Even with one base station you will get a system with much bigger tracking volume, better precision, latency and accuracy. Rift's tracking is precise but not scalable (tracking more objects will be difficult, adding more cameras even more). Morpheus has problems with occlusion, loosing tracking, low vertical FOV of the camera and low Z-axis accuracy of tracking (depth is only estimated). Lighthouse is the only tracking system that fixes all these problems. Ironically, it's the only system that is actually consumer-ready from the technical quality and performance standpoint.
***** It's the other way around. Lighthouse is more accurate, faster, cheaper, scalable, consumer friendly and compatible than what Oculus is doing by far.
In fact it is so much simpler to implement that I'll be surprised if Oculus doesn't announce the switch to Lighthouse tracking before release. There is no practical reason to use a camera solution anymore.
Raydeus Cheaper you say? Really?! HTC exec: Expect “a slightly higher price point” for Valve’s Vive VR. It looks awesome don't get me wrong but it could be fairly expensive. Definitely more expensive than Oculus.
Slow your roll, Norm, he's not going anywhere. You're giving ME anxiety.
I foresee Television's first real-time non-reality based competition gaming show, where contestants move around on a huge game field (ex: football stadium) and combat each other in a VR fantasy world, tracking body and arm movements to simulate fight scenes using magic. A VR version of the game show Quest! XD Yep! Coming soon: VirtuaQuest: SF&F gaming gone professional. Live the dream!
Alan Yates is on another level - Carmacks nemesis
Getting my Google Cardboard Thursday.
So is re-vive cordless? If not, whats the point walking around in your room in vr? And what if you have a small room? I have more faith in Sony morpheus and OR with the omni threadmill.
why is the other video uploaded today - Catching Up - Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - 5/19/2015 - Private? used to be able to see these.
Jonathan Carr kinda what i was wondering...
Jonathan Carr I know Still Untitled is my bread and butter on Tuesdays because none of my web comics update on Tuesdays. Please make it public guys :'(
Jonathan Carr Probably because they were suppose to edit out something and they didn't. I watched it an hour or so ago before they took it down. It wasn't anything too major imo.
Jonathan Carr I hope they get it republished soon. I always enjoy SU:TASP videos and was really bummed when that one was taken down.
SteamVR/Lighthouse was super cool technology, but it was always a terminal technological dead-end. 🤷 There's a reason Oculus went optical IR over laser. It was the fastest way to get to the inevitable tracking end-point of inside-out optical SLAM tracking.
I used to use high powered laser systems in the US military and we had to be very careful about where we aim an IR laser because it may cause blindness. Would the lasers within the lighthouse ever cause eye damage over time?
slayemin I've worked on a similar system with rotating IR lasers that projects lines. The fact that the light is spread out in a line rather than focused on a point means that the energy hitting you diminishes very rapidly as you step away from the laser. Also, it's always spinning which means that it's spreading that light all over the room. The laser is also probably only a few mW... TL;DR other than if you're sticking your eye next to the lens, your eyes will see very little IR light.
So when Alan says the lasers can reach out to 20m but the limit is the syncing, couldn't we make a huge roomscale area with the current lighthouses and just use the sync cables and extend them?
+Scott Fanetti I see that as an option too. But my question was, can't we just use 2 lighthouses, say in a large area and just extend the sync cable,? Or does the sync cable have a length limit?
You can't do that yet. Still only supports two.
this is seriously some of the coolest shit ever so far and I can't wait to own it
Sometimes, whenever i eat M&Ms, I like to hold two m&ms in between my fingers and squeeze as hard as i can until one m&m cracks. I eat the cracked one and the one that didn't crack becomes champion, then i grab another m&m and force it to compete with the champion in this deadly game of m&m gladiators. I do this until I run out of m&ms, and when there is one left standing I send a letter to m&ms brand with the champion and a note
AlphaSaint98 Interesting narrative sibling
AlphaSaint98 Now i want to know if some colors are more rigid than others?
Thats a highly unfair method, you should do it in elimination of two.
AlphaSaint98 When you plagiarize something at least get it right. You're supposed to send the winning M&M back to the factory with a note that says "Use this one for breeding purposes."
AlphaSaint98 poor experimental technique
So spring is over - have any Vives been shipped yet? I have not heard so.
LKDesign lol
Nice! How this base stations will affect people eyes? If I just sit in my chair and play new Doom in VR someone could enter that room and lasers gets their way to eye. Whats then? I havn't any free room to dedicate it only for vr. Thanks.
I have 2 questions please :
- i use VR especially for racing and flying/space simulations , so it's mostly seated experiences, and by the way most of us will use their headsets in front of their PCs .. so my question is , do i need 2 lighthouses to be tracked? they are big, and honestly, i don't know where to put them in my living room.
-my second question is : will the tracking work correctly if i have a big mirror in my living room ?
ahmbouth
- Based on the information Alan provided it sounds like one Lighthouse base station is technically possible, but it will come down to how flexible the drivers are. So far it sounds promising, although occlusion will always be a problem with one base station.
- A mirror will mess up tracking if it bounces the lasers back to a sensor.
haze4peace
thanks for the reply :)
Good timing, I was thinking about position tracking for a new project and these lighthouses (XY tracers) would be a good option.
Also, when I first saw this, one of the first applications I thought of was as a household GPS system, for tracking small robots (Roombas?) or even pets really.
Hopefully some of this info will be open sourced, or at least easy to access for research.
Now that the retail versions are out, is there any way to know what has changed (if anything) from the details of this interview to now?
What is the life time of a Lighthouse? They work on bearings for sure this means they will wear in time becoming noisy. Is there a way to know how long as a lighthouse been used?
+Wolfox360 50 000 hours/6 years nonstop usage.
twitter.com/vk2zay/status/648078454752067584
why do u need 2 base stations? if you have a controller with 2 sensor thingys the station thing can see how close the two sensors are together to know how far it is duhhhh
will you be at maker in Atlanta GA?
Only 4 years ago, damn
Now it's 9 years ago😅
Thanks Alan for the good stuff!
that 20 seconds of time starting at 9:00 makes me very skeptical with his facial expressions on what their tech may be used for.
?
this makes no sense
Never forget. As bad as the Vive wands are, they could have definitely been worse lmao. I still massively respect them for being so ahead of the curve. If I don't say that I feel like I'll get beaten up by fellow nerds in the comments.
Great interview!
I wonder if an accessory could be developed for the Oculus so that this could be used with it.
Great Interview!
Putting bacons on you walls. Sounds good even tough i'd prefer beacons for VR.
Thanks for the upload but is there no untitled this week?
Would something such as Lighthouse work well with easily and accurately translating one's movements to an in-game avatar, such as an application like Facerig?
David Belmonte It would probably only work if it didn't cover your face, so transcribing facial expressions and such onto your avatar would probably have to wait until we have VR swimming goggles.
Edison Trent there's some interesting research on how to track facial expressions by checking for muscles that surround the area where the headset is to detect eyebrows raising. neat stuff!
Doesn't it just track the controllers? You would have to have sensors on your face.
David Belmonte The Lighthouse base stations are basically dumb devices. They don't do any calculations on their own. Its the sensors on the headset or controller that gathers the information for processing. So you would have to stick sensors to your face for it to pickup facial expressions.
9:26 This is big. This is REALLY big.
4:39 - Exposed class 3B laser. Fantastic, ruined eyes everywhere. I hope they removed the laser for the preview.
+MulleDK19 Nope.
Well, except for the person playing. Cause they'll be wearing a pair of goggles completely blocking it. On top of that, that warning is for direct, prolonged contact. It's simply a sticker they need to put on there, not necessarily "dangerous" in any way.
There is no danger when the Lighthouse is closed. When the front panel is cracked or completely gone like the video, you get exposure from a Class 3B laser which is so powerful you can't look away fast enough to avoid eye damage. So either they're crazy, or they removed the laser.
do you realise that the lighthouse he show is not plug in any power .......
4:40 Do you not see the lights and the rotating motors? It clearly has power.
What Happened to the "Catching Up Untitled Podcast" Video?
australia represent. onya alan
Now I get it 7 years later
So that’s how the Moon keeps the Earth in orbit and the planets keep the Sun in place!
Ok I'm an expert now. Now to the important question. How much content that will actually utilize the hand controllers will be available at launch? And Im not talking about tilt brush and a bunch of fruit ninja apps. But real games that will really show that this is worth the prime price tag.
Interesting new tech/product, but some people aren't going to stop saying Bay-Station sound like a rip off of Playstation... Some people, are stupid.
If you dont have titan or some freaky 980 sli's, dont even dream to use this. Its quite upsetting as i am myself on old gtx660 and not too keen upgrade right now.
I'm sure Still Untitled was here like 7 hours ago... Why'd you guys delete it?
He said "...base stations in the CURRENT design"
aha!
You nailed it guys, thank you ♥
Arg ! how did I miss this video ! ! !
ohh Gabe Newell ... what do you bestow upon me !
wouldn't it be cheaper and more efficient to do it the other way round where the controllers project the light and the light house calculates the position of controller rather than the controller track the light house. Kind of like the oculus has done
But then that induces inherent occlusion. I play Onward competitively, we cannot shoot rifles due to the front controller being occluded. Lighthouse solves that. The best VR system you can buy, the Valve Index, is the next generation of this tech.
@@evolicious thats a very fair point i overlooked
also important to note that it’d be much harder to have projections coming off a moving object. it’s much easier to keep the IR projections coming off a static point in space then have 3 variable movement IR emitters in a given space (HMD and controllers)
This is effing brilliant, man i love everything about this!
If this is in fact eye safe (?) Oculus should licence the tech!
well, its definitely eye safe, and oculus definitely didn't license it
When I heard it was going to be called the Lighthouse, I immediately thought of Tower of God...
Damn, I would’ve never understood what you were talking about until this year
11 mins solid talking, exactly what i am expecting
So do they actually project anything realtime?
its going to take up 2 outlets for the light house?? Thats kind of ridiculous.
a wild vk2zay appears!
I love the idea behind this but unfortunately I'm one of the many people that has not got an empty room in the house to use this with :/
Speedy Gonzalez vs roadrunner in a race?
😎 Thank you for this! 🙌🏼
So could I take 200 lighthouses, spread them around a big hall, and create a Laser Tag of the future?
30LayersOfKevlar
Vive cord only 3-5 meters..
Alexi GVS plug the cord into a wireless transmitter.
RedTriangle53
Will not work properly. Because of latency and bandwidth. Wireless is capable to transfer only 1080p/60fps.
HTC Vive 90hz and 2400x1080
@@AlexiGVS hello from the future :)
7 years later these simple base stations cost $500 in NZ. Great :-(
this guy doesn't blink very much... its freakin me out.
very cool but..I don't see the average consumer ( public) having a room where they can have all these lighthouse sensors set up all over the place. This thing will be a hit for commercial use in a Laser Tag arcade or haunted house, school gym but for the home...Nah
Alberto Martinez You don't need to have a big space to use this system. It can track you in a tiny space, just as easily as a large. The real limitation will be the games, and how much they require you to be up swinging your arms about. Which remains to be seen.
No steam controller? :(
1:59 trilaterating*
...re y..u sur...
Pretty neat interview
I registered about 10% of that.
L4d 3 CONFIRMED!!!!!!
我该如何申请技术许可？
This is cool awesome and great innovation but I just know VR is going to be like the wii remote. YES you CAN track your position around the room and you CAN do all this cool stuff and many people will. However the majority of titles and users will just end up sitting on the couch again much like the wii remote and rarely utilise this functionality.
Ryan Davies I'm hoping the lower development threshold will ensure all functionality is fully explored (mainly by indies), it should be a lot cheaper to publish a game for this than Nintendo's closed ecosystem.
lmfao this aged poorly
How can one give an interview with a Valve employee and not mention
ahem Half Life 3?
:'( no gabe
Arne Gentjens bit.ly/1HsnGoz
inb4 HL3
It says its a class 3b laser .Its quite high, so how does it protect from cancer?
hmm...couple of bacon on my walls
eric cartman as an adult?
fuck the vr shit I want half life 3
Far2noble thanks for sharing
***** sharing is caring
infango and communism
Rippertear - HD Daily Gaming Videos well ya