Holy crap man, I was listening to this before bed, and as I was falling asleep the video was kind of ending... but then the dratnos winning sound came in, and ill be awake for another 19 years.
What I think is funny is that the "open pathing" concept is either the greatest thing ever if you have a group you constantly run with but it is the worst thing ever in pugs. That is a take completely biased by group consistency.
Totally agree. It's the worst if you are used to doing the "pug route" and then out of nowhere the pug tank tries a different route and you just know it's gonna be a deplete
Every time I see these list I am reminded just how vast the difference is between people who pug and people who play premades. Because I have nothing but horrendous experiences with Underrot. Genuinely think across BFA and DF that it's the most bricked keys I've ever been in, even more so than Murozonds Rise.
That's interesting to read your perspective on this. My experience pugging was Underrot was the most free key out there and was my least favorite for that reason.
@17:45 They *did* bring back Eye of Azshara M+ back in SL Before Season 4 which was the first "official" season with prior-expansion dungeons, Legion Timewalking had its own set of M+ dungeons with a special Infernal affix. Eye of Azshara was one of them, along with BRH/Court/DHT/Nelth's Lair/Vault
Dorki's explanation of Atal Dazar last boss, hit too close to home. I cant count how many pugs would not listen to me telling them to stack just off boss
the best dungeons aren't painful to pug civilian keys for. freehold was excellent for that so it was very good. underrot was horrific for that so it was very bad.
Underrot with a PUG was totally different experience. Be it the trash pulls, or "body pulls" that should've been skipped, or the boss mechanics. A LOT of all these relied on Tanks to begin with but then also team work. The positioning on bosses were extremely important and also where to stack and where to face. It was always either one of the best and most fun runs, or the miserable with PUGs usually disbanding on Cragmaw. Here's a quick "small list" of group wide mechanics that could go either way. 1) Tank positioning Cragmaw and entire group needs to clear ticks + groups positioning as well 2) Tank positioning Sprecaller and once again rest of the group needs to clear mushrooms 3) EVERYONE had their own brilliant idea of how last boss worked where people deciding not to stack with tank, or tank not doing it right to begin with and then someone thinking it's BEST to stay near the wall without realizing the breath could (and DID) splash back off the wall.
My favorite memories about Shrine of the storm is joining pugs on bolstering weeks just for pure entertainment and seeing which mobs will be made into 40 man raid bosses before people start noping out and disband.
I just wanted to bring something up. Vanilla Ice Cream is not bland, Vanilla is a flavour that I specifically seek out as an ice cream as when it's made with actual Vanilla pods, it's amazing.
i loved the tree boss as a bdk, i was doing 26 keys with out clearing him my team can just chill while im stressing but its the most fun because i actually had to think about my cooldowns and one fuck up i was dead but it was so fun, got the heart pumpin
agreed on Eye of Azshara. Great, great M+. Flexible on where you get mob kill from, can mount, fair bosses (minus the Naga Witch, which eventually made Prydaz mandatory if tyrannical and high enough), the ship skip was great. Overall, my favorite in a good collection of Legion M+'s.
After thinking about it, I actually think the recipe for good m+ dungeons is pretty simple now. 1. Wide open, not cramped spaces 2. Short to medium in length 3. Big trash pulls 4. Interesting bosses
Hot Shrine of the storm take: I loved that dungeon because on the last boss as a healer my damage actually mattered. (big fat debuff boost) Edit: Ah dratnos hit upon this point, i commented too fast :D
Absolutely wild 5 of the dungeons on this list come from BFA. I enjoying doing M+ the most in this expansion, the only issue for me was having to roll for corruption. Once you could buy it, it got even better. (I only played for the last 6-8 months of the expansion after a lot of QOL was added).
I think a big part of the issue of the Tree boss in Waycrest, considering the "meta" for the season was that you often just had to pray the roots would go on the augvoker, because the augvoker couldn't help nuke the roots fast enough to save people. xD I also think you almost need to bring in an "average pug champion" player for reference. Someone that perennially plays a non-meta dps spec and just about manages to hit KSM by the end of the season. It's only in DF that I've really stepped up and started pushing keys harder rather than just doing raids, and while I fully appreciated at the time how some of the pre-DF dungeons would play very differently in a properly coordinated group, pugging mid teen level keys trying to push to 15's to get KSM... man that is some of the worst PUG experiences you can get, and it totally skews perceptions of certain dungeons for sure! Like the bosses in Gambit being a good example: the dragon boss, you guys said something along the lines of how having a good or bad tank made a big difference, but in the 13-15 range it was more "did the tank even know they had to do mechanics", and don't even get me started on those 13-15 level final boss pug players not knowing how to do the lines through the orbs... xD
Atal Dzar always has a special place in my heart. In BFA I was a mythic raider mostly and pugged for keys. Being a high DPS on server I feel like i carried so many pugs through AD and Yaz and it was rewarding. I haven't heard this much but Yaz in a high key in BFA with a SP in group was unreal. Spiders growing and walking crossways though streams of shadow apparitions all over the room forever on Tyrannical is some wild shit. BFA Underrot isn't the sexy pick but the true #1.
@@gruncleiroh5525i get that but with that many issues it shouldnt be eligible for top 10 ever. All it was good for is easy timed runs because you could wipe 46 times and still 2chest
It was mentioned in some text near the beginning, they didn’t include it because they didn’t want to eat hirumared’s lunch, and instead direct people to his video. They’re being respectful
13:50 if i could change m+ in any way i wanted, it wouldn’t be affixes or routing. It would be to just drop healthpools and make every dungeon sub 20:00’ or 25:00’ minutes. Short dungeons feel so much more rewarding and satisfying when you just CRUSH THEM
Atal’dazar as a pug only player would possibly be in my least favorite dungeon list. Entire dungeon was braindead and then pugs can’t do the last boss for shit 75% of the time. Such a fucking waste of time.
Nobody had Iron Docks sheesh I loved that dungeon, I also thought very highly of Sanguine Depths. Pretty sure I had the most fun doing M+ overall in Shadowlands, I liked every dungeon a lot other than Plaguefall.
Interesting that Halls of Atonement was only on two lists and so low. I feel like it we definitely see it in future seasons because it was so ironically Shadowlands and pug friendly
I agree with them that Underrot coming back took some poinst off for me but only because I have the worlds worst RNG and I was stuck in Underrot prison for a good 3 weeks where I only ran Underrot keys trying to get the damn fist weapon to drop for my DH
I feel like they nailed it with Gambit and Sanguine being the best 2 (motherlode uhhh yeah i disagree there) Both incredible, gambit is my 1 but sanguine depths is definitely top 3 for me, that place was fucking sick. Most interesting bosses, the theme was sick, and the gauntlet felt really good honestly.
I love that dorki thinks non MDI players just get confused when the dungeon isnt linear and run around like headless chickens into a wall in the starting room ahaa. Guy needs to pug a little hes got it too easy
Growl's top ten is the best simply because SD is #1. Also, I am totally disgusted that NOBODY mentioned Plaguefall. I know it gets a lotta flack for the MDI BS that happened, but holy shit that dungeon is amazing.
i get 2-3 hours, 5 nights a week to play. if they went down 5 minutes on their dungeon times, id be tickled. thats one more dungeon i get to clear every day
Eye of azshara will always be tainted because thats also when they gave hunters barrage, and thats the first dungeon where every one of them got to learn how to use it properly. but great dungeon
Algethar Academy is hands down the best dungeon Blizz have ever created. Mass AoE, no egregious mobs, great designs bosses (tree boss one of the best ever). 5% star buff at the start. What’s not to love? 😎
i feel like i'm smoking balls for loving junkyard so much. i loved the last season of BFA, and maybe it's the robots that people hated, but i think junkyard was so good
There is this one dungeon where u kill a professor who drinks like vials and after that you go through a part where you need to kill invisible spiders(?) fast enough while the boss tries unlocking a door? i know im a bit all over the place i just cant think of the name of the dungeon
Max laying down the ground rules about discussion at the start, but also being the biggest deviator and rabbit hole explorer is hilarious :D
My problem with this list is that half of these dungeons for the vast majority of an expansion sucked it took forever for them to be “fixed”
now imagine if he didn't have those rules, he'd be waay deeper into each and every one of those.
Holy crap man, I was listening to this before bed, and as I was falling asleep the video was kind of ending... but then the dratnos winning sound came in, and ill be awake for another 19 years.
LMAO my bad man it's a little loud in hindsight
@@fronkacean Well, I am still awake LMAO.
@@BiIboSwaggins gm
This is a super cool concept with the checking if someone has the dungeon higher on the list and if not discussing it. More of this please!
They would kill me with hammers
Dratnos is such a beast with these takes
Dratnos with the greatest quote lol. "they would kill me with hammers"
"They would kill me with hammers" is my new favourite Dratnos line
1:17:05
He's also right- DEATH TO SANGUINE DEPTHS
Let me introduce you to my friend: Northern Lion
1:17:46 *
@@quinnquinnquinn215 timestamping for myself as I enjoy the preamble, it really sends it home
I cracked up laughing for a solid few minutes in my car after “they would kill me with hammers”
What I think is funny is that the "open pathing" concept is either the greatest thing ever if you have a group you constantly run with but it is the worst thing ever in pugs. That is a take completely biased by group consistency.
The best is when there are popular routes that are common and also choices for interesting strats.
Totally agree. It's the worst if you are used to doing the "pug route" and then out of nowhere the pug tank tries a different route and you just know it's gonna be a deplete
0:09 😊
Every time I see these list I am reminded just how vast the difference is between people who pug and people who play premades. Because I have nothing but horrendous experiences with Underrot. Genuinely think across BFA and DF that it's the most bricked keys I've ever been in, even more so than Murozonds Rise.
😢😅
That's interesting to read your perspective on this. My experience pugging was Underrot was the most free key out there and was my least favorite for that reason.
underrot third boss on tyrannical = pug destroyer
I always pugged and I always thought underrot was an easier key, would always be the loot key for me
Dorki so funny calling the Echo HOV snapping "basic"
Because it is
@17:45 They *did* bring back Eye of Azshara M+ back in SL
Before Season 4 which was the first "official" season with prior-expansion dungeons, Legion Timewalking had its own set of M+ dungeons with a special Infernal affix.
Eye of Azshara was one of them, along with BRH/Court/DHT/Nelth's Lair/Vault
Dorki's explanation of Atal Dazar last boss, hit too close to home. I cant count how many pugs would not listen to me telling them to stack just off boss
Agree on Maw of Shouls, it was one of my fav ever. Loved running it over and over.
only because its 20 mins
the best dungeons aren't painful to pug civilian keys for. freehold was excellent for that so it was very good. underrot was horrific for that so it was very bad.
Underrot with a PUG was totally different experience. Be it the trash pulls, or "body pulls" that should've been skipped, or the boss mechanics. A LOT of all these relied on Tanks to begin with but then also team work. The positioning on bosses were extremely important and also where to stack and where to face.
It was always either one of the best and most fun runs, or the miserable with PUGs usually disbanding on Cragmaw. Here's a quick "small list" of group wide mechanics that could go either way.
1) Tank positioning Cragmaw and entire group needs to clear ticks + groups positioning as well
2) Tank positioning Sprecaller and once again rest of the group needs to clear mushrooms
3) EVERYONE had their own brilliant idea of how last boss worked where people deciding not to stack with tank, or tank not doing it right to begin with and then someone thinking it's BEST to stay near the wall without realizing the breath could (and DID) splash back off the wall.
And this is why it’s high on my personal list too like it was a super chaotic pug key which I enjoy greatly
51:58 I love Dratnos's response to Dorki. This is pure gold xD.
Great listen, really enjoyed this from start to finish
great content! please do another one with the worst m+, best raids, best bosses, etc etc!
My favorite memories about Shrine of the storm is joining pugs on bolstering weeks just for pure entertainment and seeing which mobs will be made into 40 man raid bosses before people start noping out and disband.
Growls take on Halls of Valor at 49:58 was SO needed. That dungeon sucks.
Growl in back loading bullets in a clip ready to unload on Halls of Valor was hilarious.
gooning to this
Dratnos with some major memorable quotes here! Love it!
Imagone not knowing EoA was a M+ dungeon brought back in Legion Timewalking
I just wanted to bring something up. Vanilla Ice Cream is not bland, Vanilla is a flavour that I specifically seek out as an ice cream as when it's made with actual Vanilla pods, it's amazing.
The Gingi slap is for me still a clip that brightens my day :D
i loved the tree boss as a bdk, i was doing 26 keys with out clearing him my team can just chill while im stressing but its the most fun because i actually had to think about my cooldowns and one fuck up i was dead but it was so fun, got the heart pumpin
A top 5/10 wishlist dungeons to get or return in m+ would also be cool
agreed on Eye of Azshara. Great, great M+. Flexible on where you get mob kill from, can mount, fair bosses (minus the Naga Witch, which eventually made Prydaz mandatory if tyrannical and high enough), the ship skip was great. Overall, my favorite in a good collection of Legion M+'s.
Fronk appreciation comment
Last season of m+ was goated imo. Gonna be hard to top that season in terms of the dungeon pool
After thinking about it, I actually think the recipe for good m+ dungeons is pretty simple now.
1. Wide open, not cramped spaces
2. Short to medium in length
3. Big trash pulls
4. Interesting bosses
Prime content. From a pug, no coms tank/healer: can't say I agree on all of it, but a lot of good info and viewpoints here.
Dorky is becoming more and more that "I don't like it because you like it character" xD
omg no the Other Side? It's such a complete dungeon
Thanks for this boys - great listen
I see, Kings' Rest won HANDEDLY right from the start! 👌👌
Max making WoW lists is the content I live for. I just love lists.
Putting Azure Vaults in the discussion is crazy to me.
Hot Shrine of the storm take: I loved that dungeon because on the last boss as a healer my damage actually mattered. (big fat debuff boost)
Edit: Ah dratnos hit upon this point, i commented too fast :D
Absolutely wild 5 of the dungeons on this list come from BFA. I enjoying doing M+ the most in this expansion, the only issue for me was having to roll for corruption. Once you could buy it, it got even better. (I only played for the last 6-8 months of the expansion after a lot of QOL was added).
I think a big part of the issue of the Tree boss in Waycrest, considering the "meta" for the season was that you often just had to pray the roots would go on the augvoker, because the augvoker couldn't help nuke the roots fast enough to save people. xD
I also think you almost need to bring in an "average pug champion" player for reference. Someone that perennially plays a non-meta dps spec and just about manages to hit KSM by the end of the season.
It's only in DF that I've really stepped up and started pushing keys harder rather than just doing raids, and while I fully appreciated at the time how some of the pre-DF dungeons would play very differently in a properly coordinated group, pugging mid teen level keys trying to push to 15's to get KSM... man that is some of the worst PUG experiences you can get, and it totally skews perceptions of certain dungeons for sure! Like the bosses in Gambit being a good example: the dragon boss, you guys said something along the lines of how having a good or bad tank made a big difference, but in the 13-15 range it was more "did the tank even know they had to do mechanics", and don't even get me started on those 13-15 level final boss pug players not knowing how to do the lines through the orbs... xD
Dorki saying "fish stick" and dratnos chuckling like a damn teenager is big vibes
The seed clip is legendary
Atal Dzar always has a special place in my heart. In BFA I was a mythic raider mostly and pugged for keys. Being a high DPS on server I feel like i carried so many pugs through AD and Yaz and it was rewarding.
I haven't heard this much but Yaz in a high key in BFA with a SP in group was unreal. Spiders growing and walking crossways though streams of shadow apparitions all over the room forever on Tyrannical is some wild shit. BFA Underrot isn't the sexy pick but the true #1.
How is Fall in your top 10, 3 months ago y'all put it barely in C tier, it has so many issues
It has issues as a dungeon with role play, the map, m0 tuning, and other things but as a spammable key it's goated
@@gruncleiroh5525i get that but with that many issues it shouldnt be eligible for top 10 ever. All it was good for is easy timed runs because you could wipe 46 times and still 2chest
The list is based on personal preference. That’s his personal preference list lol
I DIED LAUGHING Waycrest Manure!
The averagea timer for DF dungeons is currently 35.6 mins? Might be tough to beat with 30 average in TWW
BIS trink in shrine for Sin…that dungeon grew on me and I loved it.
The comparison to hirumareds list is missing sadly, that would have spiced this up by a ton
It was mentioned in some text near the beginning, they didn’t include it because they didn’t want to eat hirumared’s lunch, and instead direct people to his video. They’re being respectful
Theater of Pain has a special place in my heart ♥
I did pugs in atal dazar and going right sucked ass. Left was still easier than right in a bug, yet everyone still went right
13:50 if i could change m+ in any way i wanted, it wouldn’t be affixes or routing. It would be to just drop healthpools and make every dungeon sub 20:00’ or 25:00’ minutes. Short dungeons feel so much more rewarding and satisfying when you just CRUSH THEM
Absolute banger of a video.
ML will always have a special place in my heart of all the wow dungeons, it was my first timed +20
Great video, v well edited fronk keep it up dude
Atal’dazar as a pug only player would possibly be in my least favorite dungeon list.
Entire dungeon was braindead and then pugs can’t do the last boss for shit 75% of the time. Such a fucking waste of time.
Yeah but if they didnt absolutely ruin the last boss...coulda been a fun speed run pug dungeon
@@ThePolarpop could have, but, they did unfortunately.
Really great content and I don't do M+ any more.
Nobody had Iron Docks sheesh I loved that dungeon, I also thought very highly of Sanguine Depths. Pretty sure I had the most fun doing M+ overall in Shadowlands, I liked every dungeon a lot other than Plaguefall.
Growl making me wish I could go back and play sanguine depths with a new mindset
Would be cool to see a list that's not all about the great push or mdi or high level keys and just about enjoyment or lore
7:31 At this moment, Growl and Dratnos became my favorites for the episode lol
Also Fronk is god tier
I can't believe the global combat on the sanguine depths gauntlet wasn't mentioned.
Growl fuckin BASEDDDDDDDD. Sanguine Depths OWNS
Interesting that Halls of Atonement was only on two lists and so low. I feel like it we definitely see it in future seasons because it was so ironically Shadowlands and pug friendly
Growl is based af. I have such fond memories healing SD that was an amazing dungeon.
Junkyard is #1 dungeon ever made.
Same. Liked the bi pulls and bosses
I was looking for the comment. Not one mention of junkyard at all. What a banger
Maw of Souls, let's go!
Ragefire Casm. No joke it’s probably my favorite dungeon in totality.
maw of souls 1st blackrook hold 2nd freehrld 3rd for me! So fun.
100% agree with Growl's number 1
Galakrond, and shrine of the storm is two of my "worst of all time" dungeons. Just goes to show how people like different things :D
"Here comes the forest"🤣 48:40
I agree with them that Underrot coming back took some poinst off for me but only because I have the worlds worst RNG and I was stuck in Underrot prison for a good 3 weeks where I only ran Underrot keys trying to get the damn fist weapon to drop for my DH
I feel like they nailed it with Gambit and Sanguine being the best 2 (motherlode uhhh yeah i disagree there) Both incredible, gambit is my 1 but sanguine depths is definitely top 3 for me, that place was fucking sick. Most interesting bosses, the theme was sick, and the gauntlet felt really good honestly.
Nah Motherlode is great. I think on teeming weeks it sucked for people the most.
Great video idea goodjob
Banger vid as always.
Speaking about top 10 m+ dungeons, hope blizzard brings back awakened affix again some time its 100% the best and most fun affix they ever did.
cant wait for your next 4h video about your top 3 npcs in the game.
Algethar and Freehold definitely had the most fun pulls, coming from a player who doesnt go past 20
Great video! #TeamSargeras #TeamDetheroc Azure Vaults, SoS and Eye was/is too big/too long. I loved Waycrest Manor, lol!
growl's favorite is SO based
Where’d you get that wallpaper? So sick
Was excited to watch the video, saw Growl's name, see ya
The stupid kid bit was so fucking funny
now please a list with top 10 worse dungeon so hopefully blizzard knows what to not do again in the future
Surprised Mechagon dungeons didn't get mentioned. I guess having Junkyard bots carrying the dungeon wasn't great.
I love that dorki thinks non MDI players just get confused when the dungeon isnt linear and run around like headless chickens into a wall in the starting room ahaa. Guy needs to pug a little hes got it too easy
Honestly though, that’s an accurate description of so many of the pugs I’ve been in.
Growl's top ten is the best simply because SD is #1. Also, I am totally disgusted that NOBODY mentioned Plaguefall. I know it gets a lotta flack for the MDI BS that happened, but holy shit that dungeon is amazing.
i get 2-3 hours, 5 nights a week to play. if they went down 5 minutes on their dungeon times, id be tickled. thats one more dungeon i get to clear every day
lower kara was so bad that it almost made me quit the game
Halls of Atonement on top, hopefully we have it back in TWW.
Just here to shout out to Max that I have Shrine of the Storm in my top 5
Eye of azshara will always be tainted because thats also when they gave hunters barrage, and thats the first dungeon where every one of them got to learn how to use it properly. but great dungeon
Aren't the chains in nelth a damage amp now? They used to do damage like TD cannons.
best dungeon was seat of the triumvirate in legion
m+ invitational was just hilarious with the amount of wipes
Algethar Academy is hands down the best dungeon Blizz have ever created. Mass AoE, no egregious mobs, great designs bosses (tree boss one of the best ever). 5% star buff at the start. What’s not to love? 😎
i feel like i'm smoking balls for loving junkyard so much. i loved the last season of BFA, and maybe it's the robots that people hated, but i think junkyard was so good
Ok hear me out
Black Morass because lore is cool
as a kid, i thought the caverns of time dungeons were so cool.
Chill lore dungeon but it’s not M+
There is this one dungeon where u kill a professor who drinks like vials and after that you go through a part where you need to kill invisible spiders(?) fast enough while the boss tries unlocking a door? i know im a bit all over the place i just cant think of the name of the dungeon
I found it! Plaguefall :)
good edit.