The Crucible being an amalgamation of all life and it’s effect on the misbegotten could explain the state of Godwyn’s body. The Prince of Death’s form is a terrifying mix of squid, fish, spider, man. Since the Erdtree can’t revive him exactly, perhaps his soulless living body was subject to the power of the Crucible
That's a really good point. I saw a theory, also, where Rykard ate Godwyn's body and that caused his transformation? Or something like that? I can't remember what video said that, but they made a good argument.
I think it is more likely that Godwyn became a parody of the Erd tree, which recycles energy from the dead back into the world. As things died without those souls and death root spread, their physical bodies were added to Godwyn's like a tumor, without any of the grace that recycled the energy. Godwyn is basically The Thing.
Ive seen a video of how someone took a closer look at him and hes just a humanoid with a fish tail stuck in roots and the face also doesnt have any squid things so make it just humab and fish mix
@@maxderrat The crucible is the old one seen in demon's souls... The old one was a magazine of souls (similar concept of crucible, as a storage of melted metals and wasted materials), that shrouded everything in a deep fog. Maybe the crucible is a concept presented by the two fingers, or probably it's a similar power representing in the spiritual sequel of dark souls, that is a spiritual sequel of demon souls 😅 Seriously, you can't understand elden ring deeply withouth playing ds1 and ds3... But even demon's souls and bloodborne help you to understand them (aren't great ones presents in ds3 and elden ring? Pilgrims buterflies, angels of ringed city and the final boss of ranni's quest). I think that every game is built on the "ashes" of previous games like this: Demon's bad ending Ancient time of ds1 (founded on the old one's trees) Ds1 cicle Ds2 Ds3 - Bloodborne (as a painted world) Ds3 ringed city and disgregation Dark age Crucible era Dragon's age Stonage Elden ring
I love the small in-Fromsoftware universe that Dragons always have a mineral biology and origin. Goes Very well with the Ancient vibe and lore that the crucible seams to implie. The " primordial sea " that created all life on earth in our World. The Common ancestor of all life that evolved from it. Amazing~ Aaaand, amazing video!
Not to discount your hypothesis, but it is useful to note that there were many ancient associations between serpents and immortality. The shedding of their skin was a sign of rebirth.
@@vde1846 it originates from Japanese folklore surrounding serpents being related to dragons, possessing a flawed version of their immortality. Referenced in both Sekiro and Elden Ring by FromSoftware.
@@Skygrove yep, which brings me back to darksouls. Are the primordial serpents trying to screw with the ages to prolong their immortality? Is that why kaathe said frampt "lost his sense" in allying with gwyn in prolonging fire? Maybe the passing of the ages allows the primordial serpents to shed their skin? After all, dark souls states of serpents: "if one's shackles are cause for discontent, perhaps its time for good old fashioned greed."
@@JayWhipp1e dont have any sens that u mean, are aloot more of explanation and are ez to funadmental than is DS universe, like idk the creators are japaneses then they got that in their culture, or, are legacy and a little easter egg of culture, really have no any that share the same universe, the end of the DS3 was perffect if really mean the end of Darksouls the end of that age, let it die in peace, now elden ring obviusly will have aloot of easter eggs and legacy thing like Forlom cave, or gael tunnel but that just that legacy name for our the players we can say oohh look at that i remember the big Gael the slave knight but that no mean gael was in the land in betwen in some point that have no senses, in fact aloto of the lore in elden ring simple dont fix in DS universes
The Godskin Noble's hood: "Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." Godskin Nobles have dragon tails, and Godskin Apostles can stretch their bodies, not unlike the serpent-men in Volcano Manor. There are some other concepts that tie into this, such as dragon communion - Yura states that supping too often on dragons will transform you into one, and look what happened to Praetor Rykard. It should be noted that the Remembrance of the Dragonlord indicates that its namesake Placidusax was actually Elden Lord before there even was an Erdtree. There's indication from the Finger Reader in Roundtable Hold that the Greater Will is displeased with Queen Marika (she seems to have, as you've also indicated, prolonged the 'cycle' by shattering the Elden Ring and caused the enervation of the Lands Between.) I wonder if perhaps that dragonkind displeased the Greater Will and needed to be overthrown by the Erdtree Order, which would explain if dragons warred with the gods. It makes sense as to why the Godskin would desire their physiology; physiology that stood against the gods, same as the sentinels. The Godskin Apostles wield the Black Flame, a god-slaying force that had its power sealed away with Destined Death, and so this implies that the Godskin were active early in the time of Marika's Erdtree Order and possibly before it; also explains why you run into the Godskin Duo in Farum Azula, who could well be after the power of both Destined Death and the dragons, or either-or. Anyway I'm just throwing out concepts but I do agree implicitly with the idea that Order and Chaos are both constituent elements of reality and I feel by excising chaos so that only order reigns, you risk enervation.
I agree with this! Though i would say the tails of the godskin nobles look much more like serpents than dragons. Dragons being mostly craggy and stonelike, where as the godskin's tails are slick and serpentine
I don't think Greater will was connected with Ancient dragons actually. If I remember Placi's rememberance it said something along the lines that his god fled and he continues to wait his return. GW might have been the one that caused the Dragon god to flee and caused the order to shift.
You may be right, actually. It does seem to be that the Lands Between is a place where outer gods are constantly vying for dominion, to establish their own order, and most of the endings are you assisting a champion or emissary of such a god, though the concepts can coexist--his god fleeing might be metaphorical, the idea of whatever divine connection he had with the gods has ebbed. That could be the greater will, or whatever the greater will was at the time. The greater will could even just be the expression of whatever gods reign in the Lands Between, a mask worn by many over eons. Also re: the distinction of serpent tails and dragon tails, that's true but I tend to think of dragons and serpents as stemming from the same mythological idea of the ancient enemy of mankind, the reptiles that lost the battle for the world to the mammals, the serpent in the Garden of Eden, etc. Our true nemesis, over which we triumphed to own the world.
@@michalzaprt5602 I have evidence that proves the opposite, placidusax is an elden lord and this title seems exclusive to the greater will, no other lord connected with other outer gods uses the title of elden lord, it is always other titles such as The lord of frenzied flame, the lord of night prophesied by the nox and Mohg who calls himself lord of blood, none of them seek the title of Elden lord they are all different titles, elden is directly related to the greater will like the Elden beast and the Elden ring itself, the ancient dragons also have the membranes and their flesh as can be seen in the exposed flesh of placidusax as being made of gold, placidusax is also one of the only enemies in the game alongside the Elden beast that have golden flames, Farum azula has the image of an Elden ring and as we know the elden ring is the elden beast itself, in the original Japanese the kanji used to describe the god of placidusax is not the same one used to describe the outer gods (sotonaru kami) which indicates that this god was probably in fact a god like Marika who served as a vessel for the Elden Ring in his previous form
Something I'd like to add is about the Law of Regression and how the Crucible Feather talisman refers to "devolution." I think that this is integral to everything you mentioned here, especially the Misbegotten AND the Omen. I believe that the Omen are a sign that the Erdtree makes mistakes with new life, bringing even noble demigods into the world with regressive aspects of The Crucible. Horns, tails, etc. Maybe this is also why the Crucible Knights are now hated by most?
Very well done video as usual Max. I only have one minor correction the Snakemen in volcano manor are revealed to be birthed from sick experiments with a willing human women test subject and snakes, it is hinted that it's the god eating snake specifically. This info is from Rya's quest line.
Fun fact, dragons and the nature of religion are two of the favorite themes of George R. R. Martin. One of his most underrated works is the short story "The Way of Cross and Dragon".
Before the "greater will" became the main outergod there was the god of the dragons. The god of the dragons ErdTree was the "crucible" that was the form it took. The "greater will" changed the crucible's form to what we now see the Erdtree.
If this is true the greater will clearly took control of dragon society afterwards, there are numerous connections between dragons and the greater will
@@davisiotta489 This was my theory two years ago it seems to be wrong about the Erd Tree. But true about the Dragons having a different outer God from "The Greater Will"
@@RumoredAtmos I particularly disagree, the way the greater will is present in society and to a certain extent literally within dragons makes me think that these creatures can even be crafted by the greater will itself, the fact that dragons, in addition to having stone scales, also golden flesh as can be seen in the membranes of the ancient dragons' wings and in the exposed flesh of placidusax, so this leads me to believe that the influence of the greater will is already present in the ancient dragons since their creation, isn't it curious how even presenting all the characteristics of the crucible do dragons seem to be the only ones that possess these characteristics in an orderly way? all other forms of life that touch the crucible have the abnormal and chaotic growth of these characteristics in their bodies unlike dragons who have them in an organized way throughout their body, for me this is an influence of the order of the greater will even in the primordial form and chaos of life, I believe that the one great is the primordial void that began the universe while the crucible is the primordial form in which life originated when the greater will divided life into individual beings, more than the god of order I believe that the greatest will is the outer god of life (or at least sentient life) I believe that what created the ancient dragons was the arrival of the elden beast in the golden star, the only other race of creatures with stone skin are the onyx lord and they were born from the impact of a meteor in the lands between, I believe that something similar may have been the cause of the creation of dragons and in this case I believe it was the impact of the golden star on the lands between, this would explain why dragons appear to be at the same time made of minerals and beings of primordial life
The way the Serpents attack similar to the Godskin Apostle had me intrigued. Could easily just a reused animation but knowing From feel like there could be some link there? Godskin sounds pretty epic and a good counter to dragons/serpents. EDIT: to clarify the attack where they elongate and go for a strike
theres a co relation to the volcano manor, flame of frenzy, and gloom eyed queen. as well as ranni having direct dealings with rykard during the shattering and night of the black knives. is ranni the gloom eyed queen? probably not as melina seems to be pointed in that direction (still only speculation since no dlc exists yet)
Small note: In many cultures and languages (especially old languages) the words for snakes/serpents and dragons/wyrms are interchangeable. This might be important.
Contrary to what the video suggests, I don't believe that snakes became dragons but rather the opposite, I believe that snakes are descendants of dragons, I think that statues of winged snakes are a representation of snakes from past generations where they still had wings reminiscent of their dragon ancestors
Im not convinced that Souls series shares a world with Elden Ring, but it certenly shares many concepts and therefore we can indeed help tho cautiously develop understanding of elden ring lore thanks to our expirience with souls series.
I think you can explain the story without reference to Dark Souls 2. According the the Gilded Greatshield “Metal greatshield coated with gold. Carried by knights loyal to Godrick. The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that became the Erdtree.” Additionally, there are mentions of red tinged gold in various other description. Based on that, I think primordial matter may be the blood/energy within the the Dragons. I also think Humans were made from this energy as well. An item called the Crucible Scale Talisman hints at this “A talisman fashioned from a scale that embodies the aspects of various creatures. Said to have grown on the human body long ago. A vestige of the crucible of primordial life. Born partially of devolution, it was considered a signifier of the divine in ancient times, but is now increasingly disdained as an impurity as civilization has advanced.” Base on that I think ancient human were the descendants of Dragons. The Erd Tree was most likely made by stealing the primordial dragons energy. In the current day of the game, I think this is why Queen Marika started all the wars. The kingdoms waring with each other are are constantly killing each other, releasing what little primordial energy still exists with them. I also think this is why death was sealed, so the tarnished can kill enemies and release this energy. Once dead, it’s only a matter of time before they revive and can continue the process all over again. Just wanted to share my mind is currently at with the story/lore.
You mention people turning themselves into dragons, and even in Elden Ring as you consume dragon hearts at the Church of Dragon Communion in order to learn dragon attacks, your character begins to become more draconic too. My character now has dragon eyes.
Crucible looks like the ganishka made beherit in berserk. Just a bunch of dudes/monsters in a net. From which ganishka turned into a giant obelisk creature and then a spiral tree
Was the frenzy flame ending not about returning everything together? I feel like the frenzied flame might be the closest thing to what the crucible look like.
Wow, what a great video. I just had a thought about how, in DS and in ER, Dragons are always the first after the trees to inhabit the earth. It makes sense to me that the dragons are the first creatures that derive from the crucible. The crucible is every aspect thrown together and it's very fitting, since dragons are also a wild mixture of attributes (wings, four legged, stone scales, some kind of elemental breath, giant size). They combine attributes of different animals and even elemental forces. Like, their whole existence is a testimony of the crucible, kinda. Just some food for thought.
I would refer to Smoughtowns videos on the godskin apostles and volcano manor/rykard. Very in depth and explains a lot about serpents. They’re not related to dragons.
Man, I really don't like the Greater Will interfering with our reality. I initially had hoped that the Frenzied Flame was simply going to wipe out everything and leave nothing, but when I learned that it is essentially just another hand (lol) of the Greater Will I was immediately hostile to it.
I think there is a link between the Elden Ring being symbolic of the entirety of the Lands Between, and something that was constantly being vied over by beings of great power like the outer gods, the fell gods and other gods and goddesses (unseen, rot, etc.). Whatever the Elden Ring consisted of would then be reflected in the Lands Between. By removing the greater rune of destined death from it, Marika also removed the possibility of proper deaths, possibly in an attempt to stifle Godwyn's apparent death (maybe)? By shattering the Elden Ring, she inevitably also shattered the Lands Between (and herself, as she had conjoined with it), which was why the default ending where we attempt to mend her was called the Age of Fracture (we were not able to completely find all pieces of the shattered runes as there were smaller fragments, possibly in the form of rune arcs). The mistake, then, by the Greater Will would be to assimilate its own golden power with the Elden Ring in an attempt to make the power grow via influencing more and more users of its grace, dying and returning the power back to the Erdtree, and reissuing it out to newer users. As Marika prevented beings from actually dying properly, the power given out was also prevented from returning to the Erdtree, thus draining the Greater Will of power gradually instead of growing it as intended. To cut losses, it is in the best interest of the Greater Will to then destroy everything like hitting the reset button and to start over again with newly implemented changes to standard operating procedures. We can see even the two-fingers cronies encouraging us to kill all demi-gods and retrieve their great runes when the two-fingers were perceived heralds of Order.
I like how the crucible is basically the soil of which roots take hold. It's probably not a coincidence then that Placidusax, the original elden lord of the dragon's looks like a seed with two sprouts coming out when you meet him.
I appreciate the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion music in this video. That was a great soundtrack. Sounds like the song Auriel's Ascension. Jeremy Soule is one hell of a composer.
Just a little correction, the man serpents aren't Rykard's previous followers that merged with serpents, they are the offspring of the god devouring serpent after it had merged with Rykard. All of his old men got eaten/hunted to extinction.
I do not personally find the idea that the Souls series exists within the same continuity as the other FromSoft games very persuasive, nor especially interesting. I do, however, agree that it is fruitful to cross reference the deeper aspects of the games for context. After all, they are all made with the same creative voice, and in the same spirit.
There is something in Hinduism that has helped me put a spin on this. The Kalpa. These worlds are echoes of eachother. The soul of the creator is present in every one, but the order of things is different each time. I'm more aware of Elder Scrolls and its use of the term than Hinduism's, but both encompass the same feel.
Why does such a bad opinion keep getting repeated? It's like people repeating 2+2=5 randomly. It doesn't matter if you find it persuasive or not, they are related because of the Elden Beast arena and the arch trees that are in the game, there is no discussion to be had there.
I wonder if Crucible is just an actual crucible that needs some heat source, giant flame or chaos flame for example, to spew out all types of chimera life forms from its primordial goop that it has inside. Godwyn is dipping into unheated Crucible.
You say at 11:08 that chaos was locked away to ensure eternal order, however it wasn't until the genocide of the nomadic merchants that the flame of frenzy was summoned (written on the nomadic merchant armor set). So perhaps the outer god representing chaos has been around, but it wasn't until recently it could manifest an envoy like the Golden Order did with the Elden Beast
Isn't it great and so interesting that, in a really meta way, what the characters are doing all of the time throughout the game is just interpreting the words of The Greater Will, the Free Fingers and many more god-forms? I mean, they're just like us reading item descriptions. They never had, and will never have, the full picture. Even Marika seems work on her own maybe because she just doesn't know what the Greater Will wants. Maybe she even invented the whole concept from the beginning. I love the new dimensions in which this lore works, I think religion and spiritual beliefs are portraid in all its complexity here. PS: I'd love to see a video digging into Godskin Apostles. They seem as interesting as the Crucible but equally obscure. There are little pieces of info here and there about their purpose and who they served in the past but it doesn't seem quite clear how they operate and specially how did Marika and Maliketh made use of them once they defeated the Gloom Eyed Queen.
The observation on the crucible incantations describing a dragon was absolutely genius well done! I'm so happy you are pursuing the connections between the games, you seem to be the only one out there doing it, your analysis of these games are on another level, and while I'm no fan of alchemy I think Miyazaki is. There is such a lack of big picture thinking of these games, mostly people are just in the weeds or obsessing over tiny details that don't actually matter. Most lore videos on these games are incredibly boring, yours are the only videos I think are worth while and sometimes Richard Pilbeams.
I guess you missed the man serpent ashes in the description it states they didnt show up until after rykard was ingested by the immortal serpent. To be accurate if you wanted to say that the immortal serpent was a imperfect dragon then I can agree with your theory
Ever since I heard that there were knights named after a crucible, my immediate thoughts were to think of the places we go in Dark Souls to burn and stoke the flame
I think the crucible will look like the flower shape that is on the spear. Also maybe Gurrang-Maliketh may have appoched the crucible to be so ''beastlike''. He was the half-brother of Marika, but clearly doesn't look like a Numen.
I have some food for thought I'd love to be expanded on in a future video I can't help but think of Bloodborne and its lovecraftian influence and wonder if, much like how parts of Dark Souls and Sekiro have integrated themselves in Elden Ring, if lovecraftian horror plays a part in the backstory of Elden Ring. Like, the fingers are bizarre looking beings that I believe come from outer space much like The Greater Will and the Void Born. I'm also inclined to believe the fingers function as some kind of antenna for communication with the greater will. Has anyone noticed that the 6 divine towers are arranged on the map equal distances from each other and how several of them have fingers at the top, like they're communicating with the greater will or some other cosmic being? And why does the greater will even meddle in the affairs of human kind in the lands between? And what's the relationship of the void Born to the greater will? I can't help but be reminded of how Ebrietas was a cosmic entity being worshipped by the church and how that parallels to the worship of the Erdtree which is also a creation of a cosmic entity. The greater will could be some cosmic horror that we don't even understand. Also the Elden Ring itself reminds me of the glyphs from Bloodborne.
I think these are conclusions already consolidated in the community, outer god are practically confirmed seeing how Mohg worships The Formless Mother and various items in game refer to an outer god of Rot that was sealed away by the flowing sword tracher of Malenia
I like to imagine it like this: there's a whole universe (or multiple) of the outer gods, and we as tarnished are only aware of the ones that, for whatever reason, take an interest in our world. Like imagine the perspective of an anthill in a family garden. If they were intelligent, maybe they would form a religion around their god, I.e. the little boy of the family who comes and stares at them and gives them crumbs of food to watch them swarm over it. They might also be aware of a few other gods, more mysterious, rarely seen and perhaps even hostile (the rest of the family who don't care about ants or want to kill them, but who are in the garden sometimes nonetheless) and perhaps they would conceive of some sort of pantheon and hierarchy between their gods. They would have no idea about the entirety of human society going on outside the garden walls, and would be unable to conceive of it anyway. I like to think of it like this, that the outer gods are an entire species on a totally different level from us External from the bubble we call the world, and just a small number of them happen to take a passing interest in us resulting in our knowing of their existence. They might literally be god children in a greater god society who are the only ones who like to play with our particular living playset, as we would be from their perspective. That could explain their motivations - nothing that happens in the lands between could meaningfully affect their lives, transcendent as they are, so perhaps the outer gods are just the ones who are entertained by poking the world in various ways to see what happens
The crucible is probably the god that the dragon lord was waiting for. I think that the crucible could be the elden beast. It makes since since the tree took time to develop. The dragons being immortal probably worshiped the crucible until it transformed into the erdtree. That’s why they “lost” their god.
Also it blatantly proven the dragons and the golden order had somewhat of an alliance. The dragon cult started by Godwyn. Many of leyndells soldiers use lightning, ect.
You've more than redeemed yourself with this follow-up. I've completely abandoned other creators for keeping misinformation out there... so your dedication to keeping your content in peek quality will keep me dedicated to watching and supporting your videos at all times. Thank you to all of Maxs' Patrons for keeping him doing what he loves!
Excellent video maybe Wyrm dragons are the completed final form for the serpent men in rykards place. I find it interesting that Elden pretty much combines both dark souls lore and bloodborne lore.
I like to think the Crucible is more like the universe before the Big Bang, infinitely hot and Infinitely Dense, or akin to the Flame of Frenzy. A great burning existence that's not really Flame but can't be described differently.
Not sure if it's related but Chinese folklore also states snakes are potentially "candidates" or precursors to becoming dragons if they can live long enough. Some Slavic folklore suggests the same. So I think the snake -> dragon connection definitely has legs.
I don't think the elden ring with its golden order creates the concept of death. Rather, it's a machination to control how a soul is recycled. Its goal is to create perfect beings, or at least, get rid of omens--which is a possibility if a soul is returned to the crucible instead. The rune of death represents a power, not a concept. It's a power capable of killing gods and demigods. Marika sealed it away so that it can't be used against her lineage. Such power is useful for the greater wills conquest against others. Deaths for others still occurs, as you can still see people getting buried in catacombs located next the erd tree roots.
Some good points, though I don't think I'll ever buy the shared universe theory. So, here's my points of contention. We know that rykard didn't become immortal per se, but that it was a side effect of fusing with the serpent god, who is inherently immortal. We also know that this snake assimilates the power and psyche of whoever they consume, that's how rykard fused with it and the whole point of the volcano manor grooming champions, and how the serpent was worshipped in Mt gelmir long before rykard. These statues could very easily depict the snake's previous form. It's also revealed that the serpent men came as the result of horrific rituals meant to produce loyal soldiers after rykard was abandoned by his men. Chaos and order don't seem to represent the ideals we automatically associate with them. Order is not simply the rules by which the natural world abides, it's also the rules that allow the natural world to exist. Even the crucible when presented as an amalgamation of aspects of different organisms requires order, as all these different features wouldn't exist without the rules to define them individually. Chaos on the other hand presents the complete absence of rules, and therefore the absence of existence, unleashing it upon the world means a return to the time before the crucible, when all was one and one was nothing. Unlike the age of dark in dark souls, existence is impossible under chaos, and it'd be safe to assume that even the outer gods would be consumed by the frenzy flame.
Max, I am a PhD candidate currently working on my dissertation on Platonic cosmology. I believe there are strong Platonic influences visible in the physical structure of the game world of Elden Ring, but also in the mythology of the Erdtree, the Primordial Crucible, and the Greater Will. If you’d like to have a discussion with me on this topic, (if you think your listeners would be interested), please get in touch. I love your content man. Stay yellow, Tarnished.
Dragonlord Placidusax is reffered to as an old Elden Lord, despite Godfrey also having the title of first Elden Lord. My theory is that Godfrey was just the first Elden Lord of the era of the Erdtree, and it works as Godfrey the Elden Lord, consort of Queen Marika, operating on behest of The Greater Will, in the era of the Erdtree. For the Crucible and the dragons, I wonder if we could reformulate that in the form of - - Dragonlord Placidusax as Elden Lord, consort of the Gloam Eyed Queen, operating on behest of Destined Death, in the era of The Crucible. Similar connections what could almost play out are Mohg's plans, which would look like - - Miquella Elden Lord, consort of Mohg Lord of Blood, operating on behest of Fornelss Mother, in the era of the Mohgwyn Dyansty. I think Melina operates in trying to bring back that era, and perhaps after Marika herself recognised that it was a mistake to seal away Destined Death. As such, she gave Melina the mission to restore it (which can help explain why the guidance of grace guides us in our path. Why would Grace bring us back, and guide us to the Elden Tree just to shut us out and have a Elden Beast try stop us, unless it was Marika's attempts to undermine it TGW, and 'Grace' is an extension of her powers more so than TGW's). As such, she also helps facilitate the Death of Godwyn (we know that the Black Knife Assassins are typically Numem women like Marika herself, and that Marika betrayed Maliketh as one point), who would go on to become the Prince of Death. It seems to me that she started this chain of events after Miquella and Melania where born cursed. Look at where Malenia's Divine Tower is. The route to get to it is through a telporter on the Diving Bridge. Whilst we get transported there via chest, it seems its original and planned entrance is a massive elevator in Lyendell, which also happens to be in the Courtyard of the Original Roundhold Table in the capital centre. We also know that her Rune was 'supposed to be the most sacred of them all'. Since Mohg and Morgott as twins share a tower, my idea is that Miquella too would have shared one with Melania.
Interesting video. I also would like to see if you can talk about the Primeval Current. Even if it doesn't have so much information within the game, I think that the statements are enough to make a video of the topic. Perhaps the Crucible, the Primeval Current, and the Frenzy Flame are all connected, with each one being a different aspect of the same archetype? Since these are correlated with primordial forces, and in the case of the Primeval Current, it seems to be related with the void beyond stars (from which Astel was born), and the origin of Glintstone sorcery itself.
The crucible is an amalgamation of everything. It is the primordial form of the erdtree because the outer god that is represented by the greaterwill/elden ring/elden beast "put it in order" let's say. The crucible would be of a different form if for example the outer god championed by ranni/moon (idk if its the moon itself being an outer god) would taken hold of it.
so i have 2 ideas, in the epic of gilgamesh a snake stole the herb of which gilgamesh planned to avoid death with, as such they shed their skin and are undying so maybe that is why snakes are tied to immortality. 2. a crucible (irl) needs a flame to work doesn't it? so maybe the frenzied flame was the power of which was used to create the world and the crucible was the tool that made it possible to forge life in the immortal dragons made of gravel and stone, but the slag of the process made the many evils of the world, or maybe just what we see as evil that was just a byproduct of the process of forging the world of elden ring
The Ancient Greek word for a serpent is “dracon” or “drakon” and can refer to either a snake or a mythical dragon with wings and feet and fire-breathing etc.
I don't think the man's servants We're formerly rykard soldiers. I'm pretty sure they were born from deadica. I think most of his soldiers either turned against him and died, are still fighting, or were assimilated into his body.
I've been binging your videos and I only have one thing to say, other than general praise, your title card absolutely needs one line drawn in Give Yourself A Chin dude!
What I still don't get about the 2/3 Fingers is: what the hell are they, even? Are they two hands of the same deity? What is it about 2 that makes it Order, and 3 that makes it Chaos? Why does everyone seem cool with obeying the wishes of two appendages that don't even speak?
its all life blended together not all the universe, if the spear was forged on the crucible then it must be something you can dip things into, i visualize a primordial soup or lake of golden lava
The idea that the crucible could be a living thing, dragon or otherwise, would make sense given what the Haligtree uses for It's nourishment. And Haligtree is an offspring of the Erdtree
The problem with trying to link elden ring to dark souls is that you start looking at everything through the lens of dark souls and not the world of elden ring. Tbh it's irrelevant if it even is linked to dark souls as the universe of elden ring functions within a different set of rules governed by the elden ring, erdtree and the greater will. There certainly are similarities but so much of it simply falls under the net of "same dev, same stories" which is fine as it works brilliantly in final fantasy for example. Overall I'd use dark souls as a stepping off point when looking into elden rings story as those similarities will help you in identifying parts of the lore but if you're always looking left, you won't see what's on your right.
By saying this you're saying you don't want to understand the story being told? Bizarre opinion, why are you even watching a lore video if you're not trying to understand the story?
Interesting point and I think right, but I think it’s only a piece to the larger puzzle. Dragons are divine in a sense, yet they are not the prime divinity or the source… however the dragons do worship a god… an outer god. It’s only being whispered, but looking at the pieces I pose this question the crucible is an example or state of the divine being or outer god ruling over the lands between at the time. This example being the erd tree itself is the crucible and by extension the will and physical manifestations of the greater will or god ruling the cycle. These gods vie for control and often surplant other gods or cycles of rule in some divine chess game of causality fighting for the faith of the lands between to gain the most power. From what the community has gathered so far there are 7 outer gods including the greater will… the prime god of this cycle, but what happened to the other gods? My theory is that they wipe out the civilizations of the previous cycle once another outer god has gained more favor. Examples of the older cycles can be found in the eternal cities. Each are different, and each followed a different primordial god. The cloister the goddess of rot, and nokron possibly the formless mother, and possibly farma Azula the god of dragons. Each was a grand civilization and had their time to rise and grow, but as do all things grow do they also stagnate. With stagnation comes questions of the old ways, and in that questioning cracks in faith. When faith is shattered other gods seep in and gain favor and try as they might, the prime god of that cycle can’t fight a multiple front. I think this can also be furthered examined with two of the games stats faith and intelligence. Faith is tied to miracles from the greater will, while intelligence is linked to sorceries from rya lucaria. The academy worships the moon which is tied to another goddess the mother of the dark moon. So here are two gameplay mechanics at odds with each other creating a sample of that in game division of faith. So how do the cycles end and begin? We’ll look at the items and the supplement for the creation of the greater will. A meteor crashed to earth and the erd tree sprang up with the elden beast. From there marina was chosen and the lands between came to be… so a meteor is sent by the wining god and the civilization prior is buried and burned by the victor. Once the ash is settled a new civilization/ cycle begins and the now prime god holds on for as long as they can before the other gods supplant them. In the games endings we only really have three options or three gods to side with. One the greater will in an event of continued stagnation as nothing will change only decay. the frenzied flame who burns the erd tree and all life. Or the mother of the dark moon who I believe is the main villain because she manipulated ranni into the commuting night of knives. Is pelting the lands between with star beasts from space, something so terrifying it caused radahn to hold the stars in place. And has essentially created the only major contender to the greater will’s miracles with the creation of glintstone sorcery. As for the remaining gods we don’t know the formless mother might have lost when we killed mohg. the rotten god may be trying to influence the world with rot and melenia like it did with the cloister… and meliqua may be dreaming with another yet to be dreamed up in dlc… whatever the case the lands between seems ripe with discontent from outer influence of cruel unseeable gods of chaos…
I haven't enjoyed video game lore this much since Morrowind. My dream would be if From Software worked with Michael Kirkbride someday. I think they'd get along famously...
Great video as always. By the way, have you ever considered analyzing the games Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross in your usual style? I feel there's a lot in those games that tends to go over a lot of people's heads.
I actually recently started playing Chrono Trigger for the first time! Just need to find some time to finish it. Elden Ring cut into a lot of the time I would have spent with Chrono Trigger. :P
To add on to the serpent - dragon connection, in Asian, especially chinese mythology serpents are often seen as precursors, or rather "candidates" to become a dragon.
I am pretty sure Eastern/Asian & even Native America "dragons" are serpentine forms, some with legs or not. winged dragon form is mostly western looks.
Good work! I already have 3 on my bookmark... Still on a business trip and I can't play Elden Ring... missing out all the fun and dodging all spoilers in SNS.
I guess it is quite an obvious observation and it must have been pointed out on reddit or whatever forum where theorising is done; but I just understood during this video how can Godfrey/Hoarah Loux look like the way he is in his first phase. What helped me make the conncetion was the reference to him in the description of the Crucible knights' armours that they were his knights. Of course, Godfrey has a full-blown lionshaped Beast Lord on his back, but the fact that it is golden and spectral for the first phase harkens back to the visuals of the Crucible incantations, but in this case it is not an incatation but a form, a merged creature so to say. Or it might be even the case that Hoarah Loux + Serosh = Godfrey, but it doesn't seem likely; however, what seems to be clear from the visuals of the first phase that they are entangled on a Crucible level which is quite interesting.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this but a little comment to the "Serpents are not dragons": in Asian mythology, snakes are considered the lesser or precursor form of dragons. If you notice, eastern dragons are more serpent-like than its western type. Eastern dragons also symbolize enlightenment and are worshipped as guardians or gods.
I view Marika removing the Rune as a vain attempt to save Godwyn from dying properly. Also maybe the serpents and immortality have something to do with Ouroboros. Maybe Ouroboros parallels Rykard being devoured by a serpent and thus being reborn as the god devouring serpent?
I think that Elden Ring is a prequel to whatever souls game you’d like. Age of the stars: Bloodborne Frenzied lord: dark souls Age of duskborn: Demon souls I don’t know which ending complements Sekiro
The connection between serpents and dragons is a literary one. The words used to be used in more ancient times interchangably as synonyms. For instance, in the story of Saint George from the middle ages. The dragon is the devil, and the devil is the serpent from the Garden of Eden (in the Judeo-Christian interpretations from that time). Given Miyazaki's influences coming from alchemy (among so many other things), and alchemys (medeival) Christian heritage, this could easily be the case- that they are related not because they're the same creature, but because they come from the same roots. Whatever made dragons, dragons, when applied to men, turns them into serpents.
I found it ironic that madness in elden ring was represented by flames. I posit that this is another Kalpa of the Dark Souls universe, running parallel to the age before the first flame. It is a stagnant, rotting world. This world needs an age of light, albeit not one that burns forever.
Max, you need to redo your Ranni video. A lot of her End-Game Dialogue was mistranslated, you can find the correct translations online. It changes everything. Edit: There is something in game that confirms your ending theory (I think.) about chaos. When you die from Madness, watch the death anime. Are you not turning into a Hollow Tree from Dark Souls? You cant watch it and then tell me its not that.
As usual I love your unique take on the Fromsoft lore. I credit you with helping the community understand the Alchemical base of the world building. (Fitting for Elden Ring. The Magnum Opus) Even more obvious in Elder Ring than it was in Darksouls. (I mean they basically just copied the ripley scroll and threw a map on top of it) Also want to point out that Alchemists called the vessel they were attempting to make the Philosophers stone in "the crucible" it was a flask for any other purpose, but "the crucible" when it was for the stone But while I understand it, I wish you wouldn't base so much of what you're exploring on Darksouls lore. I would prefer if you kept the references contained to Elden Ring. At least for now. Just my two cents. Anyway. Theres some deep lore on Melina I would love if you would look into. I believe Melina is the Death Rune (And the Gloam eyed queen, worshiped by the nox and godskinners) Ranni is the Rune of the Unborn (aka rebirth) split off from the Death rune. Melina and Radagon both fought the Firegiants together. Thats why so many are Death blighted. Radagon wasnt cursed with red hair, he inherited it when he defeated the fire giants. He absorbed their power. Melina did too. Thats why the Godskin incantations are Fire based. Then Marika asks Melina to burn the Urdtree. But Melina cant, she cant oppose her Empyrean flesh. This leads to war. Marika wins. Burns Melina. Splits the death rune. Puts half in the amber. Gives half to Maliketh. (Putting the rebirth rune in amber is important, it prevents Melina from reforming using it) Thus Ranni is born from the rune. But her and Melina clearly still communicate. Its like Rannis whole plan is based off of information she took from Melina. She knows how she can use the death rune to kill only a body or only a soul. That IMO implies a deep understanding of the power of the rune. She knows where the death rune is, and she has the loyalty of the black knife assassins. She knows to burn her body to escape the influence of the two fingers and to release her soul. And how to bind her soul to a puppet body (learned from the Nox) she even hired a Giant and a puppeteer to make sure the burning and the binding go off without a hitch. Gosh. There's more too it too. Im just having a hard time remembering it all now... Melinas soul, I think its bound to Torrents whistle. After the frenzied flame starts to burn stuff, she has reclaimed her full power (I assume the burning has released the Death Rune shards and now Melina has regained much of her original powers. Hence both her eyes are open now. Her container, in torrents whistle has burned away, freeing her again and hence she can oppose you directly. Melina may be my favorite character. Theres like, a void of lore around her. Everything has to be assumed from an absence of facts.
I find it a shame that there isn't a harder to get secret ending that involves inheriting the Frenzied Flame (Chaos), taming it with Miquella's needle and finally combining the Three Mending Runes of True order, Death and The Fell curse to truly make the world whole again. To right the mistakes of the Greater Will without having to burn the world to cinders. Maybe it could've come at the cost of your character's existence. A sort of "crucifiction" if you will to signify the union of opposites as you go out of your way to bring all of the opposing cosmic forces together.
Miyazaki has been busy playing other games. Dead Cells: flame of frenzy Hollow Knight: giant ants and Scarlett Rot Blasphemous: elmer the briar’s armor and the blasphemous blade All culminate into this, i love it, Elden Ring is the Crucible
13:13 I dont think they're separate trees. i think the erdtree is in between the regular reality in dark souls and another reality we'll probably visit. Or its possibly at the top, in the heavens maybe. Imagine doom plus souls
4:10 Immortal because of their scales! Just like in dark souls!!! The more I look at different things from Elden Ring, the more they seem to be linked to the world of Dark Souls. Detractors of this theory of mine will point to miyazaki having stated that all his games are seperate universes except for the Dark Souls Trilogy, but more and more and more links between the lands between and Dark Souls keep cropping up. Immortality scales, the Bleeding Eclipse symbol, The Erdtree Avatars and the root-overgrown Demons from Dark Souls 3, the Basilisk Frogs being directly ported over, AND being placed both In the sewers and at the root of a giant tree, even down to the tiny real eyes beneath the fake giant ones. The Blackflame of Friede being used by the gloam-eyed queen and her troops, Fire Sorceries existing and being called that in both games, Crystal Magic being the most popular scholarly magic, all these shared symbols and beings that NO OTHER MIYAZAKI WORK shares with Dark Souls; you don't see the Asylum Demon in Bloodborne, you don't see Basilisk Frogs in Sekiro, and you don't see a Bleeding Eclipse Symbol or Immortality Scales on Dragons in Demon Souls. NONE of these shared ideas span between Miyazaki's universes, except for SO MANY of them between Dark Souls and Elden Ring that it CAN'T be a coincidence in my opinion.
I had been wondering what the curse afflicting the omens from the shunning ground as well as mogh and morgott was from. I'm not sure if it was from the removal of the rune of death or this crucible theory? I kinda don't buy this contact with the crucible stuff. The similarity in the appearance of the omens curse and the misbegotten make me think that they are related to the rune of death. consider how they seem to be protecting it in farum azula the rune theory makes more sense to me. in short they were cursed from removing the rune not necessarily contact with the crucible.
I was kinda surprise that you didn't mention this remembrance description: "The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree. Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return." I feel like it could add or even change some of the context of your theory. Personally I'm not a fan of connetcing lore of ER to DS, I prefere to look at it as what it is, not what it could be. A lot of mages, magic item description speaks about primeval current. Sellen dialogue: "With the bodies of Masters Azur and Lusat returned, the academy can hone the primeval current. So that we, fallen children of the stars, shall beam with brilliance once again." Comet Azur description: "When Azur glimpsed into the primeval current, he saw darkness. He was left both bewitched and fearful of the abyss." Stars of Ruin description: "When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken. "
they dont have to connect with DS at all, are elements bout mythos, alchemis, we cant say that, even george martin how was thet right the mythos they book are 2 gods, god of light and god of dark, that why meilsandre say The night is dark and full of terrors,
hey heres my little add on! it is stated placidusax was an elden lord, and the dragons had a god so on the line of the dragons and their god, i believe him to be Gransax the giant dragon in the capital. not only by size but power, if we read his weapons description it notes that he was the only one to ever successfully break through the capitals walls and destroy its champions. i beilieve he did this to stave off the coming age of the golden order, but he failed dying in the capital. this would spark the orders war against the ancient dragons and soon the destruction of farum azula. this is why placidusax is so badly damaged he had just escaped the fight at leyndell. i support my claim with the fact we see the corpse and weapon of gransaxx and the ancient dragon boss outside leyndell and the giant dragon greyoll crashed from damage and dying in caelid and many other dragons there, beastial sanctum is close to leyndell via water. this wouldve occured before the night of the black knives seeing as godwyn was known as a legendary dragon slayer, most likely the one who killed gransaxx and neutered placidusax. this war was started as resistance to the cycle but was ultimately a massive fail. and i believe this wouldve been considered a unforgivable sin since its an attack on the Erdtree, in retaliation the greater will would have sent a fallingstar beast like Astel or the one we see near volcano manor. a comet like that would have all but obliterated the city of farum azula and sent it on a crash course away from the lands between. this is why we see so much of farum azula littered throughout the world. and how a boss near the first steps you fight with blaidd is from farum azula. all of this would leave the ancient dragons and wyverns leaderless and in a frenzy around what is left of their once great city of the storm. but we do see lore stating friendship was gained back at some point, the spells of lightning was created by godwyn as a gift. fortisaxx one of his allies we fight stood by his side fighting off death for the prince eventually being corrupted himself becoming a litchdragon.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 89 | คู่เอก "ยอดไอคิว vs คิริลล์"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Z3vYkHJ_5Ig/mqdefault.jpg)
The Crucible being an amalgamation of all life and it’s effect on the misbegotten could explain the state of Godwyn’s body. The Prince of Death’s form is a terrifying mix of squid, fish, spider, man. Since the Erdtree can’t revive him exactly, perhaps his soulless living body was subject to the power of the Crucible
That's a really good point. I saw a theory, also, where Rykard ate Godwyn's body and that caused his transformation? Or something like that? I can't remember what video said that, but they made a good argument.
I think it is more likely that Godwyn became a parody of the Erd tree, which recycles energy from the dead back into the world. As things died without those souls and death root spread, their physical bodies were added to Godwyn's like a tumor, without any of the grace that recycled the energy.
Godwyn is basically The Thing.
Ive seen a video of how someone took a closer look at him and hes just a humanoid with a fish tail stuck in roots and the face also doesnt have any squid things so make it just humab and fish mix
@@savekillqqpsounds8473 that sounds FISHY to me...
Criticism/alternate theory: Dark Souls 2 takes place in France
Looks more like Scotland to me but ok.
@@ManEaterBrainBug william wallace called me and told me that ds2 is French through and through
That explains why I have no regret in killing everyone there.
Duuuuuuddddeee! I never thought of that before. 100% agree.
yea cause of the fat L of a game it was
something i would also recommend looking more into is Astel, Naturalborn of the Void, as well as how stars play a part in the setting.
I think my next in-depth video will be on the sorcery, and its referencing of stars and the primeval current.
As the darkmoon, crystals and soulsarts
@@maxderrat The crucible is the old one seen in demon's souls...
The old one was a magazine of souls (similar concept of crucible, as a storage of melted metals and wasted materials), that shrouded everything in a deep fog.
Maybe the crucible is a concept presented by the two fingers, or probably it's a similar power representing in the spiritual sequel of dark souls, that is a spiritual sequel of demon souls 😅
Seriously, you can't understand elden ring deeply withouth playing ds1 and ds3... But even demon's souls and bloodborne help you to understand them (aren't great ones presents in ds3 and elden ring? Pilgrims buterflies, angels of ringed city and the final boss of ranni's quest).
I think that every game is built on the "ashes" of previous games like this:
Demon's bad ending
Ancient time of ds1 (founded on the old one's trees)
Ds1 cicle
Ds2
Ds3 - Bloodborne (as a painted world)
Ds3 ringed city and disgregation
Dark age
Crucible era
Dragon's age
Stonage
Elden ring
I love the small in-Fromsoftware universe that Dragons always have a mineral biology and origin. Goes Very well with the Ancient vibe and lore that the crucible seams to implie. The " primordial sea " that created all life on earth in our World. The Common ancestor of all life that evolved from it. Amazing~
Aaaand, amazing video!
there is no such thing as a 'primordial sea" in our world/earth
science has long rejected the idea of evolution.
@@muhammadrahim4712 science has long rejected the idea of evolution?
@@muhammadrahim4712 Lol what.
@@shipmaster3 yes.darwins famous theory of evolution has been disproven multiple times.
@@muhammadrahim4712 yo this has to be a troll.
"Aww man, I accidentally created pain and death."
"Did you try turning the universe off and on again?"
Not to discount your hypothesis, but it is useful to note that there were many ancient associations between serpents and immortality. The shedding of their skin was a sign of rebirth.
It is also referenced in Sekiro, showing that this concept is not tied to FromSoft's more medieval settings, but permeates further.
@@vde1846 it originates from Japanese folklore surrounding serpents being related to dragons, possessing a flawed version of their immortality. Referenced in both Sekiro and Elden Ring by FromSoftware.
@@Skygrove yep, which brings me back to darksouls. Are the primordial serpents trying to screw with the ages to prolong their immortality? Is that why kaathe said frampt "lost his sense" in allying with gwyn in prolonging fire?
Maybe the passing of the ages allows the primordial serpents to shed their skin?
After all, dark souls states of serpents:
"if one's shackles are cause for discontent, perhaps its time for good old fashioned greed."
@@JayWhipp1e dont have any sens that u mean, are aloot more of explanation and are ez to funadmental than is DS universe, like idk the creators are japaneses then they got that in their culture, or, are legacy and a little easter egg of culture, really have no any that share the same universe, the end of the DS3 was perffect if really mean the end of Darksouls the end of that age, let it die in peace, now elden ring obviusly will have aloot of easter eggs and legacy thing like Forlom cave, or gael tunnel but that just that legacy name for our the players we can say oohh look at that i remember the big Gael the slave knight but that no mean gael was in the land in betwen in some point that have no senses, in fact aloto of the lore in elden ring simple dont fix in DS universes
The Godskin Noble's hood: "Nobles are the most ancient apostles who are said to have assimilated inhuman physiology. Not unlike the crucible, the Erdtree in its primordial form." Godskin Nobles have dragon tails, and Godskin Apostles can stretch their bodies, not unlike the serpent-men in Volcano Manor. There are some other concepts that tie into this, such as dragon communion - Yura states that supping too often on dragons will transform you into one, and look what happened to Praetor Rykard.
It should be noted that the Remembrance of the Dragonlord indicates that its namesake Placidusax was actually Elden Lord before there even was an Erdtree. There's indication from the Finger Reader in Roundtable Hold that the Greater Will is displeased with Queen Marika (she seems to have, as you've also indicated, prolonged the 'cycle' by shattering the Elden Ring and caused the enervation of the Lands Between.) I wonder if perhaps that dragonkind displeased the Greater Will and needed to be overthrown by the Erdtree Order, which would explain if dragons warred with the gods. It makes sense as to why the Godskin would desire their physiology; physiology that stood against the gods, same as the sentinels. The Godskin Apostles wield the Black Flame, a god-slaying force that had its power sealed away with Destined Death, and so this implies that the Godskin were active early in the time of Marika's Erdtree Order and possibly before it; also explains why you run into the Godskin Duo in Farum Azula, who could well be after the power of both Destined Death and the dragons, or either-or.
Anyway I'm just throwing out concepts but I do agree implicitly with the idea that Order and Chaos are both constituent elements of reality and I feel by excising chaos so that only order reigns, you risk enervation.
I agree with this! Though i would say the tails of the godskin nobles look much more like serpents than dragons. Dragons being mostly craggy and stonelike, where as the godskin's tails are slick and serpentine
I don't think Greater will was connected with Ancient dragons actually. If I remember Placi's rememberance it said something along the lines that his god fled and he continues to wait his return. GW might have been the one that caused the Dragon god to flee and caused the order to shift.
You may be right, actually. It does seem to be that the Lands Between is a place where outer gods are constantly vying for dominion, to establish their own order, and most of the endings are you assisting a champion or emissary of such a god, though the concepts can coexist--his god fleeing might be metaphorical, the idea of whatever divine connection he had with the gods has ebbed. That could be the greater will, or whatever the greater will was at the time. The greater will could even just be the expression of whatever gods reign in the Lands Between, a mask worn by many over eons.
Also re: the distinction of serpent tails and dragon tails, that's true but I tend to think of dragons and serpents as stemming from the same mythological idea of the ancient enemy of mankind, the reptiles that lost the battle for the world to the mammals, the serpent in the Garden of Eden, etc. Our true nemesis, over which we triumphed to own the world.
@@michalzaprt5602 I have evidence that proves the opposite, placidusax is an elden lord and this title seems exclusive to the greater will, no other lord connected with other outer gods uses the title of elden lord, it is always other titles such as The lord of frenzied flame, the lord of night prophesied by the nox and Mohg who calls himself lord of blood, none of them seek the title of Elden lord they are all different titles, elden is directly related to the greater will like the Elden beast and the Elden ring itself, the ancient dragons also have the membranes and their flesh as can be seen in the exposed flesh of placidusax as being made of gold, placidusax is also one of the only enemies in the game alongside the Elden beast that have golden flames, Farum azula has the image of an Elden ring and as we know the elden ring is the elden beast itself, in the original Japanese the kanji used to describe the god of placidusax is not the same one used to describe the outer gods (sotonaru kami) which indicates that this god was probably in fact a god like Marika who served as a vessel for the Elden Ring in his previous form
Something I'd like to add is about the Law of Regression and how the Crucible Feather talisman refers to "devolution." I think that this is integral to everything you mentioned here, especially the Misbegotten AND the Omen.
I believe that the Omen are a sign that the Erdtree makes mistakes with new life, bringing even noble demigods into the world with regressive aspects of The Crucible. Horns, tails, etc. Maybe this is also why the Crucible Knights are now hated by most?
>Crucible Knights are now hated by most
Agreed, I hate how they keep kicking my ass
The Omen are cursed by an outer god, they're not a mistake by the greater will, which is also an outer god.
Don't forget the demi-humans too. They sound like a good sign of devolution.
@@golDroger88 wrong.
@@johnsonjunior547 All the so called "curses" in the game are the result of outer gods meddling. Miquella, Malenia, Mogh and Morgott...
Very well done video as usual Max. I only have one minor correction the Snakemen in volcano manor are revealed to be birthed from sick experiments with a willing human women test subject and snakes, it is hinted that it's the god eating snake specifically. This info is from Rya's quest line.
Fun fact, dragons and the nature of religion are two of the favorite themes of George R. R. Martin. One of his most underrated works is the short story "The Way of Cross and Dragon".
You're interpretation of the frenzied flame is pretty charitable considering no one ever mentions 'starting over' after burning away all life.
Before the "greater will" became the main outergod there was the god of the dragons. The god of the dragons ErdTree was the "crucible" that was the form it took. The "greater will" changed the crucible's form to what we now see the Erdtree.
If this is true the greater will clearly took control of dragon society afterwards, there are numerous connections between dragons and the greater will
@@davisiotta489 This was my theory two years ago it seems to be wrong about the Erd Tree. But true about the Dragons having a different outer God from "The Greater Will"
@@RumoredAtmos I particularly disagree, the way the greater will is present in society and to a certain extent literally within dragons makes me think that these creatures can even be crafted by the greater will itself, the fact that dragons, in addition to having stone scales, also golden flesh as can be seen in the membranes of the ancient dragons' wings and in the exposed flesh of placidusax, so this leads me to believe that the influence of the greater will is already present in the ancient dragons since their creation, isn't it curious how even presenting all the characteristics of the crucible do dragons seem to be the only ones that possess these characteristics in an orderly way? all other forms of life that touch the crucible have the abnormal and chaotic growth of these characteristics in their bodies unlike dragons who have them in an organized way throughout their body, for me this is an influence of the order of the greater will even in the primordial form and chaos of life, I believe that the one great is the primordial void that began the universe while the crucible is the primordial form in which life originated when the greater will divided life into individual beings, more than the god of order I believe that the greatest will is the outer god of life (or at least sentient life) I believe that what created the ancient dragons was the arrival of the elden beast in the golden star, the only other race of creatures with stone skin are the onyx lord and they were born from the impact of a meteor in the lands between, I believe that something similar may have been the cause of the creation of dragons and in this case I believe it was the impact of the golden star on the lands between, this would explain why dragons appear to be at the same time made of minerals and beings of primordial life
The way the Serpents attack similar to the Godskin Apostle had me intrigued. Could easily just a reused animation but knowing From feel like there could be some link there? Godskin sounds pretty epic and a good counter to dragons/serpents.
EDIT: to clarify the attack where they elongate and go for a strike
theres a co relation to the volcano manor, flame of frenzy, and gloom eyed queen.
as well as ranni having direct dealings with rykard during the shattering and night of the black knives.
is ranni the gloom eyed queen? probably not as melina seems to be pointed in that direction (still only speculation since no dlc exists yet)
There’s a video on rykards lore that explains the possible relationship between the godskins and serpents
@@hanhdrew I'll check it out, thanks
Small note: In many cultures and languages (especially old languages) the words for snakes/serpents and dragons/wyrms are interchangeable.
This might be important.
Contrary to what the video suggests, I don't believe that snakes became dragons but rather the opposite, I believe that snakes are descendants of dragons, I think that statues of winged snakes are a representation of snakes from past generations where they still had wings reminiscent of their dragon ancestors
Im not convinced that Souls series shares a world with Elden Ring, but it certenly shares many concepts and therefore we can indeed help tho cautiously develop understanding of elden ring lore thanks to our expirience with souls series.
I think you can explain the story without reference to Dark Souls 2.
According the the Gilded Greatshield “Metal greatshield coated with gold. Carried by knights loyal to Godrick. The red tinge in the gold coat mirrors the primordial matter that
became the Erdtree.” Additionally, there are mentions of red tinged gold in various other description.
Based on that, I think primordial matter may be the blood/energy within the the Dragons. I also think Humans were made from this energy as well. An item called the Crucible Scale Talisman hints at this “A talisman fashioned from a scale that embodies the aspects of various creatures.
Said to have grown on the human body long ago. A vestige of the crucible of primordial life. Born partially of devolution, it was considered a signifier of the divine in ancient times, but is now increasingly disdained as an impurity as civilization has advanced.”
Base on that I think ancient human were the descendants of Dragons. The Erd Tree was most likely made by stealing the primordial dragons energy. In the current day of the game, I think this is why Queen Marika started all the wars. The kingdoms waring with each other are are constantly killing each other, releasing what little primordial energy still exists with them. I also think this is why death was sealed, so the tarnished can kill enemies and release this energy. Once dead, it’s only a matter of time before they revive and can continue the process all over again.
Just wanted to share my mind is currently at with the story/lore.
You mention people turning themselves into dragons, and even in Elden Ring as you consume dragon hearts at the Church of Dragon Communion in order to learn dragon attacks, your character begins to become more draconic too. My character now has dragon eyes.
And no one has found any type of full body transformations or quests related to the dragons in the game yet.
Crucible looks like the ganishka made beherit in berserk. Just a bunch of dudes/monsters in a net. From which ganishka turned into a giant obelisk creature and then a spiral tree
When I try to imagine all life in the universe as a singular entity my brain doesn't go to a void, it goes to Azathoth.
Was the frenzy flame ending not about returning everything together? I feel like the frenzied flame might be the closest thing to what the crucible look like.
Wow, what a great video.
I just had a thought about how, in DS and in ER, Dragons are always the first after the trees to inhabit the earth.
It makes sense to me that the dragons are the first creatures that derive from the crucible.
The crucible is every aspect thrown together and it's very fitting, since dragons are also a wild mixture of attributes (wings, four legged, stone scales, some kind of elemental breath, giant size).
They combine attributes of different animals and even elemental forces.
Like, their whole existence is a testimony of the crucible, kinda.
Just some food for thought.
I would refer to Smoughtowns videos on the godskin apostles and volcano manor/rykard. Very in depth and explains a lot about serpents. They’re not related to dragons.
Man, I really don't like the Greater Will interfering with our reality. I initially had hoped that the Frenzied Flame was simply going to wipe out everything and leave nothing, but when I learned that it is essentially just another hand (lol) of the Greater Will I was immediately hostile to it.
I think there is a link between the Elden Ring being symbolic of the entirety of the Lands Between, and something that was constantly being vied over by beings of great power like the outer gods, the fell gods and other gods and goddesses (unseen, rot, etc.).
Whatever the Elden Ring consisted of would then be reflected in the Lands Between. By removing the greater rune of destined death from it, Marika also removed the possibility of proper deaths, possibly in an attempt to stifle Godwyn's apparent death (maybe)? By shattering the Elden Ring, she inevitably also shattered the Lands Between (and herself, as she had conjoined with it), which was why the default ending where we attempt to mend her was called the Age of Fracture (we were not able to completely find all pieces of the shattered runes as there were smaller fragments, possibly in the form of rune arcs).
The mistake, then, by the Greater Will would be to assimilate its own golden power with the Elden Ring in an attempt to make the power grow via influencing more and more users of its grace, dying and returning the power back to the Erdtree, and reissuing it out to newer users. As Marika prevented beings from actually dying properly, the power given out was also prevented from returning to the Erdtree, thus draining the Greater Will of power gradually instead of growing it as intended.
To cut losses, it is in the best interest of the Greater Will to then destroy everything like hitting the reset button and to start over again with newly implemented changes to standard operating procedures. We can see even the two-fingers cronies encouraging us to kill all demi-gods and retrieve their great runes when the two-fingers were perceived heralds of Order.
I like how the crucible is basically the soil of which roots take hold. It's probably not a coincidence then that Placidusax, the original elden lord of the dragon's looks like a seed with two sprouts coming out when you meet him.
I appreciate the Elder Scrolls 4 Oblivion music in this video. That was a great soundtrack. Sounds like the song Auriel's Ascension. Jeremy Soule is one hell of a composer.
Just a little correction, the man serpents aren't Rykard's previous followers that merged with serpents, they are the offspring of the god devouring serpent after it had merged with Rykard. All of his old men got eaten/hunted to extinction.
I do not personally find the idea that the Souls series exists within the same continuity as the other FromSoft games very persuasive, nor especially interesting. I do, however, agree that it is fruitful to cross reference the deeper aspects of the games for context. After all, they are all made with the same creative voice, and in the same spirit.
There is something in Hinduism that has helped me put a spin on this.
The Kalpa.
These worlds are echoes of eachother. The soul of the creator is present in every one, but the order of things is different each time.
I'm more aware of Elder Scrolls and its use of the term than Hinduism's, but both encompass the same feel.
Why does such a bad opinion keep getting repeated? It's like people repeating 2+2=5 randomly. It doesn't matter if you find it persuasive or not, they are related because of the Elden Beast arena and the arch trees that are in the game, there is no discussion to be had there.
I wonder if Crucible is just an actual crucible that needs some heat source, giant flame or chaos flame for example, to spew out all types of chimera life forms from its primordial goop that it has inside. Godwyn is dipping into unheated Crucible.
You say at 11:08 that chaos was locked away to ensure eternal order, however it wasn't until the genocide of the nomadic merchants that the flame of frenzy was summoned (written on the nomadic merchant armor set). So perhaps the outer god representing chaos has been around, but it wasn't until recently it could manifest an envoy like the Golden Order did with the Elden Beast
Isn't it great and so interesting that, in a really meta way, what the characters are doing all of the time throughout the game is just interpreting the words of The Greater Will, the Free Fingers and many more god-forms? I mean, they're just like us reading item descriptions. They never had, and will never have, the full picture. Even Marika seems work on her own maybe because she just doesn't know what the Greater Will wants. Maybe she even invented the whole concept from the beginning.
I love the new dimensions in which this lore works, I think religion and spiritual beliefs are portraid in all its complexity here.
PS: I'd love to see a video digging into Godskin Apostles. They seem as interesting as the Crucible but equally obscure. There are little pieces of info here and there about their purpose and who they served in the past but it doesn't seem quite clear how they operate and specially how did Marika and Maliketh made use of them once they defeated the Gloom Eyed Queen.
I have a new addiction a crippling addiction to elden ring I'm 160hours deep lol.
Same here, 250 hours in and still discovering things. It is unbelieveable!
The observation on the crucible incantations describing a dragon was absolutely genius well done! I'm so happy you are pursuing the connections between the games, you seem to be the only one out there doing it, your analysis of these games are on another level, and while I'm no fan of alchemy I think Miyazaki is. There is such a lack of big picture thinking of these games, mostly people are just in the weeds or obsessing over tiny details that don't actually matter. Most lore videos on these games are incredibly boring, yours are the only videos I think are worth while and sometimes Richard Pilbeams.
I guess you missed the man serpent ashes in the description it states they didnt show up until after rykard was ingested by the immortal serpent. To be accurate if you wanted to say that the immortal serpent was a imperfect dragon then I can agree with your theory
Ever since I heard that there were knights named after a crucible, my immediate thoughts were to think of the places we go in Dark Souls to burn and stoke the flame
i still think relating elden ring to dark souls is a HUGE stretch but other than that the rest of the explanations is great
I think the crucible will look like the flower shape that is on the spear. Also maybe Gurrang-Maliketh may have appoched the crucible to be so ''beastlike''. He was the half-brother of Marika, but clearly doesn't look like a Numen.
I have some food for thought I'd love to be expanded on in a future video I can't help but think of Bloodborne and its lovecraftian influence and wonder if, much like how parts of Dark Souls and Sekiro have integrated themselves in Elden Ring, if lovecraftian horror plays a part in the backstory of Elden Ring. Like, the fingers are bizarre looking beings that I believe come from outer space much like The Greater Will and the Void Born. I'm also inclined to believe the fingers function as some kind of antenna for communication with the greater will. Has anyone noticed that the 6 divine towers are arranged on the map equal distances from each other and how several of them have fingers at the top, like they're communicating with the greater will or some other cosmic being? And why does the greater will even meddle in the affairs of human kind in the lands between? And what's the relationship of the void Born to the greater will? I can't help but be reminded of how Ebrietas was a cosmic entity being worshipped by the church and how that parallels to the worship of the Erdtree which is also a creation of a cosmic entity. The greater will could be some cosmic horror that we don't even understand. Also the Elden Ring itself reminds me of the glyphs from Bloodborne.
I think these are conclusions already consolidated in the community, outer god are practically confirmed seeing how Mohg worships The Formless Mother and various items in game refer to an outer god of Rot that was sealed away by the flowing sword tracher of Malenia
I like to imagine it like this: there's a whole universe (or multiple) of the outer gods, and we as tarnished are only aware of the ones that, for whatever reason, take an interest in our world. Like imagine the perspective of an anthill in a family garden. If they were intelligent, maybe they would form a religion around their god, I.e. the little boy of the family who comes and stares at them and gives them crumbs of food to watch them swarm over it. They might also be aware of a few other gods, more mysterious, rarely seen and perhaps even hostile (the rest of the family who don't care about ants or want to kill them, but who are in the garden sometimes nonetheless) and perhaps they would conceive of some sort of pantheon and hierarchy between their gods. They would have no idea about the entirety of human society going on outside the garden walls, and would be unable to conceive of it anyway. I like to think of it like this, that the outer gods are an entire species on a totally different level from us External from the bubble we call the world, and just a small number of them happen to take a passing interest in us resulting in our knowing of their existence. They might literally be god children in a greater god society who are the only ones who like to play with our particular living playset, as we would be from their perspective. That could explain their motivations - nothing that happens in the lands between could meaningfully affect their lives, transcendent as they are, so perhaps the outer gods are just the ones who are entertained by poking the world in various ways to see what happens
@@tokilladaemon This is both thought provoking and hilarious at the same time, you sir, get my like.
The crucible is probably the god that the dragon lord was waiting for. I think that the crucible could be the elden beast. It makes since since the tree took time to develop. The dragons being immortal probably worshiped the crucible until it transformed into the erdtree. That’s why they “lost” their god.
Also it blatantly proven the dragons and the golden order had somewhat of an alliance. The dragon cult started by Godwyn. Many of leyndells soldiers use lightning, ect.
You've more than redeemed yourself with this follow-up. I've completely abandoned other creators for keeping misinformation out there... so your dedication to keeping your content in peek quality will keep me dedicated to watching and supporting your videos at all times.
Thank you to all of Maxs' Patrons for keeping him doing what he loves!
Excellent video maybe Wyrm dragons are the completed final form for the serpent men in rykards place. I find it interesting that Elden pretty much combines both dark souls lore and bloodborne lore.
Crucible spells remembers me so much of dragons that I included them in my dragon communion playthrough.
I like to think the Crucible is more like the universe before the Big Bang, infinitely hot and Infinitely Dense, or akin to the Flame of Frenzy. A great burning existence that's not really Flame but can't be described differently.
There's what I've been looking for.
Not sure if it's related but Chinese folklore also states snakes are potentially "candidates" or precursors to becoming dragons if they can live long enough. Some Slavic folklore suggests the same. So I think the snake -> dragon connection definitely has legs.
Great work as always! I'd love some lore on the church of dragon communion if that's something you'd be interested in covering!
I’ve been wondering if there is a way to map the creation story of Elden Ring to the painting made at the end of DS3’s dlcs.
All life blended together? LCL? Neon Genesis Elden Ringion?
I don't think the elden ring with its golden order creates the concept of death. Rather, it's a machination to control how a soul is recycled. Its goal is to create perfect beings, or at least, get rid of omens--which is a possibility if a soul is returned to the crucible instead. The rune of death represents a power, not a concept. It's a power capable of killing gods and demigods. Marika sealed it away so that it can't be used against her lineage. Such power is useful for the greater wills conquest against others. Deaths for others still occurs, as you can still see people getting buried in catacombs located next the erd tree roots.
Some good points, though I don't think I'll ever buy the shared universe theory. So, here's my points of contention.
We know that rykard didn't become immortal per se, but that it was a side effect of fusing with the serpent god, who is inherently immortal. We also know that this snake assimilates the power and psyche of whoever they consume, that's how rykard fused with it and the whole point of the volcano manor grooming champions, and how the serpent was worshipped in Mt gelmir long before rykard. These statues could very easily depict the snake's previous form. It's also revealed that the serpent men came as the result of horrific rituals meant to produce loyal soldiers after rykard was abandoned by his men.
Chaos and order don't seem to represent the ideals we automatically associate with them. Order is not simply the rules by which the natural world abides, it's also the rules that allow the natural world to exist. Even the crucible when presented as an amalgamation of aspects of different organisms requires order, as all these different features wouldn't exist without the rules to define them individually. Chaos on the other hand presents the complete absence of rules, and therefore the absence of existence, unleashing it upon the world means a return to the time before the crucible, when all was one and one was nothing. Unlike the age of dark in dark souls, existence is impossible under chaos, and it'd be safe to assume that even the outer gods would be consumed by the frenzy flame.
Max, I am a PhD candidate currently working on my dissertation on Platonic cosmology. I believe there are strong Platonic influences visible in the physical structure of the game world of Elden Ring, but also in the mythology of the Erdtree, the Primordial Crucible, and the Greater Will. If you’d like to have a discussion with me on this topic, (if you think your listeners would be interested), please get in touch. I love your content man. Stay yellow, Tarnished.
Howdy professor! Please e-mail me about it! I'd love to hear from you. My e-mail is: maxderrat@yahoo.ca
Damn it I haven't finished the game. I'll be back later 😅
Dragonlord Placidusax is reffered to as an old Elden Lord, despite Godfrey also having the title of first Elden Lord.
My theory is that Godfrey was just the first Elden Lord of the era of the Erdtree, and it works as Godfrey the Elden Lord, consort of Queen Marika, operating on behest of The Greater Will, in the era of the Erdtree.
For the Crucible and the dragons, I wonder if we could reformulate that in the form of - - Dragonlord Placidusax as Elden Lord, consort of the Gloam Eyed Queen, operating on behest of Destined Death, in the era of The Crucible.
Similar connections what could almost play out are Mohg's plans, which would look like - - Miquella Elden Lord, consort of Mohg Lord of Blood, operating on behest of Fornelss Mother, in the era of the Mohgwyn Dyansty.
I think Melina operates in trying to bring back that era, and perhaps after Marika herself recognised that it was a mistake to seal away Destined Death. As such, she gave Melina the mission to restore it (which can help explain why the guidance of grace guides us in our path. Why would Grace bring us back, and guide us to the Elden Tree just to shut us out and have a Elden Beast try stop us, unless it was Marika's attempts to undermine it TGW, and 'Grace' is an extension of her powers more so than TGW's). As such, she also helps facilitate the Death of Godwyn (we know that the Black Knife Assassins are typically Numem women like Marika herself, and that Marika betrayed Maliketh as one point), who would go on to become the Prince of Death.
It seems to me that she started this chain of events after Miquella and Melania where born cursed. Look at where Malenia's Divine Tower is. The route to get to it is through a telporter on the Diving Bridge. Whilst we get transported there via chest, it seems its original and planned entrance is a massive elevator in Lyendell, which also happens to be in the Courtyard of the Original Roundhold Table in the capital centre. We also know that her Rune was 'supposed to be the most sacred of them all'. Since Mohg and Morgott as twins share a tower, my idea is that Miquella too would have shared one with Melania.
Interesting video.
I also would like to see if you can talk about the Primeval Current. Even if it doesn't have so much information within the game, I think that the statements are enough to make a video of the topic.
Perhaps the Crucible, the Primeval Current, and the Frenzy Flame are all connected, with each one being a different aspect of the same archetype? Since these are correlated with primordial forces, and in the case of the Primeval Current, it seems to be related with the void beyond stars (from which Astel was born), and the origin of Glintstone sorcery itself.
The crucible is an amalgamation of everything. It is the primordial form of the erdtree because the outer god that is represented by the greaterwill/elden ring/elden beast "put it in order" let's say. The crucible would be of a different form if for example the outer god championed by ranni/moon (idk if its the moon itself being an outer god) would taken hold of it.
so i have 2 ideas, in the epic of gilgamesh a snake stole the herb of which gilgamesh planned to avoid death with, as such they shed their skin and are undying so maybe that is why snakes are tied to immortality.
2. a crucible (irl) needs a flame to work doesn't it? so maybe the frenzied flame was the power of which was used to create the world and the crucible was the tool that made it possible to forge life in the immortal dragons made of gravel and stone, but the slag of the process made the many evils of the world, or maybe just what we see as evil that was just a byproduct of the process of forging the world of elden ring
The Ancient Greek word for a serpent is “dracon” or “drakon” and can refer to either a snake or a mythical dragon with wings and feet and fire-breathing etc.
I don't think the man's servants We're formerly rykard soldiers. I'm pretty sure they were born from deadica. I think most of his soldiers either turned against him and died, are still fighting, or were assimilated into his body.
I've been binging your videos and I only have one thing to say, other than general praise, your title card absolutely needs one line drawn in Give Yourself A Chin dude!
I feel like the crucible the ancient dragons are definitely tied together but I also feel that the frenzied flame is tied to it as well in some way.
Can't wait to watch these videos
Unfortunately I think it's still going to be quite some time before I'm finished with the game
Thanks for the warning max I’ll definitely check it out when I’m done with the game
What I still don't get about the 2/3 Fingers is: what the hell are they, even? Are they two hands of the same deity? What is it about 2 that makes it Order, and 3 that makes it Chaos? Why does everyone seem cool with obeying the wishes of two appendages that don't even speak?
its all life blended together not all the universe, if the spear was forged on the crucible then it must be something you can dip things into, i visualize a primordial soup or lake of golden lava
The idea that the crucible could be a living thing, dragon or otherwise, would make sense given what the Haligtree uses for It's nourishment. And Haligtree is an offspring of the Erdtree
Hey, do you think that the 2 fingers and the 3 fingers used to be one hand at one time because 2+3=5
The problem with trying to link elden ring to dark souls is that you start looking at everything through the lens of dark souls and not the world of elden ring. Tbh it's irrelevant if it even is linked to dark souls as the universe of elden ring functions within a different set of rules governed by the elden ring, erdtree and the greater will.
There certainly are similarities but so much of it simply falls under the net of "same dev, same stories" which is fine as it works brilliantly in final fantasy for example. Overall I'd use dark souls as a stepping off point when looking into elden rings story as those similarities will help you in identifying parts of the lore but if you're always looking left, you won't see what's on your right.
By saying this you're saying you don't want to understand the story being told? Bizarre opinion, why are you even watching a lore video if you're not trying to understand the story?
Interesting point and I think right, but I think it’s only a piece to the larger puzzle. Dragons are divine in a sense, yet they are not the prime divinity or the source… however the dragons do worship a god… an outer god.
It’s only being whispered, but looking at the pieces I pose this question the crucible is an example or state of the divine being or outer god ruling over the lands between at the time. This example being the erd tree itself is the crucible and by extension the will and physical manifestations of the greater will or god ruling the cycle. These gods vie for control and often surplant other gods or cycles of rule in some divine chess game of causality fighting for the faith of the lands between to gain the most power.
From what the community has gathered so far there are 7 outer gods including the greater will… the prime god of this cycle, but what happened to the other gods? My theory is that they wipe out the civilizations of the previous cycle once another outer god has gained more favor.
Examples of the older cycles can be found in the eternal cities. Each are different, and each followed a different primordial god. The cloister the goddess of rot, and nokron possibly the formless mother, and possibly farma Azula the god of dragons. Each was a grand civilization and had their time to rise and grow, but as do all things grow do they also stagnate. With stagnation comes questions of the old ways, and in that questioning cracks in faith. When faith is shattered other gods seep in and gain favor and try as they might, the prime god of that cycle can’t fight a multiple front.
I think this can also be furthered examined with two of the games stats faith and intelligence. Faith is tied to miracles from the greater will, while intelligence is linked to sorceries from rya lucaria. The academy worships the moon which is tied to another goddess the mother of the dark moon. So here are two gameplay mechanics at odds with each other creating a sample of that in game division of faith.
So how do the cycles end and begin? We’ll look at the items and the supplement for the creation of the greater will. A meteor crashed to earth and the erd tree sprang up with the elden beast. From there marina was chosen and the lands between came to be… so a meteor is sent by the wining god and the civilization prior is buried and burned by the victor. Once the ash is settled a new civilization/ cycle begins and the now prime god holds on for as long as they can before the other gods supplant them.
In the games endings we only really have three options or three gods to side with. One the greater will in an event of continued stagnation as nothing will change only decay. the frenzied flame who burns the erd tree and all life. Or the mother of the dark moon who I believe is the main villain because she manipulated ranni into the commuting night of knives. Is pelting the lands between with star beasts from space, something so terrifying it caused radahn to hold the stars in place. And has essentially created the only major contender to the greater will’s miracles with the creation of glintstone sorcery.
As for the remaining gods we don’t know the formless mother might have lost when we killed mohg. the rotten god may be trying to influence the world with rot and melenia like it did with the cloister… and meliqua may be dreaming with another yet to be dreamed up in dlc… whatever the case the lands between seems ripe with discontent from outer influence of cruel unseeable gods of chaos…
I haven't enjoyed video game lore this much since Morrowind. My dream would be if From Software worked with Michael Kirkbride someday. I think they'd get along famously...
Great vid.😺
Love you Max
all soul games lords are latinamerican presidents
Great video as always. By the way, have you ever considered analyzing the games Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross in your usual style? I feel there's a lot in those games that tends to go over a lot of people's heads.
I actually recently started playing Chrono Trigger for the first time! Just need to find some time to finish it. Elden Ring cut into a lot of the time I would have spent with Chrono Trigger. :P
I don't agree on a lot of your points but it's still a good well reasoned video.
To add on to the serpent - dragon connection, in Asian, especially chinese mythology serpents are often seen as precursors, or rather "candidates" to become a dragon.
I am pretty sure Eastern/Asian & even Native America "dragons" are serpentine forms, some with legs or not. winged dragon form is mostly western looks.
Good work! I already have 3 on my bookmark...
Still on a business trip and I can't play Elden Ring... missing out all the fun and dodging all spoilers in SNS.
I guess it is quite an obvious observation and it must have been pointed out on reddit or whatever forum where theorising is done; but I just understood during this video how can Godfrey/Hoarah Loux look like the way he is in his first phase. What helped me make the conncetion was the reference to him in the description of the Crucible knights' armours that they were his knights. Of course, Godfrey has a full-blown lionshaped Beast Lord on his back, but the fact that it is golden and spectral for the first phase harkens back to the visuals of the Crucible incantations, but in this case it is not an incatation but a form, a merged creature so to say. Or it might be even the case that Hoarah Loux + Serosh = Godfrey, but it doesn't seem likely; however, what seems to be clear from the visuals of the first phase that they are entangled on a Crucible level which is quite interesting.
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this but a little comment to the "Serpents are not dragons": in Asian mythology, snakes are considered the lesser or precursor form of dragons. If you notice, eastern dragons are more serpent-like than its western type. Eastern dragons also symbolize enlightenment and are worshipped as guardians or gods.
I hope you cover the three fingers but mostly the concept of the chaos flame and frenzy
I view Marika removing the Rune as a vain attempt to save Godwyn from dying properly. Also maybe the serpents and immortality have something to do with Ouroboros. Maybe Ouroboros parallels Rykard being devoured by a serpent and thus being reborn as the god devouring serpent?
I think that Elden Ring is a prequel to whatever souls game you’d like.
Age of the stars: Bloodborne
Frenzied lord: dark souls
Age of duskborn: Demon souls
I don’t know which ending complements Sekiro
The connection between serpents and dragons is a literary one. The words used to be used in more ancient times interchangably as synonyms. For instance, in the story of Saint George from the middle ages. The dragon is the devil, and the devil is the serpent from the Garden of Eden (in the Judeo-Christian interpretations from that time). Given Miyazaki's influences coming from alchemy (among so many other things), and alchemys (medeival) Christian heritage, this could easily be the case- that they are related not because they're the same creature, but because they come from the same roots. Whatever made dragons, dragons, when applied to men, turns them into serpents.
I found it ironic that madness in elden ring was represented by flames. I posit that this is another Kalpa of the Dark Souls universe, running parallel to the age before the first flame.
It is a stagnant, rotting world.
This world needs an age of light, albeit not one that burns forever.
Max, you need to redo your Ranni video. A lot of her End-Game Dialogue was mistranslated, you can find the correct translations online. It changes everything.
Edit: There is something in game that confirms your ending theory (I think.) about chaos. When you die from Madness, watch the death anime. Are you not turning into a Hollow Tree from Dark Souls? You cant watch it and then tell me its not that.
I'm going to be doing a follow-up to that video next week.
@@maxderrat K. Your gonna wanna see the edit i just added. I literally just remembered it.
As usual I love your unique take on the Fromsoft lore. I credit you with helping the community understand the Alchemical base of the world building. (Fitting for Elden Ring. The Magnum Opus) Even more obvious in Elder Ring than it was in Darksouls. (I mean they basically just copied the ripley scroll and threw a map on top of it)
Also want to point out that Alchemists called the vessel they were attempting to make the Philosophers stone in "the crucible" it was a flask for any other purpose, but "the crucible" when it was for the stone
But while I understand it, I wish you wouldn't base so much of what you're exploring on Darksouls lore. I would prefer if you kept the references contained to Elden Ring. At least for now. Just my two cents.
Anyway. Theres some deep lore on Melina I would love if you would look into. I believe Melina is the Death Rune (And the Gloam eyed queen, worshiped by the nox and godskinners) Ranni is the Rune of the Unborn (aka rebirth) split off from the Death rune.
Melina and Radagon both fought the Firegiants together. Thats why so many are Death blighted. Radagon wasnt cursed with red hair, he inherited it when he defeated the fire giants. He absorbed their power. Melina did too. Thats why the Godskin incantations are Fire based.
Then Marika asks Melina to burn the Urdtree. But Melina cant, she cant oppose her Empyrean flesh.
This leads to war. Marika wins. Burns Melina. Splits the death rune. Puts half in the amber. Gives half to Maliketh. (Putting the rebirth rune in amber is important, it prevents Melina from reforming using it)
Thus Ranni is born from the rune. But her and Melina clearly still communicate. Its like Rannis whole plan is based off of information she took from Melina. She knows how she can use the death rune to kill only a body or only a soul. That IMO implies a deep understanding of the power of the rune. She knows where the death rune is, and she has the loyalty of the black knife assassins.
She knows to burn her body to escape the influence of the two fingers and to release her soul. And how to bind her soul to a puppet body (learned from the Nox) she even hired a Giant and a puppeteer to make sure the burning and the binding go off without a hitch.
Gosh. There's more too it too. Im just having a hard time remembering it all now...
Melinas soul, I think its bound to Torrents whistle. After the frenzied flame starts to burn stuff, she has reclaimed her full power (I assume the burning has released the Death Rune shards and now Melina has regained much of her original powers. Hence both her eyes are open now. Her container, in torrents whistle has burned away, freeing her again and hence she can oppose you directly.
Melina may be my favorite character. Theres like, a void of lore around her. Everything has to be assumed from an absence of facts.
What armor set are you using? Looks extremely cool
Maliketh's armor.
yeah its like XVI century spanish armour!
I find it a shame that there isn't a harder to get secret ending that involves inheriting the Frenzied Flame (Chaos), taming it with Miquella's needle and finally combining the Three Mending Runes of True order, Death and The Fell curse to truly make the world whole again.
To right the mistakes of the Greater Will without having to burn the world to cinders.
Maybe it could've come at the cost of your character's existence. A sort of "crucifiction" if you will to signify the union of opposites as you go out of your way to bring all of the opposing cosmic forces together.
Taking away the jump that Elden Ring shares the same universe as Dark Souls, it's a really good theory
Miyazaki has been busy playing other games.
Dead Cells: flame of frenzy
Hollow Knight: giant ants and Scarlett Rot
Blasphemous: elmer the briar’s armor and the blasphemous blade
All culminate into this, i love it, Elden Ring is the Crucible
When I first saw the Elden ring it reminded me of the darksign
13:13 I dont think they're separate trees. i think the erdtree is in between the regular reality in dark souls and another reality we'll probably visit. Or its possibly at the top, in the heavens maybe. Imagine doom plus souls
Video is not in description.
Fixed that. Thanks for notifying me.
There are tall trees in bloodborne also within the Hunter's dream
4:10 Immortal because of their scales! Just like in dark souls!!! The more I look at different things from Elden Ring, the more they seem to be linked to the world of Dark Souls. Detractors of this theory of mine will point to miyazaki having stated that all his games are seperate universes except for the Dark Souls Trilogy, but more and more and more links between the lands between and Dark Souls keep cropping up. Immortality scales, the Bleeding Eclipse symbol, The Erdtree Avatars and the root-overgrown Demons from Dark Souls 3, the Basilisk Frogs being directly ported over, AND being placed both In the sewers and at the root of a giant tree, even down to the tiny real eyes beneath the fake giant ones. The Blackflame of Friede being used by the gloam-eyed queen and her troops, Fire Sorceries existing and being called that in both games, Crystal Magic being the most popular scholarly magic, all these shared symbols and beings that NO OTHER MIYAZAKI WORK shares with Dark Souls; you don't see the Asylum Demon in Bloodborne, you don't see Basilisk Frogs in Sekiro, and you don't see a Bleeding Eclipse Symbol or Immortality Scales on Dragons in Demon Souls. NONE of these shared ideas span between Miyazaki's universes, except for SO MANY of them between Dark Souls and Elden Ring that it CAN'T be a coincidence in my opinion.
are you going to do those monthly streamings again any time/soon??
2:20 my guess is it would look kinda like chilli con carne
I had been wondering what the curse afflicting the omens from the shunning ground as well as mogh and morgott was from. I'm not sure if it was from the removal of the rune of death or this crucible theory? I kinda don't buy this contact with the crucible stuff. The similarity in the appearance of the omens curse and the misbegotten make me think that they are related to the rune of death. consider how they seem to be protecting it in farum azula the rune theory makes more sense to me. in short they were cursed from removing the rune not necessarily contact with the crucible.
I was kinda surprise that you didn't mention this remembrance description:
"The Dragonlord whose seat lies at the heart of the storm beyond
time is said to have been Elden Lord in the age before the Erdtree.
Once his god was fled, the lord continued to await its return."
I feel like it could add or even change some of the context of your theory.
Personally I'm not a fan of connetcing lore of ER to DS, I prefere to look at it as what it is, not what it could be.
A lot of mages, magic item description speaks about primeval current.
Sellen dialogue: "With the bodies of Masters Azur and Lusat returned, the academy can hone the primeval current.
So that we, fallen children of the stars, shall beam with brilliance once again."
Comet Azur description: "When Azur glimpsed into the primeval current, he saw darkness. He was left both bewitched and fearful of the abyss."
Stars of Ruin description: "When Lusat glimpsed into the primeval current, he beheld the final moments of a great star cluster, and upon seeing it, he too was broken. "
It's fair to point out that alot of the spells and miracles from previous dark souls games are present in ER.
Some even have the same names.
they dont have to connect with DS at all, are elements bout mythos, alchemis, we cant say that, even george martin how was thet right the mythos they book are 2 gods, god of light and god of dark, that why meilsandre say The night is dark and full of terrors,
hey heres my little add on! it is stated placidusax was an elden lord, and the dragons had a god so
on the line of the dragons and their god, i believe him to be Gransax the giant dragon in the capital. not only by size but power, if we read his weapons description it notes that he was the only one to ever successfully break through the capitals walls and destroy its champions. i beilieve he did this to stave off the coming age of the golden order, but he failed dying in the capital. this would spark the orders war against the ancient dragons and soon the destruction of farum azula. this is why placidusax is so badly damaged he had just escaped the fight at leyndell. i support my claim with the fact we see the corpse and weapon of gransaxx and the ancient dragon boss outside leyndell and the giant dragon greyoll crashed from damage and dying in caelid and many other dragons there, beastial sanctum is close to leyndell via water. this wouldve occured before the night of the black knives seeing as godwyn was known as a legendary dragon slayer, most likely the one who killed gransaxx and neutered placidusax. this war was started as resistance to the cycle but was ultimately a massive fail. and i believe this wouldve been considered a unforgivable sin since its an attack on the Erdtree, in retaliation the greater will would have sent a fallingstar beast like Astel or the one we see near volcano manor. a comet like that would have all but obliterated the city of farum azula and sent it on a crash course away from the lands between. this is why we see so much of farum azula littered throughout the world. and how a boss near the first steps you fight with blaidd is from farum azula. all of this would leave the ancient dragons and wyverns leaderless and in a frenzy around what is left of their once great city of the storm. but we do see lore stating friendship was gained back at some point, the spells of lightning was created by godwyn as a gift. fortisaxx one of his allies we fight stood by his side fighting off death for the prince eventually being corrupted himself becoming a litchdragon.
I really like this theory