Spot on Dave, thank you. I’ve often asked people who played for him how such a limited conductor could have become so prominent. They said (1) in the early days the quick springy tempi of his Baroque recordings had great appeal at a time when he had little competition (2) he was a phenomenally good recording technician, and when asked to repeat a few bars in the middle of a movement could always do so at the right speed, saving time AND MONEY. He assembled an absolutely top class group of players, many with fine careers as soloists etc, and by sticking with him they were assured of decades of well-paid work.
Marriner's scarf period - brilliant! Actually you should do a talk on pretentious artist portraits. I have a nomination - the cover to Uchida's Beethoven Piano Sonatas 30, 31 & 32 on Philips originally. Looks like she's auditioning for Lady Macbeth! Love the disc musically by the way
Wow! That Francesca da Rimini! Sir Neville just didn't have the chutzpah for that music! Dave, you really should do a separate talk just about that piece. I absolutely love it and would cherish a comparison of the best and worst versions. For me, Stokowski with the New York Stadium Symphony is about as polar opposite to Marriner as you can get. However, I'm sure there are other fantastic versions. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the piece and the catalogue.
"What persuaded this man to do a Tchaikovsky cycle?" Money. British consumers of classical recordings are among the most nationalistic/insecure I've ever encountered (see Gramophone Magazine and read their "polls" of "greatest" this or that for giggles, noting how half the Top Tens are British). Marriner's impressive career was fueled by endless positive press and an indiscriminate public, powerful recording contracts, and a warm, fuzzy, mellow sound. Thing is, he did some very good stuff. His recording of Haydn's no. 85 is still my go-to after all these years.
You have definitely hit upon something with the "scarf period" remarks. Undoubtedly there have been others who have taken to wearing them upon reaching their years of decadence, but I will mention just two: Leonard Bernstein and Luciano Pavarotti.
This video reminded me about one particular recording of Marriner: Dag Wirén's Serenade for Strings. Very attractive piece of music. As well as some of his symphonies. Don't you have plans to cover this topic at some moment in future?
I've actually always really liked Marriner. Call me boring, but I prefer his straight-forward way of interpreting music. I've always adored his Tchaikovsky cycle and his Philips Beethoven cycle, as well as all of his Baroque and Classical recordings. Of course, some of his interpretations are uninspiring, as is the case with most musical artists, but I like the way Marriner sees things. I think he excelled in Handel, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven personally. But, each to their own!
David, question: Why are conductors unable to adapt seamlessly between conducting Baroque, Classical, Romantic compositions, etc.? Great actors are capable of delivering memorable performances whether in dramatic or comedic roles. Seems strange that someone like Marriner and many others could not consistently conduct a variety of styles. Is it a case that they were "set in their ways", and either unable or willing to adapt accordingly? Just curious.
Some are simply more adaptable than others, and it's the same with actors. Marriner specialized. Maybe he wasn't a "great" conductor by your definition. I don't think he was.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hi David, very intrigued by you saying that you don't think Marriner was a great conductor. While I myself have conductors whom I prefer when it comes to certain pieces, eras, or styles, I'm probably not knowledgeable enough about any conductor's career and repertory to judge their greatness. It'll be most interesting to know what you think makes a conductor great or, in other words, against what criteria do you determine if a conductor is great. As thought-provoking as you always are, I'm sure this can even be the topic of another interesting video! - Kai-Yuan
As an aside some actors don’t switch between modern realism and classical styles so easily either. Jack Lemmon, one of my favorites, with laughably out of his depth in his small Shakespearean role in the ‘90’s Hamlet film. Susan Sarandon, generally a fine actress in contemporary roles, was the big casting error in the otherwise terrific stage production of Ionesco’s Exit The King that I saw (and was very weak in the Sci Fi Channel’s Dune movie as well), her naturalism seems better suited for street cred parts than when a more theatrical approach is called for.
I agree that the Marriner Mendelssohn overtures disc is notable for its enterprising selection. You almost never hear the overture to Paulus separately, yet it works really well as a standalone piece with, in Marriner's recording, an absolutely thrilling pipe organ contribution at the end. If I recall correctly, in this performance the overture to the utterly charming Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde is shorn of its coda for no good reason. Someday, wouldn't it be nice if a Mendelssohn overture collection also included The Two Pedagogues and The Uncle from Boston (!)? The Trumpet Overture (which he also adapted as the Overture to his revision of Handel's Israel in Egypt) is a fascinating midteens transitional work with its scampering passagework right out of the early string symphonies and then in the next measure it's like you've landed suddenly in the middle of Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage or the Hebrides, though these were several years in the future. Whiplash. (The overtures can be loaded as individual tracks on Amazon.)
At minimum the tempi strike me as way too fast here. Specifically with Mariners Romantic repertoire. This sense of urgency completely negates or robs the emotional potential in the score, at least sometimes for me. Just my opinion. Like there are too many people speaking at once.! Often to such a degree that I find it leads to interpretations that lack, simply put excitement. Which sounds like a contradiction as fast is always exciting right? Works great for me in the early baroque and early classical period pieces, especially on period instruments. I am not a musician just an avid “all things classical” listener. The conductor needs to convince me that this composers particular piece is worth my attention. I don’t know if anyone agrees. I have some old Marriner vinyl that get a dust off to my applause. Listening to Agon by Stravinsky. What a mind bend.. I never stop my fascination with this piece.
I agree with you completely on Marriner's strengths and weaknesses. I actually have his Capriccio recordings of Tchaikovsky 's syms 1 & 2 - another disc I purchased out of curiosity and played once. Zzzzzzzz. I kept waiting in vain for some random moment of commitment or inspiration. Didn't happen. The infamous ASMF Respighi disc is another example of a school of fish truly out of water (and ideas). No, no, no.
He never even started with period instrument performances. He mainly stuck with the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields for 17th/18th century stuff, then moved onto the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra and Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra for the later stuff (including a wonderful disc of Respighi's Ancient Airs and Dances with the LACO on EMI).
Scarf period ...................... perhaps coincides with Lenny's sweater-over-the-shoulders, Radical Chic phase. Fashion fads don't wear well. Try showing your kids old photos of yourself in bell-bottoms. I guess the box doesn't touch on them, but Marriner/ASMF recordings of 20thC music still sound fine to my ears - Bartok, Stravinsky and the Walton/Prokofiev adaptations. Again, no great depth of emotion called for.
Nonono Dave, after the scarf comes the last phase: the towel... Levine had one, Chailly has one... I have one, but it's being washed right now. Not a big fan of Marriner when he wasn't in his familiar 'fields'... But a great video nevertheless
I just HATE those CD covers with God-awful portrait photos of conductors. Always the epitomy of bad taste. Wide brimmed hats - always popular. Sometimes the granny-knitted wooly sweaters make an appearance, or there's the 'hard at work' approach; close-up, usually black and white of the conductor at full-pelt, beads of perspiration all over the place.... However, Karajan takes the biscuit - in leather on his motorbike! C'mon!!!
Spot on Dave, thank you.
I’ve often asked people who played for him how such a limited conductor could have become so prominent. They said (1) in the early days the quick springy tempi of his Baroque recordings had great appeal at a time when he had little competition (2) he was a phenomenally good recording technician, and when asked to repeat a few bars in the middle of a movement could always do so at the right speed, saving time AND MONEY. He assembled an absolutely top class group of players, many with fine careers as soloists etc, and by sticking with him they were assured of decades of well-paid work.
Makes sense. Thanks for the insight.
I read where he said he'd learned recording technique from Antal Dorati.
Marriner's scarf period - brilliant! Actually you should do a talk on pretentious artist portraits. I have a nomination - the cover to Uchida's Beethoven Piano Sonatas 30, 31 & 32 on Philips originally. Looks like she's auditioning for Lady Macbeth! Love the disc musically by the way
To me she looks like she was posing for Munch’s The Scream. At least she kept her mouth closed
Dave is so engaging and entertaining I could literally listen to him hold forth on the sonoraties of a dial tone.
I agree, he’s got a great delivery. Should think about narration or book reading recordings
That Tchaikovsky bit you played had me laughing out loud. It sounded like someone throwing up...while being careful not to soil the scarf, of course.
Wow! That Francesca da Rimini! Sir Neville just didn't have the chutzpah for that music! Dave, you really should do a separate talk just about that piece. I absolutely love it and would cherish a comparison of the best and worst versions. For me, Stokowski with the New York Stadium Symphony is about as polar opposite to Marriner as you can get. However, I'm sure there are other fantastic versions. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the piece and the catalogue.
I'd love to do it, but without permission to use samples it's difficult.
Barbirolli; also his Romeo and Juliet. Hot stuff.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I think it's worth doing even without the audio clips. We can always track them down for ourselves.
Please Mr Hurwitz! Do it!
Munch's recording is superb!
"What persuaded this man to do a Tchaikovsky cycle?" Money. British consumers of classical recordings are among the most nationalistic/insecure I've ever encountered (see Gramophone Magazine and read their "polls" of "greatest" this or that for giggles, noting how half the Top Tens are British). Marriner's impressive career was fueled by endless positive press and an indiscriminate public, powerful recording contracts, and a warm, fuzzy, mellow sound. Thing is, he did some very good stuff. His recording of Haydn's no. 85 is still my go-to after all these years.
I used to have Marriner’s Gershwin recording on the same label. Let’s just say that it’s just.........ok.
You have definitely hit upon something with the "scarf period" remarks. Undoubtedly there have been others who have taken to wearing them upon reaching their years of decadence, but I will mention just two: Leonard Bernstein and Luciano Pavarotti.
Sounded more like "Francesca da Bimini." The poor girl didn't end up in hell, but got a little sunburned from too much time at the beach.
This video reminded me about one particular recording of Marriner: Dag Wirén's Serenade for Strings. Very attractive piece of music. As well as some of his symphonies. Don't you have plans to cover this topic at some moment in future?
I have plans to cover every topic in future. In the meantime, my Wiren reviews at ClassicsToday.com.
I've actually always really liked Marriner. Call me boring, but I prefer his straight-forward way of interpreting music. I've always adored his Tchaikovsky cycle and his Philips Beethoven cycle, as well as all of his Baroque and Classical recordings. Of course, some of his interpretations are uninspiring, as is the case with most musical artists, but I like the way Marriner sees things. I think he excelled in Handel, Bach, Mozart, Haydn, Tchaikovsky and Beethoven personally. But, each to their own!
David, question: Why are conductors unable to adapt seamlessly between conducting Baroque, Classical, Romantic compositions, etc.? Great actors are capable of delivering memorable performances whether in dramatic or comedic roles. Seems strange that someone like Marriner and many others could not consistently conduct a variety of styles. Is it a case that they were "set in their ways", and either unable or willing to adapt accordingly? Just curious.
Some are simply more adaptable than others, and it's the same with actors. Marriner specialized. Maybe he wasn't a "great" conductor by your definition. I don't think he was.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Hi David, very intrigued by you saying that you don't think Marriner was a great conductor. While I myself have conductors whom I prefer when it comes to certain pieces, eras, or styles, I'm probably not knowledgeable enough about any conductor's career and repertory to judge their greatness.
It'll be most interesting to know what you think makes a conductor great or, in other words, against what criteria do you determine if a conductor is great. As thought-provoking as you always are, I'm sure this can even be the topic of another interesting video!
- Kai-Yuan
@@鄭凱元-z9i I'll think about it!
As an aside some actors don’t switch between modern realism and classical styles so easily either. Jack Lemmon, one of my favorites, with laughably out of his depth in his small Shakespearean role in the ‘90’s Hamlet film. Susan Sarandon, generally a fine actress in contemporary roles, was the big casting error in the otherwise terrific stage production of Ionesco’s Exit The King that I saw (and was very weak in the Sci Fi Channel’s Dune movie as well), her naturalism seems better suited for street cred parts than when a more theatrical approach is called for.
You are so right about certain kinds of scarves....
I agree that the Marriner Mendelssohn overtures disc is notable for its enterprising selection. You almost never hear the overture to Paulus separately, yet it works really well as a standalone piece with, in Marriner's recording, an absolutely thrilling pipe organ contribution at the end. If I recall correctly, in this performance the overture to the utterly charming Die Heimkehr aus der Fremde is shorn of its coda for no good reason. Someday, wouldn't it be nice if a Mendelssohn overture collection also included The Two Pedagogues and The Uncle from Boston (!)? The Trumpet Overture (which he also adapted as the Overture to his revision of Handel's Israel in Egypt) is a fascinating midteens transitional work with its scampering passagework right out of the early string symphonies and then in the next measure it's like you've landed suddenly in the middle of Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage or the Hebrides, though these were several years in the future. Whiplash. (The overtures can be loaded as individual tracks on Amazon.)
Love the division. Pre-scarf and scarf. Definitely better before he wore it, even if not all of the music was top-drawer stuff.
"The scarf period" 😂🤣😄
I have noticed that creative people typically lose something as they pass 75 or so. It's often taste and knowledge of limitations.
At minimum the tempi strike me as way too fast here. Specifically with Mariners Romantic repertoire. This sense of urgency completely negates or robs the emotional potential in the score, at least sometimes for me. Just my opinion. Like there are too many people speaking at once.! Often to such a degree that I find it leads to interpretations that lack, simply put excitement. Which sounds like a contradiction as fast is always exciting right? Works great for me in the early baroque and early classical period pieces, especially on period instruments.
I am not a musician just an avid “all things classical” listener. The conductor needs to convince me that this composers particular piece is worth my attention. I don’t know if anyone agrees. I have some old Marriner vinyl that get a dust off to my applause.
Listening to Agon by Stravinsky. What a mind bend.. I never stop my fascination with this piece.
Edit Alert! You specifically referred to Beethoven's 9th WITHOUT TIE! :)
I know, but good catch! Sometimes I just need a change...
@@DavesClassicalGuide I understand...but we must uphold standards! :)
@@martinhochbaum8936 Very true!
Why the hell didn't they make a box of (all) his good recordings.
So sad😣
I agree with you completely on Marriner's strengths and weaknesses. I actually have his Capriccio recordings of Tchaikovsky 's syms 1 & 2 - another disc I purchased out of curiosity and played once.
Zzzzzzzz. I kept waiting in vain for some random moment of commitment or inspiration. Didn't happen.
The infamous ASMF Respighi disc is another example of a school of fish truly out of water (and ideas). No, no, no.
Shows how far behind i am. Never knew he strayed from the baroque/period instrument performances.
He never even started with period instrument performances. He mainly stuck with the Academy of St. Martin in the Fields for 17th/18th century stuff, then moved onto the Stuttgart Radio Symphony Orchestra and Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra for the later stuff (including a wonderful disc of Respighi's Ancient Airs and Dances with the LACO on EMI).
10:54 `you get other things` my mind was racing `not the 1812` oh we do!
Scarf period ...................... perhaps coincides with Lenny's sweater-over-the-shoulders, Radical Chic phase. Fashion fads don't wear well. Try showing your kids old photos of yourself in bell-bottoms.
I guess the box doesn't touch on them, but Marriner/ASMF recordings of 20thC music still sound fine to my ears - Bartok, Stravinsky and the Walton/Prokofiev adaptations. Again, no great depth of emotion called for.
Exactly.
Nonono Dave, after the scarf comes the last phase: the towel... Levine had one, Chailly has one... I have one, but it's being washed right now. Not a big fan of Marriner when he wasn't in his familiar 'fields'... But a great video nevertheless
I just HATE those CD covers with God-awful portrait photos of conductors. Always the epitomy of bad taste. Wide brimmed hats - always popular. Sometimes the granny-knitted wooly sweaters make an appearance, or there's the 'hard at work' approach; close-up, usually black and white of the conductor at full-pelt, beads of perspiration all over the place.... However, Karajan takes the biscuit - in leather on his motorbike! C'mon!!!
"The scarf period . . ."
Heh heh . . .
David, you need to give some of us who are drinking coffee some warning before you start talking about the scarf period!...