Hey! So, as promised, here's the list of songs I worked with: Ants Go Marching Baa Baa Black Sheep Bingo Farmer In The Dell Frere Jacques Happy Birthday Hokey Pokey Hush Little Baby I Love You, You Love Me I'm A Little Teapot I've Been Workin' On The Railroad Itsy Bitsy Spider London Bridge Is Falling Down Mary Had A Little Lamb Noble Duke Of York Old MacDonald On Top Of Spaghetti One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple People Eater Pop Goes The Weasel Puff The Magic Dragon Ring Around The Rosie Rock-a-bye Baby Row, Row, Row Your Boat The Song That Never Ends Three Blind Mice Wheels On The Bus
When my son was around 3 to 4, I would make up songs on the spot about his stuffed animals. The one he always liked singing started on chord 5 and the melody ran up from 5 up to the root then jump to the major 3rd. It too went up to the 6th (3rd of chord 4) I had half a dozen original songs about his animals though I can now, just 5 years later, only remember a couple. I do, however, remember the one I wrote in Phrygian made him cry
Kiro Notkiro I love music. It’s a big dopamine addiction for me. I got my son a Yamaha 61 note keyboard when he was 2. He still plays it, though prefers the Casio Privia 88 weighted key piano I swapped for a couple of bottles of wine (score !!!!) He also learns guitar, chose the clarinet to play in the school training band, and jumps on the drum kit whenever he can (when it’s set up - just because I own a kit, doesn’t mean I can play it....I just inherited it in leu of hard cash I lent someone) He can do basic sight reading, better than I can (it’s been 40 years for me) and he has an instrument in his hand around half the time he is looking at a screen....which I am rather stoked about :-) He also get on TH-cam and sits at the piano working stuff out. Ever since he started talking in sentences, I would play him chords and ask him to tell me which ones were “happy” chords and which ones were “sad” chords in the guitar to identify majors and minors. Occasionally I would throw major or dominant 7s in to add to the mix. He was always pretty good. I’ve only just got into the music theory in a serious way in the last few years, so I’m not going to have a son like Rick Biato’s but I do want him to have the fun I had, and the encouragement my family gave me even though the rest of them never played I also played him a lot of Oscar Peterson, Joe Pass, and The Beatles when it was time to sleep.
I know this is an old comment, and I'm not sure to what extent your Phrygian song was intended as a joke or not, but given that your son was so young at the time it suggests that cultural ideas of music are engrained at an extremely young age - perhaps even before children are able to develop proper memories. Phrygian is often used in 'scary' music or music intended to sound exotic/foreign (especially Middle Eastern). There's nothing intrinsically scary or upsetting about the mode (unless it was your lyrics that were causing him to cry!) and of course children in some cultures will have grown up with this mode and to them it will sound comforting. I'll have to do some research on this - interesting!
Oh gawd that's like a fart. Even though you know it stinks you smell it anyways... I wanna hear what you just described, even though I know it's going to sound like ass
Fun game: before watching the video, skip to a bit where the page is full of drawings and without proper context try and figure out what the hell is going on.
I think another reason “very old” is common among the most ubiquitous kids songs is the public domain. “Wheels on the bus” can appear in every toy guitar, singalong book, app background music, etc without license fees. Songs from the last 50 years generally only get used by the rightsholder for its original purpose, and don’t appear over and over in different contexts. So now the musical tropes set 100 years ago (when grownups music also followed many of these patterns maybe?) is the “sound” modern children’s musicians have to keep emulating 🤔
This is a hugely underrated comment. It’s similar to how most of the Christmas songs we know today are just old, and that’s why sometimes old jazz music just kind of sounds like “Christmas” because that’s almost all we ever hear of it.
As an elementary music teacher, I very much appreciated this video. One thing worth considering is the context in which you use the song. For example, I made up a quick 4 bar pentatonic melody for my kindergartners to pass a ball around the circle and they absolutely loved it. So much so, that their classroom teacher complained that they won't stop singing it. In this case, it was a simple melody with a simple game attached to it.
Great point! I wanted to get into some of the activity-related aspects of it (Say, the dances associated with the Hokey Pokey and London Bridge) but the script was quickly getting way too long for me so I had to cut that bit. Still, it's an important bit of context, thanks for mentioning it!
Just thought I'd add something as someone who probably has an entirely different culture: I live in Hong Kong, and the children songs here are.... a mix of a lot of things. I don't know the actual definition of "Children Song", so I'll just include everything that's "popular among children", which seems to be our definition here anyways Before I start tho there's a few background knowledge that would be important: 1. Because of how small our city is, there's been only 1 dominant media (aside from internet) for a long time. This affects a lot for the songs that would be played through our childhood. (From now on called TVB because that's what it is) 2. Chinese is a tonal language. That means that each word has an assigned tone, and the meaning (mostly) changes if the tone is changed. There are only 6 in Cantonese (4 in Mandarin), the most commonly-used dialect in HK. There's basically a few "categories" of Children Song here, divided by their origin: 1. *Commercial Songs*: This is not necessarily "advertisement" commercial, but are from some other animation franchises. These are played by the media enough to become well recognized among children, and some will consider them as Children Songs. They mostly have translated lyrics, but everything else is the same as the original. However, due to some people (mostly older population that also watches the show) preferring original versions, the songs recently aren't translated beyond subtitles anymore. This includes: It's a Small World (Disney), several songs from Japanese cartoon/anime like Doraemon, Keroro, Chibimaruko, Pokemon, Digimon, Sailor Moon etc 1a. *Original Commercial Songs*: When writing Chinese versions for those Anime/Cartoon songs, some of them have completely original melody. I reckon that is a thing in the West as well (eg Digimon), so there's that. This also somewhat counts towards the Category 3 here. Examples include: Pokemon, Digimon, Sailor Moon etc. 2. *"Borrowed Songs"*: This is like the Western children songs, but translated into Chinese. Like I mentioned earlier, Chinese is a tonal language, so trying to fit translated content directly into the tunes are usually VERY hard. Those that get translated directly include: Mary Had A Little Lamb (though the lyrics don't fit the tone), Twinkle Twinkle Little Star As a result the borrowed songs tend to have very different contents than those in the original. For example: "London Bridge is Falling Down" is now about "A little bird fell into the waters", "Frere Jacques" is now about "opening a mosquito tent", "I love you, you love me" is now about "brushing teeth", and interestingly, "Itsy Bitsy Spider" is now about "I'm a little teapot". There are also some children songs that borrow from non-children songs. The examples that I can recall is a song generally about "animals by the river" that is in the tune of "Jingle Bell", and there's one song that sound vaguely like a simplified version of Route 1 in pokemon red/blue, but I can't find the song anymore. 3. *Original songs*: You mentioned how the Children Songs you find are mostly very old, but it seems to be the opposite here. These are the songs created by TVB + some from Guangdong province maybe, but are mostly original (some maybe new lyrics for familiar tunes). According to this HK Wikia (evchk.wikia.com/wiki/%E5%85%92%E6%AD%8C, note: in Chinese), it can be divided into 5 eras depending on the children show airing at the time, + a few uncategorized (from Guangdong or other places). Sadly because of how brutal our education system is, no one has the time for children shows anymore, and these are getting less known. 4. *Traditional songs/Lullabies*: These are the songs that fits your "enculturation" point the most. Most of these much less like the western children songs, but are like "Sprechgesangs"(?) in that the tones in the sentences IS the melody of the song. That added with rhymes is basically already considered a song. And for the musical properties, it honestly depends on which kind of children song you're referring to. For the last 2 categories, here's a few: *Original songs*: Musical scale: Mostly Major. I haven't exactly analyzed deeply into each of them, but because of how our language works, most songs basically aren't afraid of using the "dissonant notes" (or even non-scale notes) of the scale. Musical range: Depends. Because most melodies are shaped after the tone of the lyrics, some simple ones (小明小明小小明, a 1-sentence-long "song" that is used when playing some variant of rock-paper-scissors) has as little as a range as around a perfect fifth, and there are quite a number of them that are a major seventh, octave, or a ninth wide. Motion: Again because of how our language works (syllable tones may slide up and down like the tone use in a question), a phrase would consist of something from several whole-tone/semi-tone slides to major fifth skips. For example 何家小雞何家猜 (another RPS accompaniment song) with the first 2 phrases skipping a major forth and thus spanning a whole octave, but the main chorus motif only consists of 1st and 5th notes, with the phrase moving up and down a whole tone. Length: Depends. Most of those that I know of are only a bit shorter than modern-day pop songs (because of similar influence), while some of them are about as long as the western children songs. The latter tends to be remembered more, while for the former most will only recall a part of. Other techniques (such as Rounds): Doesn't exist here. Some songs may include rap/tongue twister parts (especially the Siu Ming series), but that's it. *Traditional songs*: Music scale/Musical range: Doesn't exist? Again these are more like spoken, rhythmic, rhyming phrases that are considered "songs" for reasons. They more like poetry in their structure, with (mostly) fixed number of characters (syllables) in each phrase, and some phrases follow a similar pattern. 月光光 (The Bright Moonlight or something) for example has a whole section with the pattern of "AAA is too BBB, so we CCC instead". They are catchy in this way, and that's why they are passed on. Some of these are reharmonized and fitted into a major scale, but the original ones don't have any actual "functional" melody. Length: Tends to be long, and without memorizing intentionally one would probably only remember the first few phrases.
Isn't Frere Jacques' tune also the one that Chinese song about the running tigers missing certain body parts is sung to? I remember that being the one Chinese song I was taught to sing, dunno if it's that well known in Hong Kong.
For the song which sounds like Pokemon Route 1's theme, try looking up Polly Silly Doodle; it's an American song with a similar tune, & it might've been translated at some time.
In Norway, a lot of children's songs are in minor. Actually most 'traditional' children's songs are. Of the ones that are major, we've usually got them from the rest of Europe. This isn't to mean that they are sad. Different minor scales are more prevalent in Norwegian folk music, and therefore don't have as strong of a 'sad' connotation.
Even the minor scale in like classical or pop music doesn’t always sound sad lol Honestly the minor scale is better imo if you are trying to make music with a casual sound to it Edit: just realized this is 5 years old. Whatever
Great video. I think one point you missed about the "lowest note" is that it's actually really important that the song doesn't go much lower than where it starts because kids don't have a good understanding of their range yet. They need to start where they feel comfortable and know that they can confidently make it through the whole thing
A similar analysis of Christmas/holiday songs might be fun. Every year people try to write a new standard and most of them -- while probably fine songs -- will never be sung a capella by a family while decorating a Christmas tree. Why? Hmm.
well for one, there is a big difference between a melody written for a pop song and a melody written for casual singing. even outside the topic of difficulty, Christmas carols have a fairly constant melody, whereas pop Christmas songs have a melody that comes in and out, with instrumental breaks in between that would be awkward for casual singing.
I think that's true of traditional carols, but not so much for the holiday songs of the first part of the 20th century. These were more like pop songs in structure and harmony, but easily singable by children and adults without accompaniment. The writers of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Walking in a Winter Wonderland" knew something that those of "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" and "Please Come Home for Christmas" didn't (whatever the merits any of them had as pop songs).
I was recently watching Sideways's video for Home Alone, which said that nostalgia is the bread and butter of that Christmas-y feel, so it's a very rare and lengthy process for Christmas songs to catch on.
As music is personal, I thought I'd share my daughters current preferences, which as she is soon three years old is quite fun. She has a definite love for "children's songs"... a la "Johnny Johnny" and "Baby Shark" (fair enough, the latter us damn catchy)... But has a particular affection for SOAD's "Toxicity" and Devin Townsend's "Almost Again". She even likes a bit of Protest the Hero... I admit I poisoned her mother's womb with classical music back in the day, but I'm still proud she'll rock out to the crap I like :D
At first I was a bit surprised that a 3 year old would love Toxicity but thinking about it, that song does have a manic energy to it much like the manic energy of a three year old so it makes sense. Tell her to rock on.
Looking back, I realize how complex the song I wrote when I was four was for, you know, a song written by a four-year-old. It was in a minor scale and had a time signature of 3/4, which is... totally in line with the types of songs I liked when I was little.
It would be interesting to make the same kind of analysis on some other cultures (eastern, african, etc) to see the degree of different traits that are passed through enculturation.
Thought I’d share these, I was playing some intervals for my son who’s almost five months old and he lit up when I played fifths but was fairly indifferent to others. Of course ai’ve been singing/playing for him since he was born so that may just be culture.
A lot of "children's songs" involve movements or a game - the hand motions of "Itsy Bitsy Spider" or the selection process of "London Bridge", or the songs that are self-contained dances (like the Mexican Hat Dance or the Chicken Dance). It's hard to get kids to just sit still and sing!
You're completely welcome.Another point to consider is that a lot of the more physical children's songs (especially the Chicken Dance) become seriously hilarious when performed by drunk adults at a wedding or party :-)
Music lover with a 2 month old here. Appreciated this video! I’ve been thinking about how I can make children’s music enjoyable for myself and my daughter. I got some insight from this video, thanks!
Do you think we're doing kids a disservice musically by only singing and playing these simplistic songs at a young age? Considering how kids can learn so much at that age wouldn't it be better to play them more complex music? I feel like part of why we sing these songs is not because kids like them, but because parents can sing them easier, or because we think kids will like the simple songs. Like you said, "simple sounds like children's songs." I will say that my almost 2 year old daughter likes when I sing the ABC's, but she also totally lost her shit and danced like she was possessed when I played her "Sir Duke." So idk.
Reminds me how I've recently seen my 4yo son listening to "Out" by Stroke - an old industrial song by a largely forgotten band I accidentally left on in the car - he tensed up during the buildup and then did a perfect "that's some good shit" face once the main riff kicked in. Kids can enjoy far more complicated and dissonant music than we give them credit for, though that does not necessarily mean they would like singing them.
Nicholas Casbarra No, because one, reading is a skill he still needs to learn; two, reading dramas out loud makes no sense, these are supposed to be acted out; three, some themes in Macbeth are not suitable for children; four, I imagine even for adults reading Macbeth is difficult due to the outdated language and five, English is not my mother tongue. But I do read some more complex stuff to him, e. g. full versions of brothers' Grimm folk tales (at least those not too scary) - one of them takes me usually a full week of bedside reading to complete.
Very interesting analysis of a subject not often explored, and very proper to cite the cultural context in which it's rooted. I'm curious what people from other cultures would point to as examples of children's songs. On a side note, I felt bad for the octopus that had some tentacles amputated due to scale tone disuse and hope he had good health insurance (assuming he doesn't live somewhere with decent public medical care given the previously-cited cultural context).
I'm from Russia, and the main difference I spotted was that we don't have so many "children's folk songs", so to say. Most of the songs I remember from my childhood came from proffessionl poets and composers who specialized in making children's songs (mostly they're songs from Soviet kids' animation, but not necessarily), so naturally they're more complex in form, melody and sometimes even rhythm, but I don't remember that we experienced any difficulties singing them.
I think Russian children's folk songs are less common because of our rather brutal history. The closest I can think of are the Christmas songs, "в лесу родилась ёлочка" and "маленькой ёлочке холодно зимой". Probably because they were sung by urban lower-middle classes whom the Bolsheviks didn't brutalize this much. The state substituted for family in some aspects of bringing children up, and they were expected to sing songs like this th-cam.com/video/WdFls1gclZc/w-d-xo.html as they grew up. Overall, I think in Russia there's less expectation from little children to sing, so the songs can afford being more complex. A common Russian children's song, в "траве сидел кузнечик" (th-cam.com/video/DgqR_aoNipE/w-d-xo.html) uses harmonic minor. (By the way, event though this song was used in a cartoon, it's not strongly associated with it, so it might actually be a folk song. Edit: nevermind, it was written by Vladimir Shainsky like everything else.) Also, the main theme from the oldest Russian children's TV show (th-cam.com/video/QffKbNB8SDw/w-d-xo.html) is gratuitously jazzy.
Another folk song I could think of was Каравай, but that seems to be pretty much it. That's an interesting view on it, but then most of Russian children's poetry came in early Soviet period and was for the most part free of ideology, like Chukovsky, Marshak, Zakhoder etc. I mean those who remained in popular memory, because ideological children's poetry did exist but mostly of very low quality and didn't survive the test of time (except Mikhalkov and Mayakovsky, but even speaking of them, their non-ideological poems are remembered way better). So the idea of the importance of quality children's content did exist even in the most brutal time, but for some reason children's songwriting was practically non-existent in those days, with patriotic songs serving as the subsitution, as you pointed out. So it's hard to figure out why the golden age of children's poetry came in the first half of the century while the golden age of children's songs came in the post-Stalin era. Probably it still has to do with the emergence of animation.
I appreciate the comments and examples. Harmonic minor seems to get no love in Western children's music for some reason. Perhaps that's a conscious attempt to shelter them from the emotional strife that exists in real life. Realistically there should be more flat 3rds, lol.
In Indonesia, the majority of our children music is written by just three people, Saridjah Niung (Ibu Soed), A. T. Mahmud, and Soerjono (Pak Kasur). Indonesian was only used as the national language during the colonial era, and that's when Indonesian children songs were written. We don't have any old songs at all.
For the outliers it might be worth looking into which started life as popular music for general audiences and migrated into the category of children's songs rather than being written specifically for children. In the U.S. a lot of Vaudeville and Minstrel Show numbers are still a core part of children's music as well as several pieces to come out of the Folk movement.
They have to emphasize the root and fifth so much probably because they don’t use enough of the scale to be definitively in major otherwise. Especially because the 7th being left out really takes a huge hit to the tonality of Ionian.
I would be interested in hearing or seeing what your version of "The Song that Never Ends" is. I think it would be fun to analyze the differences. The only thing I got wrong was that the words are "This is the song that doesn't end," not "never ends." That is, assuming the original is by Lambchop and her friends.
The biggest difference between my version and the Lambchop one (Besides the lyrics) is that in mine, the second line jumps up in the middle to avoid dipping below the 5th. Instead of walking down like 7-6-5-4-3, it goes 7-6-5-2-1. (The 5-2 move is ascending.)
That's interesting, as it creates a bit of rest with that 1 at the end, instead of the 3 which makes it feel like it'e going to keep going In fact, I'd probably use that alteration to actually end the song!
I listened to the original Lamb Chop version and even though the first go 'round sings 7-6-5-4-3, when the other voices join I'm hearing the 2-1 harmonizing it above. So this change may not be all that recent!
That's very Happy Birthday To You with the 5-2-1. So in the video you mention that it makes the range smaller, it also makes the melody immediately more familiar.
Another point to make is that many of these songs probably didn't start out as children's songs. They simply became so over time. London Bridge, for example, was probably a popular reference to the many times the bridge has had to be rebuilt. And I've Been Workin' on the Railroad, is, I believe, originally a song by the 19th century railroad workers (too obvious?).
I was looking through your spreadsheet, and I saw a few that weren't originally children's songs, but were "borrowed" by the children's-music genre. One example was "On Top Of Spaghetti," which is a parody of the folk song "On Top Of Old Smoky," which is about a lost love. Another example was "The Ants Go Marching," which was borrowed from the Civil War-era song "When Johnny Comes Marching Home." Edit: You could make an argument for "The Purple People Eater" to be included in this list, and definitely "I've Been Workin' On the Railroad," which Wikipedia claims actually includes two different songs: The "Dinah" part at the end may actually be taken from a folk song that predated the Railroad part. That would explain why those songs may be exceptions in one way or another; I'm curious how your data changes when you pull those out.
"I've Been Working On The Railroad" may be an outlier in your analysis simply because it might not have been created as a song for children. No one's too sure about the origins, but I wouldn't be surprised if this folk song originated from railroad workers passing the time away.
Likel;y is, probably was also popular in the general public before it got handed down to kids through long term enculturation (for another example see How Dry I Am or Clementine)
I do like that observation about simple sounding like children's songs - the things we were exposed to as children define what we think of as simple and childish. At first glance that might sound trivial, but it is an extremely important observation!
In Denmark we have numerous relatively modern children's songs. Often from pop music aimed at small children or from TV shows. They do target slightly older children, like above 5 than the really simple ones you were talking about here.
Quite honestly, alot of the childrens shows i watched as a kid [i'm kinda young] had alot of jazz chords, i never went for this pentatonic stuff, i'm thankful the shows i watched got me into jazz chords
I'd love to see a more in-depth take on this! I wanna know about specific songs and what specific things they each do. As teacher I'd like to subvert these things and show young learners that music comes from everywhere and is different from what may be familiar, but that that is an okay and even good thing. Regardless, this is a really great video and has given me a lot to think about as both a musician and educator!
You know, I was thinking about this earlier as well. I was thinking about how Rusty Cage made The Knife Game Song and how he said his intention was to make it sound like a traditional song, and he absolutely nailed that with the melody and chords; I could've sworn he just put his own lyrics over a traditional song I didn't know the name of. I also thought the same thing about the Baby Shark song that's been popular lately. Wikipedia says that the song came from the 1900s, but there's no citation, and I can't find any sources that prove that.
LimeGreenTeknii Every simple, straightforward melody under two bars or so has already been done. We may not recognize them due to more or less ornamentation and pickup notes or passing tones, but they've all been done.
I sang Baby Shark at camp in the mid-1990's, so it's at least that old... The version I know isn't quite like the dancy one I heard recently, though - it's more like this: th-cam.com/video/GR2o6k8aPlI/w-d-xo.html
I've Been Working on the Railroad is a great example. My babysitter when I was a kid was the chainsmoking Republican committeewoman for my grandmother's neighborhood (my grandmother was the Democratic committeewoman, and was very political, but was friends with the Republican one, so that gives a bit of strange insight into how American politics has changed in the past generation). But one song I remember she really liked singing to her grandchildren (who she also babysat alongside us) was that song. Your insight into how it's kind of odd as children's songs go reminded me of how I thought it was odd back then too. It just juts into that part about "Someone's in the kitchen with Dina. . ." out of nowhere, and I remember feeling like as a child it was a non sequitur to the rest of the song both musically and in terms of plot/story. I guess if I sat down and thought about it now in a more sophisticated way I'd probably have to admit that it's likely got some kind of progression/key center relationship tying it all together (I haven't thought through the intervals yet, so I don't know) but definitely that Dina lady comes out of nowhere.
Dude. One of the coolest videos you've ever done and one of my favourites on youtube, this was awesome! Keep up the good work! Also I nearly died when you drew the hookshot 😍
This video was really good. I think it would be interesting to get a similar list of English and Irish children's songs (where there's some overlap) and compare and contrast to see if anything musically is stressed more there than it is here.
Ants go marching by is a very sad war song, that somehow made it to become a children´s song. You find it, for example, as the whistle in the beggining of "Civil War" by Guns and Roses.
You commented that "I've been working on the railroad" has a longer structure...perhaps because it didn't start out as a children's song? It started out as a work song. I'll bet a lot of work songs also share some similar characteristics. I have an old book of work songs published around 1912 that lists it. According to Wikipedia, it was first published in 1894. I suppose it could have been around in popular culture before it was published.
From Britain I think I would add London's Burning London Bridge is Falling Down The Grand Old Duke of York Oranges and Lemons Head, Shoulders knees and toes Hot Cross Buns
Rounds are actually a great way of teaching children how to sing parts. There are SO many people who cannot sing harmony. They always sing the melody even if they're trying to sing harmony. Being able to hold a part in a round can help a child practice singing things that aren't what everyone else is singing.
Love all your work! I was wondering whether you'd consider doing a harmonic analysis video on 'Reckless' by Australian Crawl. This is quite a well known song in Australia, but I don't think it is in the rest of the world. Cheers!
Gosh! The songs I heard when I was a small child, especially in primary School. The Austrian yodling song on a mountain top high and he met with all of these hazards interupting his cry... which my music teacher used to really belt out the beginning of the chorus the, HOLEA... which made me immediately, block my ears and caused me to have serious, nightmares with feelings of impending death by explosion when I woke up, hence why the number 3, well, I will always, have a love hate relationship with it. A lot of other children's songs I had on cassette tapes, but sadly, never found out the names of these cassette tapes save one, Wally Whyton's nursery rhymes, which is safely stored away in a box of cassette based memories under my bed, nearly 40 years after I became addicted to it. I wish I could find the A to Z of audio books theme songs on a double cassette tape, starting with a very cool jazzy version of ABC, then working through the other 25 songs there. I remember, A, b, C, d, f, h, j, k, m, n, o, p, s, t, v, x, y and z on this cassette were all my favourites.
"The ants go marching one by one" I assume is allowed to be in minor because it is "When Johnny come marching home" with different lyrics. The march was probably so well known that it got away with uncommon features. It also is a bit creepy in sound.
Heh, the major scale observation made me laugh. -I guess Central and North European children's songs ingrain minor scales more than do American ones, especially lullabies.
Here in Brazil we have a children's song in minor with a 10th interval and presenting an descending arpeggio right at the start. It's like a virtuoso-goth nursery rhyme
Not only does "I've Been Working on the Railroad" differ in those ways from other children's music, but it also feels different in its general musical vocabulary and source material too--less Western concert and folk music and more like some sort of blues form, right down to how multiple children might sing it--as a call and response, trading lines, rather than a round.
Here’s another thought. You learn and/or reinforce these songs in music class. For a very long time, pedagogy has been to start with simple, short, major-key songs because the musical concepts we are teaching lend themselves to such music. You likely also learned some songs that you’ll never remember. The easiest way for kids to understand the minor key is to first understand major. So naturally, as you get older you start learning minor key songs. But by then you’re probably not singing songs from school much for fun in the street. Even if you did not have music in elementary school, kids you hung out with probably did, or their older siblings, etc. So it’s just the order teachers teach, maybe?
Nice video :-) One thing you forgot is that instrumentation is important. Melodies on the glockenspiel seem childlike, while that same melody in a horn ensemble probably gives it a way different feel.
From my past studies of folk music in the UK, Australia and the US, I would suggest: 1. Older melodies are more likely to be pentatonic, and 2. Older melodies that include the 4th are most likely to include it in a 5-4-3 or 5-4-3-2-1, where the 4th is a passing note rather than a harmonic note. These songs, according to ethnomusicologists such as Kodály and his disciples, are the most natural to sing, as young children from these cultures don't typically sing semitones in tune.
i was really expecting you to mention this, and actually this is something I didn't notice till much later in my life, but the melody for the ABC's song and twinkle twinkle little star and Ba ba black sheep are the same..
I wonder how this analysis holds up with the children's songs we have here in Norway. I mean, some are just translations of some of the ones you have on your list, but we do also have our own. Then of course there is the whole separate sub genre of children's christmas music, which Im guessing must produce some sort of self-unique patterns of its own.
Korn used nursery rhymes in Shoots and Ladders and Red Hot Chili Peppers references Twinkle Twinkle Little Star in Apache Rose Peacock, which Californication had a similar line to.
Any thoughts on the durability of these songs and rhymes? There is a great book, "One Potato, Two Potato" by Mary and Herbert Knapp that takes a dive into it.
huh, Ants Go Marching was my favorite of those as a kid, probably because of the minor key. i just thought it sounded super cool and unique to the other stuff. Even now I tend to like minor over major.
It might be interesting to see some analysis of songs in children's television and film, and how tightly they knit to these trends - From my childhood things like Maid Marion and Her Merry Men and Spider, from stuff after and before that I distinctly know had musical numbers in them T-Bag and Horrible Histories, but boy howdy am I not the person to do such analysis.
The first thing I thought about wasn't even mentioned. Maybe because it's present not only in children's music, but in fairy all music. I think about a repetition. Especially repeting patterns with some changes, for example the same rhythmical pattern, but slightly different melody, like in the Wheels on the Bus for example (bar 2-4)
This explains why Every time I play a major progression, to my barely trained ear I often hear Childrens song...a lot. Most Row your boat and Twinkle little star.
If I remember right "I've been working on the Railroad" wasn't originally a children's song; that might explain it's relative complexity. Same goes for "Ants Go Marching" & "On Top of Spaghetti;" they're folk songs with new kid-friendly lyrics.
tymime I've just found out about this song's english version and as I suspected, it has some relationship with a very popular polish children's song 'Wlazł kotek na płotek' which is even simpler than the english one. According to Wikipedia the English version was inspired by the polish one.
12tone There’s more than one tune floating around, though. The first version I heard (which isn’t the first known version of the song) sounds VERY different.
The video itself looks so simple as children's music but I can tell that there is a huge backstage work on it. I think that you worked too hard and It deserves more thumbs up... Thank you.
FFS. This explains the popularity of Baby Shark and Finger Family songs (the music that babies of 2015 and onward will grow up listening to). Great Video
Ohhh and there goes baby shark with the static melodies, starting on the fifth, but including the seventh actually ending on it before starting the next measure on the fifth! Which usually doesn’t happen.
While watching this video I couldn't help but think of Stravinsky, and how he composed 12-tone "children's songs" in an effort to avoid giving children musical biases. Not only is that idea impossible (there's always going to be some amount of bias -- Stravinsky still used standard rhythms and 12TET tuning), I think this video also hints at why that goal isn't really worthwhile either.
One might conclude that humans have some intrinsic bias for a dramatic cycle of tension and release. "Academic" forms like tone rows and overly strange rhythms don't conform to the "more-or-less predictable with occasional surprises and twists" form that humans find appealing. Movies that have no discernible plot are also generally unpopular.
When I was a kid I liked most of the records my older brother was buying. Including many Beatles songs from the white album. Tell me Dear Prudence, isn't a children's song. I think we underestimate what kids would like.
How about rhythm? I believe with harmonies being simplified in commercial music but rhythm becoming more complicated and more expressive, children's songs could be written today with greater rhythmic variety. I'd also expect that a fair amount feature arpeggios. Some could incorporate fun features that you don't always find, sich as repeating the song up by a whole tone each time, or adding glissandos.
I couldn't fit it in, but I did check the rhythms, and they're mostly fairly simple: Very few of the songs contained any noteworthy syncopation. However, triplets and compound meter weren't uncommon features.
What about classical children's music? Peter and the Wolf, Carnival of the Animals, Hansel and Gretel... These are parts of the western canon specifically designed to teach children. I grew up with them, including field trips to the local symphony to hear the first two in special school district matinees.
I only know 10 songs from your list. Many of our traditional kids songs are abandoned and never passed down at all. Most of the kids songs in my country made in 80's - 90's. How can there's no new kids songs written in america when youre a kid?
Merci beaucoup for this. And thanks to you comments section. You really don't have a lot of trolls, which makes for a pleasant and educational experience. The only "children's song" I would hesitatingly add would be "The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Oul", though I think there is another title. I'm pretty sure it's minor, and it could be in a dark mode. I never went to Band Camp, and joked until I was 65 that I was born with two left ears. But I started piano at 65, like my Mom. She played for another 20+ years, so I'll invite you to my first concert...in 2043. I might do a collection of Children's Songs.
I learned to count to 12 with this song and it's stayed with me all my life. I still find it triggered by things and catch myself singing it in my 40's lol! No need to go through to number 12 unless anyone wants the cartoon or the slight song differences between the numbers. The sung featured number lyrics are pretty interesting too however. The entire composition as music is pretty amazing. I didn't appreciate it as a kid but I do now. th-cam.com/video/VOaZbaPzdsk/w-d-xo.html I'm too new to theory and music to analyze the song, but it's one anyone growing up in the USA on sesame street in my generation knows.
Wasn't Ants Go Marching taken from a military tune? Maybe that's why it's one of the few that's in minor scale, being adapted from a different purpose. And that might explain I've Been Workin' On The Railroad too, its name kind of suggests it began as a folk song that was sung while, y'know, working on a railroad, so it's unusual because it was repurposed, and not written as a children's song. Though I guess that's likely the case with a lot of these children's songs, which probably start out as just folk tunes? So I guess it's less a question of how people write songs for kids than what qualities of a song will make it lend itself to be sung to kids. Also, isn't Baa Baa Black Sheep just Twinkle Twinkle Little Star with more static motion added? Though you could put the static motion on the second verse but not the first, then it's the ABCs instead.
I think this whole video brings up a larger discussion as to whether songs taught to children should be revised considering the vast majority of music created at this time strays from western European classical
My understanding about I've Been Working on the Railroad is that it is a medly of three earlier 19th century popular songs, so it's no wonder it's both long and weird.
In my church, the hymns are (relatively) simple, and the children’s music is complex. I think the main reason is because learning music is a big part of their Sunday school lessons. Try searching “I’m trying to be like Jesus”, or “primary music LDS”.
A couple of other variables that might be relevant to assessing what goes into kids songs might be the skill level of the composers(were they professional vs folk musicians) and also The perceived skill level of musician consumers 100+ years ago when these songs were created. I am assuming that the people performing music for children likely were non-professionals and would have a limited skills repertoire. music would likely be formatted to be within their wheelhouse.
Ella Jenkins is a folk singer of Children's songs, some traditional and some original. In "Sifting in the Sand," she foregoes melody in place of having children quietly chanting "Sifting in the Sand (2X)". She repeats "I am in the kitchen with a potato in my hand," with more dread in her prosody and tone with each repeat. It's like she's about to get caught trespassing by a schoolboy. It's the anti-"Camp Town Races."
i have never liked major chord songs, so I always mixed in a lot of minor key songs for sleepy time (i wonder if that would make a good analysis?). All the Pretty Horses, and Momma's Gonna Buy You A ... (don't remember the name). I also tended to sing a few non-major Christmas songs, as he was a baby and wouldn't know, like the Coventry Carol, Gabriel's Message (really, motherly songs), and then White Christmas, which I've always liked.
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Hey! So, as promised, here's the list of songs I worked with:
Ants Go Marching
Baa Baa Black Sheep
Bingo
Farmer In The Dell
Frere Jacques
Happy Birthday
Hokey Pokey
Hush Little Baby
I Love You, You Love Me
I'm A Little Teapot
I've Been Workin' On The Railroad
Itsy Bitsy Spider
London Bridge Is Falling Down
Mary Had A Little Lamb
Noble Duke Of York
Old MacDonald
On Top Of Spaghetti
One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple People Eater
Pop Goes The Weasel
Puff The Magic Dragon
Ring Around The Rosie
Rock-a-bye Baby
Row, Row, Row Your Boat
The Song That Never Ends
Three Blind Mice
Wheels On The Bus
As someone from York, Yorkshire, England I have always learn the GRAND OLD Duke of York
No Twinkle Twinkle Little Star/Alphabet Song? Actually that song exhibits most of the properties you discuss in the video as well.
The only one of those that I have never heard is "On Top Of Spaghetti".
In Canada we also learn the "Grand Old" Duke of York.
@@jbejaran Those two songs share a melody with Baa Baa Black Sheep if that helps explain any
Those two are the same melody as Baa Baa Black Sheep, which if I remember right is a Beethoven piece.
When my son was around 3 to 4, I would make up songs on the spot about his stuffed animals. The one he always liked singing started on chord 5 and the melody ran up from 5 up to the root then jump to the major 3rd. It too went up to the 6th (3rd of chord 4)
I had half a dozen original songs about his animals though I can now, just 5 years later, only remember a couple.
I do, however, remember the one I wrote in Phrygian made him cry
you are at the same level with the real christopher robin's dad with parenting, bless your soul
Kiro Notkiro I love music. It’s a big dopamine addiction for me. I got my son a Yamaha 61 note keyboard when he was 2. He still plays it, though prefers the Casio Privia 88 weighted key piano I swapped for a couple of bottles of wine (score !!!!)
He also learns guitar, chose the clarinet to play in the school training band, and jumps on the drum kit whenever he can (when it’s set up - just because I own a kit, doesn’t mean I can play it....I just inherited it in leu of hard cash I lent someone)
He can do basic sight reading, better than I can (it’s been 40 years for me) and he has an instrument in his hand around half the time he is looking at a screen....which I am rather stoked about :-)
He also get on TH-cam and sits at the piano working stuff out.
Ever since he started talking in sentences, I would play him chords and ask him to tell me which ones were “happy” chords and which ones were “sad” chords in the guitar to identify majors and minors. Occasionally I would throw major or dominant 7s in to add to the mix. He was always pretty good.
I’ve only just got into the music theory in a serious way in the last few years, so I’m not going to have a son like Rick Biato’s but I do want him to have the fun I had, and the encouragement my family gave me even though the rest of them never played
I also played him a lot of Oscar Peterson, Joe Pass, and The Beatles when it was time to sleep.
The Phrygian part made my day 😂
Victor Wooten's TEDx video about musical education is very interesting on this subject too, when you talked about having fun I remembered it.
I know this is an old comment, and I'm not sure to what extent your Phrygian song was intended as a joke or not, but given that your son was so young at the time it suggests that cultural ideas of music are engrained at an extremely young age - perhaps even before children are able to develop proper memories. Phrygian is often used in 'scary' music or music intended to sound exotic/foreign (especially Middle Eastern). There's nothing intrinsically scary or upsetting about the mode (unless it was your lyrics that were causing him to cry!) and of course children in some cultures will have grown up with this mode and to them it will sound comforting. I'll have to do some research on this - interesting!
Dammit! I thought kids liked long, atonal melodies with nestled tuplets, all backed by a loud, chromatically descending tritone played on bagpipes.
of course, that's why they play recorder like they do
Same ):
I kind of want to hear someone do that now
Oh gawd that's like a fart. Even though you know it stinks you smell it anyways... I wanna hear what you just described, even though I know it's going to sound like ass
Maybe that’s why children are so bad these days.....
Fun game: before watching the video, skip to a bit where the page is full of drawings and without proper context try and figure out what the hell is going on.
i went straight to 2:21
so interesting...
thnxbiloljkroflbrb
Fun game, try to just figure out what's going on without skipping to any crazy part LMAO
I think another reason “very old” is common among the most ubiquitous kids songs is the public domain. “Wheels on the bus” can appear in every toy guitar, singalong book, app background music, etc without license fees. Songs from the last 50 years generally only get used by the rightsholder for its original purpose, and don’t appear over and over in different contexts. So now the musical tropes set 100 years ago (when grownups music also followed many of these patterns maybe?) is the “sound” modern children’s musicians have to keep emulating 🤔
This is a hugely underrated comment. It’s similar to how most of the Christmas songs we know today are just old, and that’s why sometimes old jazz music just kind of sounds like “Christmas” because that’s almost all we ever hear of it.
Now I can create all the creepy ironic nursery rhymes I've ever dreamed of!
Oh no
As an elementary music teacher, I very much appreciated this video. One thing worth considering is the context in which you use the song. For example, I made up a quick 4 bar pentatonic melody for my kindergartners to pass a ball around the circle and they absolutely loved it. So much so, that their classroom teacher complained that they won't stop singing it. In this case, it was a simple melody with a simple game attached to it.
Great point! I wanted to get into some of the activity-related aspects of it (Say, the dances associated with the Hokey Pokey and London Bridge) but the script was quickly getting way too long for me so I had to cut that bit. Still, it's an important bit of context, thanks for mentioning it!
6:57 "Pretty NOTEworthy"? Oh 12tone, you slay me!
Duly noted.
This guy's so sharp, it's noteworthy.
Just thought I'd add something as someone who probably has an entirely different culture:
I live in Hong Kong, and the children songs here are.... a mix of a lot of things. I don't know the actual definition of "Children Song", so I'll just include everything that's "popular among children", which seems to be our definition here anyways
Before I start tho there's a few background knowledge that would be important:
1. Because of how small our city is, there's been only 1 dominant media (aside from internet) for a long time. This affects a lot for the songs that would be played through our childhood. (From now on called TVB because that's what it is)
2. Chinese is a tonal language. That means that each word has an assigned tone, and the meaning (mostly) changes if the tone is changed. There are only 6 in Cantonese (4 in Mandarin), the most commonly-used dialect in HK.
There's basically a few "categories" of Children Song here, divided by their origin:
1. *Commercial Songs*: This is not necessarily "advertisement" commercial, but are from some other animation franchises. These are played by the media enough to become well recognized among children, and some will consider them as Children Songs. They mostly have translated lyrics, but everything else is the same as the original. However, due to some people (mostly older population that also watches the show) preferring original versions, the songs recently aren't translated beyond subtitles anymore. This includes: It's a Small World (Disney), several songs from Japanese cartoon/anime like Doraemon, Keroro, Chibimaruko, Pokemon, Digimon, Sailor Moon etc
1a. *Original Commercial Songs*: When writing Chinese versions for those Anime/Cartoon songs, some of them have completely original melody. I reckon that is a thing in the West as well (eg Digimon), so there's that. This also somewhat counts towards the Category 3 here. Examples include: Pokemon, Digimon, Sailor Moon etc.
2. *"Borrowed Songs"*: This is like the Western children songs, but translated into Chinese. Like I mentioned earlier, Chinese is a tonal language, so trying to fit translated content directly into the tunes are usually VERY hard. Those that get translated directly include: Mary Had A Little Lamb (though the lyrics don't fit the tone), Twinkle Twinkle Little Star
As a result the borrowed songs tend to have very different contents than those in the original. For example: "London Bridge is Falling Down" is now about "A little bird fell into the waters", "Frere Jacques" is now about "opening a mosquito tent", "I love you, you love me" is now about "brushing teeth", and interestingly, "Itsy Bitsy Spider" is now about "I'm a little teapot".
There are also some children songs that borrow from non-children songs. The examples that I can recall is a song generally about "animals by the river" that is in the tune of "Jingle Bell", and there's one song that sound vaguely like a simplified version of Route 1 in pokemon red/blue, but I can't find the song anymore.
3. *Original songs*: You mentioned how the Children Songs you find are mostly very old, but it seems to be the opposite here. These are the songs created by TVB + some from Guangdong province maybe, but are mostly original (some maybe new lyrics for familiar tunes). According to this HK Wikia (evchk.wikia.com/wiki/%E5%85%92%E6%AD%8C, note: in Chinese), it can be divided into 5 eras depending on the children show airing at the time, + a few uncategorized (from Guangdong or other places). Sadly because of how brutal our education system is, no one has the time for children shows anymore, and these are getting less known.
4. *Traditional songs/Lullabies*: These are the songs that fits your "enculturation" point the most. Most of these much less like the western children songs, but are like "Sprechgesangs"(?) in that the tones in the sentences IS the melody of the song. That added with rhymes is basically already considered a song.
And for the musical properties, it honestly depends on which kind of children song you're referring to. For the last 2 categories, here's a few:
*Original songs*:
Musical scale: Mostly Major. I haven't exactly analyzed deeply into each of them, but because of how our language works, most songs basically aren't afraid of using the "dissonant notes" (or even non-scale notes) of the scale.
Musical range: Depends. Because most melodies are shaped after the tone of the lyrics, some simple ones (小明小明小小明, a 1-sentence-long "song" that is used when playing some variant of rock-paper-scissors) has as little as a range as around a perfect fifth, and there are quite a number of them that are a major seventh, octave, or a ninth wide.
Motion: Again because of how our language works (syllable tones may slide up and down like the tone use in a question), a phrase would consist of something from several whole-tone/semi-tone slides to major fifth skips. For example 何家小雞何家猜 (another RPS accompaniment song) with the first 2 phrases skipping a major forth and thus spanning a whole octave, but the main chorus motif only consists of 1st and 5th notes, with the phrase moving up and down a whole tone.
Length: Depends. Most of those that I know of are only a bit shorter than modern-day pop songs (because of similar influence), while some of them are about as long as the western children songs. The latter tends to be remembered more, while for the former most will only recall a part of.
Other techniques (such as Rounds): Doesn't exist here. Some songs may include rap/tongue twister parts (especially the Siu Ming series), but that's it.
*Traditional songs*:
Music scale/Musical range: Doesn't exist? Again these are more like spoken, rhythmic, rhyming phrases that are considered "songs" for reasons. They more like poetry in their structure, with (mostly) fixed number of characters (syllables) in each phrase, and some phrases follow a similar pattern. 月光光 (The Bright Moonlight or something) for example has a whole section with the pattern of "AAA is too BBB, so we CCC instead". They are catchy in this way, and that's why they are passed on.
Some of these are reharmonized and fitted into a major scale, but the original ones don't have any actual "functional" melody.
Length: Tends to be long, and without memorizing intentionally one would probably only remember the first few phrases.
You just wrote an essay on children's songs and its absolutely wonderful
Sprechgesangs? I assume that's 'speaking-songs'.
Isn't Frere Jacques' tune also the one that Chinese song about the running tigers missing certain body parts is sung to? I remember that being the one Chinese song I was taught to sing, dunno if it's that well known in Hong Kong.
Isn't it called "Two Tigers"?
For the song which sounds like Pokemon Route 1's theme, try looking up Polly Silly Doodle; it's an American song with a similar tune, & it might've been translated at some time.
In Norway, a lot of children's songs are in minor. Actually most 'traditional' children's songs are. Of the ones that are major, we've usually got them from the rest of Europe.
This isn't to mean that they are sad. Different minor scales are more prevalent in Norwegian folk music, and therefore don't have as strong of a 'sad' connotation.
Even the minor scale in like classical or pop music doesn’t always sound sad lol
Honestly the minor scale is better imo if you are trying to make music with a casual sound to it
Edit: just realized this is 5 years old. Whatever
Great video. I think one point you missed about the "lowest note" is that it's actually really important that the song doesn't go much lower than where it starts because kids don't have a good understanding of their range yet. They need to start where they feel comfortable and know that they can confidently make it through the whole thing
A similar analysis of Christmas/holiday songs might be fun. Every year people try to write a new standard and most of them -- while probably fine songs -- will never be sung a capella by a family while decorating a Christmas tree. Why? Hmm.
well for one, there is a big difference between a melody written for a pop song and a melody written for casual singing. even outside the topic of difficulty, Christmas carols have a fairly constant melody, whereas pop Christmas songs have a melody that comes in and out, with instrumental breaks in between that would be awkward for casual singing.
I think that's true of traditional carols, but not so much for the holiday songs of the first part of the 20th century. These were more like pop songs in structure and harmony, but easily singable by children and adults without accompaniment. The writers of "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" and "Walking in a Winter Wonderland" knew something that those of "Simply Having a Wonderful Christmastime" and "Please Come Home for Christmas" didn't (whatever the merits any of them had as pop songs).
It's Dm7b5 all the way down.
I would very much like to see a similar analysis of Christmas carols!
I was recently watching Sideways's video for Home Alone, which said that nostalgia is the bread and butter of that Christmas-y feel, so it's a very rare and lengthy process for Christmas songs to catch on.
As music is personal, I thought I'd share my daughters current preferences, which as she is soon three years old is quite fun.
She has a definite love for "children's songs"... a la "Johnny Johnny" and "Baby Shark" (fair enough, the latter us damn catchy)... But has a particular affection for SOAD's "Toxicity" and Devin Townsend's "Almost Again". She even likes a bit of Protest the Hero...
I admit I poisoned her mother's womb with classical music back in the day, but I'm still proud she'll rock out to the crap I like :D
Johnny Johnny is just Twinkle Twinkle Little Star/ the Alphabet Song, which he has on the list as Ba Ba Black Sheep.
true... but she wouldn't admit that ;)
I saw "Devin Townsend," so here's a thumb's up.
At first I was a bit surprised that a 3 year old would love Toxicity but thinking about it, that song does have a manic energy to it much like the manic energy of a three year old so it makes sense. Tell her to rock on.
Looking back, I realize how complex the song I wrote when I was four was for, you know, a song written by a four-year-old. It was in a minor scale and had a time signature of 3/4, which is... totally in line with the types of songs I liked when I was little.
It would be interesting to make the same kind of analysis on some other cultures (eastern, african, etc) to see the degree of different traits that are passed through enculturation.
Thought I’d share these, I was playing some intervals for my son who’s almost five months old and he lit up when I played fifths but was fairly indifferent to others. Of course ai’ve been singing/playing for him since he was born so that may just be culture.
A lot of "children's songs" involve movements or a game - the hand motions of "Itsy Bitsy Spider" or the selection process of "London Bridge", or the songs that are self-contained dances (like the Mexican Hat Dance or the Chicken Dance). It's hard to get kids to just sit still and sing!
That's a very good point, and one I wanted to work in but couldn't quite fit. Thanks for bringing it up!
You're completely welcome.Another point to consider is that a lot of the more physical children's songs (especially the Chicken Dance) become seriously hilarious when performed by drunk adults at a wedding or party :-)
Holy crap. I am literally in the process of recording a children's album. I will send it to you when it's done and I'd love your thoughts about it.
Music lover with a 2 month old here. Appreciated this video! I’ve been thinking about how I can make children’s music enjoyable for myself and my daughter. I got some insight from this video, thanks!
Do you think we're doing kids a disservice musically by only singing and playing these simplistic songs at a young age? Considering how kids can learn so much at that age wouldn't it be better to play them more complex music? I feel like part of why we sing these songs is not because kids like them, but because parents can sing them easier, or because we think kids will like the simple songs. Like you said, "simple sounds like children's songs." I will say that my almost 2 year old daughter likes when I sing the ABC's, but she also totally lost her shit and danced like she was possessed when I played her "Sir Duke." So idk.
Not that she was reacting to the relative complexity of the song, I'd say she was probably just excited about the upbeat tempo and groove.
Reminds me how I've recently seen my 4yo son listening to "Out" by Stroke - an old industrial song by a largely forgotten band I accidentally left on in the car - he tensed up during the buildup and then did a perfect "that's some good shit" face once the main riff kicked in. Kids can enjoy far more complicated and dissonant music than we give them credit for, though that does not necessarily mean they would like singing them.
Would you get a child to read Macbeth rather than the cat in a hat for that same reason?
Nicholas Casbarra No, because one, reading is a skill he still needs to learn; two, reading dramas out loud makes no sense, these are supposed to be acted out; three, some themes in Macbeth are not suitable for children; four, I imagine even for adults reading Macbeth is difficult due to the outdated language and five, English is not my mother tongue. But I do read some more complex stuff to him, e. g. full versions of brothers' Grimm folk tales (at least those not too scary) - one of them takes me usually a full week of bedside reading to complete.
@@nicholascasbarra239 That's like asking a person who has never read music to sight read music. Not really the same thing.
Very interesting analysis of a subject not often explored, and very proper to cite the cultural context in which it's rooted. I'm curious what people from other cultures would point to as examples of children's songs. On a side note, I felt bad for the octopus that had some tentacles amputated due to scale tone disuse and hope he had good health insurance (assuming he doesn't live somewhere with decent public medical care given the previously-cited cultural context).
I'm from Russia, and the main difference I spotted was that we don't have so many "children's folk songs", so to say. Most of the songs I remember from my childhood came from proffessionl poets and composers who specialized in making children's songs (mostly they're songs from Soviet kids' animation, but not necessarily), so naturally they're more complex in form, melody and sometimes even rhythm, but I don't remember that we experienced any difficulties singing them.
I think Russian children's folk songs are less common because of our rather brutal history. The closest I can think of are the Christmas songs, "в лесу родилась ёлочка" and "маленькой ёлочке холодно зимой". Probably because they were sung by urban lower-middle classes whom the Bolsheviks didn't brutalize this much. The state substituted for family in some aspects of bringing children up, and they were expected to sing songs like this th-cam.com/video/WdFls1gclZc/w-d-xo.html as they grew up.
Overall, I think in Russia there's less expectation from little children to sing, so the songs can afford being more complex.
A common Russian children's song, в "траве сидел кузнечик" (th-cam.com/video/DgqR_aoNipE/w-d-xo.html) uses harmonic minor. (By the way, event though this song was used in a cartoon, it's not strongly associated with it, so it might actually be a folk song. Edit: nevermind, it was written by Vladimir Shainsky like everything else.)
Also, the main theme from the oldest Russian children's TV show (th-cam.com/video/QffKbNB8SDw/w-d-xo.html) is gratuitously jazzy.
Another folk song I could think of was Каравай, but that seems to be pretty much it.
That's an interesting view on it, but then most of Russian children's poetry came in early Soviet period and was for the most part free of ideology, like Chukovsky, Marshak, Zakhoder etc. I mean those who remained in popular memory, because ideological children's poetry did exist but mostly of very low quality and didn't survive the test of time (except Mikhalkov and Mayakovsky, but even speaking of them, their non-ideological poems are remembered way better). So the idea of the importance of quality children's content did exist even in the most brutal time, but for some reason children's songwriting was practically non-existent in those days, with patriotic songs serving as the subsitution, as you pointed out. So it's hard to figure out why the golden age of children's poetry came in the first half of the century while the golden age of children's songs came in the post-Stalin era. Probably it still has to do with the emergence of animation.
I appreciate the comments and examples. Harmonic minor seems to get no love in Western children's music for some reason. Perhaps that's a conscious attempt to shelter them from the emotional strife that exists in real life. Realistically there should be more flat 3rds, lol.
In Indonesia, the majority of our children music is written by just three people, Saridjah Niung (Ibu Soed), A. T. Mahmud, and Soerjono (Pak Kasur). Indonesian was only used as the national language during the colonial era, and that's when Indonesian children songs were written. We don't have any old songs at all.
For the outliers it might be worth looking into which started life as popular music for general audiences and migrated into the category of children's songs rather than being written specifically for children. In the U.S. a lot of Vaudeville and Minstrel Show numbers are still a core part of children's music as well as several pieces to come out of the Folk movement.
They have to emphasize the root and fifth so much probably because they don’t use enough of the scale to be definitively in major otherwise. Especially because the 7th being left out really takes a huge hit to the tonality of Ionian.
I would be interested in hearing or seeing what your version of "The Song that Never Ends" is. I think it would be fun to analyze the differences.
The only thing I got wrong was that the words are "This is the song that doesn't end," not "never ends." That is, assuming the original is by Lambchop and her friends.
The biggest difference between my version and the Lambchop one (Besides the lyrics) is that in mine, the second line jumps up in the middle to avoid dipping below the 5th. Instead of walking down like 7-6-5-4-3, it goes 7-6-5-2-1. (The 5-2 move is ascending.)
That's interesting, as it creates a bit of rest with that 1 at the end, instead of the 3 which makes it feel like it'e going to keep going
In fact, I'd probably use that alteration to actually end the song!
I listened to the original Lamb Chop version and even though the first go 'round sings 7-6-5-4-3, when the other voices join I'm hearing the 2-1 harmonizing it above. So this change may not be all that recent!
That's very Happy Birthday To You with the 5-2-1. So in the video you mention that it makes the range smaller, it also makes the melody immediately more familiar.
@@ZipplyZane You can't end the song!! It's the song that never ends!!!
Another point to make is that many of these songs probably didn't start out as children's songs. They simply became so over time. London Bridge, for example, was probably a popular reference to the many times the bridge has had to be rebuilt. And I've Been Workin' on the Railroad, is, I believe, originally a song by the 19th century railroad workers (too obvious?).
I was looking through your spreadsheet, and I saw a few that weren't originally children's songs, but were "borrowed" by the children's-music genre. One example was "On Top Of Spaghetti," which is a parody of the folk song "On Top Of Old Smoky," which is about a lost love. Another example was "The Ants Go Marching," which was borrowed from the Civil War-era song "When Johnny Comes Marching Home."
Edit: You could make an argument for "The Purple People Eater" to be included in this list, and definitely "I've Been Workin' On the Railroad," which Wikipedia claims actually includes two different songs: The "Dinah" part at the end may actually be taken from a folk song that predated the Railroad part. That would explain why those songs may be exceptions in one way or another; I'm curious how your data changes when you pull those out.
Step 1: Believe in it and sing it all day long
"I've Been Working On The Railroad" may be an outlier in your analysis simply because it might not have been created as a song for children. No one's too sure about the origins, but I wouldn't be surprised if this folk song originated from railroad workers passing the time away.
Likel;y is, probably was also popular in the general public before it got handed down to kids through long term enculturation (for another example see How Dry I Am or Clementine)
I looked it up on Wikipedia and it actually seems to have been a blackface minstrel number. 😐
I do like that observation about simple sounding like children's songs - the things we were exposed to as children define what we think of as simple and childish. At first glance that might sound trivial, but it is an extremely important observation!
In Denmark we have numerous relatively modern children's songs. Often from pop music aimed at small children or from TV shows. They do target slightly older children, like above 5 than the really simple ones you were talking about here.
Quite honestly, alot of the childrens shows i watched as a kid [i'm kinda young] had alot of jazz chords, i never went for this pentatonic stuff, i'm thankful the shows i watched got me into jazz chords
I'd love to see a more in-depth take on this! I wanna know about specific songs and what specific things they each do. As teacher I'd like to subvert these things and show young learners that music comes from everywhere and is different from what may be familiar, but that that is an okay and even good thing. Regardless, this is a really great video and has given me a lot to think about as both a musician and educator!
You know, I was thinking about this earlier as well. I was thinking about how Rusty Cage made The Knife Game Song and how he said his intention was to make it sound like a traditional song, and he absolutely nailed that with the melody and chords; I could've sworn he just put his own lyrics over a traditional song I didn't know the name of.
I also thought the same thing about the Baby Shark song that's been popular lately. Wikipedia says that the song came from the 1900s, but there's no citation, and I can't find any sources that prove that.
LimeGreenTeknii Every simple, straightforward melody under two bars or so has already been done. We may not recognize them due to more or less ornamentation and pickup notes or passing tones, but they've all been done.
I sang Baby Shark at camp in the mid-1990's, so it's at least that old...
The version I know isn't quite like the dancy one I heard recently, though - it's more like this: th-cam.com/video/GR2o6k8aPlI/w-d-xo.html
I've Been Working on the Railroad is a great example. My babysitter when I was a kid was the chainsmoking Republican committeewoman for my grandmother's neighborhood (my grandmother was the Democratic committeewoman, and was very political, but was friends with the Republican one, so that gives a bit of strange insight into how American politics has changed in the past generation). But one song I remember she really liked singing to her grandchildren (who she also babysat alongside us) was that song. Your insight into how it's kind of odd as children's songs go reminded me of how I thought it was odd back then too. It just juts into that part about "Someone's in the kitchen with Dina. . ." out of nowhere, and I remember feeling like as a child it was a non sequitur to the rest of the song both musically and in terms of plot/story. I guess if I sat down and thought about it now in a more sophisticated way I'd probably have to admit that it's likely got some kind of progression/key center relationship tying it all together (I haven't thought through the intervals yet, so I don't know) but definitely that Dina lady comes out of nowhere.
Dude. One of the coolest videos you've ever done and one of my favourites on youtube, this was awesome! Keep up the good work! Also I nearly died when you drew the hookshot 😍
This video was really good. I think it would be interesting to get a similar list of English and Irish children's songs (where there's some overlap) and compare and contrast to see if anything musically is stressed more there than it is here.
Ants go marching by is a very sad war song, that somehow made it to become a children´s song. You find it, for example, as the whistle in the beggining of "Civil War" by Guns and Roses.
Congrats on 200K subscribers!
You commented that "I've been working on the railroad" has a longer structure...perhaps because it didn't start out as a children's song? It started out as a work song. I'll bet a lot of work songs also share some similar characteristics. I have an old book of work songs published around 1912 that lists it. According to Wikipedia, it was first published in 1894. I suppose it could have been around in popular culture before it was published.
So, uh, the next great children's song should be written by somebody who plays the bass?
From Britain I think I would add
London's Burning
London Bridge is Falling Down
The Grand Old Duke of York
Oranges and Lemons
Head, Shoulders knees and toes
Hot Cross Buns
Rounds are actually a great way of teaching children how to sing parts. There are SO many people who cannot sing harmony. They always sing the melody even if they're trying to sing harmony. Being able to hold a part in a round can help a child practice singing things that aren't what everyone else is singing.
Love all your work!
I was wondering whether you'd consider doing a harmonic analysis video on 'Reckless' by Australian Crawl. This is quite a well known song in Australia, but I don't think it is in the rest of the world. Cheers!
Gosh! The songs I heard when I was a small child, especially in primary School. The Austrian yodling song on a mountain top high and he met with all of these hazards interupting his cry... which my music teacher used to really belt out the beginning of the chorus the, HOLEA... which made me immediately, block my ears and caused me to have serious, nightmares with feelings of impending death by explosion when I woke up, hence why the number 3, well, I will always, have a love hate relationship with it. A lot of other children's songs I had on cassette tapes, but sadly, never found out the names of these cassette tapes save one, Wally Whyton's nursery rhymes, which is safely stored away in a box of cassette based memories under my bed, nearly 40 years after I became addicted to it. I wish I could find the A to Z of audio books theme songs on a double cassette tape, starting with a very cool jazzy version of ABC, then working through the other 25 songs there. I remember, A, b, C, d, f, h, j, k, m, n, o, p, s, t, v, x, y and z on this cassette were all my favourites.
"The ants go marching one by one" I assume is allowed to be in minor because it is "When Johnny come marching home" with different lyrics. The march was probably so well known that it got away with uncommon features. It also is a bit creepy in sound.
Heh, the major scale observation made me laugh. -I guess Central and North European children's songs ingrain minor scales more than do American ones, especially lullabies.
I think in some oddly but fundamental way this is one of your best and most important videos you've made to date.
Here in Brazil we have a children's song in minor with a 10th interval and presenting an descending arpeggio right at the start. It's like a virtuoso-goth nursery rhyme
Love your videos. This one especially, since I’ve spent several years making creepy, more complex solo piano versions of nursery rhymes. 🌝🕷🕸
Awesome, a fellow New Englander (NH)! Fantastic video, actually learned a lot more than I thought I would from this, keep it up!
Not only does "I've Been Working on the Railroad" differ in those ways from other children's music, but it also feels different in its general musical vocabulary and source material too--less Western concert and folk music and more like some sort of blues form, right down to how multiple children might sing it--as a call and response, trading lines, rather than a round.
Here’s another thought. You learn and/or reinforce these songs in music class. For a very long time, pedagogy has been to start with simple, short, major-key songs because the musical concepts we are teaching lend themselves to such music. You likely also learned some songs that you’ll never remember.
The easiest way for kids to understand the minor key is to first understand major. So naturally, as you get older you start learning minor key songs. But by then you’re probably not singing songs from school much for fun in the street.
Even if you did not have music in elementary school, kids you hung out with probably did, or their older siblings, etc.
So it’s just the order teachers teach, maybe?
Nice video :-) One thing you forgot is that instrumentation is important. Melodies on the glockenspiel seem childlike, while that same melody in a horn ensemble probably gives it a way different feel.
From my past studies of folk music in the UK, Australia and the US, I would suggest:
1. Older melodies are more likely to be pentatonic, and
2. Older melodies that include the 4th are most likely to include it in a 5-4-3 or 5-4-3-2-1, where the 4th is a passing note rather than a harmonic note. These songs, according to ethnomusicologists such as Kodály and his disciples, are the most natural to sing, as young children from these cultures don't typically sing semitones in tune.
i was really expecting you to mention this, and actually this is something I didn't notice till much later in my life, but the melody for the ABC's song and twinkle twinkle little star and Ba ba black sheep are the same..
You're a TOWNIE!!! Your channel makes sense now!!
Great study. The cool thing about youtube is that things like that stays for everyone who is interested.
I wonder how this analysis holds up with the children's songs we have here in Norway. I mean, some are just translations of some of the ones you have on your list, but we do also have our own. Then of course there is the whole separate sub genre of children's christmas music, which Im guessing must produce some sort of self-unique patterns of its own.
Korn used nursery rhymes in Shoots and Ladders and Red Hot Chili Peppers references Twinkle Twinkle Little Star in Apache Rose Peacock, which Californication had a similar line to.
Any thoughts on the durability of these songs and rhymes? There is a great book, "One Potato, Two Potato" by Mary and Herbert Knapp that takes a dive into it.
huh, Ants Go Marching was my favorite of those as a kid, probably because of the minor key. i just thought it sounded super cool and unique to the other stuff. Even now I tend to like minor over major.
Whenever he plays the Root to the Fifth I think "Some-BODY Once... "
John Feierabend’s First Steps in Music has a a great selection of children’s songs worth checking out.
7:50 - And drinking songs: Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall...
It might be interesting to see some analysis of songs in children's television and film, and how tightly they knit to these trends - From my childhood things like Maid Marion and Her Merry Men and Spider, from stuff after and before that I distinctly know had musical numbers in them T-Bag and Horrible Histories, but boy howdy am I not the person to do such analysis.
The first thing I thought about wasn't even mentioned. Maybe because it's present not only in children's music, but in fairy all music. I think about a repetition. Especially repeting patterns with some changes, for example the same rhythmical pattern, but slightly different melody, like in the Wheels on the Bus for example (bar 2-4)
U should collab with 8-bit theory!!!
This explains why Every time I play a major progression, to my barely trained ear I often hear Childrens song...a lot. Most Row your boat and Twinkle little star.
The use of the major scale and omitting the seventh reminds me of medieval hexachord music.
If I remember right "I've been working on the Railroad" wasn't originally a children's song; that might explain it's relative complexity.
Same goes for "Ants Go Marching" & "On Top of Spaghetti;" they're folk songs with new kid-friendly lyrics.
While "Soft Kitty, Warm Kitty" apparently was written in 1937, it's probably only entered the mainstream very, very recently.
tymime I've just found out about this song's english version and as I suspected, it has some relationship with a very popular polish children's song 'Wlazł kotek na płotek' which is even simpler than the english one. According to Wikipedia the English version was inspired by the polish one.
No Johny johny?? WHACK!
As far as I can tell it's just a simplified version of the Baa Baa Black Sheep melody.
12tone There’s more than one tune floating around, though. The first version I heard (which isn’t the first known version of the song) sounds VERY different.
Idk what that is
C.J. Zimmerman You mean the one with the banjo-organ duet in the background and Johnny's increasingly odd eating habits leading to his demise?
You MacLark No, the one parodied in “Thanos Thanos Yes Papa.”
The video itself looks so simple as children's music but I can tell that there is a huge backstage work on it. I think that you worked too hard and It deserves more thumbs up... Thank you.
FFS. This explains the popularity of Baby Shark and Finger Family songs (the music that babies of 2015 and onward will grow up listening to).
Great Video
Ohhh and there goes baby shark with the static melodies, starting on the fifth, but including the seventh actually ending on it before starting the next measure on the fifth! Which usually doesn’t happen.
Awesome video. How about analysing something by muse next? Please?
While watching this video I couldn't help but think of Stravinsky, and how he composed 12-tone "children's songs" in an effort to avoid giving children musical biases.
Not only is that idea impossible (there's always going to be some amount of bias -- Stravinsky still used standard rhythms and 12TET tuning), I think this video also hints at why that goal isn't really worthwhile either.
One might conclude that humans have some intrinsic bias for a dramatic cycle of tension and release. "Academic" forms like tone rows and overly strange rhythms don't conform to the "more-or-less predictable with occasional surprises and twists" form that humans find appealing. Movies that have no discernible plot are also generally unpopular.
Great work!
Now I'd love to see the same analysis on totally different cultures' children songs, and see how it compares. Are there universals?
When I was a kid I liked most of the records my older brother was buying. Including many Beatles songs from the white album. Tell me Dear Prudence, isn't a children's song.
I think we underestimate what kids would like.
How about rhythm? I believe with harmonies being simplified in commercial music but rhythm becoming more complicated and more expressive, children's songs could be written today with greater rhythmic variety. I'd also expect that a fair amount feature arpeggios.
Some could incorporate fun features that you don't always find, sich as repeating the song up by a whole tone each time, or adding glissandos.
I couldn't fit it in, but I did check the rhythms, and they're mostly fairly simple: Very few of the songs contained any noteworthy syncopation. However, triplets and compound meter weren't uncommon features.
What about classical children's music? Peter and the Wolf, Carnival of the Animals, Hansel and Gretel... These are parts of the western canon specifically designed to teach children. I grew up with them, including field trips to the local symphony to hear the first two in special school district matinees.
I only know 10 songs from your list.
Many of our traditional kids songs are abandoned and never passed down at all.
Most of the kids songs in my country made in 80's - 90's.
How can there's no new kids songs written in america when youre a kid?
Merci beaucoup for this. And thanks to you comments section. You really don't have a lot of trolls, which makes for a pleasant and educational experience.
The only "children's song" I would hesitatingly add would be "The Worms Crawl In, The Worms Crawl Oul", though I think there is another title. I'm pretty sure it's minor, and it could be in a dark mode.
I never went to Band Camp, and joked until I was 65 that I was born with two left ears. But I started piano at 65, like my Mom. She played for another 20+ years, so I'll invite you to my first concert...in 2043.
I might do a collection of Children's Songs.
This was surprisingly fascinating
Just goes to prove: the simpler something looks or sounds, the more complicated it probably is
Smart people watching this:
wow, that’s cool! I learned so many new things!
Me:
Ayyyooo I also grew up near Boston!😂
I learned to count to 12 with this song and it's stayed with me all my life. I still find it triggered by things and catch myself singing it in my 40's lol! No need to go through to number 12 unless anyone wants the cartoon or the slight song differences between the numbers.
The sung featured number lyrics are pretty interesting too however. The entire composition as music is pretty amazing. I didn't appreciate it as a kid but I do now.
th-cam.com/video/VOaZbaPzdsk/w-d-xo.html
I'm too new to theory and music to analyze the song, but it's one anyone growing up in the USA on sesame street in my generation knows.
I've been working on the railroad used to be a song for adults. That's probably why it's so different.
Isn't "One Eyed One Horned Flying Purple People Eater" also a fairly long song at around 2 minutes in length?
It is, but the form is just a 16-bar loop.
It can't go on for too long. Sooner or later he's going to starve to death. There just aren't that many purple people around to eat.
Wasn't Ants Go Marching taken from a military tune? Maybe that's why it's one of the few that's in minor scale, being adapted from a different purpose. And that might explain I've Been Workin' On The Railroad too, its name kind of suggests it began as a folk song that was sung while, y'know, working on a railroad, so it's unusual because it was repurposed, and not written as a children's song. Though I guess that's likely the case with a lot of these children's songs, which probably start out as just folk tunes? So I guess it's less a question of how people write songs for kids than what qualities of a song will make it lend itself to be sung to kids.
Also, isn't Baa Baa Black Sheep just Twinkle Twinkle Little Star with more static motion added? Though you could put the static motion on the second verse but not the first, then it's the ABCs instead.
Thanks. That was a great analysis. Cheers.
I think this whole video brings up a larger discussion as to whether songs taught to children should be revised considering the vast majority of music created at this time strays from western European classical
My understanding about I've Been Working on the Railroad is that it is a medly of three earlier 19th century popular songs, so it's no wonder it's both long and weird.
It is??? What songs???
In my church, the hymns are (relatively) simple, and the children’s music is complex. I think the main reason is because learning music is a big part of their Sunday school lessons. Try searching “I’m trying to be like Jesus”, or “primary music LDS”.
I didn’t know other people knew the song that never ends!!!
2:00 how long did you all go before having to sing that C to complete the NBC theme? I made it about nine seconds.
A couple of other variables that might be relevant to assessing what goes into kids songs might be the skill level of the composers(were they professional vs folk musicians) and also The perceived skill level of musician consumers 100+ years ago when these songs were created. I am assuming that the people performing music for children likely were non-professionals and would have a limited skills repertoire. music would likely be formatted to be within their wheelhouse.
its a LONG SHOT. I GET THAT REFERENCE
Ella Jenkins is a folk singer of Children's songs, some traditional and some original. In "Sifting in the Sand," she foregoes melody in place of having children quietly chanting "Sifting in the Sand (2X)". She repeats "I am in the kitchen with a potato in my hand," with more dread in her prosody and tone with each repeat. It's like she's about to get caught trespassing by a schoolboy. It's the anti-"Camp Town Races."
Love children songs
Hole in the bucket
Old lady who swallowed a fly
When the saints go marching
These are probably for older kids.
i have never liked major chord songs, so I always mixed in a lot of minor key songs for sleepy time (i wonder if that would make a good analysis?). All the Pretty Horses, and Momma's Gonna Buy You A ... (don't remember the name). I also tended to sing a few non-major Christmas songs, as he was a baby and wouldn't know, like the Coventry Carol, Gabriel's Message (really, motherly songs), and then White Christmas, which I've always liked.