This is a brilliant technique. I'd also add that not only you're saving time and effort while preserving the original crowing of the fret wire, but you're also preserving as much height/meat as possible, which guarantee optimal playability by minimizing finger friction on the fingerboard. This is SO important, especially when playing leads. We want ''low action'', NOT low profile frets! Thanks for sharing your technique Mark! ♥
So, you level frets with a fret kisser? Oops. **Spoiler alert** He levels frets with abrasive. Same as anyone else. He's doing nothing special in the slightest. And if the negative comments are irksome - don't drag people here with the 'I don't level frets tagline' and then babble on about Star Trek and proceed to level frets with sanding. People feel cheated and won't ever come back. There's meant to be a level of trust between viewer and creator. I came here excited to see a new guy working new methods and had my time wasted, left with a bad taste and won't be back. I was a definite potential new subscriber and repeat viewer. That being said, your final board was very nice and I like the inlay work. I just won't return is all and that will be typical of a lot of viewers I imagine.
Haha! Nice! Can't beat them hog knuckles. But, I slightly edited, deleted and reposted a comment made on the same viewing due to TH-cam not letting me edit and post it, for some reason. Also, there was some absolute weapon babbling like a lunatic in the replies, so it was a win/win. And you leave little Billy out of this! Also, I clearly meant I won't be back as a channel viewer and subscriber. It's this type of logic that my son exhibited that made me abandon young Billy in the first place. :) @@BryanClark-gk6ie
I've been playing since 1988.. it's only been the last few years that I've actively been doing my own set-ups.. thanks for imparting your knowledge and skill! Loved the relaxing music too!
The background music and low voiceover made me feel like I was working on guitars and on a mission to some moon orbiting Jupiter. I will buy the Fret Kisser because of this video. Thanks bud. Nice teaching and coaching.
Hey.like your video . I am Amsata . I am the inventer of ftrekisser .i use it also like this. I use stainless frets and dont think also that You need to level all the frets,but i wanted i tool that wil level just the high spot, so made this tool and work with stewmac to make it.it started in 2013 and 2018 it was ready. Nice frets work
THANK YOU! I made a video about 3 years ago, called "How NOT to be a fret leveling moron (and actually do it the right way)", in which I talk EXACTLY about this thing which pisses me off whenever I see all these big TH-camrs showing their extremely poor understanding of mechanics and physics, despite being super famous. Spot levelling is THE only way to level a fretboard! The only thing I do differently than you is 1) I check the fret along its entire length, not just in 3-4 spots, as you risk missing out small local bumps despite thinking they can't be THAT localized, but trust me, they can, 2) I don't have a Fret Kisser, but I'm using a regular diamond file, works perfectly and 3) no fall-off past the 12th fret since it's not needed, as I spoke about in my video. Again, I applaud you for the video!!! ♥
@ShawnHawkins33 I know that was meant to be both funny and on point, but it was really one of the worst analogies 😁 there are so many differences, both conceptual and practical, I'd have to write for hours on end... but really, it's not the same at all 🎸
Totally agree with your method! I did my first fretboard by sanding the whole fretboard and thought there had to be a better way. My next one I came up with the same process as you. It’s easier, quicker, and 90% of the frets remain untouched and full height.
Buffing wheel on the dremel is much easier and more consistent than the cone shape. Flitz is the only compound I use. It’s my last step after fine sandpapers. The wheel conforms to the fret shape and polishes the whole thing. One pass each direction and you’ve got a mirror finish.
I always start for leveling in the middle of the neck and then work towards either end that way I'm sure that the second fret isn't off when you do it starting at the second fret you're never really sure it's like laying a tile floor you want to make sure that everything's level at the highest point in the room
If your fret rocker actually rocks when placed over three frets, is the middle fret too high, or is one of the outer frets too low? Both situations will produce the same 'rocking' condition. If you then reduce the height of the middle fret, and the problem was actually with one of the outer frets being too low, then you could be introducing a slight 'wave' of height variation as you move along the fretboard: not good when you are fretting the strings in different positions! Yes, I know that string tension will tend to pull a slight amount of relief into the neck, but for accurate, consistent fret heights, they must all have their tops originally in a straight line. After making sure that the fretboard is as straight as possible using the truss rod and a slotted straight edge, and marking ALL of the fret tops in the accepted way, a very light pass with a levelling beam which has 400 grit sandpaper will quickly show the condition of all of the frets: if only a few frets (or parts of frets) have their tops cleaned by the sandpaper, then these are obviously the high ones, which can quickly be reduced to the correct height. If only a few frets are left untouched, then these are the lowest ones: all of the other frets then need to be reduced in height. Either way, when you are finished with the levelling beam, you can then be sure that all of the fret tops are in line, without the risk of introducing the 'wave' height problem which seems to be a real risk when using your method.
I'm with you on this. If you think the frets are level and don't want to over-sand anything, start with1000 with all the frets marker'ed. If the frets are right, you'll unmark them all at the same time, equally. Confirmation that you're good and at worst, you just polished your frets a little. If it isn't level, well, then you know what to do.
Agreed, good points. Considering how many frets needed leveling, he should have just used a beam to begin with. And then did spot leveling if needed afterward.
Agreed. Ironically, thinking you can level a fretboard in groups of 3 up and down the board - if done systematically and repeatedly (because you are changing adjacent readings each time you lower a fret) can take the same amount of time as judiciously using a long beam in the first place. Of course that will never happen because in the end you can simply raise the string height to avoid all the pockets of varying fret height.
An additional factor that comes to mind regarding this process is that once a high fret has been lowered, it will then affect how adjacent frets may then rocker test with its neighbors. Adjacent frets will likely test differently after an adjustment than before. I wonder if it might be best to start at the bridge end of the neck and work towards the nut. When a high fret is encountered, adjust it down to its proper height before moving onward, testing and adjusting as you go, one fret at a time until you get to the nut. I've heard stories of people spot-leveling frets starting at the nut end of the neck and ending up with a nightmare of "chasing" high frets all the way down the fretboard, with each subsequent fret adjustment causing the next fret to then test high. By starting at the bridge end of the neck, I would think that such a problem would be eliminated. One may say that it shouldn't make any difference, but think of it this way as a player. Which high frets give us trouble when playing? The answer is the high frets that are towards the bridge from the location where we are attempting to fret. Take care of those, then see what else may be problematic working back towards the nut. The fact that the "fret kisser" can even be used with the guitar under string tension, not only so the results of an adjustment can be immediately tested, but also that the guitar is in its true "living conditions" while you work and test, is a big plus. It may be easier for an experienced guitar tech to simply do a traditional leveling of the entire board, but for a guy like me who likes to work on my own guitars, but shies away from extensive fret work, I'm a fan of this spot-leveling method. I've yet to actually attempt to do it, but I'm going to buy one of these Stewmac fret kissers and give it a try.
I appreciate your detailed and exacting approach to guitar building. I’m a lot like that, however, I doubt if anyone could afford one of your guitars simple because of the time you’ve invested. I have tremendous respect for you, especially the Star Trek example. Big fan! I think you should pursue the “one mold press idea for pressing fret wire in a level way. This can and should be done.
Glad you mentioned the Plek. I really enjoy seeing hand crafting. Therefore I have a great appreciation for people who have the knowledge and hand skills to carry out this work with minimal of high technology machining. Speaking as a metal and composite machinist, with 23 years of practical experience, preserving these older skills is very important. If you have a machine that does it all for you then you become reliant on that and the ability to problem solve outside of the machines capability is lost.
Basically spot leveling. I did this on my current build. Fret rocker and red Sharpie for the high spots. You have to take special care that leveling a fret doesn't make an adjacent fret high by comparison.
You got me. And then you relaxed me. I forgot about how I'd stumbled blindly into this warm light, and just chilled right out. Nothing at all to do with leveling my frets. So thankyou!
That fret rocker rocking in that position could also indicate the 2nd fret being lower. If the 2nd fret was too low, the fret rocker wouldn't detect that in the first checking position. If the 3rd and 4th frets were correct, the fret rocker would still rock the same way as in the video.
Just curious if one fret is higher than the others and you mark it, then precede down the neck using the fret rocker, won't the high fret cause an inaccurate read of the next fret?
Sir: the concept is called “tolerance stack.” In a manufacturing environment, the effect of several small deviations from the desired dimensions in a part compounding until the part exhibits an undesirable characteristic. The choice of using a precise, and very expensive, process to produce perfect parts every time, or use a less expensive process and correct the parts later to bring them into spec is a difficult one, particularly when a manufacturing innovation can come out next week that can change the variables in play. Excellent video!
Theoretically, all PLEK machine does is scanning the fretboard with a z-level indicator and then chipping away the excess metal. It's tolerance is 25 microns. Cheap CNC machine has tolerance of 50 microns, so basically if one can rewrite its z-axis algorithm to scan over the fret board it will do the exact same thing, you just need the one that can be programmed.
You approach fretwork like a mechanical engineer, very methodical and meticulous and more than a little bit anally retentive about it, but the results validate your process. I've been building guitars and doing fretjobs since 1985 and I get results as good as yours or anybody's, but I'm a bit more "production oriented" about my process, meaning, I crank it out in a couple of hours. I've learned shortcuts that work for me. I'm certainly not afraid of running a levelling block over the whole fretjob, this is actually a necessary part of the process if you want ultimately low action. I can routinely deliver fretwork that's better than the average results from a Plek job. Plek is not magic, it just automates the general process. It's no better than the skills of the guy setting up the machine. It is NOT the magic bullet some people make it out to be.
interesting technique, i will give it a try since one of the selling points of Jescar SS wire is to potentially have a very long lived initial setup and possibly never needing a refret. It doesn't make sense to erode your wire material thickness from day 1. Do you check level with a beam as the last step? From an engineering standpoint, it would seem if you use only a rocker over a few frets that you could have a compounding error once you get 12 os so frets away?
I actually like your tip about adding the marker information to the tape, I generally use the butt end depth gauge of a micrometer towards the end of the crowning process along with the fret rocker to keep everything super consistent. As I can see how your method here is basically spot leveling, and would be just OK on new frets. An already played guitar that would possibly have string wear divets in the fret's up towards the cowboy chords generally, you'd want to take all the frets down to a certain level and need to recrown everything to get rid of those and keep everything level.... I won't even go into the price of the fret kisser, considering the same can be done with 2 tools you probably already own if doing any amount of fret leveling or fret maintenance.....
excellent video all wood made for guitars has a mind of its own to stabilize fret arc height gives the player there tone/sound total enjoyed your passion and expertise thankyou for your time
Necessity is the mother of invention. Im sure someone will find a remedy someday. Kudos to this guy for trying. BTW you should start your own ASMR channel 😊
Excellent video! It was interesting for me to see that you and I ended up developing virtually the identical approach. Great minds think alike! 😆 Immediately leveling all the frets probably came out of luthiers’ desire to get things done very quickly. If you don’t care about some height loss, you don’t even need to check anything; just blast everything level, crown, and Bob’s your uncle. When I learned 45 years ago, that was somewhat the norm. It took me a long time before I decided to start by spot leveling first, and working to avoid touching any frets I didn’t have to. In my view your approach should be the expected standard in guitar repair, and it’s wonderful that you made this available for people starting out. There are so many “instructional” videos by nubes, and people with lower standards. So I guess you have high standards as a luthier, AND as a TH-cam contributor! Outstanding work.
I'm sure the die/draw plate was not designed to push through a perfectly shaped fret. Also rolling the fret radius will change the shape. Therefore it's always a good idea to take a bit of the top (uniform). So you have a flat spot on the top of all the frets. That is why you keep a thin black line on the top of the fret when shaping it.
So what would you do if you needed to grind down neighboring frets? Wouldn't that change the whole, overall reading all the way down after the neighboring frets?
In a used guitar scenario I do everything I can to only file the top material I need to after doing my best to tap down high spots. Once I have quadruple-checked after filing my way up the fret board and I am satisfied I will do my crowning, fret end dressing, sanding and polishing the frets. So far I have had good luck and not experienced low spots but I did buy radius sanding blocks rather than my between string flat level sander just in case. I am very new at this and still trying to acquire decent tools ( little by little) so if you have any suggestions feel free to let me know! Thank you for this awesome video!
I halfway agree with you. 100% you should check your frets with a rocker before leveling to see if it is even necessary. If you have properly cut fret slots and didn't use glue, you can often tap the high fret and get it level with a smooth brass or dead blow hammer. If you can't get uniform level with the hammer, if there are 5+ high frets, i'd rather do a whole level and crown and know it's right.
this answered a question. It's the fret tolerances during extrusion that make perfectly seated frets imperfect all across the board. You can have a perfect board, perfect slots, and imperfect fretwire. I too asked, why are we leveling frets? Is most fretwire imperfect? Yes. Yes it is.
I do that in the same way!!! I even mark the tape as you do LOL. I didn´t know about the fret kisser though, that will make my life way easier. Thanks for the video!!!
I essentially do this same thing, but I don't tape the board (make the notes with a pad and pencil) and then do the bulk of the levelling with a fret hammer. You still generally need a hit with a levelling with a beam of various sizes though. That's the step I came here to try and eradicate. I've got to get the Fret Kisser too - it's super expensive here in the UK, but the amount of time it can save you is 100% worth it.
I like the approach and the rationale to it, now could it be better to do this under string tension, that changes significantly the geometry of the neck, especially around the fall away zone (e.g. typical issues around the 12 fret?) Then using something like a stewmac Fretbar understring Leveler partially taped in the center with abrasive and ordinary tape on the side ? kind of home made fret rocker
So you measured off a fret that needs leveling ? Why do you glue them in? I’m not aware of any manufacturer doing it. Do you clean matching oil off the fret tang before you Install to keep them from creeping out ? Do you level the board on a refret first ?
Absolutely fantastic.. As a garage guitar builder (cigar box guitars) I haven't decided if the price of the fret kisser is within reach for what I do, but this really starts a chain of ideas! Thanks!!!
OK. I HAVE found a much better way to do this. When the frets have been installed I simply tap down the high fret areas with a fret mallet. That takes a lot of this work away AND the frets are well seated so contraction does not make them lift out as easily.
If you try that with stainless steel frets they will eventually go back to their "Memory" state, and it's why bending them accurately before press fitting them in. Never use a hammer/mallet to put in SS frets, ore you may throw them out of whack and they will want to stay that way. Stainless must be over bent to where when relaxed the radius is right. Nickel silver, especially the older soft varieties are forgiving, but even the somewhat tougher modern versions are less so.
I was lucky to be taught as an apprentice to Dick Robinson. That way that you are doing it is the old Luthiers Guild certified way of fret leveling. You are right a leveling beam is offensive to a Master Luthier. I actually had to make my own fret rocker/leveler out of Arkansas stone, I don't buy StewMac overpriced junk. Off the shelf tools just are not good enough. Your instincts are good, your way has grater potential to be perfect. You see the truth is even a calibrated flat can't make perfect level anything, there is a meniscus effect in the leading edge and trailing edge when sanding that will take off more material at the edge than the center of the flat. AND!!! If you can't set up a neck better than a PLEK machine you are NOT a Master Luthier!
...a little constructive criticism as I'm watching your process... third fret needs height adj., yet you referenced all the consecutive fret heights to the third, which you'll change.
Fantastic technique. I have done similar, fret rock and spot level, but your method is next level. Great work. One tool I think would fit your method is the Hosco UFO, check it out if you aren’t familiar with it. How do you like the wide fret press from the UK? When (or if) you do mono-scale guitars do you use it to an arbor press?
Watching your videos, you and I have come to several of the same conclusions independently that have shaped our methods. I find this quite interesting. I also avoid using a leveling beam as much as possible, by using almost this same method. I press frets, then check for level. If possible, I’ll clamp them down to level, and glue them. Most of the time this works, and I can get away with 0 leveling, if I’ve done all previous steps properly (dead flat neck, consistent pressure when pressing, etc) if I ever have to spot level, I do so the same way as you. Fall away is the only time I typically use a leveling beam on a board. Is it elegant? Meh.. but I get to keep those original crowns! Great channel man! Love the content, and the intelligent approach to luthiery.
Did 3 different electrics, two regular stainless, one jumbo stainless, did only marking on the masking tape with a similar fret rocker. Lots of iterations, great results. The most demanding is working the fret ends.
Nice video again. And what a subject... Frets are driving me crazy, I still have two of my project that need a fret leveling and I hate doing that! (that is probably why my current one is a fretless 😅). I will try to find that stewmac rocker to give it a try like you do 😉, maybe that way I will stop procrastinate on those fret jobs... Cheers from France! 🇫🇷
I use 6 inch precision flat ground stone, sold through metalwork outlets (normally used to dress milling machines etc). Similar technique, felt pen on all the frets, careful use of the stone to take down high frets.
A metal radiused "block" the length of the fretboard. Place frets in slots and clamp block down on them. CA into the ends. No leveling needed afterwards.
@@T0tenkampf Actually the opposite would be true. If the metal radiused block is stiff and clamped evenly, not allowed to bend, the frets will only be able to follow the block. It actually would allow the frets to have some variance and the fret board to not be flat.
Did not watch the whole video so not sure it was mentioned.....What happens once the neck is put on and string tension is introduced ? Doing a set up under the chosen string tension corrects any problems that may have been introduced when attaching the neck. So doing all this with the neck off makes no sense to me....may get you close (or not) But a final level is still needed on the bench under tension or simulated tension to the specific guitar IMO....
I love the box marked "time travel stuff", nice little Rick and Morty Easter egg for us there lol Of course though if we ever experienced "true level" we would need to destroy the guitar and wipe the memory from our brains or the world would be forever uninhabitable for us.... So don't get too crazy, let it be a little off... lol
C'mon Mark, post more often than regulary! I really like u'r guitar builds videos. U're doin' great job and I kinda like u'r ASMR-ish sound. I'm an engineer and guitarist too. Greetings from Romania!
@@MarkGutierrez Keep the posting quality up over quantity, your attention to detail is what keeps me coming back. From the star trek references & "time travel" labeled boxes to you composing the music it all adds up to really great content. Thoughtful content is timeless. Im working on plans for a headless 7 string currently and all your videos make me rethink my process and plans. videos that inspire hit a bit different than thrown together youtube nonsense.
2 potential solutions theoretically. If the fret tolerance was the only issue. Which it most likely is a big part of it but not the only part, making a jig with a die or some other mechanical form of correction that you could pull the wire threw to eliminate the inconsistency in the wire before installation would be one method. This would probably be the least likely seeing as how it’s such a tight tolerance and SS doesn’t manipulate in that way without heat or abrasives. The second would be a tool that could be run over the fret to produce a perfect height from the fret board to the crown however the radius of the fret board would make this extremely difficult by hand. I believe tools like this exist but more for getting the crown than a perfect height. Unfortunately the fact that wood tends to adjust to all sorts of environmental factors it’s really more complicated than that. I remember watching a video on PRS and how the make up to 30 adjustments to the neck day over day bc each adjustment will cause a reaction from the wood and hence requiring another adjustment. Maybe a better solution would be something other than frets? Not necessarily fret less but an alternative? Out of the box solution..? Like a aluminum neck with the frets machined out of it, or possibly a processes of manufacturing that allows fret wire to be installed in a different fashion.
That's what I said too. No matter how good your CNC machine is in his example we're talking about wood. It's inherently unstable and constantly changes. You would have to use non natural materials to achieve better stability... However this would pose a problem for acoustic instruments since a lot of the sound characteristics come from the wood.
I see you got lucky with red frets in the middle of black ones. What happens if you have 2 or more red frets next to each other? How do you use the fret kisser when there are 2 uneven frets on either side? How do you choose which one is good to level?
Have you seen a tool called the " fret bone " ? The 2 angle tool is incredible for reshaping the entire fret after leveling so it's perfectly symmetrical after leveling process . Not to mention very easy to use and fast !
@@MarkGutierrezThe LittleBone fret file is a patented invention from 2011 from the same inventor of the Reference fret leveling concept that you are using in this video. Please search for the Buzz Killer fret tool.
you hooked me with the star trek analogy.. you bastard!!! i really like that particular movie!! Im learning how to work on my guitars as I learn to play.. so it was nice to find someone who started where Iam starting, except you play and Iam learning.. well done sir!
Wow, talk about minimum effective dose! Weird star trek stuff aside, I totally appreciate your approach to fret leveling and will use the 2 color pens going fwd. What are your thoughts about tapping a high fret down with a non- metal jewelry hammer? What's happening when a formerly level fret board develops a high or low fret all of a sudden? Liked and subd.
Thats the best fretwire out there by the way....the jescar super jumbo..i have installed it in all my guitars...its the biz....i find it funny that we still have guitars nowadays that go for thousands of dollars and still have that crapware puny nickel silver ones.....even my squier bullet wears it...instant high end neck when its all crowned and polished properly....very cool video by the way and nice approach to fret work....
The problem with spot leveling is that it only makes the frets level to the adjacent frets so it can still be like a roller coaster. With full leveling with a 16" beam it levels all the frets to the same level..
You can easily use a crowning file and check with a rocker every few passes and get a fantastic result. No reason to level all the frets if only a few are high.
@@Stratisfied22if you use a "long" leveling tool(as one should) you only lever those that need it, the lower frets won't get sanded...it's physics...doing it , or marking it at 3 frets at best at the time , gets faulty results..plus one shouldn't do it if the neck isn't on the guitar, hasn't been under tension for a while yet...wood still needs to set...but hey, these days the dumb teach the dumber and they all think they are professional cause they made a TH-cam video
HAHAHAA I thought of a way as soon as you posed the question and you ended with the same idea I had. I had no idea the tolerances were so bad in fret wire.
The problem with fret rockers is they can give a false reading at the first fret....too high, too low, ..which then moves the issue across the entire neck....
That was what I was thinking the whole time. He said that “you start to see patterns emerge” that’s because you’re transferring the first high (or low) fret, down the neck. Maybe I’m missing something here…
@@maxwellblakely7952 okay, thank you. I'm just learning all this but I can't help thinking he is using the previously identified "bad" fret as part of the read of the next fret over. I know I'm not expressing it very well, but I keep thinking that unless he fixes the "bad" fret first, he is just biasing the read on the next fret.
I made my Judgement! all fret jobs are subjective! err-one has they own way of fretting! what works for you and your customer loves it? hey! just like making your recipe of pot roast.
Yup. That's the way. One important addition is that the fret slots should be the same width as the fret tangs minus the barbs. Dental bits (used in a dremel) come in sizes to match tang width (see Kent Everett for more detail}. A similar approach crops up in Highline guitars. However, you describe the process in a slightly more organised and detailed way.
That whole fretrocker method gives me the creeps. You're measuring three frets... Lets say the middle is off. You mark it with that red pencil... Then you're measuring the next fret off that high fret... Lets say that fret measures good so you paint it black. But in reality it can not be good because you're measuring from a too high fret. It can never be a referenced fret... You get the point? The best is still the beam. Period. Oke spotleveling has its purpose for 1 or 2 frets. This is my opinion. The only method with this fretrocker that works let's say you start at the headstock assuming your first fret is correct and you encounter a high fret, you immidiatly have to adress that fret to the correct height and then measure the next fret.
That's what I was thinking. In his demo, frets 3 and 5 are high and 4 is OK. But once he files down 3 and 5 then 4 could now be high. It could work, but you would have to keep iterating back and forth.
@@goog646 ,The old fashion method with the beam works the best. A precision ground flat fret rocker detectes the slightest deviations between three frets but you want absolute no deviations across all the frets. The fretrocker is nothing else then a very short scale device with 4 straight edges....When you do this method you're constantly moving the problem to the next fret. I do fretjobs all the time , did these experiments also with mixed results , but from experience I stay with the good old beam that gives me good results everytime. Tip : If you're buying measuring tools like straight edges,fretrocker, leveling beams,notched straight edges, make sure dead they are as flat as possible or make them dead flat against an object that is precision ground . The results of fretleveling are depending on the tolerance of the measuring devices.
The more perfectly level you get your fingerboard the less fret wire you have to file. A fret press also massively helps but for les Paul’s and any other glue in neck you refret you have to hammer in the last bunch
My first time seeing frets sanded level was for me a what the heck, gotta be a better way moment. Glad I stumbled on to your video. Thanks . After watching, your still grinding! You should have went back to the press!
*if* your fretboard is absolutely level and you can precisely press in every fret to the exact same height you won’t have to level the frets. That also assumes the tolerance on the fret wire is high and its height doesn’t change from fret to fret. Ideally you won’t need to remove much material. But obviously in all the decades of people building guitars that hasn’t happened. Except maybe the original Parker Fly guitar.
As someone pointed out in the comments - may not be the perfect method of establishing low/high frets using a fret rocker alone. I made the same mistake when doing my first spot leveling job on my own guitar. Relying on a fret rocker alone can be misleading, unless you are pretty good at ruling out all the "incorrect scenarios". I thought of using a digital caliper (with a height probe) - if in doubt which of the frets is high and which one is low, it's easy to figure out by double checking the height with a caliper. Make a "fret map" in Excel using the fret rocker + caliper and the just do the spot levelling. P.S. Not something one would do when time is money, but I think it's a good workaround when working on your own instrument
Say you put fret rocker over first three frets. No rocks, perfect. Or the first one is high? Or the third? Or maybe the second one you pressed harder and it is lower, the wood gave a bit... But no rocks, all good. Move the tool and you find the third fret is high and when you level it maybe now the second is a bit high to the rocker. By the time you get around to check all of them in order to save 0.03 mm in height and few minutes crowning they should be half way leveled, crowned and shiny. And you can use fine diamond leveling files instead of sanding beam, sand paper tends to give as it is not super hard, even when glued to flat surface. It is also not uniform thickness and wears down, there are tolerances just like with the fretwire height and your CNC, no matter how good it is. And you also have to sand after machining to make wood pretty. Leveling ensures good height correlation between frets when done properly and one could argue that no excess material needs to be removed in the process. Oh, and keep that rocker parallel to imaginary string on the neck or otherwise you will get false reading on radiused boards.
Loved the video content and presentation style , great to see others who like to go deeper into analysis. Been thinking a lot about “better ways “ to do things when it comes to fret levelling . I have just emailed a uk guitar builder to get his thoughts on making a fret levelling tool/system.
@@MarkGutierrez the basic idea using a radius block that covers the whole neck , but very thin , made of steel . This would be for the purposes of levelling while the strings are on and the neck is under tension . I already an understring levelling beam by stewmac and like it but I want to try my idea as it seems a lot simpler to use (for me anyway ) Whether levelling with strings on is more accurate /better I don’t know for sure. But I just like my idea because I haven’t seen it done by anyone else and it would at least as good and possibly better/more accurate than with string off. This flat radius block would also have the ability to move up and down the neck without tilting from side to side which could mess up the radius. I have an idea using guide rails on a neck jig that the flat beam would run along like train tracks .
@@ourclarioncall A few thought on your idea : With strings on, you would still have to adjust truss rod to get the board flat, so why not just take the strings off ? also, how about the rest of the process (crowning, sanding, polishing) ?
@@escalator9734 I think the belief is that the neck takes on a different shape while Under the strain of string tension bump curves and twists might manifest that were not apparently with strings off So to level with strings on would more make the frets levelling more precise Is it true ? I Don’t know There are ways you could manually test and analyse the end result , or put it in a plek machine
@@ourclarioncall Well it does take another shape based on what you do with the truss rod. If you keep the neck flat with strings on, you'll end up with the same level as with strings of. But if you have relief, leveling under tension will remove that relief and you end up with, effectively, a flat neck. But you just wasted your time end lots of metal. You a right about the bumps and twists, my strat has a short truss rod and probably not a great neck, so it ends up having relief up to the 12th fret and then gets flat, the 1st fret and the 12th+++ are on the same level and the middle ones are low. In that case a system like your idea would be good, I think.
Near perfect is planning a fretboard under string tension, adding a little fall off to the fretboard, cutting radius blind fret slots, using a fret press jig to press your frets in. Doing this you get 0 to 3 frets that need to be touched, sometimes none with Jescar Stainless. Do this 300+ times a year with a Plek. A Gibson does not have a straight fretboard 99% of the time. You fret levels are only has good as your fretboard level.
This is a brilliant technique. I'd also add that not only you're saving time and effort while preserving the original crowing of the fret wire, but you're also preserving as much height/meat as possible, which guarantee optimal playability by minimizing finger friction on the fingerboard. This is SO important, especially when playing leads. We want ''low action'', NOT low profile frets! Thanks for sharing your technique Mark! ♥
But all the frets are not on the same plane if you spot level. They could be all over the map. That's why it's not a good idea to spot level
So, you level frets with a fret kisser? Oops. **Spoiler alert** He levels frets with abrasive. Same as anyone else. He's doing nothing special in the slightest. And if the negative comments are irksome - don't drag people here with the 'I don't level frets tagline' and then babble on about Star Trek and proceed to level frets with sanding. People feel cheated and won't ever come back. There's meant to be a level of trust between viewer and creator. I came here excited to see a new guy working new methods and had my time wasted, left with a bad taste and won't be back. I was a definite potential new subscriber and repeat viewer. That being said, your final board was very nice and I like the inlay work. I just won't return is all and that will be typical of a lot of viewers I imagine.
Way too serious and too much misery....lighten up.
Haha! Nice! Can't beat them hog knuckles. But, I slightly edited, deleted and reposted a comment made on the same viewing due to TH-cam not letting me edit and post it, for some reason. Also, there was some absolute weapon babbling like a lunatic in the replies, so it was a win/win. And you leave little Billy out of this! Also, I clearly meant I won't be back as a channel viewer and subscriber. It's this type of logic that my son exhibited that made me abandon young Billy in the first place. :) @@BryanClark-gk6ie
@@matthewstephens6848LOL!
This video sucks. I'm tapping out 7 minutes in.
Cry babies to the right please --->
This was a breath of fresh air with your soft spoken delivery and the lack of guitar-based music! Kudos for not following the herd! Subscribed!
wasn't that a guitar synth?
I've been playing since 1988.. it's only been the last few years that I've actively been doing my own set-ups.. thanks for imparting your knowledge and skill! Loved the relaxing music too!
The background music and low voiceover made me feel like I was working on guitars and on a mission to some moon orbiting Jupiter. I will buy the Fret Kisser because of this video. Thanks bud. Nice teaching and coaching.
Hey.like your video . I am Amsata . I am the inventer of ftrekisser .i use it also like this. I use stainless frets and dont think also that You need to level all the frets,but i wanted i tool that wil level just the high spot, so made this tool and work with stewmac to make it.it started in 2013 and 2018 it was ready. Nice frets work
A lot of times you can tap down the fret with a fret hammer as well. This is usually the first thing I attempt before doing a complete leveling.
It's all I do. Unless forced to do otherwise.
This video is so great. Best overview of fret leveling I've found, with careful explanation and mentioning ALL THE GRITS IN ORDER. Thanks!
Thanks for the awesome comment. And thanks for watching.
THANK YOU! I made a video about 3 years ago, called "How NOT to be a fret leveling moron (and actually do it the right way)", in which I talk EXACTLY about this thing which pisses me off whenever I see all these big TH-camrs showing their extremely poor understanding of mechanics and physics, despite being super famous. Spot levelling is THE only way to level a fretboard! The only thing I do differently than you is 1) I check the fret along its entire length, not just in 3-4 spots, as you risk missing out small local bumps despite thinking they can't be THAT localized, but trust me, they can, 2) I don't have a Fret Kisser, but I'm using a regular diamond file, works perfectly and 3) no fall-off past the 12th fret since it's not needed, as I spoke about in my video. Again, I applaud you for the video!!! ♥
@ShawnHawkins33 I know that was meant to be both funny and on point, but it was really one of the worst analogies 😁 there are so many differences, both conceptual and practical, I'd have to write for hours on end... but really, it's not the same at all 🎸
The more I watch fret work vids the more I'm convinced that I'll certainly f up with such a task
You won't. Leveling frets is not hard nor is crowning them with the right tools. Don't let all this technical mumbo-jumbo doubt yourself.
Totally agree with your method! I did my first fretboard by sanding the whole fretboard and thought there had to be a better way. My next one I came up with the same process as you. It’s easier, quicker, and 90% of the frets remain untouched and full height.
I DON'T LEVEL FRETS(proceeds to level frets). Glad I read comments before I wasted 25 minutes of my life.
What the hell is this? He's the Bob Ross of luthiers. Happy little frets!
I'd normally be mad at this level of clickbait, but the inlays in that fretboard are so cool I couldn't click away.
Buffing wheel on the dremel is much easier and more consistent than the cone shape. Flitz is the only compound I use. It’s my last step after fine sandpapers. The wheel conforms to the fret shape and polishes the whole thing. One pass each direction and you’ve got a mirror finish.
I laughed out loud at the time travel stuff box. Good luck on your journey.
Thanks Matt. The box was my nod to Rick and Morty.
I always start for leveling in the middle of the neck and then work towards either end that way I'm sure that the second fret isn't off when you do it starting at the second fret you're never really sure it's like laying a tile floor you want to make sure that everything's level at the highest point in the room
I can see this being a benefit for stainless steel frets because the sanding marks are so hard to polish out.
If your fret rocker actually rocks when placed over three frets, is the middle fret too high, or is one of the outer frets too low? Both situations will produce the same 'rocking' condition. If you then reduce the height of the middle fret, and the problem was actually with one of the outer frets being too low, then you could be introducing a slight 'wave' of height variation as you move along the fretboard: not good when you are fretting the strings in different positions! Yes, I know that string tension will tend to pull a slight amount of relief into the neck, but for accurate, consistent fret heights, they must all have their tops originally in a straight line. After making sure that the fretboard is as straight as possible using the truss rod and a slotted straight edge, and marking ALL of the fret tops in the accepted way, a very light pass with a levelling beam which has 400 grit sandpaper will quickly show the condition of all of the frets: if only a few frets (or parts of frets) have their tops cleaned by the sandpaper, then these are obviously the high ones, which can quickly be reduced to the correct height. If only a few frets are left untouched, then these are the lowest ones: all of the other frets then need to be reduced in height. Either way, when you are finished with the levelling beam, you can then be sure that all of the fret tops are in line, without the risk of introducing the 'wave' height problem which seems to be a real risk when using your method.
I'm with you on this. If you think the frets are level and don't want to over-sand anything, start with1000 with all the frets marker'ed. If the frets are right, you'll unmark them all at the same time, equally. Confirmation that you're good and at worst, you just polished your frets a little. If it isn't level, well, then you know what to do.
Agreed, good points. Considering how many frets needed leveling, he should have just used a beam to begin with. And then did spot leveling if needed afterward.
Agreed. Ironically, thinking you can level a fretboard in groups of 3 up and down the board - if done systematically and repeatedly (because you are changing adjacent readings each time you lower a fret) can take the same amount of time as judiciously using a long beam in the first place. Of course that will never happen because in the end you can simply raise the string height to avoid all the pockets of varying fret height.
An additional factor that comes to mind regarding this process is that once a high fret has been lowered, it will then affect how adjacent frets may then rocker test with its neighbors.
Adjacent frets will likely test differently after an adjustment than before.
I wonder if it might be best to start at the bridge end of the neck and work towards the nut.
When a high fret is encountered, adjust it down to its proper height before moving onward, testing and adjusting as you go, one fret at a time until you get to the nut.
I've heard stories of people spot-leveling frets starting at the nut end of the neck and ending up with a nightmare of "chasing" high frets all the way down the fretboard, with each subsequent fret adjustment causing the next fret to then test high.
By starting at the bridge end of the neck, I would think that such a problem would be eliminated.
One may say that it shouldn't make any difference, but think of it this way as a player.
Which high frets give us trouble when playing?
The answer is the high frets that are towards the bridge from the location where we are attempting to fret.
Take care of those, then see what else may be problematic working back towards the nut.
The fact that the "fret kisser" can even be used with the guitar under string tension, not only so the results of an adjustment can be immediately tested, but also that the guitar is in its true "living conditions" while you work and test, is a big plus.
It may be easier for an experienced guitar tech to simply do a traditional leveling of the entire board, but for a guy like me who likes to work on my own guitars, but shies away from extensive fret work, I'm a fan of this spot-leveling method.
I've yet to actually attempt to do it, but I'm going to buy one of these Stewmac fret kissers and give it a try.
I appreciate your detailed and exacting approach to guitar building. I’m a lot like that, however, I doubt if anyone could afford one of your guitars simple because of the time you’ve invested. I have tremendous respect for you, especially the Star Trek example. Big fan! I think you should pursue the “one mold press idea for pressing fret wire in a level way. This can and should be done.
Before leveling just try to hammer that fret in a little bit. Way easier to try than to start leveling brand new frets.
Glad you mentioned the Plek.
I really enjoy seeing hand crafting. Therefore I have a great appreciation for people who have the knowledge and hand skills to carry out this work with minimal of high technology machining.
Speaking as a metal and composite machinist, with 23 years of practical experience, preserving these older skills is very important. If you have a machine that does it all for you then you become reliant on that and the ability to problem solve outside of the machines capability is lost.
Basically spot leveling. I did this on my current build. Fret rocker and red Sharpie for the high spots. You have to take special care that leveling a fret doesn't make an adjacent fret high by comparison.
You got me. And then you relaxed me. I forgot about how I'd stumbled blindly into this warm light, and just chilled right out. Nothing at all to do with leveling my frets. So thankyou!
That fret rocker rocking in that position could also indicate the 2nd fret being lower. If the 2nd fret was too low, the fret rocker wouldn't detect that in the first checking position. If the 3rd and 4th frets were correct, the fret rocker would still rock the same way as in the video.
Just curious if one fret is higher than the others and you mark it, then precede down the neck using the fret rocker, won't the high fret cause an inaccurate read of the next fret?
Sir: the concept is called “tolerance stack.” In a manufacturing environment, the effect of several small deviations from the desired dimensions in a part compounding until the part exhibits an undesirable characteristic. The choice of using a precise, and very expensive, process to produce perfect parts every time, or use a less expensive process and correct the parts later to bring them into spec is a difficult one, particularly when a manufacturing innovation can come out next week that can change the variables in play. Excellent video!
Theoretically, all PLEK machine does is scanning the fretboard with a z-level indicator and then chipping away the excess metal. It's tolerance is 25 microns. Cheap CNC machine has tolerance of 50 microns, so basically if one can rewrite its z-axis algorithm to scan over the fret board it will do the exact same thing, you just need the one that can be programmed.
You approach fretwork like a mechanical engineer, very methodical and meticulous and more than a little bit anally retentive about it, but the results validate your process. I've been building guitars and doing fretjobs since 1985 and I get results as good as yours or anybody's, but I'm a bit more "production oriented" about my process, meaning, I crank it out in a couple of hours. I've learned shortcuts that work for me. I'm certainly not afraid of running a levelling block over the whole fretjob, this is actually a necessary part of the process if you want ultimately low action.
I can routinely deliver fretwork that's better than the average results from a Plek job. Plek is not magic, it just automates the general process. It's no better than the skills of the guy setting up the machine. It is NOT the magic bullet some people make it out to be.
interesting technique, i will give it a try since one of the selling points of Jescar SS wire is to potentially have a very long lived initial setup and possibly never needing a refret. It doesn't make sense to erode your wire material thickness from day 1. Do you check level with a beam as the last step? From an engineering standpoint, it would seem if you use only a rocker over a few frets that you could have a compounding error once you get 12 os so frets away?
I actually like your tip about adding the marker information to the tape, I generally use the butt end depth gauge of a micrometer towards the end of the crowning process along with the fret rocker to keep everything super consistent. As I can see how your method here is basically spot leveling, and would be just OK on new frets. An already played guitar that would possibly have string wear divets in the fret's up towards the cowboy chords generally, you'd want to take all the frets down to a certain level and need to recrown everything to get rid of those and keep everything level.... I won't even go into the price of the fret kisser, considering the same can be done with 2 tools you probably already own if doing any amount of fret leveling or fret maintenance.....
excellent video all wood made for guitars has a mind of its own to stabilize fret arc height gives the player there tone/sound total enjoyed your passion and expertise thankyou for your time
Necessity is the mother of invention. Im sure someone will find a remedy someday. Kudos to this guy for trying. BTW you should start your own ASMR channel 😊
Next he’ll be crunching down potato chips with the mic right next to his mouth.
Building guitars got me here, but, being a science fiction fan, Star Trek won my subscription. Great informative video
Agreed! Does not make sense to grind down new frets. Makes me cringe just thinking about it. Thanks so much for this info!
Excellent video! It was interesting for me to see that you and I ended up developing virtually the identical approach. Great minds think alike! 😆 Immediately leveling all the frets probably came out of luthiers’ desire to get things done very quickly. If you don’t care about some height loss, you don’t even need to check anything; just blast everything level, crown, and Bob’s your uncle. When I learned 45 years ago, that was somewhat the norm. It took me a long time before I decided to start by spot leveling first, and working to avoid touching any frets I didn’t have to. In my view your approach should be the expected standard in guitar repair, and it’s wonderful that you made this available for people starting out. There are so many “instructional” videos by nubes, and people with lower standards. So I guess you have high standards as a luthier, AND as a TH-cam contributor! Outstanding work.
I'm sure the die/draw plate was not designed to push through a perfectly shaped fret.
Also rolling the fret radius will change the shape.
Therefore it's always a good idea to take a bit of the top (uniform). So you have a flat spot on the top of all the frets.
That is why you keep a thin black line on the top of the fret when shaping it.
When you set the frets, use a clamping jig to make them all level before the glue sets.
So what would you do if you needed to grind down neighboring frets? Wouldn't that change the whole, overall reading all the way down after the neighboring frets?
In a used guitar scenario I do everything I can to only file the top material I need to after doing my best to tap down high spots. Once I have quadruple-checked after filing my way up the fret board and I am satisfied I will do my crowning, fret end dressing, sanding and polishing the frets. So far I have had good luck and not experienced low spots but I did buy radius sanding blocks rather than my between string flat level sander just in case. I am very new at this and still trying to acquire decent tools ( little by little) so if you have any suggestions feel free to let me know! Thank you for this awesome video!
I halfway agree with you. 100% you should check your frets with a rocker before leveling to see if it is even necessary. If you have properly cut fret slots and didn't use glue, you can often tap the high fret and get it level with a smooth brass or dead blow hammer. If you can't get uniform level with the hammer, if there are 5+ high frets, i'd rather do a whole level and crown and know it's right.
this answered a question. It's the fret tolerances during extrusion that make perfectly seated frets imperfect all across the board. You can have a perfect board, perfect slots, and imperfect fretwire. I too asked, why are we leveling frets? Is most fretwire imperfect? Yes. Yes it is.
Good info. I always look for different more wise ways to do my thing. I was just doing black where I saw it was high.
I do that in the same way!!! I even mark the tape as you do LOL. I didn´t know about the fret kisser though, that will make my life way easier. Thanks for the video!!!
I essentially do this same thing, but I don't tape the board (make the notes with a pad and pencil) and then do the bulk of the levelling with a fret hammer. You still generally need a hit with a levelling with a beam of various sizes though. That's the step I came here to try and eradicate. I've got to get the Fret Kisser too - it's super expensive here in the UK, but the amount of time it can save you is 100% worth it.
I like the approach and the rationale to it, now could it be better to do this under string tension, that changes significantly the geometry of the neck, especially around the fall away zone (e.g. typical issues around the 12 fret?) Then using something like a stewmac Fretbar understring Leveler partially taped in the center with abrasive and ordinary tape on the side ? kind of home made fret rocker
This guy had us valved off waiting to release for 14 whole minutes before revealing the dirty deep secret - the fret kisser... lol nice.
So you measured off a fret that needs leveling ? Why do you glue them in? I’m not aware of any manufacturer doing it. Do you clean matching oil off the fret tang before you Install to keep them from creeping out ? Do you level the board on a refret first ?
Absolutely fantastic.. As a garage guitar builder (cigar box guitars) I haven't decided if the price of the fret kisser is within reach for what I do, but this really starts a chain of ideas! Thanks!!!
Hi Jon, I guild cigar box guitars too! Thanks for watching.
OK. I HAVE found a much better way to do this. When the frets have been installed I simply tap down the high fret areas with a fret mallet. That takes a lot of this work away AND the frets are well seated so contraction does not make them lift out as easily.
If you try that with stainless steel frets they will eventually go back to their "Memory" state, and it's why bending them accurately before press fitting them in. Never use a hammer/mallet to put in SS frets, ore you may throw them out of whack and they will want to stay that way. Stainless must be over bent to where when relaxed the radius is right. Nickel silver, especially the older soft varieties are forgiving, but even the somewhat tougher modern versions are less so.
@@Bob-of-Zoid Thanks! Did not ever work with SS. Good to know.
Very cool ideas and beautiful work!
I was lucky to be taught as an apprentice to Dick Robinson. That way that you are doing it is the old Luthiers Guild certified way of fret leveling. You are right a leveling beam is offensive to a Master Luthier. I actually had to make my own fret rocker/leveler out of Arkansas stone, I don't buy StewMac overpriced junk. Off the shelf tools just are not good enough. Your instincts are good, your way has grater potential to be perfect. You see the truth is even a calibrated flat can't make perfect level anything, there is a meniscus effect in the leading edge and trailing edge when sanding that will take off more material at the edge than the center of the flat. AND!!! If you can't set up a neck better than a PLEK machine you are NOT a Master Luthier!
Nice to see I'm not the only one working on a time machine.
I endured your drithel for 2 minutes and I'm done. Thanks for that.
Thanks haha
...a little constructive criticism as I'm watching your process... third fret needs height adj., yet you referenced all the consecutive fret heights to the third, which you'll change.
I wondered about that as well ..... ( like as in Austin Powers when his eyes go cross-eyed .... )
Fantastic technique. I have done similar, fret rock and spot level, but your method is next level. Great work. One tool I think would fit your method is the Hosco UFO, check it out if you aren’t familiar with it. How do you like the wide fret press from the UK? When (or if) you do mono-scale guitars do you use it to an arbor press?
Never saw him make sure the fingerboard was level.
But he said he did
Watching your videos, you and I have come to several of the same conclusions independently that have shaped our methods. I find this quite interesting. I also avoid using a leveling beam as much as possible, by using almost this same method.
I press frets, then check for level. If possible, I’ll clamp them down to level, and glue them. Most of the time this works, and I can get away with 0 leveling, if I’ve done all previous steps properly (dead flat neck, consistent pressure when pressing, etc) if I ever have to spot level, I do so the same way as you. Fall away is the only time I typically use a leveling beam on a board. Is it elegant? Meh.. but I get to keep those original crowns!
Great channel man! Love the content, and the intelligent approach to luthiery.
It makes me happy to know others have come to the same conclusion. Thanks for sharing your process.
Did 3 different electrics, two regular stainless, one jumbo stainless, did only marking on the masking tape with a similar fret rocker. Lots of iterations, great results. The most demanding is working the fret ends.
I love the soundtrack. It has some very Blade Runner era Vangelis parts.
Nice video again. And what a subject... Frets are driving me crazy, I still have two of my project that need a fret leveling and I hate doing that! (that is probably why my current one is a fretless 😅).
I will try to find that stewmac rocker to give it a try like you do 😉, maybe that way I will stop procrastinate on those fret jobs...
Cheers from France! 🇫🇷
Hi Jacky, frets used to drive me crazy too. Getting the right tools really helped make the process much easier. Good luck with your fret jobs.
Ce n'est pas les frets qui vous fache. C'est probablement le bois.
I use 6 inch precision flat ground stone, sold through metalwork outlets (normally used to dress milling machines etc).
Similar technique, felt pen on all the frets, careful use of the stone to take down high frets.
A metal radiused "block" the length of the fretboard. Place frets in slots and clamp block down on them. CA into the ends. No leveling needed afterwards.
if there are inconsistence's in the wire material and crown surface then no this will not work
@@T0tenkampf Just use a mallet thereafter on the uneven frets and it's like magic.
@@T0tenkampf Actually the opposite would be true. If the metal radiused block is stiff and clamped evenly, not allowed to bend, the frets will only be able to follow the block. It actually would allow the frets to have some variance and the fret board to not be flat.
Did not watch the whole video so not sure it was mentioned.....What happens once the neck is put on and string tension is introduced ?
Doing a set up under the chosen string tension corrects any problems that may have been introduced when attaching the neck. So doing all this with the neck off makes no sense to me....may get you close (or not) But a final level is still needed on the bench under tension or simulated tension to the specific guitar IMO....
Great info! Thank you! Your guitar frets put be like heaven to play.
That last idea pressing all into at one time...sounds level to me.
LOL.
I love the box marked "time travel stuff", nice little Rick and Morty Easter egg for us there lol Of course though if we ever experienced "true level" we would need to destroy the guitar and wipe the memory from our brains or the world would be forever uninhabitable for us.... So don't get too crazy, let it be a little off... lol
True level is just too much for our tiny human brains to comprehend! Lol
C'mon Mark, post more often than regulary! I really like u'r guitar builds videos. U're doin' great job and I kinda like u'r ASMR-ish sound. I'm an engineer and guitarist too. Greetings from Romania!
Thanks so much for the encouragement! I'll try to post more often.
@@MarkGutierrez Keep the posting quality up over quantity, your attention to detail is what keeps me coming back. From the star trek references & "time travel" labeled boxes to you composing the music it all adds up to really great content. Thoughtful content is timeless. Im working on plans for a headless 7 string currently and all your videos make me rethink my process and plans. videos that inspire hit a bit different than thrown together youtube nonsense.
2 potential solutions theoretically.
If the fret tolerance was the only issue. Which it most likely is a big part of it but not the only part, making a jig with a die or some other mechanical form of correction that you could pull the wire threw to eliminate the inconsistency in the wire before installation would be one method. This would probably be the least likely seeing as how it’s such a tight tolerance and SS doesn’t manipulate in that way without heat or abrasives.
The second would be a tool that could be run over the fret to produce a perfect height from the fret board to the crown however the radius of the fret board would make this extremely difficult by hand. I believe tools like this exist but more for getting the crown than a perfect height.
Unfortunately the fact that wood tends to adjust to all sorts of environmental factors it’s really more complicated than that. I remember watching a video on PRS and how the make up to 30 adjustments to the neck day over day bc each adjustment will cause a reaction from the wood and hence requiring another adjustment.
Maybe a better solution would be something other than frets? Not necessarily fret less but an alternative? Out of the box solution..?
Like a aluminum neck with the frets machined out of it, or possibly a processes of manufacturing that allows fret wire to be installed in a different fashion.
That's what I said too. No matter how good your CNC machine is in his example we're talking about wood. It's inherently unstable and constantly changes. You would have to use non natural materials to achieve better stability... However this would pose a problem for acoustic instruments since a lot of the sound characteristics come from the wood.
I see you got lucky with red frets in the middle of black ones. What happens if you have 2 or more red frets next to each other? How do you use the fret kisser when there are 2 uneven frets on either side? How do you choose which one is good to level?
on the perfect world example, warwick has that machine but i still level them on repair jobs.great video btw
Have you seen a tool called the " fret bone " ? The 2 angle tool is incredible for reshaping the entire fret after leveling so it's perfectly symmetrical after leveling process . Not to mention very easy to use and fast !
I just looked it up. It's ver similar to the Stew Mac Z file.
@@MarkGutierrez yes but I have the z file it doesn't reshape the whole fret take another look .👍
@@MarkGutierrezThe LittleBone fret file is a patented invention from 2011 from the same inventor of the Reference fret leveling concept that you are using in this video. Please search for the Buzz Killer fret tool.
Using a maker as guide coat and a 16 inch beam is more true for me a full fret level is more consistent
you hooked me with the star trek analogy.. you bastard!!! i really like that particular movie!! Im learning how to work on my guitars as I learn to play.. so it was nice to find someone who started where Iam starting, except you play and Iam learning.. well done sir!
Wow, talk about minimum effective dose! Weird star trek stuff aside, I totally appreciate your approach to fret leveling and will use the 2 color pens going fwd. What are your thoughts about tapping a high fret down with a non- metal jewelry hammer? What's happening when a formerly level fret board develops a high or low fret all of a sudden? Liked and subd.
Thats the best fretwire out there by the way....the jescar super jumbo..i have installed it in all my guitars...its the biz....i find it funny that we still have guitars nowadays that go for thousands of dollars and still have that crapware puny nickel silver ones.....even my squier bullet wears it...instant high end neck when its all crowned and polished properly....very cool video by the way and nice approach to fret work....
The problem with spot leveling is that it only makes the frets level to the adjacent frets so it can still be like a roller coaster. With full leveling with a 16" beam it levels all the frets to the same level..
You can easily use a crowning file and check with a rocker every few passes and get a fantastic result. No reason to level all the frets if only a few are high.
@@Stratisfied22if you use a "long" leveling tool(as one should) you only lever those that need it, the lower frets won't get sanded...it's physics...doing it , or marking it at 3 frets at best at the time , gets faulty results..plus one shouldn't do it if the neck isn't on the guitar, hasn't been under tension for a while yet...wood still needs to set...but hey, these days the dumb teach the dumber and they all think they are professional cause they made a TH-cam video
HAHAHAA I thought of a way as soon as you posed the question and you ended with the same idea I had. I had no idea the tolerances were so bad in fret wire.
The problem with fret rockers is they can give a false reading at the first fret....too high, too low, ..which then moves the issue across the entire neck....
what's the solution?
@@unabonger777 level them all...
You should't level the first fret
That was what I was thinking the whole time.
He said that “you start to see patterns emerge” that’s because you’re transferring the first high (or low) fret, down the neck.
Maybe I’m missing something here…
@@maxwellblakely7952 okay, thank you. I'm just learning all this but I can't help thinking he is using the previously identified "bad" fret as part of the read of the next fret over. I know I'm not expressing it very well, but I keep thinking that unless he fixes the "bad" fret first, he is just biasing the read on the next fret.
When you remove material height from #3...everything you do affects the following frets. If there was no rocking of 345...there will be.
¿?
What about an attachment on a hydraulic-press that can press in all the frets evenly at the same time, for a fret leveling result?
I made my Judgement! all fret jobs are subjective! err-one has they own way of fretting! what works for you and your customer loves it? hey! just like making your recipe of pot roast.
I never saw a fret whisperer!! 😂
Yup. That's the way. One important addition is that the fret slots should be the same width as the fret tangs minus the barbs. Dental bits (used in a dremel) come in sizes to match tang width (see Kent Everett for more detail}. A similar approach crops up in Highline guitars. However, you describe the process in a slightly more organised and detailed way.
That whole fretrocker method gives me the creeps. You're measuring three frets... Lets say the middle is off. You mark it with that red pencil... Then you're measuring the next fret off that high fret... Lets say that fret measures good so you paint it black. But in reality it can not be good because you're measuring from a too high fret. It can never be a referenced fret... You get the point? The best is still the beam. Period. Oke spotleveling has its purpose for 1 or 2 frets. This is my opinion. The only method with this fretrocker that works let's say you start at the headstock assuming your first fret is correct and you encounter a high fret, you immidiatly have to adress that fret to the correct height and then measure the next fret.
🤯
That's what I was thinking. In his demo, frets 3 and 5 are high and 4 is OK. But once he files down 3 and 5 then 4 could now be high. It could work, but you would have to keep iterating back and forth.
@@goog646 ,The old fashion method with the beam works the best. A precision ground flat fret rocker detectes the slightest deviations between three frets but you want absolute no deviations across all the frets. The fretrocker is nothing else then a very short scale device with 4 straight edges....When you do this method you're constantly moving the problem to the next fret. I do fretjobs all the time , did these experiments also with mixed results , but from experience I stay with the good old beam that gives me good results everytime. Tip : If you're buying measuring tools like straight edges,fretrocker, leveling beams,notched straight edges, make sure dead they are as flat as possible or make them dead flat against an object that is precision ground . The results of fretleveling are depending on the tolerance of the measuring devices.
Some people don't know what they are doing, just because they make a TH-cam video , doesn't make then knowledgeable...her is a good example
The more perfectly level you get your fingerboard the less fret wire you have to file. A fret press also massively helps but for les Paul’s and any other glue in neck you refret you have to hammer in the last bunch
My first time seeing frets sanded level was for me a what the heck, gotta be a better way moment. Glad I stumbled on to your video. Thanks . After watching, your still grinding! You should have went back to the press!
This is awful advice - just level correctly.
Fret leveling asmr…brilliant!
*if* your fretboard is absolutely level and you can precisely press in every fret to the exact same height you won’t have to level the frets. That also assumes the tolerance on the fret wire is high and its height doesn’t change from fret to fret.
Ideally you won’t need to remove much material. But obviously in all the decades of people building guitars that hasn’t happened. Except maybe the original Parker Fly guitar.
As someone pointed out in the comments - may not be the perfect method of establishing low/high frets using a fret rocker alone. I made the same mistake when doing my first spot leveling job on my own guitar. Relying on a fret rocker alone can be misleading, unless you are pretty good at ruling out all the "incorrect scenarios". I thought of using a digital caliper (with a height probe) - if in doubt which of the frets is high and which one is low, it's easy to figure out by double checking the height with a caliper. Make a "fret map" in Excel using the fret rocker + caliper and the just do the spot levelling. P.S. Not something one would do when time is money, but I think it's a good workaround when working on your own instrument
Say you put fret rocker over first three frets. No rocks, perfect. Or the first one is high? Or the third? Or maybe the second one you pressed harder and it is lower, the wood gave a bit... But no rocks, all good. Move the tool and you find the third fret is high and when you level it maybe now the second is a bit high to the rocker. By the time you get around to check all of them in order to save 0.03 mm in height and few minutes crowning they should be half way leveled, crowned and shiny. And you can use fine diamond leveling files instead of sanding beam, sand paper tends to give as it is not super hard, even when glued to flat surface. It is also not uniform thickness and wears down, there are tolerances just like with the fretwire height and your CNC, no matter how good it is. And you also have to sand after machining to make wood pretty. Leveling ensures good height correlation between frets when done properly and one could argue that no excess material needs to be removed in the process. Oh, and keep that rocker parallel to imaginary string on the neck or otherwise you will get false reading on radiused boards.
Putting a fret rocker on the first fret is already a fail.
Loved the video content and presentation style , great to see others who like to go deeper into analysis.
Been thinking a lot about “better ways “ to do things when it comes to fret levelling . I have just emailed a uk guitar builder to get his thoughts on making a fret levelling tool/system.
Thanks for the comment. Let me know how your fret levelling tool system turns out.
@@MarkGutierrez the basic idea using a radius block that covers the whole neck , but very thin , made of steel . This would be for the purposes of levelling while the strings are on and the neck is under tension .
I already an understring levelling beam by stewmac and like it but I want to try my idea as it seems a lot simpler to use (for me anyway )
Whether levelling with strings on is more accurate /better I don’t know for sure. But I just like my idea because I haven’t seen it done by anyone else and it would at least as good and possibly better/more accurate than with string off.
This flat radius block would also have the ability to move up and down the neck without tilting from side to side which could mess up the radius. I have an idea using guide rails on a neck jig that the flat beam would run along like train tracks .
@@ourclarioncall A few thought on your idea :
With strings on, you would still have to adjust truss rod to get the board flat, so why not just take the strings off ? also, how about the rest of the process (crowning, sanding, polishing) ?
@@escalator9734 I think the belief is that the neck takes on a different shape while Under the strain of string tension
bump curves and twists might manifest that were not apparently with strings off
So to level with strings on would more make the frets levelling more precise
Is it true ? I Don’t know
There are ways you could manually test and analyse the end result , or put it in a plek machine
@@ourclarioncall Well it does take another shape based on what you do with the truss rod. If you keep the neck flat with strings on, you'll end up with the same level as with strings of.
But if you have relief, leveling under tension will remove that relief and you end up with, effectively, a flat neck. But you just wasted your time end lots of metal.
You a right about the bumps and twists, my strat has a short truss rod and probably not a great neck, so it ends up having relief up to the 12th fret and then gets flat, the 1st fret and the 12th+++ are on the same level and the middle ones are low. In that case a system like your idea would be good, I think.
I am curious on how you did this inlay on the scale, which material, can you teach us? It's pretty beautiful 😄!
Near perfect is planning a fretboard under string tension, adding a little fall off to the fretboard, cutting radius blind fret slots, using a fret press jig to press your frets in. Doing this you get 0 to 3 frets that need to be touched, sometimes none with Jescar Stainless. Do this 300+ times a year with a Plek. A Gibson does not have a straight fretboard 99% of the time. You fret levels are only has good as your fretboard level.
wow how many bulbs to be able to make a refret
how do you know how high a high fret is in relation to other high frets. that's why we level the whole board. silly billy!
Seems like worth a try. ..creative technique.thank you very much
really interesting vid, thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it
What kind of tip do you have on your Dremel?