These Units Need Buffs! Part 2 - Total War Warhammer 3 | Competitive Multiplayer
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The Hierotitan has been bad for so long that I've kinda forgotten it exists despite being the TK's signature unit. Truly tragic. Anyone remember how cool it was in the TK's cinematic trailer?
I don't think it even needs a major buff just somthing to push it honestly refining it's animations to work may get it there. As it has the kodlack issue where when it hits it hurts but it often can miss point blank.
The buffs it got tricked me into bringing into tournaments and it was so disappointing. 😂
TK and Vcoast are still two of my favorite trailers exactly because of the one-upping of units they do near the end. Then you get ingame and the big, badass guy is kinda meh.
I would put Necropolis Knights at the top of my "please buff" list. They're monstrous cav that don't even have a charge animation. They just get to the edge of a formation and start nipping.
The Rogue Idol seemed to have gotten hit with the WH3 change to wounds, as it already had a wounds system, and now it gets a double debuff when it gets lower in health. I'm not sure how much it should be buffed though, considering that it has a whopping 16000 hp!, that's more than the Dread Saurian has at 1100 gold cheaper.
I hope CA keeps listening to you and the community for PVP!!! So glad you guys help to keep this game alive and thriving!
Bloodcrushers! If you agree that Skullcrushers have issues, you gotta agree that Bloodcrushers have these issues doubled!
Essentially, it's an anti-infantry unit, that gets trapped inside infantry blobs, and if you don't take absolutely perfect engagements, they won't even pay for themselves.
Btw, my solution to all Bulldog cavalry would be to allow them to be able to push through infantry like a monstrous infantry. That way, they would be much more useful and unique.
Lamassu's issue is that it's a feral manticore that costs 500 more with utility that doesn't matter. It has the two worst spells of the lore of shadows as single use bound spells and magic negation aura on a roster with very little physical resist on a couple of expensive units. As a mount it has the least health and AP out of the three, despite costing more than the great taurus. I think it needs 1400HP increase to put it on same level with great taurus and a passive 30/40% wind regen. Chaos dwarves have currently no access to winds of magic regen boosting, which hurts them as it takes ages to get enough for a fate of bjuna or overcast final transmutation. This would give it a niche.
Spider could use collision attacks. It's just a big body so a unit like that is always going to be niche even if it kills large targets well, especially given how good boar boy big uns are.
All rot fly units should get their charge bonus tripled. Currently their one use case is that they seem to beat vargheists in air-to-air combat, but it's not really enough.
Warshrines could maybe start at half charge. But to be honest their current design just encourages you to fight in a static blob, so I'm fine with them being bad. Alternatively make them faster and squishier and rework the bonuses to aid in offense rather than granting effects like mortis and healing.
Rogue Idol has a niche use case in land battles against factions that struggle dealing with large SE's, like WoC and slaanesh. Again, collision attacks would help. But this thing is never going to be good in domination since big slow SE's have limited utility and people can summon counters.
Hierotitan has niche use case when paired with Arkhan against rush factions that can't heal their lord. The bound spirit leech stacks with regular spirit leech and it boosts Arkhan's casts. Maybe make it cheaper since it is hard to justify taking it over kitties that kill infinite chaff.
Carrion, fell bats and harpies have that old flier design of having really high MD but abysmal MA. I suppose the intention is that they occupy archers instead of kill them, but now you have crowmen and furies who can just kill stuff. These units should have their MA and MD flipped, or at least adjusted so that they are better at offense instead of just buying time until the enemy peel kills them.
An idea for the warshrines - you can pay to get bigger buffs on the army maker screen. Similar with mounts. That way you balance it's effects+ thematics with it's cost effectiveness
If the next video does not mention the rotting promethian I swear to god. That thing is so bad and powercrept. It has either no or 10% missile resistance, not great animations, and is so bulky that they get sniped and whittled down by basically anything and everything. Maybe give it a silver shield representing its shell (or, and I think this would be a worse less thematic option, just more missile resistance) ? It also probably needs some collision mechanic improvements because it feels really janky when fighting.
It’s not viable in almost all multiplayer matchups in all main modes from my experience and as an avid coast campaign enjoyer it is rarely justifiable or even frankly that good (especially for its price point) in campaign. I’d rather get more armor piercing gunners let alone a necrofex colossus.
Just let me be able to sometimes run the BIG FUNNY CRAB viably. Please CA! 🥺
Just give Carrion the hunger
rotting leviatan i assume you mean? bc yeah i forgot that thing existed too lol
@@jenzyk1302yeah leviathan. I mistyped, just realized and fixed it.
Dude, when was the last time you saw a hell pit abomination
What about a nice, happy little Bloaty Boy?
Bloats boys for 425 are plenty good.
Yes! Skullcrushers buffs, precious. At the very least, they need some speed. Khorne's elite cav being lower than Plague Toads is nuts.
They definitely need buffs. But I don’t mind them being slow behemoths that rip and tear. Although that’s probably bad for gameplay, I think it’s cool thematically.
@@veisticon91 They definitely need a little stat boost too so they aren't outperformed by Mournfang Cav with Great Weapons but they also still shouldn't be slower than Nurgle's Toads. Something like 70 speed instead of 62 is a good balance.
Lahmassu in lore had a few lore options (some of which was different from lores available to Chawi mages). Apparently, CA planned to give them at least two or three options but cut the corners at the last moment.
All the high armor SEMs should have extra missile resistance that scales negatively with health to simulate armor being chipped off with damage. Regular missile infantry should hardly be able to damage Rogue Idols etc. when they're above ~60% HP, even if they otherwise have high AP missiles. These guys should be able to charge enemy lines and only start to take missile damage once they have been worked over by e.g. halberd infantry or other SEs.
Just give them missile block chance similar to the Steam Tank(not necessarily the same value). That would decrease the effectiveness of small arms fire to a degree, without taking anything away from big cannons designed to destroy such monstrosities.
I think the silence aura on the lammasu would be to strong, because it‘s a flying unit and it exists as a hero-mount. Maybe give it an effect similar to ikkit‘s zapp zapp, where each hit silences the target for maybe 10-15 sec.
Rogue idol built-in wounds system should be an explosion of stone shards causing local AOE damage. I hope they keep it as an infantry "blender".
The war shrine of nurgle giving regen to the frontline before fecundity builds up has served me well
Skaven always triumph, we're already perfect. ~Grey Seer Thanquol, probably
Don't forget the poor forgotten Dragon Ogres and Dragon Ogre Shaggoths!
Chaos Warshrines - They need to be cheaper or give some additional baseline buffs. Even if they came fully stacked out the gate, the Khorne and Undivided warshrines might not be worthwhile with how expensive they are. With the need to stack their effects, it's even more difficult to justify the any of the warshrines, as the khorne/undivided warshrines lose value as the units they're buffing are damaged.
Something like -200 to their cost, and a stronger effect or faster charge-up for the Khorne/Undivided shrines would probably make them more reasonably worthwhile.
A mortis engine is basically a 33% over-stacked Slaanesh warshrine (deals 33% more damage) + half stacked Nurgle warshrine at the same time for only 100 more gold that also causes terror and increases WoM recharge rate by 20% - it's weaker in combat, with less armor/damage/melee defense, but also has normal regeneration and is much faster, and the combat stats of warshrines are still poor enough in practice that they struggle to contribute anything meaningful in combat.
It's Crazy seeing units get up from insane hits....
i just hit 1000 hours in this game and i didnt even know Hierotitan was a unit, i would have thought it was a mod or something lmao.
Turin doing the work of the GODS! CA, hire (or at the very least listen) to this living saint!
Absolutely, i vote for both hire and listen. Cool units very quickly become uncool if they don't perform as intended. Ideally, every unit should have a role- it's not always realistic, but at least address the low performers
It seems to me the divide in good and bad big monsters is the animation, in how many models it hits. Monsters without charge I think Need to just hit as big as a monstrous charge with every swing, for how much you're sacrificing with maneuverability.
Last time I wrote of my mains DW and LIZ, so now EMP and TK my second best two factions:
EMP:
Flagellants - Is the idea of this unit to be unbreakable bloker to protect your shooters? Or a weak enemy infantry muncher maybe? Well, they to expensive to do any of those. Either decrease their price or give them some anti-infantry killing power.
Basic Archers - all other shooters are quite neatly put to their roles, archers just need to be cheaper a bit to be nice weak swarm.
Reiksguard - they need something to make them different from Blazing Suns and universal useful and cheaper Empire Knights.
Outraiders - a bit more Firepower to make for how squishy they are in comparison to wagons?
TK:
Necropolis Knights - both types are just to expensive to be useful
Casket of Souls - It used to be powerful, now - screaming skulls catapults are just so so so much better!
I think the warshribes are a prime example of just overcosted, just take 100-150 off their cost and its fine
Depends on the warshrine. The undivided/Khorne shrines need more help than the Slaanesh/Nurgle/Tzeentch shrines, since their effects depend on the units around them being relatively healthy, while the other 3 do not.
I'd really like to see the Undivided/Khrone shrines get a a little something extra from the start, or for their effects to just be made stronger to offset their decreasing value as units take damage compared to the other 3.
Lammasu definitely aught to be priced as a sidegrade to the great taurus rather than an upgrade. Maybe Carrion could just be given The Hunger to heal in melee?
Temple Guard. For what they should be, temple guard feel somewhat underpowered and I think it would be a good idea if CA gave them a look over and some minor stat buffs.
I feel we need unit costs split, one cost for campaign games and one cost in multiplayer games
Who cares about a 100 gold difference in recruitment cost in campaign, without the patch notes no one would even notice.
I think part of the problem with Carrion is their Mass. They are a mobile tar-pit unit with a fairly large hit box, but they are considered "small"(anti-infantry works against them) and they only have 80 Mass per model. They have lower Mass per model than most infantry. They are super cheap though.
The Greenskins have the Giant, Arachnarok, Rogue Idol line up. The Giant is the heavy hitter and vulnerable(but also the cheapest). The Rogue Idol is tanky with a focus on dealing with infantry blobs(as it takes damage, it deals damage around itself and its weapon strength increases). The Arachnarok is the in-between. High Armour, decently fast(compared to the other two), has poison and anti-large, and a bit of ranged harass.
The Hierotitan is a spell enhancer. It is a very defensive/bodyguard type unit compared to the Khemerian Warsphinx(which is a lot faster and has a lot more charge bonus). It can snipe at expensive cavalry or at a mounted hero. Works pretty well with Khatep on his mobility scooter. It might be slightly overpriced.
Yes, a crow has less mass than a person. How is this a problem ?
@@Ron_Jambo_ It is a problem when a bat(which is smaller than the Carrion model) is 150 with more than double the amount of models, and the Carrion is 80.
It means that the Carrion is easy to push around and cant really block any unit.
@@fendelphi Yeah my bad if you used bats as comparison my comment make no sense, sorry
Thanks for a great review- you are hitting all the units that need to be brought up to speed. What do you think about Cold One Dreadknights? They have great stats, beat most other cav units in the game, but they get very little play. What can be done to make them more popular- cost decrease, increased speed, etc? Also, their ROR is virtually identical to the base unit. What would you do to make it more unique?
One suggestion is plague monk censor bearers. For 1000 gold they are worse than bloodletters
Sorcerous Miasma on the Lammasu does nothing given how little phys res there is on the Chorf roster. It's a nice ability and fits but at least give the Lammasu and some other Chorf units a useful amount of phys res to make use of it.
Rot flies have lacklustre combat stats and their charge bonus is way too low for a chonky 90 speed flying unit.
Dunno what you do about the Rogue Idol. It has low damage output because it's speed is so low that it spends a very small proportion of the time fighting and quite a lot of it walking around being shot in the face. If you make it faster that doesn't seem right and if you buff its damage it murders other single entities. Basically it's a campaign unit. Probably should have perfect vigour though.
I think for the R.Idol it should be a generalist
It’s a giant pile of fucking Boulders it don’t matter what it hits it hits hard
I would love the Lamasu to get some love. Such a cool model. I don't think they could do a silence with a flying monster though. Unless they put it as 'engaged in melee'. Otherwise, folks will just park it over the enemy spellcaster (if they can't fly). Now, that could set up a counter play of using your caster as a bait piece. But... seems like it would be a little abused. If it's supposed to be anti magic, maybe something like missile mirror?
lol literally just watched part 1, to then see part 2 uploaded 7 minutes ago.
For the Rogue Idol and the Hierotitan, maybe make them more of a support unit along with some increased damage. Like make them the equivalent of war shrines, something both their factions could use a little bit of. Maybe make the Rogue Idol something that can choose whether to do Gork or Mork buffs - either as something equivalent to the scrap mechanic or as an activatable. The Hierotitan, just give it a flat buff in a radius around it that maybe improves healing, attack, defense, etc.
What if the Arachnorak had an aura active ability where it slowed and debuffed melee attack and defense of all non-flying enemies (due to webs).
Maybe they could get a limited use of Snares, like the Beastmen Eye of Morrslieb?
I want the Great Unclean One to work. I want to see him kick ass. Alas, his only function is the same as the Warhammer 1 Chaos Spawn (i.e. pin cushion). Give that happy sack of crap innate missile resistance and a mortis engine that kicks when enemies around are half-health, like germs making their way into the wounds and obliterating the immune systems.
Weird to compare the Rogue to the K'daai since the Rogue Idol actually can kill infantry units. It's mobility is an issue but it's damage output is pretty good, back when it was unbreakable it saw some play.
I feel buffing it's MD a bit would help it trade better.
Hierotitan just needs collision attacks activated and they're solid.
Still no mention of doomfyre warlocks??
They are in part 4....haha
I think Festus needs his healing buffed to its original form, but raise it only to him. Keep the current healing as is for the aoe.
The lamassu not having magic resist is a catastrophic L
Carion bound ability flock of doom
Maybe not much of a practical or super impactful idea but give the Lammasu either a targeted or AOE debuff where enemy casters can't overcast their spells.
Think the passive bonus you talk about for warshrines would be a good start, and you know it would be easy to say lower the amount of kills needed to fire it up and get em useful.. They just tend to be useless thoughout the battle and either dead by the time they worth anything, or the battle is over by that time..
Next up.. All the greater daemons ? ;)
Couldn’t you give the Lamashtu the distrupt contact effect for increased miscast?
I'm noticing a theme: a LOT of SEMs are underpowered.
Welcome to "cost effective" hell. The only viable strategy is going wide with crap infantry and cavalry, elite units and monsters don't exist because everyone is still playing medieval total war or rome total war in a warhammer game. What else explains the weird bretonnia boner everyone has? 😂
@@rjstram Well there's this thing called tactics. Cav is great because mobility is super important. Infantry is good both for general all purpose use and tarpiting things. Elite units honestly hardly ever get used for the same reason as monsters - because the mp army point cap is so low that you can only bring 1-2 expensive things and then its super easy to delete them with missiles and magic. And monsters have the added issue of being both slow and meh in damage.
Keep up the good work @Turin
The aracknarock I think is good but only against big target
Often I play more or less only goblins and troll plus it in multiplayer and it does its work against lord and monster/monster infantry
I dont think it would be broken to give Lammasu Melkoths over one of its other spells
2:59 “costed appropriately” aka *_priced_ appropriately 😅
I want monsters to be less powerful but more cheap. Right now they are pretty much all in cheese.
Never use rot flies..they can't leave combat
did you call it the iroh-titan? Because, now I want cathay to get the iroh-titan.
How is orc boar boy chariots not on this list. When was the last time you saw an orc boar boy chariot. Never. Needs some love
110% on Skullcrushers and Bloodcrushers. Why are they smaller than chaos knights? They should be 2nd only to Ogre Crushers. Grail Knights are WAY too strong as they are currently. Grail Knights are super humans on regular horses. They should be equal to Chaos Knights, who are also super humans on horses. Skullcrushers are super humans on monstrous GIANT METAL DEMONS. There should be no contest on which unit is superior. Monstrous Cavalry should be in an entirely different class performance-wise compared to horse sized cavalry. Poor Demigryph Knights should also be stronger than they currently are. Mostly, I just hate how overtuned Grail Knights currently are. I mean, they should be the strongest regular cavalry along with Chaos Knights and Blood Knights. But the "monstrous" in Monstrous Cavalry needs to mean something.
I would like to see LOC get more talent then two measly 1 use spells and a stick
Just compare Warshrines to Grail Reliques and you'll see just how underpowered the Warshrine is.
I saw Carrion lose to an artillery crew the unit is that bad.
The Withering is a dope spell, i almost never use Melkoths.
how do you use it?
@@sandercohen9712 Armor debuffs are always nice for shooty armies, leadership penalty helps break things under artillery fire.
@@SlaaneshChampionMako The debuff isn't too subtantial I think, if you want to LD bomb then doom & darkness is way better (and cheaper) and if you want to lower armor then plague of rust is better (and considerably cheaper) Not that Chaos Dwarfs really need to lower armor since their roster is padded out with AP, making the withering even more useless on the Lammasu.
Is the 3rd video just norsca lol
Buff cannons ! they reload waay to slow
ANAKIN HELP ME HELP ME I AM MADE OF ROCKS BUT IT IS SANDSTONE ANAKIN IT IS TOO SOFT AND WEAK ANAKIN!
Honestly would be better a community patch for it, there are several cases from old monsters ( arachnarok spider in special) that CA just dont know how to balance then and/or refuse to change things.
but I do agree with all choices here, in particular with rogue idol, would be nice to see some tunning on our rock boy ^^
Idk its like CA has been moving way too slowly in taking community feedback - i mean weve all been complaining about the same units for years now
I feel like if CA see this their takeaway will just be that the Khemrian Warsphinx needs to be nerfed 😢
70% of the Slaanesh roaster should be buffed. Atm half of it is just pointless fluff and its one of the weakest faction out there with you having to play almost flawlessly while opponents who play factions like the dwarves or nurgle can just sit on their hill and barely issue any commands and you will barely get a pyrrhic victory.
That's less an issue of the units being bad, and more a fundamental problem of those match ups by design. Nurgle and Dwarfs are two of the least mobile factions in the game (the other of note being vampire coast, but Coast has a bit of an awkward match up vs Slaanesh due to its units not matching up well vs the Slaanesh roster - guns with a lot of AP are less valuable vs a faction with little armour, and army-wide ITP is very good vs army-wide fear and easily available terror.).
Slaanesh is a faction that's very focused around mobility, and it needs to leverage that mobility to take favorable fights by design - that's hard to do vs a blob or box that doesn't really engage in the mobility play in the first place. Its only real recourse is to drag units out with the rampage spell to open up more opportunities and crack open formations, but that doesn't work very well vs Nurgle, since Nurgle is a melee blob faction and can just follow the rampaged unit, and has healing magic if needed to keep a unit healthy, though it does work vs Dwarfs, as pulliing ranged units into melee or pulling a unit out of position can crack open the box and give Slaanesh access to the more vulnerable ranged units; + slaanesh has AP furies that are very good at jumping into the box and shutting down dwarf missile units.
@@Matt-ln7lb You'd still have to be on top of your game to pull one off against the dwarves,plus the have no real answer against single entities or flying units. Your best bet is to take Nkari and debuff the shit out of them and hope he wins fast enough, but other than that ....
@@islar7832 Azazel, furies, and marauder cav, and/or rampaging the flying units to the ground with Pavane are their answers to flying units. It's not perfect, and Slaanesh could use something better, but they do have answers.
Gyrocopters are currently OP, but that's a bit of a different matter.
N'kari vs Dwarfs isn't really a good idea. That's putting way too much of your army into a single entity that'll likely get shot to pieces by crossbows once it steps into range. If the Dwarfs have a runesmith/runelord/Thorek, they could also have rune of slowness so N'kari can't dodge as well.
And yes, Slaanesh does have to play better to win than dwarfs. That's by the design of the faction with its emphasis on mobility and flanking. If Slaanesh is ever NOT more difficult to play than dwarfs, that would be a problem in its own right.
There are plenty of bad match ups in the game, and Slaanesh vs Dwarfs/Nurgle aren't even the worst of them.
@@Matt-ln7lb You're right, but it still feels incredibly lacking. Marauder cave is kind of a joke with them being the only ranged unit and furies melt away in a volley or two.
Swinging back to my main point, Slaanesh also has a lot of units that severely underperform, like it is easier for me to name the good units than the bad ones. But some of the most egregious examples are the chariots (I personally haven't seen anyone who uses them) The chaos knights, omg, the chaos knights, they look so good and even on paper their stats are amazing, but they always underperform and fiends are in 99% of cases, the right choice.
Other good units includes the chaos warriors and the demonets (exalted& chosen included), Soulgrinders & Keepers of secrets are okay too and maybe spawn... but that's pretty much it, the rest are kind of trash units... That's half your roaster...
@@Matt-ln7lb Forgot about the Seekers which are amazing.
lets see for trash units that are trash directly because of multiplayer balancing, deck droppers,animated hulks, cairn wraiths, DE cold one cav. gorgers, the ogre cannon really isn't worth picking up anymore, doesn't perform its cost well, doomseekers are only good w/ ungrim. I'm sure I could think of more with another 15 minutes to think.
I always hear how terrible infantry and shooting is in old world. So disappointing to hear as somebody who wants to start a dwarf army. Makes me not even want to play the game
6:10 Please dear Turin, dont compare TWW with "Warhammer the old world", - its "not based on that ruleset". - Its based on "8th ed Warhammer Fantasy Battle"
I dunno. I feel like many of these units are more based on unit compositions, like the rogue idol.. playing as skarsnik there is basically no tanks at all until you are grabbing eight peaks, and the idol fills this role..? Like sure you can get giants, but both of them are for a specific purpose, like focusing on single entities or armor pen, with no leadership at all. Making the idol pretty good amongst them as a tanking units with much more leadership and damage soak.. if he would also do a bunch of damage as well as he is tanking role that might be way too OP?
I believe turin talks in the multiplayer context, in campaign most units are viable one way or another.
This is mostly without campaign in mind
It is -entirely- without campaign in mind. Turin only covers multiplayer! Pure pvp shenanigans here.
Just make the Hierotitan use it's spells smoothly.
I have no idea why when i click Burning gaze, it has to spend 30 seconds rotating towards the enemy i targeted, then another minute staring at it, only to then not use the ability half the time.
All the while it's getting it's ankles shanked by whatever it was in melee with.
And the giant enchanted stone construct with armor layered over the stone has 0 missile resist, somehow.
I was thinking about the old Bestigors. In tabletop they have a rule where they snatch banners from enemy units. What if, in Total Warhammer, Bestigors got a heal when a unit near them breaks? It would only trigger once
i cant remember where, but i heard someone say the rot flies are really bad because of their 16 charge bonus. sword and board infantry have around 12-18 charge, and for cav killers to have only 16 is pitiful
i think carrion should just be a copy paste of fellbat tbh its essentially their purpose. not as impactful as a fury but more like a flying hound unit, i could see them wanting to make them more unique tho so perhaps slightly better than fellbat but worse than fury would also be ideal
One of the big problems with slow monsters is how vulnerable they are to ranged attacks.
You'd think that arrows wouldn't do much to a heirotitan.
Faster monsters can dodge well enough (but even then look at keepers).
I think almost all monsters could use a missile resistance buff - or maybe even directional resistance like the steam tank (to a lesser degree). It just feels so lame when your giant monster gets melted by slings or gobbo arrows.
Side note: it still bugs me that "dodge saves" that skaven ninja/de sister units have is a phys save - they should be able to dodge magic attacks too. "Oh no he has a magic sword I just lost all of my martial arts skills at the mere sight of it" doesn't make a lot of sense.
This is a bit late but the detail regarding carrion that always eats at me is their abysmal mass in regards to other fliers and their model counts
Carrion have 80 mass, the same mass as tomb king regular skeleton warriors. To put this into perspective, Fell bats have 150 mass with 60 models and skaven slaves have 90 mass with 180 models.
Should a dead bird have high mass? No probably not. But having mass tied for the lowest in the game with a unit model count rivaling the great longma riders of cathay is ridiculous to me.
how is the hierotitan bad? iit has 3 gazes and spirit leech, it makes it a pretty good generalist because the missile spell fucks vs infantry but can also be used vs sems, artillery or characters, its also a tank