@@therealcoleshowI work at a highly ranked liberal arts college. From what I seen over the last couple of decades, you are wrong---DEAD WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s the same with education in every country. There has been a pervasive ideology of simplicity that is obsessed with eradicating foundations of education that a young scholar requires. There is no point reading complex literature without the basics of grammar.
I have both Wheelock's and LLPSI and I've decided to start with Wheelock's after watching your review. It does require a decent amount of grammar knowledge but I do like to understand everything through and through when I'm learning it. And I think you are spot on about not guessing anything regarding Latin. The language is highly inflected which is worldly different than English. This means a slight difference in declension or conjugation will convey entirely different meanings. Guessing will only worsen this situation. Thank you.
You have summarized my own position very well. I have a copy of LLPSI myself, and while I think a careful student could learn from it, there are many pitfalls that are hard to avoid without a proactive teacher. Wheelock's served me well; Henle's Latin is another solid choice. Good luck in your studies.
@@Catholic-Perennialist I'm self-learning at the moment. No tutor available whatsoever. Is Wheelock's and its exercises sufficient on its own? I'm not sure about the workbook though. Is it a must buy if I'm going to stick with Wheelock's?
I started learning Latin by William E. Linney's book Getting Started with Latin (according to me this the best Latin book for absolute beginners) and now I'm using LLPSI. Currently I'm on the chapter 10.
@@Art-is-craft Do you think an absolute beginner (who doesn't know how an inflected language like Latin works) can understand LLPSI without any knowledge of Latin ?
@@Aditya-te7oo Yes they can grasp it through LLPSI and accompanying sources. But most people cannot do it on a casual basis. Starting with a simple foundation such as Gwynne’s Latin and then moving on to more complex sources is far more effective. Also listen to fluent Latin speakers helps.
@@Art-is-craft I don't think an absolute beginner can understand LLPSI without any knowledge of Latin. He will just guess. And guessing doesn't work in Latin. For understanding a Latin sentence one has to know the verb conjugations and noun-pronoun-adjective declensions. Otherwise he won't understand.
I have seen this book and its workbook in book stores YEARS ago, and the gramnar scared me! I found the Form Series from Memoria Press, and although its made for 4th or 5th grade students, they do not slack in the amountvof work expected of the student! They make sure you know the grammar via flashcarda, grammar questions, recitation and "Drill Forms" ( badicaly Tables you have to conjugate, parse, and decline verbs, nouns etc. I can spend easily an hour on Latin studies, filling out verb tables, doing workbook pages, going through recitations, etc. I am mot reading full Latin as I am still in week 3 of my studies in First Form, but I can conjugation nearly 30 verbs in the Present tense System, 1st conj (-are), and I can recognize vocab words in my Latin songs and chants I sing even if I dont understand the endings. I hate "parsing", but I can see why it is done! Maybe after the Form Series I will continue with Wheetlocks.
Great review! I have been debating for ages whether to learn Latin or not. I finally gave in and purchased a used copy of this book as well as the Henle grammar and first year book. I'm excited!
Get a copy of a Latin Vulgate as well. The New Testament is one of the easiest texts you'll encounter. It's a great learning tool. Don't get discouraged. There's so many online resources now.
Excellent review! I'm really excited to have my own copy of Wheelock's latin! Luckly, here in Brazil, we have some of these previous grammar knowledge, cuz otherwise we couldn't really learn/speak portuguese, a language that demands grammar in everyday practice.
I want to thank you for your review and breakdown/synopsis of the Wheelock Latin textbook. I decided to check back in on TH-cam and see if anyone had posted a review because as you stated there aren't really any reviews of Wheelocks Latin. Reading J.P.Mallory's _In Search of the Indo-Europeans_ and several penguin classics publications got me interested in studying a Indo-European language, and I have decided to give Latin a try, mostly because I'm interested in Roman history. Unfortunately, my grammar knowledge is not up to par with what I guess the text requires. I took English courses all the way through highschool public education except for my Senior year if I remember correctly, and I can assure you I didn't learn a damn thing! I know you recommended familiarizing oneself with English grammar terms and concepts, but my question is could these things be learned on my own without needing to take a class on English grammar? Any advice?
I can tell you that when I began studying Latin I was more than a decade removed from any formal schooling and likewise had not learned much grammar. I had to begin with the basics which meant, at a minimum, understanding the terminology common to both English and Latin. You should understand the eight parts of speech, the functions of a noun, the tenses of a verb, etc. When you approach Latin, you should begin by drilling yourself in basic subject-verb conjugation patterns. This coupled with the function of each noun case will get you started. It is important to not progress faster than your comprehension of terminology will allow; otherwise you will not understand the grammar lessons in each chapter. I have been meaning to upload begginer's lessons for Latin, but I do not have the equipment to do this well. My students progress through the language differently than most because we do not practice much rote memorization or utilize vocab lists. Learning is facilitated by constant reference to examples drawn from Latin texts and constant practice using the Latin Dictionary. My students can function equally well no matter the curriculum, whereas some programs force the student to become dependent on a particular brand. My method is a modified form of the Foster method, but I developed it independently.
i feel lucky since in high school i was taught what a case is what preposition(post position is) cause of my native language hindi and then sanskrit which carried onto english even the aspect. be the infinative
Ive been using the Henle text and I like it better. I think its easier to remember long term cause you do so many exercises. I also like how its more gradual so you remember the grammar more naturally.
I own that text as well and have used it sparingly. I like the Catholic content, but I could never get away with untroducing such content into a public school classroom. I agree, it has many more exercises while still not deviating much from a grammar-translation approach.
Man I came across this review of the text years ago, and I’m about to pick Wheelock up again and start digging into it, while simultaneously learning Irish and playing around with other text I’ve bought on various Indo-European languages such Greek, Sanskrit and Hittite, plus I’m somewhat of a Roman history enthusiast… I have no idea Mīlle Gratias
Question, Can anyone provide some helpful hints on how I can use this text as a supplement to the Lingua Latina text? My goal is to learn how to speak Latin conversationally but also to be competent in my grammar. In other words, to be able to move around in Latin freely like I do with English. I have access to both texts so I would like to exhaust these resources. Thanks
Great review. I’ve been using Kennedy’s Latin primer. I’m using it in conjunction with online tutorials and I’ve recognized there’s some pronunciation problems in Kennedy’s primer particularly with some vowels. Do you have any thoughts on Kennedy’s and if so would you recommend using wheelocks to supplement with or to study afterwards on its own? Thanks for any input. Appreciate it.
Kennedy is old school and a little different due to it being a British text. I've never gotten hung up on pronunciation because it varied greatly amongst even the native speakers. I prefer Wheelock's to Kennedy on the basis of organization and usability, however, many of the world's great latinists were brought up on the older text. I recommend Wheelock's in conjunction with the 38 latin stories addendum and then the Vulgate to set your teeth in some authentic beginner Latin.
Thank you for the review. Do you have any resources on Classical pronounciation? I'm using Henle Latin and it's working fairly well... I feel like I need more help though and Wheelock's may fill that need.
The internet is the best source. The only rules that I can give you in a brief post is that C is always hard, and V is pronounced as a W. The stress of each syllable will depend on the number of syllables in the word and is sometimes affected by the case/or tense.
I think Italian Latin speakers are the best to follow. Especially those that are deeply aware of the difference between Ecclesiastical Latin and Classical. And how their own native Italian tongue relates to that. It means they can clearly differentiate pronunciation. I find some of the western Latin speakers who trained through books have not gone deep into pronunciation and their abilities are better in terms of teaching the structured form of Latin.
Hello. Thanks for the answer. Please tell me why you use the term "guess"? For example, in the book LLPSI, on which Hans H. Orberg worked all his life and thought through every detail, children use the method of induction, knowledge of language and grammar from the particular to the general, which is confirmed by practical positive learning outcomes and consistent with Stephen Krashen's hypothesis. What do you think about this?
By Latin 3, the constructs become so complex that a child's intuition is no longer sufficient to the task. A student who is accustomed to paying heed to inflection can work his way through a text; those brought up on Orberg's method resort to educated guessing. I've seen it too often.
Sorry. I'm unsure of an equivalent for ancient Greek, although I would be more confident concerning koine Greek. In any case, studying Greek is made much easier by studying Latin first.
I used Wheelock's for 3 semesters in college Latin. My 4th semester we read the Aeneid. Of course after about 25 years I don't remember much. I'd like to get refreshed. Maybe I'll break out my old Wheelock's. Now my daughter is learning Latin in 6th grade (!)
I did not use a workbook. My professor made assignments based on the text from scratch. The exercises in the book are more than enough to learn the material, in my opinion. In teaching, I do use the book titled "38 Latin Stories" as supplemental material. It is based on the content, vocab, and pacing of Wheelock's. I will do a review on that text in the future.
You may not need grammar "books" per se. You may only need to brush up on basic grammar terminology. Know the 8 parts of speech, and be able to explain the function of each Latin Case. I have a video on this channel about that very subject. Wheelock's is very explicit in its grammar instruction, but the terminology must be deciphered to benefit from it.
Do you have any experience with "A Primer for Ecclesiastical Latin"? I'm undecided between purchasing Wheelock's or the above mentioned book. I'm mainly interested in Catholic writings, but would like to read some of the classics as well. Thanks!
No, I don't. But I am familiar with Henle's Latin, which is a Catholic text. Wheelock's is so cheap, it wouldn't be a bad idea to buy the ecclesiastical text and pick up a used copy of Wheelock's just to compare. I find the ecclesiastical pronunciation to be more beautiful than classical, but more difficult to master. A start in ecclesiastical Latin should make a transition into classical at a later date relatively easy.
1 month later and I'm about to finish CAPVT XV. Very satisfying and rewarding experience so far. I use LLPSI and 38 Latin Stories alongside for more sources of fun/facile reading material. But I do sometimes have trouble telling adjectives from nouns as they often share the same endings and tend to decline in the same manner. Any advice on this issue?
The difficulty also lies in the fact that adjectives sometimes act as nouns; they're called "substantives." The only sure way of determining between noun and adjective is to memorize the vocab thoroughly and to pay close artention to context.
@@Catholic-Perennialist The substantives are not that difficult to tell as it usually stands alone as a subject or object. There's one instance I went way off when reading the SENTENTIAE ANTIQVAE of CAPVT XIII. "Nihil corpus humanum conservare potest". I mistook humanum as the dir object of conservare where it instead is an adjective modifying corpus.
Wheelock may be more thorough, but god how is it tedious! I for one loved the Cambridge series. No, when you are finished you are not able to read Cicero nor the more difficult passages from neither Caesar or Nepos, but it is way more entertaining. I absolutely loved the stories and the narrative.
Thanks for commenting. I can't say I disagree with your assessment, but I am wondering at what grades you took your Latin classes and how long ago. It seems to me that it is much harder to engage students, even with Cambridge, since the advent of the smart phone.
I think that you are absolutely right. In Denmark the interest in Latin and Greek is extremely small. It is neither useful nor profitable in Denmark... That said, I study Latin and Greek in a university in Denmark in my third year. Haha. Still now, a fairly advanced reader in both, I can not recommend Wheelocks. I acknowlegde that youths know shit (and they will probably never learn it unless they actually find it interesting) about subjunctive, subordinate clauses, case and syntax. So the Latin must be as easy and less grammar heavy as possible. And in my opinion both Oxford and Cambridge does that better than Wheelock. They are more dumped down, if I may say so... But I am 24 so my age could help indicate that younger people find Wheelocks more challenging/tedious/heavy :)
@@silaskristensen5798 Yes. I currently use Cambridge, but even this proves to be too hard and fast paced for many students. In my opinion, Latin is something that you have to want to learn to do well in; it cannot be passively imbibed simply by sitting in a classroom.
I don't find Wheelock's tedious at all. It started off very difficult indeed, but it gives me a feel of accomplishment after each chapter like no others, especially when you begin translating English sentences into Latin. Plus Wheelock did an amazing job carefully selecting texts, adapting poems for you to work on while requiring you to fully utilize what you have learned in current and previous chapters.
Hello. Thank you. There is an opinion that LLPSI teaches you to speak and think in Latin, and the study of Wheelock's Latin will make you a translator but will not teach you to read, think and speak. What do you think about this?
I've never been convinced of that. All of the students I've ever encountered who used the natural or inductive method were only good guessers whose abilities were never keen enough to make them fluent.
Hi. Thank you for this video. Can you tell me/us if this book contains an answer key to the exercises posed in each chapter? If so, is it a full key, or does it only show answers for select questions (as some mathematic texts do, to my frustration).
Answer keys are available in the form of teacher's guides, but these are sold separately. Pretty much every exercise has also been done online, which you can check for free. Quizlet is good for this.
I would study Latin first, then Greek. Greek is relatively easy after Latin. Both simultaneously should only be attempted when the constraints of time require it.
For straight grammar-translation texts that are still in print, I think Moreland & Fleischer beats Wheelock. Yes, the chapters are too long. But in every other way, it's superior. The material is clearly explained. From the first chapter, you get a passage to read. By the end, your reading substantial passages of unadapted latin. One of the best traits is how the vocabulary is listed in uniform columns. This allows the learner to quickly self test on vocabulary by covering the column with a card. Answer keys are also easier to obtain for the autodidact.
There are different ways to teach language. Two include the blam! between the eyes of upfront grammar instruction, like Wheelock, or the incremental baby steps method, more like LLPSE. I do not learn well from the former style. This is a key to learning something like a language. Students need to find which system works for them. Trying to follow a course instruction methodology that makes no sense to you is a fools errand.
I started off with this text because I knew no better. It appears to be popular in university courses. While it does teach you grammar, it does not really give you any feel for the language. The isolated, out of context sentencs, often make no sense because the context is lost. Not only that, but most of the sentences for translation are dull. Far better would be reading passages. After spending many hours on the Internet, I eventually discovered 'Familia Romana', which is a far better approach to learning Latin. That said, certain things just have to be learned by rote, preferably in advance (see the Ranieri method). The Ranieri method advocates learning the declensions of nouns, adjectives, and adverbs, and the conjugations of the verbs before even starting. This is a heavy task and you need to be a truly committed student to even undertake this. However, the benefits are huge. Having this core under your belt makes learning the language so much easier; because you will immediately recognize what role a noun or verb is playing in a sentence. So, while Wheelock gives you a grammatical grounding, it does not provide you with any real intuitive understanding of the language, Yes, you can translate a sentence, but can you formulate your own original ones? I think not! You need external readers to inculcate your brain with a natural understanding of the language. So, I'm not totaly discounting Wheelock with its boring sentences entirely, but you cannot rely on this text alone to teach you Latin; for , if you do, you may never truly master the language.
It's really only supposed to carry the student through Latin 2; and your are correct, using the language for verbal communication will require supplemental material.
It does not possess the same degree of ambiguity as English. When there are ambiguities, it is usually the fault of the author; the semantic relationship between words is well established.
I've met very few who prefer the natural method, as you call it. In truth, spoken Latin and literary Latin aren't even the same language, much in the same way the average English speaker cannot comprehend an academic article. Most students will never grasp Cicero intuitively, even if given a decade to do so.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Fortasse idem mundus ā nōbīs nōn habitātur. Paucōs, quī describere partēs orationis grammaticamque malunt, repperī. At sententia tua dē differentiā inter verba locuta et scripta bene inter nōs convenit. Certe, necesse nōn est impendere tantās horās si convertis grammaticam quam si cupis intellegere Latīne per sē, sed lingua Hispanica fuit prīma lingua mea, ergo difficilius mihi vidētur convertere. Quam ob rem convertere debeō "Credō in Ūnum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem..." si illa oratio tam similis est ut versio Hispanica? (Fateor Ciceronem esse difficilior quam precēs, et ego ipse grammaticae studeō si sententia ā mē nōn intellegitur.)
@@IlleMagister What percentage of high school students become fluent in foreign language? It's less than 1%. Natural language learning is almost always a failure. That's why I teach grammar. I may succeed in teaching grammar, but spoken language requires full immersion which the classroom model cannot provide.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Recte dīcis, sed gradōs kinder per octavum doceō... dubitō kindergartenorēs cupere scientiam cāsūs nec coniuagtionum verbōrum. Nōnne oportet eīs prīmum discere verba imperatīva tum movēre corpora sua? Num decet kindergartenorēs discere obiecta directa et subiecta?
@@IlleMagister If you could reproduce the conditions of early language development, then yes. But by high school students are thinking actively about language and will demand to know why Puer sometimes appears as Puerum. They become frustrated with what they perceive as inconsistency.
Yes, I teach from Cambridge. I have a comparison video: Cambridge vs. Ecce Romani elsewhere on this channel you may check out. I think Cambridge is less impressive than Ecce, but to each their own.
Antiquated? Not based on recent theories? No supporters in academia? Wow, it might actually be useful!
Well said!
Thank you for this useful review, I just ordered it on Amazon 😊
It's not just public education, it's education in the US in general.
No it's not
@@therealcoleshowI work at a highly ranked liberal arts college. From what I seen over the last couple of decades, you are wrong---DEAD WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It’s the same with education in every country. There has been a pervasive ideology of simplicity that is obsessed with eradicating foundations of education that a young scholar requires. There is no point reading complex literature without the basics of grammar.
@@Art-is-craft I'm happy you know about every country's education systems. It must be a life-long endeavor.
@@tzerpa9446
The educational philosophies of every major education system are available as are their economic and military.
Good to hear a positive point of view!
I have both Wheelock's and LLPSI and I've decided to start with Wheelock's after watching your review. It does require a decent amount of grammar knowledge but I do like to understand everything through and through when I'm learning it.
And I think you are spot on about not guessing anything regarding Latin. The language is highly inflected which is worldly different than English. This means a slight difference in declension or conjugation will convey entirely different meanings. Guessing will only worsen this situation. Thank you.
You have summarized my own position very well. I have a copy of LLPSI myself, and while I think a careful student could learn from it, there are many pitfalls that are hard to avoid without a proactive teacher. Wheelock's served me well; Henle's Latin is another solid choice. Good luck in your studies.
@@Catholic-Perennialist I'm self-learning at the moment. No tutor available whatsoever. Is Wheelock's and its exercises sufficient on its own? I'm not sure about the workbook though. Is it a must buy if I'm going to stick with Wheelock's?
I started learning Latin by William E. Linney's book Getting Started with Latin (according to me this the best Latin book for absolute beginners) and now I'm using LLPSI. Currently I'm on the chapter 10.
LLPSI is a more advanced form that would not work for many self learners.
@@Art-is-craft Do you think an absolute beginner (who doesn't know how an inflected language like Latin works) can understand LLPSI without any knowledge of Latin ?
@@Aditya-te7oo
Yes they can grasp it through LLPSI and accompanying sources. But most people cannot do it on a casual basis. Starting with a simple foundation such as Gwynne’s Latin and then moving on to more complex sources is far more effective. Also listen to fluent Latin speakers helps.
@@Art-is-craft I don't think an absolute beginner can understand LLPSI without any knowledge of Latin. He will just guess. And guessing doesn't work in Latin. For understanding a Latin sentence one has to know the verb conjugations and noun-pronoun-adjective declensions. Otherwise he won't understand.
I have seen this book and its workbook in book stores YEARS ago, and the gramnar scared me!
I found the Form Series from Memoria Press, and although its made for 4th or 5th grade students, they do not slack in the amountvof work expected of the student! They make sure you know the grammar via flashcarda, grammar questions, recitation and "Drill Forms" ( badicaly Tables you have to conjugate, parse, and decline verbs, nouns etc.
I can spend easily an hour on Latin studies, filling out verb tables, doing workbook pages, going through recitations, etc.
I am mot reading full Latin as I am still in week 3 of my studies in First Form, but I can conjugation nearly 30 verbs in the Present tense System, 1st conj (-are), and I can recognize vocab words in my Latin songs and chants I sing even if I dont understand the endings.
I hate "parsing", but I can see why it is done!
Maybe after the Form Series I will continue with Wheetlocks.
Great review fella! Helped me in my decision to buy the book and finally learn Latin :)
Same here, great review.
Great review! I have been debating for ages whether to learn Latin or not. I finally gave in and purchased a used copy of this book as well as the Henle grammar and first year book. I'm excited!
Get a copy of a Latin Vulgate as well. The New Testament is one of the easiest texts you'll encounter. It's a great learning tool. Don't get discouraged. There's so many online resources now.
Thank you so much!
Excellent review! I'm really excited to have my own copy of Wheelock's latin!
Luckly, here in Brazil, we have some of these previous grammar knowledge, cuz otherwise we couldn't really learn/speak portuguese, a language that demands grammar in everyday practice.
I want to thank you for your review and breakdown/synopsis of the Wheelock Latin textbook. I decided to check back in on TH-cam and see if anyone had posted a review because as you stated there aren't really any reviews of Wheelocks Latin.
Reading J.P.Mallory's _In Search of the Indo-Europeans_ and several penguin classics publications got me interested in studying a Indo-European language, and I have decided to give Latin a try, mostly because I'm interested in Roman history.
Unfortunately, my grammar knowledge is not up to par with what I guess the text requires.
I took English courses all the way through highschool public education except for my Senior year if I remember correctly, and I can assure you I didn't learn a damn thing!
I know you recommended familiarizing oneself with English grammar terms and concepts, but my question is could these things be learned on my own without needing to take a class on English grammar?
Any advice?
I can tell you that when I began studying Latin I was more than a decade removed from any formal schooling and likewise had not learned much grammar. I had to begin with the basics which meant, at a minimum, understanding the terminology common to both English and Latin. You should understand the eight parts of speech, the functions of a noun, the tenses of a verb, etc.
When you approach Latin, you should begin by drilling yourself in basic subject-verb conjugation patterns. This coupled with the function of each noun case will get you started. It is important to not progress faster than your comprehension of terminology will allow; otherwise you will not understand the grammar lessons in each chapter.
I have been meaning to upload begginer's lessons for Latin, but I do not have the equipment to do this well. My students progress through the language differently than most because we do not practice much rote memorization or utilize vocab lists. Learning is facilitated by constant reference to examples drawn from Latin texts and constant practice using the Latin Dictionary. My students can function equally well no matter the curriculum, whereas some programs force the student to become dependent on a particular brand. My method is a modified form of the Foster method, but I developed it independently.
i feel lucky since in high school i was taught what a case is what preposition(post position is) cause of my native language hindi and then sanskrit
which carried onto english even the aspect. be the infinative
Ive been using the Henle text and I like it better. I think its easier to remember long term cause you do so many exercises. I also like how its more gradual so you remember the grammar more naturally.
I own that text as well and have used it sparingly. I like the Catholic content, but I could never get away with untroducing such content into a public school classroom. I agree, it has many more exercises while still not deviating much from a grammar-translation approach.
Man I came across this review of the text years ago, and I’m about to pick Wheelock up again and start digging into it, while simultaneously learning Irish and playing around with other text I’ve bought on various Indo-European languages such Greek, Sanskrit and Hittite, plus I’m somewhat of a Roman history enthusiast…
I have no idea
Mīlle Gratias
@@In-Gall_Tegidda_n_Tesemt I get it. I read 3-4 books at a time while I farm, brew beer and rebuild engines. Hard to focus, but I'm never bored
Question,
Can anyone provide some helpful hints on how I can use this text as a supplement to the Lingua Latina text? My goal is to learn how to speak Latin conversationally but also to be competent in my grammar. In other words, to be able to move around in Latin freely like I do with English. I have access to both texts so I would like to exhaust these resources.
Thanks
I would start with the grammar text and then, once the paradigms are mastered, move on to the reading text.
The other way around just ruins fluency.
Thanks a lot@@Catholic-Perennialist
Great review. I’ve been using Kennedy’s Latin primer. I’m using it in conjunction with online tutorials and I’ve recognized there’s some pronunciation problems in Kennedy’s primer particularly with some vowels. Do you have any thoughts on Kennedy’s and if so would you recommend using wheelocks to supplement with or to study afterwards on its own? Thanks for any input. Appreciate it.
Kennedy is old school and a little different due to it being a British text. I've never gotten hung up on pronunciation because it varied greatly amongst even the native speakers. I prefer Wheelock's to Kennedy on the basis of organization and usability, however, many of the world's great latinists were brought up on the older text.
I recommend Wheelock's in conjunction with the 38 latin stories addendum and then the Vulgate to set your teeth in some authentic beginner Latin.
@@Catholic-Perennialist thanks a lot. I will be purchasing it in the near future.
Thank you for the review. Do you have any resources on Classical pronounciation? I'm using Henle Latin and it's working fairly well... I feel like I need more help though and Wheelock's may fill that need.
The internet is the best source. The only rules that I can give you in a brief post is that C is always hard, and V is pronounced as a W. The stress of each syllable will depend on the number of syllables in the word and is sometimes affected by the case/or tense.
I think Italian Latin speakers are the best to follow. Especially those that are deeply aware of the difference between Ecclesiastical Latin and Classical. And how their own native Italian tongue relates to that. It means they can clearly differentiate pronunciation. I find some of the western Latin speakers who trained through books have not gone deep into pronunciation and their abilities are better in terms of teaching the structured form of Latin.
Gwynne's Latin is a great starting point as well
Hello. Thanks for the answer. Please tell me why you use the term "guess"? For example, in the book LLPSI, on which Hans H. Orberg worked all his life and thought through every detail, children use the method of induction, knowledge of language and grammar from the particular to the general, which is confirmed by practical positive learning outcomes and consistent with Stephen Krashen's hypothesis. What do you think about this?
By Latin 3, the constructs become so complex that a child's intuition is no longer sufficient to the task.
A student who is accustomed to paying heed to inflection can work his way through a text; those brought up on Orberg's method resort to educated guessing.
I've seen it too often.
@@Catholic-Perennialist , Thanks.
Can you suggest a similar book for ancient greek
Sorry. I'm unsure of an equivalent for ancient Greek, although I would be more confident concerning koine Greek. In any case, studying Greek is made much easier by studying Latin first.
It's an excellent work.
Glad you think so!
I used Wheelock's for 3 semesters in college Latin. My 4th semester we read the Aeneid. Of course after about 25 years I don't remember much. I'd like to get refreshed. Maybe I'll break out my old Wheelock's. Now my daughter is learning Latin in 6th grade (!)
Did you use the respective workbook? If so, did you find it essential or at least helpful in the learning process?
I did not use a workbook. My professor made assignments based on the text from scratch. The exercises in the book are more than enough to learn the material, in my opinion. In teaching, I do use the book titled "38 Latin Stories" as supplemental material. It is based on the content, vocab, and pacing of Wheelock's. I will do a review on that text in the future.
Looking forward to that review.
Wonder what some good grammar books I could pair with this. My lack of grammar knowledge is definitely killing me on this one
You may not need grammar "books" per se. You may only need to brush up on basic grammar terminology.
Know the 8 parts of speech, and be able to explain the function of each Latin Case. I have a video on this channel about that very subject.
Wheelock's is very explicit in its grammar instruction, but the terminology must be deciphered to benefit from it.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Ah thank you for the advise. I will watch the video. I've got wheelocks latin and Hans orbergs books I plan to go through.
Excellent review 🤙🏽
Do you have any experience with "A Primer for Ecclesiastical Latin"? I'm undecided between purchasing Wheelock's or the above mentioned book. I'm mainly interested in Catholic writings, but would like to read some of the classics as well. Thanks!
No, I don't. But I am familiar with Henle's Latin, which is a Catholic text.
Wheelock's is so cheap, it wouldn't be a bad idea to buy the ecclesiastical text and pick up a used copy of Wheelock's just to compare.
I find the ecclesiastical pronunciation to be more beautiful than classical, but more difficult to master. A start in ecclesiastical Latin should make a transition into classical at a later date relatively easy.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Thanks for your help! I will look into buying the Ecclesiastical text first and then buying Wheelock’s to compare. God bless!
1 month later and I'm about to finish CAPVT XV. Very satisfying and rewarding experience so far. I use LLPSI and 38 Latin Stories alongside for more sources of fun/facile reading material. But I do sometimes have trouble telling adjectives from nouns as they often share the same endings and tend to decline in the same manner. Any advice on this issue?
The difficulty also lies in the fact that adjectives sometimes act as nouns; they're called "substantives." The only sure way of determining between noun and adjective is to memorize the vocab thoroughly and to pay close artention to context.
@@Catholic-Perennialist The substantives are not that difficult to tell as it usually stands alone as a subject or object. There's one instance I went way off when reading the SENTENTIAE ANTIQVAE of CAPVT XIII. "Nihil corpus humanum conservare potest". I mistook humanum as the dir object of conservare where it instead is an adjective modifying corpus.
It's what they use at UNLV so I'm assuming that it has good value!
Wheelock may be more thorough, but god how is it tedious! I for one loved the Cambridge series. No, when you are finished you are not able to read Cicero nor the more difficult passages from neither Caesar or Nepos, but it is way more entertaining. I absolutely loved the stories and the narrative.
Thanks for commenting. I can't say I disagree with your assessment, but I am wondering at what grades you took your Latin classes and how long ago. It seems to me that it is much harder to engage students, even with Cambridge, since the advent of the smart phone.
I think that you are absolutely right. In Denmark the interest in Latin and Greek is extremely small. It is neither useful nor profitable in Denmark... That said, I study Latin and Greek in a university in Denmark in my third year. Haha. Still now, a fairly advanced reader in both, I can not recommend Wheelocks. I acknowlegde that youths know shit (and they will probably never learn it unless they actually find it interesting) about subjunctive, subordinate clauses, case and syntax. So the Latin must be as easy and less grammar heavy as possible. And in my opinion both Oxford and Cambridge does that better than Wheelock. They are more dumped down, if I may say so... But I am 24 so my age could help indicate that younger people find Wheelocks more challenging/tedious/heavy :)
@@silaskristensen5798 Yes. I currently use Cambridge, but even this proves to be too hard and fast paced for many students. In my opinion, Latin is something that you have to want to learn to do well in; it cannot be passively imbibed simply by sitting in a classroom.
I don't find Wheelock's tedious at all. It started off very difficult indeed, but it gives me a feel of accomplishment after each chapter like no others, especially when you begin translating English sentences into Latin. Plus Wheelock did an amazing job carefully selecting texts, adapting poems for you to work on while requiring you to fully utilize what you have learned in current and previous chapters.
Hello. Thank you. There is an opinion that LLPSI teaches you to speak and think in Latin, and the study of Wheelock's Latin will make you a translator but will not teach you to read, think and speak. What do you think about this?
I've never been convinced of that. All of the students I've ever encountered who used the natural or inductive method were only good guessers whose abilities were never keen enough to make them fluent.
Hi. Thank you for this video. Can you tell me/us if this book contains an answer key to the exercises posed in each chapter? If so, is it a full key, or does it only show answers for select questions (as some mathematic texts do, to my frustration).
Answer keys are available in the form of teacher's guides, but these are sold separately.
Pretty much every exercise has also been done online, which you can check for free. Quizlet is good for this.
Excellent review :)
I hope it's not too much for me to learn Latin and Greek at the same time.
I would study Latin first, then Greek. Greek is relatively easy after Latin. Both simultaneously should only be attempted when the constraints of time require it.
While I disagree that Greek is ‘relatively easy’ after Latin, I strongly agree that study of Latin should precede study of Greek.
For straight grammar-translation texts that are still in print, I think Moreland & Fleischer beats Wheelock. Yes, the chapters are too long. But in every other way, it's superior. The material is clearly explained. From the first chapter, you get a passage to read. By the end, your reading substantial passages of unadapted latin. One of the best traits is how the vocabulary is listed in uniform columns. This allows the learner to quickly self test on vocabulary by covering the column with a card. Answer keys are also easier to obtain for the autodidact.
It’s good but difficult for me
It can be difficult without a teacher. I had a good latin professor who helped me tremendously.
There are different ways to teach language. Two include the blam! between the eyes of upfront grammar instruction, like Wheelock, or the incremental baby steps method, more like LLPSE. I do not learn well from the former style. This is a key to learning something like a language. Students need to find which system works for them. Trying to follow a course instruction methodology that makes no sense to you is a fools errand.
I started off with this text because I knew no better. It appears to be popular in university courses. While it does teach you grammar, it does not really give you any feel for the language. The isolated, out of context sentencs, often make no sense because the context is lost. Not only that, but most of the sentences for translation are dull. Far better would be reading passages. After spending many hours on the Internet, I eventually discovered 'Familia Romana', which is a far better approach to learning Latin. That said, certain things just have to be learned by rote, preferably in advance (see the Ranieri method). The Ranieri method advocates learning the declensions of nouns, adjectives, and adverbs, and the conjugations of the verbs before even starting. This is a heavy task and you need to be a truly committed student to even undertake this. However, the benefits are huge. Having this core under your belt makes learning the language so much easier; because you will immediately recognize what role a noun or verb is playing in a sentence.
So, while Wheelock gives you a grammatical grounding, it does not provide you with any real intuitive understanding of the language, Yes, you can translate a sentence, but can you formulate your own original ones? I think not! You need external readers to inculcate your brain with a natural understanding of the language.
So, I'm not totaly discounting Wheelock with its boring sentences entirely, but you cannot rely on this text alone to teach you Latin; for , if you do, you may never truly master the language.
It's really only supposed to carry the student through Latin 2; and your are correct, using the language for verbal communication will require supplemental material.
Latin is a language without ambiguities? did you actually say that?
It does not possess the same degree of ambiguity as English. When there are ambiguities, it is usually the fault of the author; the semantic relationship between words is well established.
Dēscribere partēs orationis et convertere placuērunt mihi numquam. Discere lente per μεθοδόν naturalem malō. Tamen, cognoscō multōs quī contvertere grammaticamque malunt.
I've met very few who prefer the natural method, as you call it.
In truth, spoken Latin and literary Latin aren't even the same language, much in the same way the average English speaker cannot comprehend an academic article.
Most students will never grasp Cicero intuitively, even if given a decade to do so.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Fortasse idem mundus ā nōbīs nōn habitātur. Paucōs, quī describere partēs orationis grammaticamque malunt, repperī. At sententia tua dē differentiā inter verba locuta et scripta bene inter nōs convenit. Certe, necesse nōn est impendere tantās horās si convertis grammaticam quam si cupis intellegere Latīne per sē, sed lingua Hispanica fuit prīma lingua mea, ergo difficilius mihi vidētur convertere. Quam ob rem convertere debeō "Credō in Ūnum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem..." si illa oratio tam similis est ut versio Hispanica? (Fateor Ciceronem esse difficilior quam precēs, et ego ipse grammaticae studeō si sententia ā mē nōn intellegitur.)
@@IlleMagister What percentage of high school students become fluent in foreign language?
It's less than 1%.
Natural language learning is almost always a failure. That's why I teach grammar. I may succeed in teaching grammar, but spoken language requires full immersion which the classroom model cannot provide.
@@Catholic-Perennialist Recte dīcis, sed gradōs kinder per octavum doceō... dubitō kindergartenorēs cupere scientiam cāsūs nec coniuagtionum verbōrum. Nōnne oportet eīs prīmum discere verba imperatīva tum movēre corpora sua? Num decet kindergartenorēs discere obiecta directa et subiecta?
@@IlleMagister If you could reproduce the conditions of early language development, then yes.
But by high school students are thinking actively about language and will demand to know why Puer sometimes appears as Puerum. They become frustrated with what they perceive as inconsistency.
Its a bit of a crummy book, the exercises are bland and unimpressive. Try Cambridge latin. Much better
Yes, I teach from Cambridge. I have a comparison video: Cambridge vs. Ecce Romani elsewhere on this channel you may check out. I think Cambridge is less impressive than Ecce, but to each their own.
@@Catholic-Perennialist thanks for your reply. I value your insight.
@@carlnikolov I meant to say Cambridge is less impressive than Ecce. Not sure what happened. Anyway, thanks for the kind words.