ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2023
- Recently I've been thinking about the length of Mega Man games. There's like a bajillion of them so no way are they all just "8 stages and then a castle"? Then I realized "oh wait, very few Mega Man games are just 8 robot masters and then a castle". So here I am making a video about that. Plus I felt like replaying the classic and X games. Though I ended up only talking about the classic Mega Man games.
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Okay. I know at the end I SAY next is a "requested video" but actually between the time I voiced and finished this video a game I was hyped for came out so that first...
I wanted to add a comment but it's on 69, so I'll leave a reply. Love your work.
There's actually a little bit of hidden tech with Wily Capsule 7. If you hit him with the Thunder Bolt when he pops in, the elemental balls won't come out and he'll just skip to shocking the floor. This is pretty useful since depending on where you're at relative to him, it can be even harder to dodge those balls.
"I specified 'console entries' because I am not replaying Megaman & Bass"
Bad news, Rockman and Forte WAS originally a console game (Super Famicom), albeit a Japanese-exclusive one. The GBA version is a port (or maybe a remake? I'm not entirely sure)
Of course, you also specified "numbered" entries, and Megaman & Bass is most definitely not that :P
Both words were used to make sure I didn't have to replay MM&B tbh😂. I really didn't wanna replay that one, and it was easier to excuse than X6&X7 since those were numbered (even though I ended up not talking about those in this video. But hey, I have X6 footage for the future)
Never touched the classic series yet (though I got the Legacy Collection on 3DS before it died), but this was an interesting video on a topic I never really thought off.
Yeah, I've heard horror stories of Wily Capsule 7 from the other stuff I follow. I can feel the struggle with Nova having to deal with that.
22:06-22:09 Ah yes! Jojo age logic!
Like I said in the video, they're pretty short. Probably longer for you then me since it'd be your first go. All 8 8-bit entries are nice little popcorn games for me at this point since none ever take longer than 2 hours. If you want to use a real controller instead of a handheld version, every legacy collection release goes on sale very frequently.
Wily 7 is also a lot more manageable with the save states in the Legacy Collections, so for a first time play I wouldn't blame your for using it there. For the sake of this video I didn't but on a casual run I'll even do that.
@@NovaZoneTV Alright. Thanks for the advice!
A very fun video about one of my favourite series, and touches on many points I've thought about myself but never properly refined. Keep up the great work, and have a lovely day.
Sad to hear that MM&B wasn't included.
For x6, just embrace the jank and glitches. you'll have such a better time with it. zero in particular is super broken.
it went from a game i felt meh about, to one of my favorites to play through.
i love to see mega man content like this!! very interesting analysis on a topic i have thought about in the past, but i've never come to a firm opinion on.
one of my favorite things about the classic series is diversity in playthroughs, so it's always been sort of puzzling to me to think about what is the best level structure.
honestly that could be a video all on its own- the difference between going with 4 bosses, 4 bosses, fortress, or going 8 bosses then fortress, or... uh, whatever mega man & bass had going on??
This is a very neat and interesting video here dude. Honestly, I’d love to see a follow up video with how game length goes for the X and Zero games. (I’m sure X8 alone is going to be fun to talk about :p)
Oh god, this video was twice as long when I wrote an X5 & half of an X6 portion, so when I thought about X8 I just decided "yeah, X is clearly is a whole new subject for another time".
There’s a perfectly good explanation for why Zelda II was how it was. It was a Dragon Slayer clone. And guess what Dragon Slayer 2 did? Yeah, pretty much explains it all. Also Dragon Slayer is the main reason why Final Fantasy is an anthology series instead of direct sequels like Wizardry or Dragon Quest. Dragon Slayer also has an entry called Legend of Heroes. Yeah I’m one of those nerds who look for inception points for every genre.
Yeah, sounds like the length of the X serie games is a topic for it's own separate video.
great video man i liked it a lot! :)
I think the Doc Robot stages are some of the best and part of why I like Mega Man 3 so much. I'd like to return to ruined, harder versions of all eight stages before the castle.
I do hope they experiment again with with having more stages in future mega man games
increasing game length with more stages rather than longer stages is just more variety and more fun
This is something I've been thinking about a bit, as the short length and small number of stages in the main story tends to be one of the main strikes against these games.
I think the best way for future mega man games to extend their length would probably be the Mario kart DS method, AKA retro stages. Bringing in 8 returning robot masters in addition to the new ones, as well as remixing/remaking their stages and weapons would be really cool while also having a clear separation to avoid potential confusion. Plus 11's double gear system is the perfect excuse to give us a bunch of rematches, which we're already seen a taste of with 11's Yellow Devil fight.
That'd be cool. Mega Man 10 kinda did that with the game boy bosses. Amazed I forgot to bring that and 10's multiple characters up in the video. Maybe I was considering that separate when writing?
Personally, the games not being all that long is part of the appeal for me. They don't overstay their welcome and are a nice little experience that I can knock out in a sitting or two at a time. A whole 8 additional robot masters just sounds like a really, really tedious amount of padding that could quickly lead to burnout.
Personally, I think there's three things that work really well for padding the games out for those who want it while keeping the game nice and short for those who don't:
1. Skippable cutscenes. Putting a little bit more of an extra emphasis on story for those who enjoy it can bump up those playtimes a bit by having players spending more time reading text boxes.
2. Intro and mid stages. Introduce new players the basics of how to play the game in a mandatory tutorial level that can generally be breezed through by experienced players. Then, after you've defeated your fourth Robot Master, introduce a special mid stage that introduces a change of pace and has its own unique midboss and end of stage boss. Bonus points if there's extra non-intrusive replayability here through different interactions with boss powers. For instance, the two boss fights here could have multiple good working strategies to defeat them by using different boss powers, and different boss powers could provide alternative means of progressing through the stage itself and even grant access to shortcut pathways.
3. Multiple playable characters, each with their own story cutscenes. Alternative playstyles bump up replay value a lot on their own. Adding in unique story content for each one with the option to skip cutscenes also helps to pad out playtime for those who want it just as in point 1. I'd say that at this point Protoman and Bass should just be standard options unlocked from the start, and maybe Roll included as an option too with her broom for a melee playstyle choice. An additional benefit to multiple playable characters is that they could feature completely different strategies to beat the bosses, and even have different boss weaknesses and orders from each other. Lots of clever ways here to extend that playtime for those looking for longer experiences without forcing it on those who want to zip right through.
@@Crow_Rising Just a slightly related thing: Have you played Mighty Gunvolt Burst? When it comes to extra playable characters, that game implements them really well into a Mega Man type system. All 9 characters normal attack is a little different, and they each get a unique mobility option.
It has some other pacing issues in the form of overly complex customization that bog down the pacing for me, but that becomes less of an issue on replays since you can replay stages whenever you want, which classic MM is always on and off about.
@@NovaZoneTV Yeah. I overall enjoyed MGB, though some of the characters are really overpowered and while the upgrade system was neat it's not really something I think an actual Mega Man game should have. I'd be plenty content with just Mega Man, Roll, Proto Man, and Bass playable with their common movesets. (Powered Up/Mega Man Maker playstyle for Roll)
That being said, Inti-Creates have basically been crying out with desperation to make new Mega Man series games for the past decade, looking at their catalogue. Most of the games they've made either take direct inspiration from Zero/ZX, or Mega Man Classic, all of which being series Inti worked on in the past. Considering the relative drought the Mega Man fanbase has been dealing with since MM11, it would be nice if Capcom could license out a few new projects to them. Maybe let them make a new ZX game while Capcom Japan makes a new Classic series game in-house and Capcom Taiwan makes X9 following the success of X DiVE Offline.
_Bringing in 8 returning robot masters in addition to the new ones_
They did that already with Megaman 3's Doc Robots.
You must be really good at these games. Mega Man kicked my tail hard
I watched it and I loved it even if you say noone did
Oh cool
Psst. You can just hop repeatedly on top off the spinny things in Tornado Man's level. Save those frames! ;p
19:10 I had no idea 10 came after 11 the more you know
Inti Creates made the game in 2020 and brought it back 10 years in time.
@@NovaZoneTV considering it talks about a virus maybe
The fact that Mega Man 1 and Mega Man X1 did the boss rematch concept really well, I hate that every subsequent game aside from the Zero games really leaned into the "Room with Teleporters" gimmick.
Like getting a whole level dedicated to a boss rush isn't the problem. It's just done in the most uninteresting way possible.
Capsule 7 really isn't that hard imo. I get that it's punishing for beginners and all, but it's incredibly consistent and becomes way easier once you know what to do. When so many other bosses are often at least slightly random, having a boss that is purely about consistent dodging is almost relaxing, especially compared to say, Quick Man. As for how Mega Man games deal with longevity, I think X5-X6 did it the best with heavy focus on the parts system and routing variety, allowing for nigh infinite replays as there's no true essential best order while still having a heavy focus on routing, though X6 did it better by not forcing you to do a satanic ritual just to get parts. It doesn't increase the length of a playthrough, but instead encourages replayability and makes for a far more interesting game in the long run. I don't think the classic series really managed to replicate that - the closest is MM&B due to having a similar thing to the parts system, but that game can be very rigid in stage order due to not allowing you to visit all stages at the start, instead locking them in a sort-of-route. Good editing in the video btw, I really like the smooth cutoffs to what I assume are scans of some Mega Man manga (I don't know enough about those to tell which).
"Thankfully, Megaman never Zelda II'd us"
Well, actually, Megaman DID make a sequel that departed significantly from the formula. Twice, in fact. But they were nice enough to make those unrelated spin-offs, connected to the main series only by name. Also they were, you know, really good.
I am referring to Megaman Legends and Megaman Battle Network, in case the reader didn't already figure that out :)
You are right about Megaman Battle Network, but as far as I remember, Megaman Legends is part of the main continuity that started way back at the Megaman Classic series.
It goes something like this: Classic, X, Zero, ZX, Legends.
Battle Network is another universe completely, and it is followed by Star Force.
@@Koleuz2 I'm aware of Legends as being in the far-distant future of the rest of that list, but I'm not sure if that's official canon, or just a fan-theory. I don't think it was originally intended at the time Legends was first developed. Even if it was, there's enough of a separation in time that it can easily be treated as though it were an alternate universe, like Battle Network/Star Force.
Contrast Castlevania 2 and Zelda 2, each of which was a direct sequel to its corresponding original, starring the same main character in a quest to make sure the first game's main villain stays dead
At least give Legends and BN this. They’re still very loved unlike Zelda II
@@EmperorDoddIt's official. The length of time in-universe is roughly 5000 years after ZX.
As a matter of fact, Classic to X is 100 years, X to Zero is also 100 years, and Zero to ZX is another 100 years.
There's the alternate timeline that has MMX Command Mission and stops there since it takes place in 22XX which would have been Zero era in the main timeline.
There's also the future Quint was taken from that comes back in Challenger from the Future which probably is canon since two of the robot masters are referenced in ZX Advent (if I remember right).
As for Battle Network to Star Force, it's roughly 200 years.
There's also the other alternate reality of Pachislot Rockman.
The only games that I think aren't canon at all are the Taiwanese tactical RPG one, X (Cross) Over and X Dive. Possibly Pachislot Rockman too, but I kind of like the redesigns.
They've gone back and forth on if X to Zero is 1 or 2 hundred years and kinda the same for Zero to ZX. But the basic large time skip point still stands of "any human and almost every reploid around back then is dead". And then with Legends "no one remembers anything from a previous game"
My head canon is that X8 is more in the late 21XXs since the jump from X6 to X7 is left vague, the Zero series takes place early 23XX, and ZX is mid 24XX. Mainly because the Sage Trinity have clearly been in power for a while, yet aren't mentioned at all in Zero. Or ZX1 because obviously they just weren't made yet, but if I'm making head cannons then I'm gonna just have fun with it.
FYI, Castlevania 2, Zelda 2, and Super Mario 2 were all highly regarded and popular games when first released
Then why did each of these games go back to the original formula?
@@thomasffrench3639 Actually Castlevania series eventually migrated towards the Castlevania 2 formula and the 3D games copied much of the Super Mario 2 formula
While it doesn't forgive Capcom for releasing it, Mega Man 3 was notoriously rushed, which accounts for many issues people have with the game. The devs didn't have the time to even create something like MM2's fancy intro animation, but they needed *something* to make MM3 not look inferior to MM2. They made graphics for a single new enemy, copied the boss code from MM2, and did some quick alterations to existing MM3 stages to house them, and thus the Doc Robot stages were created.
Lol but &Bass was a console entry
I get not being up for that one though
The timing on those platforms in Tornado Man's stage isn't as tight as you think; as long as Mega Man's sprite is above the axis he's rotating on he'll still jump off the top. Additionally, if you jump right off after landing you can just hop on top of them without being spun under, long as ya mind the spikes too
Def cool to see an overall rundown of classic from a content/length angle though thank you
21:45 rip anniversary collection players
I think they should take a page from Shovel Knight, and make some small levels and put the hidden items here instead of the main stage.
Another thing about mm3, i hate how proto mans stage is just the same fight you already did, either give him a real stage, or a real fight
@20:23, I have been playing through the MM games and I have gotten up to 7 so far. I dislike it's controls. It feels like Mega Man is walking through sand. Like someone forgot how to make responsive snappy controls.
1:57 Oh man, this robot master order is dumb. Metal Man is not really the first to beat when you play on normal (not easy - dubbed "normal" in western countries). Also Wood Man is not fought best with Metal Blades when you play on normal (not easy mode). Wood Man's weakness order goes like this:
- 1. Atomic Fire: play on normal difficulty (the only difficulty in Japan) and he takes two hits from fully charged Atomic Fire
- 2. Air Shooter: Yes, that weapon! When positioned in the right distance you can shoot with that weapon through the shield and deal four hitpoints of damage
- 3. Crash Bomb: You need to hit the shield when Wood Man is about to throw it in your direction. Precision timing is needed but you can deal multiple hits of damage to him
- 4. Metal Blade: it could be on third position since Crash Bomb is tough to use. But since the damage been dealt has priority here Metal Blade ranks forth. It deals only one hitpoint of damage when you play on normal (not on western normal).
In the grand scheme of things Metal Blade is great against three Robot Masters and Wily Machine 1 and 2 (for those because you can shoot diagonally). Those three dudes are Flash Man (when timed well Crash Bomb might do a better job but Metal Blade is easy to use here), Bubble Man (Metal Blade is his main weakness anyway) and Metal Man himself.
The rest is history as other weapons can deal more damage or provide a bigger attack field compared to Metal Blades. It does have its use but overall is rubbish.
I don't think there is a "best order" for any mega man game. For example, In mega man 1, the order a lot of people do is either starting with guts man or bomb man and then going by weakness order. However, what I think is the best order for mega man 1 is fire man first (his weapon is seriously underrated. It's as good as the elec beam in my opinion. Plus fire man's stage and bossfight are very easy and weapons don't come in useful very often there), then do guts man just so that I can get magnet beam. I do know about the early magnet beam glitch, but fire storm is really the only useful weapon in guts man's stage anyway. Then I do elec man, then I go for ice man beacause his weapon is far better than rolling cutter and hyper bomb (rolling cutter is just a worse fire storm/elec beam honestly). Then cut man, then bomb man. That is my order, but some players might want to... use ice slasher and/or elec beam in fire man's stage maybe?
Nice video
Mega man 2 has come to ruin your day.
On a more serious note, 2 kind of has Wood Man to start with if you don't want to miss collectibles while still going in boss order, but still, have you ever seen anybody not start with metal man?
One thing I find consistent is that the two most popular robot masters to start with are almost always next to each other in the weakness loop.
In MM3, both Hard man and Top man are decent starts
In MM4, Toad man and Pharaoh man I see as the most popular starts
In MM5, I really only see Star man as being the first robot master to be beaten
In MM6, it is almost always Wind man, though it's just to make Flame man easier and faster, so if you dont mind Flame man's boss fight, starting with Flame man can be an option too.
Either way, I find that MM1 is the exception since it's robot masters are exceptionally easy without their weakness (except elec man, elec man is probably the most unfair boss fight in the entire series). Bomb man and Cut man always seem to jump over you, Guts man is just easy, Fire man can be spammed to death, and Ice man just needs a few accurate jumps. Because of this, starting with any of those robot masters will be normal to some degree. Except Elec man. I dont know anybody who wants to go through that pain.
@@No-vy4jp Here's my orders for every classic game:
1. Fire, Guts, Elec, Ice, Cut, Bomb
2. Quick, Flash, Heat, Wood, Air, Bubble, Crash, Metal
3. Snake, Gemini, Needle, Shadow, Magnet, Spark, Hard, Top.
4. Bright, Toad, Ring, Skull, Dive, Pharaoh, Drill, Dust (although in this game I change my boss order a lot)
5. Star, Gyro, Charge, Gravity, Stone, Wave, Napalm, Crystal
6. I usually start with Flame, then do Plant and then do whatever order
7. Freeze, Cloud, Burst, Junk, Turbo, Slash, Spring, Shade.
8. Frost, Grenade, Tengu, Clown (I sometimes swap Clown and Tengu), Search, Astro, Aqua, Sword
9. Splash, Galaxy, Concrete, Jewel, Hornet, Tornado, Magma, Plug.
10. Nitro, Sheep, Pump, Commando, Blade, Chill, Solar, Strike
I do sometimes try out different boss orders. One of the best parts of mega man games is that you can ne creative with your routes and improve on routes you already created (for example, in 4 I used to do Toad before Bright, in 8 I used to do Grenade before Frost).
@@No-vy4jp Also, elec man's stage without a spine-killing weapon is way more of a pain than buster only elec man. Honestly elec man is one of the easiest bosses in the series.
There's some orders in there I'd find crazy to try but if that's how you have fun then go for it. I guess I could've said it better but typically when I say "best" or "optimal" order I mainly me "for you". Since that's the fun of Mega Man. There's very few times when something just straight up ruins your run i.e. Elec Man before Guts Man.
@@NovaZoneTV the early magnet beam glitch exists though if you want to do elec man before guts man
I have been thinking for a while that you could get 8 robot masters into 16 stages, and the story would benefit from it. Pair off each robot master, and have an intro stage for each pair, where you meet them and establish some story context. Then you can fight the 2 in either order, gaining their weapons, or go fight a different intro stage. Once you beat both of the bosses, there is a final stage where their stage gimmicks are mixed, and their weapons are required for progression. At the end, you have to fight both robot masters at the same time, resolving their 1/4th of the overall story.
That would be a kinda neat idea. At least for 1 game. Then the bosses would have personality from something other than extended media. I can still only view Guts Man and Cut Man as their Ruby Spears incarnation 🤣
Great video and an interesting topic.
For me it is all about the execution but my preference lies in with how 9 and 10 handheld it for CLASSIC series. Just give me 8 stages followed up by 3 main Castle stages and 1 final boss stage (or do what 10 did for the most epic Castle transition)
The second Castle was a neat idea but after a while it would have been better to just get more stages.
I am not a big fan of intro stages in Mega Man Classic and X since you don't get anything from them and they feel like a waste of time (minus 8 and X8). I do like them in Zero since all the Zero intro stages serve a bigger role and have stuff to collect in them. Same with Mid-stages, I like them in Zero but not in Classic or X.
Mega Man 11 is my 3rd favorite in the classic series (9 and 10 being my favorite) and while I adore the additions it made into the series, I really do not like the lack of content in the castle stages. The first one is amazing but then the second one is just a gauntlet (a really fun one if you abuse the weapons) and then a stage for Boss rush and finally a stage for Willy.
And Mega Man 3 can go burn in fire.
As for picking stages, I am on the minority that pick their weapons for the stages rather than bosses.
Maybe I'm the only one who liked playing remixed stages (Doc) in MM3? Also, use the E-tanks for the bosses
@NovaZoneTV Guts Man is not hard, he's the first MM1 RM I beat, I can beat him by just staying by the boss door once the fight starts and just mashing the fire button with the standard Mega Buster or "P" as its called in MM1, For me he's the easiest without having a weakness weapon, followed closely by Bomb Man
Don't worry, the X games are terrible, so you don't have to feel bad about not playing them
what is the point of this video
Put a very small very pointless observation into a video format that gives me an excuse to replay the Mega Man games. There is no call to action, hot take, or grand observation if that's what you mean.