The wizard bomber archetype does actually have 1 niche use, legend with 20 alchemist 20 bomber. Bombs for days and your bombs aren't trash. That's pretty much the only use case for it though
@@zuloph You beat me to it lol. There is something else I've been meaning to test but haven't gotten around to it. Can you dip Eldritch Archer and use ranged Spellstrike with bombs? In tabletop, they counted as ranged weapons.
@@zuloph another very niche build and might be better as lich. underground alchemist 5, arcane bomber 5, arcane trickster 10. You get sneak attack on touch attack, bomb and later on, spells. Is it good? Probably not
They're not really bad. And very few are strictly worse in every way than the base class. I'm playing an Unfair run with the Hagbound (using claws). Lich Hagbound will still be ultra-strong, because it's still a full caster with the claws, bite, gore combo and Decaying Touch on top of Deadly Magic and a merged spellbook. More than enough to cruise through Unfair; you can only argue it might be easier with some other witch archetype.
I think the biggest downgrade compared the base class would be Kinetic blade, which is worse than the kineticist at using kinetic blade as you lose metakinesis, which with favoured metakinesis empowered at level 19 has no burn cost, means every other kineticist can do 50% more damage with both of the infusions a kinetic knight can use. They also lose a huge number of extremely powerful infusions and any ranged capability. Battle scion is also a strong contender however.
The worst thing about Hag of Gyronna is the pet is a once a week thing. I've not tested myself but that worries me. Summonable pets have a habit of disappearing on zone transition and pets can get smoked rather instantly if with even a bit of bad luck. You couldn't even go Azata for Lifebonding Friendship because that doesn't affect summonable pets. With what you give up, it's a sub par choice,
The imitator is obviously terrible, but it might be an OK choice for legend stacked with Drunken master (or any other monk, but I think drunken master is the highest unarmed damage), assuming the bonus attacks stack and the int bonus stacks with wis bonus to AC. That said, its hard to make a bad 40 full bab legend build.
Demon dancer is quite bad (Its a waste of 3 rage powers AND significantly delays getting to choose rage powers or even take the extra rage power feat). That said, I think its the Battle Scion that replaces sharing rage powers which your party members could not otherwise access and are very powerful as they scale with level with sharing teamwork feats if they meet the prerequisites, which your party members can take themselves anyway and only a handful of which are worth having (outflank is a default choice for anyone doing any melee) AND to activate the ability, you use your inspire rage 3 times as quickly.
Pack rager is better when come to teamwork sharing, since they have limitless Rage and doesn't stop companions from casting. Inspire ferocity can get huge bonus from mystic inspiration. This class online late like level 7, but not that late since that's the time for 3/4 bab class able to get outflank. There are few teamwork feats really good, outflank, shake it off, and spell caster, which boost spell penetration a lot.
@@themagescorner I think idea is to mix rowdy AND forester as forester can get +2 *inherent* to strenght which stack with bull strenght buff for +6 strenght. th-cam.com/video/ckvn0pjwsDU/w-d-xo.html here is channel that just began doing some pretty precisely explained last azlanti unfair run and proposed this idea.
@@themagescorner He probably means the animal companion, though there are many classes which give Animal Companion and Forester wouldn't be high on the choice list.
Hex Channeler is great. It lets you make an INT healer. And losing 3d6 channel for lesser healing hex, major healing hex, and regenerative sinew honestly makes them one of the best healers. The real worst archetype is underground alchemist. Give sup a ton for the ability to sneak attack with alchemist fires that there's a tiny supply of in the game, and brew potions, that doesn't work because they have no spellbook.
@@acrab6527 Lol best healer without mass heal? Not sure about that. Although fine, you can pick it up with Patron. Still can't come close to an oracle/cleric with all their innate empowered healings or channels. Underground alchemist has some niche use dipping 4 with alchemist to gain sneak with bombs. Maybe good for a Trickster grenadier.
@@themagescorner I did a demon hagriven/prophet of pestilence/hag of gyronna run and minor/major healing/regenerative sinew from both of them were enough to heal the whole game with a few potions. Before that I did Aeon with a hex channeler main healer. Healing is really never an issue, it's status removal from your party, and status application on the enemy that matters.
Not sure if Standard Bearer is worse than disciple of the pike, who gets no animal companion at all, in exchange for 3 ranks of weapon training with a bad class of weapon. As for the capstone, level 20 is chapter 5 only.
Yeah I was surprised to see that Banner and Banner of Solace actually stack with other morale bonuses. DotP can still be a good level 8 dip if all you want is FTK and no mount.
Hagriven doesn't get magic at all and is still a subpar claw martial, and hag of girona loose patron selection too and get even worse feats for their lost hex. At least hagbound get a good strenght score even under polymorph or reduce effect and a free good spell, girona hag get a +2 DC on useless spells sometimes.
Hex Channeler is useless, but it only costs 1 hex pick and you can simply choose not to take the other ranks in channel energy (also, you can take extra hex as a feat to still level channel energy and get the essential hexes). However, if you just ignore the feature, which is your best bet, you are only 1 hex down. Compared to elemental witch losing way more hexes and having a highly restricted patron selection, or stigmatised witch which gets no patron selection at all, its significantly better.
You can actually get 100 Intelligence with court poet, ring of triumphant advance and other things lol. But in this case, I did it with toybox for testing purposes.
Not bad just redundant. It's still pretty much the same class as base druid. Maybe even slightly better since you get better stuff from its version of spontaneous summoning... not that base druid is amazing or anything.
Bloodseeker isn't bad. It keeps the main feature of the base class (studied target) and adds spells to it in place of the feats. It's pool is even rechargeable from level 10+.
I did try prophet of prophet of pestilence, gosh..its awful, not only the debuff is awful, and the spells this class give you only can cast 1 time!!! Means they cant even be a decent corruptor spell specialist. And of course if you want to debuff enemies quick means you need to get hit - and i bet you will die first before enemy die from 0 stat. By the time this class came online, Nenio already able to control the whole battle field with illusion spells with ease
I think it's slow, not awful - the level 9 unique spell is great, and with some support, it can shine. But yes, prob the first 10 or so levels won't feel great compared to other controllers!
@@spellandshield I will do again next time, but I think it's meant to be melee, not range, just make them as tanky as other shaman. because the first 7, 9 level you need to get close and do the hex, and they give you the melee touch attack ability that has no SAVE, and also enemies will get huge debuff if they hit you. And consider lack of hex and range damage spells, I believe you best choose those hex that benefit yourself, like iceplant, barrier and stuff (get second patron). Range debuff just not viable since it's slow, and those spells they give you in this class only can cast 1 time! (Unless you get those spells orb, but I still think it's expensive and troublesome) you need to either kill enemy fast or lock them down and make them unable to attack, not kill their stat slowly. (Unless you cast Feeblemind then hex them) Of course with Corruptor, you can use stinking cloud, then creeping doom...hmm now think of it, I guess I have some direction. And this class pair well with another Assassin it seem. Maybe I do disease team on next N time play through (I never did since I don't like evil path, as in Lich path)
@@violau8550 1) everyone always looks at the level 1 disease options. You can make every enemy flat footed with a later one, or lose 2 levels a turn, or be paralyzed later on. 2) get dex and wisdom. Anything that paralyzes sets your dex to 1 so any damage at all is instant kill. Always get intelligence damage. Feeblemind and baleful polymorph both set int to 1 so any int damage kills them. 3) Spider swarms. All their stats are the casters stats. From a prophet of pestilence the spider swarms do all the work. even better with bane of spirits to make the swarms do force damage. But yeah like every archetype they've added in the last 2 updates, it doesn't do anything until 12ish. I did hagriven, hag of gyronna, prophet of pestilence. They work together perfectly, but none of them get their big THING until 12. (And sensei monk for aoe disease immunity.)
What other archetypes would make your Top 5 Worst list? 🧙♂
Defender of the true world druid (There are almost no fey in the campaing).
wizard bomber (its a bad grenadier)
The wizard bomber archetype does actually have 1 niche use, legend with 20 alchemist 20 bomber. Bombs for days and your bombs aren't trash. That's pretty much the only use case for it though
@@zuloph that's pretty neat. Next thought about it
@@zuloph You beat me to it lol. There is something else I've been meaning to test but haven't gotten around to it. Can you dip Eldritch Archer and use ranged Spellstrike with bombs? In tabletop, they counted as ranged weapons.
@@zuloph another very niche build and might be better as lich. underground alchemist 5, arcane bomber 5, arcane trickster 10. You get sneak attack on touch attack, bomb and later on, spells. Is it good? Probably not
@vitaminc2161 probably good enough for core which is what I play on personally.
The next step is to pick one of those archetypes and play it on unfair last Azlanti mode, the ultimate of all challenges 😁
They're not really bad. And very few are strictly worse in every way than the base class. I'm playing an Unfair run with the Hagbound (using claws). Lich Hagbound will still be ultra-strong, because it's still a full caster with the claws, bite, gore combo and Decaying Touch on top of Deadly Magic and a merged spellbook.
More than enough to cruise through Unfair; you can only argue it might be easier with some other witch archetype.
I think the biggest downgrade compared the base class would be Kinetic blade, which is worse than the kineticist at using kinetic blade as you lose metakinesis, which with favoured metakinesis empowered at level 19 has no burn cost, means every other kineticist can do 50% more damage with both of the infusions a kinetic knight can use. They also lose a huge number of extremely powerful infusions and any ranged capability.
Battle scion is also a strong contender however.
The worst thing about Hag of Gyronna is the pet is a once a week thing. I've not tested myself but that worries me. Summonable pets have a habit of disappearing on zone transition and pets can get smoked rather instantly if with even a bit of bad luck. You couldn't even go Azata for Lifebonding Friendship because that doesn't affect summonable pets. With what you give up, it's a sub par choice,
Hagbound is alright but after Hag of Gryonna it feels pointless. Good video.
The imitator is obviously terrible, but it might be an OK choice for legend stacked with Drunken master (or any other monk, but I think drunken master is the highest unarmed damage), assuming the bonus attacks stack and the int bonus stacks with wis bonus to AC. That said, its hard to make a bad 40 full bab legend build.
Demon dancer is quite bad (Its a waste of 3 rage powers AND significantly delays getting to choose rage powers or even take the extra rage power feat).
That said, I think its the Battle Scion that replaces sharing rage powers which your party members could not otherwise access and are very powerful as they scale with level with sharing teamwork feats if they meet the prerequisites, which your party members can take themselves anyway and only a handful of which are worth having (outflank is a default choice for anyone doing any melee) AND to activate the ability, you use your inspire rage 3 times as quickly.
Pack rager is better when come to teamwork sharing, since they have limitless Rage and doesn't stop companions from casting. Inspire ferocity can get huge bonus from mystic inspiration. This class online late like level 7, but not that late since that's the time for 3/4 bab class able to get outflank. There are few teamwork feats really good, outflank, shake it off, and spell caster, which boost spell penetration a lot.
I heard Forester is actually pretty good as dip for Wenduag / Lann (whichever you are gonna ditch after prologue) to make Shield Maze easier.
@@rafaszmuda669 huh how come? Rowdy dip makes it easier or anything with animal companion
@@themagescorner I think idea is to mix rowdy AND forester as forester can get +2 *inherent* to strenght which stack with bull strenght buff for +6 strenght. th-cam.com/video/ckvn0pjwsDU/w-d-xo.html here is channel that just began doing some pretty precisely explained last azlanti unfair run and proposed this idea.
@@themagescorner He probably means the animal companion, though there are many classes which give Animal Companion and Forester wouldn't be high on the choice list.
@@strategygames1026 I don't think Forester gets animal though.
@@themagescorner Ah, yeah, forgot about that. No idea why forester would be especially helpful in the Maze then.
Hex channeller legend with priest of balance is the best use for hex channeller.
Hex Channeler is great. It lets you make an INT healer. And losing 3d6 channel for lesser healing hex, major healing hex, and regenerative sinew honestly makes them one of the best healers.
The real worst archetype is underground alchemist. Give sup a ton for the ability to sneak attack with alchemist fires that there's a tiny supply of in the game, and brew potions, that doesn't work because they have no spellbook.
@@acrab6527 Lol best healer without mass heal? Not sure about that. Although fine, you can pick it up with Patron. Still can't come close to an oracle/cleric with all their innate empowered healings or channels.
Underground alchemist has some niche use dipping 4 with alchemist to gain sneak with bombs. Maybe good for a Trickster grenadier.
@@themagescorner I did a demon hagriven/prophet of pestilence/hag of gyronna run and minor/major healing/regenerative sinew from both of them were enough to heal the whole game with a few potions.
Before that I did Aeon with a hex channeler main healer. Healing is really never an issue, it's status removal from your party, and status application on the enemy that matters.
Not sure if Standard Bearer is worse than disciple of the pike, who gets no animal companion at all, in exchange for 3 ranks of weapon training with a bad class of weapon. As for the capstone, level 20 is chapter 5 only.
Yeah I was surprised to see that Banner and Banner of Solace actually stack with other morale bonuses.
DotP can still be a good level 8 dip if all you want is FTK and no mount.
I wonder why there is no Chirurgeon.
Funny, I like forester just because it loses the animal companion.
Hagriven doesn't get magic at all and is still a subpar claw martial, and hag of girona loose patron selection too and get even worse feats for their lost hex. At least hagbound get a good strenght score even under polymorph or reduce effect and a free good spell, girona hag get a +2 DC on useless spells sometimes.
@@Nat-ri3ip hagbound strength doesnt stack with basic size buffs lol
@@themagescorner Yeah, but neither do reduce and polymorph effects. They do stack with hagbound buff, however.
Hex Channeler is useless, but it only costs 1 hex pick and you can simply choose not to take the other ranks in channel energy (also, you can take extra hex as a feat to still level channel energy and get the essential hexes). However, if you just ignore the feature, which is your best bet, you are only 1 hex down. Compared to elemental witch losing way more hexes and having a highly restricted patron selection, or stigmatised witch which gets no patron selection at all, its significantly better.
86 intelligence? wtf how?
You can actually get 100 Intelligence with court poet, ring of triumphant advance and other things lol. But in this case, I did it with toybox for testing purposes.
Defender of the true world is bad
@@FrostyThundertrod true haha but is it worse than base class? Does it lose any good feature? Although yh in KM it is quite good
Not bad just redundant. It's still pretty much the same class as base druid. Maybe even slightly better since you get better stuff from its version of spontaneous summoning... not that base druid is amazing or anything.
No Bloodseeker? Disappointed...
@@spellandshield Haha too early for that one
Bloodseeker isn't bad. It keeps the main feature of the base class (studied target) and adds spells to it in place of the feats. It's pool is even rechargeable from level 10+.
I did try prophet of prophet of pestilence, gosh..its awful, not only the debuff is awful, and the spells this class give you only can cast 1 time!!! Means they cant even be a decent corruptor spell specialist. And of course if you want to debuff enemies quick means you need to get hit - and i bet you will die first before enemy die from 0 stat.
By the time this class came online, Nenio already able to control the whole battle field with illusion spells with ease
I think it's slow, not awful - the level 9 unique spell is great, and with some support, it can shine. But yes, prob the first 10 or so levels won't feel great compared to other controllers!
@@themagescorner the biggest problem is the spell list, they should let you use domain spell as normal spell as well.
Really? I have been wanting to make one but no builds are availabe...
@@spellandshield I will do again next time, but I think it's meant to be melee, not range, just make them as tanky as other shaman. because the first 7, 9 level you need to get close and do the hex, and they give you the melee touch attack ability that has no SAVE, and also enemies will get huge debuff if they hit you. And consider lack of hex and range damage spells, I believe you best choose those hex that benefit yourself, like iceplant, barrier and stuff (get second patron).
Range debuff just not viable since it's slow, and those spells they give you in this class only can cast 1 time! (Unless you get those spells orb, but I still think it's expensive and troublesome) you need to either kill enemy fast or lock them down and make them unable to attack, not kill their stat slowly. (Unless you cast Feeblemind then hex them)
Of course with Corruptor, you can use stinking cloud, then creeping doom...hmm now think of it, I guess I have some direction.
And this class pair well with another Assassin it seem. Maybe I do disease team on next N time play through (I never did since I don't like evil path, as in Lich path)
@@violau8550 1) everyone always looks at the level 1 disease options. You can make every enemy flat footed with a later one, or lose 2 levels a turn, or be paralyzed later on.
2) get dex and wisdom. Anything that paralyzes sets your dex to 1 so any damage at all is instant kill. Always get intelligence damage. Feeblemind and baleful polymorph both set int to 1 so any int damage kills them.
3) Spider swarms. All their stats are the casters stats. From a prophet of pestilence the spider swarms do all the work. even better with bane of spirits to make the swarms do force damage.
But yeah like every archetype they've added in the last 2 updates, it doesn't do anything until 12ish. I did hagriven, hag of gyronna, prophet of pestilence. They work together perfectly, but none of them get their big THING until 12. (And sensei monk for aoe disease immunity.)