I'm a professional game designer, been working as a level designer mostly for the last 4 years. This is an excellent video summarizing a lot of the stuff I've learned over the years as well, including the swatches idea (my last studio called it an art corner or asset level, where there is a smörgåsbord of all assets, clumped by type and theme). Only thing that is missing, which to me as someone that has worked on more narrative games, is fantasy or theme. I would say "this level takes place on roof tops and ends by a castle, next level is castle interior, after that is the dungeons of the castle, then the sewers, then the swamp" or something like that. It makes it easier to pick what gameplay gardens to use (plant?) if you know that the small corridors might not be ideal for the swamp, but should work in the dungeons, which means that concepts required for that garden needs to be taught beforehand.
It's a really weird word. It's borrowed from Swedish, and means sandwich table, which is a kind of buffet. But the word smörgås (sandwich) is made from the words smör (butter) and gås (goose). And I like the idea it's because of some troll or fairy bewitching a goose into bread.
@@PonyusTheWolfdude The "gås" that the original word refers to is actually what people would call the small lumps of butter that floated to the top while churning milk; which was considered the perfect size to butter your bread with. Of course, that meaning came about because people thought the butter looked like little geese floating about on top of the milk, so… But yes, the "smörgåsbord" was quite an early custom in Sweden and when other cultures replicated it they copied the name as well. Though in very surprising ways sometimes, in Japanese they copied it as バイキング, which is pronounced as Viking. So if you're in Japan and find a Viking restaurant they are actually serving buffet or smörgåsbord. Oh, and it wasn't that buffets didn't exist in other cultures, but apparently during the 1939 New York World's Fair Sweden had a pavilion which served smörgåsbord on a large rotating table which drew a lot of attention. It was seen as something more sophisticated and something you could serve in a fancy hotel or restaurant, which is why it was then spread as it's own thing rather than "just a buffet". So I suppose it was more the perception of it being okay to serve in fancy locales that caused the spread of the word than the actual idea of a buffet itself. And that concludes your daily diversion of a topic on youtube (don't ask me why, it just sorta happened).
at around 4:50 theres a stained glass window you crash down through. maybe its a silly and impractical idea, but i wonder if you could use something like that to allow multiple paths through the level, like at certain points you could blast through a wall or floor and go another route instead of straight ahead. Castlevania Rondo of blood did this and it resulted in making a very linear game feel more interesting
@@vilian9185 or yk just make it a short section with some kind of reward or special fight, and then add a skip that brings you to the later part of the level. Basically, make a secret optional hard section, that provides some kind of reward, and returns you to a same-ish spot in the level to where you would be if you hadn’t taken the hard path.
For teaching the player vs. Discovery, the rule of thumb I've heard / learned is to teach mechanics, but let the player find interactions. So, make sure that the player understands all of the mechanics to the game, but emergent behaviors and combinations should be allowed to be discovered. That being said, there is also the Super Mario approach to teaching mechanics. That method is super refined and still satisfying.
One thing that comes to mind is railcoining in Ultrakill. Usually, you use coins with the Coin Revolver, but if you swap weapons adter theowing a coin, the coin is still airborn so you can still use it with another weapon. This was literally learned by the community, and never tought to the players. Same thing with Coin Punching, never taught but just found out by experimenting.
So when you said ‘Teaching the player vs letting him discover’ would you say that adding choke points like the dash mechanic where you can’t pass a certain small portion until you “got” the mechanic is the way forward?
@@nikolaklobucar7981 that's the best way to do it, otherwise the dev would have to make a place to go where you could do it without the mechanic, which defeats the whole point. This way, the player neither makes nor loses progress till they can understand a simple mechanic of crouching while air dashing.
A good example would be Ori and the Blind Forest, where each time you get an ability, you have to use that ability to escape. In the case of this game, where no abilities are unlocked, instead they are just there from the start, yes, chokepoints are a good way to go.
What's interesting is that in Portal for example, Valve uses yellow paint without actually using yellow paint. After observing the behavior of playtesters, they would use textures and lighting in ways that intentionally lead the player to do what they're supposed to do, causing players to feel like they came up with solutions on their own without even knowing that they were guided there. A good thing to remember is that this is not even a puzzle game (at least I assume that's not what you're aiming for), so the last thing you want is for the other player to get stuck thinking about a puzzle that isn't actually a puzzle and that has no reward. One thing I've seen in Valve games that safely gives players that frustration you mentioned that can be fun to recover from is to present the player with something unsolvable, then wait a moment to make the player feel stuck, but then have a scripted event happen that allows the player to proceed, thus giving the player some relief from a fear that turned out to be false.
17:53 "My process is first to start with something terrible, because otherwise I'd just get paralyzed with fear and indecision". Beautifully said. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I did not expect a level design video to go to such extends about behaviors of human minds (though it does make a lot of sense in retrospect).
Humans are typically the people making video games so it honestly makes me uncomfortable if we never get to hear about their humanity in devlogs. Otherwise it just makes me wonder "How are you doing this? When I work on games I get demotivated and cry for two days before I can get back to working on it. Did you cut that part out of the dev log?" It's nice to be validated.
@@DmitriDmitri Aye. It is refreshing to hear about the processes that these developers have to go through. Too often we get to only see the end product, and not of all (or rather, some of) the steps that it took to get there. We may not even know much of the person behind the project (as in, how passionate they were about the project, what were their main goals, inspirations and such), often all we get is merely our own observation of the game that sprung into existence seemingly out of nowhere. It's hard to not feel insignificant and inept, seeing something appear as if it was already perfect from the start. But with videos like these, it helps me appreciate the effort, the thinking, problem solving and mental gymnastics that goes into making these games. Videos like these make me feel inspired to try making some of my own stuff (with varying success, but that's why the quote about "start with something terrible" resonates with me. There's no perfection from the start, as much as it looks and feels like sometimes. Edit: There's also no perfection in general, but I find it more descriptive than saying "great").
as someone who has little to no experience in level design and is soon going to be tasked with making levels for a game this actually helped a lot hoping things go well with your game! 👍
also a side note, the teaching vs letting section is literally the exact stuff going on with another indie game i'm really invested in, it's a surreal game that has a lot of exploration and mystery but some people just can't figure it out and there are even big youtubers who will stumble around in the first area of the game without knowing where to go and then talk shit about the game, hurting it's reputation its so bad the creator quite literally put a big red arrow and glowing sign pointing to the way to go its only the start of the game so i think its fine but it sucks to see people deal with this conflict and i know i'm going to deal with it myself soon enough
To the topic of that one mystery door and the topic of mystery in general. I think it is important to remember what the player is expecting from the game. Since the game is mainly this fast paced, speed running game, a level like this feels kind of out of place. It's like adding a puzzle part in the middle of a hack and slay game. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any mystery, but a player does generally not play this game for said mystery. I think super mario games are a good example for this. You can play them as just the platformer, but every level has something special and some secrets that aren't really mandatory. I think that would also be a good way for this game having spaces where you can see that there is more to it, but never really force you to stop and think about it. Of course a lot of the levels are kind of puzzly where you have to figure out, how to do things or find a sequence of things that works for you, but there is a clear difference. I hope this made sense😅
The Ratman dens in Portal are a good example of that - they can be found because the player is not expecting a fast-paced game, but if they take their time and explore what the game does give them, they can find the Easter eggs.
this is a great point! I wasn't that clear about it in the video, but getting past that part isn't really a "puzzle" and most folks breeze right through it. Though this is an example of introducing something through "discovery" rather than explicitly telling you. Nonetheless, I'm still debating if I'm going to keep it or not for the reasons you mention. I'd be curious to hear what you think once you play it!
@@Blargis3d So just ran through the game, and had so much fun that even my slow ass tried to get atleast a medal in every one of the levels. The door honestly looks like typical gamer disease. Because the only reason to not figure this one out is assuming water means death. Like you said it's not really a "puzzle" and i truly believe that in this case there is nothing wrong with your game, but with the gamer. I also want to use this to thank you and tell you that you are doing a great job as a content creator. I originally stumbled onto your channel when trying to learn godot and really learned a lot from your vids. You are just really fun to watch. Keep up the good work!
@@Blargis3d one potential minor help might be to make one path require the same mechanics in an earlier nonlinear level. so if a player happens to go that way, they might learn it there instead. it would create a diverse player experience and maybe ease a bit of struggle. conversely, however, a super tutorialized approach to learning on that path would probably be the wrong choice, as you run the risk of players thinking "oh, so because i didn't go in one specific _optional_ place i didn't learn a _necessary_ mechanic?" which is definitely the type of thing you seem to be conscientious of preventing
@@Blargis3d I think the best way to tackle the water-door issue is to establish that water isn't dangerous before reaching that part. Many games make entering a water a kill-state, and there's no reason to intuit that a hack'n slash action game where you fly through the air wont do the same. Even if it has to be forceful like a chokepoint you explained. An example could be dropping the player into water in a situation they cant avoid it and showing it is safe, perhaps making a bridge fall out and landing in a moat. looking forward to your future content
Your release of Level 2 highlighted a general fear I have as an extremely amateur creator/artist and occasional teacher/explainer of things: Knowing too much about your own work. Like, the stuff you craft makes sense to you because you've already seen it a thousand times. But when you show it to new people, they are just completely confused. But then, you don't know how much to ease or explain or how much to breakdown before it becomes too granular and condescending.
Most obstacles have specific solutions associated. Like a gap, that has to be cleared using air dash, or a hole in the wall that can only be slid through. You can string them to teach the player to teach a new mechanic: Make an obstacle the player has to overcome by air dashing followed by a small platform to land on and a hole to slide through at the end. You could repeat the same with a wide gap directly behind the hole in the wall, to show how much momentum was preserved. By the way: Your demo is already a really nice game! And your videos are also great!
@@bad1080 a "bloodthief log" is one of these videos, and "just dropped" means it released he's saying "come quick a new bloodthief video just released" so no, it's not an innuendo
The 12:30 min mark question: Indie game dev here, from what I have personally learned over the years is that "Aha!" moments should either have an alternate solution that IS obvious to a player or explained to the player to avoid a stall in gameplay, or the "Aha!" moments should be used in ways that Easter eggs/extras can be found to avoid derailing gameplay and also lending to the desire to explore alternate routes and exploration in desire of rewards. Just my two cents, solid devlog fam. Keep it up!
Open areas with setups requiring high skill it might be good to have a much slower alternative route. That way players have an option to proceed without getting burnt out on a section, but will have a much slower time. Something that the classic Sonic games do. Different tiers of a level, higher areas require more precise platforming but are faster, lower is less precise but more obstacles and hazards to slow you down. So if you fall off the harder path, you aren't forced to start over, you are just put on the slower path.
blargis you are a sagely saint for sharing your trenchbroom godot workflow... it legit carried a 30 day student project i had to do a while back in godot because it was my first time ever using godot and i just happened to get your first or second video in my recommended two days into the project. all of the little workflow tips and techniques you share are a gamedev's holy grail... my grandkids WILL be buying the HD triple deluxe edition of bloodthief when it comes out in 2065 in your honor
Portal and Portal 2 might be some of the best examples out there when it comes to level design and teaching mechanics in a linear way before letting the player use those mechanics in open puzzle boxes, which I'm not sure if you realize, but you made a puzzle game. That's why they're some of the most widely loved speedrun games out there.
I think what makes the mystery fun versus frustrating is if it's necessary. If a game puts you in front of a wall and says, you can't progress until I tell you how to do this thing I never taught you, that's frustrating, but if you put a wall in the game world that the player can just completely skip and avoid if they want it goes like, hey there's this wall here. I wonder how to get past it. Maybe you can put things like that earlier in the game in open sections and make them optional, then later, when learning the concept is absolutely necessary, you teach them explicitly. That way, players can have an aw ha moment and figure it out early, or they can get to the part where you explicitly teach and go, oh, that's what I was supposed to do there; maybe I'll go back and see whats behind that wall now. Best of booth worlds.
This is probably the single best dev log video I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. It's entertaining, endearing, and educational all at once. It's hard to admit when you've made a mistake but way harder to admit it, learn from it, and then teach others about the experience. Keep it up.
A proposed solution of mine to the "letting players discover vs explicitly teaching": Why not a try a mix of both? You can design levels that give opportunities to the players to use mechanics they haven't been taught yet, but not block them from progressing if they haven't figured them out yet or can't think of it on the fly. Think of things like quick shortcuts, rooms with goodies, maybe entire alternative paths. Things that a player may spark a player's curiosity. Then only make a choke point for when this mechanic becomes mandatory to progress further in the game. On paper this should keep the players being able to discover things on their own while not having them get stuck. Additionally adding extra replayability, when replaying levels the players would naturally see new ways to approach a level, or places they now know how to get to. A simple example section I can think of. You have a hallway, some enemies in it, and there is a gate at the end of the hallway that's slowly closing. If the player knows about momentum preservation they can easily slide under the closing gate and skip a short sewer section they'd have to go through to get to the next room if they didn't reach the gate fast enough. Obviously this isn't a suggestion for an actual level piece, just an example to get the point across.
if the level isnt straight and is more like a town that u can swing around and explore until u find the right way then the player would probably always feel in control and enjoy it. love the game so far EDit: thats literally exactly what u found out oops, i spoke too soon
Witnessing people create something whether it be a videogame or something else and despite the shortcomings of your work the desire to improve overcoming feelings of inadequecy... It at least fills me with determination, someone struggling to figure out what to dedicate themselves in life. These type of videos really are my fuel that help me keep going! Thank you from the bottom of my heart for publishing this video that inspired me. Hope you can implement new things to your game the way you've envisioned with minimal difficulty. Much love from Türkiye ❤
I love this game already just from the playtest and I'm so glad you found a way for my non-linear suggestion can work in a way that still allows for people to learn the mechanics. That part of the video was genuinely such an interesting point I didn't even think of.
Not only is the actual content of the video really interesting, the way the video is produced to present it all is fantastic as well. Thanks mate, really enjoy these vids!
I think you are doing it the right way. You build interesting levels for someone who has all the knowledge and then add some "teaching levels" in between. This also adds to the amount of content in a non-scummy way.
12:35 Yo, remember the 1-4 level from Ultrakill? You can maybe make 2 ways to progress in game in this chokepoints: one more time-consuming (finding 3 keys or smth) and one fast and AHA! solution.
The way that you break down your design process into an extremely informative and entertaining video is incredible. I also appreciate that you are showing the good and the bad, as well as the lessons/conclusions you take away from each experience. I’m excited to try applying some of the things you discussed in my own design process, especially gameplay gardens. This is awesome content, please keep making more videos like this!
I just uploaded a playthrough of this game it's so fun i can't wait for more levels. Idk how game dev works and idk how hard it is too implement something like the workshop but i bet the workshop modders would have fun making level's for this game. 👍
I live for these devlogs, by far some of the most informative and inspiring devlogs I've seen. I watch them again whenever I'm feeling down in my development journey. *Godspeed, Blargis.*
I feel like Celeste is a good example of a game that allows the player to discover hidden depth in the game. That game has a wave-dash mechanic that the player isn't taught at all (until the post-game dlc level) but that the player can discover on their own anytime and wave-dashing unlocks a lot of hidden/unaccessible paths to the player. What I'm trying to say is, the deeper/hidden mechanics shouldn't be the only way to beat a level but should instead be a way for the player to beat the level in a different way.
Dude, I just played the first level after watching your "1 Year of Developing My Game in Godot" video. I cannot describe how much fun this game is. The soundtrack is killer and the movement mechanics are awesome. Bravo my good sir. You have earned a subscriber, play tester, and future customer
Wow, it really shows how the game grows along with you. I fully support the idea to "appeal to a fewer audience, but make the game more unique or spicy", this is the way of art!
This is absolutely the video I needed. I've been working on a 2D speedrunning platformer for some time now, and I think the core components are pretty much all there - but I recently hit a brick wall with level design. I'd repeatedly open up the project with the intent of designing a new stage, aimlessly place blocks onscreen, and quickly decide I hated anything that I made. The gameplay gardens idea seems particularly helpful - instead of thinking of the level as a whole, I think making gardens to discover certain "elements" that can be placed together will make the level design process orders of magnitude easier. Just added this to my wishlist, looking forward to the demo!
I love your videos (and your game). One of the main reasons is the way you share your process of learning a game dev / game design skill and then share the application of that learning via the playtest for Bloodthief. Genuinely, this has made you my single favorite gamedev youtuber, and makes me really excited for the game you're eventually going to release. Keep up the absolutely fantastic work, thanks for making content (and games).
Dude if i were to say everything i wanted it would take like 10 lines of words and words, but maaaaaan this is absolutely incredible and inspiring! I want to make games myself and i'm just starting, and as i progressed through this video i felt so well instructed and guided, that i felt i could do a level design myself, even tho i don't even know how to code, so yeah this video is awesome and i can't thank you enough for it.
Your are a crazy good story teller I must say. One of my favorite series on TH-cam. Game Dev encompasses so much stuff its kind of crazy. Interior Design, architecture, game design, texturing, sound, coding. So much to learn, so much to pull from.
I just played the most recent playtest... holy shit man. this game went from like a 7 or 8 out of ten to litterally one of the most engaging games i have ever played. you are cooking. stay in the kitchen
This was a GREAT video. I'm excited for the game. The thing about yellow paint isn't about telling the player where to go, but that it's immersion breaking and doesn't fit in the world. Environmental pathing is important in almost every game. I'm sure there's some youtube vid that does a great job of explaining it, but I tend to condense it down to Eyesight/Eyeline. Lights > Paints. Paint is obvious, but lights tend to draw your eyes. We are trained to associate lights with directions in the real world which is why it works so well in game design. There are things that can communicate to the player without being paint. Architecture, Lights, Textures, environmental story telling like dead bodies, blood splatters etc.. Whenever I get lost in a game the first thing I look for are environmental clues, Specifically lights.
The problem with adding those in, say, RE4make? A lot of the game is already in broad daylight. Lighting up interactables wouldn't stand out. Unless the light was flickering or something.
Ngl i was one of the people that dropped the game at 13:25 when the inital demo came out, i tried getting in, fell out of bounds and decided "mhmm yeah im gonna do smth else this seems a bit raw rn". But its really cool to see how youre improving the game, i'll prob come back to see how it has shaped up
To help you out here with one of your points, I think what makes mystery in a game feel GOOD to a player is not when the game is deceptive, but when it rewards exploration and trying out new things. Take the castle door at 12:51 for example, you could maybe make the giant gate open when approached, but perhaps if you explore into the water, you get a shortcut. Or perhaps off in the castle you can see some rubble and an opening that the player can spot, then they'll try and navigate and investigate the rubble, making the player go the direction you want while feeling smart. Perhaps there could be multiple entrances. Try and reward exploring, while not deceiving the player, because there being a giant gate that doesn't work, just makes the player feel tricked, and like it doesn't make sense. Along with 12:48 the reason why it's frustrating and not an "aha! i get it now!" moment, is because it FORCES you to have that "aha!" moment, rather then letting the player feel like they're almost outsmarting the game.
I love this trial and error approach to sharing insight. I’ve watched a lot of game design videos that come from a ‘in the know’ perspective, and I often come away feeling demotivated somehow. This video makes me want to go make levels with what I’ve just learned and have fun doing that. So big thumbs up, thanks!
First off, love the videos, super interesting and insightful! Secondly, on the topic of mystery and potential player frustration, I think from a player's perspective the best way to make those elements land is how invested the player is when they run up against a roadblock like that. If you've already been playing it for a while, gotten into the groove, you are enjoying the gameplay loop and then you hit something like that, I find that I am far more likely to try and push past it, whereas if a game hits me with a roadblock within the first couple levels I am far more likely to just give up because it hasn't given me a reason to care enough to spend the time to figure out whatever mystery or puzzle it has presented me with.
The game looks more and more stellar like always, but these dev logs are also extraordinarily well told! Love the effort you put into making these so high quality and fun to watch. It helps communicate the way the game feels so well.
I don't remember if you've mentioned Neon White as an inspiration in previous videos, but I definitely see the influence. I suggest looking back at what the designer does for those levels. A lot of the levels allow paths that are slower, but require less mechanical knowledge, but if they want that faster run, then they need to learn that skill. Something else to consider is a ghost for pathing the slowest run that can be toggled. This way players have the option of whether or not they want the help when completing a level.
@11:29 A good tip I picked up about player training is from Valve developer commentaries. I think it went something like: 1. Introduce a concept to the player 2. Verify they understand that concept 3. Add that concept to other concepts as a test or something to that effect.
11:10 you could always add a wall with a gap at the bottom in that area to signify to the player you need to slide and it also teaches the player that they're faster when dashing then sliding with the moving spikes
for the gate specifically i think there should be more hints surrounding to make it clearer to the player that is the solution, say some jutted out parts of the boundary hills to entice players to jump on them. it's like a puzzle game tutorial, you don't want to give the solution away but you still need to make the path to that solution clear to the player.
I use trenchbroom to make quake maps and 15:30 is so real I have gotten so much mileage out of that arch prefab thing, especially for my beloved gothic architecture Edit* OH I totally have to try that swatch technique the next time I get back into mapping
Doom Eternal did this pretty well. Gives you your skills one at a time, makes you master it before you get a new toy, then you get a new toy to add another skill, etc.
11:00 Portal is really insanely good at this. You spend a _long_ time only being able to play with one half of the portal gun. Then there's a whole region where you learn about the cubes. And then you finally have both halves of the portal gun, and you have entire level designs where the whole focus of the level is exactly one concept (speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out). Turrets eventually stand in your way but you know what they are because you've seen them behind glass the entire game, and you have the tools to avoid and kill them (portals underneath them, dropping cubes on them, etc - sometimes you have multiple different ways to do it, sometimes the game's "chokepoint" is that you _have_ to do it one of the two ways. Either it's standing on an unportalable floor, or the ceiling to drop a cube from is unportalable). ^ I'd really try to integrate all of these concepts. 1 -> each level only teaches one new concept. 2 -> You've been exposed to a concept before you actually have to learn it (e.g. you saw cubes falling at velocity through a portal, before you had to pass your own body at velocity through a portal. And you saw turrets many levels before fighting them.) 3 -> There's a character and storyline. E.g. imagine a villain that has ghosts swirling around him and you're only chasing him for Chapter 1, for Chapter 2 his ghosts begin to attack you, and Chapter 3 you have to fight him. == One thing I remembered Portal saying they did was have a long line of "fresh meat" to throw into the game, and they'd watch over their shoulder from Level 1 to see how it goes. It was only after doing that a bazillion times were they able to make it so clean and polished. The moment they play the game, that player is "tainted", and can't be used to test the fresh game again.
I don't know anything about game design, and I know this wasn't what you intended with this video, but you actually got me thinking about my approach to writing fiction narratives with the way you approached this project
I learned so much more than I expected to in this video, so much important information condensed in such a short amount of time and communicated well. I really like the swatches idea and the concept graph!
One idea that could be good would be to incorporate some of the more challenging (but optional) ideas as little secrets to be found in levels. Like make a path that branches off but looks completely impossible to do. You could even make some areas that would essentially be above the normal level route. Getting up to them could give you a chance to try things out, but falling wouldn’t even kill you, it’d just take you back to the normal way you’d go. This would encourage experimentation and replay ability. A player could play the level once, think, “I wonder what was over there?” and then they could return to it later. This could even work well if it requires a technique that isn’t even necessary until later levels.
Level design started out as one of the most difficult things for me to approach in game dev. I enjoy it a lot now. Thanks for sharing your experience man. Great video.
This is such a great devlog. Funny and insightful as always. I often struggle with level design and how to approach it and I really like this idea of gameplay gardens. I will have to apply it in the future.
i think you should change the spiked walls a pikes celling at 11:00 to make sliding more intuitive, like thinking you'll be able to barely make it out with your reduced hitbox but then finding out it gives you a speed boost
the "gameplay gardens" concept feels like the level design version of a sketchpage, just playing around with rough concepts. I'd never considered it for level design but it makes so much sense!
I'm currently in a game development class, and I've got to say, a lot of these things are actually really helpful! The gameplay gardens and swatches are definitely a good idea, though I'm not sure how the latter will translate into 2D (maybe just tilesets? or something similar since there will be fancy lighting, particles, effects, etc.). I also really enjoy watching game design videos, and was glad you brought up GMTK's mystery design video, as I enjoyed that one very much as well. Here's to hoping our games are successful (I'm sure yours will be, it looks awesome)!
I've always wondered why my test zone felt more fun to play around in than my actual levels, but what you said about levels not being too linear is a really good point and is probably the culprit
This is all such good insight and such an enjoyable video. Love this
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45K subs with like 10 videos. True quality content in video and game design. Really cool, entertaining and insightful stuff there man. Not the biggest fan of that kind of game (reminds me of ultrakill) but as a beginner Gdev every video is a joy to watch.
I started my game dev journey a couple months ago and I'm slowly learning the fundamentals (it's kind of impossible to start making an actual game until I've gotten the basics of godot down). Videos from creators like you are what keep me motivated, I can't freaking wait to start this stage you're in, where no video can really TEACH you how to do it, you're just experimenting until you understand it intuitively from lessons learnt. Like I can watch this 1000 times but I doubt it'll help me much until I go through the process myself. Level design scares me but I'm looking forward to learning it.
Loving how the progress is coming along! Excited to stream it 😉 would love to see a video on how you collect your play test analytics and how you put them to specific use!
At 11:45, that is pretty much the "flow zone graph" that you reached, an important bit in gamedev. If there's too much new things to learn (aka difficulty is too high), it leads to anxiety/stress for the player, and if there's too little (player learned the skills needed, was made to repeat the exact same challenge a few times, or the challenges are too easy at that point) it leads to boredom, like you described. Staying between those two lines (or, in your analogy, letting the snake digest the rats a bit before giving it another one) is as you've found the key to keeping the player engaged, or "in the flow zone".
Also, if you worry about the tutorial sections, having a non-linear way to skip them by using the same trick when coming from a previous area would allow the experienced players to get through them faster while also ensuring the trick is still needed. Although for the ones shown here it seems like it's quite quick either way, so it's probably not a concern.
For the case of players being stuck in level 1 with the same issue, but not wanting to give out the solution freely; There isn't really a great way to handle it, specially since the solution is already quite a common one for games. If they're not exploring that much before giving up, how much further would they even get in the game? This might just be filtering the players that wouldn't enjoy it already from the get-go. But if you really want to try a few alternatives anyway: 1, you can have environmental details that lead them to the solution (like only slightly off-color textures near where they should go, or decreasing water opacity), though this might be a bit too close to the yellow-paint issue 2, slowly drip-feed them hints (I assume voice lines/text here wouldn't fit the game, so water bubbles/sounds sometimes playing near it to draw attention after a minute or two have passed would be better) 3, having a non-linear route (or route that opens up after a while, like the gate opening and enemies flooding out) that does end up leading you to the same place, but slower, and upon reaching it the players may notice the intended and faster route they missed 4, slightly redesigning the area so that it's more likely they fall into the water at some point and realize it's not an immediate fail state (like having a longer bridge with holes, or the bridge being up, or a larger moat with some interesting island on it like having a sword stuck in it) Then again, a lot of this is a lot of extra work, and I'm not sure if it's needed since finding guides or asking for help online should also be an option. But at least it's a few extra ways to deal with it, if you feel frustrated about the current way you've made the level.
13:31 This part reminded me about a certain zone as a new player in Rain World, The Exterior. I remember as a new player being SO frustrated when going through the Exterior, especially The Leg And Underhang. Because it is a zone that requires a lot more of knowledge about the game’s main mechanics while introducing new ones, and especially ramping up the difficulty. (New enemies, Complicated Parkour etc) And I remember as a new player straight up rage quitting that zone, because it WAS frustrating, and VERY unfair. BUT sometimes imo, i feel like you gotta have that one obstacle in a game you enjoy, that one thing you remember struggling with for it to be an experience you will remember, and this part in Rain World in particular, while at the time made me Throw my laptop. I would give everything now to come back to it as someone who knows nothing about it again. Now some players might’ve gotten and gave up there, but taking RW as an example again, for the players that see it through, and stick for the hard ride, a lot of time they will see this game as something special, so i feel like you should also see players leaving at that part a certain way to filter out the ones that aren’t your target audience. Not a game designer, but I hope my comment can help with that. :)
this game reminds me so much of ultrakill. when you get in the zone and the enemies stand no chance, man.. also the graphics and the general progression of it's development
I LOVE YOUR GAME AND THE UPDATE WAS AMAZING!!!!(It would be extremely cool to some day get a level where at the start you just choose one of two paths and play completely different routes) edit: first route could be castle styled and the ither a forest
love your videos found your channel recently and binged threw the content on Bloodthief, and it has inspired me to learn to make games. Thanks for that.
Regarding discovery versus being taught, personally I would tackle it by teaching the player the fundamentals/requirements to play the game, while leaving self discovery for the extra parts. That way they won't just get stuck on a level without ever being told what to do, but it also still allows them to be creative and find solutions and hidden mechanics that can make their time even better. I currently have 3 ideas on how to implement the self discovery this way: 1 - Hiding a key somewhere on the level that you need to know hidden mechanics for, and it leads to an extra part of the level that is harder because it can assume you know these extra mechanics where maybe there even is a boss. 2 - Extra/bonus levels that are either always unlocked or unlock after finding a secret that do basically the same thing but now as a standalone. Just a new level where you can freely assume the player knows "everything" (at least more) and can thus be more free in design. 3- Have multiple intended ways to get past (some) obstacles, these obstacles can be either parkour or enemies (maybe even both) and let the player go with an easier route that takes longer, or do the tricky route that they might not even realize exists or is possible depending on if they know the mechanic needed. This can be fun for speedrunners specifically I think. I think 3 is definitely the trickiest to design for but might be the most rewarding as well.
I'm a professional game designer, been working as a level designer mostly for the last 4 years. This is an excellent video summarizing a lot of the stuff I've learned over the years as well, including the swatches idea (my last studio called it an art corner or asset level, where there is a smörgåsbord of all assets, clumped by type and theme).
Only thing that is missing, which to me as someone that has worked on more narrative games, is fantasy or theme. I would say "this level takes place on roof tops and ends by a castle, next level is castle interior, after that is the dungeons of the castle, then the sewers, then the swamp" or something like that. It makes it easier to pick what gameplay gardens to use (plant?) if you know that the small corridors might not be ideal for the swamp, but should work in the dungeons, which means that concepts required for that garden needs to be taught beforehand.
Really great point and definitely something I need to focus more on
shoutouts smörgåsbord
Smörgåsbord sounds like a name for a forgotten northern folklore demon that mildly inconveniences you in your sleep if didn't wash your dishes
It's a really weird word. It's borrowed from Swedish, and means sandwich table, which is a kind of buffet. But the word smörgås (sandwich) is made from the words smör (butter) and gås (goose).
And I like the idea it's because of some troll or fairy bewitching a goose into bread.
@@PonyusTheWolfdude The "gås" that the original word refers to is actually what people would call the small lumps of butter that floated to the top while churning milk; which was considered the perfect size to butter your bread with. Of course, that meaning came about because people thought the butter looked like little geese floating about on top of the milk, so…
But yes, the "smörgåsbord" was quite an early custom in Sweden and when other cultures replicated it they copied the name as well. Though in very surprising ways sometimes, in Japanese they copied it as バイキング, which is pronounced as Viking. So if you're in Japan and find a Viking restaurant they are actually serving buffet or smörgåsbord.
Oh, and it wasn't that buffets didn't exist in other cultures, but apparently during the 1939 New York World's Fair Sweden had a pavilion which served smörgåsbord on a large rotating table which drew a lot of attention. It was seen as something more sophisticated and something you could serve in a fancy hotel or restaurant, which is why it was then spread as it's own thing rather than "just a buffet".
So I suppose it was more the perception of it being okay to serve in fancy locales that caused the spread of the word than the actual idea of a buffet itself.
And that concludes your daily diversion of a topic on youtube (don't ask me why, it just sorta happened).
Blargis. I am in love with you. Bear my children.
based
Real
Respondddd blargis. Accept your lovah
No, he's MINE
@@scoutgaming737 We must duel
at around 4:50 theres a stained glass window you crash down through. maybe its a silly and impractical idea, but i wonder if you could use something like that to allow multiple paths through the level, like at certain points you could blast through a wall or floor and go another route instead of straight ahead. Castlevania Rondo of blood did this and it resulted in making a very linear game feel more interesting
love this idea
maybe in the end, so they player want to replay the entire level to test the glasses that he didn't tested
@@vilian9185 or yk just make it a short section with some kind of reward or special fight, and then add a skip that brings you to the later part of the level. Basically, make a secret optional hard section, that provides some kind of reward, and returns you to a same-ish spot in the level to where you would be if you hadn’t taken the hard path.
SILKSONG
reminds me a lot of the v2 skip, jump through the window instead of finding the three blue skulls (ultrakill)
For teaching the player vs. Discovery, the rule of thumb I've heard / learned is to teach mechanics, but let the player find interactions.
So, make sure that the player understands all of the mechanics to the game, but emergent behaviors and combinations should be allowed to be discovered.
That being said, there is also the Super Mario approach to teaching mechanics. That method is super refined and still satisfying.
One thing that comes to mind is railcoining in Ultrakill. Usually, you use coins with the Coin Revolver, but if you swap weapons adter theowing a coin, the coin is still airborn so you can still use it with another weapon. This was literally learned by the community, and never tought to the players. Same thing with Coin Punching, never taught but just found out by experimenting.
So when you said ‘Teaching the player vs letting him discover’ would you say that adding choke points like the dash mechanic where you can’t pass a certain small portion until you “got” the mechanic is the way forward?
@@nikolaklobucar7981 that's the best way to do it, otherwise the dev would have to make a place to go where you could do it without the mechanic, which defeats the whole point. This way, the player neither makes nor loses progress till they can understand a simple mechanic of crouching while air dashing.
A good example would be Ori and the Blind Forest, where each time you get an ability, you have to use that ability to escape. In the case of this game, where no abilities are unlocked, instead they are just there from the start, yes, chokepoints are a good way to go.
What's interesting is that in Portal for example, Valve uses yellow paint without actually using yellow paint. After observing the behavior of playtesters, they would use textures and lighting in ways that intentionally lead the player to do what they're supposed to do, causing players to feel like they came up with solutions on their own without even knowing that they were guided there. A good thing to remember is that this is not even a puzzle game (at least I assume that's not what you're aiming for), so the last thing you want is for the other player to get stuck thinking about a puzzle that isn't actually a puzzle and that has no reward. One thing I've seen in Valve games that safely gives players that frustration you mentioned that can be fun to recover from is to present the player with something unsolvable, then wait a moment to make the player feel stuck, but then have a scripted event happen that allows the player to proceed, thus giving the player some relief from a fear that turned out to be false.
17:53 "My process is first to start with something terrible, because otherwise I'd just get paralyzed with fear and indecision". Beautifully said.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I did not expect a level design video to go to such extends about behaviors of human minds (though it does make a lot of sense in retrospect).
Humans are typically the people making video games so it honestly makes me uncomfortable if we never get to hear about their humanity in devlogs. Otherwise it just makes me wonder "How are you doing this? When I work on games I get demotivated and cry for two days before I can get back to working on it. Did you cut that part out of the dev log?" It's nice to be validated.
@@DmitriDmitri Aye. It is refreshing to hear about the processes that these developers have to go through.
Too often we get to only see the end product, and not of all (or rather, some of) the steps that it took to get there. We may not even know much of the person behind the project (as in, how passionate they were about the project, what were their main goals, inspirations and such), often all we get is merely our own observation of the game that sprung into existence seemingly out of nowhere. It's hard to not feel insignificant and inept, seeing something appear as if it was already perfect from the start.
But with videos like these, it helps me appreciate the effort, the thinking, problem solving and mental gymnastics that goes into making these games. Videos like these make me feel inspired to try making some of my own stuff (with varying success, but that's why the quote about "start with something terrible" resonates with me. There's no perfection from the start, as much as it looks and feels like sometimes. Edit: There's also no perfection in general, but I find it more descriptive than saying "great").
as someone who has little to no experience in level design and is soon going to be tasked with making levels for a game this actually helped a lot
hoping things go well with your game! 👍
also a side note, the teaching vs letting section is literally the exact stuff going on with another indie game i'm really invested in, it's a surreal game that has a lot of exploration and mystery but some people just can't figure it out and there are even big youtubers who will stumble around in the first area of the game without knowing where to go and then talk shit about the game, hurting it's reputation
its so bad the creator quite literally put a big red arrow and glowing sign pointing to the way to go
its only the start of the game so i think its fine but it sucks to see people deal with this conflict and i know i'm going to deal with it myself soon enough
@@DisplacedDev What game is it? It sounds like something I'd like
@@maddscraft5459 garn47
@@DisplacedDevYou can't just write this wall of text about a game and then not actually name it, come on man.
@@DisplacedDev Which game is it?
To the topic of that one mystery door and the topic of mystery in general. I think it is important to remember what the player is expecting from the game. Since the game is mainly this fast paced, speed running game, a level like this feels kind of out of place. It's like adding a puzzle part in the middle of a hack and slay game. This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be any mystery, but a player does generally not play this game for said mystery. I think super mario games are a good example for this. You can play them as just the platformer, but every level has something special and some secrets that aren't really mandatory. I think that would also be a good way for this game having spaces where you can see that there is more to it, but never really force you to stop and think about it. Of course a lot of the levels are kind of puzzly where you have to figure out, how to do things or find a sequence of things that works for you, but there is a clear difference. I hope this made sense😅
The Ratman dens in Portal are a good example of that - they can be found because the player is not expecting a fast-paced game, but if they take their time and explore what the game does give them, they can find the Easter eggs.
this is a great point! I wasn't that clear about it in the video, but getting past that part isn't really a "puzzle" and most folks breeze right through it. Though this is an example of introducing something through "discovery" rather than explicitly telling you. Nonetheless, I'm still debating if I'm going to keep it or not for the reasons you mention. I'd be curious to hear what you think once you play it!
@@Blargis3d So just ran through the game, and had so much fun that even my slow ass tried to get atleast a medal in every one of the levels. The door honestly looks like typical gamer disease. Because the only reason to not figure this one out is assuming water means death. Like you said it's not really a "puzzle" and i truly believe that in this case there is nothing wrong with your game, but with the gamer.
I also want to use this to thank you and tell you that you are doing a great job as a content creator. I originally stumbled onto your channel when trying to learn godot and really learned a lot from your vids. You are just really fun to watch. Keep up the good work!
@@Blargis3d one potential minor help might be to make one path require the same mechanics in an earlier nonlinear level. so if a player happens to go that way, they might learn it there instead. it would create a diverse player experience and maybe ease a bit of struggle.
conversely, however, a super tutorialized approach to learning on that path would probably be the wrong choice, as you run the risk of players thinking "oh, so because i didn't go in one specific _optional_ place i didn't learn a _necessary_ mechanic?" which is definitely the type of thing you seem to be conscientious of preventing
@@Blargis3d I think the best way to tackle the water-door issue is to establish that water isn't dangerous before reaching that part. Many games make entering a water a kill-state, and there's no reason to intuit that a hack'n slash action game where you fly through the air wont do the same. Even if it has to be forceful like a chokepoint you explained. An example could be dropping the player into water in a situation they cant avoid it and showing it is safe, perhaps making a bridge fall out and landing in a moat.
looking forward to your future content
Your release of Level 2 highlighted a general fear I have as an extremely amateur creator/artist and occasional teacher/explainer of things: Knowing too much about your own work. Like, the stuff you craft makes sense to you because you've already seen it a thousand times. But when you show it to new people, they are just completely confused. But then, you don't know how much to ease or explain or how much to breakdown before it becomes too granular and condescending.
Most obstacles have specific solutions associated. Like a gap, that has to be cleared using air dash, or a hole in the wall that can only be slid through.
You can string them to teach the player to teach a new mechanic:
Make an obstacle the player has to overcome by air dashing followed by a small platform to land on and a hole to slide through at the end. You could repeat the same with a wide gap directly behind the hole in the wall, to show how much momentum was preserved.
By the way: Your demo is already a really nice game! And your videos are also great!
HONEY COMME QUICK NEW BLOODTHIEF LOG JUST DROPPED
is dropping logs an innuendo for shitting bricks?
@@bad1080 a "bloodthief log" is one of these videos, and "just dropped" means it released
he's saying "come quick a new bloodthief video just released"
so no, it's not an innuendo
@@VoidiumTheEye He's probably joking
i'm still jealous how you could read hate or criticism that easily and understand it to prove your game, this is great
The 12:30 min mark question:
Indie game dev here, from what I have personally learned over the years is that "Aha!" moments should either have an alternate solution that IS obvious to a player or explained to the player to avoid a stall in gameplay, or the "Aha!" moments should be used in ways that Easter eggs/extras can be found to avoid derailing gameplay and also lending to the desire to explore alternate routes and exploration in desire of rewards.
Just my two cents, solid devlog fam. Keep it up!
Open areas with setups requiring high skill it might be good to have a much slower alternative route. That way players have an option to proceed without getting burnt out on a section, but will have a much slower time. Something that the classic Sonic games do. Different tiers of a level, higher areas require more precise platforming but are faster, lower is less precise but more obstacles and hazards to slow you down. So if you fall off the harder path, you aren't forced to start over, you are just put on the slower path.
blargis you are a sagely saint for sharing your trenchbroom godot workflow... it legit carried a 30 day student project i had to do a while back in godot because it was my first time ever using godot and i just happened to get your first or second video in my recommended two days into the project. all of the little workflow tips and techniques you share are a gamedev's holy grail... my grandkids WILL be buying the HD triple deluxe edition of bloodthief when it comes out in 2065 in your honor
Dude, this game looks absolutely SICK! I've always loved the old "Grungy" polygon aesthetic of PS2 games and you nailed it.
woah
Thanks for the super-thanks :)
Portal and Portal 2 might be some of the best examples out there when it comes to level design and teaching mechanics in a linear way before letting the player use those mechanics in open puzzle boxes, which I'm not sure if you realize, but you made a puzzle game. That's why they're some of the most widely loved speedrun games out there.
4:29 RAIN WORLD SPOTTED!
SOUNDING THE RAIN WORLD ALARM!!
I think what makes the mystery fun versus frustrating is if it's necessary. If a game puts you in front of a wall and says, you can't progress until I tell you how to do this thing I never taught you, that's frustrating, but if you put a wall in the game world that the player can just completely skip and avoid if they want it goes like, hey there's this wall here. I wonder how to get past it. Maybe you can put things like that earlier in the game in open sections and make them optional, then later, when learning the concept is absolutely necessary, you teach them explicitly. That way, players can have an aw ha moment and figure it out early, or they can get to the part where you explicitly teach and go, oh, that's what I was supposed to do there; maybe I'll go back and see whats behind that wall now. Best of booth worlds.
This is probably the single best dev log video I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot. It's entertaining, endearing, and educational all at once. It's hard to admit when you've made a mistake but way harder to admit it, learn from it, and then teach others about the experience. Keep it up.
A proposed solution of mine to the "letting players discover vs explicitly teaching":
Why not a try a mix of both? You can design levels that give opportunities to the players to use mechanics they haven't been taught yet, but not block them from progressing if they haven't figured them out yet or can't think of it on the fly. Think of things like quick shortcuts, rooms with goodies, maybe entire alternative paths. Things that a player may spark a player's curiosity. Then only make a choke point for when this mechanic becomes mandatory to progress further in the game.
On paper this should keep the players being able to discover things on their own while not having them get stuck. Additionally adding extra replayability, when replaying levels the players would naturally see new ways to approach a level, or places they now know how to get to.
A simple example section I can think of. You have a hallway, some enemies in it, and there is a gate at the end of the hallway that's slowly closing. If the player knows about momentum preservation they can easily slide under the closing gate and skip a short sewer section they'd have to go through to get to the next room if they didn't reach the gate fast enough. Obviously this isn't a suggestion for an actual level piece, just an example to get the point across.
if the level isnt straight and is more like a town that u can swing around and explore until u find the right way then the player would probably always feel in control and enjoy it. love the game so far
EDit: thats literally exactly what u found out oops, i spoke too soon
you are the most inspiring, fun to watch, best game making and genuine dev logger on youtube. thank you
also funniest
Witnessing people create something whether it be a videogame or something else and despite the shortcomings of your work the desire to improve overcoming feelings of inadequecy... It at least fills me with determination, someone struggling to figure out what to dedicate themselves in life. These type of videos really are my fuel that help me keep going! Thank you from the bottom of my heart for publishing this video that inspired me. Hope you can implement new things to your game the way you've envisioned with minimal difficulty. Much love from Türkiye ❤
I love this game already just from the playtest and I'm so glad you found a way for my non-linear suggestion can work in a way that still allows for people to learn the mechanics. That part of the video was genuinely such an interesting point I didn't even think of.
Not only is the actual content of the video really interesting, the way the video is produced to present it all is fantastic as well. Thanks mate, really enjoy these vids!
14:53 Thought that was my holy emperor guarding that door for a split second.
Funny idea he would get so casually kicked out of the way.
9:53 i played the earlier version of the playtest and I definitely already knew this mechanic
I think you are doing it the right way. You build interesting levels for someone who has all the knowledge and then add some "teaching levels" in between. This also adds to the amount of content in a non-scummy way.
glad i subscribed to this channel, the game looks so good
12:35 Yo, remember the 1-4 level from Ultrakill? You can maybe make 2 ways to progress in game in this chokepoints: one more time-consuming (finding 3 keys or smth) and one fast and AHA! solution.
The way that you break down your design process into an extremely informative and entertaining video is incredible. I also appreciate that you are showing the good and the bad, as well as the lessons/conclusions you take away from each experience.
I’m excited to try applying some of the things you discussed in my own design process, especially gameplay gardens.
This is awesome content, please keep making more videos like this!
I just uploaded a playthrough of this game it's so fun i can't wait for more levels. Idk how game dev works and idk how hard it is too implement something like the workshop but i bet the workshop modders would have fun making level's for this game. 👍
I live for these devlogs, by far some of the most informative and inspiring devlogs I've seen.
I watch them again whenever I'm feeling down in my development journey.
*Godspeed, Blargis.*
I feel like Celeste is a good example of a game that allows the player to discover hidden depth in the game. That game has a wave-dash mechanic that the player isn't taught at all (until the post-game dlc level) but that the player can discover on their own anytime and wave-dashing unlocks a lot of hidden/unaccessible paths to the player. What I'm trying to say is, the deeper/hidden mechanics shouldn't be the only way to beat a level but should instead be a way for the player to beat the level in a different way.
This is the best devlog series of all time
Dude, I just played the first level after watching your "1 Year of Developing My Game in Godot" video. I cannot describe how much fun this game is. The soundtrack is killer and the movement mechanics are awesome. Bravo my good sir. You have earned a subscriber, play tester, and future customer
Wow, it really shows how the game grows along with you. I fully support the idea to "appeal to a fewer audience, but make the game more unique or spicy", this is the way of art!
This is absolutely the video I needed. I've been working on a 2D speedrunning platformer for some time now, and I think the core components are pretty much all there - but I recently hit a brick wall with level design. I'd repeatedly open up the project with the intent of designing a new stage, aimlessly place blocks onscreen, and quickly decide I hated anything that I made. The gameplay gardens idea seems particularly helpful - instead of thinking of the level as a whole, I think making gardens to discover certain "elements" that can be placed together will make the level design process orders of magnitude easier.
Just added this to my wishlist, looking forward to the demo!
I love your videos (and your game). One of the main reasons is the way you share your process of learning a game dev / game design skill and then share the application of that learning via the playtest for Bloodthief. Genuinely, this has made you my single favorite gamedev youtuber, and makes me really excited for the game you're eventually going to release. Keep up the absolutely fantastic work, thanks for making content (and games).
Dude if i were to say everything i wanted it would take like 10 lines of words and words, but maaaaaan this is absolutely incredible and inspiring! I want to make games myself and i'm just starting, and as i progressed through this video i felt so well instructed and guided, that i felt i could do a level design myself, even tho i don't even know how to code, so yeah this video is awesome and i can't thank you enough for it.
Your are a crazy good story teller I must say. One of my favorite series on TH-cam. Game Dev encompasses so much stuff its kind of crazy. Interior Design, architecture, game design, texturing, sound, coding. So much to learn, so much to pull from.
I just played the most recent playtest... holy shit man. this game went from like a 7 or 8 out of ten to litterally one of the most engaging games i have ever played. you are cooking. stay in the kitchen
best devlog series
This was a GREAT video. I'm excited for the game.
The thing about yellow paint isn't about telling the player where to go, but that it's immersion breaking and doesn't fit in the world. Environmental pathing is important in almost every game. I'm sure there's some youtube vid that does a great job of explaining it, but I tend to condense it down to Eyesight/Eyeline. Lights > Paints. Paint is obvious, but lights tend to draw your eyes. We are trained to associate lights with directions in the real world which is why it works so well in game design. There are things that can communicate to the player without being paint. Architecture, Lights, Textures, environmental story telling like dead bodies, blood splatters etc.. Whenever I get lost in a game the first thing I look for are environmental clues, Specifically lights.
The problem with adding those in, say, RE4make? A lot of the game is already in broad daylight. Lighting up interactables wouldn't stand out. Unless the light was flickering or something.
Ngl i was one of the people that dropped the game at 13:25 when the inital demo came out, i tried getting in, fell out of bounds and decided "mhmm yeah im gonna do smth else this seems a bit raw rn". But its really cool to see how youre improving the game, i'll prob come back to see how it has shaped up
To help you out here with one of your points, I think what makes mystery in a game feel GOOD to a player is not when the game is deceptive, but when it rewards exploration and trying out new things. Take the castle door at 12:51 for example, you could maybe make the giant gate open when approached, but perhaps if you explore into the water, you get a shortcut. Or perhaps off in the castle you can see some rubble and an opening that the player can spot, then they'll try and navigate and investigate the rubble, making the player go the direction you want while feeling smart. Perhaps there could be multiple entrances. Try and reward exploring, while not deceiving the player, because there being a giant gate that doesn't work, just makes the player feel tricked, and like it doesn't make sense.
Along with 12:48 the reason why it's frustrating and not an "aha! i get it now!" moment, is because it FORCES you to have that "aha!" moment, rather then letting the player feel like they're almost outsmarting the game.
I love how much you're learning about game design! It's great to see
I love this trial and error approach to sharing insight. I’ve watched a lot of game design videos that come from a ‘in the know’ perspective, and I often come away feeling demotivated somehow.
This video makes me want to go make levels with what I’ve just learned and have fun doing that. So big thumbs up, thanks!
These videos are amazing bro. As someone with no game development experience just a gamer you are definitely on the right track.
First off, love the videos, super interesting and insightful! Secondly, on the topic of mystery and potential player frustration, I think from a player's perspective the best way to make those elements land is how invested the player is when they run up against a roadblock like that. If you've already been playing it for a while, gotten into the groove, you are enjoying the gameplay loop and then you hit something like that, I find that I am far more likely to try and push past it, whereas if a game hits me with a roadblock within the first couple levels I am far more likely to just give up because it hasn't given me a reason to care enough to spend the time to figure out whatever mystery or puzzle it has presented me with.
The game looks more and more stellar like always, but these dev logs are also extraordinarily well told! Love the effort you put into making these so high quality and fun to watch. It helps communicate the way the game feels so well.
I don't remember if you've mentioned Neon White as an inspiration in previous videos, but I definitely see the influence. I suggest looking back at what the designer does for those levels. A lot of the levels allow paths that are slower, but require less mechanical knowledge, but if they want that faster run, then they need to learn that skill.
Something else to consider is a ghost for pathing the slowest run that can be toggled. This way players have the option of whether or not they want the help when completing a level.
Man this video came at the perfect time. Level design is such a struggle with everything you need to think about and the iteration time is exhausting.
I like how you are approaching this man, i wish you all the success :)
Thank you for taking us through this journey of learning! I love it
seeing a youtuber indie game make it longer than a year in development is very in my experience, i'm excited to play this when it comes out
@11:29 A good tip I picked up about player training is from Valve developer commentaries. I think it went something like:
1. Introduce a concept to the player
2. Verify they understand that concept
3. Add that concept to other concepts as a test
or something to that effect.
11:10 you could always add a wall with a gap at the bottom in that area to signify to the player you need to slide and it also teaches the player that they're faster when dashing then sliding with the moving spikes
for the gate specifically i think there should be more hints surrounding to make it clearer to the player that is the solution, say some jutted out parts of the boundary hills to entice players to jump on them.
it's like a puzzle game tutorial, you don't want to give the solution away but you still need to make the path to that solution clear to the player.
I use trenchbroom to make quake maps and 15:30 is so real I have gotten so much mileage out of that arch prefab thing, especially for my beloved gothic architecture
Edit* OH I totally have to try that swatch technique the next time I get back into mapping
your videos covering all of the struggles and successes during your godot game dev journey are really enjoyable, funny, and insightful. I love them.
I love your process and your journey! Keep going Blargis!!
I LOVE BLARGIS!!!!!!! thse videos are amazing man keep it up! we're all excited to see your growth :)
Doom Eternal did this pretty well. Gives you your skills one at a time, makes you master it before you get a new toy, then you get a new toy to add another skill, etc.
11:00 Portal is really insanely good at this. You spend a _long_ time only being able to play with one half of the portal gun. Then there's a whole region where you learn about the cubes. And then you finally have both halves of the portal gun, and you have entire level designs where the whole focus of the level is exactly one concept (speedy thing goes in, speedy thing comes out). Turrets eventually stand in your way but you know what they are because you've seen them behind glass the entire game, and you have the tools to avoid and kill them (portals underneath them, dropping cubes on them, etc - sometimes you have multiple different ways to do it, sometimes the game's "chokepoint" is that you _have_ to do it one of the two ways. Either it's standing on an unportalable floor, or the ceiling to drop a cube from is unportalable).
^ I'd really try to integrate all of these concepts.
1 -> each level only teaches one new concept.
2 -> You've been exposed to a concept before you actually have to learn it (e.g. you saw cubes falling at velocity through a portal, before you had to pass your own body at velocity through a portal. And you saw turrets many levels before fighting them.)
3 -> There's a character and storyline. E.g. imagine a villain that has ghosts swirling around him and you're only chasing him for Chapter 1, for Chapter 2 his ghosts begin to attack you, and Chapter 3 you have to fight him.
==
One thing I remembered Portal saying they did was have a long line of "fresh meat" to throw into the game, and they'd watch over their shoulder from Level 1 to see how it goes. It was only after doing that a bazillion times were they able to make it so clean and polished. The moment they play the game, that player is "tainted", and can't be used to test the fresh game again.
mega man x sequelitis pretty much explains what you're talking about here
I don't know anything about game design, and I know this wasn't what you intended with this video, but you actually got me thinking about my approach to writing fiction narratives with the way you approached this project
I learned so much more than I expected to in this video, so much important information condensed in such a short amount of time and communicated well. I really like the swatches idea and the concept graph!
I can't get over the little boots sticking out during the slide 😊 I love this game.
The quality of these vids is unreal. Keep up the good works. Excited for the final product
One idea that could be good would be to incorporate some of the more challenging (but optional) ideas as little secrets to be found in levels. Like make a path that branches off but looks completely impossible to do. You could even make some areas that would essentially be above the normal level route. Getting up to them could give you a chance to try things out, but falling wouldn’t even kill you, it’d just take you back to the normal way you’d go. This would encourage experimentation and replay ability. A player could play the level once, think, “I wonder what was over there?” and then they could return to it later. This could even work well if it requires a technique that isn’t even necessary until later levels.
The game is really coming together! Great job. Thanks for the video!
1:43 genuinely the realest thing I've ever heard
Level design started out as one of the most difficult things for me to approach in game dev. I enjoy it a lot now. Thanks for sharing your experience man. Great video.
This is a really great standalone resource for level design on top of being a devlog.
Your enthusiasm and willingness to learn new concepts and apply them is inspiring. Gets me motivated to make my own game :)
This is such a great devlog. Funny and insightful as always. I often struggle with level design and how to approach it and I really like this idea of gameplay gardens. I will have to apply it in the future.
Blargis, you my friend have amazing videos. I love watching the evolution of your game and your knowledge.
i think you should change the spiked walls a pikes celling at 11:00 to make sliding more intuitive, like thinking you'll be able to barely make it out with your reduced hitbox but then finding out it gives you a speed boost
the "gameplay gardens" concept feels like the level design version of a sketchpage, just playing around with rough concepts. I'd never considered it for level design but it makes so much sense!
I'm currently in a game development class, and I've got to say, a lot of these things are actually really helpful! The gameplay gardens and swatches are definitely a good idea, though I'm not sure how the latter will translate into 2D (maybe just tilesets? or something similar since there will be fancy lighting, particles, effects, etc.). I also really enjoy watching game design videos, and was glad you brought up GMTK's mystery design video, as I enjoyed that one very much as well. Here's to hoping our games are successful (I'm sure yours will be, it looks awesome)!
I've always wondered why my test zone felt more fun to play around in than my actual levels, but what you said about levels not being too linear is a really good point and is probably the culprit
Definitely the best devlog series I have ever watched
This is all such good insight and such an enjoyable video. Love this
45K subs with like 10 videos. True quality content in video and game design.
Really cool, entertaining and insightful stuff there man. Not the biggest fan of that kind of game (reminds me of ultrakill) but as a beginner Gdev every video is a joy to watch.
I started my game dev journey a couple months ago and I'm slowly learning the fundamentals (it's kind of impossible to start making an actual game until I've gotten the basics of godot down).
Videos from creators like you are what keep me motivated, I can't freaking wait to start this stage you're in, where no video can really TEACH you how to do it, you're just experimenting until you understand it intuitively from lessons learnt. Like I can watch this 1000 times but I doubt it'll help me much until I go through the process myself. Level design scares me but I'm looking forward to learning it.
Loving how the progress is coming along! Excited to stream it 😉 would love to see a video on how you collect your play test analytics and how you put them to specific use!
Thank you for making a game with fun and playful movement it’s refreshing to see and has a nice aesthetic
At 11:45, that is pretty much the "flow zone graph" that you reached, an important bit in gamedev.
If there's too much new things to learn (aka difficulty is too high), it leads to anxiety/stress for the player, and if there's too little (player learned the skills needed, was made to repeat the exact same challenge a few times, or the challenges are too easy at that point) it leads to boredom, like you described.
Staying between those two lines (or, in your analogy, letting the snake digest the rats a bit before giving it another one) is as you've found the key to keeping the player engaged, or "in the flow zone".
Also, if you worry about the tutorial sections, having a non-linear way to skip them by using the same trick when coming from a previous area would allow the experienced players to get through them faster while also ensuring the trick is still needed. Although for the ones shown here it seems like it's quite quick either way, so it's probably not a concern.
For the case of players being stuck in level 1 with the same issue, but not wanting to give out the solution freely; There isn't really a great way to handle it, specially since the solution is already quite a common one for games. If they're not exploring that much before giving up, how much further would they even get in the game? This might just be filtering the players that wouldn't enjoy it already from the get-go.
But if you really want to try a few alternatives anyway:
1, you can have environmental details that lead them to the solution (like only slightly off-color textures near where they should go, or decreasing water opacity), though this might be a bit too close to the yellow-paint issue
2, slowly drip-feed them hints (I assume voice lines/text here wouldn't fit the game, so water bubbles/sounds sometimes playing near it to draw attention after a minute or two have passed would be better)
3, having a non-linear route (or route that opens up after a while, like the gate opening and enemies flooding out) that does end up leading you to the same place, but slower, and upon reaching it the players may notice the intended and faster route they missed
4, slightly redesigning the area so that it's more likely they fall into the water at some point and realize it's not an immediate fail state (like having a longer bridge with holes, or the bridge being up, or a larger moat with some interesting island on it like having a sword stuck in it)
Then again, a lot of this is a lot of extra work, and I'm not sure if it's needed since finding guides or asking for help online should also be an option. But at least it's a few extra ways to deal with it, if you feel frustrated about the current way you've made the level.
this running over roofs is giving me very good thief-vibes.. wonderful
13:31 This part reminded me about a certain zone as a new player in Rain World, The Exterior.
I remember as a new player being SO frustrated when going through the Exterior, especially The Leg And Underhang.
Because it is a zone that requires a lot more of knowledge about the game’s main mechanics while introducing new ones, and especially ramping up the difficulty. (New enemies, Complicated Parkour etc)
And I remember as a new player straight up rage quitting that zone, because it WAS frustrating, and VERY unfair.
BUT sometimes imo, i feel like you gotta have that one obstacle in a game you enjoy, that one thing you remember struggling with for it to be an experience you will remember, and this part in Rain World in particular, while at the time made me Throw my laptop.
I would give everything now to come back to it as someone who knows nothing about it again.
Now some players might’ve gotten and gave up there, but taking RW as an example again, for the players that see it through, and stick for the hard ride, a lot of time they will see this game as something special, so i feel like you should also see players leaving at that part a certain way to filter out the ones that aren’t your target audience.
Not a game designer, but I hope my comment can help with that. :)
this game reminds me so much of ultrakill.
when you get in the zone and the enemies stand no chance, man..
also the graphics and the general progression of it's development
Been following your adventure and even though i'm into filmmaking it's been really pumping me up for making games, very interesting and informative !
I LOVE YOUR GAME AND THE UPDATE WAS AMAZING!!!!(It would be extremely cool to some day get a level where at the start you just choose one of two paths and play completely different routes) edit: first route could be castle styled and the ither a forest
Your game looks so fun and so sick. Keep it up bro.
I really liked that moment of discovery with the castle level. But I can see how it's hard to find that line. Interesting stuff
Amazing video, will be watching future videos from now on :)
love your videos found your channel recently and binged threw the content on Bloodthief, and it has inspired me to learn to make games. Thanks for that.
Regarding discovery versus being taught, personally I would tackle it by teaching the player the fundamentals/requirements to play the game, while leaving self discovery for the extra parts. That way they won't just get stuck on a level without ever being told what to do, but it also still allows them to be creative and find solutions and hidden mechanics that can make their time even better.
I currently have 3 ideas on how to implement the self discovery this way:
1 - Hiding a key somewhere on the level that you need to know hidden mechanics for, and it leads to an extra part of the level that is harder because it can assume you know these extra mechanics where maybe there even is a boss.
2 - Extra/bonus levels that are either always unlocked or unlock after finding a secret that do basically the same thing but now as a standalone. Just a new level where you can freely assume the player knows "everything" (at least more) and can thus be more free in design.
3- Have multiple intended ways to get past (some) obstacles, these obstacles can be either parkour or enemies (maybe even both) and let the player go with an easier route that takes longer, or do the tricky route that they might not even realize exists or is possible depending on if they know the mechanic needed. This can be fun for speedrunners specifically I think.
I think 3 is definitely the trickiest to design for but might be the most rewarding as well.