I was WRONG about the Primordial One | Genshin Impact Theory
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 18 ธ.ค. 2023
- Wei's amazing video in question: • 𝙳𝙴𝚂𝙲𝙴𝙽𝙳𝙴𝚁𝚂
This is a speculation and theory video about a discussion we had relating to Primordial One, Descenders, The Second Who Came, and the Gnosis. Maybe I am overthinking this... Or maybe I'm right, by being wrong...?
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#genshinimpact #mihoyo #animerpg - เกม
![[3.7] Piecing Together Ancient Teyvat - A Genshin Impact Timeline Theory](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JoPIIKaYUW0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[3.7] Piecing Together Ancient Teyvat - A Genshin Impact Timeline Theory](/img/tr.png)
Shoutouts to Wei's cool video~
th-cam.com/video/JE-AhDX4p64/w-d-xo.html
It's not just that they hide information, but it's also that the sentence is poorly worded, probably to confuse lore crafter. So for all lore crafter out there not just Genshin but any game that lore heavy, i salute you all.🫡🫡🫡🫡🫡
🎉@@recentmap7268
The lore in the Flower of Paradise Lost artifact set, the crown piece in particular talks about how invaders from beyond waged war against the primordial one, and brought breakthroughs to the land, causing the Master of the Heavens(presumably the primordial one) to freak out and send the nails down to end the war. That really doesn't sound the the second who came was buddy buddy with the primordial one.
Slightly further down in Before Sun and Moon is the paragraph "The Second Year of Sun and Moon". There it is clearly stated that the people of Enkanomiya thought "the Primordial One must have defeated the Second Who Came". Since they were banned from returning to the surface - until Orobashi created Watatsumi - they had no way of knowing who actually won. One of them might have subdued the other which lead to them cooperating after. Or they stopped the war to fight against a common enemy. At this point we know even less about the second descender than the third.
From one of the artifact sets in Sumeru - I think it's called the Flowers of Paradise artifact set - it pm confirms that the PO won.
Neuvi's stories also pretty much confirm that PO won. They were greatly injured, but they still won.
Damn I didn’t think of the comma explanation for second throne of heavens came lmao.
my thought process was basically the war of vengeance mentioned in Neuvillette voice line confirms that there are 3 descenders present at that time.
And this war HAS to corresponds with the war in the funerary year because the scale of destruction is the same.
There is only 1 war in this period of time at this scale of destruction, and NIBELUNG was the one that CAUSED this war.
Therefore the war in funerary year consist of 3 descenders,( classifying Nibelung as a descender )
so I initially thought second throne of heavens doesn’t necessarily mean second DESCENDER, because my hypothesis was the Shades just came to Teyvat and got captured without a war. ( like the twin got capture by the unknown god in less than 5 minutes without a whole war) i just thought they descended as a group and immediately got captured by P.O and they don’t actually have the “throne/authority” to be called the second thrones of heavens.
So I assumed the second thrones of heaven is just Nibelung, because he is trying to reclaim the thrones so somehow he is the third descender but referee as “second thrones of heavens” because he was going for the throne
BUT UR COMMA EXPLANATION ACTUALLY EXPLAINS IT SO MUCH BETTER LOL
I could as well be wrong 😂
I think hoyo definitely try to misdirect us that's why the confusion. The main conflict in Teyvat which we wasn't sure about before (primodial one versus someone who destroyed the heavens) is basically just the same war from the start: dragons versus gods/heavenly principles. I dont think dragon king is third descender though I mean if he was then wouldn't Skirk just tell Neuvillette it was the king since she knew he is a sovereign from his "power smell". He wasn't even sure what a descender means.
" just the same war from the start"
Might be why the first thing Dain says in the Travail trailer is, "the war has already begun, it is just a continuation of past battles."
The way I understood is that:
1. Primordial one arrived to teyvat fought the Dragon king.
2. Dragon king lost, to get revenge he go's outside of teyvat and get contaminated by forbidden knowledge.
3. Before the war of vengeance of the dragons, the second who came descended to teyvat (just like the twins).
4. Some time passed after the second arrived, and the war of vengeance of the dragons began.
5. The primordial and the second fought the dragons together and defeated the Dragon king.
6. Teyvat was in collapse. During that time, the third descender arrived (with his agreement or not), and they transformed him in the gnoses to save the rest of teyvat (while the rest of the planet became the Dark sea.)
I wouldn’t say the rest of the world “became” the dark sea, I believe the “dark sea” is an analogy for unexplored lands that have no actual rulers and/or are not ruled over by the sovereigns or archons. Think of a modern day country, without a government or government head.
This is how i see it too
Seems logical to me
this makes the title "2nd throne of heaven" make SOOO much more sense. Because they were friends, they both had thrones
I thought they meant throne as in the type of angel
@@wuttatota148 idk Christian mythos to know if there's a type angel called a throne..
What if the second throne of the heavens actually means... a successor? An heir to the throne? A second... dynasty, perhaps?
Keep in mind that it's "and one who came after", not "and the one who came after", meaning that the Second Who Came may not have been the one who helped the Primordial One create the Gnoses. It's just one tiny word, but it makes all the difference ^^' According to the wording that we have, it's even possible that the Third Descender helped the Primordial One... or maybe it wasn't a Descender, but someone else who came from beyond. There are too many unknowns at the moment.
Tbh I actually like it when I’m completely wrong about Genshin lore because that means the writers effectively threw us off and I’m impressed that it makes a lot of sense. The closer we get to Khaenriah, the more it becomes as heavily sci-fi as the Honkai universe.
Sea of Quanta here we gooooo
@@shuragaming4836 That can happen because Alice can jump to other worlds
There's a book in the Narzissenkreuz worl quest you can look at that states that a Descender isn't just someone from outside Teyvat, but someone with the power to change the world. The simplest answer to why the Abyss sibling isn't a Descender is that they don't have enough power. That might be why they turned to the Abyss, just like the Dragon King did.
But they were literally twins... and if Mihoyo says they are both cannon despite the fact we cant choose between which one we want as the traveler, then they should be roughly the same in power. Plus, that explanation doesn't take into account the weird fact about the Abyss sibling just appearing in Khaenri-ah out of nowhere and having no prior existence recorded in Irminsul. Also, why is their records sealed? It's all too suspicious.
I strongly consider Narzissenkreuz to be the epitome of an unreliable narrator. He states that he BELIEVES that to be what makes a Descender but he's also proven to be quite wrong later in the quest as regards actually stopping the next flood or saving anyone from it. He says that it's because he didn't account for the Traveler but...his doomsday clock was completely off of when the flood happened and at the end of the day nothing Traveler did either hastened or stopped the flood, that was all up to Furina/Focalors and Neuvillette and would have played out more or less the same way whether or not Traveler was present. So...I think we have to take that dude's pronouncements about how the world works with a massive grain of salt. At the end of the day, he's just muddling through trying to figure things out via non-firsthand information as much as any of the rest of us.
@@lahie16 For them being recorded in Irminsul, I always assumed it was that someone wrote them into the tree, in a similar way to how Wanderer erased himself. As for them having a power difference or not, I don’t really know. I ‘m just speculating too.
I think the answer to all tis lies in the fact the Sibling doesn’t actually have a strong enough motive to change the world, after all they had just arrived in Teyvat and were suddenly imposed with the task of doing so on behalf of the first Nation they encountered, however since this world didn’t yet give them a reason to change it, they failed to become a Descender and due to Dainsleif’s meddling the never experienced the wonders and challenges of the world’s peoples so now they are basically trying to cheat using Forbidden Knowledge and Abyssal Power to try to achieve such status anyway, even then they are still failing so…
In other Words: the MC does and hence they are the 4th Descender.
I'm not sure about second throne and primodrial one fighting. BUT in Neuvillettes story it does not say "the usurper and the second who came" but it says "the usurper and one who came after ". ONE who came AFTER. It does not specify which one of those who came after the primordial one. So it could also be, that the third descender helped creating the gnoses and sacrificed themselves. In this case the war between the second and the first still could be possible.
I had the same thoughts as you but then someone pointed that out for me and it does make sense.
To add, it's the EN translation that says "the one who came after". From me checking, in CN and RU translations it's more of "Another latecomer"(CN) and "Another alien from outside" (RU). So not only is it not hinting at second, it never even talks about descender, just aliens, who we know now don't have to be descenders just bc they're from outside of Teyvat. It could still be second, but it's not the only option and nothing specifically points at them in those translations
@@spieds9994 yes, in German too! It's very vague and we can't say if it's second throne, another descender or just someone who doesn't belong to teyvat
Just to add a bit that only clarifies a bit on the wording, it's the EN translation that says "the one who came after". From me checking, in CN and RU translations it's more of "Another latecomer"(CN) and "Another alien from outside" (RU). So not only is it not hinting at second, it never even talks about descender, just aliens, who we know now don't have to be descenders just bc they're from outside of Teyvat. It could still be second, but it's not the only option and nothing specifically points at them in those translations. It could be anybody from outside of Teyvat
I think "As it was in the world's creation" explains alot. It literally means "As how it all begun", the feud between dragons and the primordial one, rekindled.
The reason why the twin isn't a descender was already explained this update.
It's in a paper that says not every outlander is a descender and that they need a will that rivals an entire world.
That doesnt explain why the sibling isnt a descender. What makes them different from the traveler? We dont know, so it doesnt explain.
@@LeaksHater It does. It means they don't have a will that rivals an entire world. It's simple deduction.
Don't know what you're not understanding there. Almost every genshin lore creator agrees with this fact at this point.
@@ahamilaag192 Hold on. What do you think I am disagreeing about?
Because we know they aren't a descender. But why? Why do they lack the will that the traveler supposedly has, while they both are the two sides of a coin?
@@LeaksHater I see. You could've worded that better but it's alright.
Anyway, although we don't know for sure there can be a ton of different reasons for that even as simple as they're different people even if they're twins.
So archons do grant people visions, but they don't control who gets it.
That still doesn't explain why electro visions stopped being handed out during the Sakoku Decree.
The will of the archons likely plays a subconscious role in the matter. At the time, she didn't want humans to have visions, so maybe subconsciously no Electro-matching wishes were being granted as per her will.
I still don't like the idea that Nibelung is the Third Descender because, for me, no matter how you slice it, Nibelung was "contaminated" with forbidden knowledge and if his remains were used to make the Gnosis, the Gnosis would still be to dangerous to be manipulated by anyone. Even if the other two Descenders managed to change it into something else, like that elemental being from Apep did. More importantly, if the two Descenders managed to "purify" the forbidden knowledge into something safe, why didn't save Sumeru from Eleazar and the Withering earlier? It feels too much of a stretch to me to rely on the fact that Nibelung, an original being from Teyvat, getting power from beyond was enough to make him a Descender...
ALSO the notes in the Narzissenkreuz Ordo states that "That is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that can protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, AND create the world." not OR. So, to make themselves actual descenders one must have a will that rivals the entire world and being capable of doing ALL FOUR of the characteristic stated in the note, not at least one of them.
For me, Nibelung can't be the 3rd Descender because he originate from Teyvat. You can't say that he come from outside of the world when Teyvat is his birthplace. It likes you tell me that you walk outside of your home for work and return back at night and you become the stranger. It just weird.
He definitely isn't the third descender, he's native to teyvat
@@senatuspopulusqueromanus2082 i know. it's just that I had a heated conversation on hoyolab with someone insisting that he was. and now, every time someone even entertains the idea of nibelung being the 3rd descender, it triggers me 😅🥲
watch hoyo makes a complete twist and dragon king isn't even native to teyvat! XD. Imagine that it's actually like a champion's title kinda thing, which after it could also rule over other sovereigns.@@senatuspopulusqueromanus2082
I mean, I kind of doubt that the Third Descender is just going to end up being some random person we still have absolutely no information about, and out of all the characters, Nibelung really is the only character we currently have that can fit the bill. He's the Dragon King so he'd obviously be compatible with all of the elements, Apep also mentions that the Dragon King died, but then a few lines later they mention that the Dragon King returned which is also really suspicious. The possibility that after the Dragon King went outside of the world to gain the power of darkness, that they were effectively reborn when they returned to Teyvat and due to that being considered as something from beyond doesn't seem like that much of a stretch if we consider what Apep said and we think of it as Nibelung being reborn (The Third Descender could also be Nibelung's Successor kind of how Neuvillette is the Successor of the Dragon Sovereign of Water). Skirk does also mention the Gnoses being "objects of misfortune" so they're obviously not clear of suspicion either. Finally, we still also cannot effectively prove that Nibelung did or didn't posses such a will with all four characteristics.
But in end, we'll have to wait and see what decision HoYo makes/have made.
I don't like the idea of Nibelung being the third descender for a couple of reasons:
1) I don't think the dragons would call an outsider their king, especially after they had a war with the Primordial One and the Second who came
2) Since the Authority of the Seven Dragon Sovereigns had to be taken and stored in the Gnosis, I would assume that the Gnoses have no inherent elemental power. I don't think it would make sense for the king of dragons, a species with a high elemental affinity, to have no elemental energy in his remains.
I think it would be more safe to assume that the Third Descender would be a being similar to the Traveller, who is able to store energy from all elements, and use it freely. Heck, it might even be possible that the Primordial One and the Second who Came deliberately summoned the Third Descender to kill them and turn them into the Gnoses
well the first reason doesn't work because apep herself is gathering forbidden knowledge.... that's the reason she ate deshret.
Also why shouldn't they call nibelung their king? he left and returned to be labelled a descender, it's not like he literally became a different person. He's still nibelung.
also I won't say the 2nd one is wrong, but neuvillette never said the dragon authority is in the gnosis, in fact neuvilette still had the gnosis (before giving it away) and it was focalors who had to die, not destroy the gnosis.
1) The idea is that Nibelung left and returned, getting labelled as a descender. He was already the dragon king, and so he remained.
2) If I remember correctly, Nahida's story says that the Gnoses are a reserve of huge elemental powers. So they do, in fact, have elemental energy.
Also, it's possible that the Gnoses don't hold the Dragons' authorities. The divine throne of an Archon does. That's why Focalors had to destroy it to return the power to Neuvillette, and he was okay with giving away the Gnosis.
The authority of the seven dragon sovereigns weren't stored in the gnoses, they were stored in the "divine thrones" which are likely up in Celestia.
The gnoses are simply able to "resonate" with Celestia and connect to those thrones for those the authority doesn't belong to.
That would makes sense if we assumed that the second who came and the one who came after are the same individual. But the thing is, in Neuvillette's story they could've just said " the PO and the second throne" or "the PO and the second who came". Plus if u compare between the descriptions and the terms used to describe the war between the PO and TSWC in Before Sun and Moon, and the war described by apep between Nibelung and the heaven, it sounds nearly identical. See, both of them ( TSWC and Nibelung ) brought forth illusions and forbidden knowledge that almost lead Teyvat to the verge of collapse. Unless these were two different conflicts that resulted in the same aftermath which, in my opinion, is less likely to be the case.
My favorite fan theory that I read is that the 3rd descender is the prince in book "Pale princess and 6 pygmies"
I’ve seen theories say the same and that he’s also the prince from the battle pass and the second who came is the princess
@@BlueDaisy33 while I thought the pale princess was tsaritsa
The popular theory right now is that Dainslef is the Third Descender (or perhaps the "human remnants" of the Third, similar to how Focalors split her divinity and her body/soul apart) as well as the outlander who fell in love with a seelie from the story of the moon sisters.
And that Paimon is that seelie.
Given that both of them suffer major memory loss to the point of knowing nothing of their own past, it's becoming quite likely.
I'm sure once Natlan drops, we gonna get more stuff that will change our understanding.
As someone already pointed out, the book later says that One "must have defeated" the Second, which might be wrong, but makes it very clear they were in conflict. It also doesn't mention anything about a third outsider, meaning that must have happened sometime after Enkanomiya sank. The Third must be the dragon king, because the Gnoses contain dragon powers and calling him a "throne of the heavens" just doesn't feel right. So, my best guess is that One defeated or formed a truce with the Second, but was wounded in the third war with the dragon king, and needed help from the Second to seal him away in a bunch of chess pieces. And now the Fatui are seemingly trying to put him back together.
I think that the war of vengence is not the same as the one of the Second throne.
Amazing video like always! And I agree with all things you said. One thought that came to mind was: About the abyss sibling. In the sumeru archon quest at the end Nahida told us:
"According to the records I was able to acess, your sibling suddenly appeared in khaenri'ah. After the khaenri'ah disaster the sibling began their journey through the seven nations of teyvat. BUT just as their journey was about to reach its conclusion, the Irmensul records on them suddenly become fuzzy" and then nahida goes to say: "All I know FOR SURE is that somebody, for some reason only they can know, is deliberately obfuscating their fate!"
My thought was: What if our sibling was a descender but someone manipulated irmensul. The descenders have no 'data' in irmensul, but can you 'give' data to irmensul? By messing with their 'fate' to avoid the outcome of whatever happened to the 3rd descender, like becoming a gnosis? Why do I believe someone could do that is simple because of Nahidas words that follow after the above: "And whoever it is (meaning the person who messed with the abyss siblings fate), if they can do that, who knows what else they're capable of!"
But there are many unanswered questions that come to my mind: What exactly is this 'fate'? Why did the abyss sibling suddenly appear in khaenri'ah? If they aren't a descender how did they 'appear suddenly?' What is the 'journeys end'?
It's just some random thoughts I had, if you read this much, thanks for readind lmao!
Love these lore videos! @GenshinGamer999 has some really neat theories as well that weren't mentioned here regarding Lumine being from Teyvat.
"Nibelung obtaining power from beyond this world" doesn't necessarily mean abyssal power. It could mean he found an ally, from beyond, like a "decender" to come and help him
Apep said he "gained the power of darkness from outside" the abyss existed beforehand as the void realm, also Apep herself is gathering forbidden knowledge, which seems to be highly linked to the abyss
Let me help ya pal, according to before sun and moon, it was stated by Abrax that 7 dragons only participated in the war. If Nibelung was the leader of the seven dragons it would only be logical that there would be 8 dragons not 7. So the question is why did before sun and moon only mention 7 dragons? The answer is simple because Nibelung did not participate in the war against the primordial one but instead he left the front lines and went beyond teyvat to search for forbidden knowledge. If ya watch Apep's lines it said that Nibelung returned with the power of darkness to combat the primordial one and once again war was rekindled. Which means that this is the second war that took place. Which only makes Nibelung the second who came. Since it was the second who came who weakened the borders of teyvat allowing the abyss to invade teyvat. Well that's all for now I'll leave the rest to you guys for now.
Also, I always interpreted "The second throne of the heavens came, and war was rekindled, as it was in the world's creation." as the war between the two was, in intensity/destruction, like the one in the world's creation. Or that the two were fighting over rulership of the world, just like the first war between Phanes and the Seven Sovereigns...
TBH there is another goated theory by a TH-camr named My Name for Now who made Diansleif is the 3rd descender. It's a two parter video
Interesting takes, definitely looking forward to more lore drops now 👀
I got into this trap actually. It doesn't say the second who came, but the one who came after. Meaning 3rd descender is also considered the one who came after. More over we know that gnoses are the remains of 3rd descender, meaning we can say that power of 1st and 3rd descender was used to create Gnoses which adds up perfectly with Neuvillette lines.
Worth noting: The text in Neuvilette's story that says the gnoses were created by "the usurper and one who came after" is slightly different in the original Chinese. Instead of "one who came after" it's "another latecomer"
So it might not be the Second Descender or even a Descender at all. It could have just been another outsider that didn't have the necessary will to be a Descender themselves.
It's also entirely possible that the "second throne of the heavens" means the second ruler to follow after the original Primordial One. Like... a second dynasty.
In hindsight yeah the description is misleading but there is ",and" all along which meant two independent clauses. So it meant that the second who came did not wage war against the primordial one. It's just that that he came ",AND" the war rekindled.
I feel as if there are also 2 other possibilities. The dragon king could be the second who came. Maybe you were in fact correct about them going to war, but perhaps they later became allies due to the 3rd descender. Another option is that the dragon king isn't a descender at all, and was already in teyvat before the primordial one, and everything apep mentions took place before the second descender and we can just attach either your theory or mine for what comes after, the only difference being that we no longer know the identity of the second or third descender. Just something to think about.
still wondering how the body of the 3rd descender could even manipulate the elements
I think you need to do fonatine world quest and read rene notes about descender
I am in the small camp that thinks Dainsleif is the 3rd descender camp.. 😂😂
You mention misleading text from Hoyo? How's this: Neuvillette never says the Primordial One worked with the Second. _The line never says that._
I see a lot of people assuming that "one who came after" is the Second Who Came. I'd say it is almost certainly _not_ the Second, just by the way it's worded. It doesn't say "the" one who came after, nothing is capitalized, and there is no mention at all of it being a descender. We know that there can be many outlanders coming to Teyvat who are not Descenders. For that matter "one who came after" could even be one of the shades, a moon sister, the traveler who fell in love with the seelie. It could be anyone at all. Just assuming that this is the Second Descender - who would have no reason we can name to cooperate with the Primordial One - is a leap, and I don't think it's warranted. In fact, I'd guess Hoyo *wants* us to assume it's the Second, just so they can surprise us with their identity later.
Everyone be consulting the wiki for their theories, meanwhile my brain at 3am:
Haha snow white and the seven dwarves, seven archons, snow white is paimon, and shes now sleeping (turned small), one of the descenders poisoned her, and one of the descenders is actually her lover and genshin is a tragic romance.
You may be interested in "My Name For Now"'s latest two theory videos, then.
He goes into detail about all the connected dots while declaring that Dainslef is the Third Descender, and the outlander who fell in love with a seelie... who is Paimon.
What if our sibling's identity as a descender is removed from Irminsul? Or maybe our sibling didnt create enough impact on teyvat to be considered as a descender?
are you assuming that the dragon king getting the power outside meaning he has to leave outside teyvat? can he just receive the outside power from someone from within teyvat?
He's back!
I am thinking a descender earns that title via arriving in Teyvat through their own power. It's implied the Abyss twin was SUMMONED in Khaenriah. Meaning they don't count as a descender since it was not through their own power they arrived in Teyvat
i just thought of something, its definetly a stretch, but what if, albedo,durin, and the travellers were created by chemia? if they are created by chemia by rhinedottir? that explains the similarities between traveller and albedo ( because albedo was an imperfect creation of 'aether' creating 'aether' was much harder than creating lumine, hence when the time was supposed to come, rhinedottir used dark abyssal powers that are ' out of this world' to create aether, hence aether is the 4th descender, while the abyssal sibling was created perfectly without any mishaps., rhinedottir might have been outside khaenriah during the attack on khaenriah, around the cataclysm, rhinedottir, was far from khaenriah in mondstatd, percisely, dragonspine. rhinedottir created them to 'save khaenriah' and sent them from dragonspine in that golden light thing we see in the introduction, but unfortunanetly, one of the siblings fell half way there and didnt reach khaenriah, the other one DID infact reach khaenriah but was too late to save them, the one who didnt reach( us) eventually forgets his duties, and the one who did reach was too late to save khaenriah and ends up escaping, and meeting with dainslef, for the sake of this explanation, the one who didnt reach khaenriah will be named ( aether) and the one who did reach will be (lumine), now lumine would go on to adventure with dainslef and eventually end up finding chlothar, assuming that rhinedottir was EXTREMELY powerful, she might have sent a message to khaenriah before the cataclysm that a special siblings are coming, the prince and princess of khaenriah, assuming that rhinedottir being extremely powerful, she could have been a VERYY HIGH RANKING NOBILITY in khaenriah,she might have even been CLOSELY related to ermin the THEN king of khaenriah, chlothar being nobility would know of this message by rhinedottir and would realise that who he is speaking to, is the PRINCESS of khaenriah, now the abyssal sibling would understand her duties and would go with chlothar to try to ressurect khaenriah and create the abyssal order, that might be why, the abyssal sibling says something about understanding the TRUE nature of this world, that HE is the PRINCE , that understand the reason for his arrival into the world, even tho he was created for malicious purposes, just like elynas, he is innocent and doesnt like to cause harm,the story about him coming from OUTSIDE teyvat might have been a 'fake story' made by rhinedottir, as a explanation for how a creature who has NOT yet been registered into Irminsul came, i believe Irminsul is located not in sumeru, but somehwere deep inside khaenriah, we know that khaenriah is underground, and we also know of a particular 'sage' who went under the ground in sumeru, under the ground in sumeru? its khaeinriah around the same time khaenriah was established, so the abyssal sibling might have registered herself in Irminsul. ngl this is just me spitting some theories, its like 90 percent wrong im sure of it, we do some funni theorizing,til we understand what has become of caribert,the more about that god damn dragonspine area, because imo the most mysterious place in the entirity of teyvat, isnt sneznhnaya or natlan ITS GOD DAMN LIYUE AND MONDSTADT, we have nO explanations on ANYTHING, especially the fact we just GO with venti being a creator made by one of the GOD DAMN 4 SHADES OF THE PRIMORDIAL ONE, and mondstatd being a nation which was co-ruled by ISTAROTH ONE OF THE BIGGEST MY STERIES IN GENSHIN IMPACT as she just magically disappears somehow, and liyue's archon zhongli being MORE THAN 6K YEARS OLD, to put that into perspective, we now talkin bout the 2nd descender and 3rd descender and how primordial one is the oldest order and all, did u know ZHONGLI WAS HERE BEFORE THE GOD DAMN PRIMORDIAL ONE EVEN ARRIVED!?!? HOW CRAZY IS THAT and you want me to believe he doesnt know anything? nah bros def on a contract wit de primordial one
My theory is that the third descender is the other traveler who joined the abyss. They did some ritual so they could be connected to irminsul and the world which granted him the status as the prince (kinda like a initiation) which put them in a copy of their body and giving them abyss powers. Still have no idea why this would be right/smart or even possible but i’m still gonna believe it 💀
I'm confused, I thought the first descender was speculated to be the Sustainer? As per Nahida lore drops? I assumed the Sustainer and the Primordial One were different beings entirely.
I thought the same as you since they say that the second who came took the place of the first who came kinda acted like the first who came cause the actions after on teyvat were not making sense from the behave from the first who came. So I don't think we got it wrong i think it's simply the lore clashing with itself.
tbh I still have trust issue when it comes to information recorded in Teyvat.
I mean Sumeru's 3.2 "Akasha Pulse" and 3.3 "Inversion of Genesis" has already shown us that data on Irminsul, and by extension, memories of Teyvat can be altered (except the "encrypted" data stored in advance); meaning some informations could be added intentionally, modified, or even removed completely either partially or entirely
you don't even need to look elsewhere, Sacred Sakura Tree existence and [Redacted] are the proof of this
so you know the 2st, 2nd, and 3rd already met each other.. then many years after, 4th came late.
But what if Third Descender collaborated with Scond Who Came and they had beef with Primodal One again or just Second Who Came had status quo with Primodial One untill third pretender appeared and he noticed his chance to strike Primodal One again. There is so much options that arent said straight in that sentence
Thank you
Isn't Zhongli a descender, too? Does that mean he's the second? Maybe the 1st descender is why he has a "contract" keeping him from sharing information?
Zhongli doesn't fit the bill of a Descender despite being an exceptional oddity amongst the Archons; he's more of a God-King, like Deshret and Remus
You should make theories on things like:
Azdaha can’t be the geo dragon cause zhongli made him and there are some things about the sea between port ormos and inazuma having a monster
My current crack theory, an amalgamation of countless wonderful lore videos and my own observations is as follows:
0. The original primordial one was the Dragon King. He was the origin of Teyvat, not a descender. The world under him was a wild, unbridled one, devoid of concepts of "right" and "wrong", "life=good", "death=bad" (Like Elynas and Durin were just playing around, without realising the suffering they cause)
1. The first descender was what would become known as The Heavenly Principles (and later Paimon). She descended and thought "hey, this world's messed up" and waged war against the Primordial One. She ended up winning, usurped PO's authority and banished him from the world. She then plants Irminsul, overwriting and restructuring the fabric of reality and transforming most of the dragons into humans. (Apep calls Nahida, the avatar of Irminsul "the life so dear and precious to the Heavenly Principles")
2. Then comes the Second Throne. They fight against HP and lose, but unlike the Dragon King they end up being recruited by HP and become the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles.
3. The Dragon King, now reduced to "descender Nibelung" returns and fights the Heavenly Duo with his new abyssal powers. The Heavenly Duo are victorious, kill Nibelung and make Gnosises (Gnosii?) out of him. The abyssal power gets locked up somewhere separately.
4. Deshret, not a descender, somehow gains access to the abyssal power of Nibelung and defeats HP, dethrones them and throws them into the ocean (reducing them to "Paimon"), but ends up sealed away by the Sustainer, becoming the Sinner. The Sustainer is forced to watch over the now-empty throne.
5. We arrive, the game begins.
P.S.: The reason I think Paimon is HP is because as the story goes on she seems increasingly more and more sus. In particular, in the finale of "The Golden Slumber", Paimon gets excited when seeing Deshret's throne and says: "Hehe, this chair is huge! Paimon feels like just sitting on it is gonna make Paimon super great!". Upon the reveal of the chair's functions, she says: "Eek, thank goodness Paimon didn't sit on that throne... Guess sitting on a seat that doesn't belong to you really doesn't end well, huh?". Moreover, the Dottore's knock-out rays work identically on Traveller and Paimon.
Also, if we assume this theory is remotely correct, we might end up helping HP, seeing how we seem to enjoy her version of Teyvat and Paimon's our character's best bud.
Vague storytelling. Hoyo does that all the time. They either pull that or pull the "unreliable narrator" card.
I am glad many others catch on to this. Whilst I think Genshin's story telling is great, it's not the masterpiece people make it out to be and this is why, this is the very tactic they use to carry a lot of their storytelling. It's very sneaky, they give a portion of the story/detail and then leave the rest out for people to speculate on.
I think.. this is a safe way of cutting out inconsistencies without having to fully establish a narrative because if you don't have the full picture, you can't draw lines under anything or come to a full conclusion for the story.
I don't think there is a single quest/story narrative in this game so far that we have 100% of the picture for, no matter how close we get, it's never complete and that's not so bad necessarily but in Genshin it's more noticeable than I have ever seen in any other fictional medium before.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks hmm I think you see it the wrong way here. No, Genshin story-telling is really really good as it is. Even tho most people don't see which parts are truly good and which parts are just there for shows.
Let's think of it: story-telling in a continuous sense is more fun this way, no? you can theorycraft as much as you want, using the slightest detail other people might miss. the world is big and full of hints. it creates discussion between people who actually try to pay attention.
if they info-bomb everything or force everything to be straightforward and consistent in one go, it wouldn't be fun, no? Story-telling technicals, useful tools of analysis for story-guessing as it is, amount to nothing, in the end,
compared to actually making a topic meaningful to talk about by your audience.
You want to keep people wondering, until the very end. because when they wonder, their imagination come into play. and you know they are hooked to your story.
@@F1ll1nTh3Blanks How one views the quality of the vague storytelling comes down to one's belief as to whether it's being used as a tool for creative storytelling or being used as a crutch, which itself boils down to whether you assume HoYo is writing a well-planned story vs. winging it. This is ultimately just personal bias.
LOST is an example of this method of storytelling, and it was used in both manners. Many questions ended up answered, some of which so absurdly simple that it's a facepalm moment that we thought it was any more complex, but then again, that's the nature of mysterious circumstances. When nothing around you makes sense, it's hard to know what aspects have complex, unknowable explanations and what is very simply explained.
Yes, some of the story ended up padded in the middle because the network didn't want the show to end, but even once they locked in exactly how much of the show would be left, the story still continued to use that method of storytelling, because that's part of the fun of consuming that story. My dad and I would talk theories every week and it was probably the best media consumption experience of my life, and that's part of why I love Genshin. Pulling off a long running story with shifting perspectives and giving the audience things to chew on and speculate with while not showing your whole hand isn't easy, and making sure that it all ties together in the end especially so. That said, 1.0 and the early patches of the game seeded a LOT of foreshadowing for things we're still unraveling today that are fundamental to the world.
Consider that when the game launched, we already had ley line blossoms and artifacts, which are all producing condensed memories from Irminsul. We had no idea what the hell was going on there, mechanically, until much much later, but a fundamental part of the world's functions were defined enough that they were used as the foundation for some of the game's core systems.
Obviously, the absolute specifics aren't filled in until they are needed, and you wouldn't want to lock yourself in too hard too early because developing an ongoing story requires some degree of agility and flexibility. That said, they still continue to follow Travail's path. Each chapter has a theme they intend to tackle (and I believe that each nation's theme is a piece of the larger puzzle in ways that the game doesn't make an effort to point out at all) and they were structured this way because they knew what the end of the story would look like and what major experiences they wanted you to have, deliberately shaping your perception as you made your way toward that end.
Honestly, I feel like having a story that ends up coherent in the end is only possible if you have a strong outline to start with but leave flexibility as you progress. Your story will waffle and waver without a foundation to tie everything back to, but will buckle under its own weight if written too rigidly from the start. It takes great skill to successfully land the execution of this kind of long term story that feels coherently connected from its back to its front. We'll see if HoYo manages it.
I don't think the dragon king was the 3rd descender, I think the 3rd descender was some random being from outside Teyvat, much like the traveller and the abyss sibling, except in their case they were defeated.
I feel like everyone's ignoring the very heavy, on-the-nose foreshadowing left by Neuv and Paimon on their conversation with Skirk. They foreshadowed who the 3rd Descender is and I don't think it's Nibelung at all.
I don't like the notion that Nibelung is the 3rd Descender because he doesn't fit all the criteria from the Fontaine world quest to become a d
Descender and because if he was contaminated with forbidden knowledge, then the gnosis would be too risky to handle and give out to the archons, like even they couldn't fully purify eleazar and the withering, it wouldn't make sense. Many were killed for being in posession of Forbidden Knowledge, why would Celestia hand it out to the Archons like that in the form of a contaminated Gnosis?
A better alternative imo is that since the Sibling got sent to an earlier time than we did, and we're the 4th Descender, the Sibling would be considered the 3rd. It's hinted at by Paimon and Neuv that the gnosis may have similar properties to the Traveler, which are unique to the Traveler and... their Sibling. If the Gnosis are the Sibling's remains their properties and power make sense. Also it would explain why the Sibling isn't considered a Descender in the Nahida quest -- They have passed, and the Sibling we see is a copy (like Doctore's) or a puppet (like Scara) made in
Khaenri'ah, that's why they aren't considered a Descender as their body was, literally, made in Teyvat. If Irminsul can be changed by Scara it can also be changed by beings as powerful as the 1st and 2nd Descender when creating the Gnosis. It'll also give the Traveler a reason to work with the Fatui (making the Harbingers and Cryo Archon thus playable) in Snezhnaya if they're working to revive their Sibling.
To me it seems like SWC is the 3rd descender. Its "The Second Who came After" in CN, and we already have "the one who came after" being the one who helped PO who fits the 2nd descender better. (After would refer to after PO).
So:
1st. PO
2nd. The One Who came After
3rd. The Second Who came After
"Who came after" suggests to me that they came after the first rulers, the dragon sovereigns, not that they came after the Primordial One.
@@DrakeWurrum I would say it like this: Primordial One implies the First. For Humans, that's who is the original ruler.
@@LeaksHater - I would be inclined to agree if it weren't the case that Before Sun and Moon is where that term is exclusively used.
The very same text that tells us about the original seven sovereigns.
And in that whole text, it's only phrased that way ONCE: When it states "the Primordial One must have defeated the Second Who Came" which was entirely speculation on the part of the scribe of Istaroth, as Enkanomiya had sunk into the dark sea before the war of vengeance could end.
in the rest of the text, the term "throne of the heavens" is used, and only mentions the first or second of them. And the term "Second Who Came" is used in that one instance shortly after explaining how the "second throne of the heavens" came, when war was rekindled.
Interesting... I'm wondering if the second throne may not be a Descender. Before Sun and Moon was written by the people of Enkanomiya, and they wouldn't know much about the second throne since they are trapped under the sea when the war started. If the second throne is Nibelung who returned from the world beyond with the power of darkness, people at that time would have no idea about him and thought “something we don't know descend from the sky.”
the sun and moon book is written by the scribe of Istaroth the god of time, im sure they definitely in the know of what's happening.
Also we know that, not all that descends is a descender.
I offer a unique theory about the Dragon King. He's the ruler of Khaenri'ah, and when we sought out the power from the lands of darkness, he dispatched the traveler's sibling, who then was turned by the darkness (Abyss). (Theory taken from the Gnostic Chorus) Of course this distorts and skews the timeline, but we don't really know the exact timelines of the various wars other than the Archon War was a few thousand years ago... But nobody said how far back the War of Vengeance was, when Nebilung rose up and acquired the power of the darkness.
I have seen an alternate theory suggesting that the ruler of Khaen'riah was an incarnation of the Primordial One...
And that their whole thing is that Khaen'riah stole Nibelung's genesis pearl to take control of Teyvat.
Okay I'm not heavy into the Genshin lore but seeing others in comments affirming my suspicions as well I can say that the Dragon King cannot be the third descender. Not that I have in game lore proof but technically speaking in most cultures dragons are existences that are tied very close to the world. They are the mightiest creatures of their world free of the influences of Gods and one of the reasons why the leylines are also called Dragon Veins. Some cultural aspects also suggest dragons to be the manifestation of the will of the planet. As such an existence named Dragon King would be the mightiest one born of the planet's will. Even if one were to defeat a Dragon King they don't become a dragon king themselves unless their existence is mightier and is also rooted to that world/star.
Nibelung would be the 1st ruler of Tevyat before the Usurper took the throne from him. Him being the 3rd descender won't make sense unless they count leaving Tevyat and then returning with more power as 'Descending' as well
{In the whole para, I'm talking about dragons as in True Dragons, any sort of Normal Dragons or Lesser Dragons(Vishaps in GI's case) are most likely born through evolution of certain species who were influenced by the presence of a True Dragon}
I still think your sibling is the third descender she live and die and is now she live/born again (immortal)
she say she live a life already and she predict you come to the same conclusion when we too come to the end of the cycle!
YEP you need to do the latest wq and read slice of paper near the tower. the words "descender" don't really matter now. everyone can be "descender" and you can easily input any data to irminsul, i still dont believe what nahida said she literally took that information from irminsul
Did we play the same WQ? That page basically said that all Descenders are outsiders of Teyvat but not all outsiders are Descenders, meaning that there are special requirements to be considered a "Descender".
There can be multiple outsiders, but there are only 4 Descenders so far.
Imagine Teyvat just another bubble universe who ruled by Sa.
Maybe the Dragon king went outside of the genshin world and stole something it shouldn't have(abyssal power) from the 2nd who came. 2nd who came then chased the dragon king into this world where the dragon king fled after obtaining the abyssal power. When 2nd who came to the genshin world, they joined up with Primordial One to fight the dragons again.
Also on the who is the 3rd, I think it's Kate Kaslana.
So who is paimon again??
There is a detail i want to point out mentioned in before sun&moon, it may not be totally true the author of the book was the scribe of istaroth(the one who betrayed her king or the one and she didn't totally accepted her king's order) i mean. In the parable of king's garden lore, the king wants to cut the tree but istaroth created a new tree but having same knowledge like the one was destroyed(the king wants to destroy world tree or the previous era but istaroth creating a new irminsul or the new era or cycle)
And the istaroth has a full authority on the time so she can rewrite the history or can change the points on the timeline so we can't totally trust that books lore,Before the war primordial one giving his blessings to his/her people but after the war he/she destroying his/her people. So why could not be phanes was not the winner of the war or after the war istaroth betrayed him/her and usurped his throne and created new cycle without phanes and new tree(İrminsul)
Yes its very interesting for sure. You know whats even crazier?
Think of this possibility of an allegory-
King : Primordial One
Gardender: SWC
Tree: Dragon King
Priest: Istaroth
I've lost my mind
I thought gardener was the irmin(king of khaenriah) and the tree is the irminsul.That actually tells us why the tree's name is irminsul but i agree that the gardener might be the SWC i think istaroth made a contract with SCW and the first tree was corrupted (forbidden knowledge came from nibelung) so phanes want to cut down the tree but istaroth didn't do what primordial one said so she created a New tree but there was already have the forbidden knowledge maybe istaroth corrupted bc of forbidden knowledge too or she used forbidden knowledge to create new cycle and she destroyed all of the people who knows phanes and lied to the people (just like enkanomiya;the war is ended and the ptimordial one banned all of you) so the people thought primordial one. Won the war,Primordial one still alive) but actually the New throne was the istaroth and she ruled celestia with heavenly principles,we saw the three gods in celestia in genshin impact webtoon and i have a theory about what they are or whose they are: The 3 sisters of fate. The moirais or norns from greek and norse mythology and their design also familliar to the moirais or time keepers from marvel(whose also the reference of fate sisters) the triquetra also means the cycle of the past ,present and the future
In narzissenkreuz ordo noted there's a reference of fate sisters
To excise the self is not to die, but rather to die before death. That way, there is no life to be ended. Thus may one achieve eternity. This step is vital, for by this, may one avoid receiving a Vision by some error. To receive a Vision to [sic] sell oneself to the "fate" of this world - to Heimarmene, and to evermore lose the chance to walk the correct path
To "fate" of this world Heimarmene
Heimarmene or Himarmene /haɪˈmɑːrmɪniː/ (Ancient Greek: Εἱμαρμένη) is a goddess and being of fate/destiny in Greek mythology (in particular, the orderly succession of cause and effect, or rather, the fate of the universe as a whole, as opposed to the destinies of individual people). She belongs to a family of similar beings of destiny and fate, which have given us various modern concepts (such as Aesa, Moira, Moros, Ananke, Adrasteia and Pepromene).
@@IslandXDalso there is triquetra on paimon and one of the black serpent knights who was in chasm called paimon a tyrant "fate"
Edgetho: ...Companion of that tyrant, "fate," the traveler known as "calamity"...
The "Heaven" and "Earth" was rent asunder.
Primordial One (Earth)
Second who Came = Celestia (Heaven)
Dmn that’s a heavy lore drop
Praise the day when people stop mixing old world and new world lore. Because you are just confusing yourself.
Let's assume that what had happened in Teyvat was a part of the project ARK from Honkai Impact 3rd.
Assuming that The Primordial One is Griseo. Upon arrival to Teyvat, she had warred against the dragons, then rebuilt the civilization and created humanity.
When things had seemed to be settled down, she went back to Earth and informed everything to the remaining Mantis (such as Kevin, Su, and Hua who were still alive at that time).
And let's assume that Aponia was also still alive.
Griseo brought Aponia back to Teyvat with her, assuming that Aponia is the Second Who Came, and that had made all the dragons got mad and lost their mind for some reason.
And then the dragons rekindled the war.
However, the 2 Mantis were too strong, the dragon king had no choice but to seek help from outside of the world.
And that help was from the abyss, which definitely is a Honkai being, and this would make that Herrscher (or whatever Honkai being it was) a 3rd Descender.
Griseo and Aponia had killed that Honkai and made the Gnoses out of it for unknown reason, and then BOOMED! whatever would happen, did happened in the story after that!
THE END!
Thank you for reading!
I think you're lacking of information regarding Griseo and Project ARK. Since CH40 we actually know what happened to Griseo cause Hua found her in the current story arc.
@@nacht9139 I know that she had been hibernated on Phosphorus for a thousand years before Hua got there. but there was a time gap between the time she set sail and the current story, which, if I remember correctly, she had traveled across the universe and went back to Earth more than once. We don't know yet what else she'd done before she got stranded there or even what she will do after the chapter 42.
By the way, sorry for my bad English.
@@KiiztCh we know what happened. She visit Mars and some other planets of our solar system. The whole Event Story of 7.1 is a Canon Story what she did during her time traveling across the universe. The whole time she was watched by Vita and Sa cause Vita planed to use the ARK for Phosphorus. After she departed from earth a second time, she got caught by Vita and the ARK got stranded on Phosphorus for 3500 years.
We also know what she is doing right now cause CH42 already ended in CN. She stays in Phosphorus, which is called Qiming now, as a City Agent and watches over the City with the Help of Misteln. She also is in contact with the others on earth through Su.
@@nacht9139 ohh okay sorry, my bad. I've not read the event story yet and I already forget about she's being watched by Vita and Sa as well.
I will try to think of another copium theory then. lol
i think it’s just right to assume at the moment that nibelung could be the third descender. on the first war between the primordial one and the seven sovereigns, there was no mention of the dragon king joining them.
the second war then happened but the scribe who recorded the events on before sun and moon did not specifically mention that this war was a second round between the primordial one and the sovereigns. this was a war between primordial one and “the second who came” and it was rekindled. the scribe could’ve mentioned about the dragon king but they didn’t. it doesnt align with how apep says that the dragon king led them to fighting the primordial one again.
personally, i think… if the second who came and primordial one really worked together… the unknown goddess is the second who came because why is their purpose “to sustain”?
spoiler if you havent played the narzissenkreuz ordo world quest:
it mentions this:
“This, too, is my goal, for not all that comes from beyond may be as one that “descends.” That title belongs only to wills that can rival an entire world.
That is what I seek, the way to become just such a will, one that protect the world, sustain the world, destroy the world, and create the world.”
create the world - primordial one
sustain the world - unknown goddess
destroy the world - nibelung with forbidden knowledge
protect the world - traveler
also this with the proper translation:
the sustainer is fading away, the creator has yet to return. but the world shall burn no more, for you shall ascend to the seat of the god.
I can’t get the thought that we (the traveler) are the third descender. The twins could have arrived that long ago and the abyss twin has been awake the whole time. It took them joining to get our ‘human’ half freed from Celestia. They had to basically die and be reborn to get abyss powers (like Jakob) which puts them in irmonsol. Our “remains” that make the gnosis are not the remains of our body but of our power. Kinda like if you chopped up Focolors and left Furina there. Since Hoyo likes morally grey; I think the unchecked power of the dragons would have destroyed the world if they weren’t attached to our power (as a conduit) then given to the archons. Tevat was an attempt to hide humans from the Honkai behind the firmament and it’ll turn out that the twins need to play that balancing role to keep the world from annihilating itself
What if The Second is Gold? It was the first thought that popped into my head, but I'm sure I'm wrong
Maybe Neuvilette lied. How bout that?
I honestly would love to play Genshin Impact if it was set back during the great war instead of right now. Looks more action packed than what we have now. I can imagine that game being an MMORPG where there are different factions, between poeple outside khanriah, people of khanriah and maybe even dragon people. I hope hoyoverse eventually makes an MMORPG. Being able to really play an anime style MMORPG from hoyo would be a dream come true for me. If not in the world of Teyvat, at least do it within the Hoyoverse where each faction coming from the different games, Genshin Impact, Honkai Impact 3rd, Honkai Star Rail and ZZZ. That would be incredible. Peak gaming.
Don't feel bad, i think just about everyone made the same mistake regarding the arrival of the 2nd. I think the way it was worded was confusing, and is likely the cause of the misunderstanding.
Something tells me.. your a ganyu guy 😅lol
Im Early!!!
Nicesuuu❤❤❤
First
Nibelung rekindled the war, you guys are actually illiterate
You go around circles too much. You repeated the same thing like 5 times just in different ways. Kinda annoying tbh cos I’m watching and waiting for you to get to your next point but you just hover around the same one.
fontaine was nice but pointless.
again a archon who dosent know nothing and wasnt there...
why are we in teyvat?
Uhh.. because a God trapped us there? It's not like the twins chose to be here and even their initial arrival sounds like it was a summoning rather than a voluntary decision.
And considering the amount of lore there's been in Fontaine? I wouldn't consider it pointless at all.
Pointless? We got lore bomb after lore bomb my friend
Lumine died, she is the 3rd.
It would explain why she is a part of Teyvat. She could be a clone with implanted memories of the original through Irminsul.
But the timeline doesn't match. For that to happen the twins must have arrived before the Archon War, which they didn't.
@@zelktheinvader7874 Well to be fair, we don't actually know when the sibling first arrived. 500 years is the absolute minimum but other than that we have no idea when they were summoned.
Lmao that's very dumb
@@zelktheinvader7874exactly and let's assume she did die but that will make the whole genshin story pointless cuz if she died after traveling through teyvat then how did she tried to leave the world of teyvat alongside her brother only to be caught by the unknown god? If she was dead long ago then who woke up aether? Cuz we know the female sibling woke first and travelled through the world of teyvat with dain and then the cataclysm happened so how could she die and be alive at the same time(trying to leave teyvat after cataclysm) it sounds stupid to me