I met Ken Wong at a networking event at my university. Given how much I'd loved monument valley I was keen to talk to him, but in that brief conversation he mocked me and undermined my opinion. I had originally thought I'd done something to piss him off. Kinda comforting to hear that it wasn't just me.
"Never meet your heroes" 😬 I hope we as a society will do something about this. Maybe a safe childhood would be The Thing... I have lived very close to these kinds of issues. Small companies 👎
It's human. It's a side effect of our group dynamic. The one telling on one from within his group, instead of solving it within the group, is seen as a destructive element. The action being morally right, or important for us in the fight against this type of behavior has unfortunately no influence on the emotional response. We dislike snitches, no matter how justified their action may have been. We already learn that at school. Don't tell the teacher about your bully! Solve it yourself! If you tell the teacher, it'll only get worse! The fact that teachers usually don't know how to react (because they lack the needed training) usually also makes it worse, conditioning us further... It's a structural issue really
The "speking up can hurt your career" part is one of the strongest tools abusive leadership have in order to silence criticism and keep employees scared. It's almost never true though, at least not to the extent people make it out to be. The gaming industry is a global, multi billion dollar industry employing hundreds of thousands of people, that "everyone knows everyone" is a myth perpetuated by people who want it to seem like they have more power then they actually do. Yes, speaking up can hurt your career in one company, perhaps, but no one individual has that kind of power in an industry of that size.
It’s insane that non compete clauses can exist too. You could be harassed to hell at a job and find another in the same industry that will treat you better. Whoops even if you’re fired you can’t go to that other job
@@Adrian_of_Arcane_Lore - I feel sad to respond only to say that... you're wrong. I've spent a portion of my professional life as a consultant and/or independent. As such, I've seen a lot, met a lot of people and had access to people that many haven't and seen the behavior of select people behind closed doors (of course, this isn't always bad - sometimes it's great, but that's not what we're talking about here). I've seen this type of toxicity occur across industries so often I'm unable to count. It's absolutely true in the majority of cases. Moreso about bringing negative things up within an entity, but also about a single individual or small group of people wielding a disproportionate amount of power and/or influence. This is all just my personal experience. That's a drop in a metaphorical bucket. Consider how much more is true. Why are you invalidating what others' say? How? Look at the United States - or the world, for that matter. Consider the percentage of people who hold the most wealth, influence and power. Connect dots.
I didn't realise how messed up and abusive the situation was at a VFX studio I worked at was until the job I had afterward. The boss in that job said "good job" to me about something I had made and I nearly cried. I didn't realise that for almost 2 years I had just been ground down by an asshole that constantly ripped apart my efforts and made me feel worthless. It's taken me years to properly piece myself back together and feel proud of my work. Though I'm about to take the plunge again into the world of VFX in another country so we'll see how that goes.
Sometimes a small compliment is all you need to know that there's someone who appreciate what you've done and help you gain the confident you need to continue doing it.
When I got out of a major 3rd party games QA house after many years, I came to this same realization. The whole industry is stuffed with cancerous people, and corporations who will go out of their way to defend the status-quo instead of actually making things better. So happy I'm with a team that actually cares about each other and values each other's work now.
My brother rather pointedly mentioned that the shift from practical effects to VFX is always painted as "well CGI is just cheaper!" And that's true! But part of the reason that it *is* cheaper is because the practical effects people are part of a union. VFX is not. So the abusive practices that are rife in the entertainment industry AND the tech industries are cranked up to 11 with zero protections for the people who do the work.
This isn't really an "indie games" problem, it's a "small organizations" problem. It can happen anywhere there's limited visibility, lack of countermeasures, and power asymmetry. It's easier to end up there as small organizations scale up, and games are a very hit-oriented industry. So we see a lot of people/companies leap out of obscurity to renown and acclaim.
This. Another problem is the capitalistic pressures put on the studios. Small indie teams tend towards shorter development times and crunch times, which contributes to the interpersonal conflict we see. It also puts alot of pressure on devs and designers to stay with a project despite the presence of a abusive or disruptive personality at a lead position.
This is not what it is being made out to be. This is simply a case of an abuser at work. A psychiatrist could explain what is at play here. I have a child with Down Syndrome, he was being driven to school on a small schoolbus, and all was fine until an elderly couple took over that run. Then I noticed a change in behaviour, he was showing signs of OCD. In a child this is more often than not a sign of some form of abuse. So I watched the couple when my son was brought home and surely enough they were abusing him. It follows a specific pattern. The abuser tends to complain about something the person being abused cannot possibly change but wants to. These examples sound like this is how Ken Wong abuses people. However, one needs to be familiar with a lot of forms of abuse to recognise them, as I have Tourettes and pure O OCD I have that familiarity and know what I am seeing when I see it, most people would not, hence they all tried to be reasonable with him, what one has to understand that to someone like Ken Wong abusing people is not a bug it is a feature.
Size really doesn't matter, but I get what you're trying to get at. "Big" companies like Activision, Blizzard, etc, can get away with countless abuse allegations and go on with what they were doing no problem.
It's a "big organizations" problem too. The problem takes a different form according to company history but it most certainly spawns for the same reasons.
As a former UCSC student, I remember Robin would always take any chance to make a lecture about her own games, or personal story. Kind of felt like we touched on her work at least once in every prerequisite game design class. When I became a senior, she was absent on our first day of our capstone class and it sounded like it wasn't even communicated to the rest of the senior staff. I remember the genuine disappointment our other leading professor (Professor Altice) had as he stood alone in front of the class, apologizing to us and reassuring us he would do everything in his power to help guide us in our final year. Robin later made an announcement to the class, basically saying "Whoops!" and that all of us should take it as a learning experience, not just her. And then well... she'd go on to skip multiple lectures in the future for her own work anyways.
Can also verify as she was a faculty in my capstone. Told us we didn't deserve to be game devs because we didn't want to add a feature that she wanted in our capstone game. Then proceeded to sob and attempt to manipulate other faculty members that we deserved to fail. Have some other situations that involved people losing internships because she felt like they weren't good enough, but overall it feels weird to see a video making a topic about it for sure.
It’s funny because she is often a fill-in for Ted Price (who seems to actually be nice) on the Gamemaker’s Notebook. Her cheerful persona seems to be able to put up a facade for those who don’t have to interact with her extensively. It’s depressing to see how much a nice outward appearance can do.
@@kaikaikai6959 that is my impression. People who worked with her for a day loved her. People who worked with her for 6 months realized it was just about self-promotion, emotional manipulation, the facade of creativity and inclusion without genuine results. Can't imagine working with her for years at funomena, I would have built the wall of chairs too.
I feel like the fact that these studios are small indie studios, especially ones that make such heartfelt games like florence, makes it feel that much more upsetting and surprising when you see these stories of emotional abuse. Ir really is as if, in the game industry, i've come to view studios like these as "the good guys".
I work in a small studio as well - let me tell you, these people aren't necessarily leaders, there's a lot of them in every kind of industry, not only in the games one. It just happen that sometimes, these sociopaths get the right opportunity and rise to the level of leader and do this, but most studios are still fine!
Reminds me of how it's pretty common for mom and pop stores to abuse their employees like hell. Small businesses have comparatively much more to lose than big ones and are pretty much always treading on razor thin profit margins.
Makes you raise eyebrows to the fact that the gaming industry was "at risk" when Grand theft Auto vice City came out because of the violence, but you see people actually are getting affected by the creation of the video games and along with corporate decisions to take advantage of the consumer. It is sad. I love video games and I also love rap music as well and to see both industries. Take advantage of the people who make the industries money in the first place is so sad so fucking sad
As a newbie dev, I was emotionally abused by another dev that I really looked up to. It's been years since then, I have no evidence that he did this to anyone else, and it's not like his work got much more than a cult following anyway, so I've always felt like there's just no real point in, like, coming out about it. And yet, to this day, just accidentally seeing his work being mentioned out there is enough to make me feel miserable all over again. This stuff really is, uh... yeah, it's so, so rough. My heart goes out to every other dev, big or small, who has gone through something like this and has been unable to speak out about it.
"... I know she's a net-positive good in the industry..." Holy shit, *_NO._* If you ever catch yourself using THAT argument to justify someone's actions, speak out with a megaphone. That is the single worst possible and most manipulative justification you can come up with. I cannot press enough just how rotten and insidious that line of thinking can be. That line of thinking can lead people down a well they can't escape from. 'They did nothing wrong, i just have to endure for the betterment of others.' When i heard that quote, i immediately stopped what i was doing (i multitask youtube). That's as red as a flag can get.
Exactly, it’s what you do behind closed doors that counts. Someone who does no advocacy but treats people really well is far better than someone who puts on a great public facing persona and abusing employees.
It's very clear that her 'advocacy' is mostly superficial and performative to make her look like the hero, even if she does not realize and genuinely thinks she's an ally. What matters is that she hires people of color and makes a public fuzz about it but women and people of color working for her do not feel well represented and it matters that she ignored advice and criticism from the same people about trying to make the work environment more inclusive because she just has to be the good one, there's nothing to improve because she thinks she's the perfect progressive.
That's how I felt when I left my situation. "Everyone else seems to like her, it must be my problem". A lot of coworkers later told me thier real opinion, which mirrored mine.
YEP Awful people will use the fact that they're inclusive and speak up against injustice as a way to shield themselves from the things they've done, to batter the people they've hurt into silence. It's understandable someone would say that, believe that, because that's part of the reason these people are so vocal about how "good" they are; so you don't think as hard about the harm they do. But good actions taken onstage do not outweigh face to face awfulness, especially when you're going against all the things you say you support
Ever since the wider atrocies of the triple AAA video game industry started coming out, it's so easy to look at indie studios and think of them as "the good guys", and this video shows why we can't just assume that an indie studio is automatically "better" in terms of behavior. Very few indie studios are seriously examined in the same way triple AAA studios are, and I'm glad this channel and these videos exist to do that.
I can't stand the sentiment that "it takes tough people to make games." As someone who has been making games for most of their life, I used to take the "tough on myself" approach to getting through a project. It certainly didn't really help me get any games finished, but it did lead to multiple panic attacks, a general feeling of worthlessness, and a seething hatred of myself and everything I'd ever made. If I'm honest with myself, that mentality severely stalled my progress and prevented me from actually being able to finish any of my games. You just kind of burn out and lose the ability to work on anything after enough of that kind of treatment. Because creativity is not a paste you can squeeze out of a tube with enough force. It has to be cultivated and encouraged. In my case, giving myself a break and not forcing myself to work when I don't have any energy left has actually been incredible for my progress. I've purposefully taken that approach for my current game, and it is further along than any other project I've ever made of this scale. Be kind and considerate to the people who make your games. Without them, you wouldn't have them.
It does take tough people to make games. Except screaming and throwing temper tantrums isn't being tough. That's being a child. Being tough means that you are kind to your coworkers even when you don't feel like being kind. These kinds of projects are a marathon, not a sprint. So, it takes tough people to adhere to realistic and forgiving deadlines and not to push yourself and your team to burnout. It's easy to go through cycles of overworking and burnout. It takes a tough person to say no to that and follow a healthier work life balance. Lastly, the kinds of people that are normally at the heads of companies are not there because they are empathetic. Our society doesn't promote empathy as a skill required for leaders. So, we end up with sadists that love to torture their staff.
“Because creativity is not a paste you can squeeze out of a tube with enough force.” I’m going to be thinking about that for months, in the best way. That’s exactly what I needed to hear right now. Thank you
this comment made me rethink my habits from the past couple years of my life. Some of the most fun I've had when making things was made when I wasn't trying to force myself to keep going, when I wasn't constantly tearing into myself, beating myself into the ground until I didn't even wanna keep going. Some projects of mine I feel pain looking back on because I know how miserable I was making them, even if I do objectively like what the project itself is and it's not really that bad. Like looking at the thing itself reminds me of the pain I went through to create it. These past couple years haven't been too kind to me, maybe I should at least be kind to myself. I don't know how your current game is going, but I hope it's going well or went well.
This just makes me so uncomfortable and feeling sick watching this. I've worked in the film industry, where these things happen a lot too, and I've been hoping for a while to transfer my skillset into the video game industry as a sound designer. But the more I hear about said industry, the less confident I feel. These stories of workplace abuse are so common, it feels more surprising to hear when things work well at a studio. Amazing job as always to the two of you
It is important to note though that there are still those studios in which these kinds of things don't happen. While there is certainly a overarching problem in the space, that doesn't mean that there is no place that is more free from those issues. I'm in the games industry and I'm also queer minority and while I've certainly had some negative experiences I've had just as many positive ones, and the studio that I'm currently at has repeatedly shown a great commitment to inclusivity and care for employees. Just as in every industry, there are good places, and bad places. If you're passionate about the work, there will be a space for you. And the world is changing, progress is being made ❤
Tech industry in general is suffering from these types of issues, but you shouldn't let this stop you from pursuing your dreams. Not all - and I'd even argue that most don't - companies or teams will have these issues. :)
I think part of the reason why it's surprising to hear when things work well is due in some part to that, if things are working well in a studio it's not actually newsworthy or reported on. So it makes sense that we mainly hear about the stories of abusive studios instead of stories where things are better, since we don't have to make noise in the latter.
As someone who has tried to get into game audio. Perhaps it's easier now, but audio is not highly valued in the game industry and is often hard to get into. Many companies use a small number of third party audio focused companies rather then having an internal audio team. Even when they do, they are mainly looking for people who can do implementation over design or recording. Many rely on third party sound effect libraries (sometimes exclusively) rather than design their own sounds. When audio positions do open they are often short contracts (around 6 months) that offer no benefits. Now it's not all gloom and doom, but come to it with tempered expectations. You're experience may be different than mine as I was mainly looking 10 years ago. I do hope you are able to find something and have an incredible time! Making games is fun and working on the audio for them is a unique experience.
This only scratches the surface of the awful behavior of heads of indie studios. This video didn't get into Chucklefish, Team17, Campo Santo, or god-damned fucking Focus Home Interactive. Always remember folks: it's not just the "AAA" industry that fosters toxicity... it's absolutely anywhere and everywhere.
It’s so often that we hear these stories of abuse of power in large AAA companies that it’s easy to forget that smaller companies can have the same issues. Just because it’s at a different scale, the power dynamics and the problems with them are still the same and can be just as damaging to those under the thumb.
It's much worse at smaller companies. There's no HR to complain and given that the reputation of the company is non-existent you can't go public like this. The stuff with Ken is very similar to my experiences, but I don't have any recourse. I can either quit and lose everything I worked for over the years or deal with it.
I talking with Ken at a networking event. Florence was life changing for me and got me through the toughest time I have ever had. I stated to him that I'm good at and enjoy programing, not much for the art end of things but I'm not above developing a new skill. "If we ever need stick figures drawn I'll let you know." I laughed it off and tried sparking a convo about coding languages. "We have enough coders. Bye." The guy with him at the booth mouthed to me what I think was "Run". After that interaction I changed my major from game dev to network admin.
I appreciate you guys doing the journalism on the industry that it seems hard to find folks willing to do. At least as far as video journalism goes on video games, you guys are the only ones I'm aware of willing to tackle these subjects and go to the lengths you do and it's awesome.
Jason Schreier and PMG are the only actual investigative journalists in the industry. I enjoy a lot of writing from other people, but they're not actual journalists. They're largely an extension of publisher's marketing arms.
I disagree. I think every major site I read regularly (Bloomberg, Ars Technica, Polygon, Kotaku, The Verge) has broken at least one major story like this over the last few years. Obviously Schrier/Bloomberg is most famous for this, but he was doing that at Kotaku for years beforehand. I agree that many other sites are basically out there doing press releases and numbered reviews, but that's true for a lot of enthusiast entertainment websites, covering everything from comics to books to movies. Investigative journalism is so much harder and riskier than just fan content. I think it's actually more rare to see TH-camrs doing this work, which makes PMG a really cool and vital step forward for gaming TH-cam as a whole, I hope!
I think the reason this type of reporting is so under represented is because video game media producers think games journalism is reporting on the games themselves and not what’s actually important: Reporting on the people and systems behind the creation of these games.
George Weidman (Super Bunny Hop) has done this sort of work on and off, though he's mostly just been reviewing games recently after dealing with allot of stress and misery after breaking a rather massive story about Konami.
It’s not that people are unwilling to report on stories like this, but more that the industry protects abusers and makes it exceptionally difficult to get any information out. I’ve written for both Destructoid and TheGamer and despite those sites being known, I rarely would get comments from publishers about anything. At times, you have to go with vague info just to prod a publisher response, which sucks. Couple that with how most websites have no HR or legal departments to protect them and it’s a recipe for disaster. You have an entire profession that wants to tell stories behind the things it loves, but can’t because the people creating those things are often silenced.
We're absolutely gutted to report that Funomena is set to be closed by the end of this month, with all contractors already having been laid off as of last Wednesday. This is an extremely sad end to the studio's story and I hope everyone affected is able to land on their feet. This announcement has caught many employees by surprise, who now find themselves looking for other work, with their last paycheck coming this Friday. If you're in a position to hire, there are plenty of people who could use your help right now. Official statement from Funomena: twitter.com/funomena/status/1508938342888615943
Its a real shame but is really an insight into the effects of well done investigative journalism - sometimes they are good like with Roblox and sometimes it can unintentionally destroy a reputation of a studio causing it to sadly close, really shows how important journalism can be
I can speak from the perspective of someone who works outside the game industry: these stories are hugely common in every type of small business I’ve been around over 20 years of professional life. In the end it comes down to weak labor protections for things like this, with employees often having no recourse but to leave and hope they can find a better job elsewhere. Tiny tyrants love to start businesses, it gives them control over other people, and lets them take credit for the efforts of others.
If the last lady is telling other people the details of her employee's personal lives, I bet she is doing the same in regards to her students. It's another position of power, one where she could ask for personal details and most likely get them. Also, excellent work, and I hope you and your loved ones have a safe, happy, and healthy 2022.
If video games never existed, these abusive people in power would still be abusive people in power except in a different field. Robin Hunicke could work at a bakery and then routinely dox the other bakers.
💯 percent this. Honestly, the story about her resonates so deeply with messed up shit I've witnessed in academia. I had the exact same thought about how she probably treats her students. Working in this sector, you notice a very identifiable pattern of people building their careers (even achieving quasi- or outright-celebrity status in some cases) conducting politically progressive research while treating everyone junior to them like garbage. Nothing is quite like the experience of watching someone badger a junior colleague or student to the point of tears...then opening up a newspaper or magazine the next week to read a fawning media profile about how they're supposedly making the world a kinder/better/safer place with their work. I've concluded that bullies and the power-hungry will latch onto any vocabulary that allows them to position themselves as heroes...the content doesn't really matter. The special perversity of shaming other people for "not being as supportive of women as me!" (or whatever) is totally lost on them...
i am an alumni of the program she "teaches" at. i can confirm that she is abusive to students and the other professors of the program. unfortunately, we were all too scared to fight back since she had the power to end our careers before we even got started. on paper she was the one in charge of our capstone projects but she often skipped her own lectures and left work to our other teachers. she was not a positive influence on any of us and anyone who tried to do anything about it (even just saying something) was bullied. she and i had issues from the get go but i was able to keep my distance. her victims didnt have the luxury. i just hope she gets what she earned and that her victims can heal.
@@slugzilla_9875 I'm glad you were able to protect yourself to an extent, though it sucks that the work of getting your degree included having to navigate around an abuser.
Looking up Annapurna brings up articles about how Annapurna Mountain is one of the deadliest mountains to climb. There's a metaphor in there somewhere, but I'm too lazy to figure it out.
So there's abuse at indie game studios, there's abuse at gigantic AAA studios, there's abuse in Hollywood... It's almost like abusive people getting into positions of power is a widespread problem and that we shouldn't assume a place is immune to it just because of the work they produce. Looking at you, fuckin' Joss Whedon. And execs at Annapurna, know what's TONS worse than people finding out that the leaders of the studios you were working with had to leave for being manipulative and abusive? People finding out that you did everything possible to ignore it and sweep it under the rug instead.
It's a widespread issue because of the way hierarchy power structures are instated in the capitalist workplace. But nobody is ready to talk about that yet I guess.
@@mihailoveselinovic7151 I don't think historical dictators, leaders, and royals that cause these same problems here are apart of capitalism. this issue just derives from greedy, uncaring people of power.
@@JustinKoenigSilica It's anti power structure workplace comment as one part of the current itteration of capitalism we have. Do you really think criticizing bad aspects of capitalism suddenly makes me anti-capitalist?
As an Australian, it is disappointing but understandable to see abuse embedded within studios in this country once again see coverage. Our games industry is littered with dead, broken and offshored studios. Despite a talented body of people, job security has been even more of a looming problem than in other developed countries. The reasons are generally beyond control; a lack of investment, inability to compete with overseas subsidy programs, volatility in costs (especially currency fluctuation and infrastructure). Those that stuck around regularly undergo massive layoffs at the slightest excuse. At one point a single studio (Firemonkeys) laid off 1 in 20 of all people working in the industry in A Single Month. As a result, power is highly concentrated in the individuals with financial control over each company. Indie studios are the only ones left after every larger budget studio either folded (Krome, et al.) or was closed by overseas owners (THQ Australia, Blue Tongue, Irrational Games / 2K Australia). While this does open the way for creative small games, it is a lot harder to escape the gravity field of a powerful abuser or fraudster (eg; Julian White at Red Ant) in a small pond. The biggest example of what this leads to is the infamous (and well-covered) saga of Team Bondi.
More people need to see this. Our industry in Australia is really now more or less indie driven. Would love to see studios that do the right thing get more of a spotlight and those that have toxic cultures be made to change, unfortunately it's a common thing here in many industries that the least deserving people end up at the top. We need that culture to really change.
@@meikahidenori Unfortunately my experience with the game's industry in Australia is that a lot of it is extremely toxic. I really came to notice this at the different GCAPs (Game Connect Asia Pacific). As somebody who flew from the West for these events and PAX I ended up attributing a lot of this to Melbourne in general. The general people seemed to be unhinged in all honesty. There were people complaining that Team Cherry wouldn't come to Melbourne to collect their award for the Game Awards. Designing really disgusting monotisation systems, I dead set remember eating burgers with some of the devs where they were discussing how they could really get as much money as possible out of loot boxes and how to basically make the system as dodgy as possible. Ken himself was somebody I avoided on meeting once as I was talking with another about the Arcade when he walked over and effectively negged everyone and then said how inclusive an environment it was "even you'd be welcome" was something that stuck with me, like the fuck he mean by that. I'm glad I never met Robin but met plenty of devs like that. I came to learn very quickly that a lot of these "advocate" types were the worst. For me the moment that I started to really take notice was actually the year Innes McKendrick from Hello Games was doing talks. This was directly after the debacle that was the release of the No Man's Sky release and no public apology etc... It was in one of their key speeches they said "As game designers I feel we have a right to make mistakes". Me and my business partner were gobsmacked at this as what she was effictively saying is it should be okay as game devs to falsely advertise your product. What had as more shocked was they fact the crowd stood up and cheered. We were told by representatives of GCAP that game developers needed to have twitter for communication and on that afternoon we saw plenty of tweets about how "anybody who didn't stand up at their speech was a bigot". This was the moment I stopped defending Hello Games and why no matter how much work they put into No Man's Sky I will never play it as several of Innes' talks were about how all the abuse they got was because she was transgender, never anything to do about the product they released after promising elements that to this day still do not exist. After this moment I started noticing a lot more in the industry I came to find sickening. There is a post GCAP drinks. At first it was just oh yeah fun networking experience but over the years I started to learn what some of the people were actually like. Here I thought we could just share the games we were working on but I got a lot of push back from "oh I don't think that will do well" "as an indie dev you need to make something more unique and different to stand out". "You really need to think about how to keep monotising it after release" etc.. There was a degree of pretentiousness I have never experienced before. I still remember one studio that had been successful saying the same things about creatively different games who's one game that was a success was a platformer and the rest of their out there wacky idea games that indie devs should be working on, were beyond low selling with a very small niche market at best.
@@YukiDelValle Ah yes that's the take away from my post, I used they twice and accidentally typed she twice. Let's not discuss the fucked up pretentious shit they preached to thousands because I used the word she in a long comment. Again you are confirming exactly what I said, everything is about them being trans and nothing about the actions taken or said, as if by me using the word she it dismisses all legitimacy to my argument. Good job proving my point. The same as the person that said they couldn't speak out because "I know she's a net-positive good in the industry". This is why this industry is such a toxic cesspool, we allow people to get away with shit actions due to advocacy and their identity.
Another incredible video from PMG - all these indie "superstars" were people I looked up to and revered as I studied game development at a public university. When I got the chance to go to GDC I hoped so badly to meet some of them, but flipped out even when I was just in the same room. That same GDC was when Game Workers Unite made a big splash, and what they revealed about working in the industry made me decide to never go into it at all. But I continued to think indie games were some kind of exception. It's important to learn the truth behind that narrative, and I really appreciate learning it, even if it hurts.
I think that if you love making video games then you should pursue what you studied. Just know that bad behavior from colleagues and bosses are everywhere and unavoidable.
Stuff like this makes me happy I did so poorly in my high-school computer science classes that I decided to scrap going into undergrad as a comp-sci major with the intention of going into the video game industry. I'm still making tiny games for my own amusement with tools like Twine, RPG Maker, Game Maker Studio, and Unity and I still keep up with the industry, but I'm happy I didn't end up in it full time.
There's always the option of going the solo dev passion project route. It might not pan out, it's not gonna make you rich or famous, but you get to be your own manager and set your own schedule and expectations.
@@digzgwentplayer4159 Yep. Anywhere you go you'll always stumble on a toxic workplace at least once in your life, it seems. It may be hard and close you some doors but learning to say "no" and stand your ground really helps in the long run, opening other doors.
@@Biouke I remember that after I was done with my first job I was thinking that "may be the next one would have zero toxicity?", but no, I was just lucky enough that the harassment wasn't directed at me this time around.
This is fucked up but I think also speaks to some of the reasons unionization efforts are needed. I hear people here referencing wanting an HR person to handle this with, but that ignores how HR is here 1st & foremost to protect the company, and if your studio is owned by its founder, that often means protecting them rather than the team. This is something we have seen time and time again in the bigger companies, and it's highly likely to be repeated here at the indy scale because it is what they know and these managers have seen it protect them. If developers want protection, they need to organize that protection from their side and project their power outward, rather than hoping that the very management that does this abuse will hire someone who will somehow reign them in. That's not how abuse works. It sucks to have to do & it's scary, but if your country lets unions happen, organize & get one. It's the only protection that the workers have any real control over & the only one that will ever really protect them.
Yeah it's unreasonable to expect a solution to come from within the company. It's the whole "they asked the problem if there was a problem" thing all over again.
Can entirely confirm, was part of the writing team at an indy studio, when we unionised, penned an open letter about weird changes to the company values and tried to talk to HR about the COO's conduct, mysteriously all of the signatories were laid off
You hit the nail on the head. You can only expect change by having solidarity on the side of the workers and pushing *back* against the power of the corporation. Anything less allows a monopoly of power. Large power imbalances invite abuse making it inevitable.
Unions, especially at studios, don’t really work. The leads and bad actors just leave and form another company. Then you have a studio with a union and no head that fails and folds. Seen it a million times.
This really hit close to home for me. My first job in the industry involved a level of harrassment from the CEO that still gives me panic attacks today. This is the first time I've actually written about it without deleting what I wrote because I feel so much anxiety talking about it in a public space.
@@Biouke Thank you, it really means a lot and I appreciate the kind words. I'm in a much better place now as I work remotely and my new job is very good to me. I don't think I'll ever truly get over how my co-workers and I were treated, but it's nice to not be threatened with redundancy on the regular.
@@thebestnameeva That's good to hear. It might leave scars but at least now you can detect and avoid those traps and look at the bright horizon going forwards :)
This whole video is why I hate work. As soon as a place says “we’re a family,” I’m out. No, work is not a friend or family hangout, it’s work; I have friends & family, what I don’t have is money, and that’s the only reason I’m working. As soon as a work-place thinks they have a right to know anything about my personal life, beyond legalities, you know it’s going to be toxic, and you should run.
Yeah there are certainly times where that is true, but in highly collaborative efforts like games development it is often highly productive if you have a friendly environment to work in, where your co-workers are friends who you might hang out with even outside of work. I frequently enjoy playing games with friends from work, and it makes collaboration at work a lot easier as everyone is very supportive and people aren't afraid to discuss issues they might be having. However it requires a genuine desire from everyone to have that kind of environment, as well as an understanding that personal information is just that and if anyone doesn't want to share it then that is completely fine for it to work, but if anyone is digging too deep or is willing to exploit personal information for professional gains then it can fall apart VERY quickly and turn into a nightmare so I definitely understand where you are coming from. Just know that sometimes it can work, I've been very fortunate that it does at the studio I work at, but it is probably a good idea to still keep your scepticism when a workplace says that.
@@AusSkiller I believe what you’re talking about is born out of shared work ethic. Even if I owned such a business, I wouldn’t tell potential hires that “we’re a family,” just a simple “get the work done.” Once you do that, yeah, the whole family thing might happen, but that’s not something I would strive for in a work environment. Nice when it happens, but never the goal.
@@AusSkiller Yes but there's a surprising difference between Colleague I get along well with and Colleague who is also my friend If you work with someone and they're also your friend and you see them all the time, the two dynamics *can* blur very easily depending on the people involved. Operative word being *can* because some people can remove the two and separate unreasonable hard feelings. I mean ffs strangers can get personally offended over borrowed stationery, adding a friendly out-of-work relationship to that can make everything 1000x worse or make it not a problem at all on any level and if you say that can be predicted you will find yourself guilty of hubris later down the road.
I don't want to say too much, but I did work with Robin at Maxis, nothing about this video comes as a surprise whatsoever. I left the project that I worked with her on, and would never want to be involved in anything she's working on again
I've seen this exact behavior in other parts of the art world and beyond, where abuse masquerades as valid criticism, and people in positions of authority use it as a license to be assholes, while pretending that it's just honesty, or part of the privilege of being an 'auteur'. And when people are financially dependent on their bosses, it's just going to keep happening.
Excellent piece. I’m a data scientist in banking and the impression I have is that Annapurna are taking massive financial risks in order to enable these toxic workplaces. I’ll likely contact them directly to make that point but also see if I can see if I can identify their commercial bankers to make that point as well. The kind of behavior described here is sickening. Thank you so much for producing this content. You are doing a derive by bringing these practices to light.
A lot of this is why I'm increasingly curious about different organisational structures. Not that it's impossible for something like a co-op to go wrong, but there are too many instances of some abusive studio head who is seen as being impossible to fire, or who is allowed to continue being abusive because they are percieved as some kind of creative "genuis" - despite the fact that all those games are made by *teams* of people. Once someone is elevated to that kind of mythical auteur status, they are handed a cultural and structural importance that seems to disconnect them from a basic level of accountability. It's like building up individuals to the point where there are no longer sufficient checks for their worser impulses, and then being surprised when those worser impulses are exercised to denigrate or abuse others. Clearly things need to change in the industry, and I think a lot of that is cultural. We need to start putting more value into the "soft" skills that support the creative work of *teams* of people, rather than locating all creativity within specific individuals and then placing them on pedestals. But also it's long past time there were different structures being looked at: unions, co-ops, etc.
When indie studios go wrong, it's like a convergence of the worst aspects 1. film industry where the "creative genius" has bad behavior enabled, and 2. Startups, where it's kinda sorta technically a company, but in reality there is no HR, no organizational checks and balances, etc. I'm beginning to think that for any studio receiving certain level of funding, there should be a mandatory HR standards enforced by the funding entity (Annapurna, etc)
Yeah, the hierarchical, authoritarian structure of the capitalist workplace isn't the sole cause of this kind of situation, but it certainly aggravates and enables it.
@@lonelykitchen the majority of popular games are not popular only because they're inherently great - they're popular because the directors have solid contacts, which they typically only have because their primary skills are people-based. What you call creative genius is not even creative at all, let alone genius - it's just promotional prowess. PR+HR savviness. Which is precisely what the real creators often lack. And yes, both sides matter; it does take a cunning "iron fist" type of director to effectively manage a solid creative team in a way that leads to substantial results. However, the way things shape up these days is that people are regarded as expendable, when it's ultimately the people who make the games. The directors just push people around - and as demonstrated here, they often push people around in rather inhumane, demeaning, toxic, disrespectful and ultimately unproductive ways than end up costing a lot of money to the publishers since it easily leads to staff resignation, mental breakdowns, production delays, and all sorts of unnecessary drama. Which is why the work being done here is of tremendous importance, since it will ultimately benefit this industry we all love, as well as the creators behind the games we all love. It's a win-win dynamic, very much unlike that of the present exploitative, toxic paradigm.
@@TheManWithTheFlan Organizational structures are inherently gonna be hierarchical. It's simply more efficient that way. The issue comes in the form of authoritarian leaders, middlemen, and other people being incompetent and unfit.
I wish this wasn't as common as it is, but sadly it happens far too frequently. I know at least 3 more studios working on wholesome games that have incredibly toxic working environments, they haven't hit the news yet and maybe never will - their stories aren't mine to tell. When you have an industry that claims 'you need passion to work here' you create an open playing field for predatory leadership to take advantage of that passion.
@@guptaamey You aren't wrong, but it absolutely is a double-edged sword. Not telling may be needed for convalescence for the abused, but it leaves the abuser clean to do it to someone else. I think in the end, tell is the best, least harmful, most helpful action to known abuses.
Holy shit, that last one. If that’s how she treats her employees, I shudder to imagine how she treats her students. And it’s not a net positive for her to remain in the industry if she’s a hypocrite who hurts and humiliates the very same people she claims to want representation and advocacy for.
I don't have a strong personality myself, not at all, and I still "get games made" It's all about patience and saying "no" to pressure. I refuse deadlines, I just release when the game is in a good state. And here's exactly why I much prefer to self publish. I refuse pressure. To all the artists I commission, I say the same thing: "take your time". Because I'd never want to inflict that kind of stress to others.
14:09 That line is caught my attention. We gone from the old days were formless companies were attached to game titles to to very identifiable personalities. For one side the people who envisioned these games are finally getting the recognition they deserve but as a side effect this could be creating a scenario where you let this kind of horrible behavior to go unpunished because the higher ups wants their own game seller Personality
yeah, this is happening across industries and economies as a response to people complaining about the facelessness of the business world - now, the faces are big and bright, and business owners indistinguishable from celebrities. problem is, the same wrongdoings committed behind a mask of grey facelessness can be committed behind a mask of a strapping young man in khakis
Even beyond higher ups wanting to protect the face of a development team, it takes away the recognition of the numerous people that made a game what it is and applies it solely to one person. You see people constantly talk about how much of a genius Hideo Kojima or Hidetaka Miyazaki are, but never the people working directly on the smaller parts of the whole.
Since all the name recognition is associated with the game seller's Personality, it seems like in these cases the publisher were very reluctant to provide any valid\enough support to the team around the tyrant. When the publicity gets bad enough it's an easy choice to just eject the team members or shut down the project, the high profile staff member have the luxury of taking a few years to 'move to Adelaide to work themselves out', or just move on to a new project or role. It must be so awful to be in worker's situation, they get shafted no matter what and they are the only ones that would seem to take a job opportunity\industry credibility hit from it.
Really disappointed in Annapurna. It's one thing to not be able to interfere from their position as publisher, but it's another to literally say "okay get rid of all these people, keep the abuser, and hire people who won't complain". That's so fucked up.
@@nassiemartinez4399 yeah but their work isn't exactly journalism lol - it's more highly repetitive complaining made necessary by the awful abuses in the games industry. I love JSS but in this context the style of presentation alone shows what angle they're coming from and it's not a journalistic one lol Edit: Not saying there's anything wrong with opinionated angry TH-cam rants (like I said I actually quite like JSS) - just that it's not exactly journalism
Ya my ex-GF had this kind of person as a professor in art school studying graphic design. The professor was an icon doing editorial design but people left studio assemblies in tears and were thinking about quitting their studies (while doing MA course). She also was using personal information about people against them. The professor herself was also often in tears not understanding why everybody was against her. She could be really superficial (as art directors/graphic designers tend to be;o) ) and was judging me, the struggling underperforming illustration student she actually didn’t know well, on the hallway by my looks, saying I would be someone. Her judgement about me still sucks though.
Well this is quite a thing to see from this angle. I was one of those students in the class lectured by Robin Hunicke class of 2020. Some of the early tells were that she didn't show up to the first lecture (even tweeted about it while we were just kind of waiting), the other professor tried to rally the students to send a message to the uni higher ups that this was normal behavior for her and that we should expect professionalism, and their were clearly some scars from the previous year (but your gonna need somebody else for that story). It's ironic to hear that her devs though she was distracted by being a professor when we thought she probably spent no time on being a good professor because she was distracted with her company. The other professor was right as well, she did often miss lectures and when she did show, she really didn't have a lecture plan of any kind. Often going on about nonsense like 'empty boats' and making it sound like half the people in the indie scene are troublesome and immature. Eventually about 70% of the class stopped attending her lectures. I do wonder how it eventually played out with the other professor though. The last thing to mention is my project team's interaction with her. I basically never interacted with her personally, others will have to tell you about that but I heard it was bad. So every 2 weeks she would playtest our project and give feedback. We quickly learned that her feedback was useless. She was completely unable to grasp what our game wanted to be, and what it didn't want to be, giving the classic feedback of 'oh your game should be like that other game'. She also had a really hard time staying focused on what we were asking feedback for, often drifting toward systems and mechanics that were just unfinished. Some of our team would start to leave the room during those playtests cause it honestly just made them angry. Also I did hear some negative things from other teams and got the feeling the experience was mutual.
Being gaslit at work is fucking awful. I've been through it several times and sometimes it got to the point where I was fainting from the stress and anxiety
35:20 really resonated with me as someone who was in academia for a long time. I can only speak to the sciences but there are so many renowned and respected professors who are frankly abusive to their students and post docs. And even the “good ones” are often just “Not actively bad.” Unfortunately the traits that make you a brilliant scientist and a good researcher (and even if you’re a nice, well-meaning person) doesn’t mean you’re any good at being a manager, but the way the system works, if you’re the head of a lab, that’s what you have to be. And therefore this can make things really, really difficult for the people who work for you.
this really strikes a chord with me. I recently have gone through signficant emotional abuse at the hands of a friend. I want nothing more than to speak up. To scream about how horrible my life was because of this person. And I feel they are protected because of their position, I could risk my career by coming forward. I'm so hurt by what happened, and I don't know what to do. I'm scared. It's nice to hear the wide support for the victims here. It comforts me.
"I am going to start my own studio so I can fully realize my artistic vision without having to compromise to other people's ideas!" meets "I am going to work at a small studio, so I can have more input in the creative process and more personal contact with my colleagues"
Unionize your workplaces indie devs! Build worker co-ops if you can! These assholes can get away with their cruelties because they hold all the power via their ownership. If you all share the power, you all become responsible for each other.
Absolutely agree. Unions or coops are the only realistic way to redress the power imbalance that allows bosses to get away with shitty, toxic, abusive behaviour, not paying their workers enough, and more.
@@siddheshpillai3807 with the existence of video games, and especially indies, the industry will never die, any time one group falls apart, twelve more will be there to fill the space.
@@bugdracula1662 seriously I hate game industry their ethics are God awful their actions are more worse than bill Cosby and i wish this media dies forever sooner rather than later and this time no more third chance period
@@siddheshpillai3807 that's very broad, and while I agree that there are a lot of very shitty people and groups, this is not a problem exclusive to games, and not every game developer is bad.
Videos like this are the reason I'm proud to be a patron. The toxicity that can come from putting people on untouchable pedastals is a real problem in multiple industries, and it's something that definitely needs to be talked about. Also, as a dev myself it's just nice to hear someone acknowledge that a load of different people with a load of different skillsets put in huge amounts of work to make the stuff we love. The tendancy for the media to focus on the individual rather than the collective sometimes obscures that.
I work in animation and you hear similar stories about 'superstars' in animation. I was lucky in that I worked for several really great studios and never encountered one of these people till I was quite far along in my career and then worked with an Art Director who treated all the women on his team like dirt to the point one of them told me they were having panic attacks in the morning thinking about coming into work. This person made several comments to them about how they'd ruin their careers if they got out of line cus they were so well connected in the industry. They tired that on me but thankfully I've been around long enough and had such support at pervious studios that I knew my worth and stood up to them...they were very confused. Despite myself and several crew putting in complaints they weren't fired until after a screaming match with one of our clients on a video call that was very uncomfortable to sit through. What annoyed me though was the number of younger male crew who weren't aware of any of the issues, who are still connected with this person via social media and idolise them because of their resume. I contacted some people at one of the big studios he'd worked for and got feedback that he had similar issues there and was let go yet he's still able to get work based off having these big names on his resume
I recently walked away from a small startup only one month into the job after seeing some of the same red flags described in this video. Only advice I can offer to others is to trust your instinct because things will often go downhill once these abusive types see that you are willing to put up with their b.s
When you see games like celeste, hollow knight, cuphead, those aren't an author's game, we always have a team in mind when thinking about who made it. These games existing show that it's far from necessary to make great games. Not that it can't work with the right people, but that's like everything.
14:46 I never heard a more poignant and potent experience that indicates the vital necessity for unionization across the entire game industry. If true in any capacity, that moment shows a bigger problem within the industry that go beyond Kent or any individual toxic manager.
In my experience people that start their own studios tend to be particularly driven and rather bad with other people. And when they are successful, often their very worst tendencies get amplified. In addition to that, the smaller a studio is, the more potential for drama you have. I am certain there are exceptions to this, but basically if you have fewer people and they all have limited social skills (as most game-developers do) that creates increasing friction. The companies that handle this best are those that have grown enough, have a decent HR system and where the founder of the company has either stepped down/moved on, or pursued some niche role where they actually just deliver good work.
it is fascinating to me how much the experiences these folks had in this creative field parallel the experience i had working in a niche christian worship music organization. i am sad that there's a similar pain, but it's also an extraordinary comfort to know that people in another field going through something similar to what i experienced call it abuse, and intolerably so - even if there is sometimes no justice or the abusive leaders keep their position even after abuse is exposed. i'm sorry for every single one of you who know this pain, that you endured this abuse and gaslighting. but for whatever it's worth, you are not alone, and you've made me feel less alone. we're not alone. what we experienced was wrong, and looking around at these stories can make it hard to hope. i still deal with the fears of landing in another similar work environment, of finding somewhere safe and having leadership change and being subject to it again. that's real. and i share that in case anyone else is feeling it and feeling crazy over it. People Make Games, thank you for investigating this, for shining a light on it, for validating their stories and exposing the wrongdoing. thank you for helping keep that hope alive.
The story about Mountains made me jump back in time when I was in a band, rhythm guitarist but still a person and music/art passionate Same environment, the founder wasn't all that democratic, actually every idea we had wasn't discussed if HE didn't like it, only one idea was going to be real, one I suggested, but rather than "that's good" and improvements or development I've done over melody or stuff was received by him with "ok", nothing else. He even tried to betray us because the label was going to have a secret deal with him only, too bad everyone of us had access to the email inbox and we found out about that and bailed out
For those of you who want to get into the industry but are worried about the prevalence of abuse, I urge you to take a moment to think and realize that you are part of a new generation of devs who could make and be the change. Unions, co-ops, and other egalitarian structures of businesses exist out there that could help lessen the prevalence and impact of worker abuse in the industry. Don't be scared- stick together, stand for each other, and remember that there's strength in numbers and community.
I'm an organizational and interpersonal communication major at a large college. I'll be honest, anyone who ever finds themselves in a leadership position should take classes in it. I think a lot of people overlook communication and how you treat people as a leader, or even how you're treated as a follower, both positions that many people will find themselves in at some point or another. It's not seen as important when compared to the end goal. But wow, when you really start researching and understanding the different ways to communicate with people, it becomes very evident that these skills aren't bogus. They're essential. Everywhere.
I worked in such an environment in a small fashion brand in tokyo. It was living hell every day. I am glad to see those affected by this are trying to heal from their wounds and hope they will be better
As a queer person myself, one who even really connected with Gone Home, I never want employees to think that their well being is worth less than media representation. If anyone in a similar situation reads this, you personally matter. Don't let yourself be made into a martyr by someone who will get all the credit while you're thrown in the dustbin of history
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 she’s a lesbian. You not being able to understand one of the most common flags in the lgbt community really tells me about your knowledge. It’s like when a religious person criticises evolution but also obviously knows absolutely jack shit about it. She can be open about her sexuality if she wants. I’m part of the LGBT community and I’m sure as hell not going to be open about it because people like you exist.
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 thanks for being a sensitive little sunflower and getting super upset because someone is part of the lgbt community, and then feeling the need to publicly cry about it on an internet comment section. I don’t even know why I’m responding, people like you who start stuff like this over quite literally nothing are all trolls that are worth nobody’s time. All you want is that sweet kick of controversy.
I'm not too surprised, many people termed "creative/visionary" I've met in the past had horrible character flaws. Like being racist, mean, or absolutely terrible leaders. Couple that with our systemic bolstering of power structures and we get this sort of thing in every industry, especially media. There's obviously more coverage of media because of its reach, so we hear about this but the same thing in other work environments will never reach us.
This most be one of the best documentary channels on TH-cam, they do such good jobs helping you understand, and bringing up unusual but important topics! Love this channel!
Thank you for telling these stories. As an aspiring game developer, and as a fan of games, your work is really impactful, nuanced and important. Almost unique on this space, thank you!
Let me start with, this is not an excuse for Ken. But as someone who knows him and worked with him in a peer relationship, I think I understand how his behaviors came to be... Ken and I both had an abusive boss in the past. A narcissist who was elevated far beyond his knowledge that started to believe his own hype and who would constantly tear down others and butt heads with anyone who questioned him. It sounds like... sadly... Ken learned these behaviors and they're now reflected in how he believes you should manage a studio. The only way for him to fix this is probably years of therapy and unravelling these learned bad behaviors, plus management training. I hope he'll take the necessary steps to do so because there's a good artist with smart design sense in there... Just need to get rid of the toxic crap. :(
@@richardwilliams877 Generally speaking yeah, but Ken is more empathic than you might think. The question is if he can perceive where his faults lie. If I encounter him again I'll endeavor to have a talk with him.
I can sortha empathize with him. Changes are hard, some behavioral changes are even harder. I can see him as trying to be perfeccionist, taking things beyond the limit, making your best to go above your level. This is something from the industry that has been an issue for some time, I think that was Blizzard that made it mainstream. To makes things worse, Ken, it seems, has really bad communication skills. So it's a really bad mix-up of stuff.. I also dont believe that Annapurna gave him that advice of recreating the company, it could be a rumor that gained its trustness in this turmoil. But who knows. One thing he could do and I see as not being so difficult was stepping down when he had chance. He should've thrown his ego away and do something to show he is indeed trying. not the easiest thing, but compared to behavioral changes... yeah, not that hard. But yeah, he knows stuff, let's hope he improves so he can keep on going directing more amazing games!
nobody should empathize with this guy, what the fuck? he abuses people with no remorse. it doesnt matter if he "became" abusive, he is an abuser that traumatizes people to make himself feel good. yeah, he can change, but he probably wont. and doesn't deserve any empathy at all until the very very unlikely event he actually puts in extreme amounts of effort to change
Lmfao do you think a publisher should have that power over a developer that they can get people fired? It's the head's fault for not keeping checks and balances.
They don't have that power, true. They do have the power, however, to not be dismissive about it, something they don't see a problem in doing, apparently.
How do you propose, from both a legal and contractual standpoint, that publishers "not be dismissive" towards problems within development studios? I'd love for you to explain this as if you were in the publisher's shoes, complete with a list of the legal rights that you think you could rely on for your proposed actions.
@@mljh11 The condescending tone of your "how do you propose, from both a legal and contractual standpoint" and your "complete with a list of the legal rights that you think you could rely on for your proposed actions", as if i was a lawyer or Annapurna's legal team, is so, so predominant, that you just made crystal clear how much you, a person with a completely anonymous account, want to waste my time, patience and peace of mind. Not belittling the abuse suffered by a team of devs with lines such as 'without strong personalities games don't get made' is in the power of a publisher, no? not fostering and promoting an enviroment to toxic auteur culture? Those are simple ways to not be dismissive. Ways of not being complicit to an entire systematic issue. Of not secretely supporting their indie cash cows in abusing and sabotaging their workers. But you already knew that. So don't answer me again, please? You're exactly the kind of person i tend to block on social media.
Abusive bosses are totally shit. I, like tons of people, have been through it and my heart goes out to anyone who’s been fucked with or is getting fucked with in that games industry right now. No matter how bleak it’s made to seem by asshole bosses, there is always tons of other workers who are ready to lend and ear and provide support and accountability. Even if abusive rhetoric was true, and we all did unsatisfactory work, we still wouldn’t deserve to be made to feel anything but appreciated, respected, and supported in jobs. Solidarity forever people! I love you all
I guess Annapurna are significantly more attracted to certain kinds of developers than others. “No no we can’t support this developer, they don’t practice enough tyranny!” or “Ah, now this office? I can smell the fear in this office.”
Great video PMG, this was a tough watch. I've gotten so used to hearing these kinds of toxic practices from the AAA space that I didn't even fathom that it can happen to indie studios as well. It's even more jarring when the games made are heart felt and emotional experiences, while behind closed doors it was anything but for the employees. I hope those affected get the help and healing they need.
In these smaller studios the bosses allways pretend to be your buddies. They will do game nights or have a discord server n shit like that but in the end they decide if you can pay your rent. This highly discourages unionizing, often elading to people working more than they are payed for and having no private life cause your boss follows you on social media and knows what steam games you play. With these inclusive studios they know they got power cause they fucking know the person they hired has less options elsewere. Small buisnesses aren't more ethical than big ones, it's just that people dont talk about them. I worked in two small indie dev studios and both used mostly unpayed or underpayed labor of students and interns all with minimal experience in the buisness world and therefore easily exploitable. Your boss isn't your friend, at the end of the day they pay your wages and decide if you got food on the table. They also extort your surplus labor but that is another story.
Sad stories, these people deserve better. My takeaway from this video and countless other stories in the last few years is to never trust a company, specially those that pass themselves as "inclusive", because a lot of the time, they are just trying to hide their horrible practices behind a mask and making themselves look good so they can sell more of their products. Always be skeptic and make sure that they practice what they speak!
i'm so sad and frustrated for my friends in this industry. this terrible culture is not limited to the headlines but is rife in the majority of game companies i've worked for. i can assure you that most game industry workers have the same story. sending love and good wishes to everyone still trapped in a hateful studio trying to get through the week. there are better opportunities for you and you are worth it.
this channel is one of the most important forces in this industry and I deeply appreciate y'all's efforts to consciously mitigate against potential harm for people who come forward while ensuring that the issue is highlighted
interesting to compare the 'problems' all three of these creators seemed to face. - ken wong seemed aware of his social issues, and says he tried hard to change them, but then very diplomatically admits "these actions were not always enough": he had problems and couldn't fix them. he continued to cause other people pain, because what else was he to do? he gave up trying to force any change, and just stayed the same. - steve gaynor seems to have had an issue with the combination of social power and women, showing his ingrained biases and patronising people with his micromanagement. seems to be pretty standard, and it's no surprise that annapurna got rid of him only when he was jeopardising a game that seemed profitable. the issues seem more with annapurna's lack of real help - they got the project back on track, but they didn't try to fix the issues with steve, didn't ask employees what was going on and what people were feeling. a socially painful work environment is going to make shit art, or at least compromised art. - robin hunicke is a really interesting one. a public display of inclusivity gives her a high standard to live up to. i agree with a point made by one of the anonymous employees, that you are usually most aggressive to the others who reflect your own insecurities and personal issues. digging up dirt on coworkers, and strategically using that to keep the people around her looking 'less woke' than herself. these stories are similar in that there's one person, at the top of the company food chain, using their power in bad ways that bring out the bad sides of them. - wong seems to have communication and anger issues (but kept on because he was the 'important visionary') - gaynor seems to have general issues working with women (and was only booted when the negative press threatened to hurt sales and prestige of the studio) - hunicke seems to be so self-conscious of appearing inclusive and accepting that she was forced into performing a perfect image of diversity, which required some serious painting over her own ingrained biases, and involved just shitting on other people to remain on top. and it seems like this is still happening. i feel bad for everyone involved. i can understand the reasoning behind these guys' actions, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they hurt people. i don't know how to bridge that gap, but it's an explanation, not an excuse. this is all just my opinion, obvs. interested to read other people's responses to this investigation. thanks PMG, very well made vid.
I used to be friends with someone who acted exactly like Hunicke but without using personal info in public settings. She had this very quiet demeanor so you wouldn't necessarily expect this kind of behavior from her before you got to know her. She was super outspoken about social justice issues, but treated everyone around her like shit, and any time you called her on it or did something she didn't like, she would take you aside, usually while you were with other friends so there wasn't really any privacy, and berate you until you were in tears, telling you how your behavior was hurting her, just embarrass the shit out of you in front of other people. She also really liked to use how "woke" she was to belittle and condescend to the people around her, she'd spin stuff and make it seem like an innocuous joke you made was some massively racist thing and you were irredeemable because of it. (Also this is not me shitting on the concept of social justice, I am very left wing but I hate when people co-opt the language of these topics and movements and use the power that gives them to abuse other people, I think it contributes to a lot of the leftist infighting). It took this happening to me several times and talking to other friends outside of the friend group to realize I wasn't the problem, she was. I think she picked up on my own anxieties and self-esteem issues and thought that I'd just put up with it forever. The worst part is I'm pretty sure she plans to become a teacher, I feel bad for her future students. Edit: Ah almost forgot, she also used her relation to someone with a mental disability to deflect criticism of her behavior.
@@serenityinajar interesting story, i understand the vibe. i'm also heavy left leaning, but have complicated opinions on the way we're moving toward more diversity - due to exactly this kind of behaviour, from hunicke and the person you knew. while they may be good for diversity, they're still abusing people around them, just using a more acceptable means. minorities are simplified down to a tool to deflect criticism, but the abusive intent comes in shitting on the people around you to make yourself feel bigger. interesting connection between people viewing minorities as 'lesser', and the abusive act of punching down the people around you. like your personal power imbalance is mixed up with societal power imbalances. shitting on those who are already in the gutter, but wielding their minority status for your own gain. we have a long way to go as a species, but we seem to always be going somewhere. sorry you had to deal with that unpleasant person, but glad it seems to have worked out.
When I graduated from school, and was first looking for work in the games industry, I remember seeing that Funomena was hiring. I was a huge fan of Katamari and even met Keita once when he was giving a talk. I ended up not applying, but if I ever did get in, I cannot imagine having that be my first experience in games. I had no interest in working at a AAA studio, because I was scared of all the stories of abuse, racism and misogyny, but this was a good reminder that indies are at no less risk. For those looking to enter the industry, please do research and ASK QUESTIONS during the interview(s). Crunch, work-life balance, the people on staff, etc. Watch for red flags and trust your gut. Avoid being starstruck, because a bad studio will definitely use that against you.
It feels this is going to be the next hit to game development, especially with the reports coming out about Moon Studios. I'm glad people are finally speaking out and not just putting up with these working conditions, but it's sad of what I'm hearing about some of my favourite developers. Hopefully it means change is coming to all studios going forward.
Incredible work as always. Bringing to light the stories in the games industry that are typically dismissed. These are the people that make the games we love, and the only way to protect them and change this industry for the better, is to bring these matters into the spotlight. Thank you for all you do.
This is really f'ing depressing. I know, humans are complicated and everyone has moments where they just snap for a relatively small reason. I get that. But why can't so many devs working on games that SHOW THE VULNERABILITY OF HUMANITY just talk to people eye-to-eye? Thanks for the video, much appreciated! Cheers!
I just wanted to say, I really appreciate that you caption your videos! it's a big help for me and my processing issues and other people who have trouble hearing. keep up the great work!!
Every piece from this channel is so incredibly important, laying bare the complexities of game development that simply aren't usually covered, instead being buried under the discussions of auteurs and quality experiences that you so aptly point out. For someone interested in the industry, this was so enlightening to me and, if anything, videos like these will hopefully be bricks in the wall ensuring those setting up studios today will do better. 💪
Yo why doesnt TH-cam let me watch this video? I get a ''The following content may contain suicide or self-harm topics'' warning, I click ''I understand and wish to proceed'', and it still wont let me proceed. it just doesnt go away
I had no idea about Ken Wong & Mountains. I bought Florence because "oh this seems cool and fun" and it was and then I learn that there was a guy who monstered all the people who make it. Geeze! Can't trust anyone these days!
This video resonates with me. It disheartens me to a significant degree to hear others discuss how those who choose to behave poorly (to put it nicely) are rewarded, while those who are hurt are punished... to a degree that impacts them not only professionally, but personally - sometimes for life. This is trauma. Some of this activity is criminal. Definitely sickening. Unethical. Unhealthy. I've still not recovered from several experiences I've had. What do you do? I've seen livelihoods destroyed by corrupt entities - often led by a single individual who's supported by an entity profiting from them. It's just awful. I sincerely hope everyone sees the dishonesty going on by select parties here. It's soul crushing when you go to others for help - and are betrayed by those who should help. Often, ironically, hurting themselves in the process.
I've experienced this at two different companies. An individual at the top of the chain who calls random meetings, sets the target for a product, and then changes it after a few weeks, doesn't trust their staff and verbally abuses people in front of the team, even out of work at company socials. The result was always a massive turnover of staff and many failed and generally poor quality projects
Thank you for making this kinds of videos. Such a sad reality that, frankly, seems to extend through not only the video game industry, but other creative fields. Proud of the cahnnel for shining a light on these issues and of the people that spoke out about them. Sending you all a big hug
Fantastic important work - I'm honestly floored not even that this is happening, but that all these articles could have been written and this is still news to me; the industry isn't just dismissing these stories, but failing in some cases to highlight them when they come to light. Chris, please continue doing what you do - it is such fundamental work to making games into a better space for everyone, those playing and those making.
It's touched on with Robin, but can't help but notice how all these people presented themselves outwardly as well, reminds me of Jennifer Scheurle and the allegations there too. I worked extensively in advocacy for vulnerable groups (and am a minority myself) before getting into gamedev and there were similar people there. Frequently, those who had some charisma and said "the right things" or who could portray a certain image, became the leaders and figureheads for entire organizations; Even while being abusive or incompetent internally. The public and media frequently tend to take things at face value, the perception or image trusted over any red flags. Or the belief that broader political implications are more important than people being harmed - and I appreciate your channel and your work, but have seen you enable that in particular too. It can be very hard not to, it's effectively a developed skill to recognize when it's occurring and can conflict with important beliefs or the sense of belonging (it requires a lot of introspection, as one of the anonymous quotes indicates). It often means these types end up being able to abuse others, especially the most vulnerable, for extended periods of time - as is the case with these. And my experience is that the broader industry and most observers are just not equipped to handle it. My attempts to point out red flags or discuss these issues has been met with outright hostility and some pretty disgusting labelling. Glad that you tackle these things, but I've not got a lot of hope for meaningful change honestly.
I'm curious what you meant with broader political implications being more important than people being harmed and this channel enabling it. I think I have an idea of what you mean but I'm not 100% sure. I also strongly agree with the idea that people saying "the right things" or portraying a certain image makes all the difference to some people despite lack of actual qualities. I try to avoid this type of people, both the ones trying to fit it and those seeing it as the holy grail of capability
I'll reply to your both at once if that's alright, since there's overlap. Regarding broader implications, I'll give a (somewhat vague - due to privacy issues) example from my work that might help. In one case, a post-secondary educational institute started another in a line of outreach program that was intended to provide skills development to indigenous high school students for a position in the trades and to allow them to explore career options. Unfortunately, a number of staff had racial issues with that and the students were secretly made to do menial tasks like cleaning instead of being instructed in anything useful. The institute had developed a reputation for being welcoming to minorities in other fields and was worried spreading awareness of the incident would discourage those groups from attending and entering into the careers they offered (their diversity officer even agreed with the rationale). Which meant they wanted to silence (NDA) the victims in the case, and block my organization from further investigation and providing wider materials in general to prevent similar incidents - In other words, the optics and their potential effect were more important the people who had basically been used as slave labor or preventing a repeat. And for an example where I wasn't in an official position, something similar was happening during the sexual abuse allegations surrounding the head and vice-head of GaymerX con some time back. Where the allegations had been swirling for years but had been suppressed because of how it might affect perception of the broader community (their behavior did sadly play into some negative stereotypes) or diminish attendance for an important queer space. I'd actually approached some of the other staff with my concerns about the toxic behavior, but was told I was "the wrong kind of queer" and told I shouldn't ever attend. They were eventually removed, but only after there were so many victims it was impossible to ignore, and sadly many media outlets still refused to discuss it. So again, the optics mattered more than the victims or awareness. For one where I had no involvement, but appears to have been similar: The allegations against Scheurle I mentioned extended across multiple organizations, including abuse while mentoring minorities for the IDGA - which claims to do some similar advocacy to what I did. I've heard secondhand and so can't confirm, but been told that the main org and many branches have such issues are far more concerned about their public relations image over anything else, and that it's been the case for many, many years. At least in that case, it looks like BlackBird Interactive actually lived up to the standards they outwardly portray. This isn't uncommon and takes many forms in many fields, but it's not something that can be rationally defended. The harms of the past are only perpetuated by covering up the harms of the present, even if it might result in a "bad look".
The last message was so long, I'm breaking out suggestions on "red flags"/behavior avoidance into a separate comment. In this regard, "red flags" should be taken as potential indications - not certainties, and it usually requires multiple to be present to raise concern. They're not hard and fast rules and might be difficult to apply in various situations, which is why it's more of a learned/experience based skill and can be difficult to implement. Those caveats aside, I'd say the most important ones are... Assuming criticism comes (or doesn't come) from a specific source - In other words, don't assume someone criticizing an initiative, belief, game, another person, etc, is a certain demographic or not part of the group it relates to. I could be wrong, but I feel like this relates to one of the anonymous comments regarding Robin. Where a minority trying to speak up regarding their experience, especially with someone perceived to be a "diversity champion", is often dismissed out of hand. Or to say it another way, "You're a white cis het man pretending to be a..." as a form of deflection. Minorities are not a monolith, they are individuals and should be treated and accepted as such and not doing so is it's own form of racial stereotyping (This is one I've seen PMG do often enough that I had to unfollow/mute their twitter - though it often was supporting the narratives of others, instead of that they enaged in it directly, as a mitigating factor). It's of course possible for trolls to pretend what they're not, but it just shouldn't be the default assumption as it can silence voices and in general we shouldn't reduce people to their labels anyway - no matter what they happen to be (this is a core concept of intersectionality that often gets ignored or only applied in a very limited way, a lived experience can't be reduced to only a handful of factors, which in themselves are already only trend indicators). Related to this, is the assumption based on their own cultural centering - Basically assuming that everywhere experiences dynamics in the same way, or in the same proportion, etc, as they do. This often results in a lot of the same issues as traditional imperialism/colonialism, where voices from other nations may be forced to adopt the perspectives of a dominant nation, or remain silent because they may be attacked for not following a certain political line. It requires a good amount of empathy and introspection to break out of this. And further related to that, is the assumption that what works for one place or situation will work for another. What helps in the US for example, may not help in various nations in Africa. This single perspective approach often also ends up causing wider harm and can indicate an only surface level understanding of the issues - sometimes meaning they don't really care. Then there's also just evaluating how they treat others in general. Someone who is aggressive, dismissive or otherwise abusive to those who are not minorities, can easily be all those things to minorities behind closed doors (it indicates a personality trait, or behavior they find generally acceptable). Predators will often try and exploit championed issues to give that impeccable image outwardly, but often treat those who don't provide them something badly. Generally, real champions start from a place of respect, regardless of who they are dealing with (e.g. Mandela). People (and companies - see Activision Blizzard) may talk the talk, even give talks about a subject, but it's far more worthwhile to evaluate actual behavior, what someone does, like how they treat those they consider the least of their peers, than anything else. This is also where the concept of "virtue signaling" comes in, which can be misused as a label, but is also often too easily dismissed (performative activism is sometimes the more formal term, though I haven't seen a consensus on what to call it yet). Often when it's just a signal, rather than something meaningful, they will often try and center themselves in the conversation or otherwise highlight themselves or their accomplishments - usually the topic itself is more in the background or used as a podium for their promotion, rather than being the core of the message itself. Or in extreme cases, they may even request support for projects or "organizations" that primarily benefit themselves (it's why things like Charity Navigator and similar become important for evaluating whether funding actually has an effect). They also often pursue or try and encourage authoritarian solutions to goals, as this can provide them further control of the topic and narrative which also therefore allows them to extend their power or cover over any misdeeds. That also allows them to be exclusionary, especially of any who might be critical or take a closer look at what's occurring in or around the topic and organizations. That's something which a real advocate will usually welcome (though exceptions exist), as it allows them to further educate and draw in people to a cause from outside those who are already onboard - convincing skeptics is often a huge boost to progress or can mainstream the advocacy work. I think that covers all the major points and hope it's helpful (and not overwhelming). The very short version is that most dedicated advocates aren't selective in how they apply their principles or who they apply them to. Mutual respect as well as mutual accountability are core to how meaningful and lasting change is accomplished.
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“Graduates won’t expect this much” ah yes, code for “young people are much easier to manipulate and gaslight”
and they're new to the industry. At the very least they would believe they need the reference to be put on their CV for their future career.
Especially now a days. People see stuff on the internet and assume it has to be real usually with little critical thought behind it.
I met Ken Wong at a networking event at my university. Given how much I'd loved monument valley I was keen to talk to him, but in that brief conversation he mocked me and undermined my opinion. I had originally thought I'd done something to piss him off.
Kinda comforting to hear that it wasn't just me.
Oof
"Never meet your heroes" 😬 I hope we as a society will do something about this. Maybe a safe childhood would be The Thing... I have lived very close to these kinds of issues. Small companies 👎
I have met people like Ken Wong before. They are literally worthless as human flesh, to say the minimum.
it's so sad that just telling the truth about people in a work environment being awful can hurt your career.
It's human. It's a side effect of our group dynamic. The one telling on one from within his group, instead of solving it within the group, is seen as a destructive element. The action being morally right, or important for us in the fight against this type of behavior has unfortunately no influence on the emotional response. We dislike snitches, no matter how justified their action may have been. We already learn that at school. Don't tell the teacher about your bully! Solve it yourself! If you tell the teacher, it'll only get worse! The fact that teachers usually don't know how to react (because they lack the needed training) usually also makes it worse, conditioning us further... It's a structural issue really
The "speking up can hurt your career" part is one of the strongest tools abusive leadership have in order to silence criticism and keep employees scared.
It's almost never true though, at least not to the extent people make it out to be. The gaming industry is a global, multi billion dollar industry employing hundreds of thousands of people, that "everyone knows everyone" is a myth perpetuated by people who want it to seem like they have more power then they actually do.
Yes, speaking up can hurt your career in one company, perhaps, but no one individual has that kind of power in an industry of that size.
It’s insane that non compete clauses can exist too. You could be harassed to hell at a job and find another in the same industry that will treat you better. Whoops even if you’re fired you can’t go to that other job
@@Daftanemone very uncommon and not very easy to enforce except in some specific situations like when you sell a company.
@@Adrian_of_Arcane_Lore - I feel sad to respond only to say that... you're wrong. I've spent a portion of my professional life as a consultant and/or independent. As such, I've seen a lot, met a lot of people and had access to people that many haven't and seen the behavior of select people behind closed doors (of course, this isn't always bad - sometimes it's great, but that's not what we're talking about here).
I've seen this type of toxicity occur across industries so often I'm unable to count. It's absolutely true in the majority of cases. Moreso about bringing negative things up within an entity, but also about a single individual or small group of people wielding a disproportionate amount of power and/or influence.
This is all just my personal experience. That's a drop in a metaphorical bucket. Consider how much more is true. Why are you invalidating what others' say? How?
Look at the United States - or the world, for that matter. Consider the percentage of people who hold the most wealth, influence and power. Connect dots.
I didn't realise how messed up and abusive the situation was at a VFX studio I worked at was until the job I had afterward. The boss in that job said "good job" to me about something I had made and I nearly cried. I didn't realise that for almost 2 years I had just been ground down by an asshole that constantly ripped apart my efforts and made me feel worthless. It's taken me years to properly piece myself back together and feel proud of my work. Though I'm about to take the plunge again into the world of VFX in another country so we'll see how that goes.
Good luck! 🤞
Sometimes a small compliment is all you need to know that there's someone who appreciate what you've done and help you gain the confident you need to continue doing it.
When I got out of a major 3rd party games QA house after many years, I came to this same realization. The whole industry is stuffed with cancerous people, and corporations who will go out of their way to defend the status-quo instead of actually making things better. So happy I'm with a team that actually cares about each other and values each other's work now.
My brother rather pointedly mentioned that the shift from practical effects to VFX is always painted as "well CGI is just cheaper!" And that's true! But part of the reason that it *is* cheaper is because the practical effects people are part of a union. VFX is not. So the abusive practices that are rife in the entertainment industry AND the tech industries are cranked up to 11 with zero protections for the people who do the work.
Good Luck, Take care of yourself ✨
This isn't really an "indie games" problem, it's a "small organizations" problem. It can happen anywhere there's limited visibility, lack of countermeasures, and power asymmetry. It's easier to end up there as small organizations scale up, and games are a very hit-oriented industry. So we see a lot of people/companies leap out of obscurity to renown and acclaim.
This. Another problem is the capitalistic pressures put on the studios. Small indie teams tend towards shorter development times and crunch times, which contributes to the interpersonal conflict we see. It also puts alot of pressure on devs and designers to stay with a project despite the presence of a abusive or disruptive personality at a lead position.
I think it’s a problem across the world not just for corporations large and small
This is not what it is being made out to be. This is simply a case of an abuser at work. A psychiatrist could explain what is at play here. I have a child with Down Syndrome, he was being driven to school on a small schoolbus, and all was fine until an elderly couple took over that run. Then I noticed a change in behaviour, he was showing signs of OCD. In a child this is more often than not a sign of some form of abuse. So I watched the couple when my son was brought home and surely enough they were abusing him. It follows a specific pattern. The abuser tends to complain about something the person being abused cannot possibly change but wants to. These examples sound like this is how Ken Wong abuses people. However, one needs to be familiar with a lot of forms of abuse to recognise them, as I have Tourettes and pure O OCD I have that familiarity and know what I am seeing when I see it, most people would not, hence they all tried to be reasonable with him, what one has to understand that to someone like Ken Wong abusing people is not a bug it is a feature.
Size really doesn't matter, but I get what you're trying to get at.
"Big" companies like Activision, Blizzard, etc, can get away with countless abuse allegations and go on with what they were doing no problem.
It's a "big organizations" problem too. The problem takes a different form according to company history but it most certainly spawns for the same reasons.
As a former UCSC student, I remember Robin would always take any chance to make a lecture about her own games, or personal story. Kind of felt like we touched on her work at least once in every prerequisite game design class. When I became a senior, she was absent on our first day of our capstone class and it sounded like it wasn't even communicated to the rest of the senior staff. I remember the genuine disappointment our other leading professor (Professor Altice) had as he stood alone in front of the class, apologizing to us and reassuring us he would do everything in his power to help guide us in our final year. Robin later made an announcement to the class, basically saying "Whoops!" and that all of us should take it as a learning experience, not just her. And then well... she'd go on to skip multiple lectures in the future for her own work anyways.
Holy shit that's a big yikes.
As one of Robin's students, I am not terribly surprised. Thank you for making this video!
Can also verify as she was a faculty in my capstone. Told us we didn't deserve to be game devs because we didn't want to add a feature that she wanted in our capstone game. Then proceeded to sob and attempt to manipulate other faculty members that we deserved to fail.
Have some other situations that involved people losing internships because she felt like they weren't good enough, but overall it feels weird to see a video making a topic about it for sure.
It’s funny because she is often a fill-in for Ted Price (who seems to actually be nice) on the Gamemaker’s Notebook. Her cheerful persona seems to be able to put up a facade for those who don’t have to interact with her extensively. It’s depressing to see how much a nice outward appearance can do.
@@kaikaikai6959 that is my impression. People who worked with her for a day loved her. People who worked with her for 6 months realized it was just about self-promotion, emotional manipulation, the facade of creativity and inclusion without genuine results. Can't imagine working with her for years at funomena, I would have built the wall of chairs too.
People using crocodile tears to shame people into not fighting them is pretty gross.
@@KyokujiFGC For sure, I think that has why the term crybully has become a more widely adopted term. It seems to be a common tactic.
I feel like the fact that these studios are small indie studios, especially ones that make such heartfelt games like florence, makes it feel that much more upsetting and surprising when you see these stories of emotional abuse. Ir really is as if, in the game industry, i've come to view studios like these as "the good guys".
I work in a small studio as well - let me tell you, these people aren't necessarily leaders, there's a lot of them in every kind of industry, not only in the games one. It just happen that sometimes, these sociopaths get the right opportunity and rise to the level of leader and do this, but most studios are still fine!
Reminds me of how it's pretty common for mom and pop stores to abuse their employees like hell. Small businesses have comparatively much more to lose than big ones and are pretty much always treading on razor thin profit margins.
Do not expect much from studios, no matter the size.
Florence was nice But when i Saw a Pictures of the Developers im Not surprised
Makes you raise eyebrows to the fact that the gaming industry was "at risk" when Grand theft Auto vice City came out because of the violence, but you see people actually are getting affected by the creation of the video games and along with corporate decisions to take advantage of the consumer.
It is sad. I love video games and I also love rap music as well and to see both industries. Take advantage of the people who make the industries money in the first place is so sad so fucking sad
As a newbie dev, I was emotionally abused by another dev that I really looked up to. It's been years since then, I have no evidence that he did this to anyone else, and it's not like his work got much more than a cult following anyway, so I've always felt like there's just no real point in, like, coming out about it. And yet, to this day, just accidentally seeing his work being mentioned out there is enough to make me feel miserable all over again.
This stuff really is, uh... yeah, it's so, so rough. My heart goes out to every other dev, big or small, who has gone through something like this and has been unable to speak out about it.
come out when youre comfortable
Just passing by to wish you all the best and that may you heal from whatever happened back then.
Thanks for sharing this 🙏🏽
I hope things get better, thanks for sharing.
What he do
"... I know she's a net-positive good in the industry..."
Holy shit, *_NO._*
If you ever catch yourself using THAT argument to justify someone's actions, speak out with a megaphone.
That is the single worst possible and most manipulative justification you can come up with.
I cannot press enough just how rotten and insidious that line of thinking can be.
That line of thinking can lead people down a well they can't escape from.
'They did nothing wrong, i just have to endure for the betterment of others.'
When i heard that quote, i immediately stopped what i was doing (i multitask youtube).
That's as red as a flag can get.
Exactly, it’s what you do behind closed doors that counts. Someone who does no advocacy but treats people really well is far better than someone who puts on a great public facing persona and abusing employees.
I don't know if the comparison is appropriate, but I got "I need to stay with him because of the kids, even if he hits me" vibes.
It's very clear that her 'advocacy' is mostly superficial and performative to make her look like the hero, even if she does not realize and genuinely thinks she's an ally. What matters is that she hires people of color and makes a public fuzz about it but women and people of color working for her do not feel well represented and it matters that she ignored advice and criticism from the same people about trying to make the work environment more inclusive because she just has to be the good one, there's nothing to improve because she thinks she's the perfect progressive.
That's how I felt when I left my situation. "Everyone else seems to like her, it must be my problem". A lot of coworkers later told me thier real opinion, which mirrored mine.
YEP
Awful people will use the fact that they're inclusive and speak up against injustice as a way to shield themselves from the things they've done, to batter the people they've hurt into silence. It's understandable someone would say that, believe that, because that's part of the reason these people are so vocal about how "good" they are; so you don't think as hard about the harm they do. But good actions taken onstage do not outweigh face to face awfulness, especially when you're going against all the things you say you support
Ever since the wider atrocies of the triple AAA video game industry started coming out, it's so easy to look at indie studios and think of them as "the good guys", and this video shows why we can't just assume that an indie studio is automatically "better" in terms of behavior. Very few indie studios are seriously examined in the same way triple AAA studios are, and I'm glad this channel and these videos exist to do that.
I guess flithy frank quote everyone should be treated as shit is true on this case
I can't stand the sentiment that "it takes tough people to make games." As someone who has been making games for most of their life, I used to take the "tough on myself" approach to getting through a project. It certainly didn't really help me get any games finished, but it did lead to multiple panic attacks, a general feeling of worthlessness, and a seething hatred of myself and everything I'd ever made. If I'm honest with myself, that mentality severely stalled my progress and prevented me from actually being able to finish any of my games. You just kind of burn out and lose the ability to work on anything after enough of that kind of treatment. Because creativity is not a paste you can squeeze out of a tube with enough force. It has to be cultivated and encouraged. In my case, giving myself a break and not forcing myself to work when I don't have any energy left has actually been incredible for my progress. I've purposefully taken that approach for my current game, and it is further along than any other project I've ever made of this scale.
Be kind and considerate to the people who make your games. Without them, you wouldn't have them.
It does take tough people to make games. Except screaming and throwing temper tantrums isn't being tough. That's being a child. Being tough means that you are kind to your coworkers even when you don't feel like being kind. These kinds of projects are a marathon, not a sprint. So, it takes tough people to adhere to realistic and forgiving deadlines and not to push yourself and your team to burnout. It's easy to go through cycles of overworking and burnout. It takes a tough person to say no to that and follow a healthier work life balance.
Lastly, the kinds of people that are normally at the heads of companies are not there because they are empathetic. Our society doesn't promote empathy as a skill required for leaders. So, we end up with sadists that love to torture their staff.
Excellent comment! I hope your current project comes out well.
You are based
“Because creativity is not a paste you can squeeze out of a tube with enough force.” I’m going to be thinking about that for months, in the best way. That’s exactly what I needed to hear right now. Thank you
this comment made me rethink my habits from the past couple years of my life. Some of the most fun I've had when making things was made when I wasn't trying to force myself to keep going, when I wasn't constantly tearing into myself, beating myself into the ground until I didn't even wanna keep going. Some projects of mine I feel pain looking back on because I know how miserable I was making them, even if I do objectively like what the project itself is and it's not really that bad. Like looking at the thing itself reminds me of the pain I went through to create it. These past couple years haven't been too kind to me, maybe I should at least be kind to myself.
I don't know how your current game is going, but I hope it's going well or went well.
This just makes me so uncomfortable and feeling sick watching this. I've worked in the film industry, where these things happen a lot too, and I've been hoping for a while to transfer my skillset into the video game industry as a sound designer. But the more I hear about said industry, the less confident I feel. These stories of workplace abuse are so common, it feels more surprising to hear when things work well at a studio. Amazing job as always to the two of you
It is important to note though that there are still those studios in which these kinds of things don't happen. While there is certainly a overarching problem in the space, that doesn't mean that there is no place that is more free from those issues. I'm in the games industry and I'm also queer minority and while I've certainly had some negative experiences I've had just as many positive ones, and the studio that I'm currently at has repeatedly shown a great commitment to inclusivity and care for employees.
Just as in every industry, there are good places, and bad places. If you're passionate about the work, there will be a space for you. And the world is changing, progress is being made
❤
Tech industry in general is suffering from these types of issues, but you shouldn't let this stop you from pursuing your dreams. Not all - and I'd even argue that most don't - companies or teams will have these issues. :)
I think part of the reason why it's surprising to hear when things work well is due in some part to that, if things are working well in a studio it's not actually newsworthy or reported on. So it makes sense that we mainly hear about the stories of abusive studios instead of stories where things are better, since we don't have to make noise in the latter.
As someone who has tried to get into game audio. Perhaps it's easier now, but audio is not highly valued in the game industry and is often hard to get into. Many companies use a small number of third party audio focused companies rather then having an internal audio team. Even when they do, they are mainly looking for people who can do implementation over design or recording. Many rely on third party sound effect libraries (sometimes exclusively) rather than design their own sounds. When audio positions do open they are often short contracts (around 6 months) that offer no benefits.
Now it's not all gloom and doom, but come to it with tempered expectations. You're experience may be different than mine as I was mainly looking 10 years ago. I do hope you are able to find something and have an incredible time! Making games is fun and working on the audio for them is a unique experience.
I've yet to find an industry that isn't like this, or worse.
This only scratches the surface of the awful behavior of heads of indie studios. This video didn't get into Chucklefish, Team17, Campo Santo, or god-damned fucking Focus Home Interactive.
Always remember folks: it's not just the "AAA" industry that fosters toxicity... it's absolutely anywhere and everywhere.
Team17 has toxicity issues?
Chucklefish?!?
@@Dolamieu they are accused of using unpaid labour in several projects
It’s so often that we hear these stories of abuse of power in large AAA companies that it’s easy to forget that smaller companies can have the same issues. Just because it’s at a different scale, the power dynamics and the problems with them are still the same and can be just as damaging to those under the thumb.
That why I hate both triple a and indie game industry they all suck 👎
@@siddheshpillai3807 they are all run by demonic schmucks like Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Jonathan Blow Ffish
@@siddheshpillai3807 that's capitalism for you, no respect or dignity for the common workers
It's much worse at smaller companies. There's no HR to complain and given that the reputation of the company is non-existent you can't go public like this.
The stuff with Ken is very similar to my experiences, but I don't have any recourse. I can either quit and lose everything I worked for over the years or deal with it.
I talking with Ken at a networking event. Florence was life changing for me and got me through the toughest time I have ever had. I stated to him that I'm good at and enjoy programing, not much for the art end of things but I'm not above developing a new skill. "If we ever need stick figures drawn I'll let you know." I laughed it off and tried sparking a convo about coding languages. "We have enough coders. Bye." The guy with him at the booth mouthed to me what I think was "Run". After that interaction I changed my major from game dev to network admin.
I appreciate you guys doing the journalism on the industry that it seems hard to find folks willing to do. At least as far as video journalism goes on video games, you guys are the only ones I'm aware of willing to tackle these subjects and go to the lengths you do and it's awesome.
Jason Schreier and PMG are the only actual investigative journalists in the industry.
I enjoy a lot of writing from other people, but they're not actual journalists. They're largely an extension of publisher's marketing arms.
I disagree. I think every major site I read regularly (Bloomberg, Ars Technica, Polygon, Kotaku, The Verge) has broken at least one major story like this over the last few years. Obviously Schrier/Bloomberg is most famous for this, but he was doing that at Kotaku for years beforehand.
I agree that many other sites are basically out there doing press releases and numbered reviews, but that's true for a lot of enthusiast entertainment websites, covering everything from comics to books to movies. Investigative journalism is so much harder and riskier than just fan content.
I think it's actually more rare to see TH-camrs doing this work, which makes PMG a really cool and vital step forward for gaming TH-cam as a whole, I hope!
I think the reason this type of reporting is so under represented is because video game media producers think games journalism is reporting on the games themselves and not what’s actually important: Reporting on the people and systems behind the creation of these games.
George Weidman (Super Bunny Hop) has done this sort of work on and off, though he's mostly just been reviewing games recently after dealing with allot of stress and misery after breaking a rather massive story about Konami.
It’s not that people are unwilling to report on stories like this, but more that the industry protects abusers and makes it exceptionally difficult to get any information out. I’ve written for both Destructoid and TheGamer and despite those sites being known, I rarely would get comments from publishers about anything. At times, you have to go with vague info just to prod a publisher response, which sucks.
Couple that with how most websites have no HR or legal departments to protect them and it’s a recipe for disaster. You have an entire profession that wants to tell stories behind the things it loves, but can’t because the people creating those things are often silenced.
We're absolutely gutted to report that Funomena is set to be closed by the end of this month, with all contractors already having been laid off as of last Wednesday.
This is an extremely sad end to the studio's story and I hope everyone affected is able to land on their feet.
This announcement has caught many employees by surprise, who now find themselves looking for other work, with their last paycheck coming this Friday.
If you're in a position to hire, there are plenty of people who could use your help right now.
Official statement from Funomena: twitter.com/funomena/status/1508938342888615943
Damn, a product of this video blowing up? Disgusting ...
Its a real shame but is really an insight into the effects of well done investigative journalism - sometimes they are good like with Roblox and sometimes it can unintentionally destroy a reputation of a studio causing it to sadly close, really shows how important journalism can be
Good intentions can be ultimately warped into becoming overbearing and toxic to those who admire them. It's a shame, really.
Btw, the comment got unpinned since you edited it! Just letting you know.
I think this is a good thing. This is good for the future of work in the industry. Thank you for making this.
I can speak from the perspective of someone who works outside the game industry: these stories are hugely common in every type of small business I’ve been around over 20 years of professional life. In the end it comes down to weak labor protections for things like this, with employees often having no recourse but to leave and hope they can find a better job elsewhere. Tiny tyrants love to start businesses, it gives them control over other people, and lets them take credit for the efforts of others.
The one testimonial took the words out of my mouth "why does a studio need a safe word?"
If the last lady is telling other people the details of her employee's personal lives, I bet she is doing the same in regards to her students. It's another position of power, one where she could ask for personal details and most likely get them.
Also, excellent work, and I hope you and your loved ones have a safe, happy, and healthy 2022.
If video games never existed, these abusive people in power would still be abusive people in power except in a different field. Robin Hunicke could work at a bakery and then routinely dox the other bakers.
💯 percent this. Honestly, the story about her resonates so deeply with messed up shit I've witnessed in academia. I had the exact same thought about how she probably treats her students. Working in this sector, you notice a very identifiable pattern of people building their careers (even achieving quasi- or outright-celebrity status in some cases) conducting politically progressive research while treating everyone junior to them like garbage.
Nothing is quite like the experience of watching someone badger a junior colleague or student to the point of tears...then opening up a newspaper or magazine the next week to read a fawning media profile about how they're supposedly making the world a kinder/better/safer place with their work.
I've concluded that bullies and the power-hungry will latch onto any vocabulary that allows them to position themselves as heroes...the content doesn't really matter. The special perversity of shaming other people for "not being as supportive of women as me!" (or whatever) is totally lost on them...
i am an alumni of the program she "teaches" at. i can confirm that she is abusive to students and the other professors of the program. unfortunately, we were all too scared to fight back since she had the power to end our careers before we even got started. on paper she was the one in charge of our capstone projects but she often skipped her own lectures and left work to our other teachers. she was not a positive influence on any of us and anyone who tried to do anything about it (even just saying something) was bullied. she and i had issues from the get go but i was able to keep my distance. her victims didnt have the luxury. i just hope she gets what she earned and that her victims can heal.
It's just like that scene in Whiplash where JK Simmons asks about Andrew's life and then uses that info to abuse him
@@slugzilla_9875 I'm glad you were able to protect yourself to an extent, though it sucks that the work of getting your degree included having to navigate around an abuser.
Looking up Annapurna brings up articles about how Annapurna Mountain is one of the deadliest mountains to climb. There's a metaphor in there somewhere, but I'm too lazy to figure it out.
"Along with K2 and Nanga Parbat, Annapurna I has consistently ranked as one of the most dangerous of the principal eight-thousander summits." - wiki
So there's abuse at indie game studios, there's abuse at gigantic AAA studios, there's abuse in Hollywood... It's almost like abusive people getting into positions of power is a widespread problem and that we shouldn't assume a place is immune to it just because of the work they produce. Looking at you, fuckin' Joss Whedon.
And execs at Annapurna, know what's TONS worse than people finding out that the leaders of the studios you were working with had to leave for being manipulative and abusive?
People finding out that you did everything possible to ignore it and sweep it under the rug instead.
It's a widespread issue because of the way hierarchy power structures are instated in the capitalist workplace.
But nobody is ready to talk about that yet I guess.
@@mihailoveselinovic7151 there it is, the anti-capitalism comment. How predictive.
@@mihailoveselinovic7151 I don't think historical dictators, leaders, and royals that cause these same problems here are apart of capitalism. this issue just derives from greedy, uncaring people of power.
@@JustinKoenigSilica It's anti power structure workplace comment as one part of the current itteration of capitalism we have. Do you really think criticizing bad aspects of capitalism suddenly makes me anti-capitalist?
@@mihailoveselinovic7151 Hierarchy and the systems of abuse it creates have existed long before capitalism, my guy.
As an Australian, it is disappointing but understandable to see abuse embedded within studios in this country once again see coverage.
Our games industry is littered with dead, broken and offshored studios. Despite a talented body of people, job security has been even more of a looming problem than in other developed countries. The reasons are generally beyond control; a lack of investment, inability to compete with overseas subsidy programs, volatility in costs (especially currency fluctuation and infrastructure). Those that stuck around regularly undergo massive layoffs at the slightest excuse. At one point a single studio (Firemonkeys) laid off 1 in 20 of all people working in the industry in A Single Month. As a result, power is highly concentrated in the individuals with financial control over each company.
Indie studios are the only ones left after every larger budget studio either folded (Krome, et al.) or was closed by overseas owners (THQ Australia, Blue Tongue, Irrational Games / 2K Australia). While this does open the way for creative small games, it is a lot harder to escape the gravity field of a powerful abuser or fraudster (eg; Julian White at Red Ant) in a small pond. The biggest example of what this leads to is the infamous (and well-covered) saga of Team Bondi.
More people need to see this. Our industry in Australia is really now more or less indie driven. Would love to see studios that do the right thing get more of a spotlight and those that have toxic cultures be made to change, unfortunately it's a common thing here in many industries that the least deserving people end up at the top. We need that culture to really change.
@@meikahidenori Unfortunately my experience with the game's industry in Australia is that a lot of it is extremely toxic. I really came to notice this at the different GCAPs (Game Connect Asia Pacific). As somebody who flew from the West for these events and PAX I ended up attributing a lot of this to Melbourne in general. The general people seemed to be unhinged in all honesty. There were people complaining that Team Cherry wouldn't come to Melbourne to collect their award for the Game Awards. Designing really disgusting monotisation systems, I dead set remember eating burgers with some of the devs where they were discussing how they could really get as much money as possible out of loot boxes and how to basically make the system as dodgy as possible. Ken himself was somebody I avoided on meeting once as I was talking with another about the Arcade when he walked over and effectively negged everyone and then said how inclusive an environment it was "even you'd be welcome" was something that stuck with me, like the fuck he mean by that. I'm glad I never met Robin but met plenty of devs like that. I came to learn very quickly that a lot of these "advocate" types were the worst.
For me the moment that I started to really take notice was actually the year Innes McKendrick from Hello Games was doing talks. This was directly after the debacle that was the release of the No Man's Sky release and no public apology etc... It was in one of their key speeches they said "As game designers I feel we have a right to make mistakes". Me and my business partner were gobsmacked at this as what she was effictively saying is it should be okay as game devs to falsely advertise your product. What had as more shocked was they fact the crowd stood up and cheered. We were told by representatives of GCAP that game developers needed to have twitter for communication and on that afternoon we saw plenty of tweets about how "anybody who didn't stand up at their speech was a bigot". This was the moment I stopped defending Hello Games and why no matter how much work they put into No Man's Sky I will never play it as several of Innes' talks were about how all the abuse they got was because she was transgender, never anything to do about the product they released after promising elements that to this day still do not exist.
After this moment I started noticing a lot more in the industry I came to find sickening. There is a post GCAP drinks. At first it was just oh yeah fun networking experience but over the years I started to learn what some of the people were actually like. Here I thought we could just share the games we were working on but I got a lot of push back from "oh I don't think that will do well" "as an indie dev you need to make something more unique and different to stand out". "You really need to think about how to keep monotising it after release" etc.. There was a degree of pretentiousness I have never experienced before. I still remember one studio that had been successful saying the same things about creatively different games who's one game that was a success was a platformer and the rest of their out there wacky idea games that indie devs should be working on, were beyond low selling with a very small niche market at best.
@@Ultimaodin Why are you misgendering Innes tho?
@@YukiDelValle Ah yes that's the take away from my post, I used they twice and accidentally typed she twice. Let's not discuss the fucked up pretentious shit they preached to thousands because I used the word she in a long comment. Again you are confirming exactly what I said, everything is about them being trans and nothing about the actions taken or said, as if by me using the word she it dismisses all legitimacy to my argument. Good job proving my point. The same as the person that said they couldn't speak out because "I know she's a net-positive good in the industry". This is why this industry is such a toxic cesspool, we allow people to get away with shit actions due to advocacy and their identity.
@@Ultimaodin You can say he's a shit person as much as you want, there's no reason to be transphobic.
Another incredible video from PMG - all these indie "superstars" were people I looked up to and revered as I studied game development at a public university. When I got the chance to go to GDC I hoped so badly to meet some of them, but flipped out even when I was just in the same room. That same GDC was when Game Workers Unite made a big splash, and what they revealed about working in the industry made me decide to never go into it at all. But I continued to think indie games were some kind of exception. It's important to learn the truth behind that narrative, and I really appreciate learning it, even if it hurts.
I think that if you love making video games then you should pursue what you studied. Just know that bad behavior from colleagues and bosses are everywhere and unavoidable.
Stuff like this makes me happy I did so poorly in my high-school computer science classes that I decided to scrap going into undergrad as a comp-sci major with the intention of going into the video game industry. I'm still making tiny games for my own amusement with tools like Twine, RPG Maker, Game Maker Studio, and Unity and I still keep up with the industry, but I'm happy I didn't end up in it full time.
There's always the option of going the solo dev passion project route. It might not pan out, it's not gonna make you rich or famous, but you get to be your own manager and set your own schedule and expectations.
@@digzgwentplayer4159 Yep. Anywhere you go you'll always stumble on a toxic workplace at least once in your life, it seems. It may be hard and close you some doors but learning to say "no" and stand your ground really helps in the long run, opening other doors.
@@Biouke I remember that after I was done with my first job I was thinking that "may be the next one would have zero toxicity?", but no, I was just lucky enough that the harassment wasn't directed at me this time around.
This is fucked up but I think also speaks to some of the reasons unionization efforts are needed. I hear people here referencing wanting an HR person to handle this with, but that ignores how HR is here 1st & foremost to protect the company, and if your studio is owned by its founder, that often means protecting them rather than the team. This is something we have seen time and time again in the bigger companies, and it's highly likely to be repeated here at the indy scale because it is what they know and these managers have seen it protect them.
If developers want protection, they need to organize that protection from their side and project their power outward, rather than hoping that the very management that does this abuse will hire someone who will somehow reign them in. That's not how abuse works.
It sucks to have to do & it's scary, but if your country lets unions happen, organize & get one. It's the only protection that the workers have any real control over & the only one that will ever really protect them.
Yeah it's unreasonable to expect a solution to come from within the company. It's the whole "they asked the problem if there was a problem" thing all over again.
Can entirely confirm, was part of the writing team at an indy studio, when we unionised, penned an open letter about weird changes to the company values and tried to talk to HR about the COO's conduct, mysteriously all of the signatories were laid off
You hit the nail on the head. You can only expect change by having solidarity on the side of the workers and pushing *back* against the power of the corporation. Anything less allows a monopoly of power. Large power imbalances invite abuse making it inevitable.
Organize organize organize. And then seize the means.
Unions, especially at studios, don’t really work. The leads and bad actors just leave and form another company. Then you have a studio with a union and no head that fails and folds. Seen it a million times.
This really hit close to home for me. My first job in the industry involved a level of harrassment from the CEO that still gives me panic attacks today. This is the first time I've actually written about it without deleting what I wrote because I feel so much anxiety talking about it in a public space.
You're not alone. Thanks for voicing your experience, if no one talks nothing changes. Wish you the best and to recover from this crap.
@@Biouke Thank you, it really means a lot and I appreciate the kind words. I'm in a much better place now as I work remotely and my new job is very good to me. I don't think I'll ever truly get over how my co-workers and I were treated, but it's nice to not be threatened with redundancy on the regular.
@@thebestnameeva That's good to hear. It might leave scars but at least now you can detect and avoid those traps and look at the bright horizon going forwards :)
I want to second what @Biouke was saying. I admire your courage and strength in sharing your experience.
This whole video is why I hate work. As soon as a place says “we’re a family,” I’m out. No, work is not a friend or family hangout, it’s work; I have friends & family, what I don’t have is money, and that’s the only reason I’m working.
As soon as a work-place thinks they have a right to know anything about my personal life, beyond legalities, you know it’s going to be toxic, and you should run.
Yeah there are certainly times where that is true, but in highly collaborative efforts like games development it is often highly productive if you have a friendly environment to work in, where your co-workers are friends who you might hang out with even outside of work. I frequently enjoy playing games with friends from work, and it makes collaboration at work a lot easier as everyone is very supportive and people aren't afraid to discuss issues they might be having. However it requires a genuine desire from everyone to have that kind of environment, as well as an understanding that personal information is just that and if anyone doesn't want to share it then that is completely fine for it to work, but if anyone is digging too deep or is willing to exploit personal information for professional gains then it can fall apart VERY quickly and turn into a nightmare so I definitely understand where you are coming from. Just know that sometimes it can work, I've been very fortunate that it does at the studio I work at, but it is probably a good idea to still keep your scepticism when a workplace says that.
If work is family, I'm running away cuz Dad is never home
@@AusSkiller I believe what you’re talking about is born out of shared work ethic. Even if I owned such a business, I wouldn’t tell potential hires that “we’re a family,” just a simple “get the work done.” Once you do that, yeah, the whole family thing might happen, but that’s not something I would strive for in a work environment. Nice when it happens, but never the goal.
The only place I've ever embraced that sentiment with was being a summer camp counselor. Unless you're living together 23/6, it's such a joke.
@@AusSkiller Yes but there's a surprising difference between
Colleague I get along well with
and
Colleague who is also my friend
If you work with someone and they're also your friend and you see them all the time, the two dynamics *can* blur very easily depending on the people involved. Operative word being *can* because some people can remove the two and separate unreasonable hard feelings.
I mean ffs strangers can get personally offended over borrowed stationery, adding a friendly out-of-work relationship to that can make everything 1000x worse or make it not a problem at all on any level and if you say that can be predicted you will find yourself guilty of hubris later down the road.
I don't want to say too much, but I did work with Robin at Maxis, nothing about this video comes as a surprise whatsoever. I left the project that I worked with her on, and would never want to be involved in anything she's working on again
I've seen this exact behavior in other parts of the art world and beyond, where abuse masquerades as valid criticism, and people in positions of authority use it as a license to be assholes, while pretending that it's just honesty, or part of the privilege of being an 'auteur'. And when people are financially dependent on their bosses, it's just going to keep happening.
Excellent piece. I’m a data scientist in banking and the impression I have is that Annapurna are taking massive financial risks in order to enable these toxic workplaces. I’ll likely contact them directly to make that point but also see if I can see if I can identify their commercial bankers to make that point as well. The kind of behavior described here is sickening.
Thank you so much for producing this content. You are doing a derive by bringing these practices to light.
A lot of this is why I'm increasingly curious about different organisational structures. Not that it's impossible for something like a co-op to go wrong, but there are too many instances of some abusive studio head who is seen as being impossible to fire, or who is allowed to continue being abusive because they are percieved as some kind of creative "genuis" - despite the fact that all those games are made by *teams* of people.
Once someone is elevated to that kind of mythical auteur status, they are handed a cultural and structural importance that seems to disconnect them from a basic level of accountability. It's like building up individuals to the point where there are no longer sufficient checks for their worser impulses, and then being surprised when those worser impulses are exercised to denigrate or abuse others. Clearly things need to change in the industry, and I think a lot of that is cultural. We need to start putting more value into the "soft" skills that support the creative work of *teams* of people, rather than locating all creativity within specific individuals and then placing them on pedestals. But also it's long past time there were different structures being looked at: unions, co-ops, etc.
When indie studios go wrong, it's like a convergence of the worst aspects 1. film industry where the "creative genius" has bad behavior enabled, and 2. Startups, where it's kinda sorta technically a company, but in reality there is no HR, no organizational checks and balances, etc. I'm beginning to think that for any studio receiving certain level of funding, there should be a mandatory HR standards enforced by the funding entity (Annapurna, etc)
Yeah, the hierarchical, authoritarian structure of the capitalist workplace isn't the sole cause of this kind of situation, but it certainly aggravates and enables it.
I agree 100%. It's not merely a few apples that are rotten. It's the bloody orchard that was planted on toxic ground.
@@lonelykitchen the majority of popular games are not popular only because they're inherently great - they're popular because the directors have solid contacts, which they typically only have because their primary skills are people-based.
What you call creative genius is not even creative at all, let alone genius - it's just promotional prowess. PR+HR savviness. Which is precisely what the real creators often lack.
And yes, both sides matter; it does take a cunning "iron fist" type of director to effectively manage a solid creative team in a way that leads to substantial results.
However, the way things shape up these days is that people are regarded as expendable, when it's ultimately the people who make the games. The directors just push people around - and as demonstrated here, they often push people around in rather inhumane, demeaning, toxic, disrespectful and ultimately unproductive ways than end up costing a lot of money to the publishers since it easily leads to staff resignation, mental breakdowns, production delays, and all sorts of unnecessary drama.
Which is why the work being done here is of tremendous importance, since it will ultimately benefit this industry we all love, as well as the creators behind the games we all love.
It's a win-win dynamic, very much unlike that of the present exploitative, toxic paradigm.
@@TheManWithTheFlan
Organizational structures are inherently gonna be hierarchical. It's simply more efficient that way. The issue comes in the form of authoritarian leaders, middlemen, and other people being incompetent and unfit.
I wish this wasn't as common as it is, but sadly it happens far too frequently. I know at least 3 more studios working on wholesome games that have incredibly toxic working environments, they haven't hit the news yet and maybe never will - their stories aren't mine to tell.
When you have an industry that claims 'you need passion to work here' you create an open playing field for predatory leadership to take advantage of that passion.
Can you please name these studios? I want to make well informed choice before buying games.
Thank you
I agree with Red Pandah. If you know about abuse, it's your responsibility to speak up about it. "It's not my story to tell" is enabling.
You don't need to tell. If someone told you in confidence, that's part of their journey to heal. Taking that away from them could be hurtful.
@@guptaamey You aren't wrong, but it absolutely is a double-edged sword. Not telling may be needed for convalescence for the abused, but it leaves the abuser clean to do it to someone else. I think in the end, tell is the best, least harmful, most helpful action to known abuses.
Shame on you.
Holy shit, that last one. If that’s how she treats her employees, I shudder to imagine how she treats her students. And it’s not a net positive for her to remain in the industry if she’s a hypocrite who hurts and humiliates the very same people she claims to want representation and advocacy for.
I don't have a strong personality myself, not at all, and I still "get games made"
It's all about patience and saying "no" to pressure. I refuse deadlines, I just release when the game is in a good state.
And here's exactly why I much prefer to self publish.
I refuse pressure.
To all the artists I commission, I say the same thing: "take your time". Because I'd never want to inflict that kind of stress to others.
You are based
14:09 That line is caught my attention. We gone from the old days were formless companies were attached to game titles to to very identifiable personalities. For one side the people who envisioned these games are finally getting the recognition they deserve but as a side effect this could be creating a scenario where you let this kind of horrible behavior to go unpunished because the higher ups wants their own game seller Personality
yeah, this is happening across industries and economies as a response to people complaining about the facelessness of the business world - now, the faces are big and bright, and business owners indistinguishable from celebrities. problem is, the same wrongdoings committed behind a mask of grey facelessness can be committed behind a mask of a strapping young man in khakis
Even beyond higher ups wanting to protect the face of a development team, it takes away the recognition of the numerous people that made a game what it is and applies it solely to one person. You see people constantly talk about how much of a genius Hideo Kojima or Hidetaka Miyazaki are, but never the people working directly on the smaller parts of the whole.
This goes back a long way. You may hear about it more now, but it's been there.
Since all the name recognition is associated with the game seller's Personality, it seems like in these cases the publisher were very reluctant to provide any valid\enough support to the team around the tyrant. When the publicity gets bad enough it's an easy choice to just eject the team members or shut down the project, the high profile staff member have the luxury of taking a few years to 'move to Adelaide to work themselves out', or just move on to a new project or role.
It must be so awful to be in worker's situation, they get shafted no matter what and they are the only ones that would seem to take a job opportunity\industry credibility hit from it.
Really disappointed in Annapurna. It's one thing to not be able to interfere from their position as publisher, but it's another to literally say "okay get rid of all these people, keep the abuser, and hire people who won't complain". That's so fucked up.
This is the best source of games/variety journalism on youtube, easily.
You ever seen Jimquisition? They cover the abuse in a lot of the big games corporations
@@nassiemartinez4399 yeah but their work isn't exactly journalism lol - it's more highly repetitive complaining made necessary by the awful abuses in the games industry. I love JSS but in this context the style of presentation alone shows what angle they're coming from and it's not a journalistic one lol
Edit: Not saying there's anything wrong with opinionated angry TH-cam rants (like I said I actually quite like JSS) - just that it's not exactly journalism
@@TheRenaSystem yea ur right
I hope they got the funding they need to keep this going.
@@nassiemartinez4399 Jim covers other peoples work. Doesn't do his own journalism.
Ya my ex-GF had this kind of person as a professor in art school studying graphic design. The professor was an icon doing editorial design but people left studio assemblies in tears and were thinking about quitting their studies (while doing MA course). She also was using personal information about people against them. The professor herself was also often in tears not understanding why everybody was against her. She could be really superficial (as art directors/graphic designers tend to be;o) ) and was judging me, the struggling underperforming illustration student she actually didn’t know well, on the hallway by my looks, saying I would be someone. Her judgement about me still sucks though.
Damn, seeing footage of Outer Wilds in the hover preview got me scared for Mobius Digital (though they're also published by Annapurna)
For real. I rushed in because I saw it and got worried.
Yeah, it's not fair to Mobius Digital that they appear in that hover preview, but I guess as uploader you have no control over that?
It doesn't for me. I wonder if it changed or if there are multiple previews for different situations (maybe device specific?)
Well this is quite a thing to see from this angle. I was one of those students in the class lectured by Robin Hunicke class of 2020. Some of the early tells were that she didn't show up to the first lecture (even tweeted about it while we were just kind of waiting), the other professor tried to rally the students to send a message to the uni higher ups that this was normal behavior for her and that we should expect professionalism, and their were clearly some scars from the previous year (but your gonna need somebody else for that story). It's ironic to hear that her devs though she was distracted by being a professor when we thought she probably spent no time on being a good professor because she was distracted with her company.
The other professor was right as well, she did often miss lectures and when she did show, she really didn't have a lecture plan of any kind. Often going on about nonsense like 'empty boats' and making it sound like half the people in the indie scene are troublesome and immature. Eventually about 70% of the class stopped attending her lectures. I do wonder how it eventually played out with the other professor though.
The last thing to mention is my project team's interaction with her. I basically never interacted with her personally, others will have to tell you about that but I heard it was bad. So every 2 weeks she would playtest our project and give feedback. We quickly learned that her feedback was useless. She was completely unable to grasp what our game wanted to be, and what it didn't want to be, giving the classic feedback of 'oh your game should be like that other game'. She also had a really hard time staying focused on what we were asking feedback for, often drifting toward systems and mechanics that were just unfinished. Some of our team would start to leave the room during those playtests cause it honestly just made them angry. Also I did hear some negative things from other teams and got the feeling the experience was mutual.
Being gaslit at work is fucking awful. I've been through it several times and sometimes it got to the point where I was fainting from the stress and anxiety
35:20 really resonated with me as someone who was in academia for a long time. I can only speak to the sciences but there are so many renowned and respected professors who are frankly abusive to their students and post docs. And even the “good ones” are often just “Not actively bad.” Unfortunately the traits that make you a brilliant scientist and a good researcher (and even if you’re a nice, well-meaning person) doesn’t mean you’re any good at being a manager, but the way the system works, if you’re the head of a lab, that’s what you have to be. And therefore this can make things really, really difficult for the people who work for you.
this really strikes a chord with me. I recently have gone through signficant emotional abuse at the hands of a friend. I want nothing more than to speak up. To scream about how horrible my life was because of this person. And I feel they are protected because of their position, I could risk my career by coming forward. I'm so hurt by what happened, and I don't know what to do. I'm scared. It's nice to hear the wide support for the victims here. It comforts me.
i hope you're safe now. or at least able to protect yourself. it's not an easy thing to recognize and act upon.
"I am going to start my own studio so I can fully realize my artistic vision without having to compromise to other people's ideas!" meets "I am going to work at a small studio, so I can have more input in the creative process and more personal contact with my colleagues"
I just signed up as a Patron. More of this kind of journalism is needed so badly in the games industry. Thank you.
Unionize your workplaces indie devs! Build worker co-ops if you can! These assholes can get away with their cruelties because they hold all the power via their ownership. If you all share the power, you all become responsible for each other.
Nah let game industry itself die
Absolutely agree. Unions or coops are the only realistic way to redress the power imbalance that allows bosses to get away with shitty, toxic, abusive behaviour, not paying their workers enough, and more.
@@siddheshpillai3807 with the existence of video games, and especially indies, the industry will never die, any time one group falls apart, twelve more will be there to fill the space.
@@bugdracula1662 seriously I hate game industry their ethics are God awful their actions are more worse than bill Cosby and i wish this media dies forever sooner rather than later and this time no more third chance period
@@siddheshpillai3807 that's very broad, and while I agree that there are a lot of very shitty people and groups, this is not a problem exclusive to games, and not every game developer is bad.
Videos like this are the reason I'm proud to be a patron. The toxicity that can come from putting people on untouchable pedastals is a real problem in multiple industries, and it's something that definitely needs to be talked about.
Also, as a dev myself it's just nice to hear someone acknowledge that a load of different people with a load of different skillsets put in huge amounts of work to make the stuff we love. The tendancy for the media to focus on the individual rather than the collective sometimes obscures that.
I work in animation and you hear similar stories about 'superstars' in animation. I was lucky in that I worked for several really great studios and never encountered one of these people till I was quite far along in my career and then worked with an Art Director who treated all the women on his team like dirt to the point one of them told me they were having panic attacks in the morning thinking about coming into work. This person made several comments to them about how they'd ruin their careers if they got out of line cus they were so well connected in the industry. They tired that on me but thankfully I've been around long enough and had such support at pervious studios that I knew my worth and stood up to them...they were very confused. Despite myself and several crew putting in complaints they weren't fired until after a screaming match with one of our clients on a video call that was very uncomfortable to sit through. What annoyed me though was the number of younger male crew who weren't aware of any of the issues, who are still connected with this person via social media and idolise them because of their resume. I contacted some people at one of the big studios he'd worked for and got feedback that he had similar issues there and was let go yet he's still able to get work based off having these big names on his resume
I recently walked away from a small startup only one month into the job after seeing some of the same red flags described in this video. Only advice I can offer to others is to trust your instinct because things will often go downhill once these abusive types see that you are willing to put up with their b.s
When you see games like celeste, hollow knight, cuphead, those aren't an author's game, we always have a team in mind when thinking about who made it. These games existing show that it's far from necessary to make great games. Not that it can't work with the right people, but that's like everything.
14:46 I never heard a more poignant and potent experience that indicates the vital necessity for unionization across the entire game industry. If true in any capacity, that moment shows a bigger problem within the industry that go beyond Kent or any individual toxic manager.
In my experience people that start their own studios tend to be particularly driven and rather bad with other people. And when they are successful, often their very worst tendencies get amplified. In addition to that, the smaller a studio is, the more potential for drama you have. I am certain there are exceptions to this, but basically if you have fewer people and they all have limited social skills (as most game-developers do) that creates increasing friction.
The companies that handle this best are those that have grown enough, have a decent HR system and where the founder of the company has either stepped down/moved on, or pursued some niche role where they actually just deliver good work.
it is fascinating to me how much the experiences these folks had in this creative field parallel the experience i had working in a niche christian worship music organization. i am sad that there's a similar pain, but it's also an extraordinary comfort to know that people in another field going through something similar to what i experienced call it abuse, and intolerably so - even if there is sometimes no justice or the abusive leaders keep their position even after abuse is exposed. i'm sorry for every single one of you who know this pain, that you endured this abuse and gaslighting. but for whatever it's worth, you are not alone, and you've made me feel less alone. we're not alone. what we experienced was wrong, and looking around at these stories can make it hard to hope. i still deal with the fears of landing in another similar work environment, of finding somewhere safe and having leadership change and being subject to it again. that's real. and i share that in case anyone else is feeling it and feeling crazy over it. People Make Games, thank you for investigating this, for shining a light on it, for validating their stories and exposing the wrongdoing. thank you for helping keep that hope alive.
The story about Mountains made me jump back in time when I was in a band, rhythm guitarist but still a person and music/art passionate
Same environment, the founder wasn't all that democratic, actually every idea we had wasn't discussed if HE didn't like it, only one idea was going to be real, one I suggested, but rather than "that's good" and improvements or development I've done over melody or stuff was received by him with "ok", nothing else.
He even tried to betray us because the label was going to have a secret deal with him only, too bad everyone of us had access to the email inbox and we found out about that and bailed out
Wanted to express my appreciation for the work y’all do, and the care shown for the sources who put their trust in you.
For those of you who want to get into the industry but are worried about the prevalence of abuse, I urge you to take a moment to think and realize that you are part of a new generation of devs who could make and be the change. Unions, co-ops, and other egalitarian structures of businesses exist out there that could help lessen the prevalence and impact of worker abuse in the industry. Don't be scared- stick together, stand for each other, and remember that there's strength in numbers and community.
24:26
"Robin had worked for EA-"
Yup. That was it.
I'm an organizational and interpersonal communication major at a large college. I'll be honest, anyone who ever finds themselves in a leadership position should take classes in it. I think a lot of people overlook communication and how you treat people as a leader, or even how you're treated as a follower, both positions that many people will find themselves in at some point or another. It's not seen as important when compared to the end goal. But wow, when you really start researching and understanding the different ways to communicate with people, it becomes very evident that these skills aren't bogus. They're essential. Everywhere.
I worked in such an environment in a small fashion brand in tokyo. It was living hell every day. I am glad to see those affected by this are trying to heal from their wounds and hope they will be better
As a queer person myself, one who even really connected with Gone Home, I never want employees to think that their well being is worth less than media representation. If anyone in a similar situation reads this, you personally matter. Don't let yourself be made into a martyr by someone who will get all the credit while you're thrown in the dustbin of history
At least modern society is a lot more open for different kinds of representation, we are moving forwards, just slowly
i can see in your name and pfp
@@CutMeSomeSlackTheVII Kay
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 she’s a lesbian. You not being able to understand one of the most common flags in the lgbt community really tells me about your knowledge. It’s like when a religious person criticises evolution but also obviously knows absolutely jack shit about it.
She can be open about her sexuality if she wants. I’m part of the LGBT community and I’m sure as hell not going to be open about it because people like you exist.
@@sparklesparklesparkle6318 thanks for being a sensitive little sunflower and getting super upset because someone is part of the lgbt community, and then feeling the need to publicly cry about it on an internet comment section.
I don’t even know why I’m responding, people like you who start stuff like this over quite literally nothing are all trolls that are worth nobody’s time. All you want is that sweet kick of controversy.
I'm not too surprised, many people termed "creative/visionary" I've met in the past had horrible character flaws. Like being racist, mean, or absolutely terrible leaders. Couple that with our systemic bolstering of power structures and we get this sort of thing in every industry, especially media. There's obviously more coverage of media because of its reach, so we hear about this but the same thing in other work environments will never reach us.
This most be one of the best documentary channels on TH-cam, they do such good jobs helping you understand, and bringing up unusual but important topics! Love this channel!
Thank you for telling these stories. As an aspiring game developer, and as a fan of games, your work is really impactful, nuanced and important. Almost unique on this space, thank you!
Let me start with, this is not an excuse for Ken. But as someone who knows him and worked with him in a peer relationship, I think I understand how his behaviors came to be... Ken and I both had an abusive boss in the past. A narcissist who was elevated far beyond his knowledge that started to believe his own hype and who would constantly tear down others and butt heads with anyone who questioned him. It sounds like... sadly... Ken learned these behaviors and they're now reflected in how he believes you should manage a studio. The only way for him to fix this is probably years of therapy and unravelling these learned bad behaviors, plus management training. I hope he'll take the necessary steps to do so because there's a good artist with smart design sense in there... Just need to get rid of the toxic crap. :(
Unfortunately people like this will rarely admit they have a problem or that they need help for that problem.:(
@@richardwilliams877 Generally speaking yeah, but Ken is more empathic than you might think. The question is if he can perceive where his faults lie. If I encounter him again I'll endeavor to have a talk with him.
@@DesignerDave Share this video with him, there's your opener.
I can sortha empathize with him.
Changes are hard, some behavioral changes are even harder.
I can see him as trying to be perfeccionist, taking things beyond the limit, making your best to go above your level. This is something from the industry that has been an issue for some time, I think that was Blizzard that made it mainstream. To makes things worse, Ken, it seems, has really bad communication skills. So it's a really bad mix-up of stuff..
I also dont believe that Annapurna gave him that advice of recreating the company, it could be a rumor that gained its trustness in this turmoil. But who knows.
One thing he could do and I see as not being so difficult was stepping down when he had chance. He should've thrown his ego away and do something to show he is indeed trying. not the easiest thing, but compared to behavioral changes... yeah, not that hard.
But yeah, he knows stuff, let's hope he improves so he can keep on going directing more amazing games!
nobody should empathize with this guy, what the fuck? he abuses people with no remorse. it doesnt matter if he "became" abusive, he is an abuser that traumatizes people to make himself feel good. yeah, he can change, but he probably wont. and doesn't deserve any empathy at all until the very very unlikely event he actually puts in extreme amounts of effort to change
!!!!!!! PUBLISHERS LIKE ANNAPURNA SHOULD BE REQUIRED TO OFFER HR SERVICES TO STUDIOS THAT ARE TOO SMALL TO HAVE THEIR OWN HR DEPARTMENT !!!!!!!!
So does Annapurna have "Abusive Studio Head" as part of their requirements for publishing?
Lmfao do you think a publisher should have that power over a developer that they can get people fired? It's the head's fault for not keeping checks and balances.
publishers have nothing to do with how the game is made, dont lump them into this.
They don't have that power, true. They do have the power, however, to not be dismissive about it, something they don't see a problem in doing, apparently.
How do you propose, from both a legal and contractual standpoint, that publishers "not be dismissive" towards problems within development studios? I'd love for you to explain this as if you were in the publisher's shoes, complete with a list of the legal rights that you think you could rely on for your proposed actions.
@@mljh11 The condescending tone of your "how do you propose, from both a legal and contractual standpoint" and your "complete with a list of the legal rights that you think you could rely on for your proposed actions", as if i was a lawyer or Annapurna's legal team, is so, so predominant, that you just made crystal clear how much you, a person with a completely anonymous account, want to waste my time, patience and peace of mind. Not belittling the abuse suffered by a team of devs with lines such as 'without strong personalities games don't get made' is in the power of a publisher, no? not fostering and promoting an enviroment to toxic auteur culture? Those are simple ways to not be dismissive. Ways of not being complicit to an entire systematic issue. Of not secretely supporting their indie cash cows in abusing and sabotaging their workers. But you already knew that. So don't answer me again, please? You're exactly the kind of person i tend to block on social media.
Abusive bosses are totally shit. I, like tons of people, have been through it and my heart goes out to anyone who’s been fucked with or is getting fucked with in that games industry right now. No matter how bleak it’s made to seem by asshole bosses, there is always tons of other workers who are ready to lend and ear and provide support and accountability. Even if abusive rhetoric was true, and we all did unsatisfactory work, we still wouldn’t deserve to be made to feel anything but appreciated, respected, and supported in jobs. Solidarity forever people! I love you all
I guess Annapurna are significantly more attracted to certain kinds of developers than others. “No no we can’t support this developer, they don’t practice enough tyranny!” or “Ah, now this office? I can smell the fear in this office.”
As an aspiring game developer, I commend you in making this video. Now I am armed with knowledge about toxic work environments.
Great video PMG, this was a tough watch. I've gotten so used to hearing these kinds of toxic practices from the AAA space that I didn't even fathom that it can happen to indie studios as well.
It's even more jarring when the games made are heart felt and emotional experiences, while behind closed doors it was anything but for the employees. I hope those affected get the help and healing they need.
In these smaller studios the bosses allways pretend to be your buddies. They will do game nights or have a discord server n shit like that but in the end they decide if you can pay your rent. This highly discourages unionizing, often elading to people working more than they are payed for and having no private life cause your boss follows you on social media and knows what steam games you play. With these inclusive studios they know they got power cause they fucking know the person they hired has less options elsewere. Small buisnesses aren't more ethical than big ones, it's just that people dont talk about them. I worked in two small indie dev studios and both used mostly unpayed or underpayed labor of students and interns all with minimal experience in the buisness world and therefore easily exploitable.
Your boss isn't your friend, at the end of the day they pay your wages and decide if you got food on the table. They also extort your surplus labor but that is another story.
Sad stories, these people deserve better. My takeaway from this video and countless other stories in the last few years is to never trust a company, specially those that pass themselves as "inclusive", because a lot of the time, they are just trying to hide their horrible practices behind a mask and making themselves look good so they can sell more of their products. Always be skeptic and make sure that they practice what they speak!
i'm so sad and frustrated for my friends in this industry. this terrible culture is not limited to the headlines but is rife in the majority of game companies i've worked for. i can assure you that most game industry workers have the same story. sending love and good wishes to everyone still trapped in a hateful studio trying to get through the week. there are better opportunities for you and you are worth it.
this channel is one of the most important forces in this industry and I deeply appreciate y'all's efforts to consciously mitigate against potential harm for people who come forward while ensuring that the issue is highlighted
interesting to compare the 'problems' all three of these creators seemed to face.
- ken wong seemed aware of his social issues, and says he tried hard to change them, but then very diplomatically admits "these actions were not always enough": he had problems and couldn't fix them. he continued to cause other people pain, because what else was he to do? he gave up trying to force any change, and just stayed the same.
- steve gaynor seems to have had an issue with the combination of social power and women, showing his ingrained biases and patronising people with his micromanagement. seems to be pretty standard, and it's no surprise that annapurna got rid of him only when he was jeopardising a game that seemed profitable. the issues seem more with annapurna's lack of real help - they got the project back on track, but they didn't try to fix the issues with steve, didn't ask employees what was going on and what people were feeling. a socially painful work environment is going to make shit art, or at least compromised art.
- robin hunicke is a really interesting one. a public display of inclusivity gives her a high standard to live up to. i agree with a point made by one of the anonymous employees, that you are usually most aggressive to the others who reflect your own insecurities and personal issues. digging up dirt on coworkers, and strategically using that to keep the people around her looking 'less woke' than herself.
these stories are similar in that there's one person, at the top of the company food chain, using their power in bad ways that bring out the bad sides of them.
- wong seems to have communication and anger issues (but kept on because he was the 'important visionary')
- gaynor seems to have general issues working with women (and was only booted when the negative press threatened to hurt sales and prestige of the studio)
- hunicke seems to be so self-conscious of appearing inclusive and accepting that she was forced into performing a perfect image of diversity, which required some serious painting over her own ingrained biases, and involved just shitting on other people to remain on top. and it seems like this is still happening.
i feel bad for everyone involved. i can understand the reasoning behind these guys' actions, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they hurt people. i don't know how to bridge that gap, but it's an explanation, not an excuse.
this is all just my opinion, obvs. interested to read other people's responses to this investigation. thanks PMG, very well made vid.
I used to be friends with someone who acted exactly like Hunicke but without using personal info in public settings. She had this very quiet demeanor so you wouldn't necessarily expect this kind of behavior from her before you got to know her. She was super outspoken about social justice issues, but treated everyone around her like shit, and any time you called her on it or did something she didn't like, she would take you aside, usually while you were with other friends so there wasn't really any privacy, and berate you until you were in tears, telling you how your behavior was hurting her, just embarrass the shit out of you in front of other people. She also really liked to use how "woke" she was to belittle and condescend to the people around her, she'd spin stuff and make it seem like an innocuous joke you made was some massively racist thing and you were irredeemable because of it. (Also this is not me shitting on the concept of social justice, I am very left wing but I hate when people co-opt the language of these topics and movements and use the power that gives them to abuse other people, I think it contributes to a lot of the leftist infighting). It took this happening to me several times and talking to other friends outside of the friend group to realize I wasn't the problem, she was. I think she picked up on my own anxieties and self-esteem issues and thought that I'd just put up with it forever. The worst part is I'm pretty sure she plans to become a teacher, I feel bad for her future students.
Edit: Ah almost forgot, she also used her relation to someone with a mental disability to deflect criticism of her behavior.
@@serenityinajar interesting story, i understand the vibe. i'm also heavy left leaning, but have complicated opinions on the way we're moving toward more diversity - due to exactly this kind of behaviour, from hunicke and the person you knew.
while they may be good for diversity, they're still abusing people around them, just using a more acceptable means. minorities are simplified down to a tool to deflect criticism, but the abusive intent comes in shitting on the people around you to make yourself feel bigger.
interesting connection between people viewing minorities as 'lesser', and the abusive act of punching down the people around you. like your personal power imbalance is mixed up with societal power imbalances. shitting on those who are already in the gutter, but wielding their minority status for your own gain.
we have a long way to go as a species, but we seem to always be going somewhere. sorry you had to deal with that unpleasant person, but glad it seems to have worked out.
When I graduated from school, and was first looking for work in the games industry, I remember seeing that Funomena was hiring. I was a huge fan of Katamari and even met Keita once when he was giving a talk. I ended up not applying, but if I ever did get in, I cannot imagine having that be my first experience in games. I had no interest in working at a AAA studio, because I was scared of all the stories of abuse, racism and misogyny, but this was a good reminder that indies are at no less risk.
For those looking to enter the industry, please do research and ASK QUESTIONS during the interview(s). Crunch, work-life balance, the people on staff, etc. Watch for red flags and trust your gut. Avoid being starstruck, because a bad studio will definitely use that against you.
thank you for documenting this! i've always appreciated the amount of work that goes into these videos.
It feels this is going to be the next hit to game development, especially with the reports coming out about Moon Studios. I'm glad people are finally speaking out and not just putting up with these working conditions, but it's sad of what I'm hearing about some of my favourite developers.
Hopefully it means change is coming to all studios going forward.
Incredible work as always. Bringing to light the stories in the games industry that are typically dismissed. These are the people that make the games we love, and the only way to protect them and change this industry for the better, is to bring these matters into the spotlight. Thank you for all you do.
Every video I've seen from you all have been so incredibly thorough and well explained. High-quality.
This is really f'ing depressing. I know, humans are complicated and everyone has moments where they just snap for a relatively small reason. I get that. But why can't so many devs working on games that SHOW THE VULNERABILITY OF HUMANITY just talk to people eye-to-eye? Thanks for the video, much appreciated! Cheers!
I just wanted to say, I really appreciate that you caption your videos! it's a big help for me and my processing issues and other people who have trouble hearing. keep up the great work!!
While it’s kinda sad that you have to take on this role, I appreciate your work as whistleblowers, first the roblox stuff, now this…
Every piece from this channel is so incredibly important, laying bare the complexities of game development that simply aren't usually covered, instead being buried under the discussions of auteurs and quality experiences that you so aptly point out. For someone interested in the industry, this was so enlightening to me and, if anything, videos like these will hopefully be bricks in the wall ensuring those setting up studios today will do better. 💪
Less than a minute in and I see footage of Wattam. Uh oh.
This channel is becoming really special. I love your focus on sensitive yet important subjects and how delicately you handle and delivery them.
youre doing amazing work with these vids. super happy this channel is finding more success
I am amazed by the deepness of your investigations, I am very happy this channel exists
Yo why doesnt TH-cam let me watch this video? I get a ''The following content may contain suicide or self-harm topics'' warning, I click ''I understand and wish to proceed'', and it still wont let me proceed. it just doesnt go away
ye me too
Thank you so much for your continued dedication to reporting on important stories within my favorite industry.
I had no idea about Ken Wong & Mountains. I bought Florence because "oh this seems cool and fun" and it was and then I learn that there was a guy who monstered all the people who make it. Geeze! Can't trust anyone these days!
Happy to see you’ve gotten the support you need to keep making videos!!’ Love you guys :)
Please more of these videos, the format is so unique and so refreshing.
An unsurprising, and yet still chilling, thing to learn.
Thanks for helping bring these situations to light, and for making this video. 👏🏻👏🏻💪🏻💪🏻
This video resonates with me. It disheartens me to a significant degree to hear others discuss how those who choose to behave poorly (to put it nicely) are rewarded, while those who are hurt are punished... to a degree that impacts them not only professionally, but personally - sometimes for life. This is trauma.
Some of this activity is criminal. Definitely sickening. Unethical. Unhealthy. I've still not recovered from several experiences I've had. What do you do?
I've seen livelihoods destroyed by corrupt entities - often led by a single individual who's supported by an entity profiting from them. It's just awful. I sincerely hope everyone sees the dishonesty going on by select parties here. It's soul crushing when you go to others for help - and are betrayed by those who should help. Often, ironically, hurting themselves in the process.
Can confirm this, sadly and I can agree with this comment. 😢
I've experienced this at two different companies. An individual at the top of the chain who calls random meetings, sets the target for a product, and then changes it after a few weeks, doesn't trust their staff and verbally abuses people in front of the team, even out of work at company socials. The result was always a massive turnover of staff and many failed and generally poor quality projects
Thank you for making this kinds of videos. Such a sad reality that, frankly, seems to extend through not only the video game industry, but other creative fields. Proud of the cahnnel for shining a light on these issues and of the people that spoke out about them. Sending you all a big hug
Fantastic important work - I'm honestly floored not even that this is happening, but that all these articles could have been written and this is still news to me; the industry isn't just dismissing these stories, but failing in some cases to highlight them when they come to light. Chris, please continue doing what you do - it is such fundamental work to making games into a better space for everyone, those playing and those making.
It's touched on with Robin, but can't help but notice how all these people presented themselves outwardly as well, reminds me of Jennifer Scheurle and the allegations there too. I worked extensively in advocacy for vulnerable groups (and am a minority myself) before getting into gamedev and there were similar people there. Frequently, those who had some charisma and said "the right things" or who could portray a certain image, became the leaders and figureheads for entire organizations; Even while being abusive or incompetent internally. The public and media frequently tend to take things at face value, the perception or image trusted over any red flags. Or the belief that broader political implications are more important than people being harmed - and I appreciate your channel and your work, but have seen you enable that in particular too. It can be very hard not to, it's effectively a developed skill to recognize when it's occurring and can conflict with important beliefs or the sense of belonging (it requires a lot of introspection, as one of the anonymous quotes indicates).
It often means these types end up being able to abuse others, especially the most vulnerable, for extended periods of time - as is the case with these. And my experience is that the broader industry and most observers are just not equipped to handle it. My attempts to point out red flags or discuss these issues has been met with outright hostility and some pretty disgusting labelling. Glad that you tackle these things, but I've not got a lot of hope for meaningful change honestly.
I'm curious what you meant with broader political implications being more important than people being harmed and this channel enabling it. I think I have an idea of what you mean but I'm not 100% sure.
I also strongly agree with the idea that people saying "the right things" or portraying a certain image makes all the difference to some people despite lack of actual qualities. I try to avoid this type of people, both the ones trying to fit it and those seeing it as the holy grail of capability
I'll reply to your both at once if that's alright, since there's overlap.
Regarding broader implications, I'll give a (somewhat vague - due to privacy issues) example from my work that might help. In one case, a post-secondary educational institute started another in a line of outreach program that was intended to provide skills development to indigenous high school students for a position in the trades and to allow them to explore career options. Unfortunately, a number of staff had racial issues with that and the students were secretly made to do menial tasks like cleaning instead of being instructed in anything useful. The institute had developed a reputation for being welcoming to minorities in other fields and was worried spreading awareness of the incident would discourage those groups from attending and entering into the careers they offered (their diversity officer even agreed with the rationale). Which meant they wanted to silence (NDA) the victims in the case, and block my organization from further investigation and providing wider materials in general to prevent similar incidents - In other words, the optics and their potential effect were more important the people who had basically been used as slave labor or preventing a repeat.
And for an example where I wasn't in an official position, something similar was happening during the sexual abuse allegations surrounding the head and vice-head of GaymerX con some time back. Where the allegations had been swirling for years but had been suppressed because of how it might affect perception of the broader community (their behavior did sadly play into some negative stereotypes) or diminish attendance for an important queer space. I'd actually approached some of the other staff with my concerns about the toxic behavior, but was told I was "the wrong kind of queer" and told I shouldn't ever attend. They were eventually removed, but only after there were so many victims it was impossible to ignore, and sadly many media outlets still refused to discuss it. So again, the optics mattered more than the victims or awareness.
For one where I had no involvement, but appears to have been similar: The allegations against Scheurle I mentioned extended across multiple organizations, including abuse while mentoring minorities for the IDGA - which claims to do some similar advocacy to what I did. I've heard secondhand and so can't confirm, but been told that the main org and many branches have such issues are far more concerned about their public relations image over anything else, and that it's been the case for many, many years. At least in that case, it looks like BlackBird Interactive actually lived up to the standards they outwardly portray.
This isn't uncommon and takes many forms in many fields, but it's not something that can be rationally defended. The harms of the past are only perpetuated by covering up the harms of the present, even if it might result in a "bad look".
The last message was so long, I'm breaking out suggestions on "red flags"/behavior avoidance into a separate comment. In this regard, "red flags" should be taken as potential indications - not certainties, and it usually requires multiple to be present to raise concern. They're not hard and fast rules and might be difficult to apply in various situations, which is why it's more of a learned/experience based skill and can be difficult to implement. Those caveats aside, I'd say the most important ones are...
Assuming criticism comes (or doesn't come) from a specific source - In other words, don't assume someone criticizing an initiative, belief, game, another person, etc, is a certain demographic or not part of the group it relates to. I could be wrong, but I feel like this relates to one of the anonymous comments regarding Robin. Where a minority trying to speak up regarding their experience, especially with someone perceived to be a "diversity champion", is often dismissed out of hand. Or to say it another way, "You're a white cis het man pretending to be a..." as a form of deflection. Minorities are not a monolith, they are individuals and should be treated and accepted as such and not doing so is it's own form of racial stereotyping (This is one I've seen PMG do often enough that I had to unfollow/mute their twitter - though it often was supporting the narratives of others, instead of that they enaged in it directly, as a mitigating factor). It's of course possible for trolls to pretend what they're not, but it just shouldn't be the default assumption as it can silence voices and in general we shouldn't reduce people to their labels anyway - no matter what they happen to be (this is a core concept of intersectionality that often gets ignored or only applied in a very limited way, a lived experience can't be reduced to only a handful of factors, which in themselves are already only trend indicators).
Related to this, is the assumption based on their own cultural centering - Basically assuming that everywhere experiences dynamics in the same way, or in the same proportion, etc, as they do. This often results in a lot of the same issues as traditional imperialism/colonialism, where voices from other nations may be forced to adopt the perspectives of a dominant nation, or remain silent because they may be attacked for not following a certain political line. It requires a good amount of empathy and introspection to break out of this.
And further related to that, is the assumption that what works for one place or situation will work for another. What helps in the US for example, may not help in various nations in Africa. This single perspective approach often also ends up causing wider harm and can indicate an only surface level understanding of the issues - sometimes meaning they don't really care.
Then there's also just evaluating how they treat others in general. Someone who is aggressive, dismissive or otherwise abusive to those who are not minorities, can easily be all those things to minorities behind closed doors (it indicates a personality trait, or behavior they find generally acceptable). Predators will often try and exploit championed issues to give that impeccable image outwardly, but often treat those who don't provide them something badly. Generally, real champions start from a place of respect, regardless of who they are dealing with (e.g. Mandela). People (and companies - see Activision Blizzard) may talk the talk, even give talks about a subject, but it's far more worthwhile to evaluate actual behavior, what someone does, like how they treat those they consider the least of their peers, than anything else.
This is also where the concept of "virtue signaling" comes in, which can be misused as a label, but is also often too easily dismissed (performative activism is sometimes the more formal term, though I haven't seen a consensus on what to call it yet). Often when it's just a signal, rather than something meaningful, they will often try and center themselves in the conversation or otherwise highlight themselves or their accomplishments - usually the topic itself is more in the background or used as a podium for their promotion, rather than being the core of the message itself. Or in extreme cases, they may even request support for projects or "organizations" that primarily benefit themselves (it's why things like Charity Navigator and similar become important for evaluating whether funding actually has an effect). They also often pursue or try and encourage authoritarian solutions to goals, as this can provide them further control of the topic and narrative which also therefore allows them to extend their power or cover over any misdeeds. That also allows them to be exclusionary, especially of any who might be critical or take a closer look at what's occurring in or around the topic and organizations. That's something which a real advocate will usually welcome (though exceptions exist), as it allows them to further educate and draw in people to a cause from outside those who are already onboard - convincing skeptics is often a huge boost to progress or can mainstream the advocacy work.
I think that covers all the major points and hope it's helpful (and not overwhelming). The very short version is that most dedicated advocates aren't selective in how they apply their principles or who they apply them to. Mutual respect as well as mutual accountability are core to how meaningful and lasting change is accomplished.