@@j.r.r.tolkien8724 it’s not about “learning languages”- syntax is easy to learn. Writing better code is about far more than syntax. If that doesn’t click, you haven’t written enough code or built/maintained enterprise code.
I've been a developer for over 10 years. I guess there was a point where I used to think like that. But no. It doesn't work that way. Each language has its own approach and best practices. If you want a solid foundation learn algorithms. It won't matter what language you use from then. Also what is considered best practise in Rust won't even work in other languages.
Man this is a hot take lol. Golang 0-90 is great, 90-100 is slow, whereas rust 0-20 is really hard but 20-100 is not only rewarding but easy. When I see takes like these I always wonder how much experience these people actually have in rust.
you're right about 0-20 but there's another really hard peak on 70-100 (below that you can still do a lot) when going async/multi-threaded/low-level/unsafe and going for generics impl/traits (type masturbation) is something hard to master
@@snoupix3332 Rust is a low level language. All of this stuff is important concepts to learn in low level programming, but tbh is much easier with rust. Understanding ownership and lifetimes (which is the true difficulty in 0-20) makes these far easier, which is why I say it's rewarding and easy. In fact even if you're working with unsafe, already understanding the "rust" way of doing things makes it far easier to get a grasp of than say in C. In stuff like that, I'd say you're pretty accurate in saying there's another sharp peak. But for rust? Nah, not so much.
I think it's the opposite. Going from 0-60 in Rust is hard. Going from 60-100 is easy. People who learn Javascript have to keep learning the language every single day, edge case after edge case. It's easy to do simple things. It's hard to do complex things. In Rust, it's comparatively harder to do simple things, but comparatively easy to do complex things.
I believe if you know python , you should learn Rust, not Go as it will rarely change the way you think when it comes to learning, for building go with Go
Rust is hard until you develop a solid understanding of ownership and lifetimes. When you have these concepts down, thinking in Rust is leaps and bounds easier _plus_ you're now using the borrow checker instead of _fighting_ it
Keep in mind melky have never tried to learn rust so his assessment is not the best . Now you as student you had to learn subject that were hard , now looking back at them I think it's fair to assume that learning them was important and yielded great benefits for you . Like imagine if some middle schooler abandoned math or physics because they were too hard ,rediclous ! Learning can be uncomfortable but persistence is how you grow as person and avoiding hard problems all the time is one way to stop yourself from expanding your knowledge and limit your potential. Rust isn't rocket science it's just a programming language as software engineer you failing to use a tool means you have work to do !
I love rust and I agree, but I also believe that you also start writing better code when a language forces you to understand when most of the things fails, know how and when to handle them, re-structure your idea to make it right and give a better product is a thing that I love from rust
I feel like people think Rust is harder than it is. I learned Rust having exclusively written Python prior. The compiler held my hand and it was easy to pick up in order to write some file management scripts on an HPC cluster. I, someone with no experience in compiled languages at the time, found it pretty straightforward. Fast forward a bit, and I had to pick up C for work to write firmware; C didn't hold my hand nearly as much, but my experience with Rust made it a lot more straightforward. All programming languages can get messy, but I feel like Rust has a rep for being more difficult than it really is in practice. Of course, maybe I just got lucky. I haven't had the chance to check out Go yet, but I've been looking into it more lately; what's your favorite/least favorite part of it?
The same thing happened to me when learning the JS frameworks React and Vue! Vue was easy to learn and be good at, and React be more difficult to improve after learning the basics! BUT, the amount of information I learned and the knowledge I gained learning React was so much more and I felt like I am always challenged to become a better developer. Plus it was so much closer to vanilla JS too
same as me. I ran from react to vue coz react was harder to pick up. But after i eventually learned react the proper way and got comfortable with it, vue became sh*t to me.
Rust is my favorite language for backend. The explicit error handling means you'll never get a cryptic 500 error. And it's fast, so you don't have to scale your service as much. AWS gives you a discount for using it.
@@michawhite7613 it's just complicated to get started with rust, a lot of ideas you need to get familiar with. As well as getti g familiar with the compiler in Rust. If you know general backend concepts then you can get a very well made backend system up and running very quickly in Go
Rust is my favorite language for backend web programming. The explicit error handling means you will almost never get a vague 500 error. The borrow checking makes race conditions less common. And I don't have to spend time or money to improve performance, since it's already 50 times faster than Python.
I quite recently started exploring Go and I really like it for it's simplicity. I think this is a real quality, especially because it is still strongly typed and compiled (this is good). However, for me hardly any language can compete with Rust. Also learning Rust added more value to me as new experience, since I professionally already develop in C# already, which is also a GC language and is a still much richer language than Go, even though Go does a certain things actually better.
I love golang, it just makes me more productive than when I write js/ts.
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I think you need a different approach to compare it. As a web-dev , solving web-dev-problems , both languages are pretty cool and you learn fast what you will need to know in both languages.
Isn't this a wrong question? People should first decide what's the thing they want to do. Design microcontrollers, hardware, write drivers for networking devices, work on a kernel, video games, do data analytics, write or design web sites or applications (business applications, trading banking etc) video games. Then start worrying about the tools. I personally don't think Rust is the best choice for someone who enjoys or wants do to web frontend or even full stack development. For a backend developer, maybe, depending on what kind of a backend for what kind of market, infra etc.
Not everybody who "wants to learn coding" already knows if they want to write kernel drivers or CLI applications that help fellow developers because they... Might not know yet what a kernel and CLI applications are. That's why, for Real beginners this "that depends on what you want to do with it" is pretty pointless..
@@maxfrischdev ok, so I just informed them about the fact that different tools are usually better suited for different jobs, and that there's a variety of very different programming jobs.
@@maxfrischdev if you’re just learning to program altogether, most would agree rust isn’t the best first language for that purpose. But even that is a purpose where some tools fit better than others.
Step 1 - learn Go. Step 2 - learn Rust. It's literally how I went about learning programming and it's been very rewarding, can't recommend it enough! Go strikes the perfect balance between teaching how programming works and being simple and easy to use. Rust relies on those programming concepts mentioned above and gives you the tools to make fsat, safe and error-prone pgrograms more easily. Also both languages are loved by the community. It's a match made in heaven.
At what point is 60? I took rust as my second language from python and the learning curve was so steep. I didn't have formal CS education so learning about type safety, memory was so difficult. But now i really enjoy coding in rust, i am still not good with the pointers but it's so fast already
It tends to be different things for different people, from what I've seen. Generally people struggle with ownership and borrowing when starting out, but some people also struggle with strict typing if they're coming from a flexibly, perhaps even dynamically typed language like JS or Python. Other people also struggle with memory and having to think about stack vs heap allocations if they're coming from a language that tries to hide that from you, again like JS or Python.
I feel like going 0-100 is easier in Rust, but going from 100-200 is tremendously difficult. Rust has a TOOON of stuff you don't need that people claim as idiomatic that other languages just skirt around.
If you're referring to Graydon Hoare, his idea for the language was much different from the community's. He wanted to make an Elixir clone, but the rest of the community decided to try replacing C++, which I think was the right decision.
@@michawhite7613Now it makes sense. Both are indeed similar when it comes to safe concurrency capabilities. Sometimes I find myself trying to chose between both for my personal projects.
Go is underestimated as a language "for learning to become a better programmer". Go is full of great design ideas and decisions, and it's super interesting to study the language from this perspective.
People don’t drop Rust because it’s “too hard” .. they ditch it when they get deeper into it and discover it’s “too wrong”, and it’s promises are mostly snake oil
Right, which is why so many big corpos are rewriting their memory critical systems in Rust, cuz of its snake oil promises. What a tool, screams so much "skill issue" with that comment.
I learned Rust to become a better programmer. It filled in tons of knowledge gaps and helped me learn to write better code other languages.
You could've learned other languages directly instead. LOL.
@@j.r.r.tolkien8724 it’s not about “learning languages”- syntax is easy to learn. Writing better code is about far more than syntax. If that doesn’t click, you haven’t written enough code or built/maintained enterprise code.
@@j.r.r.tolkien8724 if he has learned Rust then other languages aren't gonna even be a problem 😂
I've been a developer for over 10 years. I guess there was a point where I used to think like that. But no. It doesn't work that way. Each language has its own approach and best practices. If you want a solid foundation learn algorithms. It won't matter what language you use from then. Also what is considered best practise in Rust won't even work in other languages.
@@j.r.r.tolkien8724 that is what folks miss.
Man this is a hot take lol. Golang 0-90 is great, 90-100 is slow, whereas rust 0-20 is really hard but 20-100 is not only rewarding but easy. When I see takes like these I always wonder how much experience these people actually have in rust.
I have very little experience with rust
you're right about 0-20 but there's another really hard peak on 70-100 (below that you can still do a lot) when going async/multi-threaded/low-level/unsafe and going for generics impl/traits (type masturbation) is something hard to master
@@snoupix3332 Rust is a low level language. All of this stuff is important concepts to learn in low level programming, but tbh is much easier with rust. Understanding ownership and lifetimes (which is the true difficulty in 0-20) makes these far easier, which is why I say it's rewarding and easy. In fact even if you're working with unsafe, already understanding the "rust" way of doing things makes it far easier to get a grasp of than say in C. In stuff like that, I'd say you're pretty accurate in saying there's another sharp peak. But for rust? Nah, not so much.
@@MelkeyDevso your talking bs?
@@MelkeyDev so it seems kind of weird to state this stuff about rust if you yourself say you have little experience with it. Idk man, seems odd.
The most important thing is to learn what you want
I think it's the opposite. Going from 0-60 in Rust is hard. Going from 60-100 is easy. People who learn Javascript have to keep learning the language every single day, edge case after edge case. It's easy to do simple things. It's hard to do complex things. In Rust, it's comparatively harder to do simple things, but comparatively easy to do complex things.
Yes, the real problem is the skill issue
I believe if you know python , you should learn Rust, not Go as it will rarely change the way you think when it comes to learning, for building go with Go
Great take Thank you!
I started with python and your comment will make me stuck to rust rather than go, thanks
Rust is hard until you develop a solid understanding of ownership and lifetimes. When you have these concepts down, thinking in Rust is leaps and bounds easier _plus_ you're now using the borrow checker instead of _fighting_ it
I was able to use the borrow checker to write deadlock-free mutexes. It's great!
Keep in mind melky have never tried to learn rust so his assessment is not the best .
Now you as student you had to learn subject that were hard , now looking back at them I think it's fair to assume that learning them was important and yielded great benefits for you .
Like imagine if some middle schooler abandoned math or physics because they were too hard ,rediclous !
Learning can be uncomfortable but persistence is how you grow as person and avoiding hard problems all the time is one way to stop yourself from expanding your knowledge and limit your potential.
Rust isn't rocket science it's just a programming language as software engineer you failing to use a tool means you have work to do !
I love rust and I agree, but I also believe that you also start writing better code when a language forces you to understand when most of the things fails, know how and when to handle them, re-structure your idea to make it right and give a better product is a thing that I love from rust
I feel like people think Rust is harder than it is. I learned Rust having exclusively written Python prior. The compiler held my hand and it was easy to pick up in order to write some file management scripts on an HPC cluster. I, someone with no experience in compiled languages at the time, found it pretty straightforward. Fast forward a bit, and I had to pick up C for work to write firmware; C didn't hold my hand nearly as much, but my experience with Rust made it a lot more straightforward. All programming languages can get messy, but I feel like Rust has a rep for being more difficult than it really is in practice. Of course, maybe I just got lucky.
I haven't had the chance to check out Go yet, but I've been looking into it more lately; what's your favorite/least favorite part of it?
Clearly this opinion does not come from someone that has gone through the 0 - 100 in Rust, but really believes to be gone through the 0 - 100 with go
I have not programmed in Rust, you are correct
The same thing happened to me when learning the JS frameworks React and Vue! Vue was easy to learn and be good at, and React be more difficult to improve after learning the basics! BUT, the amount of information I learned and the knowledge I gained learning React was so much more and I felt like I am always challenged to become a better developer. Plus it was so much closer to vanilla JS too
same as me. I ran from react to vue coz react was harder to pick up. But after i eventually learned react the proper way and got comfortable with it, vue became sh*t to me.
Python: 5 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master 💀
in 1 day you can master it
They operate in different spheres, imo rust should strictly be for low level programming and go for everything backend services.
Rust is my favorite language for backend. The explicit error handling means you'll never get a cryptic 500 error. And it's fast, so you don't have to scale your service as much. AWS gives you a discount for using it.
@@michawhite7613 it's just complicated to get started with rust, a lot of ideas you need to get familiar with. As well as getti g familiar with the compiler in Rust. If you know general backend concepts then you can get a very well made backend system up and running very quickly in Go
Use Golang for the backend and infrastructure. Use Rust for CLI, game engine, or Low-level stuff
Rust is my favorite language for backend web programming. The explicit error handling means you will almost never get a vague 500 error. The borrow checking makes race conditions less common. And I don't have to spend time or money to improve performance, since it's already 50 times faster than Python.
@@michawhite7613 what kind of backend do you build in rust lol, i never see it being used in any job offer
Nah, I'll use Rust for both and if I need some really insane concurrency capability I'll go with Elixir.
I quite recently started exploring Go and I really like it for it's simplicity. I think this is a real quality, especially because it is still strongly typed and compiled (this is good).
However, for me hardly any language can compete with Rust. Also learning Rust added more value to me as new experience, since I professionally already develop in C# already, which is also a GC language and is a still much richer language than Go, even though Go does a certain things actually better.
I love golang, it just makes me more productive than when I write js/ts.
I think you need a different approach to compare it. As a web-dev , solving web-dev-problems , both languages are pretty cool and you learn fast what you will need to know in both languages.
What exactly is 100 or 60 when it comes to programming?
Isn't this a wrong question? People should first decide what's the thing they want to do. Design microcontrollers, hardware, write drivers for networking devices, work on a kernel, video games, do data analytics, write or design web sites or applications (business applications, trading banking etc) video games. Then start worrying about the tools. I personally don't think Rust is the best choice for someone who enjoys or wants do to web frontend or even full stack development. For a backend developer, maybe, depending on what kind of a backend for what kind of market, infra etc.
Well the assumption here is that the purpose for choosing either one of them is the same. Most likely web.
Not everybody who "wants to learn coding" already knows if they want to write kernel drivers or CLI applications that help fellow developers because they... Might not know yet what a kernel and CLI applications are.
That's why, for Real beginners this "that depends on what you want to do with it" is pretty pointless..
@@maxfrischdev ok, so I just informed them about the fact that different tools are usually better suited for different jobs, and that there's a variety of very different programming jobs.
@@maxfrischdev if you’re just learning to program altogether, most would agree rust isn’t the best first language for that purpose. But even that is a purpose where some tools fit better than others.
It's true that some languages are better at some kinds of work. But Go is not better for any of those kinds of work.
Step 1 - learn Go. Step 2 - learn Rust. It's literally how I went about learning programming and it's been very rewarding, can't recommend it enough!
Go strikes the perfect balance between teaching how programming works and being simple and easy to use. Rust relies on those programming concepts mentioned above and gives you the tools to make fsat, safe and error-prone pgrograms more easily. Also both languages are loved by the community. It's a match made in heaven.
This is the best comment!
Why choose if you can have both
At what point is 60?
I took rust as my second language from python and the learning curve was so steep. I didn't have formal CS education so learning about type safety, memory was so difficult. But now i really enjoy coding in rust, i am still not good with the pointers but it's so fast already
Agreed 100%
I think primeagen made the exact same analogy
LOL Really? is there a vid? maybe i unconsciously got it from him
It was obviously a video, but I watch a ton of his stuff so can't specify. It's a good analogy.
@@johnjlanejr Yeah - I think its a very accurate one
I try currently to learn go.
Might sound silly but Go is absolutely hideous imo and thats why I dont learn it.
What's wrong wth it?
Learn both 🗿
This is the way
Let's do GO then. Thanks
I use Rust at work and I disagree
Why no one talk about Carbon the Google C++ killer?
I learned rust as my first language and Im confused on where the difficulty came from? Return types? Traits? Dispatch? Lifetimes?
Borrowing and ownership
It tends to be different things for different people, from what I've seen. Generally people struggle with ownership and borrowing when starting out, but some people also struggle with strict typing if they're coming from a flexibly, perhaps even dynamically typed language like JS or Python. Other people also struggle with memory and having to think about stack vs heap allocations if they're coming from a language that tries to hide that from you, again like JS or Python.
@@cccc2740 Why is that hard, especially if you’re a C++ programmer?
Aye bro lemme borrow that string! &str &’str &mut &more 😂
Avoid unmanaged languages.
It’s just called Go.
I go with Rust.
I prefer rust.
hello, blogger
Sure but going from 100 to 1000 is much easier in Rust than Golang.
yeah true true
And if we go from 1000 to 2000?
@@lucascamelo3079 moch speed
Skill issue.
I feel like going 0-100 is easier in Rust, but going from 100-200 is tremendously difficult. Rust has a TOOON of stuff you don't need that people claim as idiomatic that other languages just skirt around.
Maybe i should try Rust
One of my philosophy: don't waste time on a language that its creator has not worked for it anymore.
If you're referring to Graydon Hoare, his idea for the language was much different from the community's. He wanted to make an Elixir clone, but the rest of the community decided to try replacing C++, which I think was the right decision.
@@michawhite7613Now it makes sense. Both are indeed similar when it comes to safe concurrency capabilities. Sometimes I find myself trying to chose between both for my personal projects.
Go is underestimated as a language "for learning to become a better programmer". Go is full of great design ideas and decisions, and it's super interesting to study the language from this perspective.
There's a great blog post called Abstracting Away Correctness, about a lot of bad design decisions in the language and standard library.
@@michawhite7613 I love reading fasterthanlime but I don't like his view on Golang and I believe he tries to use Go as if it was some other language
😂😂😂😂 Too hard 😭😂😂
skill issue
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People don’t drop Rust because it’s “too hard” .. they ditch it when they get deeper into it and discover it’s “too wrong”, and it’s promises are mostly snake oil
Which promises do you suppose are snake oil?
Right, which is why so many big corpos are rewriting their memory critical systems in Rust, cuz of its snake oil promises. What a tool, screams so much "skill issue" with that comment.
@raptorate2872 fr.. even the white house is now might switch to rust
Neither.
then what??
Bro writing in assembly I guess @@MelkeyDev
Vlang, Nim, Zed, Elixir, Mojo?