संवाद # 134: Why India lost the 1962 war with China | Shiv Kunal Verma | Collab with
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 23 ก.ค. 2024
- #indiachina #indiavscanada #indiachinaborder
Shiv Kunal Verma was born into an army family and after his initial schooling at St Joseph’s Academy and a year at Fort Benning in the United States, he was sent to the Doon School. Having then graduated from Madras Christian College in Tambaram, his initial years were spent working with Tiger Tops Mountain Travel in Ladakh and Nepal.
Subsequently a journalist, a film maker and a writer, he has worked briefly with India Today, the Associated Press and with Sanctuary Films before he teamed up with his associate Dipti Bhalla and formed KaleidoIndia, under which banner some classic films like Salt of the Earth and the Standard Bearers were shot and produced. In 1999 he filmed the Kargil War and in the last decade and a half, has authored some exceptional books that include the Northeast Trilogy, 1962: The War That Wasn’t and 1965: A Western Sunrise. He is now working on the seminal Value Education Program for schools that aims at bringing India to Indians especially at the school and college levels.
His latest book 'Life of an Industani' is a whirlwind journey through critical events in India's 1980s and 90s, narrated in an honest, exhilarating and self-deprecating manner.
In this episode, we discuss the 1962 book. You can order your copy here: www.amazon.in/1962-Wasnt-Shiv...
0:00 Promo
2:45 2 Rajput
4:52 Thorat visits NEFA
6:33 Thimayya Vs Nehru
8:48 Nehru Vs Thorat
17:04 2 Rajput is called back
19:32 Bogey Sen: From brilliance to disaster
23:45 Coward CO & 1971 war
26:00 Ladakh's empty posts
27:17 Random officers got awards
29:18 Soldiers' awareness during battles
34:12 Was BM Kaul a villain?
38:10 BM Kaul Vs Bogey Sen & Thapar
41:56 Most soldiers died while withdrawing
43:18 When 10,000 soldiers fled Dirang
44:35 (Love?) Story of Subedar Dashrath Singh
51:25 Military brilliance of Lt General Thorat
59:18 Ill effect of bad military leadership
1:01:02 BM Kaul had no combat experience
1:02:49 What Chinese thought of BM Kaul
1:04:13 Two Big Flaws of Indian Army in 1962
1:07:45 Indian Army today - Kargil
1:10:15 Cost of BN Mallick's Incompetence
1:12:42 Why Nehru didn't use Air Force
1:23:28 Nehru's letters to Kennedy
1:25:21 Nehru was right on forward policy
1:28:45 Biggest issue: political interference
1:33:00 Hizbul Mujahideen & how enemy operates
1:35:15 McMohan Line is SCIENTIFIC
1:40:08 India's situation today Vs China
1:41:52 China's war crimes against India
1:44:20 Can India win against China?
One correction… Col Ismail was AAG in HQ 15 Corps, then in Udhampur and not in Western Command in Shimla as I have said in the conversation. He was a Lt Col, head of A Branch in the Corps HQ that was commanded by Lt Gen Bikram Singh. The whole of Ladakh was his area of responsibility. However, the call to him was from the Army Commander as stated.
Sir thank you for such a brilliant interview. Just one request for the next 65war and Kargil episode please narrate it as a story from start to finish. This 62 war episode was great but it was random stories of here and there. We are not familiar with the basic timeline. Hence request you for the next podcast, narrate the story from beginning to end like you are narrating to a child. not haphazardly.
Again thank you.
@@Dipika027Thanks, I wanted to say the same thing as you have mentioned. Kunal Sir is great no doubt about that but his narration does not gives us a complete picture of the scenario.
@@Dipika027 noted Dipika. Was more of a discussion on the book, rather than a summary of it. 1965 honestly is even more of a jigsaw puzzle… will discuss it with Arihant. Some others have also made the same point. At the end of the day, to get a fix on the conflict, one has to read the book though.
Thank you so much sir for the insights sir.
First of all I envy you. I want to take birth in powerful families.
But I'm going to get your book today.
@@182kunalRespected Shiv Kunal sir, my complements for your new book on 1962 war. If you recollect I had shared with you my grandfather Colonel Baljit Singh's war time diary of 1965 war, in which details about battle of Maharajke and other events of Sialkot sector have been mentioned date wise. I hope you must have enjoyed reading it. Just to share with you Brigadier Hoshiar Singh's death at Bomdila is the event that motivated my grandfather to join army for seeking revenge .
I am a survivor of 20 Oct 1962. I was at Dhola post.
जय हिंद महोदय 💐🙏🙏
Jay hind sir🇮🇳
Salute For your service Jai Bhartiya Sena 🇮🇳🚩❤️
Jai hind sir
Thank you for your service
My grandpa fought this war , he was in 4th garhwal , he was hit in tawang region & taken pow , after 18 days Chinese returned him along with 6 other pow's .
I remember , When I asked him what was the biggest reason of the loss ?
He replied in a very low pitch (he didn't want to defame his regiment) : "officers nikkamae nikle" .
He meant , they ran away .
He summed it up correctly. Salute to your grandfather for his service.
Qà
@@Vaadaaaaaaaa AA AA ki l
And seeing today's officers ist different now officer lead from front
@@VaadA salute to such a veteran
Post 1947,for years it was blasphemous to talk about anything negative to Nehru and the Nehru dynasty ...appreciate you for telling the many truths which were not told to Indians about 1962 indo china face off(mostly one sided debacle/disaster for India )It was biggest political failure than a military failure what is being presented by many who wanted to give clean chit to political leadership of those days and successive govts after Nehru,(mostly controlled by Dynasty)...thank you for being so objective in your description,will certainly go for book at earliest
My Nana ji also fought this war in NEFA sector, he was in 2nd Rajput regiment, posted somewhere near Bumla pass and Namka chu river in present day tawang district.
He was taken POW by Chinese, he was left only with a knife which was hidden somewhere in his clothes and sweater, later when he got a chance he cut the Chinese PoW camp tent with the help of his concealed knife and he ran away from the Chinese PoW camp.
Later after walking continuously for few days in bitter freezing cold condition he was saved by some local villagers of present day west kameng district of Arunachal Pradesh, who gave him some food and warm cloth and informed the local Indian Army unit about his presence.
Later when he came home after few months, he was very upset about the miserable condition of his unit during the war. He was very sad that India lost that war very badly, that time he said that many of his comrades who got martyred in war used to come in his dreams. He was suffering from post traumatic stress disorder for months after the war.
❤ उनके साहस और समर्पण को शत शत नमन है। ईश्वर उनके साथ सदा कृपा रखें। 🙏🏼🧡🙏🏼
I am Chinese and I hope for good neighborliness and friendship between China and India.
Area 4.8 lacks square k.m.,which surrendered by cia/ mi--5 agent nehru ghazi, b'couse politicians number 20 app. Paid & prepared under British government policy to break india, they started on this task from 1914 onwards, to change all document evidence, which showed the dynest of gyasuddin ghazi family, jinnah/ ghandi converted into Islam and worked for there agenda, i.b. also helped them some paid media & historians, succeed at Last..
@@mingmuyiyang8615 With the people of China, why not?
With the people presently ruling China, well, that's a different matter.
Let us wish each good fortune and good health, and leave the rest to time.
@@indrajitgupta3280 I hope China and India have good neighborliness and friendship. Because if there is another Sino Indian conflict, the Chinese people will no longer be soft hearted.
This is what deep research and solid knowledge find expression. Like his book, this podcast stands out for its quality. It is a combo of knowledge and art of story telling. Kudos
Gen. Thorat was close relative from my mother's side. Heard lot about him and had only 1 line about him on Korea war in my history school text book. Gaurav Sawant did a program on operation lal Quilla few years back then only i came to know about his contribution.
He was a truly great man. I saw his interview as a child in the 70s. Extremely intelligent and thoughtful man. A great Maratha. Salute to him.
As for as i am concerned...shri kunal verma did and achieved because he choose journalism kind of...i am grateful for him...i found him very late....after some of his interviews i saw...in my opinion he is walking encyclopaedia in military history.... thankyou kunal sir...for your wisdom and service.
Gen Thorat was a genius . Too bad he was overlooked by the leadership then😢
Thank you so much Kunal sir...
It changed my opinion on 1962 war ...
Entire youth is listening you you must do more podcast on 1962
Because 1962 pinches our hearts ...
And thanks to Samvaad podcast ....you are picking very relevant topics....
It's pinch but it was an rather than opportunity to learn and and get stronger and now we are strong to take back Tibet
I am Chinese and I hope for good neighborliness and friendship between China and India.
@@dkbros1592I hope Indians read carefully and experience with their hearts. The huge difference in the founding of China and India determines the biggest difference between India and China. Just look at the modern history of both countries and you will understand. India was colonized by Britain for more than 200 years. In 1947, Britain experienced World War II, with its strength greatly reduced and its position replaced by the United States. India took the opportunity to achieve independence through a "non violent and non cooperative" approach. In other words, India's independence has not experienced the test of blood and fire, so an independent country lacks cohesion and willpower, as well as a sense of national identity. Now let's talk about China. Since the British defeated the corrupt and incompetent Qing government in 1840, the Chinese people have been living in a state of deep suffering. Various disasters and wars followed one after another. At that time, China was very poor and backward, suffering various humiliations. Including the cession of Hong Kong and Macau, Taiwan becoming a Japanese colony, the Eight Nation Alliance burning the Old Summer Palace, and the subsequent comprehensive and brutal invasion of China by Japan. In 1931, Japan launched a full-scale invasion of China. From 1931 to 1945, the war lasted for 14 years. The Chinese military and civilians rose up to resist, fought in bloody battles for fourteen years, and suffered 30 million casualties, ultimately achieving victory. Do you know why there are so many casualties in China? There are hundreds of reasons, and I will only give an example to illustrate one of them: Chinese troops are in conflict with the Japanese army. Often, if the number of Chinese soldiers participating in the war is 100, they only have 20 to 30 firearms. The remaining soldiers did not give up resistance or surrender. They bravely fought against the Japanese machine guns and cannons with machetes, steel forks, and wooden sticks until they sacrificed. This spirit of returning to death and never retreating is the Chinese spirit. 30 million casualties! Do you think this can happen in India? For India, it is zero casualties because India's knees are soft. India will soon give up resistance. Do you know why there was the "Nanjing Massacre"? Because of the desperate resistance of the Chinese military and civilians, they will never surrender or give up. After Japan broke through Nanjing, it was first to vent its anger and secondly to scare off other Chinese soldiers and civilians who were resisting. However, the "Nanjing Massacre" not only did not deter any Chinese people, but also further stirred up the resistance of the Chinese people. The establishment of New China has gone through the test of blood and fire. Do you know why the Chinese national flag is red? That's because the establishment of New China was bought with the blood of countless Chinese ancestors, and we Chinese people will always remember it. From 1945 to 1949, during the Chinese Civil War, the Kuomintang fled to Taiwan. Originally, the Chinese people thought they could live a peaceful life they had long longed for, but in 1950, the Korean War broke out, lasting three years. The Chinese Volunteer Army successfully resisted the US northward route without air or sea control, outdated military equipment, and extremely poor logistics, at the cost of losing hundreds of thousands of brave PLA soldiers. As for the 1962 Sino Indian War, which India never forgets and feels extremely humiliated, in the eyes of us Chinese, it was not a war at all. Firstly, it only took 32 days. Secondly, from 1959 to 1961, China experienced the most difficult three years after its founding, during which many people starved to death. In 1962, India's economy far surpassed that of China. The United States, Soviet Union, and Britain both support India. At that time, India implemented a "forward policy" and used elite troops to attack China. We Chinese people really don't want to go to war. The Chinese troops who joined the war with India in 1962 were ordinary border defense forces, not regular People's Liberation Army. In China, military personnel are known as the "cutest people". There is a Chinese proverb: without a country, there is no home, and military personnel are the backbone of the country. Thank you to our brave soldiers of the People's Liberation Army who are always ready to defend the border of our motherland. No matter how India develops its military, it cannot surpass China. Whether in the past, present, or future, China can always defeat India. This is determined by the history and culture of both countries. Chinese people value the spirit of dedication and sacrifice. Do not surrender, do not yield, resist to the death, and face death as if returning on the battlefield. If Chinese soldiers surrender on the battlefield, it is a great shame, and the spirit of dying rather than yielding is deeply engraved in the bones of every Chinese person. These are all things that Indians do not possess. So, even now or in the future, India will never be able to defeat China. Now, do you think India can stand tall in the world like China? Absolutely impossible.
@@dkbros1592The Indian army is the worst of all Chinese opponents. China's War of Resistance Against Japan lasted for 14 years, China's Civil War lasted for 4 years, the Korean War lasted for 3 years, China's self-defense and counterattack against Vietnam lasted for 2 months, and China's border war against Vietnam lasted for 10 years. India's understanding of 'war' is too narrow. We Chinese believe that India has never experienced a real war. In 1962, in the eyes of the Chinese people, it was not a war, it was just an armed conflict between China and India. In 1962, a brief, just 32 day armed conflict continued India's nightmare for decades. What makes Chinese people feel funny is that a border conflict has transformed India into a "New Delhi Capital Defense War".
@@dkbros1592Xizang is an inalienable part of China's territory. Since the Yuan Dynasty, the central government has always exercised effective jurisdiction over Xizang. The Tibetan people are an important member of the Chinese national family. Xizang was called "Tubo" in the Tang and Song Dynasties, "Uszang" in the Yuan and Ming Dynasties, and "Tanggute" and "Tubot" in the Qing Dynasty. It has been called "Xizang" since the reign of Kangxi in the Qing Dynasty. On May 23, 1951, Xizang was peacefully liberated. After the Xizang rebellion was pacified in 1959, the central government began to exercise full and direct jurisdiction over Xizang. On September 9, 1965, the Xizang Autonomous Region was officially established. On December 23, 2019, absolute poverty was basically eliminated in Xizang, and the whole region was lifted out of poverty.
I have read Brig JP Dalvi's 'Himalyan Blunder' the first book by a soldier who fought the war and was taken POW. His account is the most authentic about Sino- Indian war.
True. John Dalvi's book, I think, will always be a classic.
Major General D.K. Palit's book _War in High Himalaya: Indian Army in Crisis_ also makes for good reading.
Yessss, love Shiv Kunal Verma - please bring him on whenever you can.
Also, the "coward CO" of 9 Punjab who was later caught trying to smuggle gold in '71 was RN Misra.
Have you seen the movie 3 kings....similar story of 1st Iraq War
Coward R N Misra.
corrupt up bihar
Thank you Verma ji for recognising that our constitution's "We The PEOPLE"!! HAS awakened, Yes we are awake and we will give our Justice in 2024.. we will maintain a deafening silence before the voting.. our verdict will be so surgical that every INDIA hating heart will stop beating.. Trust us!!
Ya but get ready for 2028 to 2037 where we have to fought in multipal front
"...खून जो बहेगा, आप ही का बहेगा। वो लाल रंग का होता है हमेशा।"
The best takeaway fron this entire conversation.
Shiv Kunal Verma Sir, Hat's off to you......and thank you Arihant bhai for introducing this gem to us.🎉🎉🎉
I m born Kolhapuri.I m v proud of Lft General SPP THORAT .I am residing nearby his residence
The author of "BOMDILA' novel (on d actual war in this region I.e. Tawang to Tejjpur) is also from kolhapur.
Another excellent discussion. Plz invite Uday Kulkarni on your podcast for discussion on Third Battle of Panipat & Maratha Empire
Fan of shiv Kunal ji... Swasthya rahe mast rahe 🎉🎉
Only one observation...Bogey Sen wrote Slender Was The Thread and it makes a very good reading. However, as it was discovered later, it had quite a bit of fictional content. Gen Harbaksh Singh and Maj Brahma's books countered his claim in detail. The fact remains that if you are incompetent, you remain incompetent though you may get exposed at a certain stage only.
I have read that book 2 decades back....i am not a military guy but even i could understand even at that point of time i knew it gives a very distorted picture of what happened
Lost my maternal uncle, aged 26 in 1962. Last letter from him is dated 14Nov to his father, my grand father. 2/8 Gurkha's. Died due to cold and starvation. The trauma on my mother is still unforgettable.
My Dad's senior in the Canberra is Gp Capt Jaggi Nath, MVC Bar, flew his Canberra over Aksai Chin, entering India thru Himachal, the Kalapani river not the Eastern sector. There was no opposition.
Bodo Mama and Dad were NDA course mates, 11th course
Factually incorrect. The Canberra use to fly at about 40k feet, and Missiles and Fighters did not reach those altitudes till say mid 1960's. Therefore being shot over Aksai Chin was remote, thought some probability, was done in 1959-60
Jaggi Nath sir released the 1962 book in Bombay in 2016. We also went over the details of all his sorties and were in regular touch till he passed away last year.
Most Ladakh sorties the exit route was, as you rightly say, via Himachal. However, he flew to Kibithu where the Lohit enters India on a couple of occasions. In 1965 they would hold around 11k feet, then dive down over target areas to shoot what they could see. On one occasion while exiting Pakistan near Amritsar, on board rear radar warned of aircraft closing in from behind.
Sorry my bad. It was Uttarkhand, not Himachal. The Kalapani river is in Uttarkhand. Dad did mention that in 1958-59, he flew some 2-3 Hunter pilots up the Kalapani for a familiarization exercise in a Dakota. Before he converted to the Canberra. He was Nav Leader for No 16 Sqd in 1971, flew all missions with Wg Cdr Gautam, the other MVC BAR in the IAF. He personally received a VrC for their first Raid on 4th Dec to Miawali.@@182kunal
Yes, am aware of your dad. I too meant Kumaon instead of Himachal. Have you seen my two films made for the IAF? Salt of the Earth in 1992 and then Aakash Yodha a decade later… I was fortunate enough to get to fly in a Canberra, lying on my stomach in the navigator’s position. Your father and his ilk had nerves of steel… my salute!
@@182kunal Not the film, but 1962 book yes. Will watch. Thank u
@@182kunal The Aircraft was the Liberator, Dad was Liberator out of Pune, not Dakota. The Hunter Pilots were from Ambala. Corrections from Dad
Can I request you to get the officers of IPKF on to your podcast as well as the IAS officers involved in double deals with LTTE. It will be very intresting to know the dark side of dirty politics. Also u can analyse the SAMBA SPY CASE
Lesson no 1 of military strategy. No war is ever won by being defensive. Here India was defending numerous military posts! China attacked and destroy the post.
Very informative and interesting story about the war and situation during 1962.we can only take lessons from the history.equally happy to note the change in attitude of our people during kargil.hats of to the brave soldiers.
Mr. Verma... FYI... 6 Kumaun was led by Lt. Col. CN. Madiah... Whose battalion was the only one to attack the Chinese in the walong sector. He ended the war a POW for 9 odd months. The feature he was ordered to attack was yellow pimple... And is now named in his honor. He passed away in 1991
Yes indeed. 2 Rajput handed over the defences to 6 Kumaon and had moved out in September 1962. My father had moved from Walong to IMA in Dehradun just before that. I have covered the Walong Sector in some detail in the book… do forgive me if I have got a few names awry… I wrote the book eight years ago and the brain does start recall issues. I had gotten in touch with Col Madiah’s daughter who if I remember correctly was married to an Air Force officer.
Correction - he was POW for around 6 Months. He was taken POW on Nov 17, 1962 (from Yapak) and returned in end April 1963. I am not sure what feature at yellow pimple is named after him. He was a great leader but unfortunately, he never returned to the Palta after his release.
Request for Arihant..
for the next 65war and Kargil episode please narrate it as a story from start to finish. This 62 war episode was great but it was random stories of here and there. We are not familiar with the basic timeline. Hence request you for the next podcast, narrate the story from beginning to end like you are narrating to a child. not haphazardly.
Again thank you.
सर ये जो राहुल गांधी विदेशी महिला
और कांग्रेसी नेता चीनी के साथ क्या
MOU साइन किया जो अब दिख रहा
है इस पर भी विष्लेषण किजिए
Don't politicize the sacrifices of these great soldiers.why don't u talk about the Pulwama attack you stupid filthy brain filled with politics only and no regard for the martrys.tell me here how many of your family members laid their life In wars of india
The Podcast with Shiv Kunal Verma is interesting. The Indian debacle at 1962 China war has always been a raw wound for every Indian.
Prof. Dr. Awinash Biniwale has written a novel 'Bomdila' about this war. Though as a novel this is a work of fiction the story incorporated is based on real life experiences of the soldiers involved in the Chinese agression in NEFA November 1962, the villagers based in Tawang and nearby region. Shri Biniwale had interacted with these persons and based his novel on these narratives. The novel originally written in Hindi has been translated in Marathi and English by the author himself. The other translations in Indian languages are in Gujrathi, Kannada, Asamiya, Bodo, Sanskrit and Sindhi.
This novel has been well appreciated in military circles also. May I request the Podcaster to have an online discussion about the novel with the author, Prof. Dr. Awinash Biniwale.
New editions in Marathi, English and Hindi of Bomdila are coming out in next couple of months.
🙏 Many thanks to you
Agar dushman ghar ke ander hain to baharwala dushman ka kya jaroorat hain 😏
Very good interview. Top quality.
Nehru,Gandhi family was always against the capable Maharastrians e.q Gen.Thorat, Yashwantrao Chavan,Sharad Pawar & so many others. I am impressed with Kunal Sir, the way he has wrote the truth & things happened in actual. I salute him.
Pl don't put resp Gen Thorat sir in line with the politicians Yashwantrao Chavan & Sharad Pawar.
Man Chinese nurse was awasam and her dedication is of next level I don't think we have any like her !
What a fascinating conversation. Still reeling under the impact.
Great work sir, Today's youth is listening you
Appreciated it's new information,crazy absolutely we had sach great history,I m proud of
Jai Hind Jai Bharat 🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳❤️❤️❤️
Quality content.
Lots of insights.
Thank you to both.
Always wait to listen to Kunal - as usual he does not disappoint. He has spoken about the same few topics so many times, yet there are some new aspects every time he speaks.
Morarji Desai was responsible for that defeat. He refused to give much money to the Ministry of Defense. He was opposed to the imports of MIG aircrafts from the Soviet union, the contracts for which was signed in March 1962, but because of the oposition of Morarji Desai it could not come before the war was over. They arrived in India in November 1962. With these MIG aircraft. India could destroy China easily.
No, tt was the generals.
@@anirecapped. What the Generals could have done when Morarji Desai had not released the funds for the Ministry of Defense. Soldiers had inadequate dress, shoes and weapons. Air Force was not used. Navy was not used. There was a total chaos in the army with the Chief of Army General Kaul ran away from the front.
@@DipakBose-bq1vv Did you even listen to a word Kunal ji said??!!
Great discussion! Learned a lot. Would love to meet Mr Verma one day. My regards to him 🙏
Very informative podcast. Keep it up. Sharing in the groups
It could have been much better explained with some pre-made diagrams, sketches. Most listeners have no idea or familiarity about area.
Most will not remember names like NEFA, now called arunachal pradesh.
Regarding 1962 war, it simple incompetence at political level eho just disliked army or defence forces as a whole. Politicians just appointed yes men at senior level because all politicians of that time were scared if coup. So they appointed incompetent yes men who will dare not do any coup.
Unfortunately this poverty of thought continued for very long time ie mistrust of defence forces because political class sincerly believed that independence from british came with " Tali bazakar".
Great Conversation!!! Quality content
Mismanagement and horrible leadership lead to 1962 fiasco.
Mr. Verma's audio was perfect; it was Arihant's audio that seemed a little lacking. Nevertheless, a riveting episode.
Shiv Sir was involved in the Indian Project Tiger story as well. Please make a video about that.
Bhai great content but if we cant hear you properly then whats the point?kindly sort out the audio issue so we can clearly listen
Gist of the story is that like generals are not supposed to interfere in politics similarly politicians should also keep their nose out of the army.
Such a wonderful and enlightening podcast. But volume is too low.
1962 का भारत चीन युद्ध हम दो लोगों की वजह से हारे एक नालायक प्रधानमंत्री और एक नालायक रक्षा मंत्री की वजह से नाम सबको पता है
वर्मा जी, मैने आपकी किताब 1962 के इंडिया चीन युद्ध पर जो है, पढ़ी है। जितना पढ़ी उतना ही नेहरूको मुंह से गाली निकली
कन्फ्यूजन किंगडम- कश्मीर..
अक्सर देखा होगा, बड़े लोग रोजाना बड़ी बड़ी जमीनें खरीदते है, बेचते है, लीज लेते है, अदलाबदली करते है-विदाउट इमोशन।
छोटे लोग बीघा भर जमीन के कब्जे के लिए कत्ल, खून और पीढ़ियों का बैर मोल लेते हैं।
●●
तो इसका मतलब - बड़े लोगो की भावना जमीन से नही जुड़ी होती। वे नफे नुकसान आंककर फैसला करते है।
छोटे लोग भावनाओ से फैसला करते हैं- बाप दादों की जमीन, पुरखों की विरासत,
इस मिट्टी में खेला था, इसी में मिलूंगा...
आदि इत्यादि।
●●
तो इस पोस्ट को पढ़ते हुए, बड़ा या छोटा आदमी न बने। सिर्फ,आदमी बनें।
तो साहबान, कश्मीर नाम के कन्फ्यूजन किंगडम की सीमाएं कहाँ तक हैं, यह भगवान को भी नही पता।
केवल सरकारो को पता है। और वो आपको बताती हैं- नक़्शे छापकर।
तो चार नक़्शे दिए है।
●●
पहला- 1947 में ब्रिटिश इंडिया का मैप। कश्मीर जो अभी पिचका बैलून जैसा है, इस मैप में फूले बैलून सा लगता है।
लेकिन एक मिनट- एनलार्ज कीजिए।
अक्साई चिन जहां पड़ता है, वहां कुछ लिखा है। जूम कीजिए, डॉटेड लाइन के बगल लिखा दिखेगा- बाउंड्रीज अनडिसाइडेड।
तो हरिसिंह के कश्मीर की, चीन की तरफ सीमा, अंग्रेजो के अनुसार, 1947 तक अन डिसाइडेड थी।
जो हमे विरासत में मिली।
●●
दूसरा मैप- नेहरू का जारी किया गया है, 1954 में। ऑफिशयल भारत माता, जिसे देख देख आप बड़े हुए।
इसमे सारे बार्डर पक्के हैं।
सवाल यह, कि अगर 1947 में सीमा अन डिसाइडेड थी, तो 54 में पक्की कैसे हुई?? क्या 1947-54 के बीच कोई समझौता हुआ, जिससे बार्डर डिसाइड हुआ??
बिल्कुल नही।
तो नेहरू ने ऐसा मैप क्यो बनाया?? इस सवाल के जवाब पर नेहरू, या कॉंग्रेस, या सरकार चुप रहेंगे- नेशनल इंट्रेस्ट।
●●
इसलिए बनाया जनाब, कोई नेगोशिएशन पॉइंट तो तय करोगे। और जब फाइनल तय करोगे, तो कुछ देना ही पड़ेगा।
याने 150 क्लेम करो, 100 में सेटल हो जाओ। अगर 100 क्लेम करोगे तो 50 में सेटल होना पड़ेगा। जितना चाहिए, उससे बढ़कर क्लेम करना ही चतुराई है।
तो नेहरू ने बढ़चढ़कर सीमाएं दिखाई, और बिल्कुल सही किया। बढ़ाये नक्शे में वो इलाके, अक्साई चिन शामिल है जो कभी हरिसिंह का नही था।
हरिसिंह के पुरखों के गपोड़ नक्शे को, थोड़ा शेप देकर, नेहरू ने अपने क्लेम का रेफरेंस लिया।
जो कब्जे में था, जो नही था- सब शामिल कर लिया है। क्योकि नक्शे में ही नही लोगे, तो उसके लिए लड़ोगे कैसे??
●●
तीसरा नक्शा भी है। ये पाकिस्तान का सरकारी मैप है। वो भी तमाम कश्मीर को अपना दिखा रहा है। असल मे गिलगित बाल्टिस्तान उसके पास है, लेकिन कश्मीर वैली नही है, पर दिखा रहा है।
अक्साई चिन को वो चीन का स्वीकार करता है, तो वैसा दिखा रहा है।
उसका भी फंडा वही है। बढ़ा चढ़ाकर दिखाओ, ताकि कल को सेटल करना हो, तो उसे छोड़कर अहसान करेंगे, जो उनका कभी था ही नही।
●●
चौथा मैप चीन का है। वो अक्साई चिन को अपना बताता है।
उसे बाकी कश्मीर से मलतब नही है। मजे की बात, चीन का मैप स्थिर नही। वह अपना मैप "अपडेट" करता रहता है। 10-5 साल में हमारे किसी इलाके को जोड़कर, अपना। नया नक्शा पब्लिश कर देता है। हमारी रूह इतने में ही कांप जाती है।
ये नक्शे की ताकत है।
●●
नक्शा, एक स्टेटमेंट है।
नेट पर कई वर्ल्ड मैप मिलेंगे। उसे किस देश ने छापा? उस देश के आपके, चीन या पाकिस्तान से क्या इक्वेशन है? वो नक्शा उस अनुसार छापेगा।
सम्भव है कि आपका दोस्त देश, आपसे जुस्सा हो जाये, तो अपने यहां किसी मैगजीन में पाकिस्तान वाला कश्मीर मैप छाप दे।
तब आप एकदम मंकी टेल की तरह सीधे हो जाते हैं।
●●
मूरख लोग, या बदमाश, झूठे पोलिटिकली मोटिवेटेड धूर्त आपको बताते है कि सम्पूर्ण कश्मीर, जैसा नक्शे में आप बचपन से देखे हैं, वैसा ही हमे तश्तरी में परोसकर मिला था।
लेकिन दुष्ट नेहरू ने इसे केक की तरह काटकर चीन पाक में बांट दिया।
ये परम झूठ है। आप जानते है कि जो आज आपके पास है, वो भी नही मिला था। श्रीनगर तक पाकिस्तान घुस आया था।
जितना भी है, शहादतों के बूते लिया। इंच इंच लड़कर लिया। जो नही है, उसकी फाइट जिंदा रखी गयी है।
●●
याने कुछ काम आपके लिए भी छोड़ गए। नेहरू आपका कर्जा तो खाये नही, की पूरा विश्व जीतकर आपको वसीयत में लिख जायें।
अरे, कुछ तुम भी जीतो भाई।
बढ़ाओ कुछ!!
वो दम नही। हम निठल्ली औलादें, नेहरू को कोसते हुए बड़े हुए। अब बड़े हो गए हैं, तो सुनिये।
●●
बड़े लोगो की भावना जमीन से नही जुड़ी होती, वे नफे नुकसान आंककर फैसला करते है।
छोटे भावनाओ से फैसला करते हैं- बाप दादों की जमीन, पुरखों की विरासत, इस मिट्टी में खेला था, इसी में मिलूंगा, सर कटा दूंगा, काट लूंगा.. आदि इत्यादि।
तो इस पोस्ट को पढ़ते हुए, बड़ा या छोटा आदमी न बने। सिर्फ,आदमी बनें।
Nehru kalank tha
Devendra Singh Ji, unfortunately my I Pad is very old it does not have provision to write in Hindi hence I am constrained to write in English. Anyway my Ernest request to you would be to not to get enraged. On the other hand we are very fortunate that we have had leaders like Nehru, JP, Vinoba Bhave and many visionaries that we are today the largest and one amongst the most functioning democracies in the world. Please try to read history ( it is quite recent hence you could certainly lay hands on the truth).
Otherwise go to some library where you could find Newspapers since 1947. You would yourself understand what happened in the country and what is the contribution of all the Prime Ministers in the country since then ( Including Morarji Desai etc of Janta Party and Atal Ji and Modi Ji). Fortunately they have all done great job and contributed towards building a fair society.
I was thirteen years when China invaded India in 1962 and have seen the whole country rising on the call of Pt Nehru. Atal ji was a young parliamentarian and a great speaker. He used to be the lone voice ( or one more probably Balraj Madhok. China had huge army without weapons. When they invaded we had to rush our army to the border ( prior to this there was no regular army on the borders). We had a small army with some weapons but great passion to fight for the country.
China took huge numbers of our soldiers as POW. Chinese stopped only when US threatened and started sending their troops. ( can’t remember if there was any fleet etc etc.). India after independence had decided to not to invest on weapons but take care of the hunger. There was a huge shortage of grains hence the first task was to improve agriculture. In those days grain was imported and people used to stand in que for hours to get wheat ( it was known as “control ka gehun”. “Bail Gadi” was the most rather only mode of transport in villages. Bicycles were also imported from Britain ( most popular brand was Herculese). There were other difficult problems being faced by the country that had to be solved such as states reorganisation, issue of national language etc which were more critical to keep the country United.
We came out of this situation with our own efforts and passion for the nation.
My sincere suggestion to youngsters would be to study the conditions of the nation in early years after 1947.
Nehru Ji refused to bend before US or USSR and created our own policy popularly known as Non-Aligned Movement. India was a poor but proud nation. Proud of its history, secular traditions that forced Powerful Muslim rulers to seek their assistance in all wars. That is the reason how India remained about 70% Hindus despite the invasion of barbarians unlike all the countries north of India including Iran. Most of these countries took up to Islam as their faith ( almost 100%). India maintained its identity by following high principles of being “good even to the enemy”. India as a nation was United by Congress and maintained so by Congress. There were many leaders who came out of this movement who refused to take part in the politics of rulers such as Vinoba Bhave, Jai Prakash Narayan and many more. Their contribution is also great and can’t be ignored. Vinoba Bhave started Bhudan aandolan and convinced majority of large land holders ( Jamindaars) to donate their land for the poor.
My request to today’s youngsters is to read history in the right perspective and do not get moved by sloganeering. We would become a powerful nation only when we refuse to spread lies and respect our national leaders.
You can read Kuldeep Nair book to understand better about India from 1947 to Indira Gandhi and little more further.
Very informative and interesting story about the war and situation during 1962.
Todays BHARAT is different mental conditioning is over and in last stage
Bas economy and manufacturing is to be build for future war of civilization to come
Be prepaid
Because 1962 was learning point it was not an defeat but rather than opportunity to learn and we do learn
Now Only things are left to make economy and manufacturing strong
Chinese proxy war was never understood at 1962 onwards. Now allbharatiyas are realising this hard truth and now can tackle things better in this art of manipulations and machinations.
Speechless. Thanks for the enlightenment.
Sir, very interesting war stories of that time.
Excellent analysis of war history 🎉
Jis sena ne 1947 ke pehle dusare mahayuddh me diniya bhar me naam kamaya tha woh 15 saal me itni kharab kaise hui. Us samay China bhi aaj ka china nahi tha..
Due to incapable political leadership of Mr dreamy Nehru,who didn't resign even after 1962 shameful defeat till his death .
Shiv kunal verma jis knowledge of defense is extraordinary it would be helpfull if he makes a 2 hours commercial movie base. On any particular incident of warfare inorder to instigate nationalism among youth it will positively impact the youth to join the forces and serve the nation and recognize the difference between real heroes and reel life heroes and cricketers etc
This is great to rejuvenate nationalism among people
KK मेनन USSER के एजेंट भी थे ऐसा विद्वान बोलते है 🙏
Kk mennon ek actor ka name hai bhii?
@@raghavmaheshwari9577 VK k मेनन 😊🙏 Defence minister
@DeepakSoni_Rajputana ...he was a Chinese agent
He was not usser agent but suffering from mental illness though he had played great role in annexation of princely states in Indian union.
@@SaurabhSingh-zv1kf भाई वो VP मेनन थे जो की सरदार पटेल के भी SECRETARY थे 😊🙏 मै V.K. कृष्णन मेनन की बात कर रहा हूं जो की DEFENCE MINISTER थे 🙏
Very nice. I think one should also read "Himalayan Blunder" by Brigadier J. S. Dalvi
Dalvi was a coward.His book would probably whitewash his cowardice.
True, his book is white washed, that so called Brigadier was caught in his pajamas cooling beer in the river.
I am watching all of your podcast and I am noticing audio is very low even with full volume in my laptop.Arihantji pls look into this matter.
History must be learnt, it is not to be ignored
Thank you Shiv k Verma, listening to you after reading your book was enlightening.
Thanks!
Quite a poor followup to the first episode
You two might be familiar with the topic & its details and so Shiv can jump randomly from one incident to another, but for us lay people you need to mention timelines, explain the situation as they existed & who were the players+ roles assigned to them
This is a hot mess
Thanks for the feedback. It makes sense what you say. We will keep this mind when we discuss Kargil and 1965 war.
@@Vaadi would counter, i quite like this episode (maybe I like this type of conversation)
agree
Buy the book and read - this is just an appetizer
I agree. I love Arihant Shows. But this time it's all over the place. Not in sequence.
Love from Netherlands
What is not mentioned is the "lobbying culture."
In all govt service the criteria for getting a favorable posting is -- there should be someone to lobby for you.
Generals who were at the helm of affairs were occupying those positions as they had someone to lobby for them, but were professionally inefficient and knew nothing about mountain warfare.
In a way the 1962 defeat was a blessing in disguise.Govt realized that armed forces cannot be run in this manner, ( lobbying culture) but in a professional manner.
Post 1962 these 'lobbyist' Generals were eased out professionally efficient Generals were brought in.
They showed their mettle in 1971.
Request cc.
Have to rewind a few times to try and catch what was said. Thxs
I was about 14 years travelling in third class compartment of the train with a soldier who was held a PoW returning after release. In those days it was known that huge number of Indian soldiers were taken prisoner by the Chinese forces. We had relatively better arms but number of Chinese soldiers were higher. We were caught unprepared.
Very good analysis
Sir jai hind. I salute to you. Jai hind.
I think psychology plays more important role in war than actual equipment. When we are fighting against china we are terrified and when it is against Pakistan we are hyper confident
Lots of blunder had been done by that time of political leadership as well as top military officers.
Amazing podcast. But please don't say that IA didn't fight. Our bravehearts fought till the last man in Rezang La.
The author talks about "hierarchical integrity" being breached by political overlords, he should clarify his stand on the appointment of Gen Rawat as COAS by superceding 3 senior Lt Gens and later appointment of Gen Anil Chauhan by unnecessarily expanding the eligibility criteria, both of which were equally rare and unprecedented events
I am from Arunachal, Very very important information, all the name mentioned are perfectly correct, but sad, very hard to get to the points may be due to less mentioned of dates . . 😢
Jai Hind
Very good afternoon sir, Sir i have a very heartly request. Sir I have been to many channels requesting them to bring such type of informative videos on The Battle Of Sardar Post and Tak Post.. in which our CRPF retaliating a full brigade of Pakistan troops and won that battle...Please Sir Please bring these stories as many of us are not known to this event...It was never seen when a police company retaliating a full infantry brigade of Army. Sir no one is still able bring these stories and if they bring they bring a very short videos like our NCERT Books(explained very short on our history)...Sir please sir please bring a detailed video on this miraculous event. I want to know more because my father is still serving in one of the CAPFs as havildar. As I'm grown hearing such stories. So sir i want to know details of that war like event...I'm requesting this to you as i have seen your podcast...very amazing sir..Thank you sir 🙂🙂
Exactly 💯
Arihant wants to go over 1965 next. The fighting in the Rann of Kutch started with a Pakistani attack on Sardar Post. We will cover that… I had gone there and have a photograph of the memorial… will share that.
@@182kunal very much Thank you sir...I think I'm blessed to have your reaction Sir..Once again sir thank you very very much for your reaction and your time...Sir I'll be waiting very much for that podcast....😃😃
Brilliant.
Krishna Menon Road in Delhi should be changed to Maniksha Shah Road. Please don't delay.
इस (love)story पर फिल्म बननी चाहिए , चाहे वो कभी पूरी नहीं हुई।
Bhai WAQT Board k upar 1 podcast kidjiye please 😢
River Digaru has a bridge built over it now . As late as 2010 elephants were used and I remember during flood season in 1980s a few people died falling from elephant back trying to cross the river!!
Politics in Army And the political class was responsible for India Pakistan wars , India China War. Indian Army is the Greatest Army for All times .
I have read yr book on 1962 war. very elaborate and true picture.
सर ,आपने पूर्व मे बताया है कि जीन्ना एम आई सिक्स का एजेंट था।कांग्रेस की स्थापना भी एम आई सिक्स ने कराई थी।नेहरू भी तो जो कर रहे थे अंग्रेजों के एवं खासकर माउंट बेटन दंपति के सलाहानुसार कर रहे थे।
Vaad is great platform to know other side also
who is your guest? it is important to introduce your guest. Again excellent podcast
🤨
We Bengalis say, "Ramayan Pore Seeta Kar Baap."
I met the son of the principal of china's political school. He said Mao was irked at Nehru because he was not responding to his letters on the status of Tibbet. Although Chau was not in favor of attack but Mao just ordered it to teach Nehru a lesson. Stature of Mao was such that Chau en lai had to follow suit.
Shiv Kunal Verma sir, aap k book ka naam batayen
Nehru gifted Akshai chin to China and p0k to pakistan
And gifted Tibet to China as well - most incompetent of all Indian PM’s
This is what I want , exactly the content i want
Traitors must not occupy a nations highest seat of power as they will be तामसिक in nature and its results will also be तामसिक because they desire to work with only तामसिक people.
25:45 @Arihant - when discussing Gallantry Awards in the 1962 war - there appears to be a mistake here - the book refers to Lt Bikram Singh as a soldier deserving gallantry award and was overlooked - and probably not Lt. Gen Bikram Singh (they are two different people)
- Lt. Bikram Singh was 24 year old and his company (Delta Coy - 6 Kumaon) fought to their last in NEFA.
- Lt. Gen Bikram Singh was the core commander in Srinagar.
I wonder which one of the two was to be discussed on the subject of Gallantry Awards. May be Mr Shiv Kunal Verma can clarify in the comments - which one of the two Bikram Singh was overlooked for gallantry Award in the 1962 war.
JAI HIND
🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳🇮🇳
OM NAMAHA SHIVA🙏
सर की लिखी किताबोन के नाम बतायें और क्या वो हिंदी मे है?
🔥🔥🔥
Jai hind jai shree ram