Why? He wasn't ranting, he was asking for an open, logical discussion. He WANTED to be proved wrong, to start a discussion, and to learn more and hopefully help other people learn more in the process.
Well that's why you will have far less of an impact than she does, instead it will spread anger and maybe a backlash. It's just like with the screaming feminist or arrogant atheist, it doesn't matter if they actually have a valid point or not, it will just get lost in the shit storm that will ensue.
You don't see why it could be frustrating to explain to someone that not causing suffering is better than causing suffering? When that person is trying some major philosophical acrobatics in order to justify horrible practices?
suffering is completely subjective, so is classifying someone as a "bad person" he was trying to convey that vegans make arguments that are completely subjective. He could have worded it better, but he did a damn good job.
It's weird because most of his other videos on controversial subjects are pretty logical. It just shows how far people are willing to go to justify eating meat.
Well, why? I mean it's okay to disapprove, but it's important to explain yourself and keep an open discussion. Something you may take as obvious, you may not have a logical basis for, and you haven't realized because you always took it as fact. So I'd appreciate it if you shared your argument with me.
wait, you want me to explain to you why limiting suffering is ideal...? because it's a horrible experience, why on earth would you not want to prevent that? and why is it important to care about the environment? because we are not the only ones that call it home. other species depend on it to survive. we shouldn't destroy the home of other living beings because we're selfish
i think most vegans don't buy and own animals, they adopt them. they rescue these animals and take care of them and feed them and pay to save their health when they are ill. Adopting humans is something most people would consider morally acceptable.
I honestly never got the massive difference between rescuing and "buying" a pet. Isn't buying an animal simply bypassing that animals getting bought by someone else then abandoned then hopefully getting to a same place, from where they are rescued. (Profits to pet stores and puppy mills is a different matter) what are your thoughts? Ps I have a cat that is technically a rescue but I don't ever think of her as a rescue.
Erica Hodgson when i say rescue i just mean adoption and not buying a dog or cat from a pet store, puppy mill, or breeder. the way i see it there are so many animals in need of homes, and for a human being to just professionally breed more of these animals so people can buy them in their infancy or to get a specialty breed is so pointless and irresponsible. I don't like the idea of supporting these breeders, even if the animals they breed are treated well it's still so stupid that they'd make more animals that the earth isn't asking for. hopefully that made sense lol
What about working dogs? Specialty breeds like kelpies, beagles, sheepdogs and German shepherds cannot be easily replaced with any old mutt. Same with some cats. Same with some fish. Using a broad term like specialty breeds leads to inconsistencies in arguments.
Both good points. I just can't call my cat a rescue, it sounds so dramatic! I didn't rescue her from the nice people at the shelter, though I'll say I adopted her. But in life I say I got her at a shelter, not rescue or adopt.
That guy just proved the idea that intelligent people are the best at deluding themselves. You did a great job calmly and rationally rebutting him. I'm amazed at your eye-rolling restraint.
Are you intelligent? If so, does that mean that you also have a talent for deluding yourself? Or would you argue that lack of intelligence increases one's ability to construct sound reasoning? Or is this just your non-response when someone makes solid arguments against ideas that you have an emotional connection to? Ironically, it is the emotional connection that is almost always the precursor to self delusion.
#TeamPeople tho....but I don't care about the future generations of this planet. I don't know them fools. Fuck those guys. But still, #TeamPeople. Amirite?
anyone who is unable to understand the importance of the health of the environment is intellectually impaired. this guy is generally moronic, from one point to the next. he's wasting mic time.
Kayla Crane my fiancé too. He grew up in a hunting family, and when I told him about the ethical dilemma I was having, he said "I'd like to try this with you babe". I am fully vegan, and he is still working on it. Eats a lot less meat now ❤️ we have good men!
"Why would you want to save the galaxy?" - "Because I'm one of the idiots that LIVE HERE!" A great Star-Lord quote that explains why we should care about our planet.
I just want to say, when I was transitioning I was turned off by many radical vegans here on TH-cam... However it was videos like yours that educated me and persuaded me to continue my own research on Veganism. I've been an ethical vegan for 9 months now and can't imagine ever consuming animal products ever again, it's just out of the question. Your rational videos played a big part in my transition and I will always remember that. Thank you and please continue what you do!
+Stefan Magna I'm a born again Christian, so for me Christianity is my faith, and veganism, or at least a more environmentally conscious lifestyle are personal life style choices I'm trying very hard to work towards. :)
I've gone vegan a little while ago, and I must say I'm struggling. Not for the food, the food is awesome, but because when you tell people you're vegan, their opinions come out. And I feel so sad and hopeless finding out that nobody cares. About animals, about the planet...about saving the environment. It's a cross we have to bare
Rather than see it as a burden to bear, try to use those interactions as teaching moments. It's natural for people to react defensively when feeling indirectly challenged by an opposing belief. It brings up some latent guilt they may have about their lifestyle that they're not yet aware of, so it's important to use that opportunity to educate them & have them face their feelings in a rational and constructive way.
Thank you everyone! I don't have any close vegan friends so sometimes I feel lonely or I feel like I'm the one that's different and weird. I'm just at the beginning and I know it's going to be a long jurney :) I'll learn to interact better with people and maybe make them think!
+6OceanSoul9 i agree it can be lonely. I'm a recent vegan guy, and the only vegans I know irl are my gf (she converted me) and a couple who are good friends and helped convert me. it feels depressing how I have so many friends who are interested in social justice, feminism, animal rights, etc. ...but they all think veganism is too extreme. you're not alone in feeling alone, but that's what we have the Internet for!
***** well see heres the thing people say they are vegan and that they are some how better than non vegans. They always have the same answer that it is because some bull shit idea of its not doing harm to animals
His point here was not that he thinks reducing harm isn't ideal, but that even if we do, there isn't a logical basis for this ideal. I think we should reduce suffering of animals, but why? If it's more efficient and cheap for someone to cause suffering to an animal, what reason do they have to not do it? If it doesn't bother them, logically, they should continue to allow the animal to suffer and conduct business more efficiently. The animal's harm in no way negatively impacts the meat producer, but positively impacts the producer with more efficient production. It's important to keep an open discussion so I'd love if you could share your thoughts on this.
What your saying doesn't make sense. If we have the ideal that reducing harm is a priority, it doesn't matter in practice weather there is a logical basis for it. We clearly don't all share this ideal and we don't base all our values on logic. Why should we reduce the suffering of animals? because they are sentient beings capable of feeling pain. Non human life that can experience pain is worthy of ethical consideration. That's actually not that arbitrary. Valuing human life just cause humans are awesome is way more arbitrary. It just speaks to in species bias. But even then. What is a human being is far more complicated than what is a dog or a cat. Because we are defined not just by the contents of our bodies but by the contents of our minds and hearts which is why we in an allegorical way that extremely cruel people are not human. We don't actually mean that they are not biologically part of our species but that they are so immoral that they have no place in our societies and also that not being humane in their treatment of others they are likewise not deserving of humane treatment. There are a lot of extremely arbitrary ways we try to define the experience and meaning of being human. Intelligence is a hallmark of our species, but clearly intelligence alone is not what makes you worthy of ethical consideration or not. Otherwise it would be perfectly ethical to do any kind of normally unethical act on someone who's mentally retarded or far below the average intelligence, or children or babies. Why should human babies be given consideration if they do not have superior intelligence to adults of other species? Do we really make the argument that is only because of future potential? is there no inherent value of avoiding causing the suffering of babies for that individual babies experience in this point in time? Surely there is.
I just wanted to drop by and say that your rational, and level-headed approach to vegan activism has really inspired me to become a much more vocal vegan myself. It's heartening to have such a great example of effective activism here on TH-cam!
I watched Freelee, I watched many other vegan channels, I have vegan friends and I have watched things such as earthlings before. Out of my own moral standarts I have never gone vegan nor even considered it, but after just watching a few of your videos I just decided to atleast go vegetarian.
Veganism is about doing your best to reduce animal products, and that's what you're doing; just because you're not 100% vegan it doesn't mean your efforts don't count. You've got my support.
His point here was not that he thinks reducing harm isn't ideal, but that even if we do, there isn't a logical basis for this ideal. I think we should reduce suffering of animals, but why? If it's more efficient and cheap for someone to cause suffering to an animal, what reason do they have to not do it? If it doesn't bother them, logically, they should continue to allow the animal to suffer and conduct business more efficiently. The animal's harm in no way negatively impacts the meat producer, but positively impacts the producer with more efficient production. It's important to keep an open discussion so I'd love if you could share your thoughts on this.
ascvb3 Well I strongly believe he'd see things differently when he actually had to participate in or at least witness the suffering. It's always ease to be 'ok' with something as long as it happens far away and hidden from oneself but I am not convinced that this man simply lacks in empathy for animals. So to come back to the actual question, we should avoid the suffering of other beings since it's what humans deep down believe in. NOBODY watches another person or an animal in pain and misery and thinks it's a good thing, feels positively about it. If that would be the case for anyone, we would title this person a psychopath - mentally disordered. Unfortunately we humans are also selfish and strive for convenience whenever possible, so that's where your point about business efficiency fits in. Seriously...don't we all love to make up 'logical' excuses, so that we don't have to make any extra effort? I know I did. Whenever I didn't want to do my homework haha :') But anyway. There is not point in debating with someone who Is not ready to think outside the box but simply wants to continue following his old habits.
wow this dude really tought about these excuses. too bad they are just a better version of the good old "i can't do everything so i might just do nothing" kind
This is why I watch this channel. I respect the intelligent, logical, and reasonable approach. So many people just get their info from clickbait without bothering to research anything themselves.
Thank you for making this! The arguments he presented are so frequently used as justification among people who eat meat. I see it all the time. It's really nice to have a concise and well-executed response on the internet to present the reality of the situation.
I'd like this guy to draw a line at the point in the history of human evolution where Team People began. What was the defining evolutionary trait that separated Team People from Team Primate? It can't only be mental capacity, since I'm guessing he would want to define Team People broadly enough to include the mentally handicapped. If hostile aliens invaded Earth, would he support Team Raelian's desire to cage and feed on humans? His belief in moral relativism certainly wouldn't give him any basis to oppose it.
so many rounds of applause for this video! probably one of my favorite videos of yours thus far. thank you so much for making it and staying so level headed in the process.
Great response! I'm really surprised with some of his statements. "Why should we limit suffering?" "Why should we care about the environment?" "Why should I care about the future generation?" Really?? I get a child asking that, but a grown man? It seems so selfish, like he's really just trying to defend his lifestyle no matter what. Anyway, I really liked how you handled this. Also the mention of pedophiles who fight their urges was really nice. It's really not something I hear people mention, but it definitely deserves respect!
your videos keep me informed and motivated. i appreciate all of your effort and the information you back your oppinions on. sending lots of love your way. :)
Not a lot of people are objective enough to talk rationally about pedophilia, it is such an important conversation to have for the sake of children' safety. I am impressed that you had the courage to mention it in one of your videos an not demonizing people under this condition! A great video as always :)
Holy shit....His answer to "Do I need to care about furture generations?" is ridiculous. He's "Team People" but he doesn't care about people? I don't get the logic...Even if they are strangers in the future. People are people...
for me, the most convincing argument for veganism is simply the 10% rule. if we don't eat meat, we can support more people with a smaller environmental footprint allowing for more people to live good lives.
I am a vegan living in Florida. Our local ocean habitats are being destroyed by the invasive species the lionfish. One solution that is being tried is encouraging the consumption of lionfish (since we are so good at eating species to extinction, use it to our advantage?) I'd love to hear a debate on whether this kind of consumption would fit under the idea of tentative veganism you have expressed (i.e. roadkill, backyard hens, etc.).
Level headed, intelligent, and concise. That is what makes your videos enjoyable to watch. Your information is backed up by real studies, not just opinion or pseudoscience. thumbs up.
Brilliant video. You are rational as well as compassionate, consistent in your points and in general great on debates. Also thanks for mentioning The Virtuous Pedophiles and your approach to it, I find the topic very interesting.
I really adore that you don't use clickbait, how you're so intelligent. Could you do some videos on vegan recipes? Thanks, love you and you're epic channel
This is probably the best (or at least one of the best; i'm trying to think of others and failing) response video I have ever seen on youtube. You're so on point and just yes!!!
N. Fer. Ⓥ That’s largely because many of their points are so absolutely and blatantly wrong, ethically or factually. Such as his assertion that we shouldn’t care about suffering. Honestly, what the fuck? No, we should. If you have to explain that to someone...I don’t know what to say.
I don’t understand why people like the1janitor would say such things and come to such conclusions. Real vegan arguments put aside, his speech is full of internal contradictions. Are people like him really persuaded they are being intellectually honest?
Also, it is so much easier (depending on where you live, your health and your income) to go vegan than it is to check whether every single source of meat and animal product is 'humane'.
you are incredible, i struggled for so long to voice these things to others yet somehow you manage to do it so calmly, logically and elaborately, love it!
I really admire your views and the way in which you present your opinions and information in an unbiased and cool manner. You're an incredible educator. Thank you so much for sharing.
I'm so glad there's someone intelligent like you out there making these video's! And I'm so glad you're not tired of the discussion yet! And I can tell you, bit by bit you're winning! Keep it up!
the janitor's thinking seems lacking in logical follow-through and ethics, not to mention being plagued by a lack and misunderstanding of factual information. not very impressed with either his intellect or social conscience. while there may certainly be some very smart people who work as janitors for one reason or another, this person's employment options may be limited by his intelligence.
Wow... I didn't have nearly as much to say as you after watching his video. But of course you do! And I mean that in the best way. Usually I don't watch you because to be honest your content is often quite over my head, but that will change over time and I will eventually watch you more and more as I do more research❤️ Much love, you're such a sweetheart.
I have never heard of "the1janitor" before but I have to give him credit for being collected and having what seems to be somewhat unique points on the subject. Nice video UV!
I was waiting for this video! The1janitor's video, to his credit, at least attempts to have some academic honesty, but I found many logical loops within it. I though you were the only one who could point out all flaws in his reasoning in an orderly and convincing manner, and I was not disappointed. P.S. Do you have a Patreon? If not, you should set one up, cause I'd sure like you to have my money!
Thank you so much for using the pedophilia example. I actually got a little emotional hearing you say that you find the people on that website inspiring, that's not an opinion I hear very often. Verrrry slowly people's opinions on the topic are changing but for you to put it out into the world so matter of factly says a lot about what kind of person you are (a wonderful, wonderful one). Thank you so so much once again.
actually i think it is great, it is ugly and scary, it is touchy and we are not used to such things and we do not accept them, but it kind of makes sense, molesters have wishes and meat-eaters have that too, i have a strong wish to kill my neighbor cause he is an ass, but somehow i haven't and killing neigbors being illegal has a lot to do with that, by the way I am a meat eater and egoistic as fuck were me is more important than anyone else anywhere, but what she said makes sense to me in many ways
You've explained everything that was going through my mind while watching the1janitor's video so much better than I ever would. Your channel is thought provoking and very engaging. I feel like your ability to participate in a healthy and rational discussion is underappreciated, you deserve so many more views and subscribers! It was people like you who convinced me to become vegan and it's so refreshing to see a channel that doesn't promote false information or pseudoscience to attract people to veganism. Unlike them, the information you share builds a solid foundation for long term veganism. Excellent job!! Thank you so much!!!
The structure of my video was to separate it into segments with each segment responding specifically to the claim that precedes it. What I'm seeing people do is take each response out of their individual context in order to make them sound more absurd and easier to refute. E.G when I say "doing cartwheels is unnecessary" I'm responding specifically to the claim that "eating meat is unnecessary." Responding to that by saying "doing cartwheels harms no one" is taking my response out of context, I talk about harm in a different section of the video. You do mention that you will cover that later, but you still include this response as if it is not out of context and of course that makes my analogy look ridiculous. Similarly you immediately mention processed meats in response to me as if I specified them in my video, again you say later that you know not all meats are processed but you left the original statement in your video as if it is relevant. Maybe that was a joke? Your analysis of the health issue is misleading (you're completely wrong about cholesterol for example, your first link even confirms this, making it interesting that you shared it), but I don't disagree with the idea of balancing your saturated fat intake, so moving on. Basically everything you say up until the part where you respond to my views on animal's having rights hinges upon the premise that animals have rights and/or that suffering is bad, which I haven't granted. This is what I mean about taking my response out of context. Maybe it was not clear that this was the structure of my video. Also whether or not something is made illegal has very little to do with whether it is objectively wrong to do it. The rights people bestow upon animals are arbitrary. It would be very easy to argue that human overpopulation is a problem and leads to human suffering, but most people still think that humans have a right to life and a right to their genitals. The "what is beneficial" argument does not hold up. I did not argue that animals can't feel empathy. I said that animals do not have empathetic duty towards humans and humans do not hold animals responsible for behaving empathetically. For one the statement "there is no cure for psychopathy/mental disability" is an argument from incredulity. Just because we haven't seen something or can't imagine something doesn't mean it doesn't or can't exist. The potential to internalize empathy and have rational expectations of behavior applies to everything that's a human. At any rate, I think it's clear that we don't have the full amount of empathetic duty towards children and the severely mentally disabled. For example, is it immoral to lie to an infant? Our society has agreed to grant certain rights to infants and the disabled, which is arbitrary to some extent, but if you dogmatically believe that babies have rights it's easy for you to justify this. If you don't, you have to rely on an emotional appeal (which you did in your video actually), which does not qualify as an argument. This also ignores the fact that our duties towards individuals also extend towards our communities, and in most cases harming an individual causes harm to a community. When you bring up "laws" it sounds like you are conflating inalienable rights with "rights" granted to us by the state. These are not the same. For example, some people in the world do not have the right to own property. Whether or not a person "should" have the right to own property is a subjective conversation. So next I have to discuss my thoughts on moral behavior. I suppose I could have gone more into detail about this in the video, but I hoped that people would not make assumptions about my beliefs and would just take what I say in the video at face value. Humans have an empathetic contract with other humans. We inherently understand rational expectations of behavior in certain contexts. This contract is a necessary, logical result of the combination of empathy and the ability to reason. Humans do not have this contract with animals, because it is literally incoherent to be a part of a contract with an unwitting party. We do not require empathetic behavior from animals, so there's no basis for them to require it of us. Our decision to do so is completely based on our emotional response. "X causes harm, but not as much as Y." Is not an argument for something being objectively good or bad. It's an argument that supports your choice but it's hardly good enough to broadly condemn the world for not causing harm in the specific way you have chosen. But again, I haven't granted that causing less harm to animals is the end all be all criteria for all choices a person should make. The same goes for "efficiency of food production", just because something is "efficient" does not mean we are required to do it. And similar to an argument you made earlier, the bar none assumption that your way is hands down the best way and no other way could possibly be better is just unhelpful claim. When I say I am team people, I am to some extent expressing an opinion. But here's the thing about opinions, they can't be right or wrong. You'll note that at no point in my video did I condemn anyone or claim that people who did not share my view were morally wrong. My video was not an attack on veganism, I have no problem with veganism. My video exists to make the argument that there is no moral imperative for me to be a vegan. #teampeople is based in part on the fact that humans are in a class of their own when compared to all other species -- the fact that so many people call this distinction arbitrary seems very disingenuous to me. But even if you disagree with the opinion that humans are special and that their desires and needs trump those of animals, it's still an opinion. The combination of this opinion and the inherent empathetic contract humans have with each other precludes any argument about male vs female, black vs white. or your pedophile example. The rational expectations humans have for each other causes these ideas to be worthy of reproach and condemnation. It is not analogous to humans vs other species (because humans and animals do not have empathetic duty to each other). The comparison between a individual adult raping an individual child and someone doing something that, as a part of a large group of people, indirectly supports the propagation of an industry that indirectly results in the deaths of humans, is grossly untenable. It's somewhat insulting to be sure. This is a sensationalist emotional appeal, which wins the crowd, but doesn't make for a good argument. We all do things every day that in a roundabout way indirectly result in harm to humans, and we have to decide what we find to be the most appealing and important to us. And not one of us is in any position to make objective claims about the fact that we're more righteous because my way of harming humans is less bad than your way of indirectly harming humans.
"The comparison between a individual adult raping an individual child and someone doing something that, as a part of a large group of people, indirectly supports the propagation of an industry that indirectly results in the deaths of humans, is grossly untenable." - Why is it? Let's forget about how clickbaity this argument is and really look at it without a sense of insult. How is it untenable?
on a quick first reading what remained with me was your emphasis on contracts and community as a basis for according rights. I guess that is so in a strict legal sense but we're not necessarily lawyers, we are necessarily moral agents. I think the word "right" was borrowed from legal parlance because so much of our philosophical culture is based on the Roman civil law tradition, but it's just borrowing an analogy. I do not literally refrain from harming someone because of a social contract, I promote their well-being because I have rational conviction that they are like myself in relevant ways andd it would be irrational to treat them differently than I treat myself when I pursue happiness, or because I have a duty of mercy, or etc. My point is that what I can get from you has nothing to do with moral obligations to you. Law may or may not enforce ethical norms but ethical norms are not literally analagous to legal norms. The word "right" seems to me distinct legal and ethical meanings, and we shouldn't confuse the two
also, you seem to have a relativism thing going on: its "opinion" that non-humans suffer/are sentient. No, its as close to being an incontrovertable fact as anything can be, denying this is just denial, a psychological defence, rationalisation not rationality. Yes, the well being of non-humans and humans may well be different just as the conditions of well being vary between human individuals, that doesn't put us all in diferent categories, we all nonetheless have a wellbeing which must be defended and promoted
I realy liked this video, I'm not a vegan but I appreciate your arguments and I like hearing them. I was wondering, have you considered making a video about ChrisGoneRaw? He was a vegan for some years, with very science-heavy arguments and recently he's gone back to eating meat, also providing science-heavy arguments to back up his decission. I think it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on that. Thank you.
Food waste *is* an issue. It's exacerbated by feeding grain to animals being raised for food, but that's not the only issue; a lot of perfectly edible produce never even reaches grocery stores, because it's deemed too "ugly" to sell. Of course, this doesn't stop after the food hits the shelves; plenty of fruits and vegetables get thrown out by grocery stores once it starts to ripen/get a little spotty. And he is kind of right about how war and land expansion affects the food supply. So...you're both kind of right, and this is something I'd love to see more vegans address in a serious way.
ElectricMayhem87 (Ashleigh) True. I worked at shop and when it was time to trow cakes who reach there time, fruits and veggies who are to ugly and other food. It's like poor people could eat that stuff. And the thing is that animal products (milk, pasta, meat) who not gets buy and close to eat actually goes for poor families opposite then fruits and veggies.
I would be interested in that as well! and perhaps somewhat related issue that sterilisation/castration of pets/strays is necessary for population control.
The arguments he made are among the better ones I've heard from family members. I'm happy you made this video :) It is more useful to me than responses you've made your comments that can be responded to with "that's an appeal to ... "
This is one of your best videos! Your response videos are encouraging me to talk about veganism with non vegans in a calm and reasonable way. And to back it up with the studies you provide below your videos. Thank you for spreading the vegan message the way you do!
Unnatural Vegan is a BOSS when it comes to these types of point by point responses. Small point: Road kill is far better from an ethical perspective, however if you live in an area with natural predators you would be best to leave it there and let them scavenge it. People don't eat everything, vultures wolves lions and other predators and scavengers will.
She's pretty good. I noticed that small point as well, and another issue with it is that some animals need to mourn their dead friends/family members, they benefit from that closure, such as rabbits. My ex and I once saw a rabbit hanging around the dead body of another rabbit, right in the middle of the road. He/she wouldn't leave it, so we moved it off the road so that the living one wouldn't find the same fate.
Yea, I agree. The whole eating roadkill is better b/c of the "it prevents waste" excuse is pretty silly. When we use human corpses in the same hypothetical, we find that our concern for waste is irrelevant so it should have no basis for animals either.
Non-veg chiming in here, just gushing today about people who are able to debate ideas on the internet logically and respectfully, and always appreciate when someone links the sources of their claims. Exchange of ideas that avoids belittling each other or peddling abject propaganda makes everyone a little less ignorant. Kudos to you for being a part of it!
I'm really enjoying this channel! I'm not vegan/vegetarian (yet) myself, but I have been recently trying to research as much as possible about what foods I'm eating and how they are helping/hurting me (due to my chronic and debilitating Ulcerative Colitis). I watched some videos of Freelee & That Vegan Couple (both which I didn't enjoy and just gave me a lot of negative vibes), and then saw Fully Raw Kristina (which, while much mellower in tone, her diet would just not work with my condition and life), but it wasn't until I binge watched a ton of your videos that I started to gain actual interest and knowledge about transitioning to a more plant based diet. I really appreciate your tempered and pragmatic approach to this often overly emotional topic, as I personally don't respond to brash and unsupported soundbites as well as I respond to logical thinking. I don't know if I would ever fully go vegan (though I'll never say never!), as I don't necessarily have the same moral concerns about eating meat if the animal is raised and treated ethically, but even that should limit my animal product intake, as I'd like to stop eating any animal product that I don't know 100% where it came from (i.e. basically never eat animal products in a restaurant again). Sorry for the essay, but one more thing: if you haven't done so already, I'd love to see a video from you about processed foods within the vegan community. I know a lot of 'Gluten Free' and vegan packaged foods end up replacing gluten/animal ingredients with gums and other chemicals that are really not good for you - I'd love to hear how you avoid those things in "convenience" foods, and/or what to look out for that may be detrimental!
I'm not a vegan, and I'm never going to be.. But I love to learn and understand points of view .. You are the only vegan that I'm subscribed to and love to watch..
Thank you for mentioning people in developing countries! Also, they don’t eat meat everyday in my experience living in Rwanda, instead it’s more of a special occasion thing which I think is a better attitude honestly. Since being here I can’t imagine eating meat every day or even every week. Your videos have encouraged me to stop purchasing meat to eat at home and at restaurants and only eat it when visiting other people. I have also given up dairy altogether. These are my first steps! ☺️ thank you unnatural vegan for being encouraging, nonjudgmental and evidence focused!
Some of the things he says, or as he might see them, "arguments," sound straight borderline psychopathic and don't make any logical sense. This was such a thorough and level headed response that will hopefully educate him on the matter.
Regarding road kill, when I'm asked if I'd eat it, I respond that I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't eat my granddad's corpse. I'm having a hard time agreeing with your statement that eating road kill is moral. Would you say eating human corpses is moral?
Objectively speaking, nothing really. Is like making the question "would you save five stranger from a fire or your own mother?" The fact that you know the person take another completely different turn that when is just a dead creature with wich you didn´t had any connection prior death.
There's a difference between something being ick and something being ethically wrong. Eating a human corpse isn't inherently unethical. It's just disgusting. Murder is of course unethical. But if we are talking about a person that died of natural causes especially in a survival situation, no it's not wrong.
An astounding level of patience was on display here.
My exact thought. Throughout the whole video I could not help but asking: How does she stay so calm and rational? I'd immediatelly loose it.
Why? He wasn't ranting, he was asking for an open, logical discussion. He WANTED to be proved wrong, to start a discussion, and to learn more and hopefully help other people learn more in the process.
Well that's why you will have far less of an impact than she does, instead it will spread anger and maybe a backlash.
It's just like with the screaming feminist or arrogant atheist, it doesn't matter if they actually have a valid point or not, it will just get lost in the shit storm that will ensue.
You don't see why it could be frustrating to explain to someone that not causing suffering is better than causing suffering? When that person is trying some major philosophical acrobatics in order to justify horrible practices?
suffering is completely subjective, so is classifying someone as a "bad person" he was trying to convey that vegans make arguments that are completely subjective. He could have worded it better, but he did a damn good job.
I am so grateful for your channel, you always address these issues with grace, patience and studied information and fact.
"why is limiting suffering ideal?" "why should we care about the environment?" i can't with this guy
It's weird because most of his other videos on controversial subjects are pretty logical. It just shows how far people are willing to go to justify eating meat.
Well, why? I mean it's okay to disapprove, but it's important to explain yourself and keep an open discussion. Something you may take as obvious, you may not have a logical basis for, and you haven't realized because you always took it as fact. So I'd appreciate it if you shared your argument with me.
wait, you want me to explain to you why limiting suffering is ideal...? because it's a horrible experience, why on earth would you not want to prevent that? and why is it important to care about the environment? because we are not the only ones that call it home. other species depend on it to survive. we shouldn't destroy the home of other living beings because we're selfish
You----------->need to stop
He's really intelligent and woke otherwise... So many guys have some a weird stubborn complex of defensiveness about meat
i think most vegans don't buy and own animals, they adopt them. they rescue these animals and take care of them and feed them and pay to save their health when they are ill. Adopting humans is something most people would consider morally acceptable.
I honestly never got the massive difference between rescuing and "buying" a pet. Isn't buying an animal simply bypassing that animals getting bought by someone else then abandoned then hopefully getting to a same place, from where they are rescued. (Profits to pet stores and puppy mills is a different matter) what are your thoughts? Ps I have a cat that is technically a rescue but I don't ever think of her as a rescue.
Erica Hodgson when i say rescue i just mean adoption and not buying a dog or cat from a pet store, puppy mill, or breeder. the way i see it there are so many animals in need of homes, and for a human being to just professionally breed more of these animals so people can buy them in their infancy or to get a specialty breed is so pointless and irresponsible. I don't like the idea of supporting these breeders, even if the animals they breed are treated well it's still so stupid that they'd make more animals that the earth isn't asking for. hopefully that made sense lol
What about working dogs? Specialty breeds like kelpies, beagles, sheepdogs and German shepherds cannot be easily replaced with any old mutt. Same with some cats. Same with some fish. Using a broad term like specialty breeds leads to inconsistencies in arguments.
Edwardy YvettiYeti i mean breeding an extra teeny tiny chihuahua because aw! cute! or trying to keep bulldogs "pure" through inbreeding
Both good points. I just can't call my cat a rescue, it sounds so dramatic! I didn't rescue her from the nice people at the shelter, though I'll say I adopted her. But in life I say I got her at a shelter, not rescue or adopt.
That guy just proved the idea that intelligent people are the best at deluding themselves. You did a great job calmly and rationally rebutting him. I'm amazed at your eye-rolling restraint.
he didn't come across as particularly intelligent or ethical. seemed kind of like an idiot.
Are you intelligent? If so, does that mean that you also have a talent for deluding yourself? Or would you argue that lack of intelligence increases one's ability to construct sound reasoning? Or is this just your non-response when someone makes solid arguments against ideas that you have an emotional connection to? Ironically, it is the emotional connection that is almost always the precursor to self delusion.
did he seriously say that we should not care about the environment?? wth?
#TeamPeople tho....but I don't care about the future generations of this planet. I don't know them fools. Fuck those guys. But still, #TeamPeople. Amirite?
...Mégsem vagyok egyedül a fajtámból az efféle youtube szegleteken? :D
I don't think he is selfish, he is just trying to have no pre-conceived notions that cannot be proven or disproven.
anyone who is unable to understand the importance of the health of the environment is intellectually impaired. this guy is generally moronic, from one point to the next. he's wasting mic time.
Eszti Szép sosem vagy egyedül :P :D
My husband is a French trained chef, his whole life is cooking and preparing meat, when I told him I wanted to be vegan, he supported me, no question.
...?
No question? At all?
Même pas un ptit froncement de sourcil? Zarb...
Don't care about your shitty story
Kayla Crane my fiancé too. He grew up in a hunting family, and when I told him about the ethical dilemma I was having, he said "I'd like to try this with you babe". I am fully vegan, and he is still working on it. Eats a lot less meat now ❤️ we have good men!
Kristina Vee
Awwww:)
"Why would you want to save the galaxy?" - "Because I'm one of the idiots that LIVE HERE!" A great Star-Lord quote that explains why we should care about our planet.
you're the only vegan channel i watch with adblock off :P
you're soo sweet haha i love that
Best compliment 10/10
i also linked your video on one of my viral videos ( i have only one video tho ) it has over 200k+ views i think im drunk . lets keep on watching
I watch with TH-cam Red. Does that help you out as a content creator?
Eli Santana yes it does
I just want to say, when I was transitioning I was turned off by many radical vegans here on TH-cam... However it was videos like yours that educated me and persuaded me to continue my own research on Veganism. I've been an ethical vegan for 9 months now and can't imagine ever consuming animal products ever again, it's just out of the question. Your rational videos played a big part in my transition and I will always remember that. Thank you and please continue what you do!
yes she is just the best isn't she?
'If you value your own pleasure over the suffering of others it makes you a selfish person.' Yes. Thank you.
Favourite vegan channel EVER! Voice of reason in a sea of vegan extremism & sudo science nonsense. 👍
Pseudo*
vegan is an religion;)
+Diana, the Inorganic Vegan 🙈🙌 You got there before I did ;)
+Stefan Magna I'm a born again Christian, so for me Christianity is my faith, and veganism, or at least a more environmentally conscious lifestyle are personal life style choices I'm trying very hard to work towards. :)
pseudo*
Dayumm you smoked him like a cigarette LMFAO
If that was me, I would've felt like an idiot! Her arguments are really good
+Sofie Leech lol hell yea!
I've gone vegan a little while ago, and I must say I'm struggling. Not for the food, the food is awesome, but because when you tell people you're vegan, their opinions come out. And I feel so sad and hopeless finding out that nobody cares. About animals, about the planet...about saving the environment. It's a cross we have to bare
Rather than see it as a burden to bear, try to use those interactions as teaching moments. It's natural for people to react defensively when feeling indirectly challenged by an opposing belief. It brings up some latent guilt they may have about their lifestyle that they're not yet aware of, so it's important to use that opportunity to educate them & have them face their feelings in a rational and constructive way.
I say this out of sympathy: Welcome.
Thank you everyone! I don't have any close vegan friends so sometimes I feel lonely or I feel like I'm the one that's different and weird. I'm just at the beginning and I know it's going to be a long jurney :) I'll learn to interact better with people and maybe make them think!
+6OceanSoul9 i agree it can be lonely. I'm a recent vegan guy, and the only vegans I know irl are my gf (she converted me) and a couple who are good friends and helped convert me. it feels depressing how I have so many friends who are interested in social justice, feminism, animal rights, etc. ...but they all think veganism is too extreme. you're not alone in feeling alone, but that's what we have the Internet for!
Zectifin I'm trying to convert my bf but it's not working. How did your girl convince you?
he doesn't know why reducing harm is ideal? ....
feel free to explain it
*****
well see heres the thing people say they are vegan and that they are some how better than non vegans. They always have the same answer that it is because some bull shit idea of its not doing harm to animals
+tim gersh some people have more empathy than others.
His point here was not that he thinks reducing harm isn't ideal, but that even if we do, there isn't a logical basis for this ideal. I think we should reduce suffering of animals, but why? If it's more efficient and cheap for someone to cause suffering to an animal, what reason do they have to not do it? If it doesn't bother them, logically, they should continue to allow the animal to suffer and conduct business more efficiently. The animal's harm in no way negatively impacts the meat producer, but positively impacts the producer with more efficient production. It's important to keep an open discussion so I'd love if you could share your thoughts on this.
What your saying doesn't make sense. If we have the ideal that reducing harm is a priority, it doesn't matter in practice weather there is a logical basis for it. We clearly don't all share this ideal and we don't base all our values on logic.
Why should we reduce the suffering of animals? because they are sentient beings capable of feeling pain. Non human life that can experience pain is worthy of ethical consideration. That's actually not that arbitrary. Valuing human life just cause humans are awesome is way more arbitrary. It just speaks to in species bias. But even then. What is a human being is far more complicated than what is a dog or a cat.
Because we are defined not just by the contents of our bodies but by the contents of our minds and hearts which is why we in an allegorical way that extremely cruel people are not human. We don't actually mean that they are not biologically part of our species but that they are so immoral that they have no place in our societies and also that not being humane in their treatment of others they are likewise not deserving of humane treatment.
There are a lot of extremely arbitrary ways we try to define the experience and meaning of being human. Intelligence is a hallmark of our species, but clearly intelligence alone is not what makes you worthy of ethical consideration or not. Otherwise it would be perfectly ethical to do any kind of normally unethical act on someone who's mentally retarded or far below the average intelligence, or children or babies.
Why should human babies be given consideration if they do not have superior intelligence to adults of other species? Do we really make the argument that is only because of future potential? is there no inherent value of avoiding causing the suffering of babies for that individual babies experience in this point in time? Surely there is.
"This doesn't make you #teampeople, it makes you #teamyou." BURN.
I just wanted to drop by and say that your rational, and level-headed approach to vegan activism has really inspired me to become a much more vocal vegan myself. It's heartening to have such a great example of effective activism here on TH-cam!
I watched Freelee, I watched many other vegan channels, I have vegan friends and I have watched things such as earthlings before. Out of my own moral standarts I have never gone vegan nor even considered it, but after just watching a few of your videos I just decided to atleast go vegetarian.
How is everything going 3 years later?
Whether this means anything or not I've cut my beef consumption drastically
Jack Rogerson
Any reduction is good.
Veganism is about doing your best to reduce animal products, and that's what you're doing; just because you're not 100% vegan it doesn't mean your efforts don't count. You've got my support.
Jack Rogerson
Yay:)
damn she is calm af
He wonders what's the point of limiting suffering right after talking about empathy? looool
Great video btw! I'm kinda new to this channel
His point here was not that he thinks reducing harm isn't ideal, but that even if we do, there isn't a logical basis for this ideal. I think we should reduce suffering of animals, but why? If it's more efficient and cheap for someone to cause suffering to an animal, what reason do they have to not do it? If it doesn't bother them, logically, they should continue to allow the animal to suffer and conduct business more efficiently. The animal's harm in no way negatively impacts the meat producer, but positively impacts the producer with more efficient production. It's important to keep an open discussion so I'd love if you could share your thoughts on this.
ascvb3
Well I strongly believe he'd see things differently when he actually had to participate in or at least witness the suffering. It's always ease to be 'ok' with something as long as it happens far away and hidden from oneself but I am not convinced that this man simply lacks in empathy for animals. So to come back to the actual question, we should avoid the suffering of other beings since it's what humans deep down believe in. NOBODY watches another person or an animal in pain and misery and thinks it's a good thing, feels positively about it. If that would be the case for anyone, we would title this person a psychopath - mentally disordered. Unfortunately we humans are also selfish and strive for convenience whenever possible, so that's where your point about business efficiency fits in. Seriously...don't we all love to make up 'logical' excuses, so that we don't have to make any extra effort? I know I did. Whenever I didn't want to do my homework haha :') But anyway. There is not point in debating with someone who Is not ready to think outside the box but simply wants to continue following his old habits.
Spot-fucking-on response.
You know what. This channel is glorious.
wow this dude really tought about these excuses. too bad they are just a better version of the good old "i can't do everything so i might just do nothing" kind
I'm not vegan, and I have no idea how I got here, but I love your videos.
Go vegan! :)
+lymo wow what a helpful constructive comment.
abianah howell
This whole video is about the legitimacy of that comment. Watch it if you’d like to see why.
I admire your ability to stay calm when responding to these idiotic arguments.. -_-
This is why I watch this channel. I respect the intelligent, logical, and reasonable approach. So many people just get their info from clickbait without bothering to research anything themselves.
Up to this point I kinda liked the1janitor... but most of his arguements were honestly stupid.
i know he was doing so good until this point
1:12 "Even Paleo looks decent when compared to the American standard diet" lol!!!
Thank you for making this! The arguments he presented are so frequently used as justification among people who eat meat. I see it all the time. It's really nice to have a concise and well-executed response on the internet to present the reality of the situation.
Great response.
you aren't childish, rude, or insensitive, not many people know how to give a response like this one.
thumbs up!👍👍👍👍👍
This video is excellent in every aspect.
*Edit
After watching the entire video I think this is the best video I have ever watched on your channel!
I'd like this guy to draw a line at the point in the history of human evolution where Team People began. What was the defining evolutionary trait that separated Team People from Team Primate? It can't only be mental capacity, since I'm guessing he would want to define Team People broadly enough to include the mentally handicapped.
If hostile aliens invaded Earth, would he support Team Raelian's desire to cage and feed on humans? His belief in moral relativism certainly wouldn't give him any basis to oppose it.
so many rounds of applause for this video! probably one of my favorite videos of yours thus far. thank you so much for making it and staying so level headed in the process.
You say everything I want to say, but better. Thank you.
BlondeRedheadislove
Nice username:)
Great response! I'm really surprised with some of his statements. "Why should we limit suffering?" "Why should we care about the environment?" "Why should I care about the future generation?" Really?? I get a child asking that, but a grown man? It seems so selfish, like he's really just trying to defend his lifestyle no matter what.
Anyway, I really liked how you handled this. Also the mention of pedophiles who fight their urges was really nice. It's really not something I hear people mention, but it definitely deserves respect!
your videos keep me informed and motivated. i appreciate all of your effort and the information you back your oppinions on. sending lots of love your way. :)
Not a lot of people are objective enough to talk rationally about pedophilia, it is such an important conversation to have for the sake of children' safety. I am impressed that you had the courage to mention it in one of your videos an not demonizing people under this condition! A great video as always :)
Holy shit....His answer to "Do I need to care about furture generations?" is ridiculous. He's "Team People" but he doesn't care about people? I don't get the logic...Even if they are strangers in the future. People are people...
i used to really like the1janitor, but his arguments here were very easy to take down, and it makes me rethink the times i've agreed with him
for me, the most convincing argument for veganism is simply the 10% rule. if we don't eat meat, we can support more people with a smaller environmental footprint allowing for more people to live good lives.
yep you just made him look hella silly. thank you for this video and your continuous defence and support of veganism!
You look hella silly for saying hella silly.
+Jeff K oh damn. Too bad.
I was happy when I saw your video in my subscriptions. Great job as always
I am a vegan living in Florida. Our local ocean habitats are being destroyed by the invasive species the lionfish. One solution that is being tried is encouraging the consumption of lionfish (since we are so good at eating species to extinction, use it to our advantage?) I'd love to hear a debate on whether this kind of consumption would fit under the idea of tentative veganism you have expressed (i.e. roadkill, backyard hens, etc.).
Level headed, intelligent, and concise. That is what makes your videos enjoyable to watch. Your information is backed up by real studies, not just opinion or pseudoscience. thumbs up.
Brilliant video. You are rational as well as compassionate, consistent in your points and in general great on debates.
Also thanks for mentioning The Virtuous Pedophiles and your approach to it, I find the topic very interesting.
I literally binge watching you almost all day💚💚 You are amazing!🌱🌱 Thank you so much💚💚
I really adore that you don't use clickbait, how you're so intelligent. Could you do some videos on vegan recipes? Thanks, love you and you're epic channel
This is probably the best (or at least one of the best; i'm trying to think of others and failing) response video I have ever seen on youtube. You're so on point and just yes!!!
I was hoping someone would do a response to him.
I feared somebody would because let's face it a ton of vegans don't make the best responses, lol. But I'm so pleasantly surprised that she did
N. Fer. Ⓥ
That’s largely because many of their points are so absolutely and blatantly wrong, ethically or factually. Such as his assertion that we shouldn’t care about suffering. Honestly, what the fuck? No, we should. If you have to explain that to someone...I don’t know what to say.
This was an excellent response video, well done
she's fucking good! lol
I don’t understand why people like the1janitor would say such things and come to such conclusions. Real vegan arguments put aside, his speech is full of internal contradictions. Are people like him really persuaded they are being intellectually honest?
I'm so glad that your response videos are respectful. It makes it so much easier to listen to you and understand your points. Love your vids!
Has he replied to this in at all? Your response is so calm- teach me your ways!
Also, it is so much easier (depending on where you live, your health and your income) to go vegan than it is to check whether every single source of meat and animal product is 'humane'.
you are incredible, i struggled for so long to voice these things to others yet somehow you manage to do it so calmly, logically and elaborately, love it!
You're the perfect youtuber to do a response to the1janitor. great video!!
I've been hoping that someone would make a response video to him - thank you! Very thorough, bravo!
#teamsentience
I really admire your views and the way in which you present your opinions and information in an unbiased and cool manner. You're an incredible educator. Thank you so much for sharing.
wow, you did answer it wonderfully.
I'm so glad there's someone intelligent like you out there making these video's! And I'm so glad you're not tired of the discussion yet! And I can tell you, bit by bit you're winning! Keep it up!
I really like this video, and I'm only commenting because I can't give more than one thumb up :)
I love your videos, I am slowly but surely changing my dietary habits because of the way you put the message across.
the janitor's thinking seems lacking in logical follow-through and ethics, not to mention being plagued by a lack and misunderstanding of factual information. not very impressed with either his intellect or social conscience. while there may certainly be some very smart people who work as janitors for one reason or another, this person's employment options may be limited by his intelligence.
Your channel is such a breath of fresh air; thank you for offering such a solid, rational, and logical, fact-based dissection of that video.
Wow... I didn't have nearly as much to say as you after watching his video. But of course you do! And I mean that in the best way. Usually I don't watch you because to be honest your content is often quite over my head, but that will change over time and I will eventually watch you more and more as I do more research❤️ Much love, you're such a sweetheart.
It's sometimes over my head, too. I'm not too proud to say that I have rewind a lot and hear it again to get it. hehe
Sara Carter
that's okay... you're learning and that's the best thing.
Thank you for your Channel! We need you, I'v been missing you.
Comments on the a-bas-le-ciel accusations from durianrider? I think it's important to show how fucked durianrider really is.
I have never heard of "the1janitor" before but I have to give him credit for being collected and having what seems to be somewhat unique points on the subject. Nice video UV!
He's actually really cool on other topics, and usually at least attempts to have an impartial point of view. I recommend checking him out!
people in developing nations usually eat a primarily plant-based diet
I love videos like that. You're always so calm and rational.
killer response!
I was waiting for this video! The1janitor's video, to his credit, at least attempts to have some academic honesty, but I found many logical loops within it. I though you were the only one who could point out all flaws in his reasoning in an orderly and convincing manner, and I was not disappointed.
P.S. Do you have a Patreon? If not, you should set one up, cause I'd sure like you to have my money!
Do you watch Bite Sized Vegan? She did a video on backyard hens that's pretty interesting
She also supports vegan diets for cats though so there's that.
+CasteOfCats so does swayze
+CasteOfCats Well being wrong on some things doesn't automatically make you wrong for everything
+lymo I remember her saying she tried that and that since her cats didn't feel well she stopped. When did she change her mind?
You're right, she feeds her cats with non vegan food because they didnt feel good.
Thank you so much for using the pedophilia example. I actually got a little emotional hearing you say that you find the people on that website inspiring, that's not an opinion I hear very often. Verrrry slowly people's opinions on the topic are changing but for you to put it out into the world so matter of factly says a lot about what kind of person you are (a wonderful, wonderful one). Thank you so so much once again.
actually i think it is great, it is ugly and scary, it is touchy and we are not used to such things and we do not accept them, but it kind of makes sense, molesters have wishes and meat-eaters have that too, i have a strong wish to kill my neighbor cause he is an ass, but somehow i haven't and killing neigbors being illegal has a lot to do with that, by the way I am a meat eater and egoistic as fuck were me is more important than anyone else anywhere, but what she said makes sense to me in many ways
Wow thank you so much for making a response video to this. You are so well spoken. Keep it up
You have done a very good job. Thank you!
You've explained everything that was going through my mind while watching the1janitor's video so much better than I ever would. Your channel is thought provoking and very engaging. I feel like your ability to participate in a healthy and rational discussion is underappreciated, you deserve so many more views and subscribers! It was people like you who convinced me to become vegan and it's so refreshing to see a channel that doesn't promote false information or pseudoscience to attract people to veganism. Unlike them, the information you share builds a solid foundation for long term veganism. Excellent job!! Thank you so much!!!
well done AGAIN! You are so awesome.. I just can't.. you are so smart and well spoken.. thank God the "vegan community" has you!
Amazing! I really appreciate all your research and your desire to share the truth. Thank you.
The structure of my video was to separate it into segments with each segment responding specifically to the claim that precedes it. What I'm seeing people do is take each response out of their individual context in order to make them sound more absurd and easier to refute. E.G when I say "doing cartwheels is unnecessary" I'm responding specifically to the claim that "eating meat is unnecessary." Responding to that by saying "doing cartwheels harms no one" is taking my response out of context, I talk about harm in a different section of the video. You do mention that you will cover that later, but you still include this response as if it is not out of context and of course that makes my analogy look ridiculous.
Similarly you immediately mention processed meats in response to me as if I specified them in my video, again you say later that you know not all meats are processed but you left the original statement in your video as if it is relevant. Maybe that was a joke?
Your analysis of the health issue is misleading (you're completely wrong about cholesterol for example, your first link even confirms this, making it interesting that you shared it), but I don't disagree with the idea of balancing your saturated fat intake, so moving on.
Basically everything you say up until the part where you respond to my views on animal's having rights hinges upon the premise that animals have rights and/or that suffering is bad, which I haven't granted. This is what I mean about taking my response out of context. Maybe it was not clear that this was the structure of my video. Also whether or not something is made illegal has very little to do with whether it is objectively wrong to do it.
The rights people bestow upon animals are arbitrary. It would be very easy to argue that human overpopulation is a problem and leads to human suffering, but most people still think that humans have a right to life and a right to their genitals. The "what is beneficial" argument does not hold up.
I did not argue that animals can't feel empathy. I said that animals do not have empathetic duty towards humans and humans do not hold animals responsible for behaving empathetically.
For one the statement "there is no cure for psychopathy/mental disability" is an argument from incredulity. Just because we haven't seen something or can't imagine something doesn't mean it doesn't or can't exist. The potential to internalize empathy and have rational expectations of behavior applies to everything that's a human. At any rate, I think it's clear that we don't have the full amount of empathetic duty towards children and the severely mentally disabled. For example, is it immoral to lie to an infant? Our society has agreed to grant certain rights to infants and the disabled, which is arbitrary to some extent, but if you dogmatically believe that babies have rights it's easy for you to justify this. If you don't, you have to rely on an emotional appeal (which you did in your video actually), which does not qualify as an argument. This also ignores the fact that our duties towards individuals also extend towards our communities, and in most cases harming an individual causes harm to a community.
When you bring up "laws" it sounds like you are conflating inalienable rights with "rights" granted to us by the state. These are not the same. For example, some people in the world do not have the right to own property. Whether or not a person "should" have the right to own property is a subjective conversation.
So next I have to discuss my thoughts on moral behavior. I suppose I could have gone more into detail about this in the video, but I hoped that people would not make assumptions about my beliefs and would just take what I say in the video at face value. Humans have an empathetic contract with other humans. We inherently understand rational expectations of behavior in certain contexts. This contract is a necessary, logical result of the combination of empathy and the ability to reason. Humans do not have this contract with animals, because it is literally incoherent to be a part of a contract with an unwitting party. We do not require empathetic behavior from animals, so there's no basis for them to require it of us. Our decision to do so is completely based on our emotional response.
"X causes harm, but not as much as Y." Is not an argument for something being objectively good or bad. It's an argument that supports your choice but it's hardly good enough to broadly condemn the world for not causing harm in the specific way you have chosen. But again, I haven't granted that causing less harm to animals is the end all be all criteria for all choices a person should make. The same goes for "efficiency of food production", just because something is "efficient" does not mean we are required to do it. And similar to an argument you made earlier, the bar none assumption that your way is hands down the best way and no other way could possibly be better is just unhelpful claim.
When I say I am team people, I am to some extent expressing an opinion. But here's the thing about opinions, they can't be right or wrong. You'll note that at no point in my video did I condemn anyone or claim that people who did not share my view were morally wrong. My video was not an attack on veganism, I have no problem with veganism. My video exists to make the argument that there is no moral imperative for me to be a vegan.
#teampeople is based in part on the fact that humans are in a class of their own when compared to all other species -- the fact that so many people call this distinction arbitrary seems very disingenuous to me. But even if you disagree with the opinion that humans are special and that their desires and needs trump those of animals, it's still an opinion. The combination of this opinion and the inherent empathetic contract humans have with each other precludes any argument about male vs female, black vs white. or your pedophile example. The rational expectations humans have for each other causes these ideas to be worthy of reproach and condemnation. It is not analogous to humans vs other species (because humans and animals do not have empathetic duty to each other). The comparison between a individual adult raping an individual child and someone doing something that, as a part of a large group of people, indirectly supports the propagation of an industry that indirectly results in the deaths of humans, is grossly untenable. It's somewhat insulting to be sure. This is a sensationalist emotional appeal, which wins the crowd, but doesn't make for a good argument.
We all do things every day that in a roundabout way indirectly result in harm to humans, and we have to decide what we find to be the most appealing and important to us. And not one of us is in any position to make objective claims about the fact that we're more righteous because my way of harming humans is less bad than your way of indirectly harming humans.
Mate, you got completely owned by Unnatural Vegans logical arguments. You won't go vegan because you are selfish, not for any other reason.
Opinions, much like beliefs, cannot be right or wrong until you act on them with intention.
"The comparison between a individual adult raping an individual child and someone doing something that, as a part of a large group of people, indirectly supports the propagation of an industry that indirectly results in the deaths of humans, is grossly untenable." - Why is it? Let's forget about how clickbaity this argument is and really look at it without a sense of insult. How is it untenable?
on a quick first reading what remained with me was your emphasis on contracts and community as a basis for according rights. I guess that is so in a strict legal sense but we're not necessarily lawyers, we are necessarily moral agents. I think the word "right" was borrowed from legal parlance because so much of our philosophical culture is based on the Roman civil law tradition, but it's just borrowing an analogy. I do not literally refrain from harming someone because of a social contract, I promote their well-being because I have rational conviction that they are like myself in relevant ways andd it would be irrational to treat them differently than I treat myself when I pursue happiness, or because I have a duty of mercy, or etc. My point is that what I can get from you has nothing to do with moral obligations to you. Law may or may not enforce ethical norms but ethical norms are not literally analagous to legal norms. The word "right" seems to me distinct legal and ethical meanings, and we shouldn't confuse the two
also, you seem to have a relativism thing going on: its "opinion" that non-humans suffer/are sentient. No, its as close to being an incontrovertable fact as anything can be, denying this is just denial, a psychological defence, rationalisation not rationality. Yes, the well being of non-humans and humans may well be different just as the conditions of well being vary between human individuals, that doesn't put us all in diferent categories, we all nonetheless have a wellbeing which must be defended and promoted
I was hoping you'd respond to this video. You made some great points!
Does anyone else view Swayze as a sort of real-life Bones?
This is probably the most important vegan video on TH-cam.
I realy liked this video, I'm not a vegan but I appreciate your arguments and I like hearing them. I was wondering, have you considered making a video about ChrisGoneRaw? He was a vegan for some years, with very science-heavy arguments and recently he's gone back to eating meat, also providing science-heavy arguments to back up his decission. I think it'd be interesting to hear your thoughts on that.
Thank you.
Food waste *is* an issue. It's exacerbated by feeding grain to animals being raised for food, but that's not the only issue; a lot of perfectly edible produce never even reaches grocery stores, because it's deemed too "ugly" to sell. Of course, this doesn't stop after the food hits the shelves; plenty of fruits and vegetables get thrown out by grocery stores once it starts to ripen/get a little spotty. And he is kind of right about how war and land expansion affects the food supply. So...you're both kind of right, and this is something I'd love to see more vegans address in a serious way.
ElectricMayhem87 (Ashleigh) True. I worked at shop and when it was time to trow cakes who reach there time, fruits and veggies who are to ugly and other food. It's like poor people could eat that stuff. And the thing is that animal products (milk, pasta, meat) who not gets buy and close to eat actually goes for poor families opposite then fruits and veggies.
Will you please make a video addressing the "hunting is necessary for population control" argument?
I would be interested in that as well! and perhaps somewhat related issue that sterilisation/castration of pets/strays is necessary for population control.
The arguments he made are among the better ones I've heard from family members. I'm happy you made this video :) It is more useful to me than responses you've made your comments that can be responded to with "that's an appeal to ... "
You should be a lawyer. Great vid! 👍🏼
This was very thought provoking. I hope the guys sees this video. Btw I miss your what I ate videos :(
Can you make a video responding to the a-bas-le-ciel situation? Thanks for another great video x
What's going on?
+Matthias Joseph Thomas van Trigt search for it, its everywhere :)
What's going on is Durianrider made a new controversy to gets views. Same old shit.
This is one of your best videos! Your response videos are encouraging me to talk about veganism with non vegans in a calm and reasonable way. And to back it up with the studies you provide below your videos. Thank you for spreading the vegan message the way you do!
Unnatural Vegan is a BOSS when it comes to these types of point by point responses.
Small point: Road kill is far better from an ethical perspective, however if you live in an area with natural predators you would be best to leave it there and let them scavenge it. People don't eat everything, vultures wolves lions and other predators and scavengers will.
She's pretty good. I noticed that small point as well, and another issue with it is that some animals need to mourn their dead friends/family members, they benefit from that closure, such as rabbits. My ex and I once saw a rabbit hanging around the dead body of another rabbit, right in the middle of the road. He/she wouldn't leave it, so we moved it off the road so that the living one wouldn't find the same fate.
Yea, I agree. The whole eating roadkill is better b/c of the "it prevents waste" excuse is pretty silly. When we use human corpses in the same hypothetical, we find that our concern for waste is irrelevant so it should have no basis for animals either.
YourMajesty143
Also a great point. We don't eat humans or systematically use their bodies as fertilizer or anything else.
Non-veg chiming in here, just gushing today about people who are able to debate ideas on the internet logically and respectfully, and always appreciate when someone links the sources of their claims. Exchange of ideas that avoids belittling each other or peddling abject propaganda makes everyone a little less ignorant. Kudos to you for being a part of it!
I'm really enjoying this channel! I'm not vegan/vegetarian (yet) myself, but I have been recently trying to research as much as possible about what foods I'm eating and how they are helping/hurting me (due to my chronic and debilitating Ulcerative Colitis).
I watched some videos of Freelee & That Vegan Couple (both which I didn't enjoy and just gave me a lot of negative vibes), and then saw Fully Raw Kristina (which, while much mellower in tone, her diet would just not work with my condition and life), but it wasn't until I binge watched a ton of your videos that I started to gain actual interest and knowledge about transitioning to a more plant based diet.
I really appreciate your tempered and pragmatic approach to this often overly emotional topic, as I personally don't respond to brash and unsupported soundbites as well as I respond to logical thinking. I don't know if I would ever fully go vegan (though I'll never say never!), as I don't necessarily have the same moral concerns about eating meat if the animal is raised and treated ethically, but even that should limit my animal product intake, as I'd like to stop eating any animal product that I don't know 100% where it came from (i.e. basically never eat animal products in a restaurant again).
Sorry for the essay, but one more thing: if you haven't done so already, I'd love to see a video from you about processed foods within the vegan community. I know a lot of 'Gluten Free' and vegan packaged foods end up replacing gluten/animal ingredients with gums and other chemicals that are really not good for you - I'd love to hear how you avoid those things in "convenience" foods, and/or what to look out for that may be detrimental!
I'm not a vegan, and I'm never going to be.. But I love to learn and understand points of view .. You are the only vegan that I'm subscribed to and love to watch..
this post makes me feel so happy. i relate so much. :)
Never say never? Lol
+Annie Jacobs good point 😜
Why?
Why wouldn't you go vegan?
Nice job! You are so well spoken and rational, so great to see!
you killed this one good job!
Thank you for mentioning people in developing countries! Also, they don’t eat meat everyday in my experience living in Rwanda, instead it’s more of a special occasion thing which I think is a better attitude honestly. Since being here I can’t imagine eating meat every day or even every week.
Your videos have encouraged me to stop purchasing meat to eat at home and at restaurants and only eat it when visiting other people. I have also given up dairy altogether. These are my first steps! ☺️ thank you unnatural vegan for being encouraging, nonjudgmental and evidence focused!
Some of the things he says, or as he might see them, "arguments," sound straight borderline psychopathic and don't make any logical sense. This was such a thorough and level headed response that will hopefully educate him on the matter.
Regarding road kill, when I'm asked if I'd eat it, I respond that I wouldn't, just like I wouldn't eat my granddad's corpse. I'm having a hard time agreeing with your statement that eating road kill is moral. Would you say eating human corpses is moral?
She basically did say that, right after the roadkill point. (Although I wouldn't be surprised if she would tack on "with prior permission")
Objectively speaking, nothing really. Is like making the question "would you save five stranger from a fire or your own mother?" The fact that you know the person take another completely different turn that when is just a dead creature with wich you didn´t had any connection prior death.
There's a difference between something being ick and something being ethically wrong.
Eating a human corpse isn't inherently unethical. It's just disgusting. Murder is of course unethical. But if we are talking about a person that died of natural causes especially in a survival situation, no it's not wrong.