You would think that after all the decades of bitching about crappy volume knob feel manufacturer's would have gotten the hint by now. Nope, we get ultra expensive gear with a $5 knob/pot.
I realize I am probably in the minority. But I actually go out of my way to avoid products with touchscreens. For one I don't wish to be in front of them to utilize it. And two its just one thing that will limit the life of the product. As usually screens dim or go out before anything else does. That and over time the screens lose resolution or brightness compared to new products and it really dates the unit.
All screens degrade, that has nothing to do with touch and repair may be $10 more at most. I don't care for touch but it won't stop me from buying a device as long as there is another way to get to the functions. As a matter of fact I don't care about screens on consumer audio gear in general.
I would assert that the tiny touch screens are intended for near field/desktop listener who would be within arm's reach of the screen from their listening position. This isn't across the spectrum of devices obviously but for a number of the smaller 2 channel models I would think this could be a common application for the unit. Small apartments, dorm rooms, second homes or even work spaces at a regular desktop. A fun video thanks John.
HDMI out is the future! Hands down, having the now playing on my tv is the whole reason I use spotify app on my tv when streaming, however I get better sound when using airplay directly to my amp. I don’t really care about a screen as such on any component, however the only thing I like having is being able to see the volume number on my amp, which my partner also agrees with!
Most of the audiophiles I know use either their phone, or, better yet, a stand alone iPad for a visual display. It is my opinion visual displays on streaming devices are marketing gimmicks, and add additional cost to the device!
this...using my iPad sitting on my comfy couch. am I really suppose to get up and stare at the screen or physically change the inputs through my fingers...
"iPad", but "it's complicated" might be the best answer. The control I use multiple times daily is the WiiM Remote where I have the numbered buttons 1-4 programmed to radio station streams I listen to. In the kitchen when I listen to music instead, I pull out my iPad or phone to manage it. At my desk I use the TH-cam Music app on my iMac or sometimes the iPad or phone again. On all my WiiM devices with touch sensitive controls I disable them in the app config. I don't use these touch controls if I can avoid it as they just get accidentally activated when I am fumbling with the device to unplug and replug it when I need to reboot it to solve stuck stream unresponsiveness.
When they down-sized albums to cd-sized boxes, then streaming without notes or artwork. We lost that physical connection to the music, artists and commentators on the old album covers.
Screens? Do we need them? In my case, no. I do own the WiiM Ultra, but not for the screen, I did not need it, nor really want it, but it does look cool. I primarily run a Volumio Rivo streamer, which I can view the album art on my TV via HDMI, then add a Roon Nucleus One, and the sound is incredible... But, I must say the Ultra sounds incredible via the Nucleus One too, and the WiiM software is second to none, and for that reason I think I will keep it. ApplePlay, not a feature I am interested in. I am waiting for WiiM to build a unit like the Rivo, with quality parts that takes the WiiM line to true audiophile levels. I think they can do just that, and hope they will. Just my .02
That Wiim Ultra has a very attractive price and special software for a reason. Their servers are controlled by the CCP and western devices are full of interesting data.
I think the Volumio Rivo and Primo are the most stylish of all. I was hoping they would have Amazon music by now but they told me it was in their plans sometime last year. I would be curious if you had to get an improved power source for your Rivo in that Alpha Audio seems to think that makes a lot of difference.
@@williamhicks2763 I am using the Farad Super 3 with the Rivo, and an Sbooster with my Roon Nucleus One, and it sounds incredibly good. Very audiophile.
I prefer to use an iPad to display and navigate songs. I use Roon which makes that easy. Really want Apple to support the same ‘Connect’ approach used by Spotify & Tidal. Apple is the worst to support lossless playback and needs to get in the game.
@@Terry-bs9jb all you need is an apple camera cable and a good DAC and you’ll get full hi res lossless on Apple including many digital masters. You will need to change the settings on your phone or iPad to get this. Superb quality.
I LOVE the Wiim Ultra screen simply for the DB Meter function.... No it is nothing needed, but I love VU meters, have the Ultra connected to my vintage Marantz 2215b and the meter from Wiim puts smile on my face.... And that's what counts.....
I don’t like using my phone while listening to music on my Hi-Fi. I already spend half a day with it and it’s full of distractions. That’s why I prefer to stand up from my couch to the streamer and operate it using the touchscreen or the remote control. I’m used to it since I mostly listen to vinyl records and those require me to stand up either way so not a big deal.
@@tima.478I agree! Yes it does sell units, though if you use the screen on the streamer, you are in essence interacting more with your hifi component directly. The convenience of streaming is what I believe got us into this mess of many using streaming more than physical media. It could be a pain if you are listening at one song at a time and switching constantly to another. But I suspect that most music/audio enthusiasts are full album listeners? So you would be getting up every 25 minutes maybe…that’s not bad at all.
I agree, would like a screen on the streamer but it doesn't need to be touch, no so much for album art but stuff like displaying volume, "vu" meters, frequency graphs. Playback information and control is fine to be displayed on a phone or better yet a tablet and mirrored to the tv if applicable. The cost to add touch would be better used for software development and an hdmi out.
Very good points, well argued! I don't want my TV switched on. I feel like I spend too much time on screens as it is. However, when streaming from my iPhone to my amplifier, headphones, etc., I LOVE that my Apple Watch displays the album art, track title, artist and track progress. I can - and frequently do - adjust the volume using the digital crown. All I need to do is lift my wrist momentarily and don't even need to reach that bit further, or have to look for my phone. It's odd that the iPad can't be controlled by the Apple Remote app. I don't have an iPad to test, but I fairly often do control Apple Music playing on my MacBook Pro using the Remote app - including browsing my music library and choosing different music to play. So for me the only downside is the loss-ey streaming of AirPlay, here's hoping for AirPlay 3!
I completely agree! I have no use for a touchscreen on a streaming amplifier or DAC! I just want to start music on my iPhone and then send it to the various AirPlay receivers around my house. If the receiver can display album artwork that is a bonus, but not necessary.
I certainly agree that having a touchscreen on a streamer is basically audiophile catnip, and in the real world, for most people, it makes very little sense apart from showing off to friends. I currently run two streamers, which I run with two tablets (one upstairs and one downstairs); tablets are much bigger, with better touchscreens, and are far more accessible when I am sitting listening to music.
I can understand your logic for thinking touchscreens are really better suited to desktop use. But I have a counter-argument to that. In my own opinion (and I do it this way in my own second system) which is a desktop job, my main interface is my laptop. And it's great. The interface of Tidal on my laptop is better than any app version, so I don't really see the need for a dedicated streamer. In my case I have a Quad Vena II DAC/amp which has a USB B input. I love having a physical volume knob too so I can quickly reach for the volume without first clicking, swiping or unlocking anything. And I also note that my PC as a streamer has never crashed and very very rarely loses wifi signal. This has not been my experience with every streamer I have bought, including my current Wiim Pro. I have been thinking along similar lines to you though regarding my main system where I sit on a couch 3-4 metres away from my streamer. Although I have an Apple TV, I agree that the Tidal interface is a bit rudimentary. So I have been considering buying a mini PC, sending HDMI video output to the TV and at the same time sending audio over USB to my DAC/amp. But then I need a wireless mouse/keyboard to control it from a distance. So there aren't really too many streamers that nail this yet are there. And I think you point to what the market is asking for: a streamer (no screen necessary) with an HDMI output in 16:9 landscape aspect ratio, and a nice simple remote to click through the options visible on your TV. As always, great video John and thank you too for your meticulous research that's behind the scenes of your videos.
I have Roon installed on an old laptop as an end point not main server. attach a USB dac of your choice for audio and HDMI out to my TV for the now playing screen
John, you made a clear point in your discussion : if you have a streaming device on your workstation, then a screen has utility, such as a FIIO R9. However if your amp/streamer sits on a rack or underneath your tv, the remote app is the way to go and no need for a touchscreen.
I think an HDMI output would be the best fit - people can increase/decrease screen to their preference as essentially most screens are just too small on hifi equipment. My concern on streamers in general is they are essentially part hifi, part hi tech. How many years of updates/support are offered before their OS (Android or otherwise) for their touchscreen is either a security risk on the home network or unable to receive streams as no longer supported/compatible with newer phones, etc. My old Marantz CD7300 is around 20 years old but still works. No updates/support required, just a reasonably high quality hifi component - add a CD and it plays. I don't think we'll be saying the same for streamers over the same period - planned obsolescence.
Darko, this is when you are at your best--not splitting hairs about sound quality differences between electronics, but talking about the big picture of what it takes to get a great overall experience actually using and living with your audio system and room
Agree that touchscreen on streamer can be replaced by APP. But touchscreen is still good as I prefer all devices should be standalone (not dependent to APP) when needed.
For the living room, I own a "traditional" setup of passive speakers and amp (and radio and cd player and turntable) and have been streaming from my phone via rca. I have been thinking of a different setup for a long time, one that should also include streaming, preferably an all in one (I know, I know) but nothing seemed "ok" enough; a streaming amp came into the discussion to replace the one I have, but I was never quite happy about this solution; most probably because 1. it seems like the kind of solution that would become obsolete rather quickly and 2. the little screen makes no sense to me either. Of course, a streaming amp without a display would solve one of two problems, but not both. I must admit that streaming through a smart tv was never in my plans, since a tv was never in my plans; but after watching enough Darko videos (at least for now) I am convinced that it is a pretty darn good solution - big screen, remote, also can use the phone as a remote (I think) if in a different room (for any reason), streaming apps should be up to date at all times and/or easier to update than the ones inside a streaming amp (I think)...
I for one, was disappointed that the Wiim Ultra’s HDMI was audio only. I have an iPad in my office that is connected to a TV, so often run it with the Wiim application cover art. Would like Wiim to add a video HDMI for the option in my living room. I use the touch screen in my office on the Ultra, so both is my response.
My setup is all around Roon and I use my smartphone to select songs/playlists/radio. No need for a screen or even "Touchscreen" on my streamer (sonore opticalRendu). My preamp shows the input and volume level, my DAC shows the bitrate (both PS Audio). That's it. I used to think, that having a large screen is the holy grail, but i have learned from my mistakes. As you pointed out, when your audio rack compatible devices are sitting a few meters away, it is hard to read and therfore useless. I am now in love with my PS Audio gear, because they show perfectly the minimalistic information I want them to show (volume level, bitrate).
TV. I am pretty anti-touchscreen. I want a traditional-looking device with buttons and knobs. Plus, I use ROON on mostly my laptop but sometimes my tablet or phone.
Great article. I have KEF LS50W2, Samsung Frame TV on the wall and Samsung phone. I start Spotify connect in the KEF app which I control from my Samsung phone (the app is always open on the phone), I then start Spotify connect app on the TV and ensure that Spotify is still using the speakers built in Spotify connect, I mute the TV. All three sync and I get the art, track info etc visually on the TV. A slight lag on the TV but no issue. I cant control Spotify through the TV remote ie to change the track playing without the source reverting to the TV but I can move around to show the track playing artwork or the album/playlist tracklist. If I want to use the TV as control but with lower res, I select the TV output to the KEFs
Great analysis! I find the display on my NAD M33 more pretty than useful. That's why I placed a Ropiee Display on top of the M33 for better visibility of album art and metadata. I would have loved to use my TV for this, but it's an OLED and the danger of burn-in is real. I find a large iPad in portrait mode on stand sitting on the side table to be ideal. Regarding apps, I find it annoying that the BluOS app doesn't replicate ALL settings of the M33's screen, so sometimes I do have to crouch down on the floor. I think manufactures will continue with the displays because it sells and doesn't cost them much.
iPad - I have a Mac BookAir (Intel = old+cheap) connected to my dac that runs Audirvana to stream local files and also stuff from Qobuz. I control it from my couch using and iPad mini that allows me to see album art and extra content. I'm a happy bunny. FYI, none of my hifi gear has a screen and I actually enjoy moving around to select and cue vinyl. So yeah, not so much future-fi as retro-faff. But I repeat, I'm a happy bunny.
Love the content, I am a subscriber and I have a I pad, I have apple app , iTunes, what HiFi Dac streamer would you suggest if I’m using my Samsung TV. If that makes any sense? Beginner.
I recently set up a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos system with a Denon AVR-4800H and an Apple TV. I had no idea lossless Dolby Atmos playback was available through Apple Music on the Apple TV. It’s totally changed my listening habits. My 77” TV is the only screen I need.
Warning: Super long response ;-) --- I didn't hear Darko present a compelling reason for - NOT - having a touchscreen. And too much about Apple Music and vertical vs horizontal orientation. I don't subscribe to Apple Music and personally prefer a horizontal screen. But this really is irrelevant to the topic of touchscreens in general as they "satisfy market demand". He said so himself. Yes, people want them and why not? Of course it helps sell units. It covers all use cases.... the desktop user, the couch potato sitting 12-feet away, and anyone seeking some eye candy. Why do people buy McIntosh? I suspect it's partially for the blue meter eye candy.... not that I'm a fan. If you're going to take up front panel real estate with a LCD screen anyway, why not make it a touchscreen? It makes perfect sense for feature rich products (like the Eversolo line) with so many configuration and preference settings. The Menu layering is intuitive and doesn't even require a user manual. The alternative would be knobs or switches and a dizzying sequence of toggles, presses , pulls, twists and turns. Remember the yank and crank happy BMW iDrive infotainment controller knob? Even BMW graduated to touchscreens in their latest vehicles. For initial setup and a multitude of preferences it's real easy using the touchscreen vs yanking on buttons and knobs. Which reminds me, I'm going to change my DAC setting to one of the slow rolloff choices and I might even play with the Eversolo EQ and DSP. Try that with a couple buttons. Oh I did, and it was a royal PITA on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
The Airplay 2 Apple Music app does not downsample to airplay 2 receiving devices when you have dolby atmos disabled, sound check disabled, AND the track must not be downloaded. This is a bug in the current Apple Music app because it is updated to support new functionality of airplay which have not been enable on even the iOS 18 developer betas yet, but will be enabled by the public stable iOS 18 release. What is happening is that the Apple Music and Tidal app notice that the output device is airplay and attempts to send the atmos file to the airplay device, but airplay iOS stops this before its sent and downsamples it to aac 256kbps and sends it to the airplay 2 receiver as dolby Atmos over airplay is not supported iOS side, and receiving device side yet. the sound check bug is another manifestation of this issue, as there is a new implementation to identify source because of the addition of atmos support. Please understand that this is not a misrepresentation of the capabilities of Airplay on Apple's part, but a "version" mismatch bug caused by the feature updates to the airplay protocol. In fact you can test this by streaming Apple Music from an apple device that supports airplay 2 but not Spatial Audio. you will always get cd quality. Also I read your article, and there is a portion of the table that has HomePods listed as a receiving device, HomePods and Apple TVs work differently as they are native Apple Music players, and can stream Apple Music directly, so dont mix the 2, as when you are streaming music, the moment you select it through airplay, it will switch to player mode and stream the song directly, your phone can disconnect from the internet and it will still play all songs in queue, whereas with airplay 2 speakers, the song will only play till the last data buffer was sent.
If you're watching a screen for details of ... cover art, level, metadata etc. - you're not listening. Switch all the lights off, or dim them, and listen in the dark or semi-darkness. Suppress one of your senses, and the others perk up, including your hearing. I don't need a Now Playing, because I KNOW WHAT I'M LISTENING TO. I remember selecting it shortly before listening to it, and I know the music. Why would I need a display of it?
Thanks for the visibility on this issue. It's a major consideration for manufacturers. I think the question is a bit leading from your end, and I'd like to offer a different framing. TV, Integrated touch screen, App feedback, better sound and enclosure quality/finishes. This is the reality of the choices at a high level, and there's financial sliders to optimize/address each one. By far the most efficient compromise is the app feedback + better sound for example. But note that the sound is still being comprised.
For sofa listening I'd much rather use an iPad or iPhone to remotely control my Roon server, with the addition of using the TV:Remote app for the extra visual. The only need for an on-board screen on a device would be if you're a desktop only user. I would much rather companies invest in the quality of the streamer internals than adding a touch screen.
I wonder why no manufacturer has built a product that does what eversolo do, put the screen of the streamer on your phone but yet actually do not put any physical screen on the device itself. Some kind of a virtual/remote screen. You can still install android apps like Apple Music on the device itself, control it by using your phone, but the sound signal would play natively on the device.
I use the A6 in my home studio connected to powered monitors and it's great for the desk. In my main system I have an Auralic Aries G2.2. I love seeing the cover art, that is about all I use the screen for. I'd love a HDMI out just for it to mirror the screen or show album art. Currently on top of my hifi rack, I have a 24" Dell touchscreen. Visitors LOVE it as they can select music and so on via that. As I am moving, I am going to add a TV in between for cover art. But 100% for a HDMI out. "Touchscreen" for the desktops though
A hidden Raspberry pi with a dac to my amp. I can play lossless hires from all popular services in Addition to Spotify connect. All this controlled from whatever whatever client you like. A nice iPad or my phone. This is the perfect ui. I just select what speakers I want to play from the client
‘TV’ for sure. The iPhone app with the TV would be the best alternative. For speakers even … my 50” Samsung TV has amazing sound but I can also access a pair of Apple HomePod minis which have a bit better base when needed. Great channel John!
Have an Eversolo DMP A-6 because of the hype. Not disappointed in the product at all, but found the interface clunky (maybe because it's Android, and I'm an Apple guy) Upgraded to the Cambridge EVO 150.Don't miss the touchscreen whatsoever. I do like to use all three - controls on unit, iPad, iPhone, and I use the TV Remote app when I want to see the cover art on my TV screen. The touchscreen is exactly as you say - catnip - so are the VU meters. They're cool to look at for a little while, then the novelty wears off, and I just want the cover art. Great points, and another great video!
TV for sure. And, specifically for Apple Music -- Apple could own this space if they wanted to, they just don't appear to care much. The Apple TV is practically the perfect form-factor for a set-top streamer. It has HDMI out. It has an interface built for large screens (TVs and Monitors), it has an easy to use remote, as well as full smart-phone access via Apple's remote app in iOS. They'd only need to change the internals a bit to accommodate full bit-perfect, hi-res audio over HDMI (the iPad already does this using a $39 dongle). They could add a USB-C output (and/or a second HDMI output) so you could split the un-touched audio to your dac of choice, while still sending the video output to a monitor or TV. And they could add a simple toggle in the Apple music app that could toggle between sending audio over HDMI vs USB-C so one could easily switch back and forth between the two options. (I'm sure that same toggle could be made accessible to other streaming apps like Tidal, Amazon HD, etc -- they'd just have to add the support to their respective apps). Honestly, this whole streamer dac environment is frustrating AF. I think Wiim, Fiio, and EverSolo get the closest but, for all the reasons you mention, still don't provide as seamless an experience as we COULD have from the Apple TV.
My solution is to use a mini PC. There are mutiple benefits, esp if you use roon. Mini PC is both Roon Server and Roon Player. I can sit on my couch and control Roon with a wireless mouse/keyboard. View everything on the TV and audio going from mini PC to roon ready device (Wiim Pro in my case). Without Roon, Im sure I can make the mini PC work simply as my streamer (tidal, spotify, etc..) and still viewon TV. This is a way cheaper solution than ROON hardware and it also functions as a PC that I can use on my TV for any other PC purpose.
I’m definitely in the iPad camp for remote UI control. I’d rather manufacturers put more effort into making their displays and symbology more legible from a distance than having a touch screen.
Now if only someone invented a gadget to remotely control a device. Maybe call it a remote control ... We have two things to consider here - operation and display. Obviously you want to operate your device from where you sit and listen, so any controls on a device beyond an on/off switch only make sense as you say with a device on your desktop. The display can either be big and far away (TV ...) or close and smaller (but my eyes age ...) I think if they want to have a flashy feature to show for marketing make the display a barebones tablet that can be removed from the unit and serve as a remote. Drop it back on the device for charging and storage. Only needs a relatively low bandwith connection, as it doesn't handle much data.
My solution was to stream from Roon Rock to Topping E70 Velvet to Sonos and have cover art on Sony TV via Apple TV: Remote Roon extension. The Sony TV screen is better than the Roon Chromecast screen, as the screen is constantly changing, so no burn-ins are possible. This is my perfect setup for now. And, of course, I never need tiny screens on streamers or DACs. The TV screen is more than enough-it's big and beautiful-this is what I need for my favorite music.
I'm surprised you seem to have missed the fact that Sonos now support lossless streaming from Apple Music. Previously I was using an iPad Air connected via USB DAC to give me lossless streaming. This works very well but is not great having the cable. I've never bought into Sonos before but on the news of the lossless support went out and bought a Sonos Port to connect to existing amplifier. Works a treat. I did think about getting the Sonos Amp but felt the port more versatile, it's a shame the amp doesn't have pre out for best of both. Grab a port and give it a go :)
Why don't manufacturers supply a smart phone type remote control, instead of having to use your phone.. Smart phones are pretty cheap so supplying a dedicated device would be nice, even have a wireless charger too, so you can leave it on the coffee table or next too the system , I'm not a big fan of having to use my phone for these things all the time.. Yes so leave the unit blank ,even hidden away, and have the dedicated touch screen in your hand.. Cheers 👍
Ive got 2 hifi setups at home and both are computer based. A mac mini hooked up to a TV in the loungeroom, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. And a macbook pro with external monitor on a desk in my studio listening in nearfield. Being able to run Dirac live, TV streaming apps, music streaming apps, youtube, soundcloud, plex etc is way more flexible than a streamer i think....
I am using a setup like you, but with some other components: I use a Mi Box connected to my TV and I use the Toslink output on the Mi box to connect to my DAC. So no resampling or splitter needed. I can use the android apps installed on the box for listening to music. Have the album art on screen and music to my DAC. Use a remote or use Spotify connect. A very simple solution (for the non Apple fans like I am).
my setup is laptop connected to Mission 778X via usb, an HDMI cable from laptop to TV which then mirrors what's on laptop screen even with it closed as long as i don't shut it down & instead put it in sleep mode, i control the laptop from my listening position using a cheap as chips wireless handheld keyboard with track pad & can stream my chosen music app & anything else such as watching your channel. simple & effective.
I regret buying an Oled tv because they recommend not projecting still pictures (as with 'now playing'). I should have followed my first idea of getting "The Frame". You effectively talked me out of wanting a streamer with a screen as I hate crouching and kneeling in front of my gear when using it. Great video, great comment.
While I do wish the made for desktop Naim Uniti Atom Headphone Edition had touch controls I generally agree. I wish the Marantz 40 had the same feature for HDMI out as the 70. That said, consider that the touch forward feature set may be about multi-member households. It’s going to be much easier for a non audiophile to hit a couple buttons on a screen than to get them to download an app and configure it and use it to control the stereo. Most people form a task, then pick the tool. Rewiring the tool to use is an uphill battle. Why do I have to use my phone to play the stereo? Just make The stereo more like the phone.
Apple's way of doing things is inferior. I have the Wiim Ultra and I love everything about it. I do not use the touch screen functions, but I like being able to glance over to see what is playing. It is very easy to control with the Wiim app, Tidal connect, Spotify connect or Alexacast. I replaced a Wiim Pro Plus with the Ultra in my office setup. The Ultra is now my streamer, dac, headphone amp and preamp. It is an awesome device.
What I recently realised that I want to listen to my music, and it sound as good as it can for my budget. I’m up for changing components out to do this upgrade over time. I listen to CDs, LPs, approx 25% of the time - as my wife says ‘because your on the spectrum’ so love the progress of do so. I am now sitting in a chair with the music. I listen to streaming playlists appprox 50% of the time, while cooking, having dinner, entertaining etc. 25% of the time I sit and listen via streaming (looking for new music) so I flicking through songs on my ipad, never my phone. Conclusion - the screens on the streamer are a bit of a gimmick, for me only.
Great John, i was waiting so long for this topic... For sure i think, the streaming devices would need an Hdmi output. To display the "now playing" info on a TV and also run the streaming app like tidal via remote.
Thanks John, you've just hit on the very gripe I've always had with touchscreens on hifi equipment,,, Look nice but who wants dodgy knees or a bad back to engage with them . Install every piece of front end hardware with the ability to stream now playing to your TV. Great review. Mark.
I guess my setup is pretty different than what a typical audiophile would have. When I'm sitting on the couch, I'm listening to two Echo 4th gen devices paired with a Amazon 4k fire stick. I ditched Spotify for Amazon Music to be able to play cd quality streams from my phone to the paired echos and onto my screen. Not an audiophile sound but I'm easy to please, although the Amazon echosystem has its issues. I have a set of Edifiers R1280t that I use on my desk along with a dozen of headphones and an ifi zen dac v2, and a fiio k5 pro ess, paired with a Wiim pro. I use Roon when I'm on my desk and have an ultrawide screen.
The answer is TV... it's all about the 10 foot interface! I want my music interface on my TV... now playing, catalog selection, lyrics, settings, bitstream information, output and speaker selection... the whole 9 yards. The streamer devices we're using as our preamps already have all these features packaged in a single phone app for us - like the Wiim home app... but here's the kicker - they don't make an AppleTV version of the Wiim home app! Or a WebOS version of the app for LG televisions... or a Tizen version for Samsung TV's... I dont want to have to plunk around on my phone in my living room when I'm sitting down to listen to music. I wanna use my remote and HDTV! Just give me a full featured version of the Wiim Home app for AppleTV or WebOS, and I'll give you all my money!
Hi John I am using an iPad as a streamer playing tidal or Apple Music or dsd through the onkyo app through USB ==> teak ud501 dac . . There is a way to control the iPad with an iPhone. Settings / accessibility / control nearby devices. Control is basic like back fwd play and volume, not ideal but good enough not to stand up. If I need more control I go wireless through an airport 1 as per brother Thomas analysis. By the way what is you opinion of the streaming audio quality between an iPad / wiim ultra / eversolo a6? Is it worth the upgrade?
I got the Eversolo A8 last year, after waiting years for a self-contained, mass-market option. I'd attempted to create a system with a Pi and DAC and a five-inch touchscreen, but the (Kodi) touch-specific interface was underwhelming. My audio system is connected to a 4K front projector and an 83" cinemascope screen. I have no interest in firing up a projector to listen to my music library. In addition to the touchscreen, I can control playback on the A8 with my universal infrared remote. I also don't use a mobile phone, and my iPad and Android tablets get limited use, and I don't want to have to take either to my rooms upstairs. The self-contained music streamer is exactly what I needed. This just seems like something that should have existed ten years ago, for slightly more than the cost of a desktop mini pc ...
I have NAD C658. If I connect my Apple TV to the MDC HDMI unit of my NAD and then HDMI output to my TV, will NAD process and play the audio and my TV display album and browser info?
I prefer to use a monitor (I have used a TV as a monitor) and it is a touch screen under Android or from a desktop computer or laptop. A TV or computer monitor can be very inexpensive but is another item to plug in. It depends how you control it. Few TV are touch screen and not all can be controlled by a keyboard and touch pad or mouse. I looked into using an Android tablet or iPad to control streaming from the system's app. I was even given an iPad for testing but it is iOS 9 (old I guess) and the app only supports iOS 14 and more recent. Conversely when I got a new Android phone because my old phone is stuck on Android 8 some apps would not install saying the app was too old for the OS. If you have a hi-fi system that is more than 5 years old your new phone or tablet may not run the app and the manufacturer will not support with updates the interface for discontinued products. We need a feature like Windows has to run the application in compatibility mode.
I mirror my iPhone’s or iPad’s screen onto my smart tv. No AppleTV needed. Just have them both on the same wi-fi network. My iPad controls my Roon endpoint on my stereos. My iPhone or iPad can also send cd quality Apple Music to my stereo. So I can see whatever is showing on my iPad on my tv; That can be album art, lyrics, credits, whatever! The iPad in particular, fills up my tv screen with a beautiful mirror of my Roon screen.
Did some test here with Qobuz from an iPhone airplayed to an Apple TV (old model with optical out) to a mojo 2 Dac and switching from MP3 320 kbps to 16/44 in the Qobuz app it is a very big step up in soundstage as it should be. Then using Qobuz directly in a streamer ( Primare SC15) 24-96… is about the same as airplay (using Wisa and Buchardt A10) here again going from MP3 to 24-96 in Qobuz app/ airplay is very clear step up. That means that in my A10 I don’t hear much difference between 24-96 and 16/44 but instant difference with MP3 320 (that should be the same as AAC) and for me it means that airplay can be 16/44 with Qobuz from an IPhone and apple tv
Hey John, Read your review on the new Schiit Saga 2 preamp / headphone amp. I’m leaning towards the Schiit as I already have a WiiM mini and stand alone Dac. Any thoughts?
Thank you for another great video John; this subject gets my mind humming. My personal conclusion is that touch screens, and smallish screens on low profile hifi gear, is an aesthetic plus that lifts an amp/streamer to a more luxury level and makes an item often a better interior design choice. This is true even if you can’t read it or touch it from the listening position.
One of the reasons touchscreens are so popular is they are very cheap to buy due to the popularity of phones and tablets. It could well cost more to have a retro type display, buttons and dials or a solid front with no screen at all. For example it wouldn’t surprise me if Marantz’s small port hole display costs as much to implement as a 7” touch screen. A touchscreen can also save money on having to include a remote control, and allows the device to remain fully functional without an app or tv. People have already complained about plastic buttons or dials that don’t feel a certain way when rotated so this is the next step. I would go with both tv and touchscreen options for this reason.
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My case is very specific. When being such device (Streamer or Future-Fi Amp) I'd definitely go with a device that I Can use without a smartphone or a tablet in my network. The reason being that I try to avoid using a smartphone at home - it is too distracting. I can imagine myself taking my phone to put up an album or a song and get drowned in social media and other time-stealing apps. My current set up for streaming consists of an Advance Paris Amplifier which is connected to my AppleTV and Samsung TV via Toslink - serves the purpose just fine and is not distracting by any means.
You have answered the question I've been trying to solve for years! I don't have roon yet, but to split the visual display to the TV and audio directly to the DAC is the way to go for sure. I use Jriver and it has a Chromecast stream button but the audio signal is then compromised? Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the hifi industry, hopefully manufactures will take note!
I think a touch screen simplifies the setup of the device. And since it’s already there it can be used for useful things such as volume meters. Having the playlist information on TV would be nice, but too much work in my case
Can't agree more, how can you see anything from the sofa? But, in 1976, none of my parents hifi gear had a remote. So, the gear, (except the loudspeakers) was near the listening position. This is how I have it now, in 2024 (btw, I still use the same Kenwood KR 4600 receiver with no remote and I have it near me). I stream with a tablet or a phone near me, and my cd player is near me. A normal person can see everything at this distance, but my presbyopia makes me have my glasses near me...😂😂😂
Would love the flexibility of all three. I think having a little screen on a streamer to display album art and titles is super neat. That's some audiophile catnip, because it looks cool but isn't practical. However I want it there. An HDMI out for video only to a larger display would be a killer feature, but an app to mirror the streamers screen to your phone or tablet should be an absolute must for any product.
I have a DMP-A6/RME ADI-2 setup on my desk which allows me to have an headphone session without turning the PC on. Given the weather we get here in SW France during the summer months, not having the PC pumping out 300w of heat is a blessing. I rarely use my main hifi these days which is an Arcam A38 connected to a Teufel Connector into some 726 Focal speakers.
I noticed that no one talks about using a Mac Mini as their streamer for Apple music. I get the tv for now playing, I can’t use the IPad with the remote app to browse and play music from the listening seat. I can use hdmi or usb with a DAC of choice. If I use my 2012 Mac mini optical is also a choice as the headphones port doubles. 🤷🏾♂️🤔
Do not have an understanding for the touch screen on the streaming elecctronics. I am running a streaming service on the iphone or my sony DAP running android. My streaming device, in my case its the Brooklyn Bridge, is 8 feet away while the mobile device is in my hand. Thank your for posting.
I agree with you that these tiny touch screens don't make much sense. On the other hand, I don't like to keep my TV on when listening to music. So the best approach, in my mind is that those vendors, eg wiim, bluesound, etc, provide a Now Playing mode with big album cover and even bigger fonts for song, artist, album so you can use any dumb tablet to show this. As a bluesound node user, I'm lacking this feature hence I wrote an android app that does exactly that, using their api. It even dims the screen after certain time of no music playing. Problem solved.
Ipad - I think I've used the touchscreen once on my Rose RS130, when I set it up, because for some reason, the Rose app has limited set-up capability. I cleaned off the fingerprints, another minus for touchscreen displays in my opinion, set it up on Roon, which also enables me to turn the device on and off from my sofa and have not used it since. It's quite nice having the large display to see whats going on, but more of a conversation piece than anything else, if I'm being honest and nowhere near as good as the 13" screen on my Ipad.
Projector and a bit of IPhone for control! I stream using Tidal via Plex on my Wimius Projector for Video and then Bluetooth from the Projector to the Wiim Pro Plus for Audio using Bluetooth 😱😳🫣🤭. So I then tried using the Projector to do the Video alone and then connected the WiiM to Tidal Connect for Hi-Fi audio and to my surprise found it difficult to hear much difference 😳👂. They both sound very good. I wondered about this topic myself when I used my IPhone alone to control the WiiM Pro Plus and thought-what’s the point of a touch screen when you can do everything from your comfy chair? I would have to add that I now just accept it as two different experiences- Audio alone for a sort of audio purist listening experience and with video for a sort of lighter entertainment experience(both very enjoyable).
Point taken! With my "old" system with a Node connect to NAD D3020 I sitt where I like and handle it all with my MB air/iPad mini/pixel 8a. What is the development going?
As a desktop user i preffer using i pad to handle now playing and audio outputs . and in the living room i use tv for all the stuf using plex media server .
No need for a touch screen - just take the info from my ipad which is either in my hand of or next to me. In fact when choosing a streamer I actively opted for one that doesn't have a screen at all.
Late to the comment party, here's my take on the screens. The reason I want a functional screen is I use music to disconnect from my other screens. I'm tired of my phone/tablet. I got back into vinyl for an analog experience and to just sit and listen to disconnect from any and all digital. As I expand my system into streaming/digital I still want the experience to have that disconnected experience. I can't disagree with your assessment of ergonomics, neither visual nor device height and I still want phone connectivity for the potential functionality. But, again, if I can get to my playlists or whatever I want to listen to and put the phone down for a bit my life will be better for it. I agree with the TV points, mostly. It is yet another screen I would like to disconnect from, but that aside. Unfortunately Tidal was just removed from my Samsung TV, but there are other options. And, the Arc HDMI option is fantastic allowing the TV and consoles attached to the TC to run sound through one cable, fantastic! Devices with this particular HDMI connectivity are rare. It's pretty much the WiiM and the Bluesound in this price category isn't it? Annoyingly if Cambridge Audio had included HDMI arc in the CXN 100 I would be done. Alas no, the search for a streamer and a DAC continue. Trying to patiently wait for how Bluesound will finally update the Node and react to WiiM...
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I'll take a better volume knob above all other front panel features
You get it 👍
Absolutely G-D right.
You would think that after all the decades of bitching about crappy volume knob feel manufacturer's would have gotten the hint by now. Nope, we get ultra expensive gear with a $5 knob/pot.
Yeh, a good feeling volume knob would be much better
how is this any different from a laptop into a Focusrite DAC (with a better volume knob) balanced out to a good balanced in amp?
I realize I am probably in the minority. But I actually go out of my way to avoid products with touchscreens. For one I don't wish to be in front of them to utilize it. And two its just one thing that will limit the life of the product. As usually screens dim or go out before anything else does. That and over time the screens lose resolution or brightness compared to new products and it really dates the unit.
Agree 100%. They also die when the inverter goes.
I think you, and I lol, will soon be in the majority. I will not buy or at least not care about touch screens.
Touch screens at a 90° angles below hip height is also awkward as hell
I agree entirely.
All screens degrade, that has nothing to do with touch and repair may be $10 more at most.
I don't care for touch but it won't stop me from buying a device as long as there is another way to get to the functions.
As a matter of fact I don't care about screens on consumer audio gear in general.
I would assert that the tiny touch screens are intended for near field/desktop listener who would be within arm's reach of the screen from their listening position. This isn't across the spectrum of devices obviously but for a number of the smaller 2 channel models I would think this could be a common application for the unit. Small apartments, dorm rooms, second homes or even work spaces at a regular desktop. A fun video thanks John.
HDMI out is the future! Hands down, having the now playing on my tv is the whole reason I use spotify app on my tv when streaming, however I get better sound when using airplay directly to my amp. I don’t really care about a screen as such on any component, however the only thing I like having is being able to see the volume number on my amp, which my partner also agrees with!
Better sound using airplay to amp compared to spotify connect to WiiM?
You switch on your TV only to listen to music?!?
@@christiankogler6547sure - why not. Btw: cocktail x45 had hdmi out years ago!
Most of the audiophiles I know use either their phone, or, better yet, a stand alone iPad for a visual display. It is my opinion visual displays on streaming devices are marketing gimmicks, and add additional cost to the device!
this...using my iPad sitting on my comfy couch. am I really suppose to get up and stare at the screen or physically change the inputs through my fingers...
I have a tdai 1120, only a very basic monochromatic screen.
Agree
But a stand alone iPad doesn't add additional cost?
Exactly, use my iPad or phone and turnoff screen on my streamer
"iPad", but "it's complicated" might be the best answer.
The control I use multiple times daily is the WiiM Remote where I have the numbered buttons 1-4 programmed to radio station streams I listen to. In the kitchen when I listen to music instead, I pull out my iPad or phone to manage it. At my desk I use the TH-cam Music app on my iMac or sometimes the iPad or phone again.
On all my WiiM devices with touch sensitive controls I disable them in the app config. I don't use these touch controls if I can avoid it as they just get accidentally activated when I am fumbling with the device to unplug and replug it when I need to reboot it to solve stuck stream unresponsiveness.
I disabled all the buttons as well and use an iPad to control it. No problem with that setup to me.
When they down-sized albums to cd-sized boxes, then streaming without notes or artwork. We lost that physical connection to the music, artists and commentators on the old album covers.
Screens? Do we need them? In my case, no. I do own the WiiM Ultra, but not for the screen, I did not need it, nor really want it, but it does look cool. I primarily run a Volumio Rivo streamer, which I can view the album art on my TV via HDMI, then add a Roon Nucleus One, and the sound is incredible... But, I must say the Ultra sounds incredible via the Nucleus One too, and the WiiM software is second to none, and for that reason I think I will keep it. ApplePlay, not a feature I am interested in. I am waiting for WiiM to build a unit like the Rivo, with quality parts that takes the WiiM line to true audiophile levels. I think they can do just that, and hope they will. Just my .02
So the sound of the Wiim Ultra is not truly audiophile?
That Wiim Ultra has a very attractive price and special software for a reason. Their servers are controlled by the CCP and western devices are full of interesting data.
@@nick_yt23Interesting.
I think the Volumio Rivo and Primo are the most stylish of all. I was hoping they would have Amazon music by now but they told me it was in their plans sometime last year. I would be curious if you had to get an improved power source for your Rivo in that Alpha Audio seems to think that makes a lot of difference.
@@williamhicks2763 I am using the Farad Super 3 with the Rivo, and an Sbooster with my Roon Nucleus One, and it sounds incredibly good. Very audiophile.
I prefer to use an iPad to display and navigate songs. I use Roon which makes that easy. Really want Apple to support the same ‘Connect’ approach used by Spotify & Tidal. Apple is the worst to support lossless playback and needs to get in the game.
@@Terry-bs9jb all you need is an apple camera cable and a good DAC and you’ll get full hi res lossless on Apple including many digital masters. You will need to change the settings on your phone or iPad to get this. Superb quality.
It's correct because Apple says so. 😜. I totally agree with your point actually.
I LOVE the Wiim Ultra screen simply for the DB Meter function.... No it is nothing needed, but I love VU meters, have the Ultra connected to my vintage Marantz 2215b and the meter from Wiim puts smile on my face.... And that's what counts.....
I don’t like using my phone while listening to music on my Hi-Fi. I already spend half a day with it and it’s full of distractions. That’s why I prefer to stand up from my couch to the streamer and operate it using the touchscreen or the remote control. I’m used to it since I mostly listen to vinyl records and those require me to stand up either way so not a big deal.
I agree with you...why be on your phone during a listening session, you're short changing yourself! Disconnect for God's sake, lol.
This!
@@tima.478I agree! Yes it does sell units, though if you use the screen on the streamer, you are in essence interacting more with your hifi component directly. The convenience of streaming is what I believe got us into this mess of many using streaming more than physical media. It could be a pain if you are listening at one song at a time and switching constantly to another. But I suspect that most music/audio enthusiasts are full album listeners? So you would be getting up every 25 minutes maybe…that’s not bad at all.
'TV' for the living room, 'TOUCHSCREEN' for the head-fi on my desk
I agree, would like a screen on the streamer but it doesn't need to be touch, no so much for album art but stuff like displaying volume, "vu" meters, frequency graphs. Playback information and control is fine to be displayed on a phone or better yet a tablet and mirrored to the tv if applicable. The cost to add touch would be better used for software development and an hdmi out.
Yeah, came here to say that it sounds like John only considered living room hi-fi.
Agree... for many head-fiers on a desk setup, touch screens make a lot of sense.
Did I not make this *exact* point in the video: that touchscreens make sense on the desktop? Yes. Yes, I did. 😊
@@DarkoAudio yes you did John. All good.
Very good points, well argued!
I don't want my TV switched on. I feel like I spend too much time on screens as it is. However, when streaming from my iPhone to my amplifier, headphones, etc., I LOVE that my Apple Watch displays the album art, track title, artist and track progress. I can - and frequently do - adjust the volume using the digital crown. All I need to do is lift my wrist momentarily and don't even need to reach that bit further, or have to look for my phone.
It's odd that the iPad can't be controlled by the Apple Remote app. I don't have an iPad to test, but I fairly often do control Apple Music playing on my MacBook Pro using the Remote app - including browsing my music library and choosing different music to play.
So for me the only downside is the loss-ey streaming of AirPlay, here's hoping for AirPlay 3!
I "settled" on the Lyngdorf tdai-1120. High pass and low pass crossovers, with Room Perfect. I'm set.
Take note, Wiim.
Wow how much did that cost?
@@CaBdosdos10x the cost of Wiim
@@yetimtbfreaktrue, but it is an amplifier as well
I completely agree! I have no use for a touchscreen on a streaming amplifier or DAC! I just want to start music on my iPhone and then send it to the various AirPlay receivers around my house. If the receiver can display album artwork that is a bonus, but not necessary.
I certainly agree that having a touchscreen on a streamer is basically audiophile catnip, and in the real world, for most people, it makes very little sense apart from showing off to friends. I currently run two streamers, which I run with two tablets (one upstairs and one downstairs); tablets are much bigger, with better touchscreens, and are far more accessible when I am sitting listening to music.
I can understand your logic for thinking touchscreens are really better suited to desktop use. But I have a counter-argument to that. In my own opinion (and I do it this way in my own second system) which is a desktop job, my main interface is my laptop. And it's great. The interface of Tidal on my laptop is better than any app version, so I don't really see the need for a dedicated streamer. In my case I have a Quad Vena II DAC/amp which has a USB B input. I love having a physical volume knob too so I can quickly reach for the volume without first clicking, swiping or unlocking anything. And I also note that my PC as a streamer has never crashed and very very rarely loses wifi signal. This has not been my experience with every streamer I have bought, including my current Wiim Pro.
I have been thinking along similar lines to you though regarding my main system where I sit on a couch 3-4 metres away from my streamer. Although I have an Apple TV, I agree that the Tidal interface is a bit rudimentary. So I have been considering buying a mini PC, sending HDMI video output to the TV and at the same time sending audio over USB to my DAC/amp. But then I need a wireless mouse/keyboard to control it from a distance.
So there aren't really too many streamers that nail this yet are there. And I think you point to what the market is asking for: a streamer (no screen necessary) with an HDMI output in 16:9 landscape aspect ratio, and a nice simple remote to click through the options visible on your TV.
As always, great video John and thank you too for your meticulous research that's behind the scenes of your videos.
I have Roon installed on an old laptop as an end point not main server. attach a USB dac of your choice for audio and HDMI out to my TV for the now playing screen
John, you made a clear point in your discussion : if you have a streaming device on your workstation, then a screen has utility, such as a FIIO R9. However if your amp/streamer sits on a rack or underneath your tv, the remote app is the way to go and no need for a touchscreen.
I think an HDMI output would be the best fit - people can increase/decrease screen to their preference as essentially most screens are just too small on hifi equipment. My concern on streamers in general is they are essentially part hifi, part hi tech. How many years of updates/support are offered before their OS (Android or otherwise) for their touchscreen is either a security risk on the home network or unable to receive streams as no longer supported/compatible with newer phones, etc. My old Marantz CD7300 is around 20 years old but still works. No updates/support required, just a reasonably high quality hifi component - add a CD and it plays. I don't think we'll be saying the same for streamers over the same period - planned obsolescence.
Darko, this is when you are at your best--not splitting hairs about sound quality differences between electronics, but talking about the big picture of what it takes to get a great overall experience actually using and living with your audio system and room
Agree that touchscreen on streamer can be replaced by APP. But touchscreen is still good as I prefer all devices should be standalone (not dependent to APP) when needed.
For the living room, I own a "traditional" setup of passive speakers and amp (and radio and cd player and turntable) and have been streaming from my phone via rca.
I have been thinking of a different setup for a long time, one that should also include streaming, preferably an all in one (I know, I know) but nothing seemed "ok" enough; a streaming amp came into the discussion to replace the one I have, but I was never quite happy about this solution; most probably because 1. it seems like the kind of solution that would become obsolete rather quickly and 2. the little screen makes no sense to me either. Of course, a streaming amp without a display would solve one of two problems, but not both.
I must admit that streaming through a smart tv was never in my plans, since a tv was never in my plans; but after watching enough Darko videos (at least for now) I am convinced that it is a pretty darn good solution - big screen, remote, also can use the phone as a remote (I think) if in a different room (for any reason), streaming apps should be up to date at all times and/or easier to update than the ones inside a streaming amp (I think)...
I for one, was disappointed that the Wiim Ultra’s HDMI was audio only. I have an iPad in my office that is connected to a TV, so often run it with the Wiim application cover art. Would like Wiim to add a video HDMI for the option in my living room. I use the touch screen in my office on the Ultra, so both is my response.
My setup is all around Roon and I use my smartphone to select songs/playlists/radio. No need for a screen or even "Touchscreen" on my streamer (sonore opticalRendu). My preamp shows the input and volume level, my DAC shows the bitrate (both PS Audio). That's it. I used to think, that having a large screen is the holy grail, but i have learned from my mistakes. As you pointed out, when your audio rack compatible devices are sitting a few meters away, it is hard to read and therfore useless. I am now in love with my PS Audio gear, because they show perfectly the minimalistic information I want them to show (volume level, bitrate).
TV. I am pretty anti-touchscreen. I want a traditional-looking device with buttons and knobs. Plus, I use ROON on mostly my laptop but sometimes my tablet or phone.
Great article. I have KEF LS50W2, Samsung Frame TV on the wall and Samsung phone. I start Spotify connect in the KEF app which I control from my Samsung phone (the app is always open on the phone), I then start Spotify connect app on the TV and ensure that Spotify is still using the speakers built in Spotify connect, I mute the TV. All three sync and I get the art, track info etc visually on the TV. A slight lag on the TV but no issue. I cant control Spotify through the TV remote ie to change the track playing without the source reverting to the TV but I can move around to show the track playing artwork or the album/playlist tracklist. If I want to use the TV as control but with lower res, I select the TV output to the KEFs
My NAD M10V2 also shows cover art on the TV😌
Great analysis!
I find the display on my NAD M33 more pretty than useful. That's why I placed a Ropiee Display on top of the M33 for better visibility of album art and metadata. I would have loved to use my TV for this, but it's an OLED and the danger of burn-in is real.
I find a large iPad in portrait mode on stand sitting on the side table to be ideal.
Regarding apps, I find it annoying that the BluOS app doesn't replicate ALL settings of the M33's screen, so sometimes I do have to crouch down on the floor.
I think manufactures will continue with the displays because it sells and doesn't cost them much.
iPad - I have a Mac BookAir (Intel = old+cheap) connected to my dac that runs Audirvana to stream local files and also stuff from Qobuz. I control it from my couch using and iPad mini that allows me to see album art and extra content. I'm a happy bunny. FYI, none of my hifi gear has a screen and I actually enjoy moving around to select and cue vinyl. So yeah, not so much future-fi as retro-faff. But I repeat, I'm a happy bunny.
Love the content, I am a subscriber and I have a I pad, I have apple app , iTunes, what HiFi Dac streamer would you suggest if I’m using my Samsung TV. If that makes any sense? Beginner.
“Audiophile catnip” 😂 I love the new white wall btw
I recently set up a 5.1.2 Dolby Atmos system with a Denon AVR-4800H and an Apple TV. I had no idea lossless Dolby Atmos playback was available through Apple Music on the Apple TV. It’s totally changed my listening habits. My 77” TV is the only screen I need.
Warning: Super long response ;-) --- I didn't hear Darko present a compelling reason for - NOT - having a touchscreen. And too much about Apple Music and vertical vs horizontal orientation. I don't subscribe to Apple Music and personally prefer a horizontal screen. But this really is irrelevant to the topic of touchscreens in general as they "satisfy market demand". He said so himself. Yes, people want them and why not? Of course it helps sell units. It covers all use cases.... the desktop user, the couch potato sitting 12-feet away, and anyone seeking some eye candy. Why do people buy McIntosh? I suspect it's partially for the blue meter eye candy.... not that I'm a fan.
If you're going to take up front panel real estate with a LCD screen anyway, why not make it a touchscreen? It makes perfect sense for feature rich products (like the Eversolo line) with so many configuration and preference settings. The Menu layering is intuitive and doesn't even require a user manual. The alternative would be knobs or switches and a dizzying sequence of toggles, presses , pulls, twists and turns. Remember the yank and crank happy BMW iDrive infotainment controller knob? Even BMW graduated to touchscreens in their latest vehicles.
For initial setup and a multitude of preferences it's real easy using the touchscreen vs yanking on buttons and knobs. Which reminds me, I'm going to change my DAC setting to one of the slow rolloff choices and I might even play with the Eversolo EQ and DSP. Try that with a couple buttons. Oh I did, and it was a royal PITA on the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
I prefer the hdmi to view it in the TV. I also like you love my sofa 🤩
The Airplay 2 Apple Music app does not downsample to airplay 2 receiving devices when you have dolby atmos disabled, sound check disabled, AND the track must not be downloaded. This is a bug in the current Apple Music app because it is updated to support new functionality of airplay which have not been enable on even the iOS 18 developer betas yet, but will be enabled by the public stable iOS 18 release. What is happening is that the Apple Music and Tidal app notice that the output device is airplay and attempts to send the atmos file to the airplay device, but airplay iOS stops this before its sent and downsamples it to aac 256kbps and sends it to the airplay 2 receiver as dolby Atmos over airplay is not supported iOS side, and receiving device side yet. the sound check bug is another manifestation of this issue, as there is a new implementation to identify source because of the addition of atmos support. Please understand that this is not a misrepresentation of the capabilities of Airplay on Apple's part, but a "version" mismatch bug caused by the feature updates to the airplay protocol. In fact you can test this by streaming Apple Music from an apple device that supports airplay 2 but not Spatial Audio. you will always get cd quality. Also I read your article, and there is a portion of the table that has HomePods listed as a receiving device, HomePods and Apple TVs work differently as they are native Apple Music players, and can stream Apple Music directly, so dont mix the 2, as when you are streaming music, the moment you select it through airplay, it will switch to player mode and stream the song directly, your phone can disconnect from the internet and it will still play all songs in queue, whereas with airplay 2 speakers, the song will only play till the last data buffer was sent.
If you're watching a screen for details of ... cover art, level, metadata etc. - you're not listening.
Switch all the lights off, or dim them, and listen in the dark or semi-darkness. Suppress one of your senses, and the others perk up, including your hearing.
I don't need a Now Playing, because I KNOW WHAT I'M LISTENING TO. I remember selecting it shortly before listening to it, and I know the music. Why would I need a display of it?
Thanks for the visibility on this issue. It's a major consideration for manufacturers. I think the question is a bit leading from your end, and I'd like to offer a different framing. TV, Integrated touch screen, App feedback, better sound and enclosure quality/finishes. This is the reality of the choices at a high level, and there's financial sliders to optimize/address each one. By far the most efficient compromise is the app feedback + better sound for example.
But note that the sound is still being comprised.
For sofa listening I'd much rather use an iPad or iPhone to remotely control my Roon server, with the addition of using the TV:Remote app for the extra visual. The only need for an on-board screen on a device would be if you're a desktop only user. I would much rather companies invest in the quality of the streamer internals than adding a touch screen.
I wonder why no manufacturer has built a product that does what eversolo do, put the screen of the streamer on your phone but yet actually do not put any physical screen on the device itself. Some kind of a virtual/remote screen. You can still install android apps like Apple Music on the device itself, control it by using your phone, but the sound signal would play natively on the device.
I use the A6 in my home studio connected to powered monitors and it's great for the desk. In my main system I have an Auralic Aries G2.2. I love seeing the cover art, that is about all I use the screen for. I'd love a HDMI out just for it to mirror the screen or show album art. Currently on top of my hifi rack, I have a 24" Dell touchscreen. Visitors LOVE it as they can select music and so on via that. As I am moving, I am going to add a TV in between for cover art.
But 100% for a HDMI out. "Touchscreen" for the desktops though
I would never use a screen as I would use a tablet but I would love one for various UV meter settings.
A hidden Raspberry pi with a dac to my amp. I can play lossless hires from all popular services in Addition to Spotify connect. All this controlled from whatever whatever client you like. A nice iPad or my phone. This is the perfect ui. I just select what speakers I want to play from the client
‘TV’ for sure. The iPhone app with the TV would be the best alternative. For speakers even … my 50” Samsung TV has amazing sound but I can also access a pair of Apple HomePod minis which have a bit better base when needed.
Great channel John!
My dream streamer would be a unit with nativ lossless Apple Music. Bit perfect output DAC and visuals to TV with full featured remote app
Apple needs to do Apple Music Connect desperately. Maybe it’s time there’s industry standard for this as everyone seems to do it differently.
Have an Eversolo DMP A-6 because of the hype. Not disappointed in the product at all, but found the interface clunky (maybe because it's Android, and I'm an Apple guy) Upgraded to the Cambridge EVO 150.Don't miss the touchscreen whatsoever. I do like to use all three - controls on unit, iPad, iPhone, and I use the TV Remote app when I want to see the cover art on my TV screen. The touchscreen is exactly as you say - catnip - so are the VU meters. They're cool to look at for a little while, then the novelty wears off, and I just want the cover art. Great points, and another great video!
TV for sure. And, specifically for Apple Music -- Apple could own this space if they wanted to, they just don't appear to care much. The Apple TV is practically the perfect form-factor for a set-top streamer. It has HDMI out. It has an interface built for large screens (TVs and Monitors), it has an easy to use remote, as well as full smart-phone access via Apple's remote app in iOS. They'd only need to change the internals a bit to accommodate full bit-perfect, hi-res audio over HDMI (the iPad already does this using a $39 dongle). They could add a USB-C output (and/or a second HDMI output) so you could split the un-touched audio to your dac of choice, while still sending the video output to a monitor or TV. And they could add a simple toggle in the Apple music app that could toggle between sending audio over HDMI vs USB-C so one could easily switch back and forth between the two options. (I'm sure that same toggle could be made accessible to other streaming apps like Tidal, Amazon HD, etc -- they'd just have to add the support to their respective apps).
Honestly, this whole streamer dac environment is frustrating AF. I think Wiim, Fiio, and EverSolo get the closest but, for all the reasons you mention, still don't provide as seamless an experience as we COULD have from the Apple TV.
Wow. I'm happy all I have is an old NAD amp and vintage CD player.
My solution is to use a mini PC. There are mutiple benefits, esp if you use roon. Mini PC is both Roon Server and Roon Player. I can sit on my couch and control Roon with a wireless mouse/keyboard. View everything on the TV and audio going from mini PC to roon ready device (Wiim Pro in my case). Without Roon, Im sure I can make the mini PC work simply as my streamer (tidal, spotify, etc..) and still viewon TV. This is a way cheaper solution than ROON hardware and it also functions as a PC that I can use on my TV for any other PC purpose.
I’m definitely in the iPad camp for remote UI control. I’d rather manufacturers put more effort into making their displays and symbology more legible from a distance than having a touch screen.
Now if only someone invented a gadget to remotely control a device. Maybe call it a remote control ...
We have two things to consider here - operation and display. Obviously you want to operate your device from where you sit and listen, so any controls on a device beyond an on/off switch only make sense as you say with a device on your desktop. The display can either be big and far away (TV ...) or close and smaller (but my eyes age ...)
I think if they want to have a flashy feature to show for marketing make the display a barebones tablet that can be removed from the unit and serve as a remote. Drop it back on the device for charging and storage. Only needs a relatively low bandwith connection, as it doesn't handle much data.
My solution was to stream from Roon Rock to Topping E70 Velvet to Sonos and have cover art on Sony TV via Apple TV: Remote Roon extension. The Sony TV screen is better than the Roon Chromecast screen, as the screen is constantly changing, so no burn-ins are possible. This is my perfect setup for now. And, of course, I never need tiny screens on streamers or DACs. The TV screen is more than enough-it's big and beautiful-this is what I need for my favorite music.
I'm surprised you seem to have missed the fact that Sonos now support lossless streaming from Apple Music. Previously I was using an iPad Air connected via USB DAC to give me lossless streaming. This works very well but is not great having the cable. I've never bought into Sonos before but on the news of the lossless support went out and bought a Sonos Port to connect to existing amplifier. Works a treat. I did think about getting the Sonos Amp but felt the port more versatile, it's a shame the amp doesn't have pre out for best of both. Grab a port and give it a go :)
Why don't manufacturers supply a smart phone type remote control, instead of having to use your phone..
Smart phones are pretty cheap so supplying a dedicated device would be nice, even have a wireless charger too, so you can leave it on the coffee table or next too the system , I'm not a big fan of having to use my phone for these things all the time..
Yes so leave the unit blank ,even hidden away, and have the dedicated touch screen in your hand..
Cheers 👍
Ive got 2 hifi setups at home and both are computer based. A mac mini hooked up to a TV in the loungeroom, with a wireless keyboard and mouse. And a macbook pro with external monitor on a desk in my studio listening in nearfield. Being able to run Dirac live, TV streaming apps, music streaming apps, youtube, soundcloud, plex etc is way more flexible than a streamer i think....
I like your video production =) Always nice music.
I am using a setup like you, but with some other components: I use a Mi Box connected to my TV and I use the Toslink output on the Mi box to connect to my DAC. So no resampling or splitter needed. I can use the android apps installed on the box for listening to music. Have the album art on screen and music to my DAC. Use a remote or use Spotify connect. A very simple solution (for the non Apple fans like I am).
Android TV box, usb audio player pro, TV size "now playing" etc, hi res bit perfect etc. Remote control , job done 👍
my setup is laptop connected to Mission 778X via usb, an HDMI cable from laptop to TV which then mirrors what's on laptop screen even with it closed as long as i don't shut it down & instead put it in sleep mode, i control the laptop from my listening position using a cheap as chips wireless handheld keyboard with track pad & can stream my chosen music app & anything else such as watching your channel. simple & effective.
I regret buying an Oled tv because they recommend not projecting still pictures (as with 'now playing'). I should have followed my first idea of getting "The Frame". You effectively talked me out of wanting a streamer with a screen as I hate crouching and kneeling in front of my gear when using it. Great video, great comment.
While I do wish the made for desktop Naim Uniti Atom Headphone Edition had touch controls I generally agree.
I wish the Marantz 40 had the same feature for HDMI out as the 70.
That said, consider that the touch forward feature set may be about multi-member households. It’s going to be much easier for a non audiophile to hit a couple buttons on a screen than to get them to download an app and configure it and use it to control the stereo. Most people form a task, then pick the tool. Rewiring the tool to use is an uphill battle. Why do I have to use my phone to play the stereo? Just make
The stereo more like the phone.
Apple's way of doing things is inferior. I have the Wiim Ultra and I love everything about it. I do not use the touch screen functions, but I like being able to glance over to see what is playing. It is very easy to control with the Wiim app, Tidal connect, Spotify connect or Alexacast. I replaced a Wiim Pro Plus with the Ultra in my office setup. The Ultra is now my streamer, dac, headphone amp and preamp. It is an awesome device.
What I recently realised that I want to listen to my music, and it sound as good as it can for my budget.
I’m up for changing components out to do this upgrade over time.
I listen to CDs, LPs, approx 25% of the time - as my wife says ‘because your on the spectrum’ so love the progress of do so. I am now sitting in a chair with the music.
I listen to streaming playlists appprox 50% of the time, while cooking, having dinner, entertaining etc.
25% of the time I sit and listen via streaming (looking for new music) so I flicking through songs on my ipad, never my phone.
Conclusion - the screens on the streamer are a bit of a gimmick, for me only.
Great John, i was waiting so long for this topic... For sure i think, the streaming devices would need an Hdmi output. To display the "now playing" info on a TV and also run the streaming app like tidal via remote.
Always a treat listening to you talk about anything, even touch screen. If a screen is to small to see, keep the device clean.
Thanks John, you've just hit on the very gripe I've always had with touchscreens on hifi equipment,,,
Look nice but who wants dodgy knees or a bad back to engage with them .
Install every piece of front end hardware with the ability to stream now playing to your TV.
Great review.
Mark.
I guess my setup is pretty different than what a typical audiophile would have. When I'm sitting on the couch, I'm listening to two Echo 4th gen devices paired with a Amazon 4k fire stick. I ditched Spotify for Amazon Music to be able to play cd quality streams from my phone to the paired echos and onto my screen. Not an audiophile sound but I'm easy to please, although the Amazon echosystem has its issues.
I have a set of Edifiers R1280t that I use on my desk along with a dozen of headphones and an ifi zen dac v2, and a fiio k5 pro ess, paired with a Wiim pro. I use Roon when I'm on my desk and have an ultrawide screen.
The answer is TV... it's all about the 10 foot interface! I want my music interface on my TV... now playing, catalog selection, lyrics, settings, bitstream information, output and speaker selection... the whole 9 yards. The streamer devices we're using as our preamps already have all these features packaged in a single phone app for us - like the Wiim home app... but here's the kicker - they don't make an AppleTV version of the Wiim home app! Or a WebOS version of the app for LG televisions... or a Tizen version for Samsung TV's... I dont want to have to plunk around on my phone in my living room when I'm sitting down to listen to music. I wanna use my remote and HDTV! Just give me a full featured version of the Wiim Home app for AppleTV or WebOS, and I'll give you all my money!
Hi John I am using an iPad as a streamer playing tidal or Apple Music or dsd through the onkyo app through USB ==> teak ud501 dac . . There is a way to control the iPad with an iPhone. Settings / accessibility / control nearby devices. Control is basic like back fwd play and volume, not ideal but good enough not to stand up. If I need more control I go wireless through an airport 1 as per brother Thomas analysis. By the way what is you opinion of the streaming audio quality between an iPad / wiim ultra / eversolo a6? Is it worth the upgrade?
I got the Eversolo A8 last year, after waiting years for a self-contained, mass-market option. I'd attempted to create a system with a Pi and DAC and a five-inch touchscreen, but the (Kodi) touch-specific interface was underwhelming. My audio system is connected to a 4K front projector and an 83" cinemascope screen. I have no interest in firing up a projector to listen to my music library. In addition to the touchscreen, I can control playback on the A8 with my universal infrared remote. I also don't use a mobile phone, and my iPad and Android tablets get limited use, and I don't want to have to take either to my rooms upstairs. The self-contained music streamer is exactly what I needed. This just seems like something that should have existed ten years ago, for slightly more than the cost of a desktop mini pc ...
My order of use is: 1. TV, 2. iPad, 3. Phone. I recently bought the WiiM Amp based on your review, and I love that it has no display.
I have NAD C658. If I connect my Apple TV to the MDC HDMI unit of my NAD and then HDMI output to my TV, will NAD process and play the audio and my TV display album and browser info?
I prefer to use a monitor (I have used a TV as a monitor) and it is a touch screen under Android or from a desktop computer or laptop. A TV or computer monitor can be very inexpensive but is another item to plug in. It depends how you control it. Few TV are touch screen and not all can be controlled by a keyboard and touch pad or mouse.
I looked into using an Android tablet or iPad to control streaming from the system's app. I was even given an iPad for testing but it is iOS 9 (old I guess) and the app only supports iOS 14 and more recent. Conversely when I got a new Android phone because my old phone is stuck on Android 8 some apps would not install saying the app was too old for the OS.
If you have a hi-fi system that is more than 5 years old your new phone or tablet may not run the app and the manufacturer will not support with updates the interface for discontinued products. We need a feature like Windows has to run the application in compatibility mode.
I mirror my iPhone’s or iPad’s screen onto my smart tv. No AppleTV needed. Just have them both on the same wi-fi network. My iPad controls my Roon endpoint on my stereos. My iPhone or iPad can also send cd quality Apple Music to my stereo. So I can see whatever is showing on my iPad on my tv; That can be album art, lyrics, credits, whatever! The iPad in particular, fills up my tv screen with a beautiful mirror of my Roon screen.
Did some test here with Qobuz from an iPhone airplayed to an Apple TV (old model with optical out) to a mojo 2 Dac and switching from MP3 320 kbps to 16/44 in the Qobuz app it is a very big step up in soundstage as it should be. Then using Qobuz directly in a streamer ( Primare SC15) 24-96… is about the same as airplay (using Wisa and Buchardt A10) here again going from MP3 to 24-96 in Qobuz app/ airplay is very clear step up. That means that in my A10 I don’t hear much difference between 24-96 and 16/44 but instant difference with MP3 320 (that should be the same as AAC) and for me it means that airplay can be 16/44 with Qobuz from an IPhone and apple tv
Hey John, Read your review on the new Schiit Saga 2 preamp / headphone amp. I’m leaning towards the Schiit as I already have a WiiM mini and stand alone Dac. Any thoughts?
Thank you for another great video John; this subject gets my mind humming. My personal conclusion is that touch screens, and smallish screens on low profile hifi gear, is an aesthetic plus that lifts an amp/streamer to a more luxury level and makes an item often a better interior design choice. This is true even if you can’t read it or touch it from the listening position.
I’ve always wanted Bluesound with native streaming and a HDMI for video only.
One of the reasons touchscreens are so popular is they are very cheap to buy due to the popularity of phones and tablets. It could well cost more to have a retro type display, buttons and dials or a solid front with no screen at all. For example it wouldn’t surprise me if Marantz’s small port hole display costs as much to implement as a 7” touch screen.
A touchscreen can also save money on having to include a remote control, and allows the device to remain fully functional without an app or tv. People have already complained about plastic buttons or dials that don’t feel a certain way when rotated so this is the next step. I would go with both tv and touchscreen options for this reason.
My case is very specific. When being such device (Streamer or Future-Fi Amp) I'd definitely go with a device that I Can use without a smartphone or a tablet in my network. The reason being that I try to avoid using a smartphone at home - it is too distracting. I can imagine myself taking my phone to put up an album or a song and get drowned in social media and other time-stealing apps. My current set up for streaming consists of an Advance Paris Amplifier which is connected to my AppleTV and Samsung TV via Toslink - serves the purpose just fine and is not distracting by any means.
As a person with an amp from the 1970s, give me solid buttons and knobs.
You have answered the question I've been trying to solve for years! I don't have roon yet, but to split the visual display to the TV and audio directly to the DAC is the way to go for sure.
I use Jriver and it has a Chromecast stream button but the audio signal is then compromised?
Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the hifi industry, hopefully manufactures will take note!
10:46 "Hitting the Red Hot Chili Peppers button" 😂
I think a touch screen simplifies the setup of the device. And since it’s already there it can be used for useful things such as volume meters. Having the playlist information on TV would be nice, but too much work in my case
Can't agree more, how can you see anything from the sofa? But, in 1976, none of my parents hifi gear had a remote. So, the gear, (except the loudspeakers) was near the listening position. This is how I have it now, in 2024 (btw, I still use the same Kenwood KR 4600 receiver with no remote and I have it near me). I stream with a tablet or a phone near me, and my cd player is near me. A normal person can see everything at this distance, but my presbyopia makes me have my glasses near me...😂😂😂
Would love the flexibility of all three. I think having a little screen on a streamer to display album art and titles is super neat. That's some audiophile catnip, because it looks cool but isn't practical. However I want it there. An HDMI out for video only to a larger display would be a killer feature, but an app to mirror the streamers screen to your phone or tablet should be an absolute must for any product.
I use a 2015 laptop through a FIIO K7 with Tidal and it sounds great to me. What would a separate streamer add to the experience?
I have a DMP-A6/RME ADI-2 setup on my desk which allows me to have an headphone session without turning the PC on. Given the weather we get here in SW France during the summer months, not having the PC pumping out 300w of heat is a blessing. I rarely use my main hifi these days which is an Arcam A38 connected to a Teufel Connector into some 726 Focal speakers.
I noticed that no one talks about using a Mac Mini as their streamer for Apple music. I get the tv for now playing, I can’t use the IPad with the remote app to browse and play music from the listening seat. I can use hdmi or usb with a DAC of choice. If I use my 2012 Mac mini optical is also a choice as the headphones port doubles. 🤷🏾♂️🤔
Great video… but how the wood slats in the front wall affecting the acoustics of the room… looks beautiful too
Do not have an understanding for the touch screen on the streaming elecctronics. I am running a streaming service on the iphone or my sony DAP running android. My streaming device, in my case its the Brooklyn Bridge, is 8 feet away while the mobile device is in my hand. Thank your for posting.
I agree with you that these tiny touch screens don't make much sense. On the other hand, I don't like to keep my TV on when listening to music. So the best approach, in my mind is that those vendors, eg wiim, bluesound, etc, provide a Now Playing mode with big album cover and even bigger fonts for song, artist, album so you can use any dumb tablet to show this. As a bluesound node user, I'm lacking this feature hence I wrote an android app that does exactly that, using their api. It even dims the screen after certain time of no music playing. Problem solved.
how is this any different from a laptop into a Focusrite DAC (with a better volume knob) balanced out to a good balanced in amp?
Thank you for bringing this up. I hope WiiM stops using a touch screen and instead improves internal parts and software.
Ipad - I think I've used the touchscreen once on my Rose RS130, when I set it up, because for some reason, the Rose app has limited set-up capability. I cleaned off the fingerprints, another minus for touchscreen displays in my opinion, set it up on Roon, which also enables me to turn the device on and off from my sofa and have not used it since. It's quite nice having the large display to see whats going on, but more of a conversation piece than anything else, if I'm being honest and nowhere near as good as the 13" screen on my Ipad.
Funny. I have a 13inch Galaxy ultra tab and use Roon, but find myself drawn to the screen of the RS 130.
Projector and a bit of IPhone for control!
I stream using Tidal via Plex on my Wimius Projector for Video and then Bluetooth from the Projector to the Wiim Pro Plus for Audio using Bluetooth 😱😳🫣🤭.
So I then tried using the Projector to do the Video alone and then connected the WiiM to Tidal Connect for Hi-Fi audio and to my surprise found it difficult to hear much difference 😳👂. They both sound very good.
I wondered about this topic myself when I used my IPhone alone to control the WiiM Pro Plus and thought-what’s the point of a touch screen when you can do everything from your comfy chair?
I would have to add that I now just accept it as two different experiences- Audio alone for a sort of audio purist listening experience and with video for a sort of lighter entertainment experience(both very enjoyable).
The last thing i want is another screen in my life.
Lol 😂😂😂😂😂😂 nice one
Point taken! With my "old" system with a Node connect to NAD D3020 I sitt where I like and handle it all with my MB air/iPad mini/pixel 8a. What is the development going?
As a desktop user i preffer using i pad to handle now playing and audio outputs . and in the living room i use tv for all the stuf using plex media server .
No need for a touch screen - just take the info from my ipad which is either in my hand of or next to me. In fact when choosing a streamer I actively opted for one that doesn't have a screen at all.
Late to the comment party, here's my take on the screens. The reason I want a functional screen is I use music to disconnect from my other screens. I'm tired of my phone/tablet. I got back into vinyl for an analog experience and to just sit and listen to disconnect from any and all digital. As I expand my system into streaming/digital I still want the experience to have that disconnected experience. I can't disagree with your assessment of ergonomics, neither visual nor device height and I still want phone connectivity for the potential functionality. But, again, if I can get to my playlists or whatever I want to listen to and put the phone down for a bit my life will be better for it.
I agree with the TV points, mostly. It is yet another screen I would like to disconnect from, but that aside. Unfortunately Tidal was just removed from my Samsung TV, but there are other options. And, the Arc HDMI option is fantastic allowing the TV and consoles attached to the TC to run sound through one cable, fantastic! Devices with this particular HDMI connectivity are rare. It's pretty much the WiiM and the Bluesound in this price category isn't it? Annoyingly if Cambridge Audio had included HDMI arc in the CXN 100 I would be done. Alas no, the search for a streamer and a DAC continue. Trying to patiently wait for how Bluesound will finally update the Node and react to WiiM...
Replying to myself... Bluesound has made this more interesting now haven't they?