IPMS Judging: How they judge now and possible futures.

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 13 ม.ค. 2025

ความคิดเห็น • 28

  • @adrianavilches8851
    @adrianavilches8851 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I think it’s a magnificent idea that way everybody will get judged didn’t do so good on construction but you did very well on paint

  • @donaldbowen4583
    @donaldbowen4583 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Since the covid the modeling community has really grown.We need to keep this great hobby fun and challenging for everyone. The amps points style with judges' constructive comments allows everyone an opportunity to learn how to improve the quality of their builds and receive needed encouragement. Kit vs kit judging can happily exist in best of show or best of category's to include the traditional ipms style judging.

  • @beckersmodels
    @beckersmodels 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    I think the key objective of judging an entry at a scale modelling competition is - how close is this to the real thing? Look at Hasegawa sideboxart where they have pictures of the finished model, constructed perfectly, perfect paint finish. Does it look like the real thing on the front boxart or in the bazillions of reference photos available? Or does that same model completed with a variable/worn paint finish, chipping in the wingroot/propeller, some hydraulic/oil leaks and dirty non-shiny tyres look closer? What is a valid model representation?
    So the question really becomes, what is the competition trying to achieve? Is the focus on construction in IPMS judging a hangover from a time when modelling an aircraft did require a LOT of time, effort and skill in producing a cleanly finish model (think 1950s to 1980s standard of injection plastic modelling). And maybe what's happening here is that time has caught up and that that focus is being diluted since there's superior model kits (aka Tamiya) available where construction is relatively straightforward.
    Is there more than one hobby here? Maybe there's space for two or more types of categories in aircraft modelling - clean and real? I would add a third - stylistic/artistic for those who know its not real, but their personal intent is to want the finished model to look extremely interesting.
    Whatever keeps more people interested in the hobbies as technology, skills and ideas evolve and doesn't drive others away. There's room for everyone. That should be the key objective in holding competition events IMO.
    Great video Cameron, really enjoyed your presentation and your ability to drill down the judging points (and literally having a model to show them). Keep going! Cheers, Chris

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks. Great discussion points. Wonder how we could achieve all of this.

    • @ekspatriat
      @ekspatriat ปีที่แล้ว

      So an aircraft that had a swastika in real life should have one on the model? (I agree)

  • @Abbeville_Kid
    @Abbeville_Kid 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    From reading in forums, it’s looks to me that IPMS judges biggest complaint about changing the system is the extra time that it would take to judge. That’s an easy fix… just find new judges. If my company was changing the way things were done and I refused, I would be shown the door. They don’t have to be judges… adapt or die.

  • @ericeseman9922
    @ericeseman9922 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    I have judged and been judged under the current method for decades and I buy the logic. In my opinion basic building skills are paramount to a good model. Now I have thought that degree of difficulty should be a factor, however it is the end product that is being judged. When it comes to weathering, my concern is that accuracy keeps creeping into the discussion. Suggesting that an aircraft is too clean and would never look like that is an opinion. It had to roll out of the paint shop at some point. The idea that the builder would be required to prove that the subject looked a certain way at some point in its lifetime goes back to accuracy yet again. You cannot use accuracy as a judging criteria unless all the judges are complete subject matter experts of every subject they judge, and as much as you think you know, you don't know everything.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Right. Accuracy can be tough. What ever the builder is going after then has execution which can be judged. Could also push contestants to show their research.

  • @malaudisa
    @malaudisa 4 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Seems to me that AMPS has a more thorough approach, as build quality does not automatically disqualify entries from being awarded points for other aspects, like painting, weathering, and scope of effort. However, IPMS rules can allow for quicker judging since there is no further scoring of a subject that fails the construction criteria.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  4 หลายเดือนก่อน

      True. I find they can even out a bit because I have seen the debate go for a half an hour on whether an entry gets 1st or second

  • @wasrio1403
    @wasrio1403 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Sounds like the the key to winning is build a simple kit. The time envolved against building complex kit is weighted against it.

  • @iceaxeminiatures7694
    @iceaxeminiatures7694 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    So, I support going to a GSB style system because fundamentally, I think that sort of system promotes a much healthier relationship with the hobby than 123, and results in less drama and less unhealthy competitiveness.
    However, I also don't agree with the AMPS approach. I don't like point systems in general as I feel they can discourage creativity and encourage building to the rubric. Also, you can sometimes get weird results as an artifact of weighting. It would be hard to create a point system that works well across all the many different subjects, from figures to aircraft to sci-fi to automotive to armour (like... are we going to use the same point system for automotive as we do for figures?). I'm also concerned that complicated points systems that could cause logistical problems at large shows.
    I think the way it is done at figure shows is a much, much better approach than either IPMS or AMPS style. Some of the features are:
    - GSB, but without a points system -- the judges simply examine the piece and directly determine whether it is worthy of a gold, silver, or bronze.
    - Fewer categories than IPMS -- if you brought it over to IPMS, you could have like eight categories (ships, aircraft, armour, etc.) instead of hundreds
    - You are judged based only on your best work in a category. So, if I bring in four planes, I put them all next to each other on the table and the first thing the judges do is figure out which one of mine is the best and then they judge that. So, instead of getting a gold, two silvers and a bronze, I'll just get a gold for my best piece in that category.
    Also... I feel like feedback in competitions is kind of overrated. First, a lot of the time when someone asks for feedback what they are really asking for is why they didn't win so they can gripe about it. Second, if feedback is what you desire, you don't need to go to a competition for that -- you can always just show your model off to other people and ask for it.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Yeah, I have no idea how other categories would setup their rubric. The rubric would be setup based on what is in the handbook. It would just put point values in place of personal value level.

  • @claywilliams1698
    @claywilliams1698 3 ปีที่แล้ว +3

    Thanks for this, really. However, it sounds like a formula for appearing to evolve the judging more than actually evolving the judging. I think I speak for many modelers when I say the main issue for me is this: Does it look REAL? Real world aircraft aren't clean, certainly not combat aircraft. Pristine builds are not realistic looking builds. A clean depiction is, in my opinion, every bit as unrealistic as a wheel 0.27% out of alignment. Although I've never participated in an IPMS competition I've looked forward to doing so at some point. However the more I hear aircraft IPMS judges discuss their criteria, and how they weight their criteria, its become clear their definition of scale modeling excellence is not my criteria for scale modeling excellence. Hard pass for me on a "construction contest" concept that treats realistic weathering as little more than a garnish. I look forward to hearing what others think. And thanks again for the video.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Thanks for this and I agree. Why can't it fix two problems at the same time.

  • @ShutterAce
    @ShutterAce 3 ปีที่แล้ว +1

    Why not just start another group like AMPS for aircraft? There seems to be enough interest. You could even call it AMPS, just change the leading A to Aircraft from Armor. LOL
    Seriously though, IPMS, AMPS, and NNL all live together in the universe. There are even local clubs that are not affiliated with any of those groups. All of these groups cross-pollinate. I'd join another group. I'd join AMPS if there was a chapter near me. Having a second National event to attend every year would be nice too.
    Touching on the points system. One thing that has been brought up in the past is the idea that the same model should get the same score at every show it is entered in if the system is applied equally. If that is the case then there is no reason to have a national event. Well, not in regards to the contest anyway. How do you see the system working at multiple events? Does the same model score the same at every event? Why or why not? In my mind, it should score the same. It's basically grading your model against a standard not against the models on that table at that time.
    IPMS/USA isn't broken. If you all want a different system go for it. Just do it as a new body. I would support that and as I said I'll even join up.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      I have thought about that. With all of the legwork, it would be easier to just expand AMPS. I would definitely be wary of using the rubric to compare one event to the others. It still happens with the current model as people look at the current winners this year compared to previous years.
      I would not say that the current system is broken per se, but it definitely has room for improvement. The hobby itself has evolved, the organization should as well.

    • @ShutterAce
      @ShutterAce 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      @@WasatchModeler , you're correct. The hobby has evolved. Evolved into different hobbies. At the very least we have builders, painters, and artists. Why should they all have to march to the same drum?
      Starting a new organization in this day and age isn't really that hard. By the looks of all the banter you've already got a base to grow off of. All you need is a few volunteers to get things going. I'd bet you'd have a few hundred members right out of the gate.

  • @markwilson6817
    @markwilson6817 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    As a 15+ year IPMS Judge, I will say one thing needs to be cleared up immediately. An out of alignment wheel, pylon, or vertical stab does NOT eliminate the model from continued consideration. Nor would one shiny glue spot. We note it in writing on the judging sheet and judge the entire effort. Also complex builds are like complex investments. Risk and return oh my brothers. Do it right, large returns, do it badly and well - he choose poorly.

    • @Abbeville_Kid
      @Abbeville_Kid 3 ปีที่แล้ว

      That’s funny, because I was told that it was. I was told by a judge that 75% of the kits are eliminated in the first couple minutes due to time allowance.

  • @johnkress2360
    @johnkress2360 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Your 5 hours would become 7 hours that's assuming you could get enough judges.

  • @griffia
    @griffia 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Painting should be worth equal too construction, a well constructed model with a bland paint job, orange peel or grazing is just as bad in my eyes as a poorly constructed model finished perfectly. Especially as modelling around the world and new finishing styles and artistic flare has come into the modelling scene.

  • @davidfredrickson5130
    @davidfredrickson5130 3 ปีที่แล้ว +2

    Having judged in local and regional shows, I've come to the conclusion that 1st 2nd and 3rd, should be forever banned. In favour of GSB, here's my argument. This form of judging almost totally eliminates any subjectivity. If you have 4 equally excellent examples in a category, Give each a gold. You are recognising excellence. With IPMS. if you have 2 or 3 equally excellent models on the table you start getting into ridiculous pickeyness, then subjectivity rears it's ugly head. Judge each subject on it's own and not against another model on the table. Now I know I'm pissing up a rope, but if each entrant knows beforehand that their entry is going to be judged to a standard, and will be rewarded accordingly. Then I think it's a more fair form of judging

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      Maybe amps can expand. Would love to attend one.

  • @adampender2482
    @adampender2482 3 ปีที่แล้ว

    Judging should be based solely on assembly and painting of the model in the box. Eliminate the rivet counters. Is the HK Models P61 black widow different than the Monogram P61? Yep so let's judge based on how someone assembled and painted the Monogram P61.

    • @WasatchModeler
      @WasatchModeler  3 ปีที่แล้ว

      How would that be structured at the contest?