Can Your Religion Get You Out of School? | Wisconsin v. Yoder
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In episode 44 of Supreme Court Briefs, Amish parents let their kids drop out of school after eighth grade. Wisconsin says they can't do that. The Amish fight back. #supremecourtbriefs #apgov #amish
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Green County, Wisconsin
September 1968
Three Amish students from three different families stop going to school at New Glarus High School. They were Frieda Yoder, age 15. Barbara Miller, also age 15, and Vernon Yutzy, age 14. But in Green County, not going to school if you were under the age of 16 was illegal. The school district tried to get them to go, but the parents said “no man, our kids are no longer going to school due to our religious beliefs.” Green County didn’t care if it was their religious beliefs or not. It fined the parents $5 for breaking the county’s compulsory-attendance law. Yeah. That will show them. Wait, just $5?
Anyway, the parents argued it was Amish tradition to not enroll their kids in public school after 8th grade. In general, there are two reasons for this. One is practicality- Amish teenagers generally need to begin learning a trade after 8th grade and public high schools usually don’t offer adequate training for them. The second reason? The Amish tend to see high schools and colleges as institutions that might promote ideas that go against their traditional Christian values and hurt their chances at going to heaven, yo. Jonas Yoder, the father of Frieda, represented the parents in court, but the Amish generally don’t like going to court to settle disputes. Therefore, a Lutheran minister named William Lindholm took an interest in their case and decided to help them fight, as he believed the county’s compulsory-attendance law went against the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment.
They appealed to the Wisconsin Circuit Court, who agreed with the lower court, so they appealed again to the Wisconsin Supreme Court, who agreed with Yoder and the rest, overturning the decision. The Wisconsin Supreme Court said that the state of Wisconsin couldn’t show that having an educational system for all its citizens was more important than the Amish families’ rights to practice their religion freely. Wisconsin was like, “oh yeah? Fine. We’re appealing to the Supreme Court of the United States, so what up now?”
I’ll tell you what up now. They kept on fighting, and the Court agreed to take on the case, hearing oral arguments on December 8, 1971.
The two things at odds with each other were religious freedom versus compulsory education. Yoder argued that high school threatened his Amish way of life. Wisconsin argued that some Amish kids may decide to leave the Amish faith after they reach adulthood, and so therefore a public school education through high school was necessary so they could more easily adapt to the “real world.” If the kids were 2 or 3 or 4 years older, then it wouldn’t be an issue, because they’d be considered adults who could choose whatever religion they wanted. So was Wisconsin violating the kids’ First Amendment rights by forcing them to go to school?
The Court said “yes.” On May 15, 1972, they announced they sided with Yoder. It was unanimous, although Justice William Douglas gave a partial dissent. But yeah, the Court said the 14th Amendment was applicable to the states in this case, and that the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment DID protect the Amish parents’ right to take their kids out of school, even though they were under 16.
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At about the 3:30 mark you say "they were Christian, afterall"
What did you mean by this? You seem to emphasize it unless I'm misinterpreting your tone or something. I'm perplexed and super curious what the implication(s) is/are
Funny side note: Years ago, I used to live near Abbeville, SC where there's _a ton_ of Yoders, except they were Mennonites, not Amish. We were friends with one of the women. After the 'community' had finished building her new house, she invited us over for dinner, along with some of her Mennonite friends. She waited for her friends to leave so she could show us her TV that was hidden behind a panel in the wall. (Yes, hidden because she wasn't supposed to have one.) She asked us not to tell anyone! But, honestly, _who_ were we going to tell?
I wonder how often this happens? I know it gets harder and harder to stay isolated these days from the Information Age.
@@iammrbeat Well, since this happened about 30 years ago, I'd say she's probably moved on to concealing a smartphone in that wall. She always had a bit of a rebellious streak.
You coulda squeezed her for fresh eggs every week as "hush juice". ☺
@@BeachsideHank LOL!! 😂🤫
@@BeachsideHank ...
Honestly I think the one judge was right; The kids should be allowed input on the choice themselves.
I agree as well...
nah. it should simply illegal to keep kids uneducated.
@@jurgnobs1308 yes because high school prepares to children for the "real world"
@@henri7571 and?
@@jurgnobs1308 so should school be ilegal because they keep kids uneducated?
Last time I was this early, the supreme court didnt have the power of judicial review
Oh snap. Whats that a Supreme Court joke?
@@iammrbeat marbury v madison babyy
Are you aware that today, Febuary 15, 2019 is National Wisconsin Day? Great way to acknowledge as much, Mr. Beat.
Holy crap. No I wasn't aware of that. That's a great coincidence!
pretty neat coincidence
This case was decided on the same day George Wallace was shot, and also the day of my birth as well.
Pretty eventful day
That is craziness.
Supreme Court Briefs.. IS BACK!
Guess who's back. SCOTUS back. Guess who's back. SCOTUS back. Guess who's back.Guess who's back.Guess who's back.Guess who's back.
@@iammrbeat
Mr beat. I suggest you do Timbs v. Indiana, the case that was just decided. I think it will have major implications on state and local police power.
When you're having a bad week but then mr. Beat uploads
I'm sorry you had a bad week. :( Glad I could brighten it up, though. :)
Not actually having a bad week just pointing out the fact that watching a mister beat video always makes me feel good when I am feeling down
Good to hear. Your kind words mean a lot. Thanks Gir affe's.
As if the parents would casually say: "No man..." to the school district! 😂
YA NEVER KNOW. :)
Most of this is fair but the "well established religion" clause will always mean "the ones we like".
Yay! I love Supreme Court Briefs! I enjoy them so much. Thank you for always putting so much effort into your videos. It means a lot that you take the time to do this. On a side note, your Brown v. Board of Education video inspired me to use the topic for an informative speech I have to give (and use your video as a source)!
Additionally, I hope you enjoy your week off!
That is so awesome, Ben. I am so glad you dig the videos. It's almost unbelievable that you're using one of my videos as a source. Good luck with the speech!
Mr. Beat Thank you so much! It went well!
I love these supreme court briefs best one yet!
Aw thanks. That makes me happy to hear. :)
I like that "Stop Comparing, I'm Wearing Myself Out" song. It's pretty neat, Mr. Beat.
That's awesome. Glad you dig it! I saw your other comment about the dude with the plumber's crack at one of the performances of that song live. haha
Yeah, I felt it needed to be addressed.
Just found your channel and I'm binge-listening to Supreme Court Briefs.
First time commenter here! Love the series and since everyone's doing suggestions, I suggest the first cases where the Supreme Court deals when the defendant isn't a person, organization, company or a state. It's just a bunch of stuff. I'm talking of course, the "In Rem" cases. Where it's the United States vs Your stuff.
love this one mr and mrs beat...myself going to private school learned more AT home than at the sooo called system...everyday is a process of learning for myself...you two be good and great..cheers my friends
You make a good point. This case was of course before the internet, but one thing I think about is that now the Amish are exponentially further behind due to not having access to it. Nevermind, just looked it up. Apparently some DO use the internet. Weird.
And glad you dug it! :D
Do you agree with the Supreme Court in this case?
What is the most important Supreme Court case, other than Plessy v. Ferguson, that I have yet to cover with this series?
Mr. Beat Can you do "Castle Rock v. Gonzales"? Love your videos.
Thanks guys!
Hey Hot Mess Ness, I agree with your first response, and regarding your second response....I already made a video for that case. :D
th-cam.com/video/Lz7xJn8X8fE/w-d-xo.html
Absolutely agree with SCOTUS on this one. The Government holds no right to make demands of anyone. All free people should have the Right to make their own decisions. As we learn in Chisholm v Georgia, the States Sovereignty only exists due to the Sovereignty of it's people. By taking away a parents rights to make decisions the government is therefore restricting the Sovereignty of the parents thus putting the Sovereignty of the State itself in Jeopardy.
America has strayed so far from the 13 original States, or 13 Sovereign Countries who came together as a Union under the Constitution. Once the states began taking money from the Federal Government the State itself, a corporate entity gave up it's Sovereignty but that act alone cannot take away the Sovereignty of the people. Therefore under the original intent of the Constitution the "State" can make no claim of demands on it's residents.
You may want to read John Jay's opinion in the aforementioned case. It was one of the earliest SCOTUS cases in our countries history.
I’m excited for this
I'm excited for your comments. WOOT!
I LOVE YOUR VIDS KEEP IT UP MAN.
Thanks buddy
Aw man, ONE day too late. My kids took a test on this case yesterday. I mean, not JUST this case. Whatever. I always loved the $5 part of the story. Shows some real pluck on the part of the Amish. Peace in the Middle East, bruh.
This happens more often than you'd think. I get so many comments along the lines of "oh man I JUST took a test over this!"
Wow, both of the guys that have saved me on this course in one place! Surprised that no one has seen this.
I've noticed every dissent has at least one word which is not used in everyday English. Or perhaps it is the stentorian voice which Mr. Beat reads them that makes the comments more vituperative #gothesaurus
You would be correct. I read your comment out loud in a stentorian voice, btw. :)
It's a perfectly cromulent word.
Very well made and informative video. : )
Thanks!
"my name is jonas"
THANKS FOR ALL YOU'VE SHOWN USSSS
goated reference
I agree with the Amish totally. In addition to that, I have no faith in the school system at all as it, for me, was nothing more than the graduation of the young from one bully teacher to another.
Mind you, I didn't have Mr. Beat as a teacher, or anyone like him. It would've been different if I had, I'm sure.
Wait. Hold the phone. You are taking off next week? Does that mean I get to actually see you?
I mean, I'm just in the basement.
Guys, if you need a neutral third party to moderate your comment spats, I got a guy.
@@heimlershistory yeah, this happens a lot. Have your people call my people. Lol
@@iammrbeat guess I'm too lazy.
President During this time: Richard Nixon
Chief Justice: Warren E. Burger
Argued December 8, 1971
Decided May 15, 1972
Case Duration: 158 Days
Decision: 7-0 in favor of Yoder
I love it! Why am I just now finding out about this series??
I live in close proximity to Green County, I’m surprised I never heard about this even during my history class’ Supreme Court unit. The Amish communities around here are great and as a public school student in a district that likely borders New Glarus’ I doubt that the schools were teaching anything that would get the students as rewarding a life as one in traditional Amish lifestyle.
CONGRATS ON 80K SUBSCRIBERS!!
4:25 Parents can't just take their kids out of school and teach them some wacky ideology -- shows a Russian classroom.
What a lucky kid, i wish My mom had gotten me out of the last two years of high school. I'm feel so bummed
it's crazy that there is still amish people out in the world. I see them quite often and it still shocks me every time
Do one on Wisconsin v. Mitchell!
This is a couple of years before his stroke, and I agree with Douglas. I'd like to see a bio but it was sad how the stroke destroyed the judgment of a remarkable mind.
Wait, my friends last name is Yoder and his dad was Amish...AND I’m in Chicago really close...
Sweet. I live 10 minutes south of New Glarus. We talked about this case quite in depth in our high school civics class.
wait how long did it take for the court to come to a decision cuz wouldn't they already have been forced to go through high school by the time the courts discussed it and made a conclusion
This is pretty common but but at least a precedent is made
Holy shit dude. My hometown. Holy shit
Similar issue has been brought up the the NCPCR about madarsa education, but it's more about regulating what actually is taught in these schools beyond religion classes. (Basically no science or maths)
make learning fun again, mr.beat for pres
Make America Educate Again. MAEA
@@iammrbeat That does have a better ring to it. If I wasn't Canadian I'd vote for you!
1:23 weezer reference?!?!?!
Yea
PLEASE put up more cases confirming this issue. Thank you for the GOOD INFO
Brasil is still waiting for a video on us Mr. Beat!!!💚💛👊
P.S. Wisconsin sound like the middle of nowhere, I bet its cold as hell there. Why not tropical Brasil!
Just noticed in the into, the court has the light on in only the outermost room on the left, and in ALL BUT the outermost room on the right . . .
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!!! :)
My name is Jonas. 🎶
I can't believe you're the only one to get this reference so far. :/
We are practically the same person.
Weezer
From my European perspective this sounds awful. Everyone should receive education.
In defense of the Amish, they still are getting an education. I think the argument is what kind of education.
The Amish are some of the most educationed in Craftsmanship and in traditional agricultural practices of anybody in Europe or the Americas.
Although I am a firm believer in Education, I have to say the modern school system does tend to have a very progressive agenda that goes against religion in many ways and I have to side with the parents on this one because it is not the government's place to tell you how you can raise your kids unless you are causing them harm and the Amish are a very well established religion that has been around longer then the USA and many counties in Europe and they will probably out last most of the countries that are around today.
Look at that MR. Beat I agree with your point on this one... Rare lol
That's authoritarian everyone should be able to get a education not forced to get it
@@topman8565 So parents should be free to impose backwards ideas on their kids? Talk about authoritarian...
@@gladonos3384 so schools should be free to impose ideas on kids
This is a good one.
やった！A new SCB vid!!!!!
"Why are you speaking about the rights of the children this is about the parents" And so it begins.
Just saved me on ap gov💯
Mr beat do a series of midterm election
I remember growing up in the 1st grade these kids who never stayed to hear the national anthem, now is in Canada but every single day they left right before we started to sing it, thinking back now... lucky basterds wish i didn't have to sing every day
This is neat!!! I didn't know there were Amish in Wisconsin. being from SE PA, these fellows are pretty familiar.
Oh yeah. They are spread out all over the country. There are a few communities in Kansas, too.
It takes a lot for me to disagree with the Supreme Court, because I have tremendous respect for the institution and the advanced education and experience of the Justices. However, there are some cases that I have to take issue with; Korematsu v. United States, Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, etc. I also disagree in this case, on the grounds that the First Amendment rights of the children were not and to this day are not considered, essentially giving the parents complete control over the child's education, personal beliefs, and state of mind. A parent can subject their children to whatever they like as long as they can spin it on religious grounds, regardless of how it impacts the child or their ability to function in a civilized, secular, and multicultural society. Children are human beings, and we should be treating them as such, not as animals or objects that we are free to treat however we wish.
I think you make a great point. William Douglas would have been sympathetic to your argument.
Every year it becomes more pressing of an issue that American culture has any goodwill toward parents that act as though their children are robots devoid of free will, and that their own ideas are the only ones their kids should have.
Sisters v Oregon was another important education-related case.
i like how he uses powerpoint to edit his videos 😂❤️. thank you mr beat
Power Point is also what Steven Spielberg uses.
Ah yes, because high school definitely prepares everyone for the "real world".
OH SNAP. I teach high school social studies, so I don't know how to respond to this.
Yeah, like what the hell am I gonna use trigonometry for, lmao? An average person will never need this.
@@Lycaon1765 yes you will, the average kid may aswell become a scientist (you know, the single most important kind of job in the world)
Besides, that kind of mental effort makes people more intelligent, why do nigerian inmigrants have an IQ higher than the native american population in the US but wayyy lower in their home country? because they recieve an education that may not be useful but that it's quite hard and makes their brains develop more
@@Azknowledgethirsty average as in every day. As in the median.
The average person on the street isn't a scientist. There aren't that many scientists. Don't be so damn dense.
Stop trying to defend a broken system.
IQ doesn't do shit.
And no, I _won't_ need trigonometry. Not as an average person, not as an artist, not as a writer, not as any of the things I want to be or will be.
@@Lycaon1765 but most fields require you to have your brain trained, besides a lot of people work in the science fields (25% of graduates) and all the other subjects are there to give you perspective into what you want to do
Suggestions:
Beijing vs Shanghai
Mumbai vs New Delhi
Kyoto and Tokyo
Melbourne vs Sydney
France vs England
Indonesia vs Malaysia
Japan vs South Korea
I like these videos
I like these comments :)
They could’ve just paid the $5 … 😕
It's not about the money, it's about sending a message
So $5.00 in 1971 accounted for inflation is $32.13 in 2020 dollars per child. Now multiply that time 3 and you get 96.39. So 100.00 per month can dent a families income for awhile.
How about Santa Clara County v Southern Pacific Railroad
What happened to your Bethel v Fraser video? It seems to have disappeared!
Besides Amish Christian students, can I have more examples of other religions that have supported children to choose whether to go to school or not?
Planned parenthood v casey
That's another great suggestion.
@@iammrbeat awesome I hope you find time to do it It's a big case and also I'm doing my term paper on it rn 🤷 could always use some more videos on it.
Please do Nix v. Hedden!
I agree with the ruling.
Roper v. Simmons
Great suggestion :)
One of the kids, Vernon Yutzy, is my dad’s cousin and is no longer Amish.
Why didn't Powell and Rehnquist vote? Too new to the Court?
I'm curious why it is that Powell and Rehnquist chose not to vote on this case.
I agree with William Douglas.
If NJ didn't have compulsory education,the famous Jersey Shore bars and the rental industry would be out of business as most of the wardens spend their summer there.
Was that a burn? I am slow to follow sometimes.
@@iammrbeat Our so called educators make possible the Jersey Shore.
I know that my generation ridiculed the study of other religions (Religious Studies) when we were school age, but I believe that understanding what other religions preach (not necessarily practicing them) is useful if we're going to get rid of this world of religious hatred and mistrust we live in at the moment. The inspiration for this is the Simpsons episode Homer the Heretic. The message it gives is it fine for people to practice religions, whichever they may be, but not to force those beliefs on others. The beauty of the message is that it is delivered in a way that doesn't emphasise one religion over another, a reference to the Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment of the Constitution
What a great episode. I think season 4 was my favorite honestly.
It's amazing how The Simpsons is still going twenty years after anyone watched it.
Hey Mr. beat! Can you please do In Re Gault some time?
My name is Jonas, I'm carryin' the wheel.
1:24 - I see what you did there.
The children are going home
The children are going home
The children are going hooomeee
Yeah!
State: These kids need to be educated to prepare them for society
Fed gov: Your education system is a joke
Well, these people like the Green Bay Packers, so...
Have you ever considered doing famous international legal cases?
Most definitely. If you could pick one to cover, what would it be? The Nuremberg Trials perhaps?
@@iammrbeat Oh wow I didn't expect you to reply. Big fan of your work, I'm really interested in your coverage of political history (I find it to be really helpful in my university studies). When it comes to international law, genocide conventions are only the 'tip of the iceberg', at least when it comes to notions on human rights. Some interesting modern cases pertaining to international human rights law (which is an important topic to cover in this day and age) are Velásquez-Rodríguez v. Honduras, U.S.v Noriega, R v Bow Street Metropolitan Stipendiary Magistrate ex parte Pinochet, etc. International law is always a tricky subject because it can't be contained as easily as 'Supreme Court Briefs' for example (jurisdiction, what can you say). I study political science, history, and german @ NC State- if you need any more ideas, feel free to shoot a message. Keep up the good work!
No stay in school dont do drug'ssss...
Preach it, Grey Mind.
The irony
Can you do a Compared video about countries?
Which countries? I did do Saudi Arabia and Iran and Greenland and Iceland awhile back.
@@iammrbeat umm.... How about China and India.
@@iammrbeat And Btw the compared videos are my favorite :D
Glad to hear it, and thanks for the suggestion!
@@iammrbeat Ok and You're Welcome
I strongly disagree with the supreme court here. The future of the children shouldnt be destroyed because of thr belive of the partents. The argument that because it is a well estebled religious institution is quite weak.
Yeah, it's definitely a potential slippery slope.
Always gotta ask, what happened to Powell and Rehnquist
They didn't hear oral arguments because they had just been sworn in.
While Douglas's dissent sounds reasonable I really don't know how that would work in practice. If a parent wants to homeschool their children they need to get the children's permission? Who would arbitrate that? It also doesn't seem consistent with the law in general, which says that parents have the right to decide how to raise their children.
My man, how much do I have to donate to get you to do a Morrison v. Olsen brief
The flip side of this case would be Employment Division of OR v. Smith. It’s now a widely derided decision and would make a good video.
Do Toronto v Chicago! Vancouver v Seattle also please!!
Nice job, thanks for the video. I was home schooled k-12 just because my parents felt they could give me a better education than the local public school. I went to college, have had 2 businesses, I'm successful by most standards, and I learned how to be a critical thinker. I never knew that Homeschooling was made possible by this supreme court case. Thanks again!
Can we talk about Timbs V. Indiana?
Wisconssin v. Yoder (1973)
In Sep 1968, 3 Amish student from different family stopped going to school in Green County, Wisconssin bc of religious region
- illegal to not go to school under the age of 16 in Green County (Compulsory-Attendance Law)
- Amish people don't like to go to courts, so William Lindholm, a Lutheran minister, decided to help them fight (Yoder is one of the parent's name)
- case pushed all the way to supreme court, oral argument was first heard in Dec 8, 1971
- ruled that the Compulsory-Attendence Law violated the 1st amendment, the Free exercise clause
- parents use this case to argue for homeschool kids
Limitations to Free exercise clause:
- only ok if it was a well established religion that was consistent historically with taking kids out from school
Thank you for the info Mr. Beat!
This was a fun one. A lot more fun then dread Scott 🥺
My thing about this case is when they say that all religions aren’t equal. That’s no different than saying All men aren’t equal because of their religious status. Just because a religion isn’t a Christian religion doesn’t mean that it’s not well established. All religions just like let’s say all martial arts are accomplishing the same purpose
I had a teacher named Mr Yoder once.
How was he as a teacher? There's also a town in Kansas named Yoder. I guess it's pretty common?
@@iammrbeat There were also Reps in Kanas named Yoder.
Meh, he thought well but was easy to make him mad
3:25 Lol what? And who gets to decide what is "crazy?" If you described Catholicism to a Martian it would sound insane. And just because a particular form of insanity was around for a long time doesn't and shouldn't make it more constitutionally sanctioned.
A Martian would also think atheism is insane
Sucks tho Amish adults with no profit(hand me downs trust funds) will want to join the education system but miss important classes like calculus(i.p theft my profile my data/i.p)
And what if those parents were Muslims? I think the Court would have handled the case a little bit different...
Perhaps. I did point out how they made special mention that the Amish were of a Christian tradition. So yeah, you make a good point.
Does Islam discourage education past the 8th grade? Would it be a violation of the family's 1st ammendmant right to enforce compulsory education? The answer is no because Muslims have many places of higher education in the middle east, and historically have supported education for males; and for the last century of females also. For this reason I doubt a Muslim family could get out of sending their child to school. However homeschooling and private schools are very popular in America and if a Muslim parents wants their kid to get educated in a different way, there are other options. I myself attended a private Catholic school in the mainly protestant area of southern Missouri. Private schools in the US are usually though not always, better than public schools academically and are usually religious in nature.
@@tannergustin5684 When I asked that question I meant to say that it was easier for the Court to accept the practice because it was of a Christian tradition, as Mr. Beat pointed out. If it was a Muslim tradition I don't think the decision would be the same.
Technically Amish kids are homeschooled.
You forgot to say that the smallest Yoder (or Yoda in Galactic Basic) went on to become a Jedi Master by 1980 and didn't really need high school anyhow. (Although high school English might have gotten him out of his object-subject-verb anastrophe.
Wise, you are.
With the debate over executive power and separation of powers recently regarding the border wall, could you do an episode on Youngstown Sheet and Tube v Sawyer(1952.)
Justice Robert Jackson's concurrence set the modern framework for sep of powers and I know you mentioned before that you're a big Truman fan.
That's another case I haven't heard of. Dang, Michael. Your knowledge runs deep. I appreciate the suggestion.
@@iammrbeat The benefits of history nerddom lol
@@iammrbeat Even if it's just put on the list, I think it's perfect for this series. A huge landmark case but one that because it deals with structure isn't as well known a case. And it is especially relevant today as I mentioned in the original comment.
What if not feeding your kid was your religion because your religion requires you to fend for yourself? I hate this ruling.