can't believe you didn't include conjure fey. it can be used in combat to summon meat shields, do damage , with pixie and dryad it trade one spell slot for multiple spells. And you can use it during down time. It also a great pre rest burn spell. Use all your spell slot to cast it/upcast it and summon dryad and get a ton of good berries for the next day. Summon giant snake and get enough poison to coat ll your weapons etc.
So you know with Conjure Woodland beings you don't get to pick what you summon right? You don't get to pick what you summon for any of these spells. You pick a challenge rating and then the DM gets to decide whatever they want. Also no where does it say you can milk a giant snake to get poison to coat your weapons? What rule are you sighting for that? If the creature dies and leaves no corpse behind, what makes you think you can gather venom from a creature that doesn't technically exist.
You also know that Find Steed is non concentration, non dispell-able and lasts until the creature dies right? If it doesn't get destroyed, it stays indefinitely. But no let's replace a constant companion that can watch all night while we sleep and travel with us as long as we want for our one concentration spell.
"I've learned the secrets to magical power, the possibilities are endless, I can manipulate the weave and bend it to my will, I have-" "So you picked fireball again" "Yes."
Can say without a doubt that a Scanlan picking Counterspell as one of his secrets was the best choice made by any player for the entire first CR campaign.
Yep from watching critical role I think a lot of people thought, myself included, that counter spell was on the bard list. It is honestly such a must have on bard that it is weird that it is not on the list by default. Hopefully Tasha's fixes this!
Just imagine what would happen if he had Glibness. That one 9th level counterspell against Vecna would have not been needed, he could have just used the regular 3rd level spell slot and wouldn't have had to even roll, cause the minimum would've been above 20.
i noticed that it didnt seem like scanlan was rolling it properly tho, its a spellcasting ability check, but he didnt add jack of trades to that, could have been a stronger counterspell lol
Find Greater Steed combined with a 1-2 level dip in Hexblade is a powerful combination. Access to Shield and Armor of Agathys, which affect both you and your mount, gives you survivability and maneuverability to do all your bard stuff and deal some damage.
the big advantage of a bard getting find steed is that the number of spells you can then use for share spells is huge -- enlarge is on the bard spell list now so BAM you become large and your steed becomes huge.
@@crr4kk810 OMG yes! I was just leaving a comment that spells like PS and Vampiric Touch technically target the caster while harming another creature so you can have a vampire horse or an acidic horse or if you pick Dragon Breath a MFing fire breathing horse.
I planned on taking hexblade as a 2 level dip for my lore bard (that already has 1 lvl of arcana cleric). Adding the steed and AoA never even occurred to me and it’s brilliant. Thanks.
1/2 caster spells are powerful for the level of spell: aura of vitality, crusader's mantle, swift quiver, etc. I love spirit guardians but your average lore bard is not gonna want to be that close to the enemies.
for me, some of the best spells are from the paladin/ranger list. I prefer a more Magus-y playstyle, casting spells to enhance my weapons, and I love the idea of the Whispers college, so the spells Steel Wind Strike and Swift Quiver are awesome. Circle of Power is also an amazing buff spell, which really fits in with the Bard, being able to reduce damage that their allies take also means that they won't have to spend spells on healing them, nor inspiration on saving throws as often. Elemental/Holy Weapon is really good to buff an ally, or even yourself in a pinch. Banishment is also a good option. particularly on the Eloquence bard. you can set yourself up for them to subtract a BI die roll from the save, which is nasty. Find Greater Steed can also be OP, as you mentioned. if you're able to get your hands on a Ring of Spell Storing, that's arguably a mount for the whole party, given a week or so to pass it around, at which point you as a party have flying mounts. Conjure Woodland Beings is also really nice, and as an added bonus, you get to roleplay that "Snow White singing the birds out of the trees" as a bard. Stoneskin is also nice to get, either for yourself as a "get out of jail" card, or for someone else in the party. Call Lightning is my go-to spell for damage, it's concentration, so you can get a good amount of damage out of it other than that, I do like the "staple" spells that the bards don't get. Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, etc.
I think all Arcane full-casters should have access to Counterspell, makes sense to allow the wielders of full arcane magic to disrupt other caster's magics.
Big fan of Thunder Step, which I took at 6 as a Lore Bard. More than once it saved our wizard or druid from getting eaten by something XD. Also Bigby's Hand, which can serve offensive, defensive, and utility purposes.
Steel Wind Strike is a personal fav to grab. That spell is just anime as hell. It’s also really good if you combine it with Greater Invisibility the turn before. Better chance to hit, and subsequently to crit, on each strike.
The spell Slow made a fantastic magical secrets choice until it was added to the Bard spell list in the class features UA. Haste is still top tier though.
@@arisirote8404 w/ Secrets they can snipe any spells so I guess making an argument for them having any spell kinda don’t work Wizard has more spell flexibility I think their advantage, Played bard b4 and found that I always wanted more spells then I cud take . But haste is one of the best buff spells and think bards shud get it w/o have to use their secret
@@kylemullen5341 Actually, Bards get more spells than Wizards. Even though they can know (in the book) up to 386 spells, they can only have a small number prepared at a time. Where as bards with magical secrets actually get more total spells per day on average than any other class. Although having played a bard myself I do have to say that the appetite for having more spells is unending.
@@arisirote8404 Wizards (DM dependence) if they find scrolls get Crazy spell counts , Also It sounds weird but that fact they don’t get healing spells frees up their choices abit , I find party’s kinda lean on bards to make sure they have those heal spells . Kinda wish bards had a arcane recovery feature connected to the more caster based sub classes
I'm getting closer to picking my first magical secrets (probably still a year away from now 😂) I intend on picking Immovable Object alongside Counterspell. Seems like a really fun spell to mess around with
Simple answer:Action economy. Bardic inspiration, healing word and animate objects can conflict with this. Sure it's not concentration, but SO many excellent 2nd/3rd level spells and literally so little time. Leave the Spiritual weapon and Spiritual Guardians to the party Cleric. If no party Cleric then go for it! But it is rool noice.
I really like phantasmal killer. It's only available on a couple subclass and wizards and I really like the flavor of the spell. Lvl 4 spell isn't so bad either
This is a great list. I'd say a couple that I love that aren't mentioned are Aura of Vitality (especially pared with a life cleric dip), Disintegrate, Bless, Heal and Heroes Feast
My Collage of Blades bard took Steel Wind Strike, partly because it's really good and thematic, partly because one of my inspirations for him is Nightcrawler.
Find Greater Steed and Haste are pretty good bread and butter picks. Your mount's gotta go fast, and it will typically allow them to make a second attack unless you decide to Dash or Disengage. The +2 AC plus any barding you might have is really solid too. Only downside is that failing your concentration check means you both lose your actions, making War Caster and/or Resilient Constitution really valuable safety measures.
I'd recommend picking flashy reliable spell that are going to be iconic to you plus counter spell. Animate dead, resilient sphere, heroes feast, fireball, haste, slow, telekinesis, destructive wave, spirit guardians, bless, find stead, find familiar, wish, bigby's hand. Get a flashy old reliable, something to be known for, that's kinda the bards thing.
If you’re picking up a valor bard at later levels for a oneshot or something, magical secrets charisma-based shillelagh can save you a lot of ability score increases, especially if you can’t multiclass into pact of the tome warlock
Top two are pretty obvious. They're just so very, very good. The real interesting bits are the rest of the list and the reasoning. The one spell I'd be tempted to put on my list is Revivify. That can really save your group in a bad spot.
That intro bit had me thinking of Highlander, when he rescues the girl from the Nazis. "Shhh, it's a certain kind of magic". ...Need to go and re-watch Highlander now. :)
No one's suggesting Mirror Image. Goes well with any of the steeds and its a good alternative to the usual 6th level Fireball/Lightning (those get old and damage isn't YOUR thing anyway). Also it doesn't require concentration which is usually a big problem with bards (no con save proficiency, low con stats, low AC, and a lot of other stuff that you use occupy it already-- charms, illusions, etc) Revivify is best left to clerics and wizards anyway imo. Maybe an escape spell like thunder step or misty. Usually you have that down already at 6th. Counterspell is a staple if you can't rely on other casters to have it and you use it best anyway.
Oh Haste is another one that couples both with your offensive frontline and your mount, though once again, concentration plus no saves makes for a pickle. And this one has a pretty big drawback on dropping concentration on it.
I will say, I will always be a fan of this game plan: - Take Glyph of Warding and Planar Binding. (Bard Spells) - Take Magic Circle and Infernal Calling. (Secrets) *Steps* Cast Glyph of Warding + Infernal Calling (200 GP + 1 Hour / 999 GP + 1 Minute) - Make the condition that sets it off a command word. A made-up word works best for this so nobody accidentally says it. Cast Glyph of Warding + Magic Circle (200 GP + 1 Hour / 100 GP + 1 Minute) - Make the Magic Circle inverted and choose Fiends. - Make the condition that sets it off the target being summoned. Cast Planar Binding (1000 GP + 1 Hour) *Note* As far as I'm aware, this works. Infernal Calling is a summon spell which is covered by Glyph of Warding. Magic Circle affects an area which is covered by Glyph of Warding. Infernal Calling will stay active for its full duration. You have just enough time to cast Planar Binding on the creature, which I don't think you could do as a Glyph because the creature needs to be there for the full cast.
A few more that l like: Guiding Bolt Haste Armor of Agathys Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings Tenser's Tranformation Crown of Stars Elemental Bane Beacon of Hope/Aura of Vitality
Bigby’s is better than Telekinesis in combat. For one, after casting, you can attack, grapple, push, or defend with a bonus action every round! That’s huge! It means 9 rounds of actions IN ADDITION to Bigby’s for a minute. Telekinesis is better for utility and duration, but by far inferior in combat.
Im a fan of Animate Objects to be honest. It's basically Animate Dead for non-humanoids, since corpses are objects. "That's a nice dead Fire Giant you got there...."
Question for the community: Does the stress from Wish apply if you do the dot points? Are they included in the "standard" use of the spell? Is there a risk of the "never casting again" if you use one of these options? Never been sure.
Yes, the stress applies to each bulletpoint in the spell except the first: "The stress of casting this spell to produce _any effect other than duplicating another spell_ weakens you". Essentially, only duplicating a spell of 8th level or lower is safe.
@@kogarashi_kaito Cool thanks. I was never sure whether the dots were just "included" implicitly with the first statement. Never been sure how i'd rule if it came up. But i think you make a solid point.
@@Natsirt666 It's worth noting that the benefit you get from a bullet point effect is immunity to DM fuckery on your wish. The DM can only change the meaning of the wish if the player comes up with it, the bullet point effects are safe.
What do you think about Shadow of Moil or Circle of Power for a Bards Stolen Magical Secrets? I got Eldritch Blast from another option my character has and agree cantrips are meh for stealing unless you have plans for feats.
Mate's running a high level 5th campaign with experienced gamers but using 3.5ed modules. NO modification of monster stats, traps etc. Counterspell is only available in 5th ed and it's saved their bacon time and again.
As a Lore Bard, I've been debating for the longest time between Telekinesis or Bibgy's Hand. I'm about to turn lvl10 and still can't decide. Any thoughts ? Suggestions ?
Hmmm, just made a College of Whispers Bard 10/ Rogue Assassin 3 for an existing DotMM game. Took Steel Wind Strike and Booming Blade. Was gonna take Inflict Wounds but Booming Blade//Psychic Blades/ Sneak Attack is too good to pass up, specially as a cantrip.
@@-d_9894 That's a very good observation. For inflict wounds, the answer is pretty simple. I want to be able to upcast at will and cast it more than once a day. As for Booming Blade, my ASIs are accounted for. While I have strong DPs, class wise, I'm a controller so I need the CHA bumps. As a multi class, I only have 2 ASIs. Might go back and look at it though
nice set of spells. I'm about to multiclass into lore bard after playing a paladin I wasn't sure what to take, I was leading haste but this makes me rethink.
@@mke3053 if one is looking for flat out damage than as a paladin haste is supreme. also paladins get to add their cha mod to con checks making it alot easier to concentrate, if one gets resilient or already has prof in con than the odds of failing are really low.
@NerdImmersion With Fireball and Counterspell as options @ 6th level for Lore Bards, it's really hard to rationalize other spells like Pass w/o Trace. Love the spell, but filling in the bard's lack of damage potential with Fireball is SO helpful. I'm playing Curse of Strahd right now and when we're trying to avoid encounters I've used my Cha-based skills to do so. When s**t hits the fan and combat is inevitable, I've been really thankful I've got Fireball in my back pocket.
Wow, I like the list but I'm surprised you didn't say aura of vitality. A lot of people recommend a level in life cleric and aura of vitality and goodberry
I definitely see the appeal in wanting a cantrip with an attack roll if you're playing a bard. But you're right, using one of your magical secrets for it seems like a missed opportunity for something else.
Eh... I keep hearing different rulings for Wish that anything other then copying another 8th or lower lv spell has a chance to get rid of it. Including the recommended options.
The spell description itself specifically says that. "The stress of casting this spell to produce *any effect other than duplicating another spell* weakens you... there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress." There really shouldn't be any other ruling on it, it's specifically spelled out.
The benefit of the bullet point effects is that the DM does not have leverage over the effect of the wish. It can still make you never cast wish again, but if you wish for you and your companions to all be resistant to bludgeoning damage, that will happen as intended with no possible drawbacks (other than not casting wish).
A Warlock with book of Ancient secret could gain access to this via Book of Ancient Secret. Astraea my Satyr Bard only have Shatter as attack spell while rest of her kit is pure utility
I've just considered. When you are riding a Pegasus they can only dash, disengage and dodge. So cast spirit guardians on yourself, get your Pegasus to disengage and then just use its 90ft flying to fly by each creature and make them save against spirit guardians. You can then repeat this on each of your turns AND still have your action???
Late to the party but I think... no... Counterspell, lorewise, is undoing another creature's manipulation on the weave of magic, which on itself, is an arduous effort. Not everyone has the delicate approach required.
"Two Spirit Guardians is basically just a meat grinder for your enemies." I think this is implying that two overlapping Spirit Guardians stack their damage, but apparently that's incorrect: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/93082/72490
25:00 I have to agree. I personally wish Counterspell was a feature all spellcasters got as a reaction, akin to an Opportunity Attack or the Fighting Style Protection. It would read the same, such as you need to expend a spell slot, except it doesn't count against your spells known/prepared.
@@NerdImmersion exactly, anyone who’s life style would revolve around around magic should be able to understand it well enough to counter it, but paladins and rangers I feel aren’t attuned/ informed enough about the magic they wield to have enough understanding to counter it in my opinion
Destructive wave was the spell of hexblade instead of con of cold .... how much better if they kept that. Wish is the 9th choice ?? really wish can open all the other spells even if not in bard spell so its magical secrets on demand, but yeah you need to be 18th level so yeah. but like casting clone and symilacrom as an action is something alright
@@NerdImmersion The 33% chance doesn't apply for the best use of wish, which is spell replication. Use it to create free Clone bodies for yourself, give yourself the benefits of other permanent/ long-lasting spells such as Find Greater Steed, FInd Familiar, Create Homunculus, Contingency, etc, ressurect people, make demiplanes, create infinite simulacrums of yourself/ other powerful casters you find (or just have a free simulacrum around with you if your DM doesn't run Simulacrum RAW, which is fair considering it's still overpowered even after crawford nerfs). So many magical secret choices are good because they give ongoing benefits, and Wish gives you the benefits of all of them. Even being a late-game spell, it's absolutely a #1 pick because of its sheer utility. So much so that it should really just be on the spell list because every bard will pick it anyways.
I'm totally fine with player strategizing with each other during combat. 99% of the game is built around combat, so I say let people actually have fun with it.
Why not just say that they can strategize, but things they talk about are things enemies can hear? That incentivizes them to come up with strategies in advance and create code names for them or other secret cues, which can make them feel more like a team, more immersed in the world, and more rewarded for preparation.
I think Morekainens Faithful hound would work well. Like telekinesis it can iirc can both benefit from jack of all trades and Glibness for its atk roll. Its also active for 8 hours can see invisible creatures and warns of intruders. --- The dunamancy stuff comes to mind and for sh**s and giggles i like to pick inmoveable object because you can be rather creative with it. --- Creation gives you a lot of out of combat utility and you could still summon weapons with it. --- Shadowblade for whispers bards. --- Combat oriented i would go: Chromatic sphere for the damagetypes. Ensnaring strike - ranged and cc. with a bit of persistant damage. Branding Smite to give you allies advantage + its a ranged smite. Holy weapon - Again you can be ranged with extra damage + the blinding thing. --- Yes to counterspell for all classes. And cantrips ... its easyer to take magic Initiate with two cantrips and anothrr spell like hex.
Honestly, with your point about Counterspell, I think the spell should be re-worked in a few ways. 1) Any class that can cast spells should be able to learn this spell. If you know the workings of a spell, you should also know how to disrupt a spell. I'd almost want to give the spell for free upon reaching the level to be able to cast it, much like how I think all classes who can cast spells should know Prestidigitation for free. 2) Counterspell cannot be countered by the target caster in order to allow them to finish casting their current spell. You've seen it before in games - Spellcaster 1 casts a spell. Spellcaster 2 casts Counterspell as their reaction. Spellcaster 1 uses their reaction to Counterspell Spellcaster 2's Counterspell and their spell works. Spells tend to require verbal and/or somatic components. They're often very specific in order to work. How then can you suddenly stop casting one spell, cast another spell, then go back to casting the original spell from where you left off? I feel like if Spellcaster 1 is going to be hit with Counterspell, either another caster can use Counterspell to interrupt Spellcaster 2's Counterspell, but if Spellcaster 1 does it, they lose their first spell entirely (making it pointless to do). In all honesty, I don't think this severely nerfs Counterspell either... and it'd still be one of the most effective spells to have in the game. I'd love to hear your opinions on these change ideas, though...
Revivify seems like an essential spell for any group. If there's no cleric, you need it. If your cleric dies, you need it. It's also excellent as a back up in groups with tough clerics. Simulacrum could be a fun powerful spell. Wall of force... obviously. No, not every class that can cast spells should be able to Counterspell. Why should they? First it's one of the things that separates arcane casters from divine. Second, think about the consequences of this if all casters can counterspell. Spellcasters in general would be stymied. I cast.. counterspell. BBBEG casts... counterspell. This would make the game, casters especially, really boring.
There is ZERO logic that just because you can cast a spell or even Dispel Magic, that you by nature MUST be able to cast Counterspell. It's a spell, and if your class or archetype doesn't have access to it, it's by design. You can make ANY reasoning as to why, or why not, but clearly it has been omitted purposely, for the same reason as some casters can't cast Fireball, or whatever spell is out there. It's RAW. Do you want to change that, knock yourself out, but thems the rules! You might rationalize that perhaps Wizards are those who have access to it are getting a perk for BEING those classes by having some spells limited to themselves. Not such a novel concept given how many class-specific spells are out there. Also given that there are various means for some classes to pick it up outside these limits that the rules are working AS INTENDED. Once again, if you don't like this, do what you want at your table, but it makes perfect sense to me as it clearly does to the game's designers, but they won't be knocing down your door to confiscate your books if you choose to homebrew it otherwise ;P
I feel bards should get counterspell raw. The religious casters shouldn't because counterspell because its a quick reflex. Were I feel the religious casters druids,clerics palidins, rangers. Funnel there magic through the divine. Bards technically aren't arcane but if ur gonna split the casters in 2 groups I feel they fit more with the wizard and soccer vs cleric and druid.
@@NerdImmersion Ok so it's less that they aren't proficient with their own spellcasting ABILITY and more that you simply aren't proficient with ABILITY checks naturally.... That is still so very weird. I guess that means that Enhanceability has some ACTUAL use for counter magic users. Oh.. Guidance technically works as well.. now that's interesting...
See, characters can't be proficient in *ability*, they're proficient in *skills*. Or tools. You can't be proficient in Intelligence, for example, even if you're wizard. Any ability check that doesn't have a skill or tool associated with it won't have the proficiency bonus.
so in the intro, he mentions this is his personal top 10, so we can't really say anything is wrong with the list, as he might just like those spells. But I still want to point out a few weaknesses and strengths of the spells he mentions. But first a few general things to keep in mind. 1: Bards actually have good damage on their list, not a lot of options, but those they have are good. (Dissonant whispers, Animate Object, Synaptic static). So if you are picking up a damage spell, you are either doing it for flavor, or because it is so much stronger than these options that it is still worth it. (I mention this, because I see the misconception that bards do poor damage, I think it stems from them having few damage spells, but the actually do good damage if you want them to). 2: a lot of the bards best spells are concentration. (Heat metal, Hypnotic pattern, Fear, Polymorph, Animate objects) So picking up even more concentration might not be the best idea. On to the list: 10: Destructive wave. Deals okay damage, it is cool it avoids hitting allies, but not particularly spectacular. By the level you can get this, the bard has decent damage options of their own, this might be a slight upgrade, but not by much. 9: Wish, I would have put it higher on the list, copying all spell lists is awesome. Depending on what other magical secrets you have, this might give you, a familiar, Find greater steed, simulacrum, contingency, Antipathy/sympathy, all cast well ahead of your adventure. 8: Pass without Trace, a pretty good option, you only need one party member to know this, but that might be you, a worthy addition to the list. 7: Telekinesis. this is concentration, so that is not good. Animate Objects fulfills some of the same utility, and is one of the great picks already on the bard spell list. It also competes with wall of force, why give an enemy a check to escape at all? 6: Telepathic Bond, I like this spell, just not this much. Also it might only be on the wizard spell list, but being a ritual means if anyone picks up the ritual casting feat and pick wizard (which is a good idea because wizards have the most rituals), they can pick this up. Good spell though. 5: Fireball/lightning bolt: I would usually not pick these up, the great thing about them is they are not concentration. The bad thing is, you can already do damage. I think they are most appropriate on a lore bard, in a campaign you don't suspect to go much above level 9, where you get synaptic static. 4: Wall of Force, should be number one on this list. He mentions a lot of good uses for it, but not the most basic use. Which is to cut off half the enemies from the battle, essentially turning 1 deadly encounter into 2 cake walks. Don't trap all the enemies, they will come back to hunt you down in 10 minutes. Trap half the enemies, and if there is some sort of synergy between the enemies, break that up. The most simple synergy is melees protecting archers/casters, trap the archers, deal with the melees. Then send your fighters all the way up to the wall trapping that is trapping archers, before you drop concentration. 3: Find steed/Find Greater Steed: Good picks, I would hold out for greater steed, as you can usually just buy a warhorse if you want a steed. 2: Spirit Guardians: This is an amazing spell, but it requires concentration, and you are no cleric, you don't (usually) have the AC to stand on the frontline. Remember, every time you are concentrating on Spirit Guardians, you are not concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern, which is at least equally amazing, and already on your list. Spirit guardians, might still be a good pick, the damage is really good . But it doesn't deserve the number 2 spot, concentration is really holding this back. 1: Counterspell: Yes, this would be my number 2 after wall of force. Just all the yes for counterspell. Spells I feel are missing from the list, -Revivify: You might not cast it much, but it is great when you need it. This adds something to the bard they couldn't do before at all, and is not concentration. -Shield: Because not dying is great. -Simulacrum: This spell is awesome, you now have 2 counterspellers, and two people to hold concentration on those wall of force spells, cutting any encounter into nice little bite sized chunks for your fighters to eat up. Because what is better than 1 high level spell caster? 2 high level spell casters. Regardless, I always say this about the bard, pick hypnotic pattern, and you will be fine, so if you feel like picking something weird with your magical secrets, go for it, and if an encounter looks tough, throw down a hypnotic pattern, and you will usually be fine.
If im correct thanks to tasha's cauldron of everything telepathic bond should be available as bard spell so that means you dont need to waste magical secrets to obtain it
I really like Spiritual Weapon for my Melee-oriented bards, specially when I'm using my bardic inspirations for flourishes and things of the sort. Tenser's Transformation, Storm Sphere, Fabricate, Death Ward, Holy Weapon, all offer some great options too from my past characters' experience
I was so surprised you did not have Find Familiar in the top 10 as you seem to love it and it would even allow you to use it as a Ritual. I also feel that all Spell casting primary classes should have counterspell.
If every spell caster in the game gets counterspell that includes all the monsters. There's a big danger that once someone casts a spell you end up in a big counterspell counterspell chain everytime. That's really going to drain every magic users spell slots. Leaving your innate spellcasting monsters to run amok. Careful what you wish for ...
I highly recommend the spell steel wind strike. Not just is it the most anime sounding spell you also get to choose 5 creatures within 30 feet and against each of them you make a melee spell attack and on a hit deal 6d10 force damage and if your a sword or valor bard that needs to close the distance you can teleport to any of the 5 targets
Wait, in regards to wish, those listed options DO trigger the chance to never cast wish again. The quote is "The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you," which includes the ones listed in the spell description, doesn't it?
I think bard technically are arcane casters, but I agree. I think it's a fair trade off. Counterspell makes for really cool moments, but every single caster on the field having it could turn into a mess very quickly.
I’m all for other classes having access to Counterspell but a lore reason for not having it might be that it requires an in depth knowledge of how spells are cast. With all the other casters who don’t get it a lot of their magic is them believing in something or following ritual. Like, they don’t know how the sausage is made most of the time
*Sorcerer laughs in inheriting magic powers because dad stuck his dick where it didn't belong* and *Warlock laughs in receiving magic from their magical sugar daddies*
One of my 3rd lvl picks for lore bard is Conjure Animals so I can summon 8 elk and beat my drum as I have them all charge into battle. I think it’s an underrated pick.
Personally my favorite magical secret choice is Armor of Agathys, especially on college of swords and valor bards. It's always a great way to do more damage and increase survivability in melee, and it scales really well for a first level spell.
It's especially great for facing armies of minions, like a horde of skeletons or similar, because their attacks don't do much damage, and the spell only ends once the temp HP is completely removed - but the attacker receives the full amount of damage each time! It totally wrecks them... It's totally passive too, no spending your reaction or anything... so like if you get surrounded by 6 skeletons, you cast a 6th level Armour of Agathys to protect yourself, and they attack, each doing 5 damage, that's 30 damage total, ending it on the last one that attacks - but each skelly will get a 30 cold damage blast, killing all of them one by one as they attack... you've effectively spent 6 actions worth of economy and didn't have to move to reposition (like if for an AoE like a fireball) or anything
@@Alternatestories the hexblade warlock build is stronger mechanically as far as the melee attack elements go, but flavorwise there are a lot of reasons you may not want your bard bound down to a patron. plus sticking to bard means higher level spell slots are gotten sooner. Casting it one level higher means an extra 5 damage to anyone that hits you per attack, so the stronger armor of agathys can largely balance things out against the hexblade dip. It is especially powerful against enemies that get several weak attacks. So there are plenty of reasons to just stay pure bard.
One of my favorite spells was Conjure Animals. To make it easier for my DM, I created laminated cards of creatures that I liked to summon with all the stats necessary. My in-game bard made his own deck of cards with all the animals he has seen and read about. If he was in combat, he would basically play Yu-Gi-Oh.
Everyone doesn't have counter spell because it is a busted spell. Most spells take an action to cast. Counter spell is a reaction to cast. Trading a reaction for a full action is devastating for the action economy. And the spell just feels bad. Players love counterspell until the DM starts packing spellcasters with access to it to compete in the arms race of counterspell vs counterspell. The spell is bad and shouldn't even be in the game. At the very least it should be a 4th or 5th level spell for the sort of power swing it creates and how abused it can be with counterspell vs counterspell. Combat shouldn't boil down to which side has more characters able to cast counterspell.
Re: Meta-gaming telepathy, the group should have also practiced and discussed tactics outside of combat. Real fighters drill because of high stakes (death), so it's reasonable adventures would do the same. Also, it's a game, so I wouldn't let a little game chat get you down. Some DMs encourage talk, especially at the end of each round. It can make things more cinematic. Still, I take the point you were making. Great video!
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10 - Destructive Wave 02:46
9 - Wish 04:30
8 - Pass Without Trace 07:58
7 - Telekinesis 09:15
6 - Rary's Telepathic Bond 13:03
5 - Fireball/Lightning Bolt 15:08
4 - Wall of Force 16:26
3 - Find Steed/Find Greater Steed 19:20
2 - Spirit Guardians 21:25
1 - Counterspell 23:09
can't believe you didn't include conjure fey. it can be used in combat to summon meat shields, do damage , with pixie and dryad it trade one spell slot for multiple spells. And you can use it during down time. It also a great pre rest burn spell. Use all your spell slot to cast it/upcast it and summon dryad and get a ton of good berries for the next day. Summon giant snake and get enough poison to coat ll your weapons etc.
you could replace pass without a trace, find steed, and spirit guardians on that list just with that one spell.
@@aaronjjacques I assume you mean conjure woodland beings? Because conjure fey only summons an fey shaped as an animal.
So you know with Conjure Woodland beings you don't get to pick what you summon right? You don't get to pick what you summon for any of these spells. You pick a challenge rating and then the DM gets to decide whatever they want. Also no where does it say you can milk a giant snake to get poison to coat your weapons? What rule are you sighting for that? If the creature dies and leaves no corpse behind, what makes you think you can gather venom from a creature that doesn't technically exist.
You also know that Find Steed is non concentration, non dispell-able and lasts until the creature dies right? If it doesn't get destroyed, it stays indefinitely. But no let's replace a constant companion that can watch all night while we sleep and travel with us as long as we want for our one concentration spell.
"I've learned the secrets to magical power, the possibilities are endless, I can manipulate the weave and bend it to my will, I have-"
"So you picked fireball again"
"Yes."
Can say without a doubt that a Scanlan picking Counterspell as one of his secrets was the best choice made by any player for the entire first CR campaign.
Yep from watching critical role I think a lot of people thought, myself included, that counter spell was on the bard list.
It is honestly such a must have on bard that it is weird that it is not on the list by default.
Hopefully Tasha's fixes this!
Just imagine what would happen if he had Glibness. That one 9th level counterspell against Vecna would have not been needed, he could have just used the regular 3rd level spell slot and wouldn't have had to even roll, cause the minimum would've been above 20.
@@zulokraanhercule4128 Yeah I realized that too while watching this video, but man was that player exchange amazing.
i noticed that it didnt seem like scanlan was rolling it properly tho, its a spellcasting ability check, but he didnt add jack of trades to that, could have been a stronger counterspell lol
Better than Percy giving Grog a title?
Find Greater Steed combined with a 1-2 level dip in Hexblade is a powerful combination. Access to Shield and Armor of Agathys, which affect both you and your mount, gives you survivability and maneuverability to do all your bard stuff and deal some damage.
Under rated combo there
take primal savagery for even more martials lul
the big advantage of a bard getting find steed is that the number of spells you can then use for share spells is huge -- enlarge is on the bard spell list now so BAM you become large and your steed becomes huge.
@@crr4kk810 OMG yes! I was just leaving a comment that spells like PS and Vampiric Touch technically target the caster while harming another creature so you can have a vampire horse or an acidic horse or if you pick Dragon Breath a MFing fire breathing horse.
I planned on taking hexblade as a 2 level dip for my lore bard (that already has 1 lvl of arcana cleric). Adding the steed and AoA never even occurred to me and it’s brilliant. Thanks.
When I play Valor Bard, I love to pick up Steel Wind Strike and Holy Weapon.
Only two I can think of to add are Aura of Vitality for more healing focused bard and Steel Wind Strike for more interesting damage option.
1/2 caster spells are powerful for the level of spell: aura of vitality, crusader's mantle, swift quiver, etc. I love spirit guardians but your average lore bard is not gonna want to be that close to the enemies.
My level three bard with only 18 hit points agrees, I'm stayinh 35 feet from any enemy
The lvl 11 bard with swift quiver...
Not swift quiver.
@@captianbacon no need to poke fun.
@@williamturner6192 pokefun? Thats actually a really good build.
for me, some of the best spells are from the paladin/ranger list. I prefer a more Magus-y playstyle, casting spells to enhance my weapons, and I love the idea of the Whispers college, so the spells Steel Wind Strike and Swift Quiver are awesome.
Circle of Power is also an amazing buff spell, which really fits in with the Bard, being able to reduce damage that their allies take also means that they won't have to spend spells on healing them, nor inspiration on saving throws as often.
Elemental/Holy Weapon is really good to buff an ally, or even yourself in a pinch.
Banishment is also a good option. particularly on the Eloquence bard. you can set yourself up for them to subtract a BI die roll from the save, which is nasty.
Find Greater Steed can also be OP, as you mentioned. if you're able to get your hands on a Ring of Spell Storing, that's arguably a mount for the whole party, given a week or so to pass it around, at which point you as a party have flying mounts.
Conjure Woodland Beings is also really nice, and as an added bonus, you get to roleplay that "Snow White singing the birds out of the trees" as a bard.
Stoneskin is also nice to get, either for yourself as a "get out of jail" card, or for someone else in the party.
Call Lightning is my go-to spell for damage, it's concentration, so you can get a good amount of damage out of it
other than that, I do like the "staple" spells that the bards don't get. Counterspell, Lightning Bolt, Fireball, etc.
I think all Arcane full-casters should have access to Counterspell, makes sense to allow the wielders of full arcane magic to disrupt other caster's magics.
Big fan of Thunder Step, which I took at 6 as a Lore Bard. More than once it saved our wizard or druid from getting eaten by something XD. Also Bigby's Hand, which can serve offensive, defensive, and utility purposes.
One of my favorite pick ups was Steel Wind Strike on my college of swords bard. Any capstone spell for half casters are amazing for magical secrets
Steel Wind Strike is a personal fav to grab. That spell is just anime as hell. It’s also really good if you combine it with Greater Invisibility the turn before. Better chance to hit, and subsequently to crit, on each strike.
Is it on each strike or just the first one though? Cause I've seen people contradict on this subject before.
Started playing a bard this weekend, so I’m super happy about this video
The spell Slow made a fantastic magical secrets choice until it was added to the Bard spell list in the class features UA.
Haste is still top tier though.
Idk why they don’t get those Normally , I think of bards as Control / Support and those 2 spells scream bard
@@kylemullen5341 I think it's a matter of making bards "too powerful" and taking away from the Wizard
@@arisirote8404 w/ Secrets they can snipe any spells so I guess making an argument for them having any spell kinda don’t work
Wizard has more spell flexibility I think their advantage,
Played bard b4 and found that I always wanted more spells then I cud take .
But haste is one of the best buff spells and think bards shud get it w/o have to use their secret
@@kylemullen5341 Actually, Bards get more spells than Wizards.
Even though they can know (in the book) up to 386 spells, they can only have a small number prepared at a time.
Where as bards with magical secrets actually get more total spells per day on average than any other class.
Although having played a bard myself I do have to say that the appetite for having more spells is unending.
@@arisirote8404 Wizards (DM dependence) if they find scrolls get Crazy spell counts , Also It sounds weird but that fact they don’t get healing spells frees up their choices abit , I find party’s kinda lean on bards to make sure they have those heal spells .
Kinda wish bards had a arcane recovery feature connected to the more caster based sub classes
21:10 My level 7 Lore Bard in our current campaign "someday I shall play Pegasus Fantasy while riding an actual pegasus, someday..."
I'm getting closer to picking my first magical secrets (probably still a year away from now 😂)
I intend on picking Immovable Object alongside Counterspell.
Seems like a really fun spell to mess around with
I'm surprised no one else in the comments has mentioned spiritual weapon.
Simple answer:Action economy. Bardic inspiration, healing word and animate objects can conflict with this. Sure it's not concentration, but SO many excellent 2nd/3rd level spells and literally so little time. Leave the Spiritual weapon and Spiritual Guardians to the party Cleric. If no party Cleric then go for it! But it is rool noice.
I really like spiritual weapon but with amount of choice available it's hard to pick it over something else
I really like phantasmal killer. It's only available on a couple subclass and wizards and I really like the flavor of the spell. Lvl 4 spell isn't so bad either
This is a great list. I'd say a couple that I love that aren't mentioned are Aura of Vitality (especially pared with a life cleric dip), Disintegrate, Bless, Heal and Heroes Feast
Magic Jar Simulacrum and Clone. Also Haste Shield and Mage Armor work well with Find Steed. I agree that Wish and Counterspell are a must.
Building a lore bard version of Overwatch’s Sombra...Destructive Wave shall make a great EMP ult equivalent. Everything can be hacked, and everyone!
My Collage of Blades bard took Steel Wind Strike, partly because it's really good and thematic, partly because one of my inspirations for him is Nightcrawler.
Find Greater Steed and Haste are pretty good bread and butter picks. Your mount's gotta go fast, and it will typically allow them to make a second attack unless you decide to Dash or Disengage. The +2 AC plus any barding you might have is really solid too.
Only downside is that failing your concentration check means you both lose your actions, making War Caster and/or Resilient Constitution really valuable safety measures.
I'd recommend picking flashy reliable spell that are going to be iconic to you plus counter spell.
Animate dead, resilient sphere, heroes feast, fireball, haste, slow, telekinesis, destructive wave, spirit guardians, bless, find stead, find familiar, wish, bigby's hand.
Get a flashy old reliable, something to be known for, that's kinda the bards thing.
This is such a well traveled topic, but everyone's flavor is different and I live hearing people's opinion on it.
If you’re picking up a valor bard at later levels for a oneshot or something, magical secrets charisma-based shillelagh can save you a lot of ability score increases, especially if you can’t multiclass into pact of the tome warlock
Top two are pretty obvious. They're just so very, very good. The real interesting bits are the rest of the list and the reasoning. The one spell I'd be tempted to put on my list is Revivify. That can really save your group in a bad spot.
honorable mention: pulse wave !! almost the same damage as fireball and lightning bolt and can push/pull
That intro bit had me thinking of Highlander, when he rescues the girl from the Nazis. "Shhh, it's a certain kind of magic". ...Need to go and re-watch Highlander now. :)
No one's suggesting Mirror Image. Goes well with any of the steeds and its a good alternative to the usual 6th level Fireball/Lightning (those get old and damage isn't YOUR thing anyway). Also it doesn't require concentration which is usually a big problem with bards (no con save proficiency, low con stats, low AC, and a lot of other stuff that you use occupy it already-- charms, illusions, etc) Revivify is best left to clerics and wizards anyway imo. Maybe an escape spell like thunder step or misty. Usually you have that down already at 6th. Counterspell is a staple if you can't rely on other casters to have it and you use it best anyway.
Oh Haste is another one that couples both with your offensive frontline and your mount, though once again, concentration plus no saves makes for a pickle. And this one has a pretty big drawback on dropping concentration on it.
my big ones i go for is Revivify and Spiritual Weapon
Surprised fly didn't get mentioned. Its super useful especially if you are a lore bard and can get it at level 6
My go-to Secrets are almost always just Necromancy spells because Bards are my favorite way to play Necromancers, honestly.
Crypt of the Necrodancer
I will say, I will always be a fan of this game plan:
- Take Glyph of Warding and Planar Binding. (Bard Spells)
- Take Magic Circle and Infernal Calling. (Secrets)
*Steps*
Cast Glyph of Warding + Infernal Calling (200 GP + 1 Hour / 999 GP + 1 Minute)
- Make the condition that sets it off a command word. A made-up word works best for this so nobody accidentally says it.
Cast Glyph of Warding + Magic Circle (200 GP + 1 Hour / 100 GP + 1 Minute)
- Make the Magic Circle inverted and choose Fiends.
- Make the condition that sets it off the target being summoned.
Cast Planar Binding (1000 GP + 1 Hour)
*Note*
As far as I'm aware, this works. Infernal Calling is a summon spell which is covered by Glyph of Warding. Magic Circle affects an area which is covered by Glyph of Warding. Infernal Calling will stay active for its full duration. You have just enough time to cast Planar Binding on the creature, which I don't think you could do as a Glyph because the creature needs to be there for the full cast.
You don’t need to make an ability check on counterspell if the spell level is equal to or less than the spell slot used to cast counterspell.
I often try and take spiritual weapon.
Steel Wind Strike. I know there are plenty of better options but my College of Swords Bard would feel badass after casting that spell.
A few more that l like:
Guiding Bolt
Haste
Armor of Agathys
Conjure Animals/Woodland Beings
Tenser's Tranformation
Crown of Stars
Elemental Bane
Beacon of Hope/Aura of Vitality
Bigby’s is better than Telekinesis in combat. For one, after casting, you can attack, grapple, push, or defend with a bonus action every round! That’s huge! It means 9 rounds of actions IN ADDITION to Bigby’s for a minute.
Telekinesis is better for utility and duration, but by far inferior in combat.
Im a fan of Animate Objects to be honest. It's basically Animate Dead for non-humanoids, since corpses are objects.
"That's a nice dead Fire Giant you got there...."
Question for the community: Does the stress from Wish apply if you do the dot points? Are they included in the "standard" use of the spell? Is there a risk of the "never casting again" if you use one of these options? Never been sure.
Yes, the stress applies to each bulletpoint in the spell except the first: "The stress of casting this spell to produce _any effect other than duplicating another spell_ weakens you". Essentially, only duplicating a spell of 8th level or lower is safe.
@@kogarashi_kaito Cool thanks. I was never sure whether the dots were just "included" implicitly with the first statement. Never been sure how i'd rule if it came up. But i think you make a solid point.
@@Natsirt666 It's worth noting that the benefit you get from a bullet point effect is immunity to DM fuckery on your wish. The DM can only change the meaning of the wish if the player comes up with it, the bullet point effects are safe.
Revivify, shield, absorb elements, magic missile, find familiar, and misty step?
What do you think about Shadow of Moil or Circle of Power for a Bards Stolen Magical Secrets?
I got Eldritch Blast from another option my character has and agree cantrips are meh for stealing unless you have plans for feats.
Mate's running a high level 5th campaign with experienced gamers but using 3.5ed modules. NO modification of monster stats, traps etc. Counterspell is only available in 5th ed and it's saved their bacon time and again.
As a Lore Bard, I've been debating for the longest time between Telekinesis or Bibgy's Hand. I'm about to turn lvl10 and still can't decide. Any thoughts ? Suggestions ?
Hmmm, just made a College of Whispers Bard 10/ Rogue Assassin 3 for an existing DotMM game. Took Steel Wind Strike and Booming Blade. Was gonna take Inflict Wounds but Booming Blade//Psychic Blades/ Sneak Attack is too good to pass up, specially as a cantrip.
For cantrips and 1st-level spells like inflict wounds, why not take magic initiate instead of using a magical secrets choice on them?
@@-d_9894 That's a very good observation. For inflict wounds, the answer is pretty simple. I want to be able to upcast at will and cast it more than once a day. As for Booming Blade, my ASIs are accounted for. While I have strong DPs, class wise, I'm a controller so I need the CHA bumps. As a multi class, I only have 2 ASIs. Might go back and look at it though
If im not multiclassing just raw bard. My lvl6 secrets (lore ) are usually spare the dying and fireball.
nice set of spells. I'm about to multiclass into lore bard after playing a paladin I wasn't sure what to take, I was leading haste but this makes me rethink.
if your main class is a paladin than I wholly recommend haste.
@@Greginda11 cheers
Shield or counterspell can help you more than haste, IMHO concentration spells are no good for tank-like characters.
@@mke3053 if one is looking for flat out damage than as a paladin haste is supreme. also paladins get to add their cha mod to con checks making it alot easier to concentrate, if one gets resilient or already has prof in con than the odds of failing are really low.
@NerdImmersion With Fireball and Counterspell as options @ 6th level for Lore Bards, it's really hard to rationalize other spells like Pass w/o Trace. Love the spell, but filling in the bard's lack of damage potential with Fireball is SO helpful. I'm playing Curse of Strahd right now and when we're trying to avoid encounters I've used my Cha-based skills to do so. When s**t hits the fan and combat is inevitable, I've been really thankful I've got Fireball in my back pocket.
Wow, I like the list but I'm surprised you didn't say aura of vitality. A lot of people recommend a level in life cleric and aura of vitality and goodberry
Do you think you will do an updated version with the release of Tashas Cauldron?
I definitely see the appeal in wanting a cantrip with an attack roll if you're playing a bard. But you're right, using one of your magical secrets for it seems like a missed opportunity for something else.
Especially when you can just take magic initiate for that cantrip.
Doesn’t spellcasting skill modifier incorporate your proficiency for every class?
Telepathic bond is like meta gaming but not meta gaming
Eh... I keep hearing different rulings for Wish that anything other then copying another 8th or lower lv spell has a chance to get rid of it. Including the recommended options.
The spell description itself specifically says that.
"The stress of casting this spell to produce *any effect other than duplicating another spell* weakens you... there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress."
There really shouldn't be any other ruling on it, it's specifically spelled out.
The benefit of the bullet point effects is that the DM does not have leverage over the effect of the wish. It can still make you never cast wish again, but if you wish for you and your companions to all be resistant to bludgeoning damage, that will happen as intended with no possible drawbacks (other than not casting wish).
This is very useful considering I'm making a 7th level Lore bard...
A Warlock with book of Ancient secret could gain access to this via Book of Ancient Secret.
Astraea my Satyr Bard only have Shatter as attack spell while rest of her kit is pure utility
Swift Quiver
HA I picked an Earth Genasi so I started with Pass Without Trace!! 😂😂
I've just considered. When you are riding a Pegasus they can only dash, disengage and dodge. So cast spirit guardians on yourself, get your Pegasus to disengage and then just use its 90ft flying to fly by each creature and make them save against spirit guardians. You can then repeat this on each of your turns AND still have your action???
Very nice.☆☆☆☆
Late to the party but I think... no...
Counterspell, lorewise, is undoing another creature's manipulation on the weave of magic, which on itself, is an arduous effort. Not everyone has the delicate approach required.
"Two Spirit Guardians is basically just a meat grinder for your enemies." I think this is implying that two overlapping Spirit Guardians stack their damage, but apparently that's incorrect: rpg.stackexchange.com/a/93082/72490
25:00 I have to agree. I personally wish Counterspell was a feature all spellcasters got as a reaction, akin to an Opportunity Attack or the Fighting Style Protection. It would read the same, such as you need to expend a spell slot, except it doesn't count against your spells known/prepared.
Where's Simulacrum?
Simulacrum.
I think only full casters should have counter spell outside of there subclasses.
Well that would mean that bards, clerics and druids should have it
@@NerdImmersion exactly, anyone who’s life style would revolve around around magic should be able to understand it well enough to counter it, but paladins and rangers I feel aren’t attuned/ informed enough about the magic they wield to have enough understanding to counter it in my opinion
@@NerdImmersion oh and also warlocks
Destructive wave was the spell of hexblade instead of con of cold .... how much better if they kept that.
Wish is the 9th choice ?? really wish can open all the other spells even if not in bard spell so its magical secrets on demand, but yeah you need to be 18th level so yeah. but like casting clone and symilacrom as an action is something alright
18th level, and there's a 33% chance you can never do it again.
@@NerdImmersion well you say that but replicating a spell doesnt induce the stress so it doesnt trigger the 33% chance you can never do it again.
@@NerdImmersion The 33% chance doesn't apply for the best use of wish, which is spell replication. Use it to create free Clone bodies for yourself, give yourself the benefits of other permanent/ long-lasting spells such as Find Greater Steed, FInd Familiar, Create Homunculus, Contingency, etc, ressurect people, make demiplanes, create infinite simulacrums of yourself/ other powerful casters you find (or just have a free simulacrum around with you if your DM doesn't run Simulacrum RAW, which is fair considering it's still overpowered even after crawford nerfs).
So many magical secret choices are good because they give ongoing benefits, and Wish gives you the benefits of all of them. Even being a late-game spell, it's absolutely a #1 pick because of its sheer utility. So much so that it should really just be on the spell list because every bard will pick it anyways.
I'm totally fine with player strategizing with each other during combat. 99% of the game is built around combat, so I say let people actually have fun with it.
Why not just say that they can strategize, but things they talk about are things enemies can hear? That incentivizes them to come up with strategies in advance and create code names for them or other secret cues, which can make them feel more like a team, more immersed in the world, and more rewarded for preparation.
I think Morekainens Faithful hound would work well. Like telekinesis it can iirc can both benefit from jack of all trades and Glibness for its atk roll.
Its also active for 8 hours can see invisible creatures and warns of intruders.
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The dunamancy stuff comes to mind and for sh**s and giggles i like to pick inmoveable object because you can be rather creative with it.
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Creation gives you a lot of out of combat utility and you could still summon weapons with it.
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Shadowblade for whispers bards.
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Combat oriented i would go:
Chromatic sphere for the damagetypes.
Ensnaring strike - ranged and cc. with a bit of persistant damage.
Branding Smite to give you allies advantage + its a ranged smite.
Holy weapon - Again you can be ranged with extra damage + the blinding thing.
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Yes to counterspell for all classes. And cantrips ... its easyer to take magic Initiate with two cantrips and anothrr spell like hex.
no circle of power?
Honestly, with your point about Counterspell, I think the spell should be re-worked in a few ways.
1) Any class that can cast spells should be able to learn this spell. If you know the workings of a spell, you should also know how to disrupt a spell. I'd almost want to give the spell for free upon reaching the level to be able to cast it, much like how I think all classes who can cast spells should know Prestidigitation for free.
2) Counterspell cannot be countered by the target caster in order to allow them to finish casting their current spell. You've seen it before in games - Spellcaster 1 casts a spell. Spellcaster 2 casts Counterspell as their reaction. Spellcaster 1 uses their reaction to Counterspell Spellcaster 2's Counterspell and their spell works. Spells tend to require verbal and/or somatic components. They're often very specific in order to work. How then can you suddenly stop casting one spell, cast another spell, then go back to casting the original spell from where you left off? I feel like if Spellcaster 1 is going to be hit with Counterspell, either another caster can use Counterspell to interrupt Spellcaster 2's Counterspell, but if Spellcaster 1 does it, they lose their first spell entirely (making it pointless to do). In all honesty, I don't think this severely nerfs Counterspell either... and it'd still be one of the most effective spells to have in the game.
I'd love to hear your opinions on these change ideas, though...
Revivify seems like an essential spell for any group. If there's no cleric, you need it. If your cleric dies, you need it. It's also excellent as a back up in groups with tough clerics.
Simulacrum could be a fun powerful spell.
Wall of force... obviously.
No, not every class that can cast spells should be able to Counterspell. Why should they? First it's one of the things that separates arcane casters from divine. Second, think about the consequences of this if all casters can counterspell. Spellcasters in general would be stymied. I cast.. counterspell. BBBEG casts... counterspell. This would make the game, casters especially, really boring.
bards already get forcecage
@@JoviaI1 Sorry meant Wall of Force
Resurrection
Got here early! Whoo!
There is ZERO logic that just because you can cast a spell or even Dispel Magic, that you by nature MUST be able to cast Counterspell. It's a spell, and if your class or archetype doesn't have access to it, it's by design. You can make ANY reasoning as to why, or why not, but clearly it has been omitted purposely, for the same reason as some casters can't cast Fireball, or whatever spell is out there. It's RAW. Do you want to change that, knock yourself out, but thems the rules! You might rationalize that perhaps Wizards are those who have access to it are getting a perk for BEING those classes by having some spells limited to themselves. Not such a novel concept given how many class-specific spells are out there. Also given that there are various means for some classes to pick it up outside these limits that the rules are working AS INTENDED. Once again, if you don't like this, do what you want at your table, but it makes perfect sense to me as it clearly does to the game's designers, but they won't be knocing down your door to confiscate your books if you choose to homebrew it otherwise ;P
I like Disintegrate and Regenerate as Magical Secrets
I honestly think that at the minimum bards should receive counterspell too since they're arcane casters.
I feel bards should get counterspell raw. The religious casters shouldn't because counterspell because its a quick reflex. Were I feel the religious casters druids,clerics palidins, rangers. Funnel there magic through the divine. Bards technically aren't arcane but if ur gonna split the casters in 2 groups I feel they fit more with the wizard and soccer vs cleric and druid.
I don’t think everyone should get Counterspell, but Bards should and I’d make that change
I also have no idea why every casting class doesn't get counterspell. That makes no sense.
I love that you find meta gaming pow wows annoying. The more I listen to different podcast the more it annoys me
Yeah its a little thing that bugs me
Wait wait wait.. why the hell would a CASTER not be PROFICIENT with their Spellcasting Ability for Telekinesis, that makes no sense..
None of them are, same with dispel magic and counterspell
@@NerdImmersion Ok so it's less that they aren't proficient with their own spellcasting ABILITY and more that you simply aren't proficient with ABILITY checks naturally.... That is still so very weird. I guess that means that Enhanceability has some ACTUAL use for counter magic users. Oh.. Guidance technically works as well.. now that's interesting...
@@AzurKutsuu and again, Jack of All Trades. Also things like the Stone if Good Luck, which provides a +1 to ability checks
See, characters can't be proficient in *ability*, they're proficient in *skills*. Or tools. You can't be proficient in Intelligence, for example, even if you're wizard. Any ability check that doesn't have a skill or tool associated with it won't have the proficiency bonus.
Someone probably already mentioned this, but the 33% chance applies any time you use wish for anything other than casting another spell.
so in the intro, he mentions this is his personal top 10, so we can't really say anything is wrong with the list, as he might just like those spells. But I still want to point out a few weaknesses and strengths of the spells he mentions. But first a few general things to keep in mind. 1: Bards actually have good damage on their list, not a lot of options, but those they have are good. (Dissonant whispers, Animate Object, Synaptic static). So if you are picking up a damage spell, you are either doing it for flavor, or because it is so much stronger than these options that it is still worth it. (I mention this, because I see the misconception that bards do poor damage, I think it stems from them having few damage spells, but the actually do good damage if you want them to).
2: a lot of the bards best spells are concentration. (Heat metal, Hypnotic pattern, Fear, Polymorph, Animate objects) So picking up even more concentration might not be the best idea.
On to the list:
10: Destructive wave. Deals okay damage, it is cool it avoids hitting allies, but not particularly spectacular. By the level you can get this, the bard has decent damage options of their own, this might be a slight upgrade, but not by much.
9: Wish, I would have put it higher on the list, copying all spell lists is awesome. Depending on what other magical secrets you have, this might give you, a familiar, Find greater steed, simulacrum, contingency, Antipathy/sympathy, all cast well ahead of your adventure.
8: Pass without Trace, a pretty good option, you only need one party member to know this, but that might be you, a worthy addition to the list.
7: Telekinesis. this is concentration, so that is not good. Animate Objects fulfills some of the same utility, and is one of the great picks already on the bard spell list. It also competes with wall of force, why give an enemy a check to escape at all?
6: Telepathic Bond, I like this spell, just not this much. Also it might only be on the wizard spell list, but being a ritual means if anyone picks up the ritual casting feat and pick wizard (which is a good idea because wizards have the most rituals), they can pick this up. Good spell though.
5: Fireball/lightning bolt: I would usually not pick these up, the great thing about them is they are not concentration. The bad thing is, you can already do damage. I think they are most appropriate on a lore bard, in a campaign you don't suspect to go much above level 9, where you get synaptic static.
4: Wall of Force, should be number one on this list. He mentions a lot of good uses for it, but not the most basic use. Which is to cut off half the enemies from the battle, essentially turning 1 deadly encounter into 2 cake walks. Don't trap all the enemies, they will come back to hunt you down in 10 minutes. Trap half the enemies, and if there is some sort of synergy between the enemies, break that up. The most simple synergy is melees protecting archers/casters, trap the archers, deal with the melees. Then send your fighters all the way up to the wall trapping that is trapping archers, before you drop concentration.
3: Find steed/Find Greater Steed: Good picks, I would hold out for greater steed, as you can usually just buy a warhorse if you want a steed.
2: Spirit Guardians: This is an amazing spell, but it requires concentration, and you are no cleric, you don't (usually) have the AC to stand on the frontline. Remember, every time you are concentrating on Spirit Guardians, you are not concentrating on Hypnotic Pattern, which is at least equally amazing, and already on your list. Spirit guardians, might still be a good pick, the damage is really good . But it doesn't deserve the number 2 spot, concentration is really holding this back.
1: Counterspell: Yes, this would be my number 2 after wall of force. Just all the yes for counterspell.
Spells I feel are missing from the list,
-Revivify: You might not cast it much, but it is great when you need it. This adds something to the bard they couldn't do before at all, and is not concentration.
-Shield: Because not dying is great.
-Simulacrum: This spell is awesome, you now have 2 counterspellers, and two people to hold concentration on those wall of force spells, cutting any encounter into nice little bite sized chunks for your fighters to eat up. Because what is better than 1 high level spell caster? 2 high level spell casters.
Regardless, I always say this about the bard, pick hypnotic pattern, and you will be fine, so if you feel like picking something weird with your magical secrets, go for it, and if an encounter looks tough, throw down a hypnotic pattern, and you will usually be fine.
If im correct thanks to tasha's cauldron of everything telepathic bond should be available as bard spell so that means you dont need to waste magical secrets to obtain it
@ZyroShadowPony yeah, it's an optional class feature for Bard. So, if your DM allows it, you can choose Rary telepathic bond as a normal spell pick
I really like Spiritual Weapon for my Melee-oriented bards, specially when I'm using my bardic inspirations for flourishes and things of the sort.
Tenser's Transformation, Storm Sphere, Fabricate, Death Ward, Holy Weapon, all offer some great options too from my past characters' experience
I was so surprised you did not have Find Familiar in the top 10 as you seem to love it and it would even allow you to use it as a Ritual.
I also feel that all Spell casting primary classes should have counterspell.
I agree. Counterspell should be available for everyone
The Azorius Functionary background gives you counterspell as extended spell list.
Divine spellcasters suffer so much because of it. Well except your a monster slayer ranger but they get it only at very high levels.
If every spell caster in the game gets counterspell that includes all the monsters. There's a big danger that once someone casts a spell you end up in a big counterspell counterspell chain everytime. That's really going to drain every magic users spell slots. Leaving your innate spellcasting monsters to run amok. Careful what you wish for ...
Noooooo
Counter Spell, Dispell Magic, a sort of Zone of Anti-Magic and some sort if targeted Silence scould be avalible for all spellcasters
I highly recommend the spell steel wind strike. Not just is it the most anime sounding spell you also get to choose 5 creatures within 30 feet and against each of them you make a melee spell attack and on a hit deal 6d10 force damage and if your a sword or valor bard that needs to close the distance you can teleport to any of the 5 targets
Also, you have the potential of critting on those attacks. First thing I'm picking up at level 10.
Wait, in regards to wish, those listed options DO trigger the chance to never cast wish again. The quote is "The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you," which includes the ones listed in the spell description, doesn't it?
Yep seems to be the case, from what I could gather with my research and reading comprehension skills.
Correct, they just have no chance of not working properly
I think it's fine that only arcane gets counterspell as they don't typically get healing
That's a prettt good point actually
Thanks, I try
I think bard technically are arcane casters, but I agree. I think it's a fair trade off. Counterspell makes for really cool moments, but every single caster on the field having it could turn into a mess very quickly.
@@ryansprenkle6356 I think bards use bardic magic which is it's own thing
@@anthonynorman7545 I think technically theres only arcane and divine magic. It also depends on the DM and the world they're running.
I’m all for other classes having access to Counterspell but a lore reason for not having it might be that it requires an in depth knowledge of how spells are cast. With all the other casters who don’t get it a lot of their magic is them believing in something or following ritual. Like, they don’t know how the sausage is made most of the time
*Sorcerer laughs in inheriting magic powers because dad stuck his dick where it didn't belong* and *Warlock laughs in receiving magic from their magical sugar daddies*
I couldn't agree more with OP
Steel wind Strike, Haste
One of my 3rd lvl picks for lore bard is Conjure Animals so I can summon 8 elk and beat my drum as I have them all charge into battle. I think it’s an underrated pick.
tecnically you can't choose the animals, it gets a bit OP if the player does this. Some DM still allow for it though...
counterspell + glibness = 23 minimum on a bard. You auto counter 9th level spells
Personally my favorite magical secret choice is Armor of Agathys, especially on college of swords and valor bards. It's always a great way to do more damage and increase survivability in melee, and it scales really well for a first level spell.
It's especially great for facing armies of minions, like a horde of skeletons or similar, because their attacks don't do much damage, and the spell only ends once the temp HP is completely removed - but the attacker receives the full amount of damage each time! It totally wrecks them...
It's totally passive too, no spending your reaction or anything... so like if you get surrounded by 6 skeletons, you cast a 6th level Armour of Agathys to protect yourself, and they attack, each doing 5 damage, that's 30 damage total, ending it on the last one that attacks - but each skelly will get a 30 cold damage blast, killing all of them one by one as they attack... you've effectively spent 6 actions worth of economy and didn't have to move to reposition (like if for an AoE like a fireball) or anything
One level dip in hex blade warlock would be infinitely better.
@@Alternatestories the hexblade warlock build is stronger mechanically as far as the melee attack elements go, but flavorwise there are a lot of reasons you may not want your bard bound down to a patron. plus sticking to bard means higher level spell slots are gotten sooner. Casting it one level higher means an extra 5 damage to anyone that hits you per attack, so the stronger armor of agathys can largely balance things out against the hexblade dip. It is especially powerful against enemies that get several weak attacks. So there are plenty of reasons to just stay pure bard.
One of my favorite spells was Conjure Animals. To make it easier for my DM, I created laminated cards of creatures that I liked to summon with all the stats necessary. My in-game bard made his own deck of cards with all the animals he has seen and read about. If he was in combat, he would basically play Yu-Gi-Oh.
I personally can't recommend Tenser's Transformation enough for bards that are even slightly melee-focused, escpecially Paladin/Bard Multiclass.
And steel wind strike
Only problem I have with Tenser's is that it takes 10 minutes to put on heavy armor :D
Or otherworldly form if you're allowed to use ua
I feel like it’s only good if you aren’t taking Counterspell as Bard, or aren’t expected to use battlefield control to enable your party.
I feel like it’s only good if you aren’t taking Counterspell as Bard, or aren’t expected to use battlefield control to enable your party.
Going for counterspell and revivify when I hit lvl 6 as my group has no cleric/druid or others that might bring people back.
Everyone doesn't have counter spell because it is a busted spell. Most spells take an action to cast. Counter spell is a reaction to cast. Trading a reaction for a full action is devastating for the action economy. And the spell just feels bad. Players love counterspell until the DM starts packing spellcasters with access to it to compete in the arms race of counterspell vs counterspell. The spell is bad and shouldn't even be in the game. At the very least it should be a 4th or 5th level spell for the sort of power swing it creates and how abused it can be with counterspell vs counterspell. Combat shouldn't boil down to which side has more characters able to cast counterspell.
THIS!!! All day every day
Re: Meta-gaming telepathy, the group should have also practiced and discussed tactics outside of combat. Real fighters drill because of high stakes (death), so it's reasonable adventures would do the same. Also, it's a game, so I wouldn't let a little game chat get you down. Some DMs encourage talk, especially at the end of each round. It can make things more cinematic. Still, I take the point you were making.
Great video!