Why Modern Movies Suck - Setup And Payoff
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- It seems like these days, even the basic elements of storytelling are becoming a dying art. Join me as I break down the concept of setup and payoff, and how today's writers seem to have forgotten how to use it.
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Ok
Love you dranker. Great work.
Or maybe, just maybe, you and I are to old for this modern times generation movies.
What we liked most are often movies we have seen when we were a lot younger.
So they make new movies for younger viewers and....I,. in their eyes, I am an...old man..They don' give a shit about me.
Maybe thats it.
And young people are brainwashed these days.
Ever watch Remo Williams?
Would be nice if you could review the movie 1408.
The director of Joker said the only way to get a film made in today's climate is to dress it up like it is a superhero film to fool the producers.
Yeah, that's probably a big reason why it was able to gross more than $1 billion despite the fact that it was basically just a gritty psychological drama with a budget of only around $50 million.
When did he state this? He actually planned for the film to be a Joker origin story from the beginning. All the left wing journalists tried to claim its a dressed up Martin Scorsese flick but its not-Todd said a year or two before Deadpool that he wanted to try the idea out but Warner was iffy on it-then Deadpool and Logan came out and that’s when they thought about that offer and decided to start giving new ideas like that a chance.
Well played.
@@NexusKin please it was just babys first taxi driver blended with joker. It was a good film and very timely but taxi driver is very good and it rides the line of rip off and homage
@@Dev-zr8si are you a journalist?
This reminds me of an interview they did with Trey Parker and Matt Stone on how they write South Park. They said when they story board an episode they never use the word "then" for a next scene, they always have to use the words "Because". This makes South Park such a great show because the stories in each episode have situational humor that builds on itself on an insane but rational way.
Causality and believability...so important.
Family guy says hold my beer 🍻 and it's the complete opposite higher ratings
@@emojimr4427 That is true but Family Guy knows its extreme non-continuity and makes that part of the humor.
South Park, the last great cartoon.
Okay, the grade school kids swear in this scene BECAUSE the audience is dumb and it works every time. Yeah, GENIUS.
When I was a kid, I was genuinely excited about the future of special effects. Now, in the era of perfect CGI, I realise that not once did I ever contemplate that writing would become a lost art.
unfortunately the importance of the story is also lost on video games.. graphics are the top priority now while in most games the story line gets second or worse place
@@SatanenPerkele cgi is best for things like backgrounds and stuff. It can be used really well, but when it comes to actual living characters, it still falls flat every time.
It's not CGI's fault. It's a tool that's intended to enhance the credibility and enticement of the storyline, but people are using it as the main event. The expense of CG didn't remove costs from old school film effects, but instead made them stupid expensive. Unfortunately, it's drawing funding away from other aspects of film, namely quality. Hopefully, this ship will right itself soon so summer blockbusters will be the worth the money being charge dat the venue.
Have you ever played the game Seventh Guest? It came on CD's. Many CD's. In a time where graphics were getting decidedly better. Yet as more and more of these games came out, that looked great on the surface, but had no substance people started demanding games that were actually good. You can see it today, in the lo-fi movement, where independent game studios produce pixel art games, except despite the blocky art, the games are actually very good and extremely playable. For that reason, many peeps have started to look at pixel art as a sign of quality, even though it was a major limitation in its time.
I think Jurassic park is one of the very few films that used CGI perfectly. All modern movies gives me headaches because of the uncanny valley, and the stupidity of the plot
Just watched the kung fu panda series and its pretty insulting that these kids movies deliver so much more on their setups and payoffs than the whole sequel trilogy.
Culture is literally changing and Media reflects that but Media is also the
Cause, cause it's all symbiotic.
For example, Quotes from the
12.Doctor: "Oh, the Mechanized Space-Suits malfunction and attack us? That's funny cause that means we're like Anyone-else Everywhere-else: We're fighting the Suit!"
12.Doctor:"What makes you feel so superior? It it the good House?
But Human-Progress isnt measured by Industry, it's measured by looking at a Life.
An unimportant Life... a life without privilege.
13.Doctor: "OMG, OMG, OMG, have you heard of Space-Amazon?
Amazon is so epic, everyone who disagrees with that is a literal PIG. We should all
stop criticizing Amazon forever."
I kid you not, they said that. Holy Penguin, wtf.
And yeah, Critical Drinker's massive Success with his 'Why modern movies s-ck'-video-SERIES speaks for itself. People DO want Quality back.
King Fu panda is a legend who deserves all the best, but there are so many ways the Star Wars sequels could have been good and none of them were achieved.
Kung Fu panda is so genius in so many levels that we mortals cannot fully comprehend it's awesomeness
To be fair, Kung Fu Panda was always one of the best animated movies out there. Up there with the first 2 HTTYD, Coco, Spirited Away and Watership Down.
@@utisti4976 the whole panda trilogy is so consistent with its themes throughout. Po goes through a a satisfying arc and really grows as a character, a true hero by the end.
"Not winning any Oscars" is a compliment at this point, not going to lie.
True
Yep, means you actually made a real film
Word.
Like winning an Oscar means anything anymore.
Same bs as most Rock n Roll Hall of Fame intros nowadays. I avoid that stuff since some years.
"Somehow Palpatine returned"
Atleast give us some reasoning. He was brought by the Dragon Balls or he had the monkey's paw up his ass anything but "somehow"
Thought it was the resurrection stone 🤣
It's like they're not even trying. It's so insulting to the audience.
(improbable army pops out of nowhere with improbable planet-killiing weapons)
"so that's how they want to play it"
In all due fairness to this much maligned film, I have to tip my hat to J.J. Abrams for "The Rise Of Skywalker." In many blockbusters, you have to wait an hour or two before you realize you're watching a load of crap. Not this time! Abrams lets the cat out of the bag during the opening credits crawl.
They used the mother box 😆
I remember when Die Hard was considered a dumb action movie. Just re-watch it and compare it with almost any modern action movie, and you see how neat and clever it is in comparison.
It was based off of a book too, so it's a lot more detailed on what goes on
Back then, a bad movie was still a pretty good movie. Now it's the other way around.
@@dani_i8942 Not really lol
@Sean Deli What's wrong with Eagle Eye?
Dan Harmon would approve of this comment. He uses Die Hard extensively in his discussion on the Story Circle structure.
I'd always thought it was quite clever how in the film, "The Incredibles", there is a piece of dialog that sets up two payoffs later. Mrs Incredible and her son Dash, who has super speed, argue that he should be allowed to compete in a running race if he promises not to use his super powers. She says it's unfair on the other boys, Dash says that he's special and she replies that everybody is special. Dash responds that that's just another way of saying nobody is special.
Later in the film Mr Incredible is up against the bad guy who says he is going to sell his super hero tech so anybody can be a superhero and if anybody can be super then nobody will be super. So that leads back to the earlier conversation.
Even later in the film, Dash is allowed to race but is mature enough to hold back so he doesn't win. So that setup dialog leads to two payoffs later. I just hadn't thought of it in those terms.
Animated movies tend to be better about this sort of thing because they have to be planned and storyboarded so meticulously. You can't just do reshoots, and cuts have to be made early on so as not to waste resources animated scenes that won't make it into the film. So with that super-robust pre-production phase, it's no surprise that there tends to be stronger setup and payoff.
IMO The Incredibles' most iconic use of setup and payoff is the cape gag! Edna's rant and the accompanying "vintage footage" is so funny and surprisingly dark that nobody suspects it's doing anything but providing a laugh. But of course, it's there for a good reason.....
@@RisingSunfish yes the "no capes" rant was also a setup with a later payoff in that movie.
He isn't mature enough to hold back so he doesn't win, his parents tell him to hold back and then to go for a 'close second'
@@30noir By the end of the movie, he's mature enough to know to hold back and to trust his parents.
His parents have told him why it is necessary, and he's learned to acknowledge their point of view. He'd also finally found an outlet to express his super-speed over the course of the previous few days. The ending scene actually shows that fairly well.
He's running *just* fast enough to beat everyone else, despite there being an enormous gap between how fast he has to run to win and how fast he can run, because by this point he no longer feels the need to be or feel special, he just wants to participate. Then, when his parents are cheering him on and then back-pedal and tell him to go for 2nd, he's initially confused, but trusts and respects their decision, rather than defy it.
The fact that such a grandiose payoff with Syndrome gets set up by a simple “ride home” conversation between a mother and son adds weight to the family theme. Love love love this movie.
It's gotten so bad that I've almost completely given up watching new movies and gone back to just rewatching old ones again..
Watch movies from other countries than your own. 👍
Ditto. I barely go to the cinema anymore.
The Daily Wire has started producing films. They are shooting one in Co now I believe. I assume they will be different from the Hollywood crap.
The Koreans are putting out some great series and movies
Same I basically given up on movies I don't even know where to go for good ones anymore.
"They aren't looking for smaller ships." Literally the first scene of the first movie involved the Empire monitoring for escape pods to catch anyone trying to flee from the attack on Leia's ship. This is specifically why she gives the Death Star plans to a droid, so they would think the pod was empty and not blast it out of the sky.
Lol
Entire plot (the last remains of the resistance continuously pursued by superior enemy fleet) was directly stolen from Battlestar Galactica
Given the history of imperial starships and battle stations being destroyed by small snub fighters, you would think that this “first order” would be looking out for small vessels at all times!
This is just one of the many incongruities with “Star Wars” canon that make me classify this drek as its own franchise I call “Disney Wars” - the writers obviously didn’t pay attention to anything that supposedly came before, so I assume that none of the real “Star Wars” plot actually occurred in the “Disney Wars” universe as there’s no way that rational characters can respond to those events in the way the “Disney Wars” characters do…
they could literally have said something stupid like "we sabotaged their high resolution scanners" and that would still be better than "they no lookie"
@@DSkulle1 I was thinking that the big ship should just overload it's systems and create some sort of interference to mask the small ships from the enemy's scanners/sensors. The small ships are too small to be seen visually. The big ship is in the center of the interference, so it can still be targeted. Once the big ship turns around to ram, the small ships are too far away from it and can be detected.
As a lifelong Tremors fan, I am deeply proud of that film for being ranked as the diametric opposite of The Last Jedi. EDIT: fine, film not franchise, whatever. Frankly I'd rank any of them as better than TLJ.
Your on the money Z.
Not gonna lie I even like the direct to video sequels. Aftershocks is genuinely just about as good as the original in my book. And the rest are all guilty pleasures, but not cuz they're terrible and bad but because they're cheesy and stuff
The spin off TV show was better than the Disney soy wars
@@jkfozul2316 I love Aftershocks as much as the original. Tremors 4 is a close third, with Back to Perfection in fourth and the rest collectively share fifth place. Iconic series.
Here's another setup & payoff example from the franchise:
Setup- Tremors 1, Val to Earl: "Shit, for all you know they can fly."
Payoff- Tremors 3 Back to Perfection: flying ass-blasters
The problem: “I (the writer) want the worms to find them in the store, but the worms only detect vibrations and the heroes know that and avoid making vibrations”
Good solution: “introduce a broken fridge early on, a background thing, that vibrates when it malfunctions. They’ll forget about it because of the stress of the worms and their focus on being quiet themselves. They’ll think they are safe because they’re doing everything right, but there’s something they didn’t account for”
Modern solution: “um… they get in a fight and start wrestling, and that attracts the worms”
I’m so tired of protagonists acting like idiots just so the plot progresses
Literally every daniel Craig bond movie
@@nickfunkhouser7096 When Drinker makes such Analysis-Video as this here, his resemblance to youtubers like Hbomberguy, Some More News and Madvocate Peaks.
Wouldn't the good solution be _fridging_ the scene?
Tremors 🖤🖤🖤
yes, you understand the writing process
"Snarky humour" Is what well and truly bothers me about movies nowadays. Modern Star wars is a perfect example of this.
Unwatchable cringe.
It's ""humor"", a very weak banter made of one-line comments
@@uzytkownik15 Agreed, its banter without the humor IE moaning knobheads, can't stand it
Sassy banter lol. Screams "millennials are in charge now".
The original Star Wars was full of that. The banter between Han and Leia is a prime example.
"But ultimately, we're the ones who let them get away with it." A truism that applies to everything, including politics.
I boycott stuff that I know will be crap. I still haven’t seen any of the recent Star Wars films. My time is too valuable. Game of Thrones sucked me in with the first six seasons enough to watch the concluding two, which pissed me off immensely.
We let them get away with it because there are few alternatives. The movie industry is one giant good ol' boys club.
@@hendrikscheepers4144 I think doing Disney+ and supporting good Star Wars is fine. Just don’t see the bad ones in theatre. Mando and bad batch and clone wars all make me happy :)
@@Steven-nd1pz few alternatives? Are you kidding? The amount of entertainment available now is more than anyone could ever consume in their entire life, even if no other movies are ever made. There are enough good movies and TV shows that already exist that you could never watch one made after say the year 2000 and still never run out of things to watch. Or you could just do something besides sit in front of a screen if you had to. There are innumerable alternatives.
@@craigwelter5862 he meant alternative big budget films.
The fact that a B rated movie in the 90s is 1000x better than anything “mainstream” today tells you everything you need to know.
Well, for one thing, they didn't have to check off a million & a half stupid check-boxes to placate a zillion different special-interest groups in those days... They just made movies.
@@MrPGC137 so sad. those were truly simpler and purer times. the 80s and 90s were peak human civilization, and you can never convince me otherwise.
@@Sliider36 True; that's one of the few reasons I don't really miss going to the movies that much anymore. There's just nothing worth seeing anymore, besides a bunch of dumb cookie-cutter comic-book movies that are all the same. The last really good movies I saw within the last 5 years or so were, "Joker," Ford vs. Ferrari," "Stan and Ollie," "1917," and "They Shall Never Grow Old," the last of which wasn't even a 'movie' per se but a documentary. And that's _IT._ I personally wouldn't give a ha'penny for the total combined output of all Hollywood put together in all that time otherwise.
tremors is so underrated.
@@creativeideas5985 Its not I like it.
10:28 - "...you chip away at your audiences investment in your story, because they realize that at any moment, some random bullshit device or character that's never been mentioned before could pop up and completely undo everything that's happening."
Nailed it.
The Last Jedi actually uses anti-setup, where an early scene establishes that a later event makes no sense:
1. Early the resistance has a portable phone to easily call maz kanata on a distant planet, later they need a special giant transmitter to call for help.
2. Early Leia gives Rei a tiny bracelet to track her ship through lightspeed, later they don't understand how the enemy tracks ships through lightspeed.
Wtf lol... wtf lmao
I hate this film so much. Maybe the only one (certainly the only recent one) that's had me actually shouting at the screen whilst watching it for the first time.
(the scene where Holdo inexplicably refuses to explain her plan to one of her highest ranking officers despite obvious discontent brewing amongst the rest of the crew - and why did she refuse to explain it? Actually no reason at all. GARBAGE! UTTER FUCKING GARBAGE!)
Entire plot (the last remains of the resistance continuously pursued by superior enemy fleet) was directly stolen from Battlestar Galactica
@@albogypsy2842 Only that episode of BSG (“33”) wasn’t shit.
@@KindredBrujah And yet, we all go watch the next SW movie ;)
"Writing is the one thing you have complete control over."
That's not really true. Big Hollywood movies pretty much always have last-second rewrites due to studio-mandated changes. "This focus group didn't like the ending." "Put this in there so we can sell toys based on it." "Censors in China won't like this." "This actor just got cancelled on Twitter, so cut all of the scenes he's in." "This character is popular, so make his part bigger." "This actor put up money for this movie, and he wants to be the main character."
This has now become the sad reality. Where movies are churned out like fast food. But I think there’s light at the end if the tunnel. I think producers and studios will eventually realise that no one’s interested in their BS and will eventually fall back to the old days..but it will take at least another ~ 10 odd years
@@shiladitya_biswas Im sure thats what some thought 10 years ago, and yet here we are. Worse off than we were before. =/
You forgot the most common one.
Netflix: "Uhh, so it has no gay, trans or black people? How about we just make the previously white guy black?"
Oh sweet! Possum’s here! 😁
The reason behind this are trends. Trends sell movie tickets, not quality. I blame us (the viewers), because the majority just blindly consumes every piece of crap big studios present to us. If the majority doesn't care (or maybe they do care but still go to pay for the movie) abour good writing, good storytelling and consistency, guess what, neither do producers . I won't even comment merchendising, recycling, woke crap and China
One of my favorite examples of planting and paying off is in "Aliens", when early on, Burke mentions that Ripley's had to take a job operating power loaders and tries to entice her to join the mission by saying the Company will reinstate her flight status. While he says that it's great she's keeping busy, he's definitely implying that she took a job beneath her skills. So not only is it a great example of planting, it's a great example of story irony in that Ripley, having to had to take a job that's beneath her, actually learned how to use the machine that will allow her to defeat the queen alien.
Not only that, we get Burke mentioning it once in 1 sentence. Then we see Ripley demonstrating that skill herself later. So we get 2 seeds...and 2 hours to almost entirely forget about it...and then the movie reminds us that it was important *in the entire climax of the film.*
God, that setup/payoff is glorious.
Wow... you figured that all out by yourself??
Great observation and it it so smooth it just goes through like good whiskey.
@@brandonice9137 it's called illustrating a point. Don't be a dick. It's unprpvoked and uncalled for.
@@Theomite Not only that but it also sets the piece on how she gains the respect from the most important members of the marine squad that she is going to accompany on the mission by showing how she's willing to get her hands dirty.
Writing is all done by focus group now, which is what makes the storytelling so bad. My brother worked for MPC. While there, he worked on Ad Astra (he is in the credits). The entire orangoutang scene (which has nothing to do with the plot) was added because focus groups said the first half of the movie was too boring.
omg
That's so annoying. Got any other interesting tidbits about all that?
The monkey might be the best thing in that movie. :)
Interestingly enough, I thought the monkey scene was great. BECAUSE it made me ask unending questions about capitalism and pharmaceuticals and corporate interests in the universe that these monkeys would be where they were, and while the film did occasionally nod at how those things are shitty, the film never really comments further on those topics beyond just how empty capitalism makes everything feel. My point is it was great as a scene if it was built on later but it was just abandoned. So many American films try to have depth by suggesting that it might have some social commentary or something worth saying and they always stop short of having an opinion and puss out.
@@fenderslasher5538 "So many American films try to have depth by suggesting that it might have some social commentary or something worth saying and they always stop short of having an opinion and puss out." You cannot be serious. I refuse to believe it's possible for someone to be this stupidly ignorant. ALL movies have Leftist political garbage now. ALL movies try to criticise Capitalism (as they get rich from Capitalism). With how daft you are it's not surprising you fell for the anti-Capitalism meme.
Even the beginning of Tremors has Val waking up Earl by pretending that there was a stampede going on. And he thinks back to it when using the dynamite at the end as well. What a great film.
Still one of my favorites.
There were so many seemingly throwaway or irrelevant beats in the first 20 minutes of that flick, and almost every one of them comes back into play later
It's so funny how that movie ended up being such a cult classic. It's a total B-movie but somehow it works and keeps you entertained.
Man now I wanna go watch it again
@@logicaldude3611 B movie from the 80s. Has better acting, writing, special/practical fx, directing... It's really sad how far, downhill the movie industry has gone in the past 10-15years.
Classic Star Trek would have said something along the lines of "they have likely calibrated all their sensors to more effectively track large ships, small transports at this range may not show up on their sensors at all", then when they figure it out someone would say something like "recalibrate our sensors to their normal wavebands!".
Instead we got "lol they're not looking" and "run our anti-scan cloak decloaking scan", like they made it a point to write dialog using only the 1000 most common words in English.
This is an excellent underlying point. Appeal to the target audience. It's almost as if people are proud of their lack of intelligence.
@@SchiesterMalG You'd be more sure of your statement reading current events...
Classic Star Trek had writers on staff and was overseen by one of the most forward-thinking creative minds of the 20-th century. With good writing you can have a set constructed of painted shower curtains and salt shakers. With bad writing even the best CGI in the world won't save you.
Leia: Aktivate ECM, and start the evacuation.
First order sensor officer: We lost track becuse of enemy jamming.
Hux: NO! Get a target lock on them NOW!
First order sensor officer: Do not worry sire, give the battle computer 5 min to analyze the jaming and we can counter it.
Leia: All transport ship, stop the engines and go dark, they will soon overcome our jaming.
First order sensor officer: Enemy jaming defeated, you have your target lock now on the last enemy ship sire.
But the cloaking scan cloaks the scan, so..........
I watched Iron Man for the first time in years and noticed a nice little set up/payoff in that. After returning home from captivity, Tony replaces the arc reactor in his chest with a superior model. He tells Pepper to incinerate the old one. She ignores this and later gives it to Tony as a present which informs a lot about her character. This later proves pivotal to the story when Obadiah steals Tony's arc reactor and leaves him to die, as Tony is able to retrieve it to save his own life. This scene is also combined with Dummy getting something right for the first time by passing Tony the reactor when he is too weak to get to it. This lower powered reactor also put Tony at a disadvantage in the final battle. I was impressed with how well this one object is woven so neatly throughout the whole story.
That’s why I love the first Iron Man as it was the beginning of the MCU and the start of the Infinity Saga.
@@JonathanGaeta *Sad Hulk noises intensifies*
That's a perfect example of setup/payoff! And it event lasts all the way to the end of the saga to drift away in the memorial to Tony.
@@JonathanGaeta .....good boy..... *smash*
@Sam Sparklebot Imagine how hopeful the fanbases would be if Favreau was in charge of Star Wars and/or Marvel.
The fact that they came up with the idea of Palpatine being Rey's grandfather in the last minute should speak volumes.
Palpatine had a kid? I just assumed he was a villain because he never got laid. 😆
@@GenerationX1984 no, he had clones and one of the clones had a kid.
Honestly, this would have been an EXCELLENT premise for Rey and if done right it could have properly explained every one of her Mary Sue moments, leading into a climax where she learns to accept that she's a Palpatine, but that her heritage doesn't have to make her Sidious 2.0.
The sequel trilogy was full of some great ideas that never got any setup OR payoff, which is the real tragedy of the thing (Finn as Force-sensitive ex stormtrooper turned Resistance commando or something would have been a character that could sit right with the Star Wars greats).
@@sethb3090 When I left the cinema after EP VII I was actually exited about all the open questions that were not answered and I was sure they´d answer them in Ep VIII and IX. Turns out they´d not even use the stuff they did set up and came up with stuff out of nowhere. The only hope is now with Bad Batch and the Mandalorian they do the setup of the events in the sequels, which they do seem to do with all the focus on cloning in both series
@@sethb3090 finn could and should have been a great character.
Only thing original in episode VII and they quickly destroyed his character in episode VIII.
@@turbo8628John Boyega got shafted so hard with the new Star Wars movies, they had a good thing going with episode VII and it got squandered
_"We plan ahead - that way we dont need to do anything right now..."_
I've been using that line for damn near 25yrs 😂
Good motto to live by 😂
We have the "paralysis by analysis thing" around here.
JJ Abrams: I'm gonna make a trilogy of movies for one...no, two of the most popular franchises, which should respect the legacy of predecessors, so I'm not gonna plan even the first movie through and rewrite my scripts every day while shooting! What can possibly go wrong?
Same. 😂
I've been using another of Val's line for years. The one after they killed the first graboid right after he said "cold my ass, he's dead"
Back to the Future is the perfect example of this; everything in the film is setup and paid off at some stage. It's a near perfect screenplay.
one of few perfect trilogies
indeed, should be required study for these "writers" in hollyweird
The first movie has NO waste and is constantly prepping the next scenes. And time travel is the hardest thing to try and cover your bases with. Even the sequels are pretty good about it, especially the second movie setting things up for the third. Like the documentary about Biff's family with Mad Dog Tannen, or Biff watching the movie with Clint Eastwood and the "bullet proof vest"
Even down to the mall changing names from “Twin Pine” to “Lone Pine” after Marty knocks down one of Old Man Peabody’s trees 😂
@@Loneboner Or the poster that Marty gets to renovate the clock tower. Seems like a gag but is actually VERY important to the story. Or the time Doc remarks about Marty's brother's hair being cut short in a photo, it's brilliant.
Rey in TFA: My parents were nobodies
Rey in ROS: My grandpa was emperor palpatine
Lmao what is that
Bad Death Sticks trip. Obi-Wan should have warned Luke about the dangers of Death Sticks smh. I reckon he learned his lesson after hallucinating the entire sequel trilogy tho.
Idk if the writers know this but in Vadar the comic SPOILER The Emperor turns out to be Anakin's father, thats a good story however.
@Raphael Castel Morano If I'm not mistaken, Daisy Ridley herself said that they wanted Obi-wan Kenobi to be her grandfather in TFA, then nobody in TLJ and only in the last movie did they decide it would be Palpatine. I mean, WTF? It was an entire trilogy that cost millions of dollars and they still hadn't even written the basic plot structure!
The Last Jedi actively ignored the setup from The Force Awakens. Why was Max Von Sydow on a backwater planet with a piece of the map to Luke Skywalker? Why did he just happen to be that close to Rey? Why did R2 only activate when the lost piece of the map and Rey were both in the same room as him?
Why the hell would Luke leave behind a map to where he was going if he didn't want to be found!?
#1 It could be a sign the trilogy was completely unplanned
#2 It could be seen as one of the not so subtle FU to Rian Johnson in the script.
Something that i live by when building a story: the best Chekhov's Guns are ones people think have already gone off. You THINK the squealing cooler is just there to show the relationship between Walter and the duo of Val and Earl. So you write it off as a story element that has fulfilled its purpose. Fast forward and the group has forgotten about the cooler, you've forgotten about the cooler, and when it starts screaming as they're hunkered down to avoid the graboid's notice, their 'oh shit' moment is also your 'oh shit ' moment.
This is such a good point! It has to act as a story obstacle in itself, so that it looks like the gun has gone off already.
"Measure seven times, cut once" (russian saying).
Endless expensive and time-consuming reshoots (which end up not being of any use) would benefit from an adaptation: "Review your script seven times, shoot once".
They will only do that when they are so deep in red ink they have no other choice.
Seven? Sounds like some commie math. Americans only have to measure twice.
JJ Abrams: I'm gonna make a trilogy of movies for one...no, two of the most popular franchises, which should respect the legacy of predecessors, so I'm not gonna plan even the first movie through and rewrite my scripts every day while shooting! What can possibly go wrong?
They cant say no to the diversity hires or they will sue.
@@mesasavage Pre-commie. In russian history, those who made mistakes seldom got a second chance.
To live.
Made for a very paranoid, grim mindset. Commies just went with the grain.
Modern Hollywood script writing is more like: "Dammit! I've cut this board three times already, and it's still TOO SHORT!"
Old movies: we need a really good script and some great actors make a great movie.
Current movies: we have some analysis of audience preferences that says we can make at least $900M worldwide if we make a movie about zombie urban teens and include a female lead who fits these particular demographic categories, plot that involves 3 international locations, story that is accessible and generic for consumption of international tastes, and work in some considerable explosions in case there’s any gaps in the dialog. at least 7 quotable lines for the trailer even if they don’t make sense.
Except that nobody quotes movies anymore since they are so boring and actors are so lifeless nowadays.
@@ryanjacobson2508 Jeez, you guys are cynical. A lot of people still quote films nowadays. Have you seen any Edgar Wright movies, The Lighthouse, 1917, any MCU movie. You cant clump ALL movies that come out into the bad movie pile, cause that's just unfair
You can’t judge old and modern movies as a whole, there are hundreds of shitty old movies and also hundreds of great new movies
@@kadiriolanipekun6486 I feel the exact same way, my friend.
I thought the explosions were for the audience with short attention span.
I remember watching Tremors back in the 90's, going into it I thought that it might be a bit B grade, but it quickly revealed itself to be the diamond that it is.
Never seen it but it looks great! :-) "Jaws where you can't get out of the water" is a great description.
Every time it aired on tv my siblings and I would be tiptoeing around the house the rest of the day.
For a while, I thought it might be just me, kind of a guilty pleasure, but a little more analysis explained how it's a really, really good movie.
One especially nice touch, and kind of a sign of how much care went into the script, was after their first encounter with the Graboids, and the geologist girl gets tangled up in the wooden post w/ barbed wire. She has to escape by taking her pants off. Then later, when they've made it back to the store, her FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS is to find some jeans and put them on. I thought, "That may be the most realistic thing I've ever seen in a monster move including blue skies and parallel parking!"
It is indeed a diamond.
The scene where Reba and her husband blow like 600 rounds into a worm that broke into their basement while is just sits there and wiggles a little bit for like 5 minutes is pure garbage, and I thought so the first time I saw it in the theaters. Do these things have a survival instinct or not? Other than that, I thought it was pretty good, certainly entertaining. Good characters, well acted. Creature effects didn't age well, but they were pretty effective at the time.
It's a B grade premise with S grade writing.
I always loved about Tremors was the 3 leads working together to get across the boulders. They actually planned and tested stuff. Then, when they made their move, you cheered because you saw them figure it out. It wasn't the scientist girl just saying "This is the entire back story of these creatures and I'm the only one who can save us!"
"There's no real incentive for them to be better." That sums up movies for the last 20 years.
That's what happens when a company ownes practicley everything. Why should they try hard when they have little to no competition?
Exactly. Sad part is, so many sheep just keep going to the theatre and paying to watch these dumpster fires. It would change overnight if people just said no and didn't pay. But they do. So here we are.
@@ejcheli If people would stop watching everry movie that comes out it could change. But it's like people never llearn and keep watching annything that will be regretted afterwards. But people seam so hungrey for entertainment thru movies they will keep watching garbage. I have a huge veriety of dvd movies not found on online tv programs and I enjoy these more then manny moderne tv programs.
And that's people's fault. They still pay even if it's crap. It happens with all kind of products. This is why the concept of "working hard in order to success" is just BS.
Still, i would assume the cheapest part of making a movie is hiring a good writer?!? (Maybe i am wrong on that). These fucked up star wars movies cost hundreds on millions. How much of that budget was spent on writers???
Good points. I think the fear of failure is part of why many films succeed, especially in a filmmaker's early career. Take a look at Jaws, arguably one of Spielberg's best films and it's nearly 50 years old. He had NO budget, not one hit under his belt so he had no power, AND the shark wasn't working. He had to use ingenuity to make an entertaining film with heart and good characters. Old-school film making.
Good old-fashioned adversity. Making both movies and people smarter since the beginning of movies and people.
Another good example of this was Rocky. It had almost zero budget but the limitations of it bred creativity. I remember the scene in the skating rink. That scene was supposed to be filmed set during operational hours so that meant hiring lots of extras and needed a lot of lighting. They couldn't afford that so they switched it up and made Rocky go there after hours. But it turned to the movie's advantage as the scene felt more personal with just Rocky and Adrian, and marked the beginning of their relationship.
Clerks has entered the chat.
It helped Spielberg had Robert Shaw and Richar Dreyfuss as main characters.
This reminds me of the 3 most common defences of each of the films in the Sequel Trilogy:
7: It will make sense when we have seen 8.
8: It will make sense when we have seen 9.
9: It only did not make sense because of 8.
7) Right.. kind of a reboot but 8 will go in a cool new direction!
8) New direction is so fucking bad... the same old was better...
9) Nothing works at all.
“Somehow Palpatine returned.” -The modern state of Hollywood Reboots and what happens when you don’t have a setup and the payoff is not even worth it.
And he was defeated because two light sabers make you stronger. The payoff was just as bad.
@James Scott So...if the Force is female, it brought him back to life and gave him offspring...that means Palpy fucked the Force?
Yup. In "A New Hope" we are told what a good pilot Luke Skywalker is FOUR times during the movie. So at the end, we don't need to ask why he's in the cockpit of an X-Wing. Setup. Payoff.
In "The Force Awakens" Rey flies the Millennium Falcon, a ship she has never flown before, with precision and balls. In fact, we have no reason to think she has ANY experience flying ships at all. (Also in "Rise of Skywalker" she scores a triple kill in one shot, from a gunnery chair she's never sat in before). These abilities are never set up. They're just things she can do now, because JJ thought it "looked cool." That's his only criteria for writing scenes.
Cloning technology was advanced during the Clone Wars years.
Palpatine should never have returned!
I can't believe I didn't notice it until now, but by the end of the film, Val and Earl have swapped mindsets.
Earl wants Val to use their last bomb to distract the last Graboid so they can get to the rocks, but Val points out that they'd die of dehydration within three days. So instead he plans ahead and uses the bomb to lure the Graboid off the cliff using the stampede tactic that were both established at the very beginning of the movie.
There has always been soft place in my heart for Tremors.
And that, my friend, is why that movie is an underrated GEM.
Same. I'm also kind of in the minority that I like the second one more but both are incredible.
@@ignatiusj.reilly1197 Tremors is on my top 10 favorite movies ever. It's a fun masterpiece.
I like this kind of thing. I guess I really starting consciously thinking about it somewhat recently after watching Cop Craft. It does the concept quite a bit more blatantly, by making the two main characters have to use each other's weapons at the end, but it was neat to see. I wonder what you would call this trope?
This is why I loved the movie Rocky so much, the film sets up this simple yet loveable man who knows all he wants in life is not to be “just another bum” by going the distance. And when you hear that final bell ring, you are cheering for him!!!!
...and managed to get me emotional every time I watch it!! Masterpiece!!
Same with karate kid too
Exactly Chuck it gave the viewer a realistic goal that the character could achieve. Even at the beginning of Part 2 where Mickey says I don't care what anyone says this guy right here won the fight. It leaves it up to a judgement call, building into the next film. Where Apollo says "I won, but I didn't beat him" great dialog. Smartly written and extremely believable from his point of view. Rocky has so many great scenes that build into one another setup and payoff done correctly. Where Rocky forgives Mickey after he is walking away after his "I ain't got no locker" scene was so moving and you can tell it hurt Rocky and he needed to let it out before he could forgive Mickey and let him train him. Modern filmmaking has almost none of that kind of depth. Like the Drinker said all flash and action no substance.
it's more of a character study without a true villain, per se, rather a 'man v. self' tale.
@kevin barker just like Rocky said "I ain't mind being simp for Adrian" lol
A good example of set-up and pay-off is 12 Angry Men. When Juror #3 is talking about his son, we think that it’s just a piece of exposition for Juror #3. But then at the climax, we learn that his fractured relationship with his son was what was ultimately driving his actions throughout the film.
It's basically simple. Tell a good story, make it organically interesting, and at all times use subtlety and don't pander to the lowest common denominator.
Sadly, appealing to the lowest common denominator is how studios make money. Selling 100 million people something to kill a few hours of their time will always be more profitable than touching the hearts of 10 million.
As Chekhov, one of the best play writers, put it: “If there is a rifle in the room, at some point it must fire” :)
A. Thanks for letting me know who said it! I'll be able to credit him whenever I use it now ^-^
B. I use a slightly different version that goes "if you show a gun in act 1, it must've fired by act 3" (in Spanish).
On the other hand I am also completely tired of very lazy implementations of "Chekhov's gun", where the setup is so obvious, that you can see it from miles away and pretty much predict a big outcome of the whole movie because of it. A setup needs to be clever and used in multiple ways to work properly.
@@Brainfracture have you seen ‘Kin dza dza’? th-cam.com/video/EYHv8eJrW2Y/w-d-xo.html It’s most intricate implementation of Chekhov’s gun through out the movie. It’s a clever Sci-Fi comedy, but there is no action though.
@@Hella333 No I have not :) Will see if I can find a translated version :D
@@Brainfracture you can turn English subtitles on following that link! I doubt there is a translated version, but anyway, there is not much talk in this movie and the plot is quite strange and weird, subtitles should be enough:)
I'm a musician and everything you said about the movie industry of today applies to the music industry as well. All the mainstream "artists" are nothing but a sludge pool with no creativity. The actual good music is hiding in lower budget tier where artists are still trying to create good stuff for the audience. I guess that's why I can appreciate good B movies over any overbudgeted AAA title out there. Same applies for video game industry as well.
Yep. Personally these days I play about 90% Indie games, only barely touching AAA games every now and then when something really special comes out, like Breath of the Wild.
Music, like movies, has become disposable. Put out some generic autotuned single, get a few million downloads and plays on Spotify, and then move on to the next generic autotuned single. It works for the record labels, but there is nothing that would be remembered in a year by anyone with even a slight appreciation for good music making.
The snes games is better than those news games.
💯
@@fishingthelist4017Hey, remember those songs "Tiimmy Turner" and "Panda" by Desiinger, if you even remember who that rapper is?
It's hard to get invested emotionally in a story when you know they can throw in something with no setup at any time. It reminds me of stories where characters keep dying and coming back to life, which makes it hard to take conflicts seriously.
Deus ex machina
Dothraki
Like kidding on you've killed off Chewbacca, when you literally had him in the trailer in the fucking Falcon with Lando?
Elite squads of armored soldiers with the ability to wirelessly relay information and protected by metal dinosaurs being defeated by teddy bears with sticks wasn't really better.
Wrath of Man did this recently. At the beginning of the movie, Statham has to pretend he's bad at shooting so he misses a bunch of shots at the shooting range. At the end of the movie, you find out that he wasn't missing at all but was actually aiming for the liver, lungs, spleen and heart. Payoff perfection and hidden in plain sight
I am not sure I would being that movie up as an example, unless to show how a great director needs that steady paycheck even if the end result is horrible.
Shooting and missing but not really missing has been done to death tho.
@@nanach6276 Tropes are simply tools, they are not bad or good by themselves, it is how you use them
@@Ariescz
exactly. tried and true, or original. if used well, it will work.
I remember watching tremor on cable and always instantly getting hooked up to watch. I knew it looked cheesy but couldn't no explain it then. When it was put back on Netflix recently, I saw it with different eyes after watching many of your videos and got to the same conclusion. Setup and payoff were everything. You have succesfully educated me. Thank you Mr drinker.
I remember watching that film on cable too. Halcyon days.
I never watched it on cable (I'm part of some of the shittiest generations of humanity) but I loved it we own the entire series on disc and it is amazing
'I GOT A GODDAMN PLAN!"
One example of setup and payoff I really liked was in Encanto. Near the beginning of the film, when Mirabel is just about to start singing "Family Madrigal", we can see a crack in the wall showcasing the Madrigal family tree. Later, when she's talking to Bruno Madrigal, she realizes that the crack is there so that Bruno can still sit with his family at the dinner table, despite being ostracized by them. It's all subtle (I didn't even notice until my 8th time watching), and it's brilliant.
Yeah, Encanto really had great foreshadowing and payoff.
This is why Back To The Future is considered to have a perfect script. It develops multiple iterations of more than half a dozen characters - Marty, the McFly family, Biff, Doc Brown, etc. It also throws a curve ball at the protagonist by making his mom fall in love with him. Everything is set up to come back full circle at the end.
Another that comes to mind is Watchmen, great script with an excellent payoff.
Watchmen was a brilliant 1:1 adaption of a brilliant comic
I think watchmen was actually one of the few times I preferred the movie to the source material
For a perfect script look no further than Galaxy Quest.
@@danielberra6747 thats thin ice. But I agree.
@@danielberra6747 second
The thing I could not get over was Leia is impervious to explosions, blaster fire and the vacuum of space but Luke dies for thinking to hard.
Well, actually what the audience doesn’t know is, that is the toilet Luke is sitting on, not just some rock. Luke actually had an aneurysm while sitting on the toilet. The scenes of him in deep concentration were actually him pushing against the constipation of alien sea cow boob milk.
@@ThirdEngr That would make for a better story.
Too*
Girl Power!
Don't forget the force is female now. It had enough of Luke's toxic masculine patriarchal oppression.
1 major problem is everyone's trying to build a universe and make a movie open for sequels when they just need to do 1 movie right and have it flow organically that makes people like it enough to warrant a sequel.
A buddy works in Hollywood and explained why we get the movies we do. 1) Money - Sequels are far less expensive, 2) Globalism / politics - Think China, India, South America, political correctness, ethnic inclusion and 3) Writers (extremely uniform in geography, politics and social issues plus their ideas come from the web or tv vs real life).
He said some writers for business dramas have never been to a board meeting, spent only a few minutes with employees, were never involved in a startup or ground floor and were ignorant of finance. He laughed and said it's why CEOs in movies assassinate rivals vs taking over their firms as in the real world.
South America?????????
@@Shrek_es_mi_pastor Hispanics in films is a win-win situation, attracts audiences here and SA. Before my buddy left he talked to a director who said Hollywood may never recover. Older experienced writers are rapidly being replaced with new diverse ones who follow a "script" - inclusion of LGBT characters, every romance must be racially mixed, issues are political. He said they had a slogan - "Go woke and go broke!" LOL
@@smb123211 Eh, I wouldn't say that's political. When you said China or India I imagined things like censorship and whatnot so that's why it was striking to see South America
In The Force Awakens, when faced with the possibility of a gas attack, Finn says the stormtrooper helmet only protects against smoke, not gas. I thought "well why the fuck not?!!" They had gas masks back in WW1. Why not incorporate such a useful feature? Because the writers were shit.
What's funny is that the original stormtrooper armor protected them from even the vacuum of space! Who the hell decided it would be a good idea to downgrade FO Troopers' armor like that, and why did that even become a plotpoint in the movie???
They should just wear a neck gator.
JJ Boredoms strikes again!
Don’t forgot about them forgetting jet packs existed as it was implied in the sequel trilogy that they were never used/invented before the FO.
@@igniskitsune887
Then what the hell was Bobba using in the Mandalorian? The whole "I gotta get me one of those" meme
I still love how in space there's no friction, but running out of fuel (which has never been an issue in Star Wars canon) causes you to come to a dead stop.
Oh... and how in zero gravity you can actually bomb objects.
The whole "theyre lighter and faster" has no meaning in space. But i once heard somewhere that in the part of the Galaxy Star wars is set in supposedly its not empty space, its filled with something. I dunno.
Forget Star Wars, watch The Expanse if you want real SF with the physics done right.
… and have rounds affected by bullet drop and friction … IN SPACE 🙄🤦🏽
I mean it's a different universe so it might be possible there where you can shoot lightning out of your hands and have like 100000 porn categories
Freefall bombs can work in space if you give em a push (momentum does the rest) but those bombers were inferior in every way to Clone Wars surplus Y-Wings, let alone the B-wings of episode VI, or the K-wings that were canon before disney retconned everything except the movies. Pretty obvious the director wanted to do a WWII film but got star wars instead. Was i the only one that noticed the oversized turbolaser bolts (which according to my lucas era tech manuals are basically multistage plasma cannons) were travelling in ballistic arcs?
I still cannot comprehend why people would even still try defending Last Jedi despite the fact it's literally one of the worst movies ever written, especially by a person who does not really respect Star Wars at all, he himself even admitted it in a Knifes Out interview that he wanted to write his own story and admitting to disregarding continuity in the process.
It fails to apply even basic understanding of Physics and Logic, no Rian Johnson, ships don't suddenly stop moving forwards once they run out of fuel in a vacuum where there is no air resistance and gravity is negligable, so in a logic applied scene, the ship would maintain it's velocity regardless and it's shouldn't drift back when it came from once it runs out of fuel. Also turbolaser bolts don't curve in vacuum
How did the First Order somehow take over the Galaxy that quickly with relatively no opposition? Thanks to RJ for negating the use of Starkiller Base, they could've just used their ships to take over the New Republic, (I still don't get why suddenly the New Republic left itself to be so weak, suddenly corrupt and suddenly dies out after Hosnian Prime is destroyed without any introduction in TLJ, I didn't care about the planet that was destroyed by Starkiller Base)
During the Last Jedi opening, Why use Large, slow, moving Bombers that could easily be taken out by a Tie fighter; a Tie fighter crashing into one was enough to destroy Three, this is just hilarious. Why couldn't they use smaller, faster, more manueverable and way harder to hit fighter squadrons with split up payload which could destroy the Dreadnought quickly rather than having to sacrifice a squadron of heavy slow bombers and the A-wings accompanying them?
And why were the Resurgent Star Destroyers just sitting behind the Dreadnought doing absolutely nothing while the Dreadnought was attacked, they could just form a perimeter around the Dreadnought, no fighter and heavy bomber would be able to pass through this or at least be very hard now. And the First Order could easily strike down the Capital ship Raddus or destroy the transports during the evacuration effort when they are at their most vulnerable.
Also they had to violate an established rule in Star Wars, the fact that Holdo can just casually ram the Supremacy with no second thoughts just means that Hyperspace can be easily weaponised which ruins every Star Wars battle, there would no reason to Why the Separatists would have to hijack a Venator and fill it with fuel when they could just ram the Venator in lightspeed into a Battlestation instantly killing everyone in that one Clone Wars episode, you just a ram a Venator into Admiral Trench's flagship without having to overfire your reactors to break the blockade, overall, sides and groups participating in a galactic-wide conflict would just create weaponry which sends projectiles and missiles through Hyperspace threatening entire Worlds.
Also, the Canto Bight plot was awful, it added nothing to Movie, it was only there to increase the run time just by 40 minutes and it was only included to lecture people about Slavery. I forgot about the entire plot, I cannot tell you anything else.
They also ruined important Characters and Rey is just perfect example of a Mary Sue. Hux who was a serious, competent First Order officer in the Force Awakens is now an incompetent moron in the Last Jedi giving cliche generic villain dialogue about destroying the Resistance, humilated by both Snoke and Poe, cries a lot and just cast aside by Kylo Ren as nothing important.
They ruined Finn, he is just now played for cheap laughs and following a strong woman like some puppy, how would Rose easily taze him despite literally being a child soldier who was trained from Birth to Adulthood to be a deadly Soldier for Empire 2.0 instead is easily taken down (wait was he retconned in TFA to be a janitor?). Finn is literally not allowed to have his moment, (who would've had his head melted off anyways from that beam), he has to be saved by Rose because we need to save what we love, despite the fact Rose literally prevented Finn from saving the Resistance now allowing the First Order to get inside.
Poe didn't receive much justice, he no interesting qualities that makes makes himself stand out, he has no struggles, no conflict that he has to overcome.
This had been said countless times but I have to repeat: Rey is literally a Mary Sue character, she is literally perfect which is bad, since she does not forgo any struggles whatsoever which means she is unrelatable and simply unlikeable. She is simply the best at everything, she can pilot the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, knows the Millenium Falcon better than Han Solo, somehow be able to take down Kylo Ren in the first movie without any experience with a lightsaber without much difficulty, removing any credibility of Kylo being a threat to her, able to take down 8 highly-trained guards with Kylo in a poorly choreographed fight scene, and also able to life dozens of tons of rock with one hand with minimal effort. The list literally goes on, she does not experience any defeat or loss which impacts her severely or causes her to change because she is a perfect character. She has no character flaws, she isn't impulsive, nor reckless, nor naive or ignorant nor arrogant.
Snoke just dies in an unsatisfying way, worst way possible, we know nothing about his backstory despite being portrayed as an important overarching main anatagonist in the Sequel trilogy, if we have known what his motivations and backstory was about in the Movie, and if Snoke dies in an actual conflict between Rey and Kylo, his death would've been much better but we had none of that.
Also Kylo is just a ripoff of Darth Vader, he has no origin to justify who is he and why he is, he is just evil because he wants to be, he did not suffer any tragedy down the road which causes him to be evil, he did not become evil because he believed what he did would benefit the people of the Galaxy or usurp power to establish an order which he believed to benefit everyone's good. He has none of the complex motivations, ultimately making him a flat villain. Also he did not defeat Rey at least once to make him a strong villain. and no longer intimidating, he just throws temper tantrums around.
Final point, Luke Skywalker's arc was undone for no reason, he was a wise, compassionate, calm, forgiving Jedi Knight/Master, now he is just a pessimistic asshole who just rants about why the Jedi was the cause for everything bad that occurred, he attempted to murder his nephew in his sleep instead of attempting to prevent him from falling to the dark side and it's silly since he has learned to not allow impulses control his mind ever since his duel with Vader at Bespin and managed to defeat the temptations of the Emperor by refusing to finish off Vader and staying true to his good-nature, believing that his evil father can still be redeemed. He loses to Rey who is a strong woman despite the fact that Rey has absolutely no experience with the force and Luke being an adept Jedi Master.
He also does not try to redeem his Nephew, he just says sorry and fuck you, he just humiliates his Nephew in front of his officers when he should try to turn his back into the light.
Yet despite of all this, TLJ defenders are quick to worship Ruin Johnson as some God-like figure, quick to dismiss criticism as being racist, sexist, part of the alt-right, "yOu jUsT d0N't l1KE sT0ng wOmEn", or "n0 oNE hAtesS sTAr WaRs m0re tHen sTar WArS fANs", or attempting to insert their own superiority complex over others or attempt to make the Prequels or even the Originals just as bad to somehow make their Trilogy or TLJ better.
I can rant about more things but this would be a 50,000 word essay so I won't do it.
Spot on friend 😎🤩😇✌️👏 TLJ alongside Get Out were the two worst (+ ridiculously overrated and overpraised! 🤮👎) movies of 2017! 🤔☹️👎 Get Out a supposed horror comedy that is neither scary nor funny! 😕🙄 Basically it was just Critical Race Theory: The Movie as well as a love letter of sorts to Louis Farrakhan and Al Sharpton - and ironically it's more or less preaching against interracial/interethnic relationships and marriage...yet Jordan Peele himself is mixed-race and married to a white woman with whom he has a child by! And like you say about general and fair criticism about TLJ being grossly distorted as sexism, racism etc I find the same thing about Get Out - it's pretty much totally absent! 🤔🙄☹️
I'll be honest, I read like 1 paragraph, but I can say with certainty I agree with everything you said.
Your paragraph about Luke in particular is almost word for word what I’ve been preaching to anyone who will listen for the last 4.5 years. Luke was railroaded and shit on in TLJ and that is completely and utterly unforgivable.
Go outside lol
@@АнтонБобров-у3ц You some TLJ defender who is butthurt because what I said or are just some troll just commenting something totally unrelated?
First minute of the movie.
"Stampede Earl stampede."
"I was in a stampede once."
"How many cows does it take to make a stampede Earl? Is it three or more?"
Last minute.
"It just suddenly hit me you know, stampede."
Hey, I found the ass end
That movie is seriously better than it has any right to be.
@@Yautja834 because that movie was written 32 years ago by people who were hired for their talent not because they checked off boxes on an eeoc form or had the "correct" politics.
@Dusty Barker AND at the same cliffside location as the first scene. Fuck me, that's good shit.
@@MrSGL21 They might have even had the "wrong" politics given the characterization of Burt. *};-P*
"If you don't do any set up at all, then you end up with payoffs that feel cheap, contrived, and manufactured. But we'll talk more about that later, believe me." Nice 😎
They cant do anything right.
Nice. 😎
What was the point of you bringing up this quote? It feels contrived as fuck.
@@NeOmega83 Dude???
@@loturzelrestaurant he is saying OP wanted likes. He could be correct.
Films have always reflected the mood and atmosphere of the time, I think. Film makers know what sells films. And I propose to you that today more than ever this rings true: dodgy, corrupt politicians; seemingly mindlessly rich and greedy multi-billionaires; over-exposure and normalisation of celebrities and sports stars; together with social media making us all quasi-famous, in an era where the news and the future seems confusing, dystopian and problematic, we're all looking for superheroes, even at the expense of things making too much sense.
“Every word in the script should either reveal character or push the story forward, ideally both.“
Okay, and?
@@Dragonage2ftw
Yeah, I probably should have included some more context. Just wanted to share some wise words I’ve learned.
Enjoyed Drinker’s video and wanted to contribute.
It is really mind-boggling to me how modern movies have perfect acting, perfect music, perfect visuals, perfect sound effects but the first, cheapest, most simple and cheapest thing, the story, is complete and utter garbage to the degree of being insulting. If I was an actor I would be pissed off at the screenwriters for giving me these garbage roles.
Uh, perfect acting? I don't know about that. The Phantom Menace, for instance, (really all the prequels) proved that you can have great actors but if they're working from a shit script, their performance is going to be pretty shitty too. And obviously most actors have no taste or standards anymore either, no one (but their bills, I guess) is forcing them to take terrible roles in terrible movies with terrible scripts. They're insulting themselves. Also the story is not the "most simple" thing. Have you ever written a screenplay or a short story even? There's nothing simple about it.
@@mg725 the scripts you see in many Hollywood blockbusters are simple to the extent of trivial. Anyone can write that nonsense. That is not to say that there aren't great, even genius scripts
@@mg725 i believe what he means is that the writing is the cheapest possible part, and also the first part. So it's baffling that they will start off with a bad story and waste hundreds of millions of dollars on all of the other parts for it.
@@mg725 I think he means it's the most simplest physically speaking - it costs next to nothing to put pen to paper and to just write. A good script vs a bad script cost the same to physically produce. Good CGI vs bad CGI have very different costs.
Also, the prequels are a master class in scripture and acting compared to what we get now.
@@dani_i8942 Most simplest..?
"They can't have disappeared. No ship that small has a cloaking device!" -Imperial tool, The Empire Strikes Back.
That took place decades before the Last Jedi, so that could easily be explained with technology innovation.
@@TheFire1290 Except they didn't explain that with innovation, it was just one of a thousand other little things that magically contradicted established lore with no setup or explanation.
@@TheFire1290 in star wars lore it is known that the fatigue of continual war palpatine has had the galaxy under has stalled tech innovation for the immediate. That ik has been mentioned in novels but yea first order is a different beast i get it. They still gotta address more stuff like what alan was sayin
Not everything needs to be explained. Technology innovation in a series involving space travel is something we should able to infer.
@@TheFire1290 I agree that in a good, well written movie, not everything needs to be explained, and you can rely on the audience to infer certain things. The problem is, the sequels are not well written (especially 8 and 9), and there are numerous little problems like that (heck, numerous giant problems like that). At a certain point, it just becomes bad writing, and you lose a big chunk of the audience who really like their stories to make sense and be internally consistent.
If the sequels were otherwise overall good movies, most people would be happy to overlook something minor like this.
Tremors has a few good set-ups in it. it's a really well put together film. The ending scene is set up right at the start of the film and you see the moment Val remembers that earlier scene and uses it to overcome the last monster.
Culture is literally changing and Media reflects that but Media is also the
Cause, cause it's all symbiotic.
For example, Quotes from the
12.Doctor: "Oh, the Mechanized Space-Suits malfunction and attack us? That's funny cause that means we're like Anyone-else Everywhere-else: We're fighting the Suit!"
12.Doctor:"What makes you feel so superior? It it the good House?
But Human-Progress isnt measured by Industry, it's measured by looking at a Life.
An unimportant Life... a life without privilege.
13.Doctor: "OMG, OMG, OMG, have you heard of Space-Amazon?
Amazon is so epic, everyone who disagrees with that is a literal PIG. We should all
stop criticizing Amazon forever."
I kid you not, they said that. Holy Penguin, wtf.
What's more, his fawning over blonde babes is what sets up his character arc where he appreciates the leading lady for her daring and intelligent personality instead of looks alone
Remember in star wars, a new hope, at the very beginning an Imperial officer states that they have detected an escape pod launch from the rebel ship, but as there are no life forms on it, they don't bother pursuing it, the ship carrying R2 and c3po... a simple set up you might say
The good ol days of Star Wars
Though you could easily argue that the empire could have assumed that that one peculiar escape pod was strange and that maybe the rebels put something of value on it. I’ve forgotten what made them go down and investigate the pod later. If someone told Vader right away and he said to investigate it then my point is moot, but if they only just learn about it through Leia and then decide to investigate, then it’s not as believable but not super in believable unlike some things
@@jerelo175 Yes an officer informed Vader of the escape pod and Vader told them to find it
@@MisterLyn right, I did remember that scene just not the full details of it
An officer didn't tell Vader: "The rebel ship is smaller and faster. We shall have to wait for it to run out of fuel."
“No ship that small has a cloaking device …but a much smaller ship does if it’s 30 years later and the plot needs it to.”
Tbh it could work if it was set up correctly. The Republic was testing a cloaking ship of corvette size during the Clone Wars (TV show, seasons 2) so the idea of a smaller cloaking ship isn't a new one. Had this been set up properly, it would show some decent world building as it pertains to the growth of technology and pay tribute to the Clone Wars.
Funnily enough you reminded me of playing Earthworm Jim on the MegaDrive when I was a kid. The very first obstacle you come across is a refrigerator suspended over a log that has a cow standing on the other end. You hit the fridge, causing it to fall on the end of the log, which launches the cow. Later in the game you see the same cow randomly flying by in the background. Then at the end of the game after you beat the final boss the Princess you've just saved goes to kiss Jim and gets squashed by a falling cow. You get all the way to the end of the game only to have the girl you're out to rescue crushed by your solution to the game's very first problem...
Thanks for reminding me of this :)
Regarding Star Wars, this was all foreshadowed by Rey just magically having strong force powers appear when needed with zero training. Luke wasn't a full Jedi until the 3rd movie in. How can we get emotionally invested in a universe where the supposed saviors are just magically given the powers without any real work?
Star Wars is and always has been shit for the brain dead.
@@notmyname4261 You must be a Star Trek fan.
@@BReal-10EC How'd you guess lol
@@notmyname4261 I like both. I guess that makes me Bi-Sci-Fi.
*Mulan (2020) has entered the chat*
"We're the ones that let them get away with it." This explains every bad thing that becomes mainstream.
That's why we should boycott movies and just torrent them down later...
Also describes why the world is in the mess it is right now.
@@MichaelNNY so basically, democracy is equal to "stupid mob rule", that's why the world is a mess.
every mainstream thing is bullshit, you have to go find a really niche.
the internet was supposed to solve that long tail problem of logistics, not make it worse.
all was well until 1998, Google was founded, and it became too big and mainstream, the old internet died that day, the day it became mainstream.
@@KondorDCS Not even torrenting garbage. Why would you?
@@KondorDCS I can't boycott movies, because that would require me wanting to watch that garbage in the first place
There's a reason why movies have become more about style and less about substance. It has to do with getting an agent. You see, the only way to get a job in the film industry is to get an agent first. You can't send anything directly to them; they send it back saying "No unsolicited materials." The primary way people get in is through film festivals. Throughout the '90s and '00s, I went to a lot of them. Everything I saw that got accepted was sleek, good looking, with no substance. I knew of other films that didn't get accepted that were more like movies from the '70s; lots of substance but didn't look as sleek. Those who were accepted in the festivals got agents. Those who weren't, did not. As such, Hollywood became filled with filmmakers who were all about style and no substance. Additionally, there were the people who slid around the festivals who got in because they were good at schmoozing. They got writing jobs and the like; and they got them by being good at kissing up to the right people. Thus, you are now left with ass kissers and style over substance filmmakers.
thanks now that makes a lot of sense to me
This is a fascinating insight, thank you for this.
'Looking sleek' is not and never has been any part of my definition of good style
I wonder if Disney's current rejections of top-notch film scripts because the authors are of, um, the wrong color, have anything to do with lousy writing.
You can see it in other aspects of society as well. The ability to sell has become more important than what is being sold. In recent years I've been looking for job opportunities to learn newer, more relevant tech and skills, and one thing I noticed strongly in almost all job interviews is that my technical knowledge, analytical talent, logical reasoning, and ability to learn, seems hardly relevant during the interview. I just need to give an impression that I know what I'm talking about. And that it has to "look and sound" authentic. Whether or not I actually have these talents and knowledge doesn't matter. It just needs to sound right. It seems that the more my story in an interview sounds like a confident sales pitch, the more likely i am to get hired, even though a talent for sales is one of the least important in my profession.
Tremors is such a classic that has tons of set ups and pay offs mixed in with humor. And the basement scene is a great example of great set up and a surprise twist.
Spoilers:
The whole movie before that point, the grabboids were scene as invincible. The only one that had die before that point ran full speed into cement. They have tried using guns before to no avail. The movie also set up that the couple were the usual Texas gun nuts/end times preppers. Before that scene, you have scene the grabboids not only kill people, but have taken down a car as well (and just one of their tongues help back a pickup truck for a few minutes). It seemed that only full run into cement can kill them (you also know that even the roofs aren't safe as the grabboids shall stay by you until you die of thirst). So, with everyone else on the roofs, Burt and his wife are in their basement (about a mile or two away from the town) mixing ammo (which causes a lot of noise) and, using binoculars and a radio, wondering why everyone else is on the roof. The town folks tried to warn them but it was too late and you see it burst through the wall, the camera cuts to the two main heroes, you here Burt swear, and the radio is cut off. For just a couple of seconds, it makes you feel like the couple who would best be able to defeat them just were killed. But then...well...just watch this clip yourself :) th-cam.com/video/KNoyStVjWFE/w-d-xo.html
Reminds me of when MST3K riffed the Russian fairy tale film, Jack Frost. Early on, the male main character threw a bunch of bandits' clubs into the air so high that the clubs disappeared. In a later fight scene with the same bandits, the clubs finally fell from the sky onto the bandits' heads, and Mike Nelson said, in a perfectly smug voice, "Oh yeah, it's raining cinematic payoff."
In literature its called Chekhov's gun, basically if something or someone is introduced in the writing, it should play some kind of role in the future and vice versa, no objects should exist just for mere existence in the writing.
Die Hard is also an iconic example of excellent writing, setup and payoff throughout the entire film.
Best Christmas movie ever
The first five minutes of DIE HARD are better than anything in the SW ST, and there's not even any action.
"Schiess auf die Fenster."
@@TheBoxGhost_tm SHOOT THE GLASS!!!!
The shoe thing would've been ridiculous if done today. It didn't feel like a set-up at the time. Same for the married name thing.
This is probably hand in hand with the ADHD that movies have now, like they're trying to pay off 80 different plotlines rather than, like, a couple. One overarching plot allows nuance, audience trickery, character development, and foreshadowing. Cramming action sequences back to back doesn't give much pay off.
as if ADHD people would not spot plotholes even easier, be more easily annoyed by 2-second cuts that don't contain any dramaturgy and have the movie immediately ruined by all that crap.
@@udirt spot plotholes easier?
as a person with adhd, I can tell you that spectacle only holds me for 5 seconds at most. write something decent or fuck off. thats how it works.
It's because they have nothing to say or their ideas are extremely weak. This is why they bombard the audience with endless noise to distract them. Then end it with a strong emotional moment that makes everyone cry and they'll leave the theater feeling like they just watched something amazing, completely forgetting the first 98% of the film.
avengers in a nutshell
Older movies with less special effects capabilities made up for it by relying on a good story to draw you in. Now it’s the inverse, just be dazzled by the pretty lights and loud noises, ignore the lack of substance.
Facts
Same could be said of leadership in many sectors. Dont look at the results, just listen to the pretty words they say whenever their jobs are threatened
Even the pretty stuff is ugly today. Ugly CGI, ugly actors, ugly acting, ugly agendas pushing hate, we are expected to eat it up. I say no more.
This is why it's always amazing when you stumble across the rare example of modern high budget big effects films that manage to remember the good story: MAD MAX FURY ROAD and BLADE RUNNER 2049, for example. But they're rarities.
A perfect example of no setup and payoff is Rey finding out she is Palpatine’s granddaughter in ROS… literally never hinted at and in fact directly contradicts TLJ where we learn she is a ‘nobody’. Or how about the setup of Finn being an ex stormtrooper and the story doing nothing with it so we never get a payoff?!
Acktchually, Finn's set-up and payoff (in ep 9) is 5 movies in the making. So he's a stormtrooper right? And since episode 4 stormtroopers have been shown as the run-of-the-mill baddies only effective when they overwhelming outnumber the good guys. Well Finnis an individual stormtrooper.and by the end of episode 9 we see that his impact on the overall trilogy has been as insignificant as you should expect from an individual stormtrooper. Payoff!!!
So why was he even billed as a major protagonist? Subversion of expectations!!! Amazing isn't it?
/facetious
Setup and Payoff and/or Chekov's Gun is such a less-and-less-understood Thing nowadays that i FEAR i cant even say:
Its not actually 'absolute' and some Masters have actually Skills that are beyond it.
The Master-Author Togashi has made a famous Masterpiece known as ‚HunterxHunter’ and his Writing-Style is actively ignoring Setup-and-such AND IT WORKS.
Its hard to explain,
but seriously, that Guy’s skill has trancended Chekovs Gun,
which in itself proves that its possible (though rare af), which is interesting-to-know.
But we cant even start to study such Genius when we must first ‚regain’ the ‚Quality we already had’, if you know what i mean.
@Max Strike The guy was emperor of the galaxy. Ladies readily hop into bed with guys far less powerful than that, so it's not really surprising he'd still be getting busy if he was still able to.
@Max Strike Pretty sure it is said Rey is a daughter of a cloned younger Palpatine, before he electrocuted himself. Given how good he looked in his late 50s or how old he is supposed to be in prequels, I imagine 30s Palpatine was not bad looking guy.
Rey is an immense boor
One of the main reasons I rewatch good movies or reread books is to find the setups for the payoffs that I know are coming, which shows that the writer was thinking ahead and writing a cohesive narrative.
On the other hand I am also completely tired of very lazy implementations of "Chekhov's gun", where the setup is so obvious, that you can see it from miles away and pretty much predict a big outcome of the whole movie because of it. As you said - a setup needs to be clever and used in multiple ways to work properly.
I see Checkov's gun as a necessary evil. It's not good because it telegraphs the plot, but it's needed as a consequence of both setup/payoff and the law of conservation of detail, as we can assume such "guns" are important to the plot as a decent writer wouldn't bother wasting our time if they werent.
Depends how they do it. If they make it too obbious then it is awful, but if they are subtle about it then it can be brilliant.
@@turbo8628 absolutely, but I think it is really hard to pull of properly.
@@Brainfracture definitely not easy to pull off. Even if it doesn't work exctly as planned though, it at least shows they have some idea of what they are doing, and can always be passed off as foreshadowing.
The lack of it just comes across as the disjointed storytelling abilities of a toddler.
"Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there" -Chekhov
I think about this all the time, especially when I’m writing. 😉👍🏼
Just watched Shang Chi and I thought to myself that they could have fixed Awkwafina's character SO SO SO easily by just making her a former olympian archer that had her shot at a Gold medal ripped from her when everyone got Thanos'ed in the women's archery finals. Which made her feel like nothing was worth it any more since all her life's work could become dust at any time, and she can take more offense when her friend comments that she needs to make something of herself and not just be a hotel valet.
This could explain why she has no dreams and aspirations, and most importantly WHY SHE IS A SUPERB ARCHER AT THE END OF THE MOVIE and complete her character journey.
you see your problem is that unlike the Disney writers you actually want to create/see a character with more depth and breadth than a half full shot glass
WTF does a bottle of overpriced water have to do with this entire discussion?
I decided to rewatch The Rock after Sean Connery's death and was blown away by how well structured it was compared to the modern blockbusters. Yes, it has some signature Michael Bay silliness but it takes care to set up the antagonist, the main threat and the protagonist background and skills and why they need the help of an aging James Bond. I feel even the dumb fun movies from the 1980s/90s (Police Academy comes to mind) has better stories than most of the stuff today.
A random 24min episode of Pete & Pete is more rewarding to me than the last dozen or so "full length motion pictures" I have seen from this past decade.
The best action movies ever made? Are the ones where you question afterwards if the villain was actually the villain. That maybe they were right and just their approach was questionable. Marvel tried to do this with Endgame. They suggested that Thanos' whole point was that the universe was over populated with sentient beings and he needed to do a drastic population control measure to give the universe a breather so that starvation and diseases wouldn't take effect. To kill everyone quick so that nobody had to suffer.
The problem with that particular delivery though is that even if he was correct and the galaxy was too populated, his approach was only short term. Once sentient beings adjusted to the new normal, the population density would be right back to where it was 100 earth years later. If not less. And with the Loki TV show, that the infinity stones were a bit more common than people knew so reversing the impact of the gauntlet was always going to be an option even without time travel.
The same can be said about Game of Thrones. A very complex book series with more subplots than swiss cheese has holes and trying to make them all make sense was near impossible. Even if the initial books had great buildup and delivery, once the writers for the TV show ran out of source material, they pretty much realized there was no way to deliver a clean resolution to reach the projected end point in the story. They also couldn't justify characters being in the locations that they were in the time frames they had for travel. The last two seasons was a mess just trying to force the story to reach a defined intended ending. (It is also why I think Martin hasn't released another book. Too many things going on with too many paths needing to converge and still have a expected climatic ending that is probably simply not obtainable.)
I don't think Marvel tried it with Endgame, I cannot imagine them thinking anybody would side with him. But Civil War, Homecoming, Far From Home, Ant-Man and the Wasp, Blackpanther and probably 1-2 more are better examples of the villains just going a bit to far.
@@superdave8248 If you like heros as villans and villans as heros, look up the old Flesh and Blood, its about a smale mercenary company in late medieval time in Italy.
Movies today rely too much on the action scenes & visuals (esp CGI) at the expense of story & literary qualities. I'm sure that the studio's market research & box office results show that these are what the modern audience wants. Keeping up with a good story takes too much effort and attention.
In Empire Strikes Back they mentioned "no ship that small has a cloaking device". I would have liked to have seen cloaking devices used.
LOL that's some setup! A single line in a movie 40 years earlier, pays off with a single line by another character in another movie.
@@MrJeffcoley1 it was the same with "hyperspace tracking". rouge one had that throwaway label be the set up for the entire chase scene in TLJ. So what they said was true, from a certain point of view
The old EU did that fine. Cloaking devices were obscure technology that was difficult to use because it also made the ship using it blind. It took genius like Thrawn to figure effective stratagems for it.
@@Kissamiess Real shame KK and Disney tossed out the entire EU
@@Kissamiess Darth Maul's ship had one. I wish we got to see it used.
Content Killed Art.
Sup Gundam
It's a Gundam!
Cinema & rock 'n' roll both died with the internet
Even in the comment section Gundam is being suppressed by the algorithm
Papa!
Tremors is such an entertaining, well-made and all around fun movie that didn't take itself too seriously. The 90's really knew the true meaning of "show don't tell" - especially when it came to female characters. The entire cast of characters in this movie are so well-written! The movie really gives a sense of complete, multi dimensional "real people". Charming, witty, intelligent protagonists make all the difference when it comes to relating to a story. The tone is surprising light considering its technically a "monster movie". Love this flick and is definitely a go-to I've seen way too many times!
The only thing that excites me about the movies these days are older films that are released in 4K. With the home theater it's glorious to revisit old classics. Modern Chinawood can suck it.
It's spelt Hollywood.
@@willspeakman2461 He’s referring to Hollywood’s current trend of pandering to China in order to make obscene amounts of cash.
They suck because you people go and watch them ... or you pay netflix and other shit to watch them... It's the public who is financing this shit.
I never knew Tremors starred a guy who had played an astronaut and a guy who went on to play an astronaut. (The Right Stuff, Apollo XIII, haven't seen them? Should)
@@willspeakman2461 You must be fun at parties
I'd love to see this sort of analysis of specific storytelling techniques become a regular feature of your channel. You clearly know more about writing than the majority of today's hacks.
I recommend checking out lessons from the screenplay.
If you haven't already, look at "The Drinker Fixes" videos. He explains how sometimes just a few minor tweaks can save a character and elevate a movie. My personal favorite is his re-write of Captain Marvel, but The Last Jedi is a close second.
Drinker's Writing courses online. A true Masterclass if you will.
Honestly, anyone that's read a few books about story writing/fiction writing is better than a lot of the writers working for Hollywood. They probably got there through nepotism or affirmative action/quotas.
He's written a lot of books
My wife and I watched Nobody recently. That movie did an excellent job of setting things up and paying them off. There was no fat. Everything served a purpose, in a great way.
Yeah, Nobody is an awesome movie. I hope Drinker sees it. It is a better watch than the Taken & John Wick sequels.
Absolutely the most entertaining flick of the year
Off topic but I love the character development of Tatiana on this channel so far!
She went from the drinker’s favorite stripper to probably girlfriend/secretary and editor.
Now that’s a story.
I love how those laser blasts in TLJ travel in an arc as if it's being affected by gravity when it's in space...
Maybe Rian Johnson knows something about space we don't, eh?
Gravity still affects things in space. The warping of space by an object present can cause an arching of objects. Granted this is called lensing and basically only affects light but it's a movie lol
@@commentguy4711 not in free fall, i.e. orbit. Which is what most things are in in space.
@@Ruiluth If Wanted taught us anything, you can curve bullets and lasers.
It's actually an optical illusion, caused by our misunderstanding of scale. A similar effect occurs when you take a panoramic photo - parallel lines appear to curve. It annoys me that they got this effect right, along with the overall appearance and sound, but that just about everything else was wrong.
On the matter of them failing to scan for small craft...
In the first movie, within the first few minutes, an operator takes the time to inform Vader of an escape pod despite his readings telling him there isn’t even anyone onboard.
This is going to make me sound so much nerdier than I actually am: In the first movie, they were scanning for life forms, as in living organic creatures. R2D2 and C3P0 were the only ones onboard, so their presence did not register. I think I see your point of an operator informing Vader of an escape pod even if it was seemingly empty.
As much as I’m over/done with TLJ - slagging it off never gets old!
The thing I hate is how people who like the movie act like they're geniuses, and everyone else just "doesn't get it."
Don't get me wrong.
I enjoy TLJ for what it is...
...But what it is for me is the movie that ruined Star Wars
Wait... Did they rip off the plot from the BSG episode 33 and fuck it up? I would have been ok with them ripping off the Timothy Zahn plotline and fucking it up, least you could have called it trying... but ripping off the plot of a tv show episode*... and hoping no one would notice?
I have no idea I guess, I saw Force Awakens, went home to the ol IMDB forums (rip) had a essay off with a fanboi who simply couldn't understand that the force may surround us but that doesn't mean it fills up plotholes... pushed back that sinking feeling that things had changed a bit since having essay offs about the construction of History of Violence and the character presentation...ect... and had no intention of watching a JJ flick ever again.
Also, as a side note, I did end up seeing the second as I was high off that whole Rogue One vibe since I had always put Rian and Gareth in the same indigrouping, dunno why... maybe I saw brick and monsters in a close span or something....and as some one that saw Looper in the theater about 6 times, can't hold the second against Rian Johnson... The Guy knows how and what to do to make a good movie, proved it with Knives Out real quick right after, and seeing where this whole shit was going, accounting that jj blackholed the entire startrek universe out of canonical existence just cause he wanted to make a starwars movie... and when he did, made force awakens...
just didn't give a shit, if anything I hope he did it to troll the fuck out of all the little cunts that thought force awakens was a decent movie, or that disregarding the expanded universe was acceptable... or that trying to re-do new hope in chronological succession was somehow ok... eh... fuck em and fuck starwars at this point, only real quality outside of ILM anyhow came from the expanded universe at least story wise... so I guess nevermind it all?
What would be a real tragedy is if Rian is boxed out from making the movies he makes when he's not trolling... Also, the fuck happened to Gareth Edwards? Pretty sure objectively from a film quality, story, dialogue, acting ect... (all the meat) Rogue One is the best StarWars film thus far (technical best, points for first are very much weighted here...). Guy Dropped off the face of the earth it seemed?
Here's to hoping he just took his money and ran... though I would be sad if he never did any more film work. My other theory is he got boxed out for not being shitty or some other production crew Disney politics shite, I mean he did fuck up by making a good movie... but as far as twats go it didn't stand out as anything special given the tide hadn't turned yet when everyone would change their minds about the Abrhillogy... So here's to hopin now that no one seems to give a flying fuck about the lucas film machine that if he did get blacklisted, that shit gets forgotten like we forget basic facts or news in the modern age...
*(which is an incredible episode btw, that first season of BSG reboot was such proper mil-sci, too bad they couldn't help but succumb to the great edge-lord's callings from the great hot topic beyond... still for what it was and When it was, brilliant. Go figure one of the lead writers from Next Generation can make a show that's the polar opposite of it and pull it off far longer than it had any right to.
Red letter media's Plinkett Prequel reviews never get old either.
@@jakedill1304 My theory is that Rian Johnson is actually a bad writer and an average director, but his movies are carried by incredibly strong performances. Rewatching Brick and watching Knives Out, the writing is actually quite bad, not mediocre, bad. But, the direction is decent and the acting is exceptional, so you forgive it for a lot.
The problem with The Last Jedi might be that the acting just wasn't good enough to make people forgive the bad writing.
All this reminds me of what John Cleese said about the process of writing any given episode of Fawlty Towers: any time a plot point had to be made out of necessity, they would always try to make it as funny as possible. That way, the audience would absorb the plot point, but they would think it was put in there only to be funny and nothing more.
Setup and Payoff and/or Chekov's Gun is such a less-and-less-understood Thing nowadays that i FEAR i cant even say:
Its not actually 'absolute' and some Masters have actually Skills that are beyond it.
The Master-Author Togashi has made a famous Masterpiece known as ‚HunterxHunter’ and his Writing-Style is actively ignoring Setup-and-such AND IT WORKS.
Its hard to explain,
but seriously, that Guy’s skill has trancended Chekovs Gun,
which in itself proves that its possible (though rare af), which is interesting-to-know.
But we cant even start to study such Genius when we must first ‚regain’ the ‚Quality we already had’, if you know what imean.
The sad part in all of this? Writing is the SINGLE, MOST IMPORTANT thing in ANY story - that is what determines if the plot is engaging, if the characters have substance, if the overall setting even makes sense... and yet it is continously overlooked and underpraised.
The only instances when people recall there is such a position as "writer" (this seems to be particularly visible in movies) is when that basic element is done very poorly alongside every, other element, because then it is used as an excuse that "special effects" or "good acting" couldn't have a bad script. News flash: acting would have to be EXTREMELY bad, to bring down a solid script and most sophisticated audience care relatively little about special effects being flashy. What such people care about are plot and characters, which are - at least to me - the MOST VALUABLE aspects of any story.
And no: I am not giving ANY story a "pass" on either, even if these stories are part of my beloved franchise.
i think at this point we've all learnt to stop having a "beloved franchise", after what hollywood have done to wreck everything we used to love XD
I have had to give up on "modern" cinema due to just how bad the writing is. I'll try to watch a movie occasionally, but I almost always end up having my immersion destroyed when a character does something that goes so against the narrative and setup that I can't take it. The worst are the ones where the writers clearly had an agenda that is outside any cultural norm that exists so they have a character act completely irrationally in a way that seems determined to provide the worst possible outcome. I'm savvy enough to know that people do dumb things, but in real life its rarely quite so obvious to everyone that what they are about to do is lemming-like in its suicidal stupidity.
Unfortunately for writers, when a script is perfectly written, if flows like water and you never even think about what went into its manufacture because you're caught up in the narrative. It's only when a script is terrible that you get jarred out of the action and start complaining about the hack that produced it. Granted, though, that the people who DO make stories SHOULD know better than to ignore the writing.
Too many Avatar fans don't know who Aaron Ehasz is.
Setup and Payoff and/or Chekov's Gun is such a less-and-less-understood Thing nowadays that i FEAR i cant even say:
Its not actually 'absolute' and some Masters have actually Skills that are beyond it.
The Master-Author Togashi has made a famous Masterpiece known as ‚HunterxHunter’ and his Writing-Style is actively ignoring Setup-and-such AND IT WORKS.
But we cant even start to study such Genius when we must first ‚regain’ the ‚Quality we already had’, if you know what imean.
Doc: I'm sorry Marty, but the only thing capable of generating that sort of power and sending you back to the future is a bolt of lightning. The trouble is, you never know when or where one of those will strike.
Screenwriter: Got you covered on that one Doc
That one was set up well though. Earlier in the movie, before the time travel, it is mentioned that a lightning hit the clock tower and that it still hasn't been fixed after 30 years. The same lightning that lets Marty go home.
Bad example, as the lightning strike was set up very early in the movie.
@@sidnew2739 Yes, that was my point. The screenwriters covered it, as in they set it up.
@@Rubbersoulful Oh, ok. I thought you were using irony. Damned internet.
"Back to the Future" is an absolute masterclass in set-up and pay-off. Everything that happens in the first half hour is set-up and there is a pay-off to it later in the movie. There is also set-up and pay-off outside of the first hour too, but that where the bulk the set-up happens.
The reason is the special effects take so long to create that the action scenes are plotted before the script is finalized. Once they start making the action it quickly becomes too expensive to correct as the whole team works as fast as they can to meet the deadline. Obvious errors are papered over with on-the-spot rewrites. In fact, there have been stories of movies being taken out of directors' hands before they're even done fine-tuning because the deadline has passed. And don't forget that film writers are not respected and their original ideas are usually re-written.
Good points.
Add to that "but it'll look cool". Whether it makes sense or not.
As much as movies are made to make money in the cinema, these days there's trailer fodder. We want "moments". 15- to 30-second clips that will go viral and help sell a movie. And that you can put in the trailer.
Zack Snyder films are filled with this. The Amazing Spiderman 2 is the worst offender.
Mate, I can't even begin to express my love for simple setup and payoffs. It's genuinely my favorite part of script writing and when I'm watching a movie that does it well, I'm in love.
My bf and I love pointing these out when they happen. We get enjoyment out of noticing all the details.
*_TREMORS!!!_*
Oh my god, that's what is was called!! That movie scared the life out of me when I was a kid - the weeks that followed was an most exhausting game of The Floor is Lava
I only saw 5 seconds from the movie, thought it was a dream.
Tremors is my all time favorite movie. I squealed so hard when he used it as a good example in this video of set up and pay off. I have always said that Tremors is a perfect movie. It encompasses most genres (horror, drama, comedy, romance, action, thriller, sci-fi), well casted and acted. The writing is surprisingly great and the characters are loveable and completely believable. I 100% believe this little desert town exists when I'm watching it and so few movies allow me to immerse this well.
I remember watching Tremors as a kid. It was a cheesy and fun “B” style genre movie.
I never imagined that YEARS later the script and directing would be PRAISED for being done so well.
But it is absolutely true. So much time and care was taken in making Tremors.
That is INSANE to me, considering the budgets and intentions….etc. But also amazing to see in retrospect.
And when quarter billon dollar movies are pretty but incompetently put together, it just makes the jaw drop.
The CHEAPEST part of the budget is the script. You can spend years working on it if you want.
But Hollywood is in too much of a hurry. Just write SOMETHING down, and we will fix it in post production.
We have to get MORE movies in the feed! Keep cranking them out until they don’t make money anymore….
Shaun of the Dead is another movie that does the setup/pay off thing brilliantly. They exposed the outcomes of characters (even the whole story) in the first twenty minutes, still made it work.
That was all for the greater good. And the real motivations (ugly house) are hilarious when set off against the proposed motivations by Angel.
@@dikkie1000 You're thinking Hot Fuzz. Shaun of the Dead was the zombie one.
@@ElleEmm Ah yes, you're right. But Hot Fuzz also has great setups and callbacks (even to Shaun of the Dead - see the fence jump).
@@dikkie1000 Absolutely! They keep the same bit in World's End, as well. It's honestly one of my favorite trilogies.
Shaun of the Dead and Hot Fuzz are both great comedies.
Eve Online solves the "big ship seeing little ship" thing with something that could have easily been adapted into Star Wars.
In effect, there are two things that determine how well a ship locks onto another ship. Scan resolution and signature radius. Scan resolution is, loosely, how quickly your ship can lock onto another ship. Small ships have high scan resolution, large ships have lower scan resolution. Signature radius is how "big" your ship is to other ship's scanners, small ships have small signature radii, big ships have big.
Large ships, with their low signature resolution (larger sensors can't work in granularity very well or something) cannot quickly lock onto small ships (with their very small signature radius).
All they had to do for this film was go "we have to create a window of opportunity to jettison the transports. They won't be able to lock onto the smaller ships as quickly and we have an opportunity to escape." And then come up with some sensor jamming / place the big ship between the bad guys and the small ships / literally whatever, but instead we get "decloaking scan" when they're clearly not under cloak.
These writers have zero passion or knowledge for/of scifi, or what could even pass as modern day electronic warfare.
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Wow! That's actually a smart idea.
“It’s only a movie, lol”
And thus, we can not have any nicer things anymore.
A basic tenet of economics, and psychology is: that which you reward, you will get more of in the future.
it's the same shit we see in games. People keep paying the moronically high prices for in-game items, publishers keep putting more MTs and payed DLC into games.
Or like society man once said, "You get what you fucking deserve."
@@Ketaruz I prefer what William Money said in Unforgiven, "Deserve has nothing to do with it."
@@jimbo9305 That's in reference to things which just happen to you. Sometimes, bad things happen to good people. The string of shitty media we're getting the last few years, we definitely deserve, in every sense of the word.
I was fearing it was just me turning boomer this year, but you nailed it!
There is something fundamental wrong and boring with movies these days.
It's like the industry is just full of circle jerks who have no business making movies
I thought I was just losing touch as well.
How does one "turn boomer"?
@Bender Bending Rodriguez It's just a tongue-in-cheek figure of speech indicating he's getting older. Geesh, lighten up Francis.
Boomers are not the worst thing ever, that is another stupid trait of the internet latched onto for certain modern idiots who do know certain older people have more experience in their lifetime in their youth than select modern new kids and teens gave in their whole life