Touché... It's the other way around. That El Primero movement may have been changed by Rolex but one cannot deny that the movement decides how the watch should look. 😁
I have a Tudor BB58 and other $1k+ watches and have never gotten a compliment or comment. 2 people have complimented my watches and they were a pagani and Vostok both under $100. Buy what you like because no one else will care
@@chaoseus i don't think that is what he is saying at all, i think what he is saying is most people don't know anything, he got more compliment from wearing cheap watches than a swiss. he is not saying he wears tudor to get compliments. i do the same thing i wear my tudor, longines, and omega when i feel like it, i also wear my seiko, citizen, timex, and orient just as much, if i was fishing for compliments i would never wear them.
San Martin homages are not ok, yet your Seiko homage is ok because as you said, you are not willing to pay 30,000 for the real deal?!?! this video is just weird. Every point contradicts the previous one.
Yeah some parts didn't go down well with me either, if you are not willing to pay 30,000 for the real vintage deal, it's ok to go copy-homage? How about not willing to pay 30,000 for the real modern daytona deal and go copy-homage instead, or even full replicas? Btw having the Seiko branding on a watch that is not a real Seiko is as close to a replica as it can be as well... You can definitely get full original parts vintage watches, you just need loads of money. My personal view is that, buy what you feel you are happy with that you can afford, be it gen, homage, or even replica.
Until one's standards for homages is absolute (from watches, clothes, cars, houses, etc), any opinion will contradict itself because there's no baseline standard the one making the opinion is operating from. There is value in hearing opinions from the collective hive mind, but ultimately the only thing that matter is if it's legal and whether or not you're enjoying it.
The sad part is I'd rather take my chances with a San Martin over a Seiko these days, their quality control has gone downhill and San Martin has picked up dramatically in quality and bang for buck. Sometimes my partner and I play "How many misaligned Seiko's are in this store?"
@@FlauspidSyalon Yea I have the exact same sentiments. You can't ever justify homages cuz there will always be a contradiction to your justification. Just get what floats your boat, and remember that people with differing opinions are everywhere. It's up to you whether you wanna care about them or not
Your justification for vintages homages works just the same for modern homages. You’re not paying $35k for a red sub? Well, people buying San Martins aren’t paying $12k for a modern sub either. Like you say, the name on the dial says it’s not a Rolex, so it’s not a Rolex.
Max - I found the Zenith vs Daytona comparison a bit ironic. Recall that Zenith made the movements for the early Daytonas. So which one is the real homage?
If I'm not mistaken, rolex did the general design of the Daytona before the chronomaster as we know it? So i think it goes either way Edit: I'm not disagreeing, the mvt came first from zenith, but homages are all about looks
i dont get the comparison at all tbh. white dial, black ceramic bezel, tri-compax. i dont think anyone outside of the watch hobby would look at those watches side by side and have any difficulty distinguishing the two apart. when you try to take ownership of colors, you've kind of lost the plot, especially when those colors are.... black and white... i find it equally ridiculous that no one can use a red and blue gmt bezel without it being called a gmt master homage.
@bosco1603 all Zenith did really was add a ceramic bezel to their case. It would be like calling a car desogn a rip-off because manufacturers added a spoiler or an open grill
@@kleanovodust-bin69 Unfortunately wearing a rolux is an 'I'm a simp, who's easy to grift, so please feel free to rob me again, because I clearly enjoy it' statement piece. 😇
My personal view is that only watch snobs would say such things . Not every one could afford watches so let them enjoy things within their means. If you care much about such matters, work hard and join the watch company’s legal department to deal with such matters professionally. At the end of the day , who are we to judge someone who earns little but love watches or the design of ap/pp/rolex? I thought watch community is supposed to be nice and supportive ? By the way, it is not that they are lesser than you, they are just not in the right country as you are to be able to afford watches as hobby. No hate , just speaking from my observation from traveling the world and meeting people who love watches
I was literally about to type exactly what you said. I have not always been fortunate to enjoy the collection I currently have, and didn't think twice about buying a homage to scratch the itch. You cannot say people should not be able to enjoy a Rolex Submariner if they can't afford it - Get a homage so you can get somewhat of a taste. We are certainly not to judge. To do so brings a certain snob behaviour into a hobby I love.
>the watch community being nice & supportive Ah, maybe at the entry/mass consumer level, but the second you start tying your personal sense of self worth with your net worth, & then displaying that worth with a Submariner or w/e, someone else having just as nice a time with a knock off that cost a fraction of what you paid is a personal attack to that kind of insecure person.
If I can't afford an original design, then I won't buy that design, in original or homage form. I'd rather have a cheap original design Casio, rather than a wannabe watch.
Dude... I typically love your content and I genuinely believe that you mean no offense with your takes in this video, but I have to tell you that this comes across as a little tone deaf. I recently quit my sales career in the UK to work in the public sector for work life balance and stress related reasons. Previously I never considered it a big deal to drop £2k-£5k on a watch every quarter when I got a bonus. In my new role I attended a meeting in my Rolex Explorer, nothing out of the ordinary in my last job, and I could feel the judgement coming from one of my senior colleagues who was wearing a £300 Japanese watch. I now earn just under half of my previous take home pay and realise that actually, a £200 watch is now a considered purchase. It's not like I wouldn't like to add a white dial speedy, or a GS Shunbun to my already decent collection, but I'd now have to save 3-4 years for a watch of that cost. This is something I'd never really thought about before (% of disposable income after tax). I'm happy in my new job, but dude, as a doctor you can't be telling people that they can't purchase homage watches, and if they can't afford to buy an original £6k+ watch, they should only be allowed to buy micro brands. Could you restrict yourself to only one watch purchase every 3+ years? Or worse, feel okay about being told by someone who can afford to buy the original watch you like that you can only buy watches that don't look the same, just because you are too poor to buy the original? C'mon now, you're unintentionally gatekeeping at best and coming across as a snob at worst. It's up to the individual to decide on how they spend their paycheck.
My replica's get more wrist time than my gens. Simply because I love their designs and dials. I couldn't care less what brand they pretend to be. Nobody notices or cares what watch you are wearing anyway. But I just love the designs and aren't willing to pay tens of thousands for something I can get for $100.
I personally think that owning, say, a nicely crafted San Martin homage of a Tudor or Rolex, makes one more likely to purchase the real McCoy - not less. It’s a net benefit to the Swiss watch industry because it gives them more attention. After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
@jmemphisTX so 50k a year will be what, 35k after taxes? That's barely rent money. A speedy reduced would be like a months take home pay. The real world sucks.
I think no matter how much money one makes, there's always the option of buying something original that is within reach. A similar argument would sound a bit like this: I don't have enough time to write an A grade paper, I will plagiarize. I think a B, original paper would be better. A Speedtimer, no matter how good or significant it is, does not define a person. No watch does. The same goes for how much one makes or what one does for a living.
Why is a vintage homage ok because you don’t want to spend $30k or they aren’t readily available but a homage explorer isn’t good? I can’t go to Rolex and buy an explorer today (I’ve tried…went omega instead).
I've done the same thing. I've been on the "waiting list" for three years for an Explorer I or white dial Explorer II. In that time. In that time I've bought a Tag Heuer Monaco, an Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean and said F- it on the Rolex and used that money to buy a Mustang instead. If the AD ever calls me I will tell them I gave up on playing their game.
Unless you're sitting down right next to someone, odds are they can't tell what you're wearing, and 99% of the time, they won't care. The only person that does? You. Wear what you want and what makes you happy. The only other person that may care is a watch snob, but do you really care about what they think?
Some of us watch lovers do not have the disposable income to buy expensive watches. Your argument walks really closely to a 'let them eat cake' kind of blindspot. Is a Toyota a "homage" of Mercedes? They are similar products that perform similar roles but at different price points for differing budgets. There is room in the market for less wealthy people to have the opportunity to own a less expensive product.
I agree with both of you. If someone is set on a Rolex that they may never afford, I suggest the homage instead of fakes. Personally I am more like Max and seek more original designs
On paper, i agree with you. I live in a country with generally low income but i love Cartier Tank’s design. I bought a Fauxtier Tank before there were Sanda Tank, and to be honest Seiko Tanks are also out of my budget. And i do have a Casio “Tank” like the AQ-230. But to be honest, nowdays i don’t really wear the Fauxtier Tank anymore, and seek more original designs. And ironically, my AQ-230 got more wrist time than my Fauxtier Tank.
@@WatchCrunchOfficial I suggest you let ppl buy what they want without projecting your ‘I’m rich and can afford the real thing’ onto them for literally no good reason other than to make poor ppl feel bad. But you do you.
You're missing the point. You wouldn't buy a Toyota and then put a Mercedes black series body kit on it to try and convince people you own a c63 black series would you? So why buy a copy of a luxury watch? It's douchey and you can get a lot more genuine respect from wearing a decent Seiko, citizen, Tissot, Hamilton or any number of micro brands. Most people don't care what you're wearing anyway but if you're caught with a fake you either look like a poser or like someone who has been duped into buying a fake watch and therefore can't know much about the hobby. Either way, you lose.
This is a bad take. Watch Crunch is suppose to be a fun community where folks can share their love of watches regardless of brand, clomage, homage, etc. When you add this level of snobbery, it becomes like every other watch community. The reality is people rarely notices what you wear. Wear it because you enjoy it not because you care what someone else thinks.
San Martin would be good enough for me. The problem is that they don't seem to be interested in creating a decent logo. I've already owned a couple of their watches. But since the logo is ugly they rarely found the way to my wrist. So for me at the moment it's Clean Factory.
Well, in a realistic perspective, the majority of people will never have the capability to have the disposable income to buy a genuine Rolex, Patek, AP, Omega etc. Ultimately, homage brands are there to give a person the feeling of owning a thing that looks like a watch that they can/will never buy, and people who support these homage companies does not deserve the hate because people can buy what they want to buy, and wear what they want to wear since they paid using their own hard-earned money.
@@YKYuji Agree 100%. Watch snobs are snobbish and just can't stand it when someone actually gets pleasure from something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They can take all the seats as far as I'm concerned.
@jeanlefranc3817 Who said homage watches are 10 year old Corollas? Homage watches are pretty much well built, with respectable specs as well. Plus, the buyer is well aware of what they are buying, as these homage watches are pretty clear in branding their logo and company name in the dials. Toyota Corollas are pretty nice and durable too! 🤔
Exactly. I can never understand the idea that a Rolex homage is somehow hurting Rolex. First of all, Rolex is fine, no one should be worried about them. And second, what is even the argument? It's not like they're poaching a Rolex customer! If someone can't/won't buy a $10,000 watch, there's very little chance that will change. They were never going to be a Rolex customer, so Rolex loses nothing. If anything they benefit because the desire for homages just validates the special status of the "real thing". There's no cross pollination between Rolex customers and those who can't/won't buy one. It's not anyone who would buy a $200 homage is on the fence and they're just waiting for a 1% price drop from Rolex. Don't let anyone tell you this isn't simple, old fashioned snobbery and that it's not all about money and status. These people aren't getting up in arms about SKMEI ripping off Casio, ffs... If you bought a GMT Master because you love the design, or because the quality of finishing and movement is worth it to you, than someone wearing a similar but cheaper watch wouldn't bother you at all. If you bought a GMT Master as a status symbol that's when you get mad at an homage because someone is dilluting your silly flex and making it feel less special. Such an entitled attitude.
I (and many other ordinary people) can't afford a $10,000+ watch. A homage is a legal way to experience most of the style of a certain watch, but pay what is affordable (for me, under $300, but I have good homage watches as cheap as $60)!
For most of the population in the world what he calls tier 2 homages is as close as we can get to some of the watches we love but could never afford. I am not saying they will replace the original but defenitly give a good taste of what they may feel like and you don't have to mortgage your house to own one
Well said! I am lucky to be able to afford expensive watches but refuse to get swindled, spécialement by nouveau riche pieces of 💩 that make watches that cost very little to make, but are sold at exorbitantly inflated prices but that an *artificially inflated, btw,* bunch of school-girl-like cheerleaders happily leave their dignity at "their" AD's door, just for the "opportunity" to grovel and beg for their money to be taken away!😅😅😅
You are supposed to now feel bad for being poor. He is rich so therefore better than you in all ways. Only he can wear certain designs that originated with luxury watchmakers. You can only have watches that look cheap. Sorry. I doubt he thinks this way in reality. This video is about generating views. I think that actually makes him worse than the above. You enjoy your or re extra legal watches mate and never let anyone put you down or make you feel less than them. You have more integrity than this TH-camr could ever dream of having.
I love the top tier homages. They make 90% if the watch they're inspired by at 1/50 of the price. Show's how much the big companies are gouging their customers.
I haven't yet handled the Tudor Ranger but I've watched some videos comparing it to various clones, and from everything I've seen my San Martin is easily as crisply finished. The ethical question of homages aside, if you typically aren't focused on the movement inside then there's only aesthetics to consider; I'm drowning in amazing (often original) options from dozens of indies and micros before even needing to *think* about breaking the $1K mark.
@pktsqr I bought a Cronos BB38 to see if I loved the style & went in to buy the real deal when I did love the style. Left without it though totally no better that the Cronos finishing wise (I mean it was a wee bit better) but it was also 50x the price. The Cronos also runs about +2s per day...
Message to the watch industry. Bring the price of your watches down to 'affordable' levels and then homages disappear like scotch mist. The watch industry collaborates in keeping prices artificially high by limiting supply and accessibility. Fair enough. That's their right. Mine is to say 'To hell with you. I'll buy a quality homage instead and a new car with the change.' PS I couldn't care less about what other people think of the watch I'm wearing. I enjoy it. That's all that counts.
I own Omega, Breitling, Rolex, Tag, Hamilton, Baume, Timex, Casio, San Martin, Ipose, Cronos, etc. (you get my point). And, if I removed the logos from all of my watches, I would be hard pressed to justify the higher prices of most of the "expensive " vs. the "inexpensive " ones. They all tell time, and I don't need atomic clock precision to live my life. The watch rabbit hole is just that, a hole. Or "money pit", if you prefer?
Alot of people mod Seikos because entry level are few hundred dollars and mod them to express they're own unique design language. That's different to a Seiko mod replicating another watch model with just a change in the logo.
@@tuberaider If changing the wheels and arches of a car doesn’t mean removing the badge, why should modding a watch dial mean stripping the logo? Some enthusiasts can argue its built on the original maker’s foundation
He's hypocritical. He "approves" of some homages but not others. That's not how it works. Almost all watches are derivative in some way. Wear what you want and move on.
I don’t care what anyone thinks. Chinese homages totally scratched my itch for the Swiss originals and I only focus on interesting indies/micros. I know a guy with a nice seamaster and I like to show him my chomegas.
Lol after being a watch enthusiast for over a decade owning omega Rolex Cartier and tons of homage Ali brands Ive realized this. Watches aren’t that serious and even a Patek looks like any other watch even in person. Yea I said it. TH-camrs and social media hype up watches making them seem more important than they are.
Totally agree. Some people attach too much of their identity to the watch they wear. Others just see it as a fun hobby, and that’s the way it should be
The analogies using “if I were a few drinks in I’d wear” and comparing a watch with multiple design cues to half one woman, half another came off as a little tasteless.
The "disrespectful to hardworking watch designers" is pretty ridiculous. They are company designs, and most are in the public domain - fair game to copy. Nothing illegal or unethical about it.
Agreed. Most of the designers of these watches are long dead. Plus it suggests making the watch to a high standard is a piece of piss. Design is the easier empathy of the process - the bit anyone can do (hence TH-camrs do it!). Manufacturing is the true skill.
The watch snobs cry about their perceived status, they can't understand popular culture. Should Ralph Lauren stop making polo shirts invented by Lacoste? Should only Levi's be allowed to make jeans?
Agree 100% on the AliExpress copies. Soooo many watch TH-camrs call them homages. The only thing those manufacturers are paying respect to or honouring is the money derived from their lazy rip-offs. They in no way, shape or form give you the ‘experience’ of the real thing.
Generally I agree with you. I also like the idea of putting them in ‘tiers’ - very deserving! I struggle with Tier 2 the most though - I own several in this category and thoroughly enjoy them. I’ve taken them on a lot of adventures because if they break or get stolen - oh well, it was cheap! Even if I felt compelled to buy the more expensive original of this category, I probably would rarely wear them because of how much they cost; ultimately taking away from the relationship I have with those watches. As others have mentioned as well, many will never be able to reasonably afford a $10-15k watch - who are we to rain on their parade if they enjoy the wearing experience of a San Martin, etc.? The other part I struggle with in Tier 2 - it’s wildly and inconsistently subjective. As you’ve alluded to in this video: a vintage homage is acceptable when it has Seiko written on it and not Rolex, because it’s clearly telling the world it’s not a Rolex. But if that’s the case, what’s the problem with San Martin? It also is clearly telling the world it’s not a Tudor based on the logo.
That Seiko Sub red text? That's actually trademark infringement, as bad as any fake, so if someone felt compelled to destroy a Pan fake, this dial should likewise be scrapped. ...and not purchased in the first place.
You're technically right. Even if it uses some SEI parts, that dial is obviously not true Seiko, so it's a frankenclone or something like that. To criticize people that buy clones and in the same video state he knowingly bought one and naively bought a second is doublespeak.
The only people that hates "homages" are those who couldn't really afford the original but bought it anyway and then they feel bad for spending all those thousands for a watch that's almost the same than a $200 Chinese copy 😂
When watchmakers can't recognize the original over a high quality replica at 1/10th (or less) of the price, who's really perpetrating the fraud here? The only thing that changes year over year with Rolex is the price, which goes up like clockwork because of the watch simps who think they are buying something special.
Here’s the thing about homage watches… The problem is not that they exist, it’s that a lot of them are so nice that it makes those that paid a premium for the real thing feel pissed that someone can pay $50-$600 for an homage or a super clone and get almost all the way there.
I think the most important thing is that You like the watch. No matter if its an original, homage ir even replica, if it makes you happy and you are being honest with yourself and others, thats all that matters
My rule for homage watches is simple are they homaging a discontinued model or the entry price is utterly unattainable, 15k upwards, as long as it isn’t a fake, go for it
There’s only 3 scenarios as to why people buy homage watches. 1. They’re either completely oblivious that it is a homage and just buy it because they like the way they look. 2. They can’t afford to buy the original. 3. They don’t want to spend the money on the original. Me personally, I really like SteelDive watches despite the fact that they’re clearly clones, although legal clones, of already existing watches of renown brands because I can’t afford the original. So, I can get the look and more or less the exact same features, sapphire crystal, lumed ceramic bezel insert, sunburst dial, applied indices and the same water resistance for literally less than 1% of the price of an original in the case of a submariner. What’s there not to like?
"What’s there not to like?" A lot. You have paid real money for an object with fake identity. An homage by definition cannot stand on its own two legs. It has no original thought put into it. Instead, it has taken someone else's design, ripped it out of its original context and tried to put it where it does not belong.
@fhujf Well, may that be as it is, but they're legal copies, and they cater to a completely different customer base. And if anything, they turn me on to the original, and if I'd ever hit a lottery jackpot, I'm definitely gonna get the originals. Not everyone has enough money to buy a 13000 dollar Submariner or save up for it within a reasonable time frame. I'm also not looking for originality in a watch. What matters to me is overall build quality, specs and aesthetics and I most definitely get that from SteelDive.
"Hard working"? You mean, when Rolex comes up with a new dial color after a year? Or like adding a disc for the date and calling it a big word like "complication"? BTW Rolex copies their own models. Some look very similar. So much for their ethics. And the first question is not about fake, but whether Rolex is justified in it's exorbitant prices. Because you get a good Swiss watch like Longines or Tissot or Tudor for a fraction of the price. By keeping their prices crazily high, gouging essentially, and in short supply with arrogant ADs, Rolex and others are in a way encouraging fakes. If a fake is 99% as good at $1K then they don't deserve 20 times more. If they play dirty, then why shouldn't others?
@@willstaier3385 Good question. The word "copy" means "same, similar, identical". It does not mean illegal / fake. So a company can indeed copy their own models and give it a different name. You know which two Rolex models I am talking about here :)
@@willstaier3385 anyone can copy any watch design. Pretty much. But despite the legality some snobs are simply too insecure to accept it and therefore make videos to tell poor ppl they are worthless.
The irony is that this topic has been done to death over the years , you could say this video is a one to one copy of anther video that someone did before you, you could think yeah but its my own take and in my own words , but this topic has been done so much that you could probably find one that says almost the exact same words as you and another that uses the exact same clips , I think watch design is kind of the same everything has been done and even if you design a watch with no influence from other watches someone will probably find one obscure watch from the 70's that looks just like the one you designed. Bottom line is and conclusion is homages are out there they are not illegal and you cant stop them and its pointless debating on if they are ok or not it achieves nothing other than making you look like a watch snob even if that's not where your coming from
Don’t make this type of video ever again… it’s a watch… I have a sub that stays in the box until wedding or birthday … I have a San Martin that I wear to the park…. With the kids… homages are so fun because watches are fun
Pure BS. It’s always the people with the means to buy almost anything they want to lecture the rest of us on topics like this. It took me 45 years of life to afford used Breitling’s and an Omega. I have some beautiful pieces acquired through years of hard work and saving, but now I buy cheaper watches and enjoy everything from my Watch Dives 50 Fathoms homage, to my Steinhart Ocean One Vintage, as well as a sterile Chinese quartz version of my Hamilton KFM 38. Ten years after acquiring my first Luxury brand pieces (used), I care about as much for these companies as they do for their customer base, which is pretty evident if you send a watch to their service department (I’m looking at you Panerai, Breitling, etc), and get it back in the same condition or worse. There’s no code of conduct for any watch collector community, save for those with the means to own whatever, whenever. Seems like maybe they aren’t square with their purchases and have to be some sort of voice of self proclaimed wisdom.
This is such a dishonest take. He's saying it's okay for him to buy hommages but it's not okay for other people to buy homages. And it's okay for him to do so because his rules are actually acceptable but other people's rules are not acceptable. I definitely won't give a damn next time I'm shopping for a Chinese homage.
Beg to differ on a large part of this video. Genta's AP design has been copied by many a watch makers, does it mean that they get the pass because they're not San Martin? You're not giving a fair comparo and are being tone deaf. I love how the community majorly disagrees with your views on homages. And you mostly wasted video footage mentioning fakes, we all, snobbish and non snobbish watch enthusiasts agree that fake watch makers are the scum of the earth. Just the homage part, I (along with all other people in comments) agree on "more power to San Martin"
No longer a watch snob. I don't care about homages because popular anything has been copied to death. Including the watch industry. They all do it. Period. Every brand has their own version of the AP Royal Oak. Or the Speedmaster. You already mentioned the Cartier Tank. Bravo to the Chinese brands for showcasing their skills and ability to copy popular icons. And keeping it affordable to the commoners. I will never buy a Rolex in my lifetime. But I don't mind getting a good and well executed homage for wrist fun. They aren't cheap junk anymore. The Japanese were once accused of the same, copying Swiss and German brands. Until they got beaten at their own game. Watch snobs are just being exclusive and preventing any more players to join the market. You think all those microbrands are not Chinese made?? Even most Swiss Made is actually Made in China. Watch snobs are kidding themselves. They want their luxury status symbols. A true watch lover and fan doesn't care. I am now enjoying the value and wrist fun of owning and collecting outstanding Chinese made watches. Yes, I've own numerous Swiss watches in the past, until they were stolen. Restoring that collection is a financial impossibility. Do I condemn myself to never buy another watch because they aren't Swiss? No. BTW even Seikos are now priced out of reach of most folks.
In all my 70 years of walking this earth I have never, yes never, not even once, had someone comment on the watch I have been wearing. Fact, 99.99999999% of the population only recognise a watch by the name stamped on the dial. Homages, whatever the era, with the makers name or emblem on the dial are ok by me. There will always be those poor unfortunate emotionally insecure souls who will buy fake goods. Now where did I leave my Hermes 2011 birkin Himalayan.
I honestly couldn't care less about 'brand heritage', if i like the style/design and the quality is there, then I'll buy it. Homage watches are there to please ALL budgets and if it brings you pleasure - then that's ALL that matters.
I really want to agree with Max, but in the end he's just trying to add another layer of "gate keeping" to an industry/hobby that already does too much of it (unjustified retail prices, fake scarcity, ADs who play favorites, etc.). He makes the kind of argument that you can only make when you have enough money to get pretty much any watch you want. Honestly, I was with him for about half, maybe even 2/3s of the video, but then the "you should just work harder/longer" to get the real thing business started and I was out. I work very hard for my money and this is a HOBBY for me, I have fun with it, I don't run a TH-cam channel/watch app/get free watches from manufacturers, etc., so if I can get a good watch that I find aesthetically pleasing for a price I can afford...sold.
Absolutely agreed with you on this. I have no issue with people who prefer to support microbrands for their originality. But saying "you should work harder/longer" to get the real thing is an absolute ass of a snob. I'm sure all the big brands are aware of all these homage watch brands but l've yet to learn of any of them making a big fuss over it. I know the big brands may not be able to sue these homage watch brands, but they can at least condemn them publicly. But no one is doing it. And if they are not doing it, why should those who have no business in it be the nosey ones to do it?
I have some pagani design and San Martin watches, generally, my circle doesn’t do watches, and most everyone I know doesn’t wear one, unless it’s an Apple Watch, me wearing my PD1701 v3 speedmaster homage isn’t me trying to look rich, I just like the design, but not ten grands worth. The only thing with that I agree with, is that if you are wearing a fake submariner and it says Rolex, you are defrauding Rolex and the people you are trying to impress.
Let's keep in mind that this is the same guy who commissioned the manufacture of some extra long NATO straps, acted like he invented something, called it the "zero pass", and proceeded to charge people $35 for the privilege of wearing the world's bulkiest NATO. I mean, Max seems like a nice person, but when it comes to watches, he comes across pretty toolish.
@@markfoo9179 so true. Big brands don’t whine about it because their market doesn’t buy homages and for TH-cam creators, homages don’t, “butter their bread”, so to speak.
Can you imagine if Levi Strauss took the “genuine blue jeans” position. “These other pants companies are ruining the asthetic of our original design!” No one wears wrangler or dickies jeans and thinks “I’m such a fraud!”
Plagiarizing? Since when is Rolex using a Mechaquartz like Pagani Design? ANY HOMAGE is perfectly acceptable. An homage copying the name of another brand is not plagiarizing and not an homage. It's counterfeiting. Why did I waste my time watching this?
The improvement in technology and with the heritage of design, what was once an expensively made piece can now be done affordably by competitor brands and this will only be more pronounced in the future. Historically collaboration between brands has been one of the features of the watch industry too, so even they have been open to sharing ideas and designs going back to the start of the industry. Direct copies are not cool but homages are a legitimate way to explore design variables I think
Nothing wrong with Homages. I use them to see if I like or fit a watch before buying it like the Tactical frog FXDs etc. Same deal with all the Submariner variants too. Ironically San Martin produces watches that Tudor should make before Tudor actually does i.e BB58 GMT and Pelegos 39mm GMT titanium.......
I think I agree with all your points. I'll add mine which may or may not be identical to yours. - There's an homage watch for almost anyone. It could happen at any point in the watch collecting journey. At the beginning, middle, even later some are worth exploring and have. - Homage watches is a very broad category, don't make blanket statements that say a fake is the same as an homage, copy or replica. There are important differences. - Don't buy fakes as they are just self-demeaning watch purchases. They do a disservice to yourself and the industry. If you want a near identical 1:1 watch design "copy", that's fine, at least advertise the fact it's not "the original" and have proper branding to reflect that. - One technical exception to having a brand/logo on a watch that is not truly an OEM option... Watch mods like with Seiko's and Casio's, for example. I personally like to represent what may be considered an "OEM+ look".. something that looks like it could have come from the factory as such. However , if someone were to ask me about my modded watch, I'd at least explain that it is such and not a factory option. I take it like modding cars. I'll lower it, swap out for different rims/tires, modify some body part(s), etc.. some like to de-badge their cars, too. But, me, I would still proudly display what the original make of the car with its logo even though aesthetically it may be different from the original, be it a radical or subtle change. At its heart/core, it's still that car which I like and chose to buy and make bespoke to my tastes. Does modding a car to make it different, maybe even look like a completely different or other car make it not a BMW, Honda, VW, or whatever? I don't think so. Same applies to restomods, IMHO.
The Chinese makers have really upped their game in the last few years, so getting some decent quality for $50 - $200 USD is pretty hard to resist. In fact, it's almost TOO easy, resulting in a pretty sizeable collection. The most expensive watch I currently own is a Glycine Combat 7, which at the time was less than $300. I hardly ever wear it. Instead, I typically choose one of my AliExpress watches for daily wear, and I have several, including Pagani, Steeldive, and Merkur. I've considered buying a luxury watch many times, but it always comes down to justifying the price. And if I hardly ever wear the only Swiss auto that I own, how much more would I wear something that costs 5 to 10 times as much?
Stop it! Anything is better than the Chinese watches. Most of my watches came from pawn shops or antique/resale shops. Desirable, vintage, working watches that I rarely pay more than $100 for. I especially like seikos from the 70s and 80s. Including quartz. My watches even gain value. Yes, it's hard to beat your aliexpress watches for value. They're stolen designs made by slaves. It's hard to compete with that. You're participating in something very bad for the hobby and industry.
@oldmanwood5011 Nobody is upset, buddy. You want to keep contributing to overseas manufacturing, slave labor, copyright theft----you go right on ahead, wear your fake watches. Most won't notice. You'll only look like a joke to those who do care and notice.
Homage watches will be much bigger going forward with Gen Z. The watch industry isn't going to survive against the Apple Watch if you're expected to shell out $3k for a Tudor Black Bay or $7k for a Speedmaster or $10k and higher for Rolex. All of these are mass produced watches with frankly unremarkable movements. 25 years ago these watches were attainable with a couple weeks or couple months salary. There has been MASSIVE price inflation for these watches and no substantial improvements to justify such a steep profit margins. Rolex is by far the biggest perpetrator in this. It's encouraged all the less expensive brands to do the same to the point where what used to get you a second hand Rolex Explorer can't even get you a new Tudor Black Bay. Frankly I think this is why we saw such a crazy worldwide reaction to the MoonSwatch. Gen Z is broke. They're having to save up triple to buy a house. Ain't nobody got time for Swiss brands tripling prices. The homage is the perfectly adequate watch to hold you over until your more pressing adult obligations are easier to manage. And the whole concept of plunking down $7k on a watch when you're still in your 20s and 30s is investment portfolio suicide. For example I got rid of my Submariner for Apple stock 2 years before the iPhone came out. $5k of that stock is now worth 7 million dollars. That Rolex you can probably get a cool $8k for. 😅 Rule #1 of Charlie Munger(RIP) to young people: "bank your first $100k to invest in an index fund as quickly as possible." Once you achieved that go buy your expensive social media Flex gear.
Is it alright to drink Pepsi instead of Coke? Or to wear a DIESEL jeans instead of a Levi's jeans? Yes, it is as simple as that... There are two versions of the "real" value of a watch, the value on the market (defined by demand and supply, I.e. what you're paying for luxury products) and the value defined by production and distribution costs (what you're paying for commodities). High end Rolex fakes you can have for 600 $ and their producers are still making a lot of money on them. What we love about watches is mainly their design and design is a one time cost. Homages are democratizing good design, they will reduce the amount of visual pollution. The watch industries killer is not the Submariner homage by San Martin, it's the Apple watch!
What a great comment & I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with it - i have loads of heavy hitter brands like Rolex, Cartier and Omega in my collection but I also love certain ones from Pagani & Ixdao - and the reason is simple - i just dont believe that certain watches lets say from Rolex or Patek however good they are in terms of design deserve to be priced at 100000 or 200000 dollars - Even if i had that kind of money i wudnt buy the ice blue platinum daytona with brown bezel at 90000 coz as much as i love the design its the nuisance value thats driving that price - so if i get a great quality homage of thst watch by Pagani and in 150 dollars i love the look and feel of it i dont really care who thinks this is some sort of a moral crime against "real designers who spent hours for the real thing" - they got paid for it - why sould i overpay for it? And no im not pretending to wear that Rolex if it clearly says Pagani on my dial - that is still an homage - i dont like the fact thst if a big brand does an homage of something its ok and if a smaller brand does it suddenly its about "taking designers hard work away" etc
I agree with much of what you're saying, but I say the watch industry's killer is rolux, grifters who overcharge whilst turning customers into simps. Apple watch people have little to do with us trad watch nutters and our kinks.
Keep in mind that the majority of the WORLD will not earn enough to buy ANY of the “real deal” watches in their lifetimes. If you want the Rolex look for $200 then DO IT. If it makes you feel good, then that’s the only thing that matters. If someone with a Rolex calls you out, then he’s just a snob and we all know money can’t buy class anyway.
Never liked homage watches. There are so many fresh designs at every price point that homage watches are very irrelevant for me. If i want something more expensive i'll rather save up and get the original.
Entertaining video but seriously, who gives a f*** beside a bunch of watch enthusiasts who you would almost never meet in real life? Wear what you want.
Homage watches as _either_ harmless or toxic is a false dichotomy of extremes. Shortly thereafter, you say that you put homage watches into three tiers, with the second tier being somewhere in the middle of both extremes. You need to better formulate what you say and refine your thoughts more. Reread what you write and weed out contradictions. ------------------ 5:43 the enormous cost factor is practically the primary reason and attraction of buying homage watches that are as close to the originals without being a replica (i.e. legal and ethical). I mean, I argue that that's the _entire_ point. You could argue that it's a means to make others think that you have the real deal as a mere status symbol, but even then that's about money (otherwise you'd have bought the real thing), or you would have purchased a replica instead because it would do a better job at duping people while costing fractions. The other major arguments are that you could wear it carefree without worrying about say, desk diving it as much, and of scarcity. Many may still baby the watch because even homages may be a significant cost to them. But note that even when it comes to not having to worry about damaging the watch or it being scarce (as in the vintage watch example you mention), it still has to do with cost--replacement, repair, etc. The overarching issue with how you present this part of the video segment is that you mention the cost factor as merely one point within your three tier explanation, as opposed to cost being _the_ defining point. That is, you went out to explain whether homage watches were harmless or toxic, divided the content into different types of homage watches, and only mentioned the cost factor as if it were not the major issue. Overall, homages are the next best thing for people who can't shell out thousands of dollars on a Rolex or other watch without it being illegal. The originals look great, but I'm not going into debt or lose a substantial amount of savings on a luxury good.
I think there needs to be a clear distinction between a “clone” and a “homage”. E.g. a Paganini Speedy isn’t a homage it’s a clone with Pagani’s label on it 😂
There’s this vibe that is likely unintentionally communicated from videos like this. And it is the feeling that if you’re gonna get into this hobby, then follow the unspoken rules. Only originals are worth your hard earned money. And if you’re not willing to save up and wait till you can get one, anything things else is frowned upon. But that doesn’t connect with those who are never going to be able to afford that original with all the heritage and the brand cache they bring. Neither does it speak to those who perhaps can but who are decidedly unwilling to drop that type of scratch on wrist adornments. Nothing against Max and others who care about the industry. But as a consumer I am mostly (if not entirely)concerned about getting the watch I want on wrist at the most affordable price. Unless you’re telling me that homages, replicas and clones are illegal, I have no problem wearing them. But don’t judge me; I’m still growing in the hobby. Maybe a year or two from now I’ll feel different.
Own Omega and Panerai but my guilty pleasure is my Pagani Design Bluesy and Hulk. I’ll wear them around the house and get a lot of enjoyment out of them. Yes, they are blatant copies… but unlike replicas, they still have their logo on the dial. Still prefer to wear my genuine stuff outside the door.
I recently discussed this topic with another watch collector during my live stream. I feel the issue isn’t so much with homage watches being a part of the community for collectors to enjoy, even when they are one-for-one copies, but rather in how we label them. A one-for-one copy should be called a clone-or “clomage” at best. That said, I completely respect collectors who enjoy a clomage if it brings them joy, and I’ve indulged in it myself. However, as I mature as a collector, I find that a true homage holds more appeal for my personal collection. Great video Max! Cheers, and Happy New Year my friend! 🎉
You’re confusing straight up counterfeit watches. Meaning those that say they are the real thing and an actual homage. Most people that live watches, can’t put a Patek or Rolex on their grail list. The price is just ridiculous. So other options are there and if that works for them, perfect. My San Martin doesn’t say Rolex…additionally, my fav watch is a Steinhart OVM that homages a vintage Rolex military watch. Your logic allows for the Steinhart but not the San Martin. I’ll just buy what I like and not give a crap what others think.
Your position on tier 2 homages comes off as snobbish, elitist and hypocritical. You own a Seiko red Sub with trademark infringement text on the dial. Happy New Year and let's not judge other people's choices in wrist jewelry, ok?
I think watch nerds are just mad that Chinese brands figured out you can achieve 95% of a "luxury" watch for literally a fraction of the price. Guess what: spending $10k on a STEEL WATCH that does something your phoen does, and better might add, is a terrible "investment". Miss us with the snobbery
The dude that started Maen has clearly stated that the Manhattan 37 is hugely influenced by his love for the Vacheron. He may have said something along the lines of making his own version of it. It might not be on the product page but he hasnt made it a secret either.
I liked the “It’s fine for me to create homage watches but it is not okay for YOU to buy them” argument. It’s an ingenious way to resolve cognitive dissonance and maintain the air of superiority that permeates this video.
it‘s funny, i‘m a watch enthusiast for 5 years now, and never asked me anyone about my watch i‘m wearing. so nobody cares what you wear. NOBODY. when you wanna wear a worthless watch, it‘s your problem. not everybody can afford so much money. and almost everybody i know has no idea what a rolex daytona is nor what a hommage watch should be. somehow i think you‘re kinda snob.
Has the Rolex organization homaging itself for decades and decades? Imagine if the original designer of the Explorer had a child who went to Rolex and homaged the father’s design. Then that adult child had a child, and repeated the homage cycle again.
Another reason why some vintage homages are ok is because you can't really buy the original reference new or almost new anymore. To some people, it matters to them that the watch started its life with them and not another person. Vintage homages can also have better movements. Not always but possible.
Guilty as charged, I bought a TIMEX Legacy Tonneau chronograph. I have no ideas what ‘genuine’ Swiss watch this is based on, but it’s a vintage styled stunner. Then there’s the Seiko Mod Santos, at 2% of the price of a Cartier. I’ll never afford a Cartier, so I’ll never deny Cartier a sale.
There are patents and laws that should take care of that topic. It's just annoying that nobody should be 'ethically' allowed to buy an submariner hommage or even clone. It's not technology in that regard, it's just a case form. Many big swiss brands are bringing exact clones aka homages to rolex watches (alpina, chronos, etc.) and nobody should give any fs about it imo
Why do you care? And why do you feel need to project your insecurities onto others? Because this is simply about your own insecurities - ppl who buy homage watches tend to not have the means to purchase watches such as you can comfortably afford - so why do you have an opinion that looks down on such ppl and their purchases? Snobbery?
I’ve figured it out now. This video is purposefully divisive. To drive some views to your channel. Should have seen this before. And certainly in keeping with you seemingly being an out of touch self-centred snob.
In my own experience, people are okay with a cheap homage. Then, its a "great deal" and a "genius design". But once you get to the more expensive ones, people call it a rip off, even though its still often a tenth of the price of the "real" one.
The problem I get into with this discussion....is a $1,500 microbrand homage really six times better than a $250 San Martin homage? Most times, IMO, no. Neither IMO, compare to the luxury original given several factors.
Tier 2 are not "homage" watches. They're just rip offs. That's fine by me, but let's not pretend that they are somehow paying homage to an earlier design. They're just copying it.
Sorry, but no one who knows watches thinks that the Zenith is a Daytona homage.
Exactly.
Touché... It's the other way around. That El Primero movement may have been changed by Rolex but one cannot deny that the movement decides how the watch should look. 😁
Wasn't that his point?
Came here to say this
Me too.
Wanted to say: the daytona is an homage to Zenith. Not the other way around.
Just remember that 99.9% of people don't know what you have on your wrist and don't care...
Exactly, and most of them are wearing an Apple watch of a knock off of it.
I have a Tudor BB58 and other $1k+ watches and have never gotten a compliment or comment. 2 people have complimented my watches and they were a pagani and Vostok both under $100. Buy what you like because no one else will care
@@justinmorris2077The greatest advice.
@@chaoseus i don't think that is what he is saying at all, i think what he is saying is most people don't know anything, he got more compliment from wearing cheap watches than a swiss. he is not saying he wears tudor to get compliments. i do the same thing i wear my tudor, longines, and omega when i feel like it, i also wear my seiko, citizen, timex, and orient just as much, if i was fishing for compliments i would never wear them.
Hardy an excuse to copy or steal
San Martin homages are not ok, yet your Seiko homage is ok because as you said, you are not willing to pay 30,000 for the real deal?!?! this video is just weird. Every point contradicts the previous one.
Yeah some parts didn't go down well with me either, if you are not willing to pay 30,000 for the real vintage deal, it's ok to go copy-homage? How about not willing to pay 30,000 for the real modern daytona deal and go copy-homage instead, or even full replicas? Btw having the Seiko branding on a watch that is not a real Seiko is as close to a replica as it can be as well... You can definitely get full original parts vintage watches, you just need loads of money. My personal view is that, buy what you feel you are happy with that you can afford, be it gen, homage, or even replica.
Until one's standards for homages is absolute (from watches, clothes, cars, houses, etc), any opinion will contradict itself because there's no baseline standard the one making the opinion is operating from.
There is value in hearing opinions from the collective hive mind, but ultimately the only thing that matter is if it's legal and whether or not you're enjoying it.
I agree with you. What about Tudor hommage. Are they ok because they are expensive? at the end, it is just the status of the brand...
The sad part is I'd rather take my chances with a San Martin over a Seiko these days, their quality control has gone downhill and San Martin has picked up dramatically in quality and bang for buck. Sometimes my partner and I play "How many misaligned Seiko's are in this store?"
@@FlauspidSyalon Yea I have the exact same sentiments. You can't ever justify homages cuz there will always be a contradiction to your justification. Just get what floats your boat, and remember that people with differing opinions are everywhere. It's up to you whether you wanna care about them or not
Your justification for vintages homages works just the same for modern homages. You’re not paying $35k for a red sub? Well, people buying San Martins aren’t paying $12k for a modern sub either. Like you say, the name on the dial says it’s not a Rolex, so it’s not a Rolex.
Max - I found the Zenith vs Daytona comparison a bit ironic. Recall that Zenith made the movements for the early Daytonas. So which one is the real homage?
If I'm not mistaken, rolex did the general design of the Daytona before the chronomaster as we know it? So i think it goes either way
Edit: I'm not disagreeing, the mvt came first from zenith, but homages are all about looks
i dont get the comparison at all tbh. white dial, black ceramic bezel, tri-compax. i dont think anyone outside of the watch hobby would look at those watches side by side and have any difficulty distinguishing the two apart. when you try to take ownership of colors, you've kind of lost the plot, especially when those colors are.... black and white...
i find it equally ridiculous that no one can use a red and blue gmt bezel without it being called a gmt master homage.
@@Cameron_Drummer Zenit have 0 simularty to deytona when we speaking about how watch looks like
@bosco1603 all Zenith did really was add a ceramic bezel to their case. It would be like calling a car desogn a rip-off because manufacturers added a spoiler or an open grill
36,000 vph
Old Chinese Proverb: "Never wear your Rolex to Wal-Mart, people will know it's a fake." 🤣
Good, so now i can wear my Rolex everywhere and won’t be mugged 😎
@@kleanovodust-bin69 Unfortunately wearing a rolux is an 'I'm a simp, who's easy to grift, so please feel free to rob me again, because I clearly enjoy it' statement piece. 😇
@@kleanovodust-bin69 Other Chinese proverb. "No everywhere. " 😁
Wear it when shopping on Amazon.
But Best way to not get robbed for a real one
My personal view is that only watch snobs would say such things . Not every one could afford watches so let them enjoy things within their means. If you care much about such matters, work hard and join the watch company’s legal department to deal with such matters professionally.
At the end of the day , who are we to judge someone who earns little but love watches or the design of ap/pp/rolex? I thought watch community is supposed to be nice and supportive ? By the way, it is not that they are lesser than you, they are just not in the right country as you are to be able to afford watches as hobby.
No hate , just speaking from my observation from traveling the world and meeting people who love watches
I was literally about to type exactly what you said. I have not always been fortunate to enjoy the collection I currently have, and didn't think twice about buying a homage to scratch the itch. You cannot say people should not be able to enjoy a Rolex Submariner if they can't afford it - Get a homage so you can get somewhat of a taste. We are certainly not to judge. To do so brings a certain snob behaviour into a hobby I love.
>the watch community being nice & supportive
Ah, maybe at the entry/mass consumer level, but the second you start tying your personal sense of self worth with your net worth, & then displaying that worth with a Submariner or w/e, someone else having just as nice a time with a knock off that cost a fraction of what you paid is a personal attack to that kind of insecure person.
Further, 99.9% of the public have no idea what you’re wearing, nor care. So wear what brings you personal satisfaction.
@@Pianoman999 💯
If I can't afford an original design, then I won't buy that design, in original or homage form. I'd rather have a cheap original design Casio, rather than a wannabe watch.
I tried so hard to be first!
And gosh darn it scuffed Jenni Elle you did it
That's what she said
Try harder Britt 💩
Happy new year Britt 😊
@@thegorn😂
Dude... I typically love your content and I genuinely believe that you mean no offense with your takes in this video, but I have to tell you that this comes across as a little tone deaf. I recently quit my sales career in the UK to work in the public sector for work life balance and stress related reasons. Previously I never considered it a big deal to drop £2k-£5k on a watch every quarter when I got a bonus. In my new role I attended a meeting in my Rolex Explorer, nothing out of the ordinary in my last job, and I could feel the judgement coming from one of my senior colleagues who was wearing a £300 Japanese watch. I now earn just under half of my previous take home pay and realise that actually, a £200 watch is now a considered purchase. It's not like I wouldn't like to add a white dial speedy, or a GS Shunbun to my already decent collection, but I'd now have to save 3-4 years for a watch of that cost. This is something I'd never really thought about before (% of disposable income after tax). I'm happy in my new job, but dude, as a doctor you can't be telling people that they can't purchase homage watches, and if they can't afford to buy an original £6k+ watch, they should only be allowed to buy micro brands. Could you restrict yourself to only one watch purchase every 3+ years? Or worse, feel okay about being told by someone who can afford to buy the original watch you like that you can only buy watches that don't look the same, just because you are too poor to buy the original? C'mon now, you're unintentionally gatekeeping at best and coming across as a snob at worst. It's up to the individual to decide on how they spend their paycheck.
Preach 💯
@@carlvoxvires great post. It will go in one ear and out the other though. As is the way with snobs.
Thank you sir🙏I will add some of these points to my own similar conversations I get into all the time...homage the comment if you will....⌚️✌️
This video comes across a bit like a joke just waiting for the punchline; "In this economy?!"
With all due respect he's not saying what you can't buy or should buy.
I am totally fine with homages in terms of San Martin, Seiko mods, etc. But I'll never support fake/counterfeit.
My replica's get more wrist time than my gens. Simply because I love their designs and dials. I couldn't care less what brand they pretend to be. Nobody notices or cares what watch you are wearing anyway. But I just love the designs and aren't willing to pay tens of thousands for something I can get for $100.
Exactly
This is the correct answer.
@Jeffelangelo
I THINK san martin would fall into the fake/counterfeit category.
I try to avoid chinese where i can.
Dude you’re a neurosurgeon. You can afford damn near anything. Of course you’re gonna say “does Timex really need a Speedy homage”
5:49 Those "Seiko Mods" are nothing more than counterfeit. Seiko has zero to do with that watch. It's a fake Rolex with a fake Seiko dial.
Do I feel bad for the big Swiss luxury brands like Rolex, AP, Patek, Zenith, Omega? Hell no!
I personally think that owning, say, a nicely crafted San Martin homage of a Tudor or Rolex, makes one more likely to purchase the real McCoy - not less. It’s a net benefit to the Swiss watch industry because it gives them more attention. After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I'm wearing a Pagani Design speedy rn and I love it. I only make $50k/yr and can't afford the real one. Yet.
You make 50k a year and haven’t bought a real Speedmaster 😂
Me and the wife do really well and the majority of my watches are under $300. I have plenty of paganis and wear them all the time
@jmemphisTX so 50k a year will be what, 35k after taxes? That's barely rent money. A speedy reduced would be like a months take home pay. The real world sucks.
But buying that watch made you a part of the watch community, which in my view is a great thing.
I think no matter how much money one makes, there's always the option of buying something original that is within reach. A similar argument would sound a bit like this: I don't have enough time to write an A grade paper, I will plagiarize. I think a B, original paper would be better. A Speedtimer, no matter how good or significant it is, does not define a person. No watch does. The same goes for how much one makes or what one does for a living.
Why is a vintage homage ok because you don’t want to spend $30k or they aren’t readily available but a homage explorer isn’t good? I can’t go to Rolex and buy an explorer today (I’ve tried…went omega instead).
I've done the same thing. I've been on the "waiting list" for three years for an Explorer I or white dial Explorer II. In that time. In that time I've bought a Tag Heuer Monaco, an Omega Seamaster Planet Ocean and said F- it on the Rolex and used that money to buy a Mustang instead. If the AD ever calls me I will tell them I gave up on playing their game.
This.
Unless you're sitting down right next to someone, odds are they can't tell what you're wearing, and 99% of the time, they won't care. The only person that does? You. Wear what you want and what makes you happy. The only other person that may care is a watch snob, but do you really care about what they think?
Some of us watch lovers do not have the disposable income to buy expensive watches. Your argument walks really closely to a 'let them eat cake' kind of blindspot. Is a Toyota a "homage" of Mercedes? They are similar products that perform similar roles but at different price points for differing budgets. There is room in the market for less wealthy people to have the opportunity to own a less expensive product.
On a budget, I suggest looking at microbrands with their own design language. But do you...
I agree with both of you. If someone is set on a Rolex that they may never afford, I suggest the homage instead of fakes. Personally I am more like Max and seek more original designs
On paper, i agree with you. I live in a country with generally low income but i love Cartier Tank’s design.
I bought a Fauxtier Tank before there were Sanda Tank, and to be honest Seiko Tanks are also out of my budget. And i do have a Casio “Tank” like the AQ-230.
But to be honest, nowdays i don’t really wear the Fauxtier Tank anymore, and seek more original designs. And ironically, my AQ-230 got more wrist time than my Fauxtier Tank.
@@WatchCrunchOfficial I suggest you let ppl buy what they want without projecting your ‘I’m rich and can afford the real thing’ onto them for literally no good reason other than to make poor ppl feel bad. But you do you.
You're missing the point. You wouldn't buy a Toyota and then put a Mercedes black series body kit on it to try and convince people you own a c63 black series would you? So why buy a copy of a luxury watch? It's douchey and you can get a lot more genuine respect from wearing a decent Seiko, citizen, Tissot, Hamilton or any number of micro brands.
Most people don't care what you're wearing anyway but if you're caught with a fake you either look like a poser or like someone who has been duped into buying a fake watch and therefore can't know much about the hobby. Either way, you lose.
This hobby should be fun.
This is a bad take. Watch Crunch is suppose to be a fun community where folks can share their love of watches regardless of brand, clomage, homage, etc. When you add this level of snobbery, it becomes like every other watch community. The reality is people rarely notices what you wear. Wear it because you enjoy it not because you care what someone else thinks.
San Martin would be good enough for me. The problem is that they don't seem to be interested in creating a decent logo. I've already owned a couple of their watches. But since the logo is ugly they rarely found the way to my wrist. So for me at the moment it's Clean Factory.
Well, in a realistic perspective, the majority of people will never have the capability to have the disposable income to buy a genuine Rolex, Patek, AP, Omega etc. Ultimately, homage brands are there to give a person the feeling of owning a thing that looks like a watch that they can/will never buy, and people who support these homage companies does not deserve the hate because people can buy what they want to buy, and wear what they want to wear since they paid using their own hard-earned money.
Man...Yes...this guy gets it.
@@YKYuji Agree 100%. Watch snobs are snobbish and just can't stand it when someone actually gets pleasure from something that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They can take all the seats as far as I'm concerned.
I do not agree. If you cannot afford a Bentley, would you buy a 10 year old Toyota Corolla masquerading as a Bentley ?
@jeanlefranc3817 Who said homage watches are 10 year old Corollas? Homage watches are pretty much well built, with respectable specs as well. Plus, the buyer is well aware of what they are buying, as these homage watches are pretty clear in branding their logo and company name in the dials. Toyota Corollas are pretty nice and durable too! 🤔
Exactly. I can never understand the idea that a Rolex homage is somehow hurting Rolex. First of all, Rolex is fine, no one should be worried about them. And second, what is even the argument? It's not like they're poaching a Rolex customer! If someone can't/won't buy a $10,000 watch, there's very little chance that will change. They were never going to be a Rolex customer, so Rolex loses nothing. If anything they benefit because the desire for homages just validates the special status of the "real thing". There's no cross pollination between Rolex customers and those who can't/won't buy one. It's not anyone who would buy a $200 homage is on the fence and they're just waiting for a 1% price drop from Rolex.
Don't let anyone tell you this isn't simple, old fashioned snobbery and that it's not all about money and status. These people aren't getting up in arms about SKMEI ripping off Casio, ffs...
If you bought a GMT Master because you love the design, or because the quality of finishing and movement is worth it to you, than someone wearing a similar but cheaper watch wouldn't bother you at all. If you bought a GMT Master as a status symbol that's when you get mad at an homage because someone is dilluting your silly flex and making it feel less special. Such an entitled attitude.
I (and many other ordinary people) can't afford a $10,000+ watch. A homage is a legal way to experience most of the style of a certain watch, but pay what is affordable (for me, under $300, but I have good homage watches as cheap as $60)!
For most of the population in the world what he calls tier 2 homages is as close as we can get to some of the watches we love but could never afford. I am not saying they will replace the original but defenitly give a good taste of what they may feel like and you don't have to mortgage your house to own one
Well said! I am lucky to be able to afford expensive watches but refuse to get swindled, spécialement by nouveau riche pieces of 💩 that make watches that cost very little to make, but are sold at exorbitantly inflated prices but that an *artificially inflated, btw,* bunch of school-girl-like cheerleaders happily leave their dignity at "their" AD's door, just for the "opportunity" to grovel and beg for their money to be taken away!😅😅😅
Screw the watch snobs. Wear whatever you want.
You are supposed to now feel bad for being poor. He is rich so therefore better than you in all ways. Only he can wear certain designs that originated with luxury watchmakers. You can only have watches that look cheap. Sorry.
I doubt he thinks this way in reality. This video is about generating views. I think that actually makes him worse than the above. You enjoy your or re extra legal watches mate and never let anyone put you down or make you feel less than them. You have more integrity than this TH-camr could ever dream of having.
I love the top tier homages. They make 90% if the watch they're inspired by at 1/50 of the price. Show's how much the big companies are gouging their customers.
I haven't yet handled the Tudor Ranger but I've watched some videos comparing it to various clones, and from everything I've seen my San Martin is easily as crisply finished. The ethical question of homages aside, if you typically aren't focused on the movement inside then there's only aesthetics to consider; I'm drowning in amazing (often original) options from dozens of indies and micros before even needing to *think* about breaking the $1K mark.
@pktsqr I bought a Cronos BB38 to see if I loved the style & went in to buy the real deal when I did love the style. Left without it though totally no better that the Cronos finishing wise (I mean it was a wee bit better) but it was also 50x the price. The Cronos also runs about +2s per day...
Message to the watch industry. Bring the price of your watches down to 'affordable' levels and then homages disappear like scotch mist. The watch industry collaborates in keeping prices artificially high by limiting supply and accessibility. Fair enough. That's their right. Mine is to say 'To hell with you. I'll buy a quality homage instead and a new car with the change.' PS I couldn't care less about what other people think of the watch I'm wearing. I enjoy it. That's all that counts.
Supply & demand baby, leave space in the market & a competitor will under cut ya
💯
Exactly 💯
I own Omega, Breitling, Rolex, Tag, Hamilton, Baume, Timex, Casio, San Martin, Ipose, Cronos, etc. (you get my point). And, if I removed the logos from all of my watches, I would be hard pressed to justify the higher prices of most of the "expensive " vs. the "inexpensive " ones. They all tell time, and I don't need atomic clock precision to live my life. The watch rabbit hole is just that, a hole. Or "money pit", if you prefer?
I couldn't agree with you more.
The Chinese watches you listed all about the same quality?
Now this is someone who truly loves watches and isn't just after a status symbol!
How are you ok with Seiko mods but not with the “logo swap” homages? 🙄
If a dial is not made by Seiko, it should not be branded as such.
Alot of people mod Seikos because entry level are few hundred dollars and mod them to express they're own unique design language. That's different to a Seiko mod replicating another watch model with just a change in the logo.
There are also a lot of people in the modded seiko community that customize their watches to look really close to other more expensive watches.
@@tuberaider If changing the wheels and arches of a car doesn’t mean removing the badge, why should modding a watch dial mean stripping the logo? Some enthusiasts can argue its built on the original maker’s foundation
He's hypocritical. He "approves" of some homages but not others. That's not how it works. Almost all watches are derivative in some way. Wear what you want and move on.
The Timex is more category 1 with their GMT - so many design details are completely different from the BB Pro.
I also wonder if they possibly had that on the drawing board before the BB Pro came out. And only so many color combos (at least that don’t suck).
I don’t care what anyone thinks. Chinese homages totally scratched my itch for the Swiss originals and I only focus on interesting indies/micros. I know a guy with a nice seamaster and I like to show him my chomegas.
Lol after being a watch enthusiast for over a decade owning omega Rolex Cartier and tons of homage Ali brands Ive realized this. Watches aren’t that serious and even a Patek looks like any other watch even in person. Yea I said it. TH-camrs and social media hype up watches making them seem more important than they are.
Totally agree. Some people attach too much of their identity to the watch they wear. Others just see it as a fun hobby, and that’s the way it should be
Wear what u love, not someone expectations
The analogies using “if I were a few drinks in I’d wear” and comparing a watch with multiple design cues to half one woman, half another came off as a little tasteless.
The "disrespectful to hardworking watch designers" is pretty ridiculous. They are company designs, and most are in the public domain - fair game to copy. Nothing illegal or unethical about it.
Agreed. Most of the designers of these watches are long dead. Plus it suggests making the watch to a high standard is a piece of piss. Design is the easier empathy of the process - the bit anyone can do (hence TH-camrs do it!). Manufacturing is the true skill.
@@drdesign6886then there’s manufacturing vs craftsmanship
The watch snobs cry about their perceived status, they can't understand popular culture. Should Ralph Lauren stop making polo shirts invented by Lacoste? Should only Levi's be allowed to make jeans?
Agree 100% on the AliExpress copies. Soooo many watch TH-camrs call them homages. The only thing those manufacturers are paying respect to or honouring is the money derived from their lazy rip-offs. They in no way, shape or form give you the ‘experience’ of the real thing.
Generally I agree with you. I also like the idea of putting them in ‘tiers’ - very deserving!
I struggle with Tier 2 the most though - I own several in this category and thoroughly enjoy them. I’ve taken them on a lot of adventures because if they break or get stolen - oh well, it was cheap! Even if I felt compelled to buy the more expensive original of this category, I probably would rarely wear them because of how much they cost; ultimately taking away from the relationship I have with those watches. As others have mentioned as well, many will never be able to reasonably afford a $10-15k watch - who are we to rain on their parade if they enjoy the wearing experience of a San Martin, etc.?
The other part I struggle with in Tier 2 - it’s wildly and inconsistently subjective. As you’ve alluded to in this video: a vintage homage is acceptable when it has Seiko written on it and not Rolex, because it’s clearly telling the world it’s not a Rolex. But if that’s the case, what’s the problem with San Martin? It also is clearly telling the world it’s not a Tudor based on the logo.
That Seiko Sub red text? That's actually trademark infringement, as bad as any fake, so if someone felt compelled to destroy a Pan fake, this dial should likewise be scrapped. ...and not purchased in the first place.
You're technically right. Even if it uses some SEI parts, that dial is obviously not true Seiko, so it's a frankenclone or something like that.
To criticize people that buy clones and in the same video state he knowingly bought one and naively bought a second is doublespeak.
This isn't even a Seiko. Someone has put the Seiko logo on this dial and is calling it a Seiko Submariner.
The only people that hates "homages" are those who couldn't really afford the original but bought it anyway and then they feel bad for spending all those thousands for a watch that's almost the same than a $200 Chinese copy 😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣
When watchmakers can't recognize the original over a high quality replica at 1/10th (or less) of the price, who's really perpetrating the fraud here? The only thing that changes year over year with Rolex is the price, which goes up like clockwork because of the watch simps who think they are buying something special.
And here ladies and gentlemen I present to you a "reptimer".
🎯
Technically those replicating the watches are still being fraudulent lol
@@griff5043 I have real, I have reps. They feel the same on the wrist and usually the reps keep better time! 🤣🤣🤣
Here’s the thing about homage watches…
The problem is not that they exist, it’s that a lot of them are so nice that it makes those that paid a premium for the real thing feel pissed that someone can pay $50-$600 for an homage or a super clone and get almost all the way there.
I think the most important thing is that You like the watch. No matter if its an original, homage ir even replica, if it makes you happy and you are being honest with yourself and others, thats all that matters
My rule for homage watches is simple are they homaging a discontinued model or the entry price is utterly unattainable, 15k upwards, as long as it isn’t a fake, go for it
Why 15k? What if 1k is massively unobtainable for ppl? What if $500 is a years salary?
There’s only 3 scenarios as to why people buy homage watches.
1. They’re either completely oblivious that it is a homage and just buy it because they like the way they look.
2. They can’t afford to buy the original.
3. They don’t want to spend the money on the original.
Me personally, I really like SteelDive watches despite the fact that they’re clearly clones, although legal clones, of already existing watches of renown brands because I can’t afford the original. So, I can get the look and more or less the exact same features, sapphire crystal, lumed ceramic bezel insert, sunburst dial, applied indices and the same water resistance for literally less than 1% of the price of an original in the case of a submariner. What’s there not to like?
"What’s there not to like?" A lot. You have paid real money for an object with fake identity. An homage by definition cannot stand on its own two legs. It has no original thought put into it. Instead, it has taken someone else's design, ripped it out of its original context and tried to put it where it does not belong.
@fhujf Well, may that be as it is, but they're legal copies, and they cater to a completely different customer base. And if anything, they turn me on to the original, and if I'd ever hit a lottery jackpot, I'm definitely gonna get the originals. Not everyone has enough money to buy a 13000 dollar Submariner or save up for it within a reasonable time frame. I'm also not looking for originality in a watch. What matters to me is overall build quality, specs and aesthetics and I most definitely get that from SteelDive.
Homage watches? You mean like Tudor? Get over it. Don't look now, but you've become an industry shill.
"Hard working"? You mean, when Rolex comes up with a new dial color after a year? Or like adding a disc for the date and calling it a big word like "complication"?
BTW Rolex copies their own models. Some look very similar. So much for their ethics.
And the first question is not about fake, but whether Rolex is justified in it's exorbitant prices. Because you get a good Swiss watch like Longines or Tissot or Tudor for a fraction of the price. By keeping their prices crazily high, gouging essentially, and in short supply with arrogant ADs, Rolex and others are in a way encouraging fakes. If a fake is 99% as good at $1K then they don't deserve 20 times more. If they play dirty, then why shouldn't others?
Can a company “copy” their own models? 🤔
@@willstaier3385 Good question. The word "copy" means "same, similar, identical". It does not mean illegal / fake. So a company can indeed copy their own models and give it a different name. You know which two Rolex models I am talking about here :)
@@willstaier3385 anyone can copy any watch design. Pretty much. But despite the legality some snobs are simply too insecure to accept it and therefore make videos to tell poor ppl they are worthless.
The irony is that this topic has been done to death over the years , you could say this video is a one to one copy of anther video that someone did before you, you could think yeah but its my own take and in my own words , but this topic has been done so much that you could probably find one that says almost the exact same words as you and another that uses the exact same clips , I think watch design is kind of the same everything has been done and even if you design a watch with no influence from other watches someone will probably find one obscure watch from the 70's that looks just like the one you designed. Bottom line is and conclusion is homages are out there they are not illegal and you cant stop them and its pointless debating on if they are ok or not it achieves nothing other than making you look like a watch snob even if that's not where your coming from
Remember, the most copied watch (Submariner) is a copy of the BP 50 Fathoms.
Don’t make this type of video ever again… it’s a watch… I have a sub that stays in the box until wedding or birthday … I have a San Martin that I wear to the park…. With the kids… homages are so fun because watches are fun
Pure BS. It’s always the people with the means to buy almost anything they want to lecture the rest of us on topics like this. It took me 45 years of life to afford used Breitling’s and an Omega.
I have some beautiful pieces acquired through years of hard work and saving, but now I buy cheaper watches and enjoy everything from my Watch Dives 50 Fathoms homage, to my Steinhart Ocean One Vintage, as well as a sterile Chinese quartz version of my Hamilton KFM 38.
Ten years after acquiring my first Luxury brand pieces (used), I care about as much for these companies as they do for their customer base, which is pretty evident if you send a watch to their service department (I’m looking at you Panerai, Breitling, etc), and get it back in the same condition or worse.
There’s no code of conduct for any watch collector community, save for those with the means to own whatever, whenever. Seems like maybe they aren’t square with their purchases and have to be some sort of voice of self proclaimed wisdom.
“A Chrysler 300 does look like a Phantom, until a Phantom pulls up.” - Katt Williams
This is such a dishonest take.
He's saying it's okay for him to buy hommages but it's not okay for other people to buy homages.
And it's okay for him to do so because his rules are actually acceptable but other people's rules are not acceptable.
I definitely won't give a damn next time I'm shopping for a Chinese homage.
Beg to differ on a large part of this video. Genta's AP design has been copied by many a watch makers, does it mean that they get the pass because they're not San Martin? You're not giving a fair comparo and are being tone deaf. I love how the community majorly disagrees with your views on homages. And you mostly wasted video footage mentioning fakes, we all, snobbish and non snobbish watch enthusiasts agree that fake watch makers are the scum of the earth. Just the homage part, I (along with all other people in comments) agree on "more power to San Martin"
No longer a watch snob. I don't care about homages because popular anything has been copied to death. Including the watch industry. They all do it. Period. Every brand has their own version of the AP Royal Oak. Or the Speedmaster. You already mentioned the Cartier Tank. Bravo to the Chinese brands for showcasing their skills and ability to copy popular icons. And keeping it affordable to the commoners. I will never buy a Rolex in my lifetime. But I don't mind getting a good and well executed homage for wrist fun. They aren't cheap junk anymore. The Japanese were once accused of the same, copying Swiss and German brands. Until they got beaten at their own game. Watch snobs are just being exclusive and preventing any more players to join the market. You think all those microbrands are not Chinese made?? Even most Swiss Made is actually Made in China. Watch snobs are kidding themselves. They want their luxury status symbols. A true watch lover and fan doesn't care. I am now enjoying the value and wrist fun of owning and collecting outstanding Chinese made watches. Yes, I've own numerous Swiss watches in the past, until they were stolen. Restoring that collection is a financial impossibility. Do I condemn myself to never buy another watch because they aren't Swiss? No. BTW even Seikos are now priced out of reach of most folks.
I don’t really care what watch someone will buy. Original or Homage or just a knock off - let person make a choice.
In all my 70 years of walking this earth I have never, yes never, not even once, had someone comment on the watch I have been wearing. Fact, 99.99999999% of the population only recognise a watch by the name stamped on the dial.
Homages, whatever the era, with the makers name or emblem on the dial are ok by me. There will always be those poor unfortunate emotionally insecure souls who will buy fake goods. Now where did I leave my Hermes 2011 birkin Himalayan.
I honestly couldn't care less about 'brand heritage', if i like the style/design and the quality is there, then I'll buy it.
Homage watches are there to please ALL budgets and if it brings you pleasure - then that's ALL that matters.
I really want to agree with Max, but in the end he's just trying to add another layer of "gate keeping" to an industry/hobby that already does too much of it (unjustified retail prices, fake scarcity, ADs who play favorites, etc.). He makes the kind of argument that you can only make when you have enough money to get pretty much any watch you want. Honestly, I was with him for about half, maybe even 2/3s of the video, but then the "you should just work harder/longer" to get the real thing business started and I was out. I work very hard for my money and this is a HOBBY for me, I have fun with it, I don't run a TH-cam channel/watch app/get free watches from manufacturers, etc., so if I can get a good watch that I find aesthetically pleasing for a price I can afford...sold.
Absolutely agreed with you on this. I have no issue with people who prefer to support microbrands for their originality. But saying "you should work harder/longer" to get the real thing is an absolute ass of a snob.
I'm sure all the big brands are aware of all these homage watch brands but l've yet to learn of any of them making a big fuss over it. I know the big brands may not be able to sue these homage watch brands, but they can at least condemn them publicly. But no one is doing it. And if they are not doing it, why should those who have no business in it be the nosey ones to do it?
💯
I have some pagani design and San Martin watches, generally, my circle doesn’t do watches, and most everyone I know doesn’t wear one, unless it’s an Apple Watch, me wearing my PD1701 v3 speedmaster homage isn’t me trying to look rich, I just like the design, but not ten grands worth. The only thing with that I agree with, is that if you are wearing a fake submariner and it says Rolex, you are defrauding Rolex and the people you are trying to impress.
Let's keep in mind that this is the same guy who commissioned the manufacture of some extra long NATO straps, acted like he invented something, called it the "zero pass", and proceeded to charge people $35 for the privilege of wearing the world's bulkiest NATO.
I mean, Max seems like a nice person, but when it comes to watches, he comes across pretty toolish.
@@markfoo9179 so true. Big brands don’t whine about it because their market doesn’t buy homages and for TH-cam creators, homages don’t, “butter their bread”, so to speak.
Anything that infinges any IP is wrong. Putting Seiko on an NH build is wrong. Seiko doesn't even put Seiko on a NH35, why would you?
Can you imagine if Levi Strauss took the “genuine blue jeans” position. “These other pants companies are ruining the asthetic of our original design!” No one wears wrangler or dickies jeans and thinks “I’m such a fraud!”
Plagiarizing? Since when is Rolex using a Mechaquartz like Pagani Design? ANY HOMAGE is perfectly acceptable. An homage copying the name of another brand is not plagiarizing and not an homage. It's counterfeiting. Why did I waste my time watching this?
If they "just slap their logo on" that's still legit. They are not pretending to be what they copied from.
The improvement in technology and with the heritage of design, what was once an expensively made piece can now be done affordably by competitor brands and this will only be more pronounced in the future. Historically collaboration between brands has been one of the features of the watch industry too, so even they have been open to sharing ideas and designs going back to the start of the industry. Direct copies are not cool but homages are a legitimate way to explore design variables I think
wearing a counterfeit or faux watch is just a recipe for being mocked mercilessly. It says something about you, and your values, and it is not good.
Nothing wrong with Homages. I use them to see if I like or fit a watch before buying it like the Tactical frog FXDs etc. Same deal with all the Submariner variants too.
Ironically San Martin produces watches that Tudor should make before Tudor actually does i.e BB58 GMT and Pelegos 39mm GMT titanium.......
I’m so glad I came across you guys! I like you because it feels like you are talking WITH me about watches instead of AT me.
I think I agree with all your points.
I'll add mine which may or may not be identical to yours.
- There's an homage watch for almost anyone. It could happen at any point in the watch collecting journey. At the beginning, middle, even later some are worth exploring and have.
- Homage watches is a very broad category, don't make blanket statements that say a fake is the same as an homage, copy or replica. There are important differences.
- Don't buy fakes as they are just self-demeaning watch purchases. They do a disservice to yourself and the industry.
If you want a near identical 1:1 watch design "copy", that's fine, at least advertise the fact it's not "the original" and have proper branding to reflect that.
- One technical exception to having a brand/logo on a watch that is not truly an OEM option... Watch mods like with Seiko's and Casio's, for example.
I personally like to represent what may be considered an "OEM+ look".. something that looks like it could have come from the factory as such.
However , if someone were to ask me about my modded watch, I'd at least explain that it is such and not a factory option.
I take it like modding cars. I'll lower it, swap out for different rims/tires, modify some body part(s), etc.. some like to de-badge their cars, too. But, me, I would still proudly display what the original make of the car with its logo even though aesthetically it may be different from the original, be it a radical or subtle change. At its heart/core, it's still that car which I like and chose to buy and make bespoke to my tastes.
Does modding a car to make it different, maybe even look like a completely different or other car make it not a BMW, Honda, VW, or whatever? I don't think so. Same applies to restomods, IMHO.
The Chinese makers have really upped their game in the last few years, so getting some decent quality for $50 - $200 USD is pretty hard to resist. In fact, it's almost TOO easy, resulting in a pretty sizeable collection. The most expensive watch I currently own is a Glycine Combat 7, which at the time was less than $300. I hardly ever wear it. Instead, I typically choose one of my AliExpress watches for daily wear, and I have several, including Pagani, Steeldive, and Merkur. I've considered buying a luxury watch many times, but it always comes down to justifying the price. And if I hardly ever wear the only Swiss auto that I own, how much more would I wear something that costs 5 to 10 times as much?
Stop it! Anything is better than the Chinese watches.
Most of my watches came from pawn shops or antique/resale shops. Desirable, vintage, working watches that I rarely pay more than $100 for. I especially like seikos from the 70s and 80s. Including quartz. My watches even gain value.
Yes, it's hard to beat your aliexpress watches for value. They're stolen designs made by slaves. It's hard to compete with that. You're participating in something very bad for the hobby and industry.
@shugertits You buy what you like and let everyone else do the same. And calm down.
@@oldmanwood5011
You should know better old man
@oldmanwood5011
Nobody is upset, buddy. You want to keep contributing to overseas manufacturing, slave labor, copyright theft----you go right on ahead, wear your fake watches. Most won't notice. You'll only look like a joke to those who do care and notice.
@oldmanwood5011
Pretty crazy my comments keep getting deleted on this watch video. I assume you saw them and just don't have a response?
Homage watches will be much bigger going forward with Gen Z. The watch industry isn't going to survive against the Apple Watch if you're expected to shell out $3k for a Tudor Black Bay or $7k for a Speedmaster or $10k and higher for Rolex. All of these are mass produced watches with frankly unremarkable movements. 25 years ago these watches were attainable with a couple weeks or couple months salary. There has been MASSIVE price inflation for these watches and no substantial improvements to justify such a steep profit margins. Rolex is by far the biggest perpetrator in this. It's encouraged all the less expensive brands to do the same to the point where what used to get you a second hand Rolex Explorer can't even get you a new Tudor Black Bay.
Frankly I think this is why we saw such a crazy worldwide reaction to the MoonSwatch. Gen Z is broke. They're having to save up triple to buy a house. Ain't nobody got time for Swiss brands tripling prices. The homage is the perfectly adequate watch to hold you over until your more pressing adult obligations are easier to manage. And the whole concept of plunking down $7k on a watch when you're still in your 20s and 30s is investment portfolio suicide. For example I got rid of my Submariner for Apple stock 2 years before the iPhone came out. $5k of that stock is now worth 7 million dollars. That Rolex you can probably get a cool $8k for. 😅 Rule #1 of Charlie Munger(RIP) to young people: "bank your first $100k to invest in an index fund as quickly as possible." Once you achieved that go buy your expensive social media Flex gear.
Is it alright to drink Pepsi instead of Coke?
Or to wear a DIESEL jeans instead of a Levi's jeans?
Yes, it is as simple as that...
There are two versions of the "real" value of a watch, the value on the market (defined by demand and supply, I.e. what you're paying for luxury products) and the value defined by production and distribution costs (what you're paying for commodities).
High end Rolex fakes you can have for 600 $ and their producers are still making a lot of money on them.
What we love about watches is mainly their design and design is a one time cost. Homages are democratizing good design, they will reduce the amount of visual pollution.
The watch industries killer is not the Submariner homage by San Martin, it's the Apple watch!
What a great comment & I absolutely and wholeheartedly agree with it - i have loads of heavy hitter brands like Rolex, Cartier and Omega in my collection but I also love certain ones from Pagani & Ixdao - and the reason is simple - i just dont believe that certain watches lets say from Rolex or Patek however good they are in terms of design deserve to be priced at 100000 or 200000 dollars - Even if i had that kind of money i wudnt buy the ice blue platinum daytona with brown bezel at 90000 coz as much as i love the design its the nuisance value thats driving that price - so if i get a great quality homage of thst watch by Pagani and in 150 dollars i love the look and feel of it i dont really care who thinks this is some sort of a moral crime against "real designers who spent hours for the real thing" - they got paid for it - why sould i overpay for it? And no im not pretending to wear that Rolex if it clearly says Pagani on my dial - that is still an homage - i dont like the fact thst if a big brand does an homage of something its ok and if a smaller brand does it suddenly its about "taking designers hard work away" etc
I agree with much of what you're saying, but I say the watch industry's killer is rolux, grifters who overcharge whilst turning customers into simps.
Apple watch people have little to do with us trad watch nutters and our kinks.
Keep in mind that the majority of the WORLD will not earn enough to buy ANY of the “real deal” watches in their lifetimes. If you want the Rolex look for $200 then DO IT. If it makes you feel good, then that’s the only thing that matters. If someone with a Rolex calls you out, then he’s just a snob and we all know money can’t buy class anyway.
Never liked homage watches. There are so many fresh designs at every price point that homage watches are very irrelevant for me. If i want something more expensive i'll rather save up and get the original.
Entertaining video but seriously, who gives a f*** beside a bunch of watch enthusiasts who you would almost never meet in real life? Wear what you want.
Great vid. I'm currently in the process of modding an old Seiko 5 "datejust" homage I picked up for few hundred $ & can't wait to rock it! ⌚️
Homage watches as _either_ harmless or toxic is a false dichotomy of extremes. Shortly thereafter, you say that you put homage watches into three tiers, with the second tier being somewhere in the middle of both extremes. You need to better formulate what you say and refine your thoughts more. Reread what you write and weed out contradictions.
------------------
5:43 the enormous cost factor is practically the primary reason and attraction of buying homage watches that are as close to the originals without being a replica (i.e. legal and ethical). I mean, I argue that that's the _entire_ point. You could argue that it's a means to make others think that you have the real deal as a mere status symbol, but even then that's about money (otherwise you'd have bought the real thing), or you would have purchased a replica instead because it would do a better job at duping people while costing fractions. The other major arguments are that you could wear it carefree without worrying about say, desk diving it as much, and of scarcity. Many may still baby the watch because even homages may be a significant cost to them. But note that even when it comes to not having to worry about damaging the watch or it being scarce (as in the vintage watch example you mention), it still has to do with cost--replacement, repair, etc. The overarching issue with how you present this part of the video segment is that you mention the cost factor as merely one point within your three tier explanation, as opposed to cost being _the_ defining point. That is, you went out to explain whether homage watches were harmless or toxic, divided the content into different types of homage watches, and only mentioned the cost factor as if it were not the major issue.
Overall, homages are the next best thing for people who can't shell out thousands of dollars on a Rolex or other watch without it being illegal. The originals look great, but I'm not going into debt or lose a substantial amount of savings on a luxury good.
I think there needs to be a clear distinction between a “clone” and a “homage”.
E.g. a Paganini Speedy isn’t a homage it’s a clone with Pagani’s label on it 😂
There’s this vibe that is likely unintentionally communicated from videos like this. And it is the feeling that if you’re gonna get into this hobby, then follow the unspoken rules. Only originals are worth your hard earned money. And if you’re not willing to save up and wait till you can get one, anything things else is frowned upon.
But that doesn’t connect with those who are never going to be able to afford that original with all the heritage and the brand cache they bring. Neither does it speak to those who perhaps can but who are decidedly unwilling to drop that type of scratch on wrist adornments. Nothing against Max and others who care about the industry. But as a consumer I am mostly (if not entirely)concerned about getting the watch I want on wrist at the most affordable price. Unless you’re telling me that homages, replicas and clones are illegal, I have no problem wearing them. But don’t judge me; I’m still growing in the hobby. Maybe a year or two from now I’ll feel different.
Replicas & clones *are* illegal though (depending on your jurisdiction)
The iornay being Picasso stole that from T.S. Eliot: "Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal."
Own Omega and Panerai but my guilty pleasure is my Pagani Design Bluesy and Hulk. I’ll wear them around the house and get a lot of enjoyment out of them. Yes, they are blatant copies… but unlike replicas, they still have their logo on the dial.
Still prefer to wear my genuine stuff outside the door.
The Rolex Daytona would not exist without Zenith, it’s not an homage……
I recently discussed this topic with another watch collector during my live stream.
I feel the issue isn’t so much with homage watches being a part of the community for collectors to enjoy, even when they are one-for-one copies, but rather in how we label them. A one-for-one copy should be called a clone-or “clomage” at best.
That said, I completely respect collectors who enjoy a clomage if it brings them joy, and I’ve indulged in it myself. However, as I mature as a collector, I find that a true homage holds more appeal for my personal collection.
Great video Max! Cheers, and Happy New Year my friend! 🎉
You’re confusing straight up counterfeit watches. Meaning those that say they are the real thing and an actual homage. Most people that live watches, can’t put a Patek or Rolex on their grail list. The price is just ridiculous. So other options are there and if that works for them, perfect. My San Martin doesn’t say Rolex…additionally, my fav watch is a Steinhart OVM that homages a vintage Rolex military watch. Your logic allows for the Steinhart but not the San Martin. I’ll just buy what I like and not give a crap what others think.
Your position on tier 2 homages comes off as snobbish, elitist and hypocritical. You own a Seiko red Sub with trademark infringement text on the dial. Happy New Year and let's not judge other people's choices in wrist jewelry, ok?
The truth is he is willing to come across this way to get views. It’s shameful really.
If i want a vintage Rolex homage, i buy a Tudor.
Counterfeit watches and trademark violations - absolutely not. But I'm pretty much okay with other homage-style watches.
I think watch nerds are just mad that Chinese brands figured out you can achieve 95% of a "luxury" watch for literally a fraction of the price. Guess what: spending $10k on a STEEL WATCH that does something your phoen does, and better might add, is a terrible "investment". Miss us with the snobbery
just curious, what is the seiko red text submariner model number?
This. ^^^
The dude that started Maen has clearly stated that the Manhattan 37 is hugely influenced by his love for the Vacheron. He may have said something along the lines of making his own version of it. It might not be on the product page but he hasnt made it a secret either.
I liked the “It’s fine for me to create homage watches but it is not okay for YOU to buy them” argument. It’s an ingenious way to resolve cognitive dissonance and maintain the air of superiority that permeates this video.
it‘s funny, i‘m a watch enthusiast for 5 years now, and never asked me anyone about my watch i‘m wearing. so nobody cares what you wear. NOBODY. when you wanna wear a worthless watch, it‘s your problem. not everybody can afford so much money. and almost everybody i know has no idea what a rolex daytona is nor what a hommage watch should be. somehow i think you‘re kinda snob.
...bro doesn't have people who compliments his watches, you hate to see it
I appreciate that a homage means that great watch design sits on the wrists of more people.
Has the Rolex organization homaging itself for decades and decades? Imagine if the original designer of the Explorer had a child who went to Rolex and homaged the father’s design. Then that adult child had a child, and repeated the homage cycle again.
Another reason why some vintage homages are ok is because you can't really buy the original reference new or almost new anymore. To some people, it matters to them that the watch started its life with them and not another person. Vintage homages can also have better movements. Not always but possible.
Fake ❌
Clone ❌
Homage ✅
There's my 2 cents.
Guilty as charged, I bought a TIMEX Legacy Tonneau chronograph. I have no ideas what ‘genuine’ Swiss watch this is based on, but it’s a vintage styled stunner. Then there’s the Seiko Mod Santos, at 2% of the price of a Cartier. I’ll never afford a Cartier, so I’ll never deny Cartier a sale.
I have to admit, watching this actually made me pull the trigger for a Baltany homage to test out if I'd really like a Rolex Explorer.
Of course you'll like the Rolex Explorer. It's such a perfect watch. Once you wear one you'll know what I mean.
There are patents and laws that should take care of that topic. It's just annoying that nobody should be 'ethically' allowed to buy an submariner hommage or even clone. It's not technology in that regard, it's just a case form. Many big swiss brands are bringing exact clones aka homages to rolex watches (alpina, chronos, etc.) and nobody should give any fs about it imo
0:28
Picasso also said:
Critics; what do they know? If I spit on the sidewalk, they’d frame it and call it art!
Why do you care? And why do you feel need to project your insecurities onto others? Because this is simply about your own insecurities - ppl who buy homage watches tend to not have the means to purchase watches such as you can comfortably afford - so why do you have an opinion that looks down on such ppl and their purchases? Snobbery?
I’ve figured it out now. This video is purposefully divisive. To drive some views to your channel. Should have seen this before. And certainly in keeping with you seemingly being an out of touch self-centred snob.
In my own experience, people are okay with a cheap homage. Then, its a "great deal" and a "genius design". But once you get to the more expensive ones, people call it a rip off, even though its still often a tenth of the price of the "real" one.
The problem I get into with this discussion....is a $1,500 microbrand homage really six times better than a $250 San Martin homage? Most times, IMO, no. Neither IMO, compare to the luxury original given several factors.
No wait, i want you to make more about this watch rant videos.
Wear the homage, keep the real one in the safe for special occasions.
Tier 2 are not "homage" watches. They're just rip offs. That's fine by me, but let's not pretend that they are somehow paying homage to an earlier design. They're just copying it.