Everything About DETERMINATION in Deltarune Chapter 2
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ต.ค. 2021
- After concealing its presence for the better part of three years, Toby Fox has revealed that Determination is, in fact, part of Deltarune. I would go so far as to call this... kind of a big deal. In this video I analyze everything we currently know about Determination in the Deltarune universe, and speculate as to how its future role may diverge from its original purpose in Undertale. There are also lots of memes, if you're into that kind of thing.
Patreon: / andrewcunningham
Discord: / discord
--CREDITS--
All Undertale footage is taken from Novaphyer’s no-commentary playthrough: • Undertale (Pacifist Ru...
Asriel battle background: • Undertale Asriel's Fig...
That one clip: • the moment 4chan saw s...
Obligatory Dark Souls footage: • [ThePruld] When you go...
Mario pleads to God for answers: • Super Trash Bros. VS. ...
Death of So Sorry: • [Vinesauce] Joel - Har...
Spamton animation: • ARE YOU A [BIG SHOT], ...
Akira footage: • Akira - Opening | HD
End of Evangelion footage: • Video
Music that wasn’t made by Toby Fox (in order of appearance):
Papers Please title theme by Lucas Pope: • Papers, Please: Theme ...
Symphony of the Bones by Alex Rosetti: • [Undertale] Symphony o...
Bonescuffle by DM Dokuro: • DM DOKURO - BONESCUFFL...
Super Mario 64 file select theme by Koji Kondo: • File Select - Super Ma... [sic]
Victory Song (Everhood OST) by KM_EXP: • Victory Song (feat. KM...
The rest of the music was made by Toby Fox. You know where to find it. - เกม
--- POINTS OF NOTE ---
*REPLIES:* I have been doing my best so far to uphold my promise of unfiltered parasocial engagement by replying to just about every comment that provided a foothold for conversation. The rate at which this video is gaining views, however, is making this rapidly infeasible. So don't be too upset if you don't get a reply- I still read everything.
*PRONOUNS:* At 5:31 I flubbed Kris's pronoun while recording. I noticed this later, and added an annotation to correct it, but at least four people have already missed that and commented to chew me out. Rest assured, I am part of the camp that considers making up genders for Kris to be acceptable in AU fanfiction and nowhere else.
*MULTIPLE SOULS:* When I tabled the idea that Kris might have multiple souls as a joke, I didn't expect that half of the ensuing comments would start arguing for the idea. I have read many such comments so far, and I have to admit that there is a case to be made that Kris has at least two souls (their own, and the players [although they could just as easily share one soul, it's ambiguous]), but I've yet to hear a satisfactory explanation for where the third one comes from. That's not to say I can actually refute the idea of a third soul- just that I personally think all the scenarios that justify its existence are dumb.
*THE PLAYER IS SEPARATE FROM KRIS:* I know. I tried to make this clear in the video, but in order to keep the script on track I resisted getting sucked into any discussion on that topic. To be perfectly clear, I think that Kris being a puppet to the player is _the central conceit_ of Deltarune, in the same way that Determination was the central conceit of Undertale. Deltarune's version of Determination might be more comparable to Undertale's LOVE and EXP- a secondary conceit that never gets quite as much exploration, but is still thematically relevant and important to any cohesive model of the lore.
*FERRIS WHEEL ANALYSIS:* I keep getting comments requesting a sincere review of the Ferris wheel scene. To be clear, I'm _not_ going to do this (I'm not the guy for the job), but my relationship with the romance subplots in Deltarune is strictly tsundere. The edgy pivot into _facts and logic_ mode was poking fun at myself, not the Ferris wheel scene.
Third soul is Ralsei's.
the third soul could be the knights?
the third soul is your mom
I don’t think there’s much (if any) solid evidence to support the notion that the red SOUL isn’t Kris’, or that Kris has more than one SOUL.
The beat-up state of Kris’ birdcage and Toriel’s comment on how Kris sometimes spends a lot of time in the bathroom both strongly imply that Kris had torn out their SOUL in the past. And considering that we’ve only ever seen Kris toss the red SOUL into the birdcage and the sink like it’s a regular occurance, we can reasonably deduce that these past instances of SOUL ripping involved this SOUL specifically. They also always make sure to put the red SOUL back inside of them once they’re done with whatever mischief they’re up to, which wouldn’t really make sense if it isn’t theirs.
Also worth noting is that both Ralsei and Spamton acknowledge the red SOUL as belonging to Kris, with Spamton specifically referring to Kris as a “HEART ON A CHAIN.” This line only really make sense when one considers Kris to be the red SOUL (the heart in question), with the player being the chain that controls them.
In addition to this, Susie remarks that Kris was “sleeping like a corpse” during class. Much like with Spamton’s line, this line only really makes sense if we consider the red SOUL to be Kris’. As such, removing the red SOUL-the “container of their life force”-from their body would technically make them a walking corpse. This is reinforced by the fact that Kris literally dies/is brought to the edge of death whenever the red SOUL sustains too much damage and we get a game over.
(It’s also worth mentioning that Toby instantly shot down the implication that there were two SOULs inside of Kris whilst addressing known issues with the game on DELTARUNE’s website.)
But let’s say that Kris does have their own SOUL separate from the red SOUL. Why do we never see it, if it is indeed still inside their body? And if it is outside of their body, then where is it, and how/why was it removed? Furthermore, how would Kris still be alive and be able to feel compassion like normal people do without a SOUL? And how was the red SOUL created for us to control, considering that we know that the power of the SOUL is impossible to recreate artificially? As far as I’ve seen, nobody has been able to provide a sufficient answer for any these questions.
@@psychopomp4135 Good stuff dude, you're really covering my ass here. I'm starting to think SOUL LORE might be a good topic for a future video. And it's funny, I'd actually forgotten about that little comment from the FAQ about two souls showing up in the battle box being "just a glitch", but in retrospect I think I understand why Toby was so keen on clarifying that.
I think one of my favourite things about chapter 2 was it demonstrated that toby was totally capable of completely rejecting the mad ramblings of his fanbase, and continuing to power on with his own overarching narrative, which is frankly far for the better, I think.
Thank God he did.
Yeaah, which is why I don't want sans to be the final boss again
@@ionlydrinkjesusmilk7256 That's a whole mood right there
This is why i love toby, somehow he still manages to actually suprise us and create loveable characters that you dont need to connect back to undertale ones
I would be quite happy if Deltarune is a good game AND a good sequel where you don't have to play undertale to enjoy the game but still has so many element for older players to enjoy
"Kris I think speaks for themselves"
No they don't
Considering the red strings the player has around them, yeah they definitely don't
Well, we choose what they say, but they can choose how they convey it.
@@TheEmeraldCreeper yeah, like the fact they yell no when ralsei or susie (forgot lol) asks if they are okay. maybe their trying to say something, like the fact they are being controlled by some unknown force? maybe?
@@TheEmeraldCreeper Yeah, how Kris chooses to convey what you make them say or how to specifically do what you make them do is essentially the only control they have, unless they decide to rip their gog damn soul out
LMFAO 😭😭😭
"Your choices don't matter" is one of the first things we're told in this game. The first thing we're told in undertale is "It's kill or be killed " As you play undertale you learn that this way of thinking is incorrect, so it's probably the same here.
I think determination in this game manifests as the freedom to choose, and with enough determination, maybe the ability to rewrite reality (or create new ones). Freedom is often talked about being scarce in the dark world, so beings with that freedom to choose would be considered powerful, or dangerous.
So maybe instead of time travel, determination appears as, breaking or rewriting natural law, while to us its just choosing different dialog options (even if the character saying them doesn't agree)
It's about power, control...
If it just equaled to control i dont think the player would have to use noelle for the snowgrave route
@@siduxjxhdgzhdjxhxuuxxyhgg1079
When you normally attack an enemy they just run away, when Noelle uses iceshock its freezes them in place. Noelle (so far) is the only person who can out right kill enemies, so for a kind of no mercy run, she is necessary, letting them run is still to merciful.
Remember, your not just killing whoever gets in your way, you're going out of your way to kill everyone.
@@eleviathan7488 and thats what im saying. You as the player know YOUR choice to try to kill people doesnt matter so you find a way around it with noelle.
@@siduxjxhdgzhdjxhxuuxxyhgg1079
Its not that your choice didn't matter, you didn't have one, killing was impossible.
Until Noelle showed up, the player had no means to kill, acts of violence were met with retreat by the enemies. Iceshock gave the you the option freeze them solid, actually killing them.
The ability to overwrite a characters ability to choose, forcing them to do what you want, would be how a being ,with no physical form of their own, could impose their will.
The choice to kill simply wasn't an option, until Noelle appeared, as you then couldn't fulfill your desires.
Now a truly determined player could rewrite the code of the game to allow them destroy lives with a single click, but most aren't there, and this was much easier
Or as one said "ITS ABOUT DRIVE ITS ABOUT POWER WE STAY HUNGRY WE DEVOUR PUT IN THE WORK PUT IN THE HOURS AND TAKE WHATS OURS"
On the subject of loneliness and creating fiction, I've always wondered if the meta-narrative inspiration for Deltarune's story is literally Toby putting aside his early concepts for the game circa 2012 to instead create Undertale with reused assets. It would explain why so much of the main cast have abandonment issues. It also explains why some background characters present in Deltarune can randomly show up in Undertale as greyed out, ghostly versions of themselves - they were the originally made for Deltarune but weren't able to be squeezed into Undertale as actual characters in the game world.
Holy shit that is a really interesting theory. I will say that at least 2 of the gray characters (donut guy and goner kid) are also in undertale which weakens the theory a bit, but its still really interesting to think about
One bit from the very first draft of Undertale is that Sans and Papyrus were supposed to have a grandfather named Semi (after Semi Serif) which was scrapped very early. The only traces of him are a note that you have to read through the paper from the other side and, MAYBE, a blanked out note on Papyrus' early draft where he is a neckbeard, saying he has a [redacted black line] named [redacted black line] which line up with "grandfather" and "Semi Serif".
Now... what is the most common interpretation of what happened to Gaster after his incident? That he was forgotten, essentially redacted from reality except hard to find hints.
Gaster may have been added as a metaphor for scrapped characters, destined to not exist except in fragmented notes or forgotten lines of code, or as an... Easter EGG.
I think your point about Deltarune and creating fiction being Toby's reaction to how Undertale was received and exploded is fascinating, I never thought about it like that. Excited to come back in a decade and see you were right!
Thanks for the vote of confidence, the Deltarune 2030 hype train has truly left the station. The trippy thing about trying to guess the intent behind stuff in Deltarune is that the game is a hybrid of ideas Toby had floating around before Undertale, and ideas generated in response to Undertale. Any of the stuff with Kris being a soul-puppet etc. I could easily see being in the former camp, but the fountains- because they have the thematic tie-in you mentioned and conspicuously reuse the notable _Undertale thing_ of Determination- do strike me as retrospective. I'd fucking kill to hear a post-mortem on the whole project that breaks down the origin of all the game's concepts and how they coalesced. But, I mean, we're talking 2040 for that at least...
Apparently, Deltatune was imagined way before undertale so I think that disproves it
@@zenatrical
Read the comment upside yours ; it's a combination of both ^^' (at least, maybe)
Deltarune was planned out before Undertale hit the scene, but I do think Undertale's popularity may have influenced deltarune.
Don't worry, Deltarune WON'T take a WHOLE DECADE to be finished since a few weeks ago it was told that Chapter 3 is already at 50% and it will come out together with chapters 4 and 5.
Also, since chapter 2 ACTUALLY only took around 1 year to be PROPERTY started and finished.
I think around 2027 or 28 we may have the WHOLE game finished.
Alright, so in Undertale, determination was sometimes described as "the power to shape the world in accordance to your will" or something like that by Flowey. And since making dark fountains using determination in Deltarune is that quite literally changing the world using your willpower, it may be possible that the powers share more similarities than we think.
This is a really good interpretation of it all however. Escapism seems to be a huge theme in Deltarune, and the queen's monologue during her boss fight only makes this theory more credible.
Determination was described as a lot of things in Undertale, but that doesn't mean there's ever any indication that it does anything beyond time travel. Flowey phrases it vaguely, but we know _exactly_ what he means by "shape the world to your will" thanks to his other dialogue, so I see no reason why that line would generate ambiguity. Any other power you want to read into Determination in Undertale would also have little to no metatextual backing, which, as I explained, I believe to be the main reason for the existence of Determination as a concept.
@@andrew_cunningham Agreed. You can 'meld the world to your will' because you have the power to go back and change the outcome of what you already know happens next.
@@andrew_cunningham Uhh, we _explicitly_ see Determination doing other things in Undertale. i.e. enhanced strength (Undyne the Undying) and significantly increased resiliency (Undyne the Undying & the Amalgamates)
"Changing the world using willpower"
Ah yes, the final bossfight is just going to be tengen toppa gurren lagann all over again.
Because the habilities of monsters in DR is very different to UT's I think that their souls are fundamentaly different as is the determination itself, because in UT monsters could use magic naturally because of the way their souls were made, also this determination needed to create a fountain doesn't have to be the powerful subtance of UT but instead the natural determination we have, only that something happened that makes it capable of creating a dark world. I say this because if one were just determined enough the dark worlds wouldn't be a secret.
Mysteryman's work at hand perhaps?
I like to think that Kris being determined is what allowed the, to create the fountain without their soul. We saw what happened with Spamton when he was finally was free from his strings: death. Immediately. Kris, being a lightner, and one with a soul, probably would have the same fate if they were finally separated from the player, but because they were *determined* they managed to linger on just for a little while to be able to perform everything soulless and create the fountains. This is probably why they walk so zombie-like without the soul, because they're on the brink of collapse and can't live without their strings being pulled, just like Spamton.
So I'd say that the soul is no longer what determination is tied to. Back in undertale it was that whole Chara possession stuff but now the soul is US. It quite literally is us manifesting Kris against their will. We overwrite their save at the very start, and it implies that only Kris can see these, because we, the player, can through the lens of the game. Determination this time is within the lightners in general like you said in the video
This is such a good point.
I'm not religious but, in deltarune, Kris and their family are heavily involved in the church. What if *you as the player* are the god of this world, and you are infusing Kris's soul with the power to go on? Kris being literally unable to continue without the soul within them?
It could be the same for Spamton. What if whoever was in *his* body made him a [BIG SHOT]? He wanted to be successful so he sold his soul to the highest bidder, and that person inside him sent him down the path he's on now?
I think the 'dark fountains=fiction" makes sense.
I used to get a lot of ideas for stories, projects, art pieces, etc. I would start on them, but never finish them, instead I'd lose focus on them and move on to whatever new idea I thought up. The sheer amount of unfinished projects that I'd accumulated would stress me out so much that eventually I shut down. I formed the mentality that there wasn't a point in creating because I'd just end up abandoning it later. At one point, I was so overwhelmed by my failure to stay focused on a project, that I destroyed most of my work to start fresh.
Now I have a lot of regret, because instead of doing what I did, I could have taken those ideas, characters, and designs and reworked them into something even better, just like what is happening in the game.
You go through these dark worlds, and '"recruit" the characters you like into your dark world.
You're taking elements of one project and using it to build a bigger and better one.
At least that's my take on it.
The real "Group Project" is the friends we made along the way...hah hah hah.
@@Solibrae literally
Honestly, the way I got around that was to accept that I was creating total garbage and doing it anyway, which is to say, fanfiction I posted under a new pseudonym. It is okay for what you create to be total garbage because it is important to practice _finishing_ projects, and in the process you will learn what your own workflow looks like and how to harness it out of experience.
Honestly it sounds like my problem.
I'm making a story but as much as i wish to make a game out of it i can only write a story (and draw some characcters) at the very least.
Through my life i've been feeling weak, out of control, like a puppet on strings. I don't have willpower (or determation *ba dum tss* ) to do and achieve anything. I need someone to pull my strings to get me to work and without that help i'm a lifeless husk.
And to cope with that i'm dreaming about a fictional world where live is better, more interesting with an amazing story.
"But what's the point in making something that nobody will read or even like? What makes this concept of a story any different from the finished project no one will see?"
It's this thought that blocks me.
So berdly didn’t actually get snowgraved he got smacked over the head with a chair and passed out
"That such a story, created for such a simple purpose, could blossom into such a large, wonderful, world-changing thing. That is the majesty of words, Kris."
- Father Alvin Boom, chapter 2.
Damn I'll probably use this for my senior year quote
See this opens up the possibility that the dog acting as toby in the library in chapter 1 created chapter 2’s fountain. Wonderful.
Guess the Annoying Dog is the Knight after all, haha.
@@JonnySpec Oh god this made me think of an actual theory which is that maybe "the knight" is some kind of being that posseses people and makes them open dark fountains to start the roaring, and maybe at the end of chapter 1 at the end it WAS kris taking out the player but it was the knight taking out the knife then kris took control and used it to eat the pie, and on the end of chapter 2 the knight took full control of kris and opened a dark fountain in their house.
@@notdog6642 Oh damn
@@notdog6642 that would explain the three souls/save slots. our power, kris' power, and the knight's.
@@CuddIebone no stop
Makes me think about how Gerson is a fiction writer in this universe, despite being a historical writer, too. Interesting how it seems he may or may not be important here, with whatever Alvin was foreshadowing...
Gerson's UNDERTALE counterpart was one of the few people who knew about the Delta Rune prophecy too, so it seems like he's always a very knowledgeable individual.
I love the chaotic, crass writing and how it contrasts with the deep research you did here. I LOVE when something really deep and analytical is explained through completely unfitting language.
It's possible that when Queen talks about determination, she doesn't mean the specific concept from Undertale. Just the more basic and general definition, like willpower. She says it with a capital D, but every word she says is capitalized. It's even entirely possible that Toby made this creative choice for Queen just to make this misdirection work.
Inventing an entire character quirk to enable a story beat? That's very Toby.
I don't think he would go that far maybe he realized how that could work after Queen was made
That's Very Like Him. I Can See Toby Doing Something Like That
Yeah I think it is important to remember that while she makes good points, most of that monologue was speculation, though in the story it’s easy to assume it’s implied fact
@Justin Toby Fox's first experience with a large audience was working on Homestuck. Homestuck characters have "typing quirks" where certain characters use or avoid punctuation and capitalization in various unusual ways, make specific leetspeak-esque text substitutions, or make other thematically appropriate excursions from proper written English. It's definitely a cool design choice but also he did inherit it from Andrew Hussie
Yeah that's pretty much what I imagine the game's about: lonliness. The Roaring might be a personal shorthand for something a "Roaring Success" and how making too many worlds(games) might cause something big and unstoppable to flood the world in them.
With this idea in mind I think Toby has a fear of his games becoming too big and becoming something like Assassin's Creed, where they're pumped out each ear and are completely soulless. The inhabitants of the worlds(games) become completely lifeless while the lightners(players) are lost in an unending dark(constant shovelware). IIRC, toby once wished for undertale to fade into obscurity as a niche title, and I think he still holds onto that idea. Toby was just a music guy who made modded games. He found some modicum of success as Radiation while pumping out music for Homestuck, but since Undertale *FUCKING EXPLODED* he's been blasted by the spotlight. Unlike someone like Scott and his FNAF series, I think Toby really just wants to be left alone to make games.
While there's themes of lonliness in Deltarune, I think there's something to be said about the peaceful moment at the end of the first game where you're left on your own. You don't really have a goal aside from "head home" and can just wander around freely. Eventually Kris even ditches the Player to get some proper alone time, even if it's creepy as fuck and ominous. I think Toby wants to sell a certain kind of lonliness, where it's an option rather than just how things are.
Either way I'm mostly just speculating and pulling things out of my ass. I might be completely wrong on all fronts.
Couldn't have said it better. Interesting point about the loneliness, too. I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but the Hometown epilogue sections in both chapters definitely have a unique tone to them (due in no small part to that unreasonably bittersweet music). I think Kris's silent nature invites speculation about what emotions, exactly, those sequences are trying to evoke, and "loneliness" doesn't quite do it justice, but I was kinda boxed into a one-word summary for the sake of pacing.
@@andrew_cunningham i think you used the perfect word. it's bittersweet.
welp, theory improved
I dunno. These types of theories always seem wrong.
i don't think it's some big analogy for the limelight. i mean, it could be, and it'd work, but toby fox has extensively spoken about how deltarune's story and concept were thought up both before and during the development of undertale. how could he have made a story about his success before it happened?
I don't think it was said that monsters LACKED determination, just that humans have a lot more.
Undyne isn't necessarily special in that she had determination, but she simply managed to by sheer force of will, overclock her souls production(?) of determination. Sorta like how everybody has adrenaline, but if you have it too much or for too long, you'll get a heart attack and die. Alphys' experiments were basically like giving the monsters an overdose of adrenaline, at first they showed an increase in ability to simply survive, but their bodies simply couldn't handle the stress that was being put upon it long term.
Determination seems to be some form of "how bout I do, anyway~" to the universe, an energy that reacts to/is produced by consciousness/desire to override physical laws through sheer "fuck you", sorta like spiral power in Gurren Lagann, albeit less over the top.
Saving and loading is probably an extreme case of determinations use as it only seems to be possible (at least to any notable degree) in places where the world is "weaker" (dark worlds are heavily conceptually based and the underground has probably been seriously fucked up by whatever gaster did, I mean it split the dude across space and time, that's not the kind of event that'd be completely concequenceless.)
However save points do still exist somewhat according to the dialog you see when you first encounter a save point in deltarune, but we don't see any in the overworld, so they're probably rarer or only nearby other weak spots (out in the forest near the gaster bunker maybe?). The save points may however have less capacity to work and may in fact only bring a few fragmented memories or even just vague indications of preferable and non-preferable things (which would explain why Toby would avoid putting save points in the overworld, cause how do you even represent something like that?). The creation of fountains might just be a thing that is weak enough to still be done in the overworld and with a monsters meager amount of determination (although the effect may be more lackluster than if a human did it) (although that does beg the question of what a stab in the dark world would do then, throw the world into an even more conceptual and less physical state?)
I think the probability of encountering save point depends on danger. Hometown is a safe place, you don't need determination when there is no risk of termination. Frisk was under constant risk of being killed by monsters so he needed a lot of determination, so he had a lot of save points. Kris is only in danger in the Dark World.
I just think that gaster made the save points. I think that he might have more control in the dark worlds.
2:59 I think the barrier makes the underground operate as its own "world", same goes with the dark fountains and the dark worlds, whoever has the most determination can save/load in any particular world
That's not a bad theory.
Maybe the Barrier was created out of Determination as well as "Magic".
Now that I think about it, there aren't any save points in the overworld/light world is there?
@@WanderTheNomad There very much aren't. My intuition says that's something that can't happen.
@@Solibrae i think that its not souls that break barrier but their determination with most of determination coming from red soul
Yeah I think dark worlds being a metaphor for losing yourselves in fiction is a pretty good theory, especially because all of the dark worlds’ gimmicks so far seem to be outlets for escapism. The first was board and card games, the second being the internet, and the third is seemingly television.
couldn't have said it any better
Nice catch!
persona 4
what would be the last dark world then, last metaphor, chapter 7?
If your theory is right, we'll have one in the librarby too, but I don't see what the other could be? Well, we didn't see Papyrus home and the door at the south but that's that.
God. This was a fantastic watch -- it really ties together the metatextuality that made UNDERTALE so great with the overall experience of DELTARUNE and draws to a satisfying conclusion. I honestly couldn't have worded this any better myself. Whether it's true or not, this is a mind-blowingly thorough interpretation, and I look forward to seeing more content of yours.
Also, the overall subliminal humor of this video is fantastic. It's well-paced and doesn't interrupt any important portions of the video, which is amazing. That's a temptation I would not be able to resist. This all culminates in the outro, the greatest thing I have seen all week.
I'm happy that the gags came across well. I'd like to think that the reason they don't interrupt the essay is because most of them weren't intentional reaches for humour so much as raw translations of what I see behind my eyelids at night after six years of exposure to the Undertale fandom. That outro was the product of the kind of insanity that, I have to assume, only arises after spending three weeks editing a video destined get 500 views.
@@andrew_cunningham Ah yes, 500 views... I think you beat that a bit.
metasexuality
bottom text
This makes sense as Kris makes these fountains to avoid reality, yet still reality creeps in.
The two Secret Bosses so far (Jevil and Spamton, as of writing this comment) tackle a conflict with freedom. Kris wants freedom. This is the reality that haunts Kris. That's why they make the fountains. To free themselves and others. Like Susie says, the Dark Worlds are just BETTER than reality. So Kris has friends who agree. Yet, we as the SOUL, the PLAYER, do not want this. And shuts these Dark Worlds down. The SOUL and Kris are separate entities. Kris has their own determination, we have ours. As the game progresses, we will most likely find out where Kris' determination resonates.
We will also get more information about what the PLAYER is. In the Library upstairs, we already find a book about SOULS. With each Chapter, I assume that the bookworm dude will back up to let us read one more book per chapter. We still have 5 out of 6 books to read. 5 chapters left.
It's still difficult to theorize at the moment, Toby is good at hiding information. But this will be revealed more as the game closes in on the finish line.
Thank you for reading this long-ass comment, have a cookie and a nice day!
Given the analogy of creating dark fountains to creating fiction, I'm surprised by how few fan-made dark worlds I've seen on the internet. Sure, there are predictions for chapters 3 and 4, but other than that this concept has near endless potential. Think about it; you could take any room with items in it and transform that room into a sprawling world with fun characters and set pieces. It honestly feels like untapped potential to me.
I think that's because the current situation of Deltarune is different from Undertale; when it(Undertale) came out, it was a complete game, once people discovered all the endings and secrets and whatnot that was all.(And since people craved more, they made their own things either continuing the story or changing it entirely) But Deltarune is still incomplete so people can look forward to future content and try to predict it.
6:00
Actually KRIS does have a save file in ch1, we overwrite it with ours.
So, maybe?
Edit: Play ch1 and go to first save point (you must play on an empty save) then read the save file before saving. You will see it
I'm familiar with that detail, but who the save file belongs to has nothing to do with the whether saving is tied to determination.
@@andrew_cunningham Well the game had shown subtle hints that kris and the player are two different individuals.
It wouldn't make sense if it's only a mundane game mechanic since kris can also save, unless they are also a "player" which is very unlikely imo.
So only left with the other choice which is tied to determination maybe
@@zackdroidcoder Oh I see what you mean now. But it's still not accurate to say that implies saving is tied to determination. In light of that info, saving is still a power unique to Kris, while we know Determination is not. Kris also has the unique ability to seal fountains, so my money's on both that and saving being explained by some future lore about the Kris-player-complex (assuming, as you convincingly argue, that saving is still diegetic).
@@andrew_cunningham I think saving and loading is tied to the creator of the dark world. We have control over Kris who we've learned is the knight, so we control the dark worlds we've been to since they were Kris', this control manifests as control over time within the dark world. At least, that's my interpretation.
@@learncat8771 This is assuming he is actually the Dark Knight...
While Kris is a little shifty around these dark worlds and even made one in front of us, it's unclear if he has anything to do with the first two or even the third.....
Also note that absolutely none of the characters that supposedly know the Dark Knight to an extent ever make any sort of remark of Kris being similar to said knight.......
fun fact about the 3 Files: In Ch1 (idk if it's still the case in Ch2 tho) the inside of Asriel's drawer changed depending on the 3 Files
Oh Jesus... why, Toby? Why are you compelled to give me a migraine...
Wait WHAT?!? How is Asriel related to saving? Is he giving us our third save slot somehow?
What are the 3 different contents?
@@doblodoblo510 in file 1, Asriel's drawer will have a ripped shirt, file 2 will have a student ID with an embarrassing haircut, file 3 will have expired pizza coupons.
@@dvv6026 wow that's crazy... That leaves so much for theory crafting and interpretation S..
A lil interesting detail is that Determination is yellow.
We know that from Undertale due to our yellow SAVE points and the amalgamate (Literally a monster overdosing on Determination) turning into a perfect copy of a SAVE point with the same colour.
However in Deltarune our SAVE point is white... I really don't know what to make out of this but it is an interesting detail.
I guess monster souls are also white ? I dunno!
"creating fiction"
Exactly. Especially with the thing Toby Fox recently talked about, creating fiction and escapism will probably be the main point of deltarune and the whole great collapse thing is about ignoring reality.
It's probably supposed to say that creating fiction and indulging in it within limits is a great thing but getting lost in it and ignoring real life problems can lead to catastrophe.
So it's basically the plot of Evangelion all over again.
The missing part of the explanation is: what are the so-called "titans" that will appear from too many fountains?
@@WanderTheNomad since there is a church, the idea of divine intervention is plausible and could be anything tbh, Maybe Kris opened the Dark Fountains so that Asriel can come back earlier or perhaps these titans refer to the secret bosses? we still don't know
@@sailorhatguy5763 yea I thought about it a bit more and remembered Spamton Neo's lines about reaching the heavens and towering over the darkness and not being big enough(or something, I don't remember the exact lines).
That could possibly be referring to becoming a titan. So maybe the titans _are_ the secret bosses.
Ah, my favorite type of story.
"Go touch some fucking grass."
@@martiandracula7771 What if Deltarune was secretly pro-escapism and Toby bamboozled you all? Would you be angry? I bet you would.
I'm surprised that there are no instances of prior runs affecting dialogue in Deltarune. Toby seemed to love using these meta-game lines as clever 4th wall breaks in Undertale, so it seems like he must be restraining himself from using them now for some reason. In Undertale, they were almost exclusively spoken by Flowey and Sans in response to the player's actions during a previous genocide route. Yet for some reason, even though you can commit almost equally horrible acts in Deltarune, you can escape scot-free by just starting a new save file. Not a single character will mention the actions you committed in a previous Snowgrave run.
Currently, there are at least 3 characters that might be capable of commenting about your prior runs:
1. The entity that helps you create your vessel in the introduction.
2. The entity that destroys your vessel. (This is debatably the same entity, but they have very different speech patterns to the first, and they seem to overwrite Kris' thoughts occasionally.)
3. Ralsei
I could probably dig for hours on the first 2 characters, but they currently seem to serve exclusively as fodder for Game Theory right now. They don't have nearly enough information to make any conclusions. The main point of concern is Ralsei. His knowledge of the game mechanics seems to be 100% intentional, even down to knowing what buttons you can press. He's one of the few characters that is fully aware that he's inside a game, and he even seems to know what name you entered in the prologue, naming castletown after you. He's the only character that ever prompts you to save, but he does it in parentheses (which seems to be special "quiet" dialogue that is either muttered or literally in another character's head). Given that he's obviously aware of the player and their influence on Kris, I have to wonder if he knows anything about your other files.
When it comes to writing meta-level lore, Toby Fox is an absolute mastermind. There is not a single piece of dialogue in either game that is not either fully explained or open to interpretation. I definitely think many of the things in the video that you dismissed as unimportant will likely end up being significant in some way in the future, especially regarding the relation of game mechanics to the world. Either way, I still loved the video and really would love to see more from you if you're willing to put in the time in the future! Your writing style meshes really well with your sense of humor and it just clicks. You've earned a subscriber with this.
Good points about Ralsei, I was a bit more dismissive of him than was warranted. I'm warming up to the character over time, and could see him playing a major role later on. I'm not going to argue with you saying Toby is a bit of a madlad when it comes to tying up loose ends, but it seems a bit dangerous to say "nothing has ever been inexplicable". This is trivially true since the fanbase will create four hundred theoretical explanations for every inconsistency his games might conceivably have, but that doesn't mean every element of the story was given the same amount of consideration. I stand by, for example, the fact that "essence" is an asspull that will never be explained further. That being said, I don't specifically doubt that some of the minor mechanical details in Deltarune might become relevant later. I just... really couldn't guess how.
Toby did say in an FAQ that he couldn't make another game like UT and he wouldn't try to, so I think save files would just be that because also in UT the whole game was based around that unique save file that could ONLY reset. As for Ralseis knowledge... We'll have to wait and see
@@andrew_cunningham I don't remember how much of this was actual in-game lore and how much was exactly as you described (fandom theorising overwriting creator inconsistencies), but I was given the impression that the "essence" wasn't so much a technical game term like "determination" but rather his actual, physical remains. I seem to remember dialogue about Asriel's dust being spread across Asgore's flowerbed, thus getting absorbed into the plants as nutrient through the roots.
Great video, though; I'm really loving the discussion here.
_"Toby seemed to love using these meta-game lines as clever 4th wall breaks in Undertale"_ Yeah, _in Undertale,_ but he hasn't used them in either of his publicly released Earthbound hacks, so it doesn't make sense to assume he would be 'restraining himself' from including them, based off of a sample size of one.
@@zuresei Most of the sources I've read seem to say something along the lines of "essence = dust", though I'm not sure how much of that idea is actually supported by the game. Of course, my statement about Undertale being 100% flawless was exaggerated. I'm sure there are bound to be minor plotholes somewhere. Though, the point still stands that there is surprisingly little, if anything, that feels like it can't be explained at all. Nearly everything that Toby added to the game seemed like it went through several iterations of making sure it fit neatly with the rest of the lore. Especially with a team of several people working on Deltarune with him, it's hard to see how anything in it can or really should be dismissed as "probably just a mistake".
"Small factoid"
*O H B O Y*
My favourite thing is that it seems heavily implied that the soul Kris is repeatedly ripping out of themselves is in fact not their own, but the soul of the player. Thus we can't entirely rule out determination being linked to the soul, as Kris could be generating determination from their own, actual soul (assuming they have one) but ultimately this has little relevance to the rest of this amazingly well done video, buuuut its a factoid of decent importance I feel a surprisingly large amount of people either forget or intentionally omit.
True. If it's not obvious, Kris genuinely having multiple souls wasn't really something on my mind until half this video's comments started arguing for it. The player and Kris having separate souls would have some weird implications in relation to Undertale, where Frisk's soul _might_ be literally theirs, and _might_ also be a metaphor for the player's power, but there was at least never any question of their being _more than one soul._ However it's not unreasonable to consider the possibility. (To clarity, the alternative assumption that I've been operating under is that Kris and the the player effectively share the soul, such that in order to remove the player's influence, Kris must literally become soulless)
Didn't some interaction in Chapter 1 (IIRC with a mirror) depict Kris as "One human soul inside one human body", thus making Kris a soulless vessel? Given what is happening when you complete Undertale (and as Toby said in his anouncing tweets back then Deltarune is first and foremost for those who *completed* Undertale) it gives me some unnerving vibes.
@@Barmaglott17 Damn that sure would make arguing with people in the comments a lot easier if it was true. I'm going to go hunt for it briefly. It's just narration when you check on a mirror, then?
Edit: If it exists, it's not in the chapter 1 language file. There was some similar text about Kris being "a human body that contains a human soul", which I think would show at the top of the party menu before you unlock the title of Bed Inspector and such. Doesn't specify _only_ one soul though, inconveniently.
One idea I've been thinking of is that since Kris is referred to as something of a "school zombie" and the way he moves without the soul being all slow and undead-like, whatever incident (probably dark world related) that lead to Dess disappearing probably damaged Kris' soul someway,(which probably also happens to Berdly in snowgrave since his body is there in the light world but his mind seemingly isn't)and someway, something,probably Gaster,replaced it with the vessel's soul.
@@andrew_cunningham I believe the latter idea is more accurate. If Kris was in possession of multiple souls, why would they go out of their way to put the player's soul back in? On top of that, Kris has a staggered, lurching gait that implies a significant amount of effort (Determination?) going into the mere act of moving around. No wonder the poor kid is exhausted the next day, that sounds like it'd take a lot of energy to do. I believe it's Kris's soul, and unless you're a creature that doesn't naturally have one, you *probably* need to hold onto it.
Gaster “fell into his creation”.
Gaster was trying to create something to do with darkness (“darker, yet darker”).
If this theory holds any weight, Deltarune will be a metatextual analysis on creating fiction (specifically video games).
Gaster (or at least Another Him, who can’t not be Gaster) certainly plays the role of an omnipresent creator of the game of Deltarune.
Gaster literally announced Deltarune on Twitter.
Gaster “fell into his creation” and is very present within Deltarune.
Very, very interesting.
Gaster is toby's alter ego. while toby created his own dark world (undertale), Gaster on the other side created something and fell into it (real world).
@@MeMM00 so Toby Fox's Dark World appearance is Gaster? lol
Kris seems to survive without a soul, and I think this is important. The only possibility I can think of is a flowey scenario, Kris is held together by sheer Determination. Perhaps, I'm really just rambling here, what you get when you take the lid off a human and fill it to the brim with Determination, you get enough to control 3 separate timelines. The 3 save files aren't just a game mechanic, that's for sure. There's different dialogue for each file in asriel's drawer, each saying it contains a different high school related item.
I just finished watching, so I'm editing this to say I LOVE the fiction interpretation. The idea that Toby's gonna throw in something about, maybe all the content Undertale inspired, or his own humble beginnings making rom hacks, is so obvious now. Thanks, you made me hyped for something that's coming out when I graduate college
Does not Frisk do the same, in a way?
Giving Chara the soul is an option. Though they also share a body, so it’s probably handwaved away that way on their part
@@azzythechristianfurry my memory might be fuzzy, but isn't this after chara kills you/frisk/presumably both? You know, after the ten minute wait or whatever? I'd say it's reasonable to assume there wasn't a place for Frisk to respawn after the world was destroyed, so maybe it's just about YOUR soul, purely the player, Frisk is already dead. Not to mention how Chara clarifies the difference between the two shortly before this.
@@pokkiheart
I mean in a soulless post pacifist ending, but that is also true.
Your editing is top notch, and your ability to pick out specific scenes for visual gags to go along with the script is crazy. I also learned some new obscure *lore*, like Flowey getting 6 saves for 6 souls. 10/10
Also come to think of it, the whole "3 saves because 3 souls" thing funnily enough might actually have legs to stand on... Kris, Ralsei, and Susie all take damage when your soul gets hit, so it's 3 entities tied to one soul. Food for thought.
As for your take on "Determination = creating fiction, which is a method of escapism" I feel like that's pretty much exactly correct. It's even similar to Omori, which toby alluded to when he mentioned someone was making a game very similar to an idea he had (this was a tweet from before omori and deltarune were released)
Shit, I had no idea Toby said that. Super cool to know- I had that exact thought myself after playing Omori. If that's actually how Toby sees it, then he's got some stiff competition within the "sad teen explores secretly sinister, suspiciously Earthbound-inspired dreamworld" subgenre. Btw check the pinned comment for my thoughts on Kris having 3 souls.
the quirky earthbound inspired rpg that's actually about depression
More proof I think can be used for the escapist theme going on is that so far the worlds we visited are based off of common items we use to “escape” from reality, the first world was toys and games, the second was the internet, and the third world seems to be leading up to be a TV themed world from what we can see with the Mike character so far.
megamss --- but what will be the fourth one and onwards?
@@falendemo546 Hmm maybe the church is next? Like relying to much to a religion and handing over your life to God so you can escape the world (or problems) thinking that God will take care of it for you
I like to think that Light represents Reality, while Darkness represents Imagination.
With the powers of the Knight, one is capable of-by using determination-ripping open holes in reality, turning a controlled portion of it into a world of imagination, non-fiction, where the rules of the universe are bent and twisted.
As for the Titans being unleashed, that may be tied to some things. First of all, it could represent reality crashing down upon those who disconnect from it entirely; Without an anchor point, the ideas you make start to lose their charm, and your mental health can decline rapidly.
Another representation is that the Titans are possibly the culmination/manifestions of inner demons, sealed away by truth and goodwill. Without the ability to face the truth, deceits and nihilism may cause these nightmares to be made real, overshadowing the Darkners and causing the Lightners to lose sight of what they want in life. After all, if everything can just be given to you, then where’s the fun in it? Can you have desires or goals if you accomplish nothing in the process? Faced no hardships? Learned not a single lesson on the way?
Ok, but deadass,this video hits deep with the idea that the dark world is a mode of escapism. Rarely have seen others make the connection, but it just makes sense. but also I think deltarune is a commentary about creativity in itself. Like the dark world being the way where (at least now) susie and noelle are making a more personal connection with each other, or berdley just being a redditor, it feels toby is somehow using undertale esq elements to tell a story about fandom or smth. Ifk just brain vomiting
Sound right
After defeating the Queen, Noelle literally says something like "isn't this world much better than our own? A place where everything can be healed with a simple spell!"
@@kevinm5940 And it seems like everyone would agree. Except Ralsei.
berdley being a redditor is key to the core message of Deltarune
@prowlinality I was so really for saying that 2 years ago
I feel like determination was hidden because in Undertale it was meant to give the idea of you having the power to decide. It makes you more powerful. In Undertale people cared whether you did those things and they took note. In deltarune, there's still sans, but he doesn't care.
Determination was a word that made you feel powerful.
“I look forward to creating a new future with you” just made so much more sense after this video. Now I truly understand its meaning.
*He* wasn’t solely responsible for creating the world of Deltarune. Our determination was needed to bring it forth into existence.
*I guess the future of this world really is in our hands.*
7:09 one of the save points mentions “a certain power” shining within you. It could mean determination, could mean something else. Either way, I think it’s worth noting.
That's one of the final save points before the Queen battles too, so I do think that the line was meant to allude to Determination before you see Queen talking about it.
i mean it's directly in front of a huge pair of legs and kris may as well be pansexual so i think it's alluding to.. something else
8:29 Speculation: There might be only 3 saves of Deltarune because there are three heroes of light. Not only that, the "titans" in the prophecy Ralsei told have 3 save points in them. Could we send each hero of the prophecy to defeat one titan to recover the save files in chapter 6 and 7? I mean the SOUL is able to monitor Susie's perspective so why not with Ralsei as well. I know ch6 and 7 are endgame stuff but I just think it is a fun speculation.
Okay, when you said 3 saves = 3 souls this made me think about something, and if anyone would like to discuss or refute this claim I would like to hear about it.
This has to do with the "Weird Route" so, I'll post this down below in case of spoilers.
Kris is clearly there in his own body, we know this because the reactions they give are not bland or one-dimensional but belonging to an individual with reason and personality. Kris smiles at Suzie's joke, screams when we say we are not okay, jumps in the way to block the attack from further injuring Suzie, and many other more subtle nuances.
Here's the thing, though. They clearly are also fully aware of the Weird route. Suzie points out that we look weird, and we are clearly more in control here than any other moment since our voice is actually able to reach Noelle despite Kris not being awake. Thus... why would KRIS want to go further into Dark world stuff when we literally used them to kill someone? Torture an old friend until their mind shattered and cornered them in a hospital in tears and screams? Why would Kris, who clearly was calling out to his friends for help, want to go further when WE forced Noelle to summon forth a cold death?
I feel like any SANE person would have said "I don't want to play this game anymore," and yet they actually open up the portal regardless.
I actually had a hypothesis that there WERE 3 souls in Kris. One is you, the other is Kris. Both of you are attached to the soul, and there's a THIRD presence actually opening up Dark-world portals using Kris as a conduit. Maybe not a third soul, per-say, but a third entity in general. I'm not going to scream "It's Chara it has to be!" or anything stupid because I feel like that actually takes away from the mystery and honestly comes off as lacking creativity-which this game has done anything but.
Though it does seem like something to look into, or at the very least keep an eye on.
Definitely the best case for the "Triple Soul Matryoshka Meme Kris" interpretation I've seen so far. The snowgrave route, I have to admit, didn't really figure into my logic at all. This strikes me as food for thought, but _tenuous_ food. Kris being willing to create more dark worlds after a snowgrave incident is definitely an anomaly, but very weak grounds for specifically jumping toward a "third party" somehow having influence. In general there's a lot to digest in regards to Kris and their fucked-up soul, but that wasn't the topic of the video so I avoided thinking about it too hard lol
Btw, is it controversial to assume Kris is basically just the alternate-universe version Chara? It never occurred to me to even wonder whether Chara might somehow be hiding inside Kris (as is their habit) because I've been operating under the assumption that they're the same person.
@@andrew_cunningham All of the other characters have alternate universe counterparts, I don't see why Chara would be different.
Chara could be named literally anything, so them being named Kris doesn't matter. They're Asriel's sibling, and they have a very similar appearance.
@@andrew_cunningham One thing to note is that the presence of multiple save files goes very well with the multiple routes; I don't know about you guys, but I'm definitely keeping a file for my normal playthrough and one for my Weird/Genocide/Snowgrave/Whatever playthrough. Of course, there were multiple routes in the first game, but the segmentation of Deltarune into multiple chapters lends it a seriality that would necessitate multiple saves for multiple routes, since you can't really *complete* a route yet.
What does this imply in regards to saving having any in-text meaning or link to determination? I have no clue, but it would certainly align the best with the idea that the multiple slots are primarily a convenience that Toby is mercifully letting us have.
@@andrew_cunningham the ages might not match up, Chara and Asriel were much older than Frisk, who was the same age as Monster Kid, but in this universe Kris is also as old as monster Kid and younger than Asriel. Kris is probably not alternate Frisk per se, given their designs, but at least age wise they match up better than Chara and Kris.
@@MrHinchapelotas Damn, that's a blast from the past. The very first "theory" I put together after finishing chapter 1 was drawing up a conspiracy corkboard for all the inconsistencies in character age. But that mostly creates problems with the age of the Dreemurr family relative to the rest of the cast, not within the Dreemurr family itself. Asriel is much younger than he should be compared to Undyne, Monster Kid, etc, but Kris is still the same age relative to him as Chara would have been to Asriel in Undertale. Kris being Chara makes just as much sense chronologically as Asriel being Asriel.
It’s hilarious that the reason Undyne is able to produce determination and basically become an unstoppable force against evil is most likely because of shonen cliches
5:14 that's just what the Queen thinks, she herself said she doesn't know everything was just guessing based on the Knight's actions
Something you didn't mention is that save point in deltarune only appear in dark worlds. As far as we know the light world doesn't have any (which would've been very useful in chapter 1). So they might still be tied to determination in a way since dark worlds are created by determination.
I bet you the mysterious guy the games talking to is going to be anyone *but* gaster.
Toby is intentionally leading all dedicated fans and their gaster speculations off a cliff, specifically the one where the gauntlet of deadly terror by papyrus is. Hinting at Gaster and leaving hints only to say that it was someone who also fit the description that the hints lead to.
I would find few things in the world more hilarious than this outcome, but even as a staunch Gaster non-enthusiast I have to say it's pretty unlikely. Going down that road would mean Toby straying into the territory of sabotaging his own narrative to troll his fans. However funny it would be, setting up a breadcrumb trail for literal years, then integrating that breadcrumb trail into a project that will likely consume a decade of your life, and _then_ revealing at the last moment that the whole thing leads into a brick wall... it goes beyond the bounds of human sanity.
Sanity is for nerds
I would agree with you, if it weren't for the presence of Gaster's theme all over deltarune. Toby does seem to take his leitmotifs seriously. Toby is obviously setting up something with gaster, as to the importance, scale, and nature of this thing; it has yet to be revealed.
@@andrew_cunningham Absolutely. "Another Him", the number 666 for the type font in the intro, and the way Toby acted as Gaster on Twitter makes it undeniable that Gaster will be involved in some way. Even if he's not related to the Dark Worlds, or Kris' alternate identity, he will definitely show up eventually.
@@uppishcub1617 Is it Gaster's theme though? The Leitmotif in Undertale is only 4 notes long, but "Another Him" has a leitmotif of 5 notes. Even if it's the same 4 notes, the final note is still separate. Knowing Toby, that wouldn't make it impossible to be a separate person, even if they're still somewhat related to Gaster.
8:10- 8:17
Wow thats a great point!!!
I never bothered to question why Flowey saved file 6 and if that had any relation to him having 6 souls at that point!
👏👏👏 Bravo my friend, this information fully surprised me.
8:42
Btw if you check Asriels drawer in different save files in Chapter 1 it has different things inside. This may mean that these are 3 separate timelines whit small differences between them.
13:55
Yea i agree . I think the Dark Worlds are a metaphor for Escapism.
But I'm sure they also have some grander in-universe reason for being what they are. Like in Undertale how Saving and Loading are more than what they represent to us.
Btw!! One very huge point that i think no one has addressed is that in Undertale the ,, DeltaRune" is the Dreemurr family crest and we can also see it in Kris's home in their room so its possible its the same in ,, Deltarune".
Also in Undertale Asgore is the king and in Neutral ending after he dies Undyne takes over his role and in Deltarune Undyne is a Cop that has taken over the position after Asgore was released from the force by the Mayor (prosumably because of the death of Noelles sister ,,Dessember" ).
Is it possible that UNDERTALE is a Dark World made up by a younger Kris projecting the world around them into an unfinished game(in chapter 2 on their computer there is a game in which the last boss is a creature whit rainbow wings- AKA Asriels ultimate form).
I'd have to add that Kris in fact - didn't know Sans or Papyrus for that matter before the events of Deltarune.
So Undertale being set in the past and created by Kris probably doesn't make that much sense anymore.
Your method of quickly presenting information is amazing, and you give actual analysis. A lot of undertale/deltarune analysis videos or writeups aren't actually attempting to apply a lens, yours is a real and sophisticated analysis. Also, the video is hilarious. Can't wait to see where this channel goes!!
I wonder what the idea of "being lost in a fictional world" would imply about 2 profecy that Ralsei gives closer to the end. There are shapes that resemble save points in the design of titans.
13:15 That’s a funny way to pronounce “Best character in the game”
In all seriousness, this was an interesting and fascinating video to watch, I never thought of the Dark Fountains in such a context. Big brained shit
3:08 Dying against Asriel _does_ rewind you a bit, actually.
nice pfp
@@RichConnerGMN thx
1:03 why’d that gaster scare the shit out of me
About the 3 save files thing.. maybe its 3 save files for all 3 party members, since that one soul controls all 3 in combat, who's to say the same isn't true for the save files? Which would make the whole "only 3 people can be in the party at a time" thing make sense, and also it would perfectly go hand in hand with the "Ralsei is a lightener" theory
I believe one way DELTARUNE is re-exploring the concept of determination is through it’s connection to two other concepts-hopes and dreams. These two concepts were briefly mentioned at the beginning of the game during Ralsei’s prophecy, being associated with light and dark respectively.
During our fight with Asriel in UNDERTALE, we were able to use our determination to create Last Dreams that restore our health. DR mirrors this by having determination be what is required in order to create Dark Fountains, which, in turn, create the incredibly dream-like Dark Worlds.
It is also during our fight with Asriel that we were able to use our determination to hold onto our hopes and the reduce the damage that we take that turn. In DR it is possible that hope may be the force behind the light that each Lightner is said to possess, and that Kris uses to SAVE. It should also be noted that Gaster said that DELTARUNE was “shining brightly from our hope” in the lead-up to the release of Chapter 2.
The description for the "Last Dream" item in UNDERTALE seems to imply that this Dream is the real purpose of Determination, or at least Frisk's Determination:
"The goal of "Determination."
Since this healing item is able to be created by Frisk during the Asriel Dreemurr battle, seemingly by Determination alone, that also shows how someone with enough of the substance can create something out of nothing but their own will.
@@Solibrae determination is literally "the stuff dreams are made of"
The one tweak I would make is rewording "Creating Fiction" into "Writing Stories" but other than that I can definitely see Toby going in this direction. Stories, much like the Dark Worlds, host a variety of characters and events, and can bring joy or a new perspective to those who indulge in them, but they'll always have to end at some point. Trying to force a story to continue for too long in your head, or going through too many stories at the same time, can risk a psychological or emotional version of the Roaring, where the stories tower above all else in your eyes, yet the characters fell as lifeless as statues or lines of numbers, leaving you feeling lost and alone even when friends and family are there for you. But even if the stories have to end, the characters can live on in the imaginations of our personal stories.
damn this guy really came out of nowhere and made one of the best undertale/deltatune video essays in 6 years king shit
This is very well made speculation. Still waiting for the TOP 100 PIPIS
1) it was top 600
2) there is no need to wait, just get me the 40,000,000 likes
@@andrew_cunningham too low,it would take the skill of the entire world. Prob 69.000.000.000.420.000 likes
1. 🔵
2. 🔵
3. 🔵
4. 🔵
5. 🔵
6. 🔵
7. 🔵
8. 🔵
9. 🔵
10. 🔵
11. 🔵
12. 🔵
13. 🔵
14. 🔵
15. 🔵
16. 🔵
17. 🔵
18. 🔵
19. 🔵
20. 🔵
21. 🔵
22. 🔵
23. 🔵
24. 🔵
25. 🔵
26. 🔵
27. 🔵
28. 🔵
29. 🔵
30. 🔵
31. 🔵
32. 🔵
33. 🔵
34. 🔵
35. 🔵
36. 🔵
37. 🔵
38. 🔵
39. 🔵
40. 🔵
41. 🔵
42. 🔵
43. 🔵
44. 🔵
45. 🔵
46. 🔵
47. 🔵
48. 🔵
49. 🔵
50. 🔵
51. 🔵
52. 🔵
53. 🔵
54. 🔵
55. 🔵
56. 🔵
57. 🔵
58. 🔵
59. 🔵
60. 🔵
61. 🔵
62. 🔵
63. 🔵
64. 🔵
65. 🔵
66. 🔵
67. 🔵
68. 🔵
69. 🔵
70. 🔵
71. 🔵
72. 🔵
73. 🔵
74. 🔵
75. 🔵
76. 🔵
77. 🔵
78. 🔵
79. 🔵
80. 🔵
81. 🔵
82. 🔵
83. 🔵
84. 🔵
85. 🔵
86. 🔵
87. 🔵
88. 🔵
89. 🔵
90. 🔵
91. 🔵
92. 🔵
93. 🔵
94. 🔵
95. 🔵
96. 🔵
97. 🔵
98. 🔵
99. 🔴🎀
100.🔵
@@ter157ian8 holy shit ms pipis
@@starless267 number 99
You are extremely good at finding deltarune/undertale gameplay that fits what you’re currently talking about. like to an exact. specific I know but it impressed me
Glad that you noticed, since that's the most time-consuming part of editing. Aside from getting the default-dancing Sans's to scroll properly in the outro, of course.
That style change at the start of the video actually got me, your comedic timing fits so well with Toby Fox’s work
“No-life uberfans”
HEY HEY HES TALKING ABOUT MEEEEEEE
Ye me 2
12:19 my computer blue screened. I thought it was a gag, but no, computer just decided to blue screen at that very moment... what did I piss off to deserve this?
Me
I thank you for bringing up determination, I have seen no one really talk about this which I think is absurd as I feel it was the biggest thing in Deltarune. I also appreciate you bringing up Kris making the fountain without the determination soul. It annoys me that no one cares, everyone is just like "omg spamton and snowgrave" shush we need to talk about important things.
This guy gets it. This guy knows what's up.
@@andrew_cunningham I’m just glad some people think what I think, it’s crazy how many things people are overlooking.
Dude there are other important things in dr other than determination, you sound like someone who likes to cling to UT stuff when we have all this cool dr stuff.
I wonder if Toby knows he has shaped my life since childhood to now
For 7:55 i think the reason why kris has 3 save slots instead of 1, is because the player/soul can control or is *mainly* related to 3 characters. Like when the player/soul gets hit, the entire party gets hit too. Still there are holes in this theory like, "why doesn't the save slots decrease when you're with Noelle or when you're alone", "Why when Noelle, Berdly and sometimes Starwalker joins the team, the save slots doesn't increase" and theres more examples too. But maybe the save slots stay the same is because, Kris, Susie and Ralsei are commonly together. Btw i think that if u have a soul it doesn't mean that u can just save, it probably needs some determination too. That also explains why Flowey was able to use 6 save files, bcs iirc he got injected with determination.
*TL;DR: The player has 3 files maybe because it has 3 main characters*
Or i'm just overthinking and Toby has a comedic explanation for this
oh yeah, inject that sweet, sweet lore analysis straight into my veins. that's the stuff.
COMPLETELY underrated c: I love how well your writing style is established, you really stand out from all the other youtubers I watch!! And I especially love the attention to detail of playing certain clips that match with audio cues, it makes it very entertaining to watch! Can't wait to see more of your videos in the future c:
The style kinda reminds me of mossbag
"Create fiction" is a solid take to a question i wasn't aware of. It makes sense. Move the meta up a layer.
The layers of complexity to this are baffling and your speculation explains nearly everything. Especially the pt of chap 2 where, in order to populate the dark world you have to collect all the junk from the other room.
In game, the world is both real and artifical. Experienced by all main characters of the game.
The only thing above that is the player and the creator.
Is Fox becoming the Charlie Kaufman of video games?
YOUR "Tutorial in his DNA Toriel" line LITERALLY JUST MADE HER NAME MAKE SENSE. I CANT BELIEVE I NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!!!!
7:40: The last thing I want Deltarune to be is some kind of direct continuation of Undertale's story, so its nice to see someone else think so lowly of determination secretly just being the same thing as in Undertale. Also good to see a plausible theory on what the game is about that isn't "GuYs ChArA aNd GaSteR hAvE CoMe tO a NeW UniVerSe fOr ThEiR crAzY ExPeRiMenT!!!!!1!!1!!!"
To put it lightly, the potential relationship between _Gaster and Chara_ wasn't exactly on the forefront of my mind until I started reading this video's comments. Little did I know, it's obvious to everyone else on the planet that they're best friends and probably meet for coffee on weekends to trade souls they've collected from multiversal genocide timelines.
fun fact: Deltarune was something Toby planned to make since 2014-2015
Technically as far back as 2011, since that was when he experienced such a vivid fever dream that he knew that he needed to make it into a game.
@@mrperson4542 yeah I was a bit off, Just trying to play it safe with the date though, but it is a cool and funny thing to know that Deltarune is the original well Undertale is the AU, technically at least
Actually, deltarune was planning to be added in undertale after true Pacifist ending. Im glad toby didnt add it to Undertale. Instead, he made a new game with A NEW STORY THAT DONT HAVE ANY CONNECTIONS TO UNDERTALE AT ALL.
@@hugo_the_waffleGot a source for this? I’ve literally never heard about this
@@mrperson4542 Im sorry. I dont have the source.
Gotta say, the part where you talk as ralsei tutorial cutsey voice. Was soo precious! :')
11:20 while the veil was still up before your reveal of "create fiction," there was another alternative that was the only thing screaming at me. instead of letting the player "Save/Load," determination in deltarune felt like a textual representation of beginning a "New Game," creating an entire world in each chapter for the characters to live their lives through. though "creating fiction" really is just another way of saying the same thing :P
cool video, its good to finally see someone recognize the relation between the meta narrative and the gameplay mechanics in undertale. Most theories just completely ignore that. Talking about meta-narrative, that seems like this game's might involve the concept of control and freedom, or the lack of it, in fiction. If you've ever payed stanley parable, its entire theme is this. Its a game about choice, where the ultimate reveal is that there is no real choice, all of the things you do are scripted, written before you ever pick up the game. The only real choice you have is to quit the game.
I feel like deltarune may be trying to cover this theme of freedom in fiction. Think about the fact that both of the secret bosses are constantly speaking about freedom, but one, Jevil, is literally locked in a cage; while the other, Spamton, is nothing more than a puppet. Even the player is beat over the head with the idea that your choices don't matter, with all of that from Susie, the lack of any genocide route or pacifist route, Toby openly telling the fans that there will only be one ending. Even the player, the supposed puppet master controlling Kris, Doesn't have any real on meaningful choices throughout the game.
You may point out the snowgrave route as a direct contradiction to this theory, but I think its the exception that proves the rule. Snowgrave appears in chapter 2. Long after players have completed chapter 1, and know about the twitter AMA that says there will be only one ending. This has left the player desperate, practically fiending to get a real choice, to set himself free so to speak. This leads to player depserate grasping at straws, trying everything he can, just to cause some sort of change. Finally, an opportunity presents itself, if you backtrack after getting Noelle, and exclusively use ice shock. The player seeing this chance, takes it. He grinds through killing every enemy, driving Noelle to do more and more depraved things, even having a countdown of how many enemies are left to kill from spamton.
Now where have we seen that before? Its a direct callback to the genocide route in undertale. The genocide route itself had the meta-narrative of criticizing the player for all of the terrible and evil things he does in his quest to fully complete the game. In most playthroughs, the player will complete the pacifist route first, and then, being desperate for more, will turn to the genocide route just to get that little bit more out of the game. This time, in deltarune, there are no multiple endings, so there's not reason to be a completionist, but there is another desire, the desire to be free, to escape the narrowly defined railroad that is the game's narrative. This also reminds me of someone else, the secret bosses. Both of them do terrible things in their quest for freedom. Jevil terrorizes the card kingdom, while Spamton sold you the thorn ring specifically so you could kill all of the darkners in the city, giving him the chance to take the NEO body. Speaking on Spamton, during the snowgrave route he recognizes what you're doing and knows why you're doing it. Even when he fights you, he doesn't hate what you for what you've done, he's only fighting for selfish reasons. He even acknowledges that you are on the path to getting freedom. However, I think that, just like in undertale, your quest to satiate your desires will leave you unsatisfied. You will not get anything you wanted from your freedom other than a broken world that now can't end properly. Just like any other game when you do something you weren't intended to do, it doesn't give you a new ending, it just breaks the game.
In the end it may be revealed that no one is really in control in the game, except for the game's creator himself. Toby does have a character inside the game, and so does Temmie. Temmie's character actually has dialogue related secret room easter eggs, hinting that there may be more to her than just the silly character you've seen so far. Both of them do seem to be playing much more major roles than they did in undertale. There was that line from the true lab entries "what do you two think?" that could Temmie and the annoying Dog.
This is all just speculation of course, and a lot of it will likely become outdated when the next chapter releases, but its still something interesting to think about. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk
If we take the product of length and coherency, I think this is the heftiest comment so far. Conglaturation. I think that Deltarune's preoccupation with freedom and will is getting very hard to deny at this point, and you've put together a very solid interpretation here for how it all fits together. Describing the snowgrave route as a desperate attempt to _force_ Deltarune into having the narrative freedom of its predecessor is a very interesting take, too, though I dearly hope that Temmie and the annoying dog don't actually end up becoming relevant to the plot. One of my favourite things about Toby Fox is that he isn't Andrew Hussie, and that's a move that would blur the line.
@@andrew_cunningham I agree that the dev insert plot line does seem very pretentious. It sounded a lot cooler in my head.
of course another character could fill the role of the creator and said character would just act as the narrative stand in for Toby and the other devs, still pushing the narrative that only the creator of the story is the one with true freedom. Maybe gaster, Maybe someone else.
Alternatively , maybe the game would go in another direction. After all Undertale did actually receive a lot of input from fans. With it being a kickstarter game, and even having some of the game's secondary bosses being OCs from backers. Deltarune itself was only really made possible by the wild success of undertale, without it, Toby wouldn't have had the money to afford to hire a team to assist with its development, or the influence to find all of the talented developers to work on it. Even if deltarune were still made, it would be an entirely different animal than it exists as today.
Maybe the ending would instead encourage the player to go out and tell his own story. To create something of his own, so he can truly have freedom and control. If that were the case, then both routes would essentially communicate the same message, and lead to the same ending. One telling the player, who is obviously desperate for freedom, that he can have it, if he makes his own story, instead of trying to break this one. The other one, would be less meta and would probably communicate the same basic message, but with an added extra meaning in the context of the main plot.
Also I humbly accept your conglaturation, and apologize for any eye strain my youtube comment novels may cause.
This comment right here. This comment is underrated. My only gripe with this theory is that it's a concept that we have seen before.
That's a really good video! I liked the theory, the humor, the editing. Hope we see more like this!
The bravest part of this video was admitting that undertale has small plot holes like "essence".
I can roast Undertale until the sun goes down and It'll still be my favourite game. I see no danger in pointing out its flaws.
Bro I absolutely appreciate that tonal hard cut in the opening bit, I am sooooo sick of so many video essays being *needlessly* sentimental
Lancer busting on the seams made me grin so Fucking big and the editing only continued to keep the momentum going while keeping my attention
10/10 editing super job
11:00 the comedic timing of this moment is beyond words
One thing I want to point out:Never is it stated that all lightners have the same amount of determination, only that they can create fountains. It's more than possible that the little amount of determination monsters have in undertale is sufficient to open a dark fountain, and that darkners have even less, or none at all, given that they basically exist to be with lightners.
I would even go so far as to suggest that that lack of determination may be what causes darkners to turn into objects when not under the effects of a dark fountain, like Lancer and Rouxls being playing cards, and Ralsei potentially being Kris' old red horned headband.
can't wait for the 600 pipis ranking of snowgrave. so excited
There's a certain kind of irony in the idea of Toby making a game about worlds that develop lives of their own beyond what their creator ever imagined.
Because, like, that's what actually happened, isn't it?
oh i love the bait and switch with the Jacob Geller-style introduction
It's weirdly flattering how multiple people have read that intro as a Jacob Geller parody. Personally I'd give Jacob a bit more credit but... it's really funny to me anyway.
Beautifully produced video essay my guy, can't wait to see more from you in the future!
Very kind of you, but I hope you don't actually mean the part about "not being able to wait". I have no idea if or when I'll be able to justify throwing weeks of my life at something like this again. I do have much, much more I could say about Deltarune though, have _no_ doubt about that... so we'll see.
@@andrew_cunningham Oh my bad, definitely do NOT force yourself to make another video if you don't want to. I just really liked the thorough analysis, quality editing, and funny gags throughout the entire video. Take your time and take care of yourself!
@@Thumbednail lmao I made that comment when this video had like 200 views. Hell if I'm not following this up with something now.
@@andrew_cunningham Lol, how quickly things change. Did you just gain like 3,000 subscribers?
@@Thumbednail Yes. Waiting for youtube to give me community post access so I can announce the fact that I'm making a second video.
i love the fakeout with your shy voice into talking so confidently
Remember when Andrew was unsure of whether he would make any more videos?
Glad we're in the good timeline
wow, I love finding hidden gems like this! Your editing? God like, your voice? Soothing your comedic pacing stellar, you earned yourself A subscriber and I cant wait for more! Thank you for posting this
cant wait to see you become a [BIGSHOT]
Toby Fox made the entire plot, score, and programming of both deltarune and UNDERTALE all by himself, which is beyond amazing, because the story and lore is immensely well-written (if the existence of the speculation community isn’t enough to tell you that), the soundtracks are both meaningful when used to aid the storytelling but many songs are fucking bops (don’t tell me that A CYBER’S WORLD didn’t blow you away when you first heard it and my god Toby didn’t need to give Berdly a banger battle theme but he did anyways), and if you’re experience with any amount of coding you would know that make a full game the size that UNDERTALE and deltarune are is a monumental task.
What I’m trying to say is that Toby is a trooper and a blessing in this world that all of us should respect
He didn’t compose, write, or program by himself, at least half a dozen people helped with the game including Lena raine, Shawn spawlding, and others
@@snesmocha He at least did everything for UNDERTALE. Temmie Chang did most of the art for UNDERTALE but besides that it was a one-man project. He does have a “team” working with him for deltarune now but that doesn’t change the fact that 1: he composes the vast majority of the songs 2: he writes the entire story and 3: he basically acts like the director for everything. Toby says so himself that jobs that should be handled by multiple teams of people are all handled by him. So yeah, don’t be nitpicky unless if you’re going to disagree on the fact that Toby is an amazing human being
@@momsaccount4033 Not going further, since his physical body can no longer keep up with the needs of game dev
Man can't even type anymore it's that bad
@@TechBlade9000 Yeah I did remember seeing him mention how he had to use a track ball mouse and couldn’t use his hand much in a deltarune update a while before Chapter 2 came out. Everything said, the point of my original comment was to just give my appreciation towards the amazing creative mind that is Toby Fox
The theory of Dark Worlds being nothing bit a fictional world is the same theory I had back when Chapter 1 released. You good sir just made that theory make so much more sense, it all just fits and works when you think about it. Great video!
12:40 in an interview, toby said that he wanted to make sure there was a "loneliness feeling" in undertale
th-cam.com/video/f5WGH6GsB6Q/w-d-xo.html
I think you may be getting hit by the algorithm real soon. Good luck and godspeed sir.
I really enjoyed this analysis. It’s almost hard to believe this id your first ever one.
Also I really the ‘essay clear!’ Piece of editing on your outro.
If you do choose to continue making content, this has been an excellent start.
Thank you Andrew Cunnilingus very well thought out and well edited video I look forward to whatever content you choose to upload next
honestly love this video essay format it’s so goofy but still provides well thought out, backed up information and theories, i’d love to see more videos like this :)
There's probably 2 forms of determination, human determination and universal determination, the latter of which wasn't discovered in Undertale...
As for the 3 files, either one belongs to susie and Ralsei... or save files aren't per soul, but per determination source, 1 is the soul, the second kris themself, and third... the player, the fellow behind the screen...
Or maybe all the souls in Undertale were young, and as humans age, if their determination isn't smothered out by then, their powers to save and load increase granting more save files, as Kris might be much older than frisk and far more determined... Also helping to kill and burn any theories of them being the same world or some jazz as frisk wouldn't be able to save or load while Kris exists...
It should be kept in mind, you can only save in the dark world, there are no save files in the overworld, no bright golden stars to record your progress, perhaps to lessen the confusion of having to put 2 save systems in one game? Or perhaps because Kris lacks enough determination to save in the real world but 3x enough to save in the dark world...
Uhmmmm just wanna say this video is incredibly good for it being your first of the kind. You sounded pretty natural reading from your script and the editing was great. High-quality stuff~
also very good points hoo boy, much to think about
my headcanon about undertale’s determination is that the barrier leaves the timeline of the underground sort of isolated from the outside. a mountain-sized schrödinger’s box, if you will. this means that a human with enough determination can control the enter timeline of the underground, while it would take an unfathomable amount of power to do the same anywhere else. it also explains why asriel could apparently destroy the entire world and still only have the power of the 6 human souls that were in the underground at the time.
Man, your editing is very enjoyable. The way you use footage and dialog so connected with what you say makes this all feel so coherent and fluid. Great job.
i literally finished watching this video when you had 800 something subs and at the end, i refreshed and now u have 953. You growing big
Amazing video! But I have some random questions and would like to hear anyone's opinions on it.
First of all who made the first dark fountain? We all know after completing chapter 1 that the dark fountain was in the abandoned classroom. But who made it, was it Kris? And if so, how long had the fountain been there since we got to that world? This things only came to mind now that we know Kris has made a new fountain.
That's definitely a good question, but didn't make it into the video since I was trying my best to keep the script as focused as possible on Determination itself. People seem to fall into two schools of thought from what I've seen. Either you say Kris _is and always was_ the Knight, and that all the dark fountains so far were crated by them (implying that the cutscene at the end of chapter 1 was Kris preparing to open the fountain in the computer lab), or you say that Kris is separate from the Knight, and only creates the fountain at the end of chapter 2 because Queen explained to them how to do it. In either case it's unknown why or when the fountains in the school were made.
My personal hunch is that it was Kris all along, since it's the simplest scenario and puts the most focus on existing characters rather than abstract spookymen that will likely be hidden away in Toby's lore-closet until chapter 7.
Isnt it implied the Fountain in the closet is some sort of natural occuring fountain? Ralsei himself says the fountain os made of pure and so any Darkner can safetly live there, which also means Ralsei will always be compatible in other Dark Worlds, unlike other Darkners who seem to have a risk of not being compatible and thus turning into stone
Ralsei mentions he "summoned" Kris and Susie, so its possible the dark world isnt precsively located there, nor is it like, constantly opened, either Ralsei opens it for them to go in, or they somehow can just willingly access it
@@andrew_cunningham it’s unlikely that Kris always was the Knight, since it would be ridiculous to believe that a Dark Fountain was created in the computer lab in the middle of the night and nobody noticed it all day until Noelle and Berdly walked in, and then have Noelle and Berdly sit in a dark room with their books open for a significant amount of time without thinking that anything was wrong. The two wouldn’t of even gone in if there was no light since then it would be way more difficult to study, meaning it had to have been made while they were studying. The actual Knight probably hid inside the closet in the lab and sneakily made the fountain without Noelle and Berdly knowing.
this is genuinely one of the most well-made and enjoyable undertale/deltarune analysis videos ive seen in a long time. keep up the great work!!!
please make 1000 more videos like this, I loved this video a lot (and it kinda goes in hand with one of my theories LOL) but keep making videos like this you got a real talent and I can absolutely see this being the answer
I feel like, that you’re making this whole concept of the Power of Determination out as way more complicated than it has to be.
the ending was the best 15:58
I wanna finish all of my essays like that
Awesome first project!! Really enjoy your sense of humor and presentation style. Looking forward to seeing more!
This is crazy well made and written, would love to see more content like this from you