Oak has always been a divisive topic amongst winemakers, drinkers, geeks and aficionados. What bothers me is when someone hangs on to an extreme viewpoint on either side and can't see that, as in life, oak in wine is all about balance. I think many wines benefit from aging in large neutral oak; whether that is the Italian botti, German Fuder, or French demi-muids/foudres. But we have to respect wine drinkers that want the vanilla and toast in their wines and not belittle them; because wine like art is a very subjective thing and personal. I have had some wines aged in acacia barrels and they were very interesting. To get very geeky, there is 3rd type of European oak, Quercus frainetto or Hungarian oak. I find that it gives more weight and texture to wines, but without being overt in many cases. My only strong dislike is when wineries use shortcuts to try to cut costs by using oak staves, chips, etc. If you don't have the financial resources to buy proper oak barrels, stick to stainless steel, concrete or other materials. Great video, informative, detailed and useful for both us geeks and people getting into wine. Cheers!
Thank You for commenting. 🍷 I couldn’t agree with You more, everything, EVERYTHING in wine as in real life should be in balance. The same goes with oak. Thank You for pointing that out. 🍾 Cheers!
That last point about duration is quite interesting. One of my dream wines is called Sandscrub by a hidden gem producer in the Barossa Valley called Rusden. Their latest release is the 2015 vintage, as they do 4 years in oak, and then 4 years in bottle before release. I thought 4 years in oak would add a super intense oak flavour, but the last point about it not necessarily imparting more oak, but better integrating it, is probably something they're aware of there, and makes me even more keen to try!
I was just reading about wood influence on wine yesterday! So I take it this video was made for me! :) Actually there was basically no info in the book I was reading (New Sothebys Wine Encyclopedia), a lot of babbling about some nonsense but basically nothing about the actual infuence of the wood on the taste of the wine. So thank you!
Thank You, what a coincidence?!? 🙌🙌🙌 There actually are not that many books that look closely on this topic, but there was a one chapter in Jamie Goode’s book “Wine Science”. It is an older one, but maybe You can find it, if You are interested in the topic. 🤔
Very nice series. The bottom line is there are so many different ways to make wine and there are so many different palates out there that there is something for everyone. Please keep these videos coming!
Oak is such a funny topic... In general, a lot of casual drinkers like the taste and the roundness it provides. Some grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon really need the roundness and tannin polymerization, otherwise they would be too hard and austere. I find it funny when people get obssessed with time in the barrel (12, 18 months etc)... Anyone that spends time in the cellar realizes that exact numbers like this are difficult as some different lots are ready to drink earlier or later than others and that there are A LOT of barrels to blend - making up the final wine. I often urge fellow wine writers to not be so caught up on this... For my preferences, I find that I prefer reds to be fruitier with less flavors of oak while I am a fan of big, oaky white wines - White Burgundy is often VERYYYY oaky when young. Nice topic that could go on and on and on...
But Chablis is NOT oaked except at the Grand Cru level, tho correct? This helps account for the perceived austerity of Chablis and Chablis Premier Cru in youth.
I am all about the balance. And I think with oak, as with anything else in life really, there are extremes, which are not good. And each wine requires (or don’t) certain amount of oak. And moreover, it is very subjective for each of us. So let’s enjoy what we like the best, and leave a small space for experimentation! 🥰
As far as oak goes, I think it is a necessary component in a serious Cabernet Sauvignon. For me, French Oak adds a depth of sorts to the wine as well as an element or perception of classic, old-school wine-making techniques being used. As far as French Oak goes in a white, this I think is where winemakers have to tread very carefully if they want their wine to be able to express notes such as earth and the soil itself. For me, there is nothing that ruins a Chardonnay faster than the juice sitting in new French Oak or slightly older French Oak as the butteriness and vanilla are very easy to overpower anything else a wine has to offer up. Great information, thanks for the video :)
Thank You for Your comment and insight. 🙏🏻 currently it is a very controversial subject that has even ruined families. Oak!!! 😅 But for me it depends on the wine style. And I definitely don’t mind Chardonnay fermented in oak barrels! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Another great presentation! 👍❤️ Back in the early 2000s, my colleagues and I would frequent a fabulous restaurant and wine bar on the 2nd floor of a historic heritage building near our office on a lively downtown outdoor walking mall. As we ascended the stairs into the main entrance adjacent the bar area we would enter an atmosphere rife with the toast&vanilla&wood scents emanating from the dozens and dozens of large glasses of heavily oaked California & Aus Cabs, Shiraz and Chards that were so popular back in the day. I can still close my eyes and remember those rapturous scents lol I’ll always have fond memories of that place and time and I still prefer a heavily oaked big Shiraz to the more fruit-forward versions that are in style today.
It seems to me that love for the oak is not dead! 🍷 I also think that there some grapes and wine styles that can benefit from oak, and Shiraz, as well as Cabernet Sauvignon are some of those! ✨ Cheers!
I also quite like oak fermented Chardonnay, which I find more Burgundy producers are doing. Shapes wines beautifully and allows fruit to shine. Thank You for Your comment and cheers! ✨🥂
Thank you again for another stellar video with accurate and well constructed content. Oak for me is a very powerful aspect in the final flavor of wine. That being said, the more wines I taste the more I tend to gravitate to those wines which are more expressive of the actual grape and not overpowering the flavors of the wine with heavy oak flavors.
Geek works! Oak belongs, but it has to be well managed and not chips, powders or staves. They tend to overpower in my opinion. I am a fan for certain whites with oak, warm climate Chardonnay, savagnin (dry, not vin jaune), alegote, alvarinho, white Bordeaux, viognier, chenin blanc and roussanne. The wine maker has a lot to choose from for sure. I do like my American oak in my Tempranillo though…..just a classic style. Cheers and thank you for another great video.
From other videos I've watched , oak can be a polarizing subject. With most things, it all comes down to personal preference. If I taste vanilla in a wine, chances are I'm really going to like it.
I’m not a “natural wine” nerd, but until producers disclose their ingredients, does it matter? If it’s not oaky enough, add an additive! That’s why storeshelf plonk tastes like oaky vanilla
I don't mind some oak. I've had a couple wines that tasted like liquefied tree branch. It was not for me. I can do light oak....maybe somewhere in the medium at most.
Same here. I also don’t mind some oak, as long as it is done tastefully and benefits the wine. And there certainly are some great examples out there. 🍾🥂 Cheers!
I began drinking wine regularly in the mid-80’s in San Diego, CA and the most prevalent varieties were Merlot and Chardonnay. And while the movie “Sideways” finally ended my routine consumption of Merlot, it was the ever increasing oakiness of California Chardonnays that ended my relationship with that variety. To this day I avoid California Chardonnay in favor of virtually any other white variety in much the same way as I avoid anything with a strong cherry aroma or flavor because it reminds me of the gross cherry flavored cough syrup my mom would spoon into me as a child when I had a cold. I’m a little better with Chardonnay recently, attempting to find labels that make no mention of oak in an effort to reintroduce Chardonnay into my palate. Only time will tell.
A lot of commercial wineries love to use too much oak, usually in the form of oak chips but one should not avoid Chardonnay all together. There are plenty of wineries that are not using tons of new oak and some may choose to not use at all. In Chablis, Burgundy France, oak is primarily for grand cru wines of which the grape used is Chardonnay. If you like Champagne, you are drinking a sparkling wine that uses Chardonnay in the blend. Now in CA, Matthiasson dose not use new oak for their Chardonnay making it have less oak flavor.
I actually feel very sad about this story, but in all honesty, I have experienced similar disappointments that has shaped my preferences in the future. But I still believe that Chardonnay can be magical if in the right hands. 😋
Well, you expect heavy oak in Spain's rioja and more expensive Bordeaux reds but mostly I want a good balance between tannins and fruit and dislike excessive oak taste
I don't really know my preference. In the cigar world, added flavours are really frowned upon, and I wouldn't want to sully such an excellent product capable of creating so many flavours completely without additives of any kind. Cigars and wine aren't the same, but I do know that some enthusiasts share this sentiment for wine. But until I have the amount of references needed to embrace or reject oak, I'm on the fence. I have a 12 year old Mendoza with 36 months in the barrel and it has a distinct, but also very integrated and soft oak presence. I think it's delicious (and it's only 25 EUR). I think that wine is 90 pts on Wine Searcher, and I feel that maybe it's a good example of a wine that's being slightly looked down upon by a portion of the critics because it's so well rounded and pleasing (of which that long oak aging probably is an important part), because the score spread on it is crazy. If you take the fact that I'm not jaded into consideration and subtract the "haters", I'm getting like a 94pts wine all the way from Argentina with 12 years on it for 25 EUR. That's the very definition of a bargain in my book, but to someone a little more edgy perhaps, it's just a boring, even vulgar wine.
It sounds like a great value. ✨ I myself don’t look at oak as an additive in wine, and historically it has been closely linked with wine evolution. However, maybe at some point it became as a tool that could also shape flavours of wine, but thankfully today it is once again viewed as a vessel to mature and ferment wine! 🙏🏻
Oak-aging is obviously not per definition the best for every wine, but I personally tend to have a slight preference for it. Certainly not for oaky aromas, but oxidative aging IMHO can breathe life into wines. It can makes wines more profound, open and complex. It all sounds a bit vague perhaps, but I often find barrel-aged wines to have more depth. Don't barrel-aged wines tend to age better too? When they've already been exposed to very small amounts of oxygen, aren't they a bit more protected against it?
I remember one of the wine critics I followed, described it as biting an oak plank soaked in wine. 😂😂 But I am trying to not be as critical, if these wines sell well, it means there is a market for them. 😅
For me, the region dictates my view on the use of oak. For Italian wines, I’m big on traditional aging in large barrels using the classic wood. Italy shouldn’t try to imitate France. With French wines, using French oak makes since. It is their oak after. With Spanish wines, I prefer American oak, it is the traditional oak they use to age it and I’m all for traditional winemaking. I don’t have a preference with the type of oak used for New World wine. There is not traditional like Europe has with their winemaking.
Well. It's a bit of cheating, isn't it? Back in the day they probably did it to add tannins, which means a huge increase in longevity. In most countries you are prohibited to add (artificial) flavour compounds (i.e. additives) to wine, but hey! Chuck it in a barrel for a year or so and all of a sudden that is completely different. Whereas chemically speaking it is exactly the same. I say no to that.
It depends, because barrels were used for already centuries ago. Therefore, wine development together with oak barrels. However, it used to be older oak more, which imparts little or no oak flavours. 🤷♀️
The best words I can hear about wine are "let's get geeky" 🙏😌
And right I was 😍 geekier topics are the best
Thank You! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻 You are too kind. But to be completely honest, I love the geeky part of the wine the most. 🍷
Oak has always been a divisive topic amongst winemakers, drinkers, geeks and aficionados. What bothers me is when someone hangs on to an extreme viewpoint on either side and can't see that, as in life, oak in wine is all about balance. I think many wines benefit from aging in large neutral oak; whether that is the Italian botti, German Fuder, or French demi-muids/foudres. But we have to respect wine drinkers that want the vanilla and toast in their wines and not belittle them; because wine like art is a very subjective thing and personal. I have had some wines aged in acacia barrels and they were very interesting.
To get very geeky, there is 3rd type of European oak, Quercus frainetto or Hungarian oak. I find that it gives more weight and texture to wines, but without being overt in many cases. My only strong dislike is when wineries use shortcuts to try to cut costs by using oak staves, chips, etc. If you don't have the financial resources to buy proper oak barrels, stick to stainless steel, concrete or other materials. Great video, informative, detailed and useful for both us geeks and people getting into wine. Cheers!
Thank You for commenting. 🍷 I couldn’t agree with You more, everything, EVERYTHING in wine as in real life should be in balance. The same goes with oak. Thank You for pointing that out. 🍾 Cheers!
"geek" equals engagement. Nothing wrong with high engagement - with a touch of perspective. Hence, No Sediment!! Good job.
Not at all! I like all the geeky and in depth conversations about wine! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
That last point about duration is quite interesting. One of my dream wines is called Sandscrub by a hidden gem producer in the Barossa Valley called Rusden. Their latest release is the 2015 vintage, as they do 4 years in oak, and then 4 years in bottle before release. I thought 4 years in oak would add a super intense oak flavour, but the last point about it not necessarily imparting more oak, but better integrating it, is probably something they're aware of there, and makes me even more keen to try!
I was just reading about wood influence on wine yesterday! So I take it this video was made for me! :) Actually there was basically no info in the book I was reading (New Sothebys Wine Encyclopedia), a lot of babbling about some nonsense but basically nothing about the actual infuence of the wood on the taste of the wine. So thank you!
Thank You, what a coincidence?!? 🙌🙌🙌 There actually are not that many books that look closely on this topic, but there was a one chapter in Jamie Goode’s book “Wine Science”. It is an older one, but maybe You can find it, if You are interested in the topic. 🤔
Very nice series. The bottom line is there are so many different ways to make wine and there are so many different palates out there that there is something for everyone. Please keep these videos coming!
COMPLETELY AGREE! 💪 and thank You for supporting me! It truly means a lot to me! 🥂
Shakespeare reference in the thumbnail you are very intelligent
This is probably the most overused reference. 😪 But it worked here perfectly. 🍷
Oak is such a funny topic... In general, a lot of casual drinkers like the taste and the roundness it provides. Some grapes like Cabernet Sauvignon really need the roundness and tannin polymerization, otherwise they would be too hard and austere. I find it funny when people get obssessed with time in the barrel (12, 18 months etc)... Anyone that spends time in the cellar realizes that exact numbers like this are difficult as some different lots are ready to drink earlier or later than others and that there are A LOT of barrels to blend - making up the final wine. I often urge fellow wine writers to not be so caught up on this...
For my preferences, I find that I prefer reds to be fruitier with less flavors of oak while I am a fan of big, oaky white wines - White Burgundy is often VERYYYY oaky when young. Nice topic that could go on and on and on...
But Chablis is NOT oaked except at the Grand Cru level, tho correct? This helps account for the perceived austerity of Chablis and Chablis Premier Cru in youth.
I am all about the balance. And I think with oak, as with anything else in life really, there are extremes, which are not good. And each wine requires (or don’t) certain amount of oak. And moreover, it is very subjective for each of us. So let’s enjoy what we like the best, and leave a small space for experimentation! 🥰
Very informative and great presentation. I enjoy your videos that go into detail about the different aspects of the wine making process. Well done!
Thank You very much, very happy You enjoyed it. 🙌 Cheers! 🥂
As far as oak goes, I think it is a necessary component in a serious Cabernet Sauvignon. For me, French Oak adds a depth of sorts to the wine as well as an element or perception of classic, old-school wine-making techniques being used. As far as French Oak goes in a white, this I think is where winemakers have to tread very carefully if they want their wine to be able to express notes such as earth and the soil itself. For me, there is nothing that ruins a Chardonnay faster than the juice sitting in new French Oak or slightly older French Oak as the butteriness and vanilla are very easy to overpower anything else a wine has to offer up. Great information, thanks for the video :)
Thank You for Your comment and insight. 🙏🏻 currently it is a very controversial subject that has even ruined families. Oak!!! 😅 But for me it depends on the wine style. And I definitely don’t mind Chardonnay fermented in oak barrels! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻
Another great presentation! 👍❤️
Back in the early 2000s, my colleagues and I would frequent a fabulous restaurant and wine bar on the 2nd floor of a historic heritage building near our office on a lively downtown outdoor walking mall.
As we ascended the stairs into the main entrance adjacent the bar area we would enter an atmosphere rife with the toast&vanilla&wood scents emanating from the dozens and dozens of large glasses of heavily oaked California & Aus Cabs, Shiraz and Chards that were so popular back in the day. I can still close my eyes and remember those rapturous scents lol
I’ll always have fond memories of that place and time and I still prefer a heavily oaked big Shiraz to the more fruit-forward versions that are in style today.
It seems to me that love for the oak is not dead! 🍷 I also think that there some grapes and wine styles that can benefit from oak, and Shiraz, as well as Cabernet Sauvignon are some of those! ✨ Cheers!
@@NoSediment 👍🍷🥂
oak mainly on bordeaux blends. Otherwise I prefer it more fruit forward flavor.
I also quite like oak fermented Chardonnay, which I find more Burgundy producers are doing. Shapes wines beautifully and allows fruit to shine. Thank You for Your comment and cheers! ✨🥂
Thank you again for another stellar video with accurate and well constructed content. Oak for me is a very powerful aspect in the final flavor of wine. That being said, the more wines I taste the more I tend to gravitate to those wines which are more expressive of the actual grape and not overpowering the flavors of the wine with heavy oak flavors.
Geek works! Oak belongs, but it has to be well managed and not chips, powders or staves. They tend to overpower in my opinion. I am a fan for certain whites with oak, warm climate Chardonnay, savagnin (dry, not vin jaune), alegote, alvarinho, white Bordeaux, viognier, chenin blanc and roussanne. The wine maker has a lot to choose from for sure. I do like my American oak in my Tempranillo though…..just a classic style. Cheers and thank you for another great video.
From other videos I've watched , oak can be a polarizing subject. With most things, it all comes down to personal preference. If I taste vanilla in a wine, chances are I'm really going to like it.
I’m not a “natural wine” nerd, but until producers disclose their ingredients, does it matter? If it’s not oaky enough, add an additive! That’s why storeshelf plonk tastes like oaky vanilla
This is an issue with some wine styles and wine categories. But I there are great wines out there that will be made of grapes and water. That is it. 🥰
I don't mind some oak. I've had a couple wines that tasted like liquefied tree branch. It was not for me. I can do light oak....maybe somewhere in the medium at most.
Same here. I also don’t mind some oak, as long as it is done tastefully and benefits the wine. And there certainly are some great examples out there. 🍾🥂 Cheers!
Have you ever taken part in blind tasting comparing wines made with some chips or other wood substitutes against standard oak barrel aged wines?
No, not specifically. Many winemakers are not excited to disclose this kind of information. 🫣
I began drinking wine regularly in the mid-80’s in San Diego, CA and the most prevalent varieties were Merlot and Chardonnay. And while the movie “Sideways” finally ended my routine consumption of Merlot, it was the ever increasing oakiness of California Chardonnays that ended my relationship with that variety. To this day I avoid California Chardonnay in favor of virtually any other white variety in much the same way as I avoid anything with a strong cherry aroma or flavor because it reminds me of the gross cherry flavored cough syrup my mom would spoon into me as a child when I had a cold. I’m a little better with Chardonnay recently, attempting to find labels that make no mention of oak in an effort to reintroduce Chardonnay into my palate. Only time will tell.
A lot of commercial wineries love to use too much oak, usually in the form of oak chips but one should not avoid Chardonnay all together. There are plenty of wineries that are not using tons of new oak and some may choose to not use at all. In Chablis, Burgundy France, oak is primarily for grand cru wines of which the grape used is Chardonnay. If you like Champagne, you are drinking a sparkling wine that uses Chardonnay in the blend. Now in CA, Matthiasson dose not use new oak for their Chardonnay making it have less oak flavor.
I actually feel very sad about this story, but in all honesty, I have experienced similar disappointments that has shaped my preferences in the future. But I still believe that Chardonnay can be magical if in the right hands. 😋
Great tips and suggestions’ 🙌🙌🙌
Well, you expect heavy oak in Spain's rioja and more expensive Bordeaux reds but mostly I want a good balance between tannins and fruit and dislike excessive oak taste
👍
Cheers!
I don't really know my preference. In the cigar world, added flavours are really frowned upon, and I wouldn't want to sully such an excellent product capable of creating so many flavours completely without additives of any kind. Cigars and wine aren't the same, but I do know that some enthusiasts share this sentiment for wine. But until I have the amount of references needed to embrace or reject oak, I'm on the fence.
I have a 12 year old Mendoza with 36 months in the barrel and it has a distinct, but also very integrated and soft oak presence. I think it's delicious (and it's only 25 EUR). I think that wine is 90 pts on Wine Searcher, and I feel that maybe it's a good example of a wine that's being slightly looked down upon by a portion of the critics because it's so well rounded and pleasing (of which that long oak aging probably is an important part), because the score spread on it is crazy. If you take the fact that I'm not jaded into consideration and subtract the "haters", I'm getting like a 94pts wine all the way from Argentina with 12 years on it for 25 EUR. That's the very definition of a bargain in my book, but to someone a little more edgy perhaps, it's just a boring, even vulgar wine.
It sounds like a great value. ✨ I myself don’t look at oak as an additive in wine, and historically it has been closely linked with wine evolution. However, maybe at some point it became as a tool that could also shape flavours of wine, but thankfully today it is once again viewed as a vessel to mature and ferment wine! 🙏🏻
@@NoSediment That's an interesting and important distinction. Thanks for educating me.
Oak-aging is obviously not per definition the best for every wine, but I personally tend to have a slight preference for it. Certainly not for oaky aromas, but oxidative aging IMHO can breathe life into wines. It can makes wines more profound, open and complex. It all sounds a bit vague perhaps, but I often find barrel-aged wines to have more depth. Don't barrel-aged wines tend to age better too? When they've already been exposed to very small amounts of oxygen, aren't they a bit more protected against it?
Less oak and less alcohol please!!
😂😂😂💪💪💪
Got really turned off by big oaked Chards. To me they taste like liquified sawdust
I remember one of the wine critics I followed, described it as biting an oak plank soaked in wine. 😂😂 But I am trying to not be as critical, if these wines sell well, it means there is a market for them. 😅
There is a market for those wines here in Australia and especially the US. Not my preference but give the consumer a choice.
For me, the region dictates my view on the use of oak. For Italian wines, I’m big on traditional aging in large barrels using the classic wood. Italy shouldn’t try to imitate France.
With French wines, using French oak makes since. It is their oak after.
With Spanish wines, I prefer American oak, it is the traditional oak they use to age it and I’m all for traditional winemaking.
I don’t have a preference with the type of oak used for New World wine. There is not traditional like Europe has with their winemaking.
For me it is all about the balance. As long as the wine is beautiful, use whatever oak You want to. Even for Champagne! 😉
What do you think of winemakers who give their wines a DOUBLE dose of NEW oak?
I’m thinking of a producer in Burgundy…..
Love to hear your opinion.
Are there still people doing that? I thought those times are gone’ 🫣
@@NoSediment i had thought so.
But you are closer to the market than I am.
Thanks for another great video.
Well. It's a bit of cheating, isn't it? Back in the day they probably did it to add tannins, which means a huge increase in longevity. In most countries you are prohibited to add (artificial) flavour compounds (i.e. additives) to wine, but hey! Chuck it in a barrel for a year or so and all of a sudden that is completely different. Whereas chemically speaking it is exactly the same. I say no to that.
It depends, because barrels were used for already centuries ago. Therefore, wine development together with oak barrels. However, it used to be older oak more, which imparts little or no oak flavours. 🤷♀️