Thoughtseize in Retrospect
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 ก.ย. 2024
- A study on how Thoughtseize punished every deck in the RTR Standard format.
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Jokes on you I'm playing 60 lands
Meh, you'd still lose. Even the 'Lands.dec' still has other spells.
Can't take my best card if their all the same card!
@@reeeech9245 thats the joke..
Wh...why? Why?
Galaxy brain
> unconditional removal of your opponent's best card
> is playing against lands
God I love Lands for its uniqueness.
It's funny cuz I'm playing a Depths deck with 3 Thoughtseize 2 Inquisitions in it and there's rarely a time where I fear the Seize, but so many times it wins for me.
@@raecelta9766 4 thoughtseize is the way to go... i often find that Inquisition dont stop the important targets so i rather play 2 mana discard spells like "
Thought Erasure" or "Castigate"
@@martinmikkelsen8183 I no longer play depths. I play Abzan midrange using the same set of base cards. I run 4 seize.
@@raecelta9766 look at this character development
I still fondly remember pulling a foil Thoughtseize out of a booster from a Theros fat pack my brother had gotten me for Christmas. Definitely one of the best gifts I got that year!
I'm in love with your Card Studies series. Feels like watching Nerdwriter talking about MTG. Very well done. Thank you for this.
this means a lot. I'm glad you enjoy!
I was feelin that ASMR while your cursor hovered over the price timeline, lol glad to see another video from you!
6:51 'You are targeting ME with that?'
6:40 ***
I think he meant "You look or I show?"
It’s not my job to tell you how the card works, brah!!
Too funny! I literally stopped the video to get the time stamp because I died laughing when I saw that and wanted to say something; rushed to the comments and behold it's the first thing I read! Lol. I love this game.
Well it says "Target Player". You need to make it clear who you're targeting.
make more vids like this. Been looking for magic retros. Awesome vid
I'm only a recent subscriber to your channel and I gotta say, you're stuff is incredible. Ode to Ashnod's Altar was beautiful. Love the perspective and your narrative viewpoint. Just thought I'd say that.
thank you. I appreciate that.
you really do put out great content sam. When it does come out **glare** jkjk, keep it up dude!
i was playing pioneer recently against a guy on lotus combo, aggressively mulled game 2 into Thoughtseize. game three he knew i had it and mulled into 2 lotus, a boseiju, and thespians stage, just to dodge the t1 Thoughtseize. shows just how much this card still warps the game around itself.
2:38
Maybe a leyline wasn't the best example
Zoned Oyestander Hmm
Ugh... turn 1 thoughtseize into turn 2 packrat mutavault. I lost so many games to that scenario in RTR/THS days!
It's a close race, I think, between Pack Rat and Umezawa's Jitte for which is more banworthy in Limited.
^-^
This card is an evergreen... Oh sorry, everblack.
Rogue Deckbuilder
Turn 1 Thoughtseize.......... And Hymn to Tourach....... Thanks Dark Ritual.
Seriously though, that has actually happened to me, and I've done it once.
I looooved the Gary deck!
@@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514 If you seize first, tourach has more chances to get lands, but if you tourach first, then you might get all of the important spells ; fun interaction
I still remember facing Thoughtseize for the first time, way back in 2015. It was at my LGS right after Battle For Zendikar released, and I was playing my newly constructed Grixis Eldrazi deck. I had only begun playing at Khans, but was somewhat capable for a youngster. My opponent was running a Dimir control Modern deck, and I was rather intimidated, but I got my opening hand:
4x Mist Intruder
2x Island
1x Red/Black BFZ dual land
I win the roll, so I drop an Island and pass, and he immediately Thoughtseizes me. The look on his face was genuinely one of the best things I've ever seen, because I just had all four of the same common and he's just like "wHAT," but drops one of my Intruders into the grave. Next turn, I draw a land and play an Intruder, and he goes for second Thoughtseize to get rid of another Intruder. Back to me, and I draw into a Benthic Infiltrator before swinging with my Intruder and trigger its Ingest ability (when it deals combat damage, exile defending player's top library card). He has no response, and guess what I exile?
Spoiler: Thoughtseize number 3.
By this point, we're both just laughing because he's bricking and can't play anything, and I drop a Benthic Infiltrator so I'm ingesting two+ cards per turn, and he just concedes the first game before kicking the crap out of me game 2.
But on game 3, I draw a Ghostfire Blade turn 2 after being Seized, so I play it for giggles and immediately draw a Benthic Infiltrator afterwards. I basically ended up with a 3+ power unblockable beater that continuously exiled the cards he needed until he conceded again.
Later on, I learned that what I'd essentially thrown together earlier that day from my Khans and BFZ cards had taken out a $500+ Modern deck, and that kind of made me super happy. Thoughtseize has grown to be incredibly irritating over the years to me, particularly since I can't afford to get them without severely impacting my disposable income. It's also having your opening hand just peeked at and going minus one before you can even play (on the draw) that really makes me hate the card. I may just be whining, but it's one of those cards that I see and immediately think "sweaty tryhard" over and over again. That's very rude of me, and I keep it internal, but I still think it all the time when I see it :(
/rant
Best Magic channel. Great video. Great content. No bullshit opinion or pandering just retrospect and honest insight. The last magic content producer I actively subscribe to on youtube. Will be here forever.
this is a huge compliment. thank you.
Cards like this are really, really powerful in Yugioh. Some ones that come to mind are trap dustshoot, and the neo space connector into aqua dolphin or mind crush before the new rule. The card you discard isnt as important as the hand knowledge, as soon as you know their hand and see nothing that can stop you, you’re free to just go ahead and win that turn
Trap dustshoot is kinda ass by now, turn 1 is were these effects matter same with mind crush even without the bs rule change. Its a reasonable trade off to have the card be useless for most of turn 1 and 2. Dolphin Connector on the other hand is just silly busted when its in a decent deck.
Dustshoot only really fits into slow control shells and even there it would face strong competition from just another universally good floodgate or solemn.
I don't even play magic, why am I watching this
Oh yeah because he makes his videos interesting, even to someone who has no idea what's going on in them. I should probably play magic though, but I have no clue where to start lmao
You can't go wrong with a duel deck. It's a perfect jumping on point.
You and a friend split it between you and get a deck each. Since they are balanced against each other it can be great fun.
You can get cool cards in them too. Godspeed!
Niall Reid oh cool thanks for the tip!
Play mtg arena. It's purpose built to teach new players and support veterans alike
Or you could go to your local game store and pick up a welcome deck.
With a starter deck of course, or one of those free 30 card decks they give away in the summer
This video was very well done.
thank you!
I like how Rietzl asked if he was being targeted, then put down his hand and looked at it like it was new information
Very good points brought up. But I'd also like to note that Thoughtseize was printed in a block - and even a standard season - where black had a lot of really powerful cards. Downfall, Whip, Gary, and Erebos (saw some occasional from what I remember) were all in the same set, followed soon by Drown in Sorrows and Bile Blight. In the block preceding it, they had Pack Rat, Consume Flesh, Ultimate Price, Underworld Connections, and host of black-based multicolored cards. And Tarkir didn't help with this, Abzan was perhaps the most broken color combination, as they had the best removal, and creatures, and Thoughtseize could easily fit in with it. So much of Thoughtseize's power was probably due to the time of it's printing, but even just thinking about it being reprinted makes me doubt that.
yep, Black was pretty strong at the time, but I think (as you said at the end) that a card like Thoughtseize can basically elevate any archetype and tie together the loose ends.
T1 Thoughtseize in Theros Standard basically informed the rest of your decisions: do I go all-in on Packrat on Turn 2, or sequence with a kill spell, Underworld Connections, and finally Desecration Demon? Without that information, it was easy to fall back on tempo with a deck that wanted to hit its spells on curve.
I have just subbed after seeing only three videos and I have to say I am completely hooked. Your videos have so much passion and time into them it is so hard to stop watching. Keep up the informative and high-quality content and you are gonna grow fast!
This series is honestly amazing.
2:40 I don't think Leyline of Sanctity is a good card to reference on what Thoughtseize can remove, lol.
Technically it can remove Sanctity, if the opp drew it later in the game
Not the best example indeed. But he said that black has trouble dealing with artifact and enchantments, meaning when they’re in play I think.
Absolutely love these types of videos. Really hoping there's more to come
I'm glad you dig! this style will be my approach moving forward, so you're in luck.
Another piece of art by one of the best content creators we have. Thank you, Sam.
It never feels good to find out that your hand is just an illusion.... thanks thoughtsieze !!!
Great video! I love discussions of metas I've missed, hope to see more.
You don't make videos often, but when you do they are always great and well made. Keep it up.
Awesome work, dude. You're honestly one of my favorite MTG TH-camrs and serve as an inspiration for me. Keep it up :)
I appreciate that, man!
Such good videos, especially for a guy like me coming back to magic after close to ten years hiatus. Thanks!
Amazing video Sam!!! I know youre focusing on other stuff for now but if it's not too time-consuming I'd love to see more pack lore videos!
I really like these Retrospects. Esp for a guy like me who stopped playing 14 years ago or whatever.
Thanks for making these. It helps me understand the old metas.
It's really nice to see you back Sam I love all your content
Coming to this video from the future is a cute experience - WotC have found to reprint this beast without ruining standard! The paradigm shift is good in this regard.
I don't even play MTG nor am interested in playing, but your videos are so entertaining, and just so enjoyable, that I would binge watch all of your videos and would not get tired of it.
I started playing during Theros block, before RtR rotated out. As miserable as Standard was with Thoughtseizes and Sphinx's Revelations and Supreme Verdicts flying around, while I just struggled to get my wins with my silly Boros Heroic deck, Thoughtseize taught me both the value of hand knowledge/disruption AND how to consider life totals as a resource. I'm glad they were there.
I'm am also glad I no longer have to play against it in Standard. So.. yeah, everything the video said xD; Love your content, man.
I fell in love with this series overnight
Thorough and articulate, and brought back so many terrible and lovely memories of Theros block.
I hadn't heard of this channel until the Professor did a special on you; I like what I see!
You thought it was Pack Rat but it was me, Thoughtseize!
This is an exceptional insight behind Thoughtseize and why it has caused the situations it has with reprints and the like. Overall a fantastic video, great to see you back Sam!
My first deck was mono black modern.
Striving to have the strongest black deck after 7 years. It didn’t take long for this to just become an absolute staple.
Immediately puts an edge at the start of the game and if it’s in my opening hand these days I’m guaranteed a win 18/20 games.
Your videos have serious replay value
I stopped playing magic years ago. Like...seven years ago. So I have no idea why I've been watching so many of your videos. They are so well thought out and intriguing.
Your editing with the card images are AMAZING
These videos have great content and are very well made. You got yourself a new subscriber.
This is an awesome series! always do cards in retrospect. This is such a sick take and badass content on MTG!!
The quality and content of your vids are incredible!! Just subbed!
so great to here. welcome aboard.
I have no idea what are you talking about but I can't stop watching
This may be my favorite video from you since i've found your channel. Such an interesting narrative brought here.
Hey Sam great to see you back with the high quality magic videos! Thank you for the hard work
I really like this series that you have going here. keep up the great work.
This is great! Puts videos I've done on Magic history to shame!
2023 and thoughtsieze still dominates pioneer/explorer and modern
Great video as always. You always put so much care into your work.
thank you man!
i like the dramatic editing and suspenseful music.
Thoughtseize is not only incredibly good at diminishing black's weakness to enchantment and artifacts.
It is also an incredibly strong control spell.
I would even argue that Thoughtseize is better than the UU Counterspell.
Both cards fulfil the same role: deny the opponent from using any 1 spell.
Counterspell has 3 advantages over Thoughtseize:
- it doesn't cost life
- it trades mana costs (UU vs the countered spells cmc)
- instant speed
Thoughtseize has 4 advantages over Counterspell:
- you get to see the opponent's hand
- you take out the spell preventively / the opponent can not keep the spell in hand and play around your ability to deny it
- you don't gamble with Thoughtseize / don't worry about denying the wrong spell
- only requires 1 black mana
Thoughtseize, Despise and Duress in a time when Siege Rhino was in standard, is the definition of nauseating.
Your stuff is always top notch! I think Thoughtsieze was a good reprint, and powerful reprints can go in standard, but they must be done aware that they can warp things. What if there was a powerful midrange creature that you could put into play if an effect an opponent controls caused you to reveal your hand? Or raise the stakes and design a set/Standard environment where Thoughtsieze was ONE of the best cards, not clearly head and shoulders above everything else. It's hard but they set a bar once I think they just don't want to have standards powerful enough to house eternal staples anymore. :c
I don't normally like this type of magic video but yours are so great.
thank you!
This video is GREAT! sound quality could be improved but I love the format.
Very, very, very well done video. Congrats.
Most Modern reprints are fine for Standard depending on what else is legal at the time. Fetchlands are fine as long as there are no fetchable dual lands in the same standard environment. Combo enablers like Scapeshift and Ad Nauseum are also fine as long as their wincons aren't in Standard at the same time.
Really well made video, hope you put out more like this ^_^
you do such a goddamn incredible job in these videos. Thank you.
Great to have another Magic Man Sam video!
When Khans of Tarkir and Theros were in Standard, I ran four copies of Thoughtseize and three copies of Brain Maggot, one of the worse 2 mana discard guys out there, in my Mardu deck just because I wanted to make sure my 3 mana token producer (Rabblemaster or Brimaz) would reliably stick on the table.
Thoughtseize gave me an opportunity to brew up and play an actual aggro-control deck, an archetype I hadn't had a real opportunity to give a spin since Extended's Miracle Gro. I was able to paste together something like a 80 percent win ratio over that season with my build that relied on powerful creature removal and discard, three mana token producers, and seven or eight four or five drops that could attack with haste in the air to clinch games. Siege Rhino was never all that tough to deal with, since I could force it out of their hand, or just Crackling Doom it and swing in with my ridiculous three drop. And the archetype wouldn't have worked without the disruption.
Keep up the fine work.
you were on the fun side of this card, while I was still trying to run Pyromancer tempo decks. sigh.
just saw this video, awesome content. Just a little comment on the art of animate dead; watch the arts of sun titan, the new reprint art for terminate and the animate dead, they make a cicle.
I feel as if I'm the only non-black player from Theros standard that doesn't hate Thoughtseize. Yes, it needed a reprint desperately, but I very much appreciated how skill-intensive the card is, and I didn't mind losing to a player who demonstrated that capacity.
Then again, I'm one of those people that liked the concept of damage-on-the-stack, so take that for whatever it's worth.
Anyway, here's to more great content! ^-^
there is a "cap" though, at the cap, which isn't exactly as high as this video would suggest, Thought-sieze is just a back breaker that you can't do anything about, many games can be utterly won on the spot, on the play, turn 1, thought seize, and all it takes to win that game is the "correct" choice, with no counter play
Keith Filibeck This. Most of the time, decisions made with discard spells aren't every difficult, especially if you know the metagame which you should if you're playing tournament magic at all. As cards like Thoughtseize show us one of the less talked about facts of Magic: Pinpoint hand disruption is one of the most powerful effects in the game.
Everyone who thinks turn 1 thought seize is game breaking in standard, has never seen turn 2 thought seize. Unless your deck was casting anything relevant on turn 2, going for the turn 1 thought seize was almost always wrong.
I'd love to see a history of this specific type skill intensive hand disruption and how it's changed over the years to become this powerful. (IE: Coercion, Duress, Ostracize, Unmask, Distress, Thoughtseize, Despise, Inquisition of Kozilek, etc.)
Reprint the damn cards in eternal supplemental sets! Modern Horizons gives you the ability to reprint modern power leveled cards with no standard in the picture. Commander precons let you reprint the staples we need in casual format that is way too expensive. R&D's obsession with the secondary market needs to stop to make magic more affordable on all fronts. I'm of the opinion that if the reserve list gets to exist, no single card should be above 20 dollars, because all others cards should be printed into the fucking ground! I'm fine having some expensive alternate art foil promo whatever the fuck being expensive, and the reserve list can even still exist, but their sould be no reason to have to anything above 80 dollars for 4 pieces of fucking cardboard. Reprint the fetches in precons, reprint damnation in Horizons, and stop complaining about players wanting cheaper shit when you do nothing about it.
Agreed. Make foils and shit unique to the original release for mUh CoLeCtOrS, but let people build decks based on the cards, not their wallets.
I keep saying this and no one seems to get it, they won’t do it, because they’re too busy commuting investment fraud. That’s why they care so much abt the secondary market but can’t publicly say anything about it. They’re manipulating the prices of their cards. Wotc and their entire board of directors should be in jail.
@@checkthenutz Absolutely. They are completely controlling the supply of product to keep prices and demand high. And now we have the $400 fetch land secret lair bullshit box that isn't even foil and is printed in extremely limited quantities.
🌚 your wish came true
absolutely, magic should be a game that ordinary people can actually play
I don't play magic and have no idea what most of what you mention means, but I've watched more than a few of these videos.
Lol, Paul Rietzl at 6:41: "18 life... you're targeting me? ok, just making sure."
Great work Sam!
Thing is, I think WotC has actually figured out the "Thoughtseize Issue" as I'm calling it now (watching this in September of 2017).
I want to visit Gaea's Cradle. The card is broken. There's no question about it. Not only is it on the reserved list, but if they did reprint it, it would break standard in countless ways. Now there's something new:
Growing Rites of Itlimoc.
The solution is to print a powered down or harder to cast version. The first example of this was before Thoguhtseize was ever in Standard: the fixed cards in time spiral block. Restore Balance, Lotus Bloom, Ancestral Vision, Living End, etc.
I personally think that's the way to reprint needed cards.
So funny that Kevin from the RDB just gave you a shutout tonight! Good vid.
Great video Sam, looking forward to the next! :D
You're like the Mark Brown of MTG, easy subscription
I've never heard of him, but shoutout regardless. welcome aboard.
Tho poo th p o.o i8+ oii w iejj e ijeu3iioi22o82l3nnmn3n3nmnmmemekk3
The Mark Ass Brownlee of MTG? Yahhh... that's hot.
Note however the strange dip some time prior to the set being release, almost as if someone who makes the prices for these things found out about it's inclusion in Theros.
Your content is amazing.
The video is informative and calming.
Continue with the good work. :)
I remember opening and selling 3 foil thoughtsiezes theros pre release night for 60 each. Good memories
Started playing Magic shortly after Theros' release. Standard was like having teeth pulled. Thoughtseize almost convinced me to quit the game entirely and I definitely would have had friends not convinced me to build an EDH deck.
A tie under a flanel shirt.
I didnt think i would live time enough to see that
ahh, i love Kithkin, so devious, yet straight forward in a sense. a played Thoughtseize in my vampire deck, ahh... i love that deck... man i wanna play some magic now lol
Haha love looking back at how badly people evaluated cards in the past (not so different from how we do now :p).
no kidding. reading through the initial thread on Planeswalkers was a trip.
BRO WAS THAT COURIER NEW??
A.K.A. THE FUCKING BEST FONT????
HELL YEAH
Well, Agonizing Remorse is coming soon with TBD, it ain't Thoughtseize, but it is certainly close
0:08 At first, I thought the Mii Channel theme was playing.
welcome back and great vid as usual
very very well done videos. thank you!
Crazy this card got printed. Yu-gi-oh! had printed and banned confiscation, a card with an almost identical effect around a year or 2 prior to thoughtseize first print.
The history and the thought behind these videos? Wow!
I have a copy of inquisition of kozeliek and that thing is still broken, as is, I can only imagine how devastating a thoughtseize would be
I like the point about not making cards powerful and unconditional. For instance quench is huge in standard now, and it's just a unconditional 2 mana counter for any aggressive deck. Factor in that there are also powerful counters at the 1 mana and 3 mana slots, and you have a deck that revolves around play 1 unremoval tempest djinn essentially, no fun allowed.
It's funny seeing these arguments from Rosewater and R&D in hindsight, given the huge trainwreck the last year has been for magic due to their horrendous decisions in card design. I'd take modern reprints over Uro/Omnath/Oko/Field of the Dead/Veil of Summer/Wilderness Rec/Fires of Invention/etc ANYDAY OF THE WEEK
You are really making me want to fucking play magic again
your video content is amazing, keep up the good work !
I actually like the Theros art. To me both have a sinister vibe to them.
I guess it's personal preference: Would you want to see a farie haunting someone's dreams, or see someone in the process of losing their mind.
Would you consider making these audios into podcasts? I’d love to listen to your work during my commutes
I love your videos so much, im commenting on all of them to assist with the TH-cam Algorithm.
Nothing tilts me more than a turn 1 Thoughtsieze.
Other than when it's followed up by a turn 2 Thoughtsieze.
Last guy to do that to me though got Skewered, Shocked and Bolted to a crisp.
It was very satisfying.
I love so fucking much thoughtseize, I'm looking forward to complete my third set, cause why not?