Why I Became Catholic Instead of Orthodox w/ Dr. Scott Hahn
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.ย. 2024
- This clip is taken from a recent livestream with Dr. Scott Hahn. Watch the full interview here: • The Conversion of Dr. ...
Dr. Hahn explains why it would have been easier, in some regards, for him to become Orthodox instead of Catholic. But also, why he just had to become Catholic anyway...
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Hugs from an Orthodox for all my Catholic brothers and sisters! :)
Thank you. We love our Orthodox brothers and sisters!
Best comment so far.
Peace and blessings our brother in Christ!
Christ is Risen!
@@iliya3110 Αληθώς ανέστη! :)
why ortodox ppl can accept jesus in their heart
I am Catholic and I have lots of respect for my brothers and sisters in the Orthodox Church.
Thank God for you. You're an oasis in this f*cking comment section, that's for sure. "I would love for you to have him back for an hour of Orthodox polemics, please do this ASAP" is the leading comment right now. So much for "sister Churches."
@zedd Wrong. Same origin. Core dogmas (first 7) are common. All we need is to address the Filioque and the papal infallibility conflicts. Possible. The rest is just a matter of each church respecting the spirituality of the other and accepting that the same belief can be expressed differently according to different traditions.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Don’t forget absolute divine simplicity vs. essence/energies distinction. This is the mother of all differences as it naturally bleeds into all the other things you mentioned.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese nice! Can you link me to it?
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese no worries! Thanks, brother. ☦️
I was raised and only baptized Catholic, later got lost in the world like most people do, then coming back to the Church I found myself searching for a more reverent liturgy so I was in between an Orthodox Church and an SSPX Church, the reason I didn't become orthodox was quite simple, all the Orthodox priests, deacons and laity spoke to me was how is it that Rome is wrong, how Rome do things incorrectly, how is it that Rome's theology is wrong ( they call our Church "Rome", at least here in Chile), and then when I went to the SSPX Church all they spoke to me about was Jesus, his Holy Mother, The Church, how to live as a catholic in this world...
Basically one Church told me how is it that the other is wrong and the other Church taught me about God and how to live as a Christian. I had my first Holy Communion, Confirmation and Got Married in the Catholic Church within a year from that experience.
Interesting, indeed, not sure how that refutes Orthodoxy
@@Giorginho Sure, that wasn't my point, I am just sharing a testimony. The process of learning why orthodoxy is wrong has been a long one, and it would take forever to write.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Good point
@@AprendeMovimiento Understood
We’ve been in a SSPX parish now for 6 years. Haven’t looked back since
God bless my orthodox brothers, from a catholic. We are more alike than different
We are the same, actually, ;-) humans with huge egos, but our religions are different, because The Catholicism, with the Schism, brought innovations that changed the way they see The Holy Trinity, The Holy Eucharisty, various misteries etc, so that, as we speak, and since the split, its like we serve two different Gods. Even sin is seen differently as the innovations never stopped in the Catholic Church. May God bring everybody Home!
Ok, I too support a full length discussion on Orthodoxy and the Catholicism between you too. Most of us need that in our lives. Please and thank you. Thanks Matt for setting this up!!
Has he done it yet
@@WPWolfe Not yet unfortunately
Yes. Let’s discuss if crack, heroin or religion is better to remove the human from reality. I’m voting on religion as the ultimate destroyer of the awesome human intellect and spirit. You believe in demons, magic, a fictional place called heaven and one called hell, you drink the blood and eat the flesh of another. If you told this to your psychiatrist, you would be committed to an insane asylum that same day. Enjoy your blood and flesh waiting on a magic act to occur. Please seek help now! Cheers!
I have deep respect for both traditions and hope and pray for more unity between these beautiful ancient churches.
Exactly: tradition, not Jesus
Catholicism would likely have to remove doctrines like the infallibility of the pope. Orthodoxy doesn’t express any real interest in submitting to his leadership. I’m a Protestant, so I have no dog in that fight, but they have too many issues to really unite as one church right now.
@@eve3363 Then I suppose you don’t wear a crucifix, Christ never told you or anyone to wear a cross as a necklace. I suppose you don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter either because those aren’t anywhere in the Bible. These are just a few of the countless traditions that Christians have been doing since the very beginning in practicing their faith in the Holy Trinity. Protestants not only still follow many traditions of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches but have now developed many of their own traditions such as self-confession and the grape juice Eucharist to name some low hanging fruit.
@@giannobong6778 You are correct. I am a Jehovah's Witness and do not partake in any of the above.
@@eve3363 Well then I’m not sure why you emphasized Jesus in that statement instead of Jehovah.
I loved the Orthodox Church and my Orthodox brothers and sisters, but, because of their ethnicity, I just never felt like I belonged.
I can relate to that, my husband is dutch, I am Romanian, he was a darwinist, but he baptised and we got married in church; he studied a lot, technically, but I think he didnt believe, for real. For each miracle in his life he would say, it s a coincidence, until he couldnt say that anymore, because there were so many miracles that could not be coincidences!...He is a wonderful Christian, yet, I saw him always longing for a dutch orthodox church, but unfortunately, western people find it hard to keep orthodoxy pure, because their mindsets are too much connected to practicality and materialism, thats my own opinion, so after he was periodically dissapointed by the shape of dutch/western orthodoxy he experienced, he got it clear that he must stay stuck with Romanian Orthodoxy and sometimes we also go to the Russian Church...
My sugestion would be to feel like you belong, because you do! You are in a relationship with God and The Holy Mother..the saints etc and we are all naked there, no clothes, no nationality... :-).
a church as an institution is just a gathering of sinful people, dont take it personally...maybe find another church, but make sure you atend a traditional Eastern Orthodox Church, because we already see schisms within the Eastern Orthodox Church, as the orthodoxy grows, the temptation for innovation grows too...
Try also to talk with the priest/spiritual father about what you feel, he can help you in many ways with that.
Orthodoxy is not “ethnic” and there are no “denominations.” What there are, are different Archdioceses that, at least outside of America, operate in different languages for different cultures. Greek, Serbian, and Antiochian Orthodox Churches are not “different Churches” and a member of one may commune at any of the others because they are all part of the same united Body of Christ.
agreed, Scott does talk rubbish sometimes (plus the author he recommends is a big 'no no' who believes that the TLM WAS abrogated!)
Thank you for the common sense.
But the Russian Orthodox can't commune with the Greek Orthodox?
@@tinag7506 we can
@Brother Augustine do you have any comments on what he said about the Filioque?
Please have him back for this conversation. I can't wait! God bless and keep up the hard work!
Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Just curious, what verse is this
Just curious, what verse is this
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Thanks
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese Are you implying Jesus “nullified” what He had just said? So with that we can know very clearly you were not only Protestant, but among those anti-Catholics with Jack Chick tracts in hand. Sorry.
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese
Are you misunderstanding papal infallibility or something similar?
The pope can be wrong, is not that if i call Francis and ask him "what's 23553×1442586?" and he is wrong then papal infallibilty is false.
Look at what else they say other than the verses mentioned here
Jesus: Who am i?(theological question)
Peter:Son of God(theological answer)
Jesus: my Father said it to you. You are now rockman, take the keys
Jesus: Also i am going to die
Peter: what the hell Jes? You can't. (Emotional reaction)
Jesus: go behind me satan
The difference is the context, he is not making a theological or dogmatic statement the second time, he is just angry and sad
I would not be Orthodox unless I was born into the nationality of one of the original Orthodox Churches. If you are, and that is your family and culture, God bless you. You are our brothers and hopefully we will all be one again soon.
J Louis
That would be Beautiful.
Funny since I'm portuguese, can trace my ancestry way back and every single member of my family remained Catholic, yet I'm Orthodox. It's not like being a Greek or a Jew matters when it comes to True Christianity.
Under orthodoxy, not the corrupt lean of the pope.
@Lionslicer Unfortunately I do not live in the homeland haha, I live in the US and where I live there are a lot of churches. De qualquer maneira, rezarei por sua jornada.
@@cxarhomell5867 were the Russian Orthodox Patriarchs “corrupt” when they cooperated with the communists?
Growing up in a hippy bible church that grew up out of the Jesus revolution movement in the 70s I didn't even know what a Protestant was until I was around 18yrs old. I knew there were Catholics and from all that I heard is that they weren't saved and that they worshiped Mary and the Pope or didn't believe in the bible. When I wanted to be a pastor, I was involved with church plants and music ministry and eventually became a missionary. However, it was a Orthodox Priest I met named Father Lawrence that taught be about my bible, how it became the bible, as well as the Church Fathers. It was the seed that began to grow into my life that there was more to the body of Christ. Eventually, the hippy church and I parted way and I felt lost. I never felt like I fitted in and tried every denomination I came across. Until I went through a tragedy and ended up walking the Camino in Spain. At this time still very far from the Catholic faith. But I experienced a supernatural healing and a connection to my faith I began to fall in love with. My wife and I met at a charismatic protestant church which we both really loved, then the pandemic happened. I tried to become a pastor again and again, yet each church found ways to turn me away or ignore me. I felt lost again and wasn't sure what to do. My heart was to serve, and I had very it was to be a pastor. Then I learned about the term "Domestic Priest" from Fr. Mike and Jeff Cavins. I listened to the whole Bible in a Year podcast and felt hungrier than ever to learn more about the Catholic church. My wife and I are now on our road to Rome so to speak purposing in our hearts and lives to become Catholics. It's uncomfortable because most of our Christian family members have such deep (yet unfounded) prejudice towards Catholism. However, we are not deterred by this obstacle. Nor are we upset with all these wonderful at times or at least in their well intentions, protestant churches. I am happy to know that the calling of a Priest is chaste, poverty and obedience. There is a higher calling than that of a Domestic Priest. I am happy for this distinction. Because a Catholic Priest has a perspective that I do not have as they are living a life more set apart. This is not a hierarchy but a respect thing.
Both churchs are real. They are on different traditions and liturgy, but are real churchs of God.
Honestly this is the only opinion I like
Agreed, I believe both are true church
@@tinag7506 not an opinion but actual facts, there are orthodox Catholics we just separated because of some bad seeds in the church.
This is sort of how I think too.
@@braxeld4551 like the pope
PLEASE do the episode you spoke of!
I love seeing the variety of Churches in full communion with Rome and the richness that results, but it would be very interesting to see an educated discussion on the proper boundries.
"And we speak also of the Spirit of the Son, not as though proceeding from Him, but as proceeding through Him from the Father. For the Father alone is cause"
- St. John of Damascus, died 749 before the controversy; considered a doctor of the Roman Catholic Church
Please bring back this discussion. It is most crucial as a convert to Catholicism from Armenian Orthodox (American born). I can agree most with Dr. Hahn and especially on the issue of ethnicity. Again, bring him back because there are some issues among Orthodox pointing fingers towards the church of Rome or us saying they fell off from the true Orthodoxy. I know that's not true.
I agreed with you 100%. You mentioned good points. I am Catholic but I grow up with Orthodox dominant Country
While many in the Orthodox Church do exaggerate the issues with Rome, we in the Catholic Church fool ourselves in thinking that they don’t have any fair criticisms for us to truly ponder, possibly even to heed.
@@GuadalupePicasso Generally speaking , schismatics (Orthodox) and heretics (Protestants) are NOT the best sources for critique. Instead listen to the Saints.
@@PaulDo22 the church doesn’t teach that Orthodox are heretics......
@@GuadalupePicasso Who said Orthodox are heretics?
Just to remember - only Eastern texts that couldn’t be clearer in the context:
*John Cassian, Monk (c. 430)*
_“That great man, the disciple of disciples, that master among masters, _*_who wielding the government of the Roman Church possessed the principle authority in faith and in priesthood. Tell us, therefore, we beg of you, Peter, prince of Apostles, tell us how the Churches must believe in God_*_ ”_ (Cassian, Contra Nestorium, III, 12, CSEL, vol. 17, p. 276)
___________________
*St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem (c. 638)* (talking about Peter in the See of Rome and Mark in the See of Alexandria)
_“Teaching us all orthodoxy and destroying all heresy and driving it away from the God-protected halls of our holy Catholic Church. And together with these inspired syllables and characters, _*_I accept all his (the pope's) letters and teachings as proceeding from the mouth of Peter the Coryphaeus, and I kiss them and salute them and embrace them with all my soul_*_ ... I recognize the latter as definitions of Peter and the former as those of Mark, and besides, all the heaven-taught teachings of all the chosen mystagogues of our Catholic Church”_ (Sophronius, Mansi, xi. 461)
_“ _*_Transverse quickly all the world from one end to the other until you come to the Apostolic See (Rome), where are the foundations of the orthodox doctrine_*_ . Make clearly known to the most holy personages of that throne the questions agitated among us. Cease not to pray and to beg them until their apostolic and Divine wisdom shall have pronounced the victorious judgement and destroyed from the foundation ...the new heresy”_ . (Sophronius, [quoted by Bishop Stephen of Dora to Pope Martin I at the Lateran Council], Mansi, 893)
___________________
*Stephen, Bishop of Dora in Palestine (645)*
_”And for this cause, sometimes we ask for water to our head and to our eyes a fountain of tears, sometimes the wings of a dove, _*_according to holy David, that we might fly away and announce these things to the Chair (the Chair of Peter at Rome) which rules and presides over all, I mean to yours, the head and highest, for the healing of the whole wound. For this it has been accustomed to do from old and from the beginning with power by its canonical or apostolic authority, because the truly great Peter, head of the Apostles, was clearly thought worthy not only to be trusted with the keys of heaven, alone apart from the rest, to open it worthily to believers, or to close it justly to those who disbelieve the Gospel of grace, but because he was also commissioned to feed the sheep of the whole Catholic Church_*_ ; for 'Peter,' saith He, 'lovest thou Me? Feed My sheep.' And again, because he had in a manner peculiar and special, a faith in the Lord stronger than all and unchangeable, to be converted and to confirm his fellows and spiritual brethren when tossed about, as having been adorned by God Himself incarnate for us with power and sacerdotal authority .....And Sophronius of blessed memory, who was Patriarch of the holy city of Christ our God, and under whom I was bishop, conferring not with flesh and blood, but caring only for the things of Christ with respect to your Holiness, hastened to send my nothingness without delay about this matter alone to this Apostolic see, where are the foundations of holy doctrine”_ .
___________________
*Macedonius, Patriarch of Constantinople* (466-516)
_“Macedonius declared, when desired by the Emperor Anastasius to condemn the Council of Chalcedon, that _*_such a step without an Ecumenical Synod presided over by the Pope of Rome is impossible”_* (Macedonius, Patr. Graec. 108: 360a (Theophan. Chronogr. pp. 234-346 seq.)
___________________
*John VI, Patriarch of Constantinople (715)*
_“The Pope of Rome, _*_the head of the Christian priesthood_*_ , whom in Peter, the Lord commanded to confirm his brethren”_ . (John VI, Epist. ad Constantin. Pap. ad. Combefis, Auctuar. Bibl. P.P. Graec.tom. ii. p. 211, seq.)
___________________
*St. Nicephorus, Patriarch of Constantinople (758-828)*
_“Without whom _*_(the Romans presiding in the seventh Council) a doctrine brought forward in the Church could not, even though confirmed by canonical decrees and by ecclesiastical usage, ever obtain full approval_*_ or currency. For it is they (the Popes of Rome) who have had assigned to them the rule in sacred things, and who have received into their hands the dignity of _*_headship among the Apostles”_* (Nicephorus, Niceph. Cpl. pro. s. imag. c 25 [Mai N. Bibl. pp. ii. 30]).
___________________
*St. Athanasius (362)*
_“Rome is called the _*_Apostolic throne”_* . (Athanasius, Hist. Arian, ad Monach. n. 35)
_The Chief, Peter_ (Athan, In Ps. xv. 8, tom. iii. p. 106, Migne)
___________________
*St. Cyril of Alexandria (c. 424)*
_”They (the Apostles) strove to _*_learn through one, that preeminent one, Peter”_* . (Cyril, Ib. 1. ix. p. 736).
___________________
*Eulogius of Alexandria (581)*
(Born in Syria, he became the abbot of the Mother of God monastery at Antioch. In 579, he was made Patriarch of Alexandria; and became an associate of St. Gregory the Great while visiting Constantinople. Much of their subsequent correspondence is still extant.
_“Neither to John, _*_nor to any other of the disciples, did our Savior say, 'I will give to thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,' but only to Peter”_* . (Eulogius, Lib. ii. Cont. Novatian. ap. Photium, Biblioth, cod. 280)
___________________
*Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in Syria (450)*
A native of Antioch, Theodoret ruled under the Antiochean Patriarch
_“I therefore beseech your holiness to persuade _*_the most holy and blessed bishop (Pope Leo the Great) to use his Apostolic power, and to order me to hasten to your Council. For that most holy throne (Rome) has the sovereignty over the churches throughout the universe on many grounds”_* . (Theodoret, Tom. iv. Epist. cxvi. Renato, p. 1197).
_”If Paul, the herald of the truth, the trumpet of the Holy Spirit, hastened to the great Peter, to convey from him the solution to those in Antioch, who were at issue about living under the law, _*_how much more do we, poor and humble, run to the Apostolic Throne (Rome) to receive from you (Pope Leo the Great) healing for wounds of the Churches_*_ . For it pertains to you to have primacy in all things; for your throne is adorned with many prerogatives”_ . (Theodoret Ibid, Epistle Leoni)
___________________
*St. Epiphanius, Archbishop of Salamis (385)*
_“Holy men are therefore called the temple of God, because the Holy Spirit dwells in them; as that Chief of the Apostles testifies, he that was found to be blessed by the Lord, because the Father had revealed unto him. To him then did the Father reveal His true Son; _*_and the same (Peter) furthermore reveals the Holy Spirit. This was befitting in the First of the Apostles, that firm Rock upon which the Church of God is built, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. The gates of hell are heretics and heresiarchs. For in every way was the faith confirmed in him who received the keys of heaven_*_ ; who looses on earth and binds in heaven. For in him are found all subtle questions of faith. He was aided by the Father so as to be (or lay) the Foundation of the security (firmness) of the faith. He (Peter) heard from the same God, 'feed my lambs'; to him He entrusted the flock; he leads the way admirably in the power of his own Master”_ . (Epiphanius, T. ii. in Anchor).
___________________
*Emperor Justinian (520-533)*
(Writing to the Pope: just check that he himself was the creator of the not-theological concept of “Pentarchy”):
_“Yielding honor to the Apostolic See and to Your Holiness, and honoring your Holiness, _*_as one ought to honor a father, we have hastened to subject all the priests of the whole Eastern district, and to unite them to the See of your Holiness, for we do not allow of any point, however manifest and indisputable it be, which relates to the state of the Churches, not being brought to the cognizance of your Holiness, since you are the Head of all the holy Churches_*_ ”_ . (Justinian Epist. ad. Pap. Joan. ii. Cod. Justin. lib. I. tit. 1).
_“Let your Apostleship show that you have _*_worthily succeeded to the Apostle Peter, since the Lord will work through you, as Surpreme Pastor_*_ , the salvation of all”_ . (Coll. Avell. Ep. 196, July 9th, 520, Justinian to Pope Hormisdas).
________________________
Not quoting any of the Latin patrology here.
Greetings.
@JP Obviously they all know any pope can be in error. But they knew he can also be corrected.
@JP Do you care to give me any quotation of Pope St Gregory the Great in which he said the Petrine See is a triune combination of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch? If you get to find one (by Pope St Gregory), I will put the context later exactly as a response to you.
@JP Just to help you find out more about Pope St Gregory the Great:
_”(...) I, unworthy, succeeded to the _*_GOVERNMENT OF THE CHURCH_*_ (...)”_ .
_For what are all your brethren, the bishops of the universal Church, but stars of heaven, whose life and discourse shine together amid the sins and errors of men, as if amid the shades of night? And when you desire to put yourself above them by this proud title, and to tread down their name in comparison with yours, what else do you say but I will ascend into heaven; I will exalt my throne above the stars of heaven? Are not all the bishops together clouds, who both rain in the words of preaching, and glitter in the light of good works?_
_(...) Peter, the first of the apostles,_ (...)
_Was it not the case, as your Fraternity knows, that the prelates of _*_THIS APOSTOLIC SEE_*_ which by the providence of God I serve, had the honour offered them of being called _*_UNIVERSAL_*_ by the venerable Council of Chalcedon. But yet not one of them has ever wished to be called by such a title, or seized upon this ill-advised name, lest if, in virtue of the rank of the pontificate, he took to himself the glory of singularity, he might seem to have denied it to all his brethren._ (Pope Gregory, Book 5, Letter 18)
_____________
_”When our predecessor Pelagius of blessed memory became aware of this, _*_HE ANNULLED_*_ by a fully valid censure all the proceedings of that same synod (...)”_
_Furthermore, it has come to our knowledge that your Fraternity has been convened to Constantinople. And although our most pious Emperor allows nothing unlawful to be done there, yet, lest perverse men, taking occasion of your assembly, should seek opportunity of cajoling you in favouring this name of superstition, or should think of holding a synod about some other matter, with the view of introducing it therein by cunning contrivances,- though _*_WITHOUT THE AUTHORITY AND CONSENT_*_ of the _*_Apostolic See_*_ nothing that might be passed would have _*_ANY FORCE_*_ (...)_ (Pope Gregory, Book 9, Letter 58).
_____________
_”Inasmuch as it is manifest that the _*_APOSTOLIC SEE IS, BY THE ORDERING OF GOD, SER OVER ALL THE CHURCHES,_*_ there is, among our manifold cares, special demand for our attention, when our decision is awaited with a view to the consecration of a bishop. (. . .) you are to cause him to be consecrated by his own bishops, as ancient usage requires, with the assent of our authority, and the help of the Lord; to the end that through the observance of such custom both the Apostolic See may retain the power belonging to it, and at the same time may not diminish the rights which it has conceded to others_ (Pope Gregory, Book 3, Letter 30).
_____________
_”For as to what they say about the _*_CHURCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE, WHO CAN DOUBT THAT IT IS SUBJECT TO THE APOSTOLIC SEE,_*_ as both the most pious lord the emperor and our brother the bishop of that city continually acknowledge_ ? (Pope Gregory, Book 9, Letter 12)
_____________
_”[Y]ou must still strictly order them to _*_OBSERVE ALL THINGS AFTER THE PATTERN OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE”_* (Pope Gregory, Book 4, Letter 36)
_____________
_”It was right that the _*_APOSTOLIC SEE_*_ should take heed, with the view of _*_GUARDING IN ALL RESPECTS THE UNITY_*_ of the Universal Church in the minds of priests”_ (Pope Gregory, Book 4, Letter 2).
I will come later if you will. Greetings from Brazil.
@JP Really? That’s impressive! Recognizing the Roman See exercised the government of the Catholic Church is a step further to truth! Care to give us your appreciation on Pope St Gregory the Great saying that Constantinople must be SUBJECT to Rome, as the holy Emperor and the holy Patriarchs always recognized?
Ah, besides, I am waiting you to give me an example of the Petrine See being quoted as some kind of “Triumvirate” of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch in St Gregory the Great.
Thanks!
@JP As specifically asked, just following what you said, a quote by Pope St Gregory the Great was in the expectation. But you missed, of course.
But no problem if you quote St Eulogios, Patriarch of Alexandria during the papacy of St Gregory the Great. That even makes sense. He was hugely respectful to St Gregory, as all of the world, specially his universal authority, which was exercised very respectfully. Only a necessary correction: St Eulogios was NEVER treated as the “Pope” of Alexandria, a terminology used by the Coptic Oriental Orthodox who are monophysites and split from the Catholic Church in 451 AD. So one should call him the “Bishop” or the “Patriarch” (according to the Eastern customs) of Alexandria, not the “Pope” of Alexandria (who is indeed the monophysite Coptic Oriental Orthodox Bishop’s self-proclaimed title, not in communion with Catholics, neither with you EOs).
Just for a basic introduction of the matter, this clarification was needed.
If you are attentive, the reference to the threefold Petrine Sees (in the order: Rome, Alexandria and Antioch) was a custom specially in the bilateral relationship between Alexandria and Rome, managed to preserve the higher dignity of Alexandria against the pretenses of the (Imperial) See of Constantinople, who came to be proclaimed “second only to Rome” in the Ecumenical Council of Constantinople (381 AD). There was a political movement in Constantinople to divide the Church to Rome and Constantinople as two ‘superpatriarchates’ that should mirror the Roman Empire of the West (Rome) and of the East (Constantinople, the “New Rome”). So that movement conceived Constantinople as the “Patriarchate of the East”; Rome as the “Patriarchate of the West”. But that was NEVER accepted in Rome, but emphatically rejected (specially) in Alexandria. So you have to know better all of ecclesiastical history and not twist things, and one should apart himself from the basic errors you are committing. Alexandria lost its importance from the 7th century on because of the Islamic Saracen conquest of Egypt, which made Alexandria to be outside of the Byzantine Empire; then Constantinople started to act even more arrogantly, one should notice. Constantinopolitan “ecclesiastical imperialism” would demand a whole chapter here, but I’ll just skip it.
More specifically on the theme: for you to know, one of the most emphatic preacher of this three fold “Petrine Sees” was nothing but Pope St Leo the Great. But it was NEVER conceived as some sort of “triumvirate” of power. He was emphatically defending the position of Alexandria against Constantinople, and guess what, he was fully acclaimed by St Flavian of Constantinople, a very holy man and a martyr for Catholics and Orthodoxs.
There is a very easy evidence to refute your argument over the “Petrine ministry” of the “Pope” of Alexandria: the very Ecumenical Council of Chalcedon (451 AD). St Leo the Great used his authority as the Successor of St Peter to condemn and excommunicate Dioscorus, the Patriarch of Alexandria and the LEADER of the “ROBBER” Council of Ephesus (in 449 AD). Just for you to know, Dioscorus followers, arguably under his direct orders (that thesis is the one, for example, of Vladimir Soloviev in this precious “Russia and the Universal Church”) were responsible for the ASSASSINATION of St Flavian of Constantinople in the very “Robber Council”. St Flavian of Constantinople is a martyr both for the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy - again I should say.
Obs: Dioscorus is considered a heresyarch by the Catholic Church AND by the Eastern Orthodox Church, but he is proclaimed as a saint (!) in the Oriental Orthodox Coptic Church and treated as “St Dioscorus the Great, Pope of Alexandria”.
That was enough of a threat and a despise on St Leo the Great, Pope of Rome, his theological and ecclesiastical arch-rival. St Leo prevailed, not necessary to say: and the followers of Dioscorus, reinstating the theology of Eutyches, split the Church.
If your theory even made sense, how would Chalcedon ever proclaim that St Leo the Great spoke as the successor of St Peter against Dioscorus, the Patriarch of Alexandria, using the power of the keys, and that from Rome came the true doctrine that all universal church would follow?
If you read St Cyril of Alexandria’s statements condemning Dioscorus of Alexandria and praising St Leo of Rome as the highest authority of the universal church, you would know that this thesis is just a nonsensical theory that “post-modern” Eastern Orthodoxs are using now and then - used historically by Oriental Orthodox pre-Chalcedonians - to be anti-Romans, betraying history and Sacred Tradition if necessary just to reinforce ideological separatism.
Go read the acts of Chalcedon, my friend. Then come back. Please do it. Then come back. Unless you are Oriental Orthodox, the “Pope” of Alexandria is just an ignorant statement you made - far beyond what you understand both of ecclesiology or ecclesiastical history - just to be anti-Catholic.
Greetings from Brazil.
The Eastern Orthodox churches have the apostolic successions and are also very much closely aligned in theology and practice of Sacraments with each other and with the Latin Church, variation in cultural presentations have always been part of the Church, including variations in local traditions; this happens in the Roman Catholic Church as well to a certain degree, especially in contrast with the Eastern Catholic rites. I think the problem is just the Apostolic authority, which rightfully belongs to the successor of St. Peter, the Bishop of Rome, which the Orthodox churches are not in full communion with; and also because the schism has occurred for a very long time, the "lost communion" time gap is huge and there are quite a number of things to be "synchronized" before full communion between Rome and Eastern Orthodox churches can be re-established. I think the division is more political and cultural than it is in matters of faith and life of the Church.
Just my own thoughts on the matter.
You can't escape politics, probably our fallen human nature, but disagreements are mainly and more importantly theological
Yes
@Ameya Anu To not accept authority of bishops is to not accept the authority of Jesus, it's clear from the Gospel writings, Letters, and also from the earliest Church fathers.
Orthodoxy is the way. All this catholic coping is really starting to get tiresome. Oh well, we'll be here waiting.
@@karkkimarkkinat2109 ok orthobro
I’m an Orthodox Son of a Greek father, And the catholic son of a Scottish mother. I went to a Catholic school and I go to a catholic church every Sunday, almost every Sunday. I love them both I pray to lord Jesus. I go to confession in the Catholic Church, I’d get married in a Catholic Church and when I find my resting place it will be in the Catholic Church. I’ve said it publicly now it’s not taking sides it’s just what I am Joyce I have made. Amen
A public statement that the Religion he chose is the religion of one of his parents and not a decision he made based on what god/s can be demonstrated to exist. An honest theist position.
@@giuseppesavaglio8136 no.
@@mirnomore591 Explain your, no.
No to what?
Well said! I’m publishing a weekly TH-cam video on episodes from the life of Don Bosco, entitled ST JOHN BOSCO by JOE ZAMMIT. In this series I’m narrating events and miracles from the splendid life of Don Bosco. St John Bosco used to perform a miracle almost every day, through the intercession of Mary Help of Christians. From the lives of saints we can learn how to love God more and draw closer to him. Thank you.
That's unfortunate
I really enjoy these discussions. Thanks Matt, for the very enlightening conversations about Catholicism. God bless everyone!
To be fair, a lot of the early churches were regional churches, in other words; ethnic. (by in large)
@zedd They act like it though. You could have two different orthodox churches on the same street which is waste of recourses and a duplication if they really are one church.
Church of Rome
of Rome
>>Rome
NOPE WE AIN'T ETHNIC
@@jaqian Go to Minneapolis and see how close the Maronite and Ukrainian Catholic parishes are. Go on. Go. If you don't live there take a little look-see on Google Maps. What a "waste of resources!" Again your bullsh*t falls on your own pate.
@@pdstor The Catholic Apostolic Church of Rome is not ethnic but rather "catholic" as it is the only one that gathers members from ALL across the world under one and the same doctrine (that is not the case with other churches, including protestants). Africa, Europe, South, Central and North America, Asia... This is not ethnic, it is universal. Now I do agree that it is unfair to call our sisters and brothers Orthodoxes separatists since it is a matter of jurisdiction. But one need to agree with the fact that the Church of Rome, with all its flaws, is truly universal. One day catholics and orthodoxes will get back together anyway.
@@flisom I'm not sure you'll see the same degree of difference between a Polish Catholic church and a German Catholic one as between a Russian or a Greek church. In all cases, it will be mostly the language though.
Please have a longer discussion about this. This is so important to those of us who are discerning between Orthodoxy and Catholicism! 🙏🙏
@joaquimsh6989 Thank you so much for this pointer! I had never heard of him, but thanks to you, I looked him up and read an article based on his work. So good!! Update: I became Catholic at the Easter Vigil! Jimmy Akin and Michael Lofton's pro-Catholic arguments were enough to convince me. Going to Mass every day and loving it, and haven't looked back! Thanks again for recommending Vladimir Soloviev
I'm eagerly waiting for you guys to do another full hour breaking down Orthodoxy vs Catholicism according to Dr Hahn.
Yes i would love that.
There are four marks of the true Church. They are one, holy, catholic (universal) and apostolic. If you find them in a Church, that means you’ve found the true Church. When Dr. Hahn mentioned his leeriness about denominations/“denominationals” (Orthodox Churches), he was speaking of non-oneness of these Churches.
On the Immaculate Conception: “Hail full of grace,” said the Angel Gabriel to Mary. Who else was mentioned in the Bible as “full of grace” but Jesus Himself in John 1. Although Jesus is God and Mary is just God’s creation, she’s God’s special creation to bring about the salvation of man.
@OrthodoxyChloroQuine , what’s in a name? A rose with whatever name you call it, is still a rose.
@OrthodoxyChloroQuine , and as to the universality of the Orthodox Church? Christ commanded his apostles to preach to all nations.
I am trying to find my way. I genuinely love orthodox - I disagree with just barely a handful of things…. But the fact that Jesus named Simon Peter when He met him, then told Peter he would be the foundation - it speaks to me beyond anything else.
Praying for your peace! from a happy Catholic.
Like somebody said in another comment, Jesus also told Peter go behind me Satan. It would be to simplistic to have this in mind only that Jesus named Peter His stone. Besides, jesus was clear that they should not be one above the other/bigger than another.
Also, the Catholics started to bring Innovations to "the Church of Peter" after more than 1000 years, and thanks to those innovation the Original Church had to split, and from the Catholic church split till today over 45-47.000 new Christian churches, they all brought innovations to innovations...think you have on big drop of incense essential oil that splits in two, and to one half you add over 45.000 drops of sunflower oil in 700 years or so...what do you think its left of that essential oil of incense... I would say not much at all... while eastern orthodoxy added nothing but more essential oil of incense to its own 50% of the drop... Orthodoxy is great! Stay strong with the help of God!
Please do several more hours on this whole topic ♥️
Scott Hahn was a huge part of my learning apostolic faith re: sacraments in my teen years. Later, it was a very non-ethnic Orthodox parish that catechized & chrismated me. I’ve never regretted it.
Is this the one in Riverside CA? It's the only one that I've personally confirmed as fairly non ethnic. Perhaps it takes a former Presbyterian from Pasadena to make that happen; Despite that, he does speak with the cadence of a Greek monk.
@@theamericancristero7390 No, I’m not in CA. Post OCA parishes by now aren’t very ethnic. Not that it matters much: The mysteries are the mysteries; the faith is the faith. Plenty of Lutheran, Baptist & Catholic parishes were ethnic until the settled.
@@traceyedson9652 i think there’s a difference between ethic churches as in a local church body is made up of a certain ethnicity and the sense that the faith itself is defined by ethnicity.
@@l21n18 true but I’ve never met an orthodox who believed the faith was defined by ethnicity, at the very most there may be slight traditions and namely the language the liturgy is performed in, that is defined by ethnicity. The only reason we have “ethnic” “denominations” in the Orthodox Church is because of immigration and it’s primarily only seen in America where there is such a diversity of ethnicities but elsewhere in the west where ethnic diversity has become commonplace. Just as Tracey pointed out, they aren’t much different than the ethnic Catholic and Protestant churches of a few centuries ago, they just never dropped the titles of Greek or Russian but in most cases now perform the liturgy in English and have very little if any differences, especially not theological ones.
@@giannobong6778 I think there is a massive difference
I do love the orthodox church but as an English guy living in London completely understand the point about the churches being ethnic and not as easy to merge with
Yep! I live in northamptonshire and once asked a local Greek Prthodox church if I could attend. They wanted to know how much Greek I knew and also wanted to interview me before they would even let me through the doors!!
That's odd.
They shouldn't be asking that.
Im half greek and romanian orthodox, is not ethnic 100% we all are brothers în comunion but from different countries.
Interestingly enough, there are now two new Orthodox mission parishes in my town. One celebrates and gathers at the prayer chapel of my Catholic parish and the other gathers at the fellowship hall of a Lutheran church. It warms my heart and I hope to witness the union of Catholics and Orthodox.
I think all Catholics and Orthodox should desire reunion, even if it's extremely unlikely to happen.
But technically didn't already happened with the Catholics of Eastern Rite?
This video barely scratches the surface!!!!! I want to hear more of Dr Hahn’s thoughts, and also Matt’s, since he had attended a Byzantine church in the Atlanta area (where a friend of mine is pastor) for awhile!
Scott is not a Catholic spokesperson.
@@maxsmith695 huh?
God bless all my brothers and sisters, regardless of denominations.
I almost became Coptic Orthodox but I can also attest that it is in fact a cultural Christian religion. Don’t get me wrong, it is beautiful. But it’s like you also have to learn about a whole new culture and not just the religious part. I’m sure it’s the same for Greek Orthodox. Whereas, as a Roman Catholic, it does not contain its own “culture.” I guess you can say it has a Roman Latin flavor which any country can adopt, which the world has indeed done so.
"Greek Orthodox" is not the name of a faith tradition. It's just one flavor among many of what is generally called "Eastern Orthodoxy". Sometimes ethnic expressions dominate, but these particular churches are not essentially ethnic. Take the ancient patriarchates for example. They are commonly called "Greek Orthodox" (e.g., "the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria"), but "Greek" is actually a translation of "Rum" which means Roman. Greeks are at the forefront of the ancient patriarchates, but that is not the principle constituting them. Rather, they were founded as regional churches of the Empire. The Church of Cyprus makes this clearer. Greeks are the majority, but clearly it's a regional church. The newer patriarchates were organized on a political basis, according to nation-states. It's not an ethnic thing, but rather a national one. The Orthodox Church in America is a great example of how the organizational principle is fundamentally regional or national, and not ethnic. The Orthodox Church has actually officially condemned a heresy called "ethnophyletism", which is a heresy that wished to defend ethnicity as the principle of ecclesiastical organization.
Full disclosure, I was born in the US to parents of non-Russian European heritage and I am an Orthodox Christian in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, so my opinion is obviously biased, but what is so undesirable about learning something new? Our liturgies are about 90% in English, but the Slavonic parts aren't exactly a secret and make the Russian speakers happy, so we all win. On the other hand, your assessment of Roman Catholic Christianity is formed entirely from within cultures that was already shaped by it; it is neither neutral, nor invisible, nor more adaptable than any other set of traditions!
There are 24 Oriental and Eastern Rites in union with Rome.
Catholic does contain its own culture since most of the country don't have any Latin influences in their own culture.Also,Coptic Orthodox is not Eastern Orthodox but Oriential Orthodox,they split from the church in the 5th century,way before the Catholic.
Yeah I bet you Westoids shudder at the thought of being cultured lol
I was raised Catholic and I remember in CCD class they told us Jesus was Catholic but never mentioned that he was JEWish. Every time I’d leave a Catholic mass it was wham bam 50 mins and out no Bible study no sense of community. Years later and I am now a devout Greek Orthodox they have everything that I was looking for. I’m just sharing my experience, now very fulfilled and 100 percent back to Jesus and I praise the orthodox church for it everyday.
That wasn't a Roman Catholic Church.
@@kevinphillips150 what are you trying to say? What isn’t a Roman Catholic Church? How would you even know when I’m sharing my life experience, unless you are otherwise privileged to info about this that I don’t know.
@@csterling77 My experience was different. I mean every Catholic mass they read from the Bible and they never stop you from studying it either since the Bible can be easily obtained from anywhere. And whether I attended a RC mass in Polish or English or went to a Ukrainian Greek Catholic divine liturgy down the street, there was always community.
can someone explain to him that the Orthodox churches are called Greek or Russian because they are located on the territory of Russia and Greece (roughly speaking, this is an administrative division ), not because it is a church for Russians or Greeks. For example the Russian Orthodox Church is native for two hundred nationalities(sorry for my bad english)
I'm Romanian and take communion at a Greek church, and can do the same for a Russian one. The only annoying thing is the language barrier, but it's no different than an Italian going to a Polish church. If you know the liturgy, you know what's happening (and when and why).
Peasants across the Catholic world didn't speak Latin, but that didn't stop them from partaking in the sacraments before Vatican II made the vernacular acceptable.
Спасиба, Иван!!!
His refutation is seriously flawed because of his definition of denominationalism; & we don’t NEED to concern ourselves with the filioque because even certain post-schismatic Catholic Saints (eg. Bernard of Clairvaux) wrote tomes AGAINST its addition to the Creed. Even the plates of the Creed in Latin at the gates to the Vatican are VOID of the very word filioque!!! And I too am a former Protestant (baptized Presbyterian in my infancy then became a Quaker in my early adulthood) who came to ☦️; and the ethnicities of the many Orthodox churches actually drew me TOWARD Orthodoxy, not away from it as it seemed to have Dr. Hahn.
And since today is Holy Thursday for the Orthodox; I’m GLAD that I chose to come to Orthodoxy from Swarthmoor Hall & Penn’s Landing via the Street called Straight back in 2001. I’m about as Anglo-Saxon as they come, with added traces of Pictish, Celtic, Gallic, Baltic-Slavic & North American Aboriginal extraction; yet found the local Antiochian parish in my hometown as being fully welcoming of my eclectic ethnic mix (The Syrians & Italians wound up commingling on many occasions & we have had kibble sales & spaghetti dinners as go-to fundraisers for over 25 years); and I’m SO sad to be in northern GA due south of Chattanooga TN this year & am missing Great Friday Matins with the 12 Passion Gospels right now!!!
@@heli0s101 Europe as medieval Catholics where Latin is the only language means majority of the peasants don't understand a thing. They saw the church as some obligatory ritual. This became an issue and caused rise of Protestantism. Pope hates it when Bosnian church tried to use their own language, and the populace became staunchly Bogomils. Isolated by both Orthodox and Catholics, they became Muslim under the Ottomans.
Orthodoxy belief are autocephalous, and more varied from Greek, Slavonic, Aramaic, Syriac etc, so I get the gist that common people had more understanding of it. Of couse this is not the same as most eastern churches of Miaphysites/Monothelites/Nestorian, who regularly had their own language in communion accross Egypt to Syria.
I am Catholic and I agree with you. This reminds me of when St Paul said in 1 Corinthians 1, verse 12-13 “ I mean that each of you are saying,” I belong to Paul,” or “ I belong to Apollos,” or “ I belong to Cephas,” or “ I belong to Christ.” Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? Here in America the church said we can receive Holy Communion in The Orthodox Church in the East so we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
Ivan - I wish it was that simple. Im Polish live in Poland born and risen roman catholic who after long research decided orthodix church is the true church. I want to convert and baptise my little son in Eastern orthodox. However, guess what the local priest (batiushka) I contacted is very reluctant on this matter because here in Poland in orthodox church is predominantly ukrainian, bielarussian and small tiny percent Russians minority. Generally - they dont like Polish, they dont welcome us in their orthodox parishes althouh the whole thing happenning on the territory of Poland! I guess I have no choice but sadly to stay in Roman catholic church.
Good quick discussion on some major topics. Thanks.
-An Orthodox brother in Christ.
Surprised by Hahn’s answer. What he says is almost exactly why I think the Filioque is *wrong* - “sending into the world” is different from “proceeding eternally as the Trinity”. Two different matters entirely. Hence we are limited to what Jesus says, and He says explicitly that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, not “from us”.
Thanks for clearly stating what should be obvious (eternal procession not temporal is what's at issue here). And we can't know anything about the eternal process? Really? Anyone ever hear about the early Councils or the Nicene Creed?
Also Jesus said my spirit about the Holy spirit, I recommend you to read the Trinity explanation of Thomas d'Aquin explaining why filioque is ttue
The Triumph of Our Lady's Immaculate Heart will at long last bring an end to the Schism
@1woksape Yup, the Church is certainly undergoing its Passion now, but like its Head will Triumph in the end!
@OrthodoxyChloroQuine Nobody is talking about body parts as such, in tge sense of in detachment from the Spiritual. Sacred Heart of Jesus = Love of God, Immaculate Heart of Mary = Our Lady's Sinless soul from Conception (which you guys believed it too under different names until the Catholic Church dogmatised it in 1854, then did a 180).
Just like Our Lord's Redemption by His Passion and Crucifixion is associated with The Precious Blood.
Fatima and all other approved apparitions are recognised only after thorough investigation (not to mention the Miracle of the Sun in the case of Fatima). Mind you part of the message has been fulfilled, since Russia came back to Christianity
@OrthodoxyChloroQuine Never said Worship, veneration doesn't equal adoration (just like we don't worship icons and saints). Reparation for the offenses against her Immaculate Heart = blasphemies against her Perpetual Virginity, Divine Maternity (Theotokos), Immaculate Conception etc. All definitive teachings (Dogmas) of the Church, to deny them equals blasphemy which angers Our Lord, especially because it's concerning His Mother. True it's a Private revelation that is however approved by the Church, yes it's not De Fide, but its message is related to what the Church teaches about Mary, about the need for repentance and about the many Graces which may be obtained through recitation of The Holy Rosary, to simply disregard it is most imprudent and I think unwise (especially considering the Third Secret, which includes a great Apostasy from The Faith, is being fulfilled before our very eyes).
God Bless
@OrthodoxyChloroQuine Right, statues are from Exodus (graven images of cherubim near the ark). I've explained the point of reparation, it's for violating Church teachings concerning Mary represented under the Devotional title of the Immaculate Heart, not to Mary independent of Christ
You managed to state so much, but said nothing.
That Orthodoxy is ethnic was what stopped me from becoming Orthodox. I am a Westerner and former Anglo Catholic., well as a Canonical Hermit in the Catholic Church. In looking at the all too apparent disunity of the various autocephalous churches I found a community, haven and home as a Catholic.
Polish Catholics? Filipino Catholics? Have you seen how ethnic are they?
@@symphonymph3562 indeed they have their respective entnicity into the faith, being Catholic doesnt take that away as the church recognizes how it helped form their Catholic faith historically. Communion with the successor of St. Peter is what makes unity in diversity and diversity in universality. Im speaking as a Filipino Catholic. Blessings to you!
@@shepherdson6189 Well, if that's the case, then why some have claimed that the Orthodox Churches are somehow problematic by doing the same thing?
@@symphonymph3562 there's a difference, the ethnic tradition does not go above the universal tradition and one of it is being united with the Pope, the successor to the seat of Peter.
@@shepherdson6189 You're actually making a contradiction here. Do you know the true meaning of the Greek term "Catholic"?
Amongst those who call themselves theologians, Alexei Khomiakov explained the proper understanding of the word "καθολικός" (katholikos: universal) which derived from "καθόλου" (katholou: according to the whole) A great saint and another theologian as well, Saint Hieromartyr Hilarion Troitsky followed the line of Khomiakov.
So, what kind of "Universality" the term "Catholic" actually bears?
Generally speaking and seeing over the big concept, there are three seemingly closely similar and resembling, even identical, yet principally diverging strands/methods of interpretation of that particular term "καθολικός"...
1. Kata-holou: (One same faith) According to the whole. According to the understanding of all within her unity.
2. Kata-monou: (One same faith) According to one man.
3. Kata-ekastou: According to every individual (each one in the role of their own, each one with ideas, understanding and interpretations of their own).
Those are the basic keys of understanding.
To even more so benefit us in clarity, take a look at the example of the Slavonic or Russian translation (and this was even before the schism) of the original Greek Creed for the line: "εἰς μίαν ἁγίαν καθολικὴν καὶ ἀποστολικὴν ἐκκλησίαν", which would be "Во едину святую, соборную и Апостольскую Церковь". Here, the word "καθολικὴν" (katholikin) is translated as "соборную" (sobornuyu), meaning conciliar/collegial. Clearly, not a unilateral decision.
So the term "Catholic" in its true sense and meaning, is the unity in one same faith according to the whole universal Church, not the unilateral faith/decision/action of one figure. Do you understand that the Universal Church is not only and solely Rome alone? That the Universal Church does not equal Rome? Rather, the Church of Rome was initially a part of the much larger Universal Church?
Looking at it from the opposite point of view, it is Rome who has been and is being different from the rest of the Universal Church, from which it has left.
Orthodox liturgy and tradition is so beautiful
Praying for Unity
Hey Aquinas if you're listening. I would love to hear a discussion between Scott Hahn and Francis Chan. Both are talking about unity within the church and the issues with the many denominations.
I'm still waiting on a Part 2 on this topic, and difference between Oriental vs. Eastern Orthodoxy.
That's why Eastern Orthodox is so beautiful, each country has its own identity but at the same time the same belief, in the perfect image of the Holy Trinity, each person has its own identity and are all one thru the common nature! ❤
I am a cradle Catholic and still am very much so, being born in Portugal and moving to the U.S. as a child, having moved around in the U.S., Europe and Asia.
The speaker that Mr. Fradd is essentially saying saying that "Orthodoxy" is centered around ethnicities.
Being Catholic I'd like to argue that we are also guilty of the same thing, in the U.S. there are Portuguese Catholic Churches which were very
passive aggressive against non-Portuguese, as well as Irish, Italian, Polish Catholic Churches that I visited.
This is not to say that al ALL Catholic Churches and their communities are like this, many were also very welcoming of me.
I have also seen the same with Orthodox in which they are wary of outsiders, but there are also those who are multicultural. The Antiochian Orthodox Churches I have visited are actually
the MOST multi-ethnic and multilingual communities I have visited. Even at an Romanian Orthodox Church near my home now in Japan, there are Irish, Brazilian, Canadian and Japanese instead of just Romanian. There is a Filipino Catholic Church near my home as well, and I have actually been told my the priest before the Mass "you will not understand what is going on, the Mass is in Tagalog, not English, so you don't need to be here". I responded "The Mass is the Mass, it is the same in any language unless you are hiding something".
I took this in 2 ways, he is concerned that I wouldn't understand and thought I would be confused by the language, despite the signs clearing saying "Tagalog Mass at 1pm". OR
He did not want me there as I looked like an outsider. I can only pray that he meant the first, which would make more sense.
I think that people can point their finger at the Orthodox church and say "you are focused on your own ethnicity" simply because of the name of that body. i.e/ Russian or Greek Orthodox, etc.
Actually, I think the reason why that many of these Orthodox and Catholic churches cling to their identity, especially in different countries like America, is because the original immigrant community wants to protect and strengthen their culture in their new home. For example, my Greek friend went to a "Greek School" to learn Greek after his Divine Liturgy at his Greek Orthodox Church.
Does this mean he is a Greek nationalist or his Church is? He is a proud American, but he is able to identify with his heritage. The exact same happened with me as a child with "Portuguese school" after Catholic Mass and Catechism class.
Finally, can we also not say the same about our Eastern Catholic brothers, the Melkite Greek Catholics, the Romanian Greek Catholics, Ruthenian Catholics, Russian Greek Catholics? Do they have no right to hold onto their ethnicity? Mr. Fradd if I am not mistaken, attends a Ruthenian Catholic parish (According to another video of his), but he may (or may have) Central/Eastern European heritage.
In conclusion, both Catholics and Orthodox Churches have communities that still hold very close bonds with their communities' ethnic homelands, and BOTH Orthodox and Catholics should be very wary to avoid the heresy of Phyletism (my country/language is considered Divine by God), which is condemned in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church.
In truth I still believe we are all united in Christ and I pray that one day in the end, we all realize that we are all just saying the same thing, and that we should not make such claims without examining ourselves first, which is the lesson from "John 8:7"
The original ethnic community that brought their faith to a new home/ the New World(the Americas) is not necessarily the same community that will be there 100 years later, it might be, but it may also not be, depending on the circumstances. I think we can all take solace in "Revelation 7:9" where people of all nations will stand before the Throne of God. I think there was a protestant pastor on youtube that was talking about "This is not a white man's religion, nor a black man's religion, it's a WORLD religion, Christ was born in the part of the world that touches Europe, Africa and Asia."
So I am happy to see many ethnicities in both the Catholic and Orthodox Church.
manthe orthodox church is not ethnic you said about roman church let me tell you this what vatican church do to us they take our land they destroyed our church and by the way catholic is grreek term the greek called them catholic but us romanwde cant because is create a confusion so please never they orthodox is ethnic i am romania if i go in serbian or greek church is the same ritula only language is diffrent
@@cglegionar3383 Yes that is the same point I said in my comment, I agree that The Orthodox Church isn’t centered on ethnicity. Did you mean to reply to someone else?
you said multi etnhnic
what is for you mean multi-ethnic and ethnicity
@@TheDinosaurHead you said mult-etnnic then you said to you that you are not said about etnnicity is very strange this and hard to undersand
Did you ever do another episode that went in these topics? It's incredibly important to go into the more esoteric things because it's where the beauty of Catholicism outshines the problems of modernity.
The argument that the Orthodox are "too ethnic" is not very valid at all. The Eastern Catholic Churches are just as ethnic as the Orthodox.
@Thomist in a Teapot If only his comment were as clear as yours.
You are right it is the simmilar in the Catholic Church.
@Thomist in a Teapot I understand that. I'm Ukrainian Catholic myself. I just don't think it does justice when apologists say they didn't become Orthodox because the Orthodox are too ethnic. Let's get into more substantial issues.
As of now, there's a Schism between the Russians and Constantinople. What does this mean in terms of ecclesiology, salvation, etc? Absolutely nothing, because you can literally be in Schism among fellow EO and still be EO. Similarly, their Council of Crete in 2016 was signed by all the Patriarchs except the Russians, and that was sufficient to invalidate the Council. Kinda strange that in the early Church, the odd man out was the heretic at a Council, while in EO the odd man out basically holds trump power. And the amount of power and territory which the Russians hold is far more than the EO ever allege Rome as holding in the early Church. The Russians basically claim authority over all Russia, Ukraine, the Baltics, and both North and South America simply because one Russian visited Alaska once.
@Thomist in a Teapot
They are also schisms in the Catholic Church.
I am a Greek Orthodox planning to officially convert to Catholicism (I have been attending my whole life but not officially a member yet) - there are Catholic denominations that are unknown to Europeans and Americans, I have been attending a Greek/Byzantine Catholic Church my whole life and that’s what I plan to convert to, there’s Maronite Catholics, Armenian Catholics and so much more !
@matt Fradd . Would it be possible to invite Scott Hahn back for a talk on the Filoque at least and the Immaculate Conception if possible (at best ?) Thank you so much!
Orthodoxy is not totalitarian and it's hard to believe this is a drawback. Greek Orthodox church doesn't impose its language on every other orthodox church, just like the Catholics do with Latin and the Muslims with Arab, and this is a great thing! Pluralism and democracy are our best features, not our signs of weakness over Catholicism 🤣🤗❤️✝️⛪🇬🇷
agreed, Scott does talk rubbish sometimes (plus the author he recommends is a big 'no no' who believes that the TLM WAS abrogated!)
Democracy can hardly be considered a pro in any context because it is not good. Rather, not as good as a central authority
@@jonphinguyen if your religion says your Pope is infallible it's natural not to appreciate democracy
@@ΑθανάσιοςΚΥΡΙΑΚΟΠΟΥΛΟΣ-θ7γ infallible in doctrinal teachings you mean
@@jonphinguyen this distinction doesn't make him less of an arrogant heretic
I wish more traditional Protestants would get involved in these discussions. In my mind there's as much difference between Evangelicalism and Protestantism as there is between Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
If you're looking for rich liturgy, the Eucharist, Creeds, psalm chant/psalmody, etc. you'll find it in Protestantism but not Evangelicalism.
Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death, Amen!
With respect, Dr. Hahn’s oversimplification of Orthodoxy as “ethnic” betrays his ignorance and thin experience. In America, a country of immigrants from multiple diasporas, Orthodoxy does have churches that are ethnically based (as do catholic parishes, synagogues, etc), but also the Orthodox Church in America and plenty of parishes that have less of an ethnic basis. He seems also to completely ignore the existence of African orthodoxy. There are Orthodox in Kenya, Ethiopia, Egypt, Libya…also the Malankara in India, etc etc etc. The whole point of the body of Christ is that it is global, and will always take on the culture it emerges in. Hash it out about the filioque, but don’t indulge a stereotype because “you know a guy.”
Precisely. This is like the difference between Irish, German, and Hispanic Catholics.
The Catholic Church has 24 different rites. But over 90% follow the Roman rite. The other rites are mostly Eastern Catholics who are basically like Orthodox rites of different nations but in communion with Rome. The ubiquity of Roman Catholic Churches makes it possible for anybody from any part of the world to find a Roman Catholic Church and feel at home which may not be the case with Eastern Churches following the Orthodox type traditions because such Churches may not be available at many places around the world. So, the Roman rite is truly universal and easily accessible for all ethnicities.
If they want an ethnic church:
Polish cardinal, Karol Josef Wojtyla, was elected the 263rd successor to St Peter. becoming the first non-Italian pope in 455 years.
yeah and same ethnicity pope for 500 years hahaha good joke@@mantrik007
I am an Eastern Orthodox from Sweden and we have many Orthodox churches, from Serbia, Greek, Russia, Finland, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukrainian etc. They have been here for a generation. They have many bishops each claiming jurisdiction over the same land area. They have NOT married the culture and they have been here for a generation. I have great difficulty finding a service that me and my family can understand. It’s all done in - for us - foreign languages. Look to the Philippines where the Russia and Constantinople have started parishes. These two are not in communion. My own parish is Russian (i.e Russian Tradition) and hails back to the year 1617, I.e more than 400 years ago. Are they using the language of the land after 400 years? No, with the exception of once a month. So many Orthodox people are always give out textbook answers. Hahn knows what’s in the textbook! That’s not the issue. Everything is not like it is in the US because you are all immigrants basically since the nation was founded. Look at Africa where the Russians are trying to grab a bit of Alexandrias jurisdiction, that’s why they also are not in communion. Unity they have not, ethnicity they have. African Orthodoxy, are you kidding? The Orthodoxy they have now in Africa came from people sent out from an already existing church and in some cases, as we have read about, causes jurisdictional schisms because the control of the church, the unity is only on paper. I suppose they use the local languages in these foreign lands, I suppose they have too but the issue of jurisdiction - who decides who goes where - is still there. New Rome is weak, Russia has the upper hand. Russia will not listen to Constantinople or the smaller Patriarchates, they’ll do as they think is best. I have the experience from my country, I am living through it. That’s why I am planning to convert. It’s because of the fact that we Orthodox are chasing out own tail and everywhere you look there’s a lot of textbook answers. Look at the calendar issue, one my street we have two Orthodox churches within 150 meters from each other and we can’t even celebrate the same persons, events or feast at the same time. When the Greeks eat Christmas dinner, we fast. When the Finnish celebrated Palm Sunday we celebrated
the Sunday of Orthodoxy. And then we Orthodox pretend we are one united church?
I also converted from Greek Orthodoxy, which I was baptized in. I found the way popes and others spoke before the Great Schism to be way way more in line with how the modern day papacy speaks and operates. Patriarch Barthlomew is simply given nowhere the same level authority as pre-schism popes even though he was supposed to take over their spot of primacy.
Catholics are pagans. Escape the cult before it is too late.
Agree, history shows the Pope having greater authority than the patriarchs. Each patriarch is the leader of an ethic or cultural church, but not usually the leader of the Church in it’s entirety.
The only "authority" the "pope" has is from Satan Himself. He needs to be born again and so do you (John 3)
@@PR-cq4zc
Go fawn over your Alberto Comics, the Grownups are talking.
@@loganw1232
It’s an artificial “supremacy” grown by the Carolingians for their advantage. The Patriarchates are a Confederated Hierarchy, of which the Pope was more like the Chairman of up to 800, when bad ideas began to accumulate due to various innocent mistakes and deliberate intrigues.
But this confederation is a better system in the long term, ESPECIALLY if the Pope actually is NOT mandated “Supreme” by God.
With out a top-down hierarchy, Globalist modernizers cannot infiltrate any one head and then poison the whole body. If they taint one patriarch, we cut it from us as one amputates a gangrenous limb to save the body.
It seems ethnic because immigrants from Orthodox countries came to the United States and would form churches to serve their communities. Greeks and Russians also did not have the numbers to reinforce their presence early on(they already had come later than the Catholics), causing this ethnic, foreign feeling. The Churches reflected the people they mainly served, including having customs. Of course, there is a problem with how some stay in the Church more as an ethnic club than a Church, but that’s a problem with the individual, and not the Church.
Edit: Now I believe that the change that needs to be put in place is for the churches to return to Rome. I recant that previous opinion.
No, it's ethnic because the churches are arranged as such in their home countries. It's nothing more than caesaropapism without a Caesar. Incidentally, those deep cultural ties -are- were the only thing holding them together for so many years without the centralized authority of our Magisterium. That's beginning to break apart in a bad way, and it will only get worse, at least until the schism is healed. We can see that it the recent array of schisms between the Greek and Russian factions of Orthodoxy. Furthermore, what's happening now? The East is inheriting the most visibly divisive elements of Roman Catholicism. If they don't go sedevacantist, they go Orthodox, and they will wreak just as much havoc in the East as they have in the West. It may take a dozen or so years, but you mark my words! What happens when disobedient schismatics rise against a weak power structure? More theological chaos! I pray everyday for reunification, and so should the Orthodox, because without it, they're heading for a big storm.
Interesting discussion. Much respect and gratitude for our Orthodox brothers and sisters.
I feel that argument is pretty week actually. Traditionally the bishops from different regions would come to councils to represent that area. So if you where from Antioch. You would be the bishop of Antioch. It doesn’t make you a denomination. On the higher levels there are arguements between like patriarch of Russia vs Constantinople because of war etc. but a Russian orthodox going to a Greek Orthodox is the same. Its not like going from a prodestant Baptist church to a charismatic. And the filoque is weak too because everybody got together in councils to discus these things but Roman bishop changed to without consulting anyone. So it’s authority issue. You can sometimes think your right about something but you should consult the others in case you are wrong. That’s what the prodestants do. Making themselves thousands of mini popes interpreting and re interpreting scripture by what it means to them and disregarding the councils and creeds before them.
For 1000 years, East and West, with many of the same differences that we can note today (eg Filioque), were in communion, with Westerners taking leavened communion in Eastern churches and Easterners taking unleavened communion in Western churches. Something to remember.
Very refreshing commentary and apparently too candid for many here...
Matt Frad made a great point when He said that Eastern ( Oriental Rite) Catholics have a proclivity of accepting Orthodox Church teachings( such as denial of the Filioque) and denial of the Catholic Church teachings ( such as denial of the BVM's Immaculate Conception).
The thought ocurred to me Aren't the 22 or 23 particular Eastern Catholic Churches (all under the Papal umbrella) ethnic?
yes they are but don't expect poor Scott Hahn to think of that
Yes lol, even more ethnic by and large and more phyletic
My priest recommended I watch Dr. Hahn, then this came up. God is Good.
Dang. That's a really good point. What do you do if you agree with Orthodox theology, Catholic unity, Protestant freedom, and recognize the inherent Jewish-ness of canon? Theological Schizophrenia?
Huh. The Orthodox parish closest to me is Antiochian, and I felt very welcome there. The liturgy was 99% in English (a few lines were English, then repeated in Greek, then in Arabic), and I didn't notice anything that seemed particularly "Antiochian" to me with regard to ethnicity or culture. Their sister parish in the area is an OCA (Orthodox Church in America) parish; they even sometimes have their priests sub for one another as needed.
I always had a lot of interest in the Orthodox Church. I started attending an Orthodox Church in America congregation. During the year I attended, I took 2 free evening classes and went to Divine Liturgy every Sunday. I found the various Orthodox Churches throughout the world to be in constant disagreement and fighting with one another. There was supposed to be a world wide Pan-Orthodox meeting several years ago...and several of the autocephalous orthodox churches refused to attend it. The priest at the church where I attended would string people along and refuse to take people into the church after years. After a year, I stopped going. I honestly don't want to see another icon in my life. The bully priest sent me an email telling me that I would make a good Orthodox Christian and I should come back. I told him no. I have two former Presbyterian friends. They both became Catholic years ago and they are so, so happy with decision.
Why am I a Catholic and not an Orthodox? Simple. Orthodox didn't bother about us. Being from a small island in the middle of the ocean, it's the Catholics (and the Protestants) missionaries who risk their lives to reach us to bring the Gospel. If not for these missionaries I would probably be out raiding another island while the Orthodox would still be nitpicking and over scrupulously debating within themselves over some issues they consider much more important than my salvation.
I am biased, of course, but the reasons given do not seem very strong, especially the 'national' thing. I am a Greek Orthodox but can go into any Church (Russian, Serbian, American, Japanese etc) and get communion and confess etc, I have done so, exactly as I would in any Greek Orthodox Church. The "national Church" argument I have been hearing for so long, has frankly become very tiresome and outdated. We can talk about many other things, but that is not one of them. It is like listening to the age-old Protestant argument that Catholics and Orthodox 'worship' idols when they venerate icons. Come on guys, you can do better than that. God bless you and have a strong Lent.
That’s a fair point, although I would ask if Greek and Russian orthodox are in union currently? Thanks for your thoughts and charitable nature! God Bless you sir🙏🏼💙🤝
Actually as orthodox, you cant commune in every orto church
I agree with you brother and I'm Byzantine Catholic. We need to get into substantial debate and not always go the ethnic route. My church...the Ukrainian Catholic Church is super ethnic. The Roman Catholics in the early 20th century were super ethnic as well. If you were Italian you didn't go to the Polish parish.
@@petars4444 You can, my friend. God bless you
@@stutterstudios4731 Yes, currently the Russian and Greek Orthodox Churches are in communion. The Russian Orthodox Church is at odds with the Patriarch of Constantinople over the Ukrainian issue, although to be honest, I do not know if that fallout has resulted in any ex-communication or affected the laypeople (i.e Russians, or those under the Patriarchate's jurisdictions) in terms of their receiving Holy Mysteries in the other Church. God bless you too, sir. Churches falling out with each other is nothing new in the long history of the Church. It is, unfortunately, a fact of our fallen nature and the result of political intrigues and the attempt by secular states to influence religion, regardless of whether you are Catholic or Orthodox.
Orthodox was THE church for 1000 years before the split, it just didn't need that name since it was the one and only "THE CHURCH".
Greetings to my Orthodox friends, as a Catholic I deeply love y'all.
Then take out the filioque and tell the pope to stop corrupting your Church.
Don’t waste time.
@Pachagucci He loves me, sure, but he does not love Christianity if he supports idolatry like this. This is not a "non issue" this is a schism that has permanent marks on the church.
If anything you are one of the hypocrites of our century.
@@cxarhomell5867 we are all hypocrites and sinners. You have sins too like us
@@Athleta_Christi We're not all hypocrites, no. We're all imperfect and sometimes do sin and we ask for forgiveness, sure, but we are all not hypocrites.
To be a hypocrite, one must fully know and understand what he's doing that makes him a hypocrite.
are you sure you are a catholic?
There is an ongoing dialogue between orthodox and roman catholic. It is not impossible that we will be united again as one. We shared alot of similarities and alot of differences. But not impossible.
Catholicism can be just as 'ethnic' as Orthodoxy (Croatian Catholic churches, Polish Catholic churches, etc. exist and at one time were the norm). Also, the Nicene Creed is written in the halls of the Vatican WITHOUT the filioque and numerous popes have recited the Creed without the filioque. It is Latin innovation, pure and simple.
There is no such thing as a "Croatian Catholic church", and there is especially no such thing as "Croatian Catholic churcheS".
@@ana-7903 in my hometown there is an Armenian Catholic church, a Roman catholic church and an eastern Catholic church. There is a church in downtown Denver literally called holy saints, martyred Polish, Catholic Church.
@@JamesW7723 It's not the same division as with orthodox churches. It only means that there is mass available in Polish language, they are in an area where Polish people live, the priest is Polish, nuns, etc. But they are all catholic churches as any other anywhere. They all recognize the Pope. Orthodox are different, they are national churches because each one has their own "Pope", Serbian orthodox church has it's own patriarch, Russian church has it's own etc. And each patriarch is "the same as Pope".
Orthodoxy is not ethnic. It is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Church of the Apostles, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.
But it is unfortunately plagued by the heresy of ethnophyletism, condemned in a 19th century Council.
I have Eastern Orthodox friends, e.g. Greek, Egyptian, Ukrainian and Dr Hahn is right about different ethnic domination's in each Eastern Orthodox church or as he puts it "Dominationalism". Its difficult for someone outside of these communities to go to these Church's without feeling like an outsider.
With utmost respect, I somewhat disagree; it depends on where you are. I am a western convert to Orthodoxy in the American South, and 2 out of the 3 churches I’ve belonged to since my chrismation were 90-99% American converts. And the one that was more “ethnic” was maybe 50-50. I love my Catholic brothers and sisters (why I’m subscribed to this channel!) though. 🙏🏻 🕊
Nah, I'm an awkward Englishman who attends a Russian orthodox church. I was totally bowled over by how kind and welcoming everyone was, it just felt like home. Starting to help out reading during Matins now and picking up a little Russian and Slavonic.
I can understand that it might be a little intimidating for someone, but it's such a myth that eastern Europeans are all stony-faced dour people.
Egyptian, Armenian, Ethiopian and Syrians Christian are Miaphysites. There are difference in "Orthodox" label here. Russians, Serbs, Romanian, Georgian and Greece are Chalcedonian Orthodox or "Roman" rite.
Plus each of their church body are representative of their own region based on their language. So things like Latin being forced to medieval Europe was never an issue.
I don't see why the patriach no 1 among equal should be head of all Christian and dictating things as they see fit. Patriach of Constantinople are often mistaken as Orthodox pope, but no... He is really just symbolyc patriach no. 2 and didn't have authority over others.
man is not difficult because we have same ritula is hars because you dont know the language but if you know the lithurgy is not hard
no one ever was rejected because they did not have a certain ethnicity. it's just that their languages are unintelligible. maybe the politics of the region also played a role in the feeling of seperateness of these churches but not so in the middle ages. these were brother nations are all united. the argument Scott makes is weak and does not really get into the content of the orthodox belief either. he's mixing things up as an outsider.
Amen, you guys are amazing, as a Catholic I have learned so much from you. God bless you all.
I was baptized in a Russian Orthodox Church, but have also taken communion in Greek and Serbian churches. Obviously, we're not "different denominations". As for the "ethnic" parts, my church alone has more than 15 different nationalities. It's got nothing to do with ethnicity and more to do with different jurisdictions within the same body - kinda like the US has federal states. I'm sorry, but many of your speakers are gravely misinformed. You should invite a well-informed orthodox speaker instead.
Yeah each Jurisdiction has bishops who aren’t the exact ethnicity of their origin metropolis. There are black bishops in Alexandria. There are white bishops in the Antiochian Jurisdiction. The OCA is a huge mix. ROCOR isn’t strictly Russian. We have missions out in Indonesia. I met an Asian woman who had a black husband at a Greek Church. Orthodoxy is not a strict ethnic thing. Also we see the apostles going out and evangelizing different nations and those nations being under their jurisdiction. Even the Catholic Church with regards to the Eastern Rite has a quasi autocephalous ecclesial structure that has patriarchs.
Agreed, this "denomination" phrase he allegedly coined seemed sour and imprudent of him to presume of the Orthodox Church.
In core and in theory it s not ethnical but very often in practice it is very ethnic and nationalistic , I experienced that since I come from Orthodox background and country
@@Venom-mf7io I hear you, and of course we've got our own problems - among those being some parishes feeling a bit segregated. Then again, you will see that among some catholic parishes as well. Still, this is the exception rather than the rule; most orthodox churches are more than happy to receive and tend to foreigners.
The fact remains however that referring to different orthodox churches belonging to the same body as different "denominations" is an outright lie.
@@MoriorInvictus1453 I am not saying that they are different denominations , but if church has prefix Serbian , Greek or Russian it alludes that it has something to do with ethnicity, in my country Orthodox are very nationalistic and political driven than spiritual like in real Christian sense, everything somehow is connected to Serbian people since here is Serbian Orthodox Church.
Matt please have him back for this discussion!
Dr. Scott Hahn is awesome. Can listen to him for hours. Been following him for years
Catholics are pagans. Escape the cult before it is too late.
Are you ever deceived by Satan. The Roman cult is not only leading millions to Hell by preaching a "false gospel" (Gal1), but is guilty of the murder of untold numbers of men, women, and children during its bloody 1500 year domination. Read church history.
Escape the cult of the pope as I did, before it is too late.
You are soooooo confused. Read the bible. Perhaps God will straighten out your thinking and save you from the cult of Rome.
Greetings from Poland. I really enjoy listening to this podcast❤
bad argument. as a Catholic who is somewhat convinced of eastern orthodoxy given that it is essentially traditional Catholicism of the first millennium and modern Catholicism seems to have lost its way, I find it's a very bad argument to say that you're not convinced of something on whether it's true or not and instead make it about which race/ethnicity believes in it.
there are ethnic based Catholic Churches as well. it's just a bad argument.
@zedd I've been going through the comments, and seeing you a lot, and very much appreciate what you're writing.
I hope and pray you come to the Orthodox Church, but I also hope and pray you come to it through prayer and study, and it seems to me you are far from uninformed and just angry because you detest innovations, but see that there is much rhyme and reason as to why one is accepting innovation, and the other isn't.
@zedd No problem, friend!
If I can aid you in any way, please don't hesitate to ask.
@zedd I will pray for you as well. I came out of Roman Catholicism myself and it was mostly an intellectual pursuit to start. I hope all goes well for you and God grants you many years! ☦️
I have a few friends that made the same mistake and who now see that Rome continues to fall away from the Apostolic tradition, especially now with blessing gay couples. The complaint of ethnicity is a silly one, since the Roman church has the same issue. There are parishes that speak Spanish and others that use Latin and others that use English. The Filioque is an error, and the insertion of it by Rome without a council was a sign of its pride.
I am Catholic from the Eatern rites, we believe every thing the Roman Catholic Church believes, including Felique.
No mention of the Orthodox Churches allowing divorce.
I believe people are jumping ships when their soul become stagnant, reaches a bottleneck in their interior life, cannot carry their cross anymore and live a saintly life. They tends to blame it outward toward the clergy, the pope and the church. Convincing themselves that they are right and the church was wrong. Solidifying their dissatisfaction thru argument and history. Then they jump to Orthodoxy leaving everything behind without solving all their struggle, their crosses and just starts a new. Such a clever escape route.
Eh... Might be a bit of both?
You can argue the same with athiesm .. but is it mere stagnancy or actually devoid of something?
I’m a 20 year convert to the Orthodox Church. My church is 90% Protestant converts, not “ethnics”. My first church was “ethnic “ but although it was awkward I didn’t see that as a good reason to make a primarily theological decision, and I feel like people who do are focused on the user friendliness of the church. As to the filioque, it was perhaps not even primarily because a of the theological controversy per se, as much as the PERCEIVED arrogance of Rome to unilaterally impose its MINORITY view on the other 4 main churches (Antioch, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Constantinople I think.) So if 4 churches maintain solidarity and the other rejects what seems good “to us and the Holy Spirit” who broke off from whom? Thus Rome became the first Protestant church. The Reformation was just the fruit of their branch breaking off the vine. But I Iove all the Western brothers and pray for unity.
I remember a comment regarding the distress someone had over all the Christian denominations to the point of anxiety and wonder at which he should choose. Then one night he had a dream where Christ pulled all the denominations like different colored ribbons and tied them together to make a strong rope.
Prelest.
I find that the Catholic Church can be ethnic also and it's not something unique to Orthodoxy. For example, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church in Dublin is full of great people but very heavily ethnic. The reason for this is because Eastern Christianity really isn't on the radar in the west as much as Protestantism and Catholicism can be. The Roman Catholic Church can also be very ethnic to a foreigner coming from the east to work in the west. They too have this feeling of exclusion. In addition to this, you have the Italian Mass, Nigerian Mass and Polish masses and guess who attend those? Greek Orthodox merely describes the roots of that Church which is Greek just as Roman describes the roots of the Catholic one. I say we learn to bridge the gap and learn how to embrace the roots of the Churches and its culture while doing our best to make it "Irish" as well if that's the country it's in. God bless.
LOTS of nationalistic Catholics, yes.
I'm an LCMS Lutheran who has been contemplating leaving for either the Orthodox or Catholic Church for the past 3 or 4 years, but have been totally stuck in neutral. I don't think it's a matter of IF, but a matter of WHEN. There are various things that I find more appealing compared to the other in both Churches and kind of feel like I would be turning my back on the one that I don't join. I read the Orthodox Study Bible and listen to EWTN radio. There is not a Byzantine (Eastern) Catholic Church close enough that I could attend on a regular basis. Any prayers for my discernment would be most appreciated.
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It seems to me the ultimate question is: Is it the will of Christ that Christians be in communion with the successor of Peter? Many blessings for your journey.
So what happened
I'm stuck between the two as well
Worse, between oriental and eastern
@@bond3161 I'm stuck in between Catholic and Orthodox, but for your particular case, I would go for eastern orthodoxy, because of the Christological controversy in the oriental church. But that is just MY thoughts and what I would do.
@@shukitheconscious3150 ive done quite a bit of research, oriental is the fullest of truth and consistent with councils.
Both eastern and catholic fall short due to lack of consistency across the councils.
Third council was headed by orientals, you dont thibk they knew what they wete talking about under Cyril of ALEXANDRIA, the champion of the third council?
Even if during Ephesus II, orientals may have been aorrogant or rude, during Chalcedon, they reestablished the heretics who are actually proponents for nestorianism though perhaps not openly.
Who are these heretics? The same heretics in the 5th council, whose works by the standards of catholic and easterns, were deemed heretical. They are Theodore, Theodet, and Ibas.
Ask yourself, why did they condemn only the writings and not the people when they are clearly wrong?
Is the Holy Spirit of God really with these councils? Is God both YES and NO?
And is this is but only one examination for the favoir of orientals. But it is enough.
So regarding these heretics
3rd council, orientals reject these heretics
4th eastern and catholic council accept these heretics
5th eastern and catholic reject the works of these heretics.
Please refute. If you cant, the truth speakd for itself.
The mental gymnastics people have to go through in order to justify catholicism and especially the fillioque is really astounding. So far I haven't seen any convincing refutation on orthodoxy.
I am about to become a catechumen in the Orthodox Church, after 2 years as a catechumen in the catholic church. Granted, I didn't attended very much these last few months. But something is WAY off in the catholic church, on so many levels actually, and I truly believe that this all started to go south 1000 years ago. Orthodoxy is the true faith and I really hope I will find my place in it and finally get baptized by triple immersion, in the name of THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT! Amen
Which version of Orthodoxy; you have the Russians and the Greeks just for starters.
@@georgepierson4920 As far as I know, there are strictly no theological, spiritual or practical differences between the two. If you're catholic, you are also under a national/regional jurisdiction of the catholic church.
Ahh, yes, orthodoxy, the promoter of the Arian and Nestorian heresies. Both corrected by the pope. Marian apparitions prove orthodoxy is not in full communion. That’s why orthodoxy refuses these documented true messages from heaven. Which orthodox denomination are you joining ? Latvian? Greece? Russian?
@@Crusader33adthe issue is who corrected who?
And how do we know?
Why did we have the Nicene creed that didn't have filioque?
Was it stated it cannot be changed?
Was it changed later on by catholics and why?
@@bond3161 - Christ gave the church the charism to “loose and bind”. The church has determined that the Holy Spirit proceeds form the Father AND the Son. Jesus said “the Father and I are ONE”. The Spirit cannot proceed from the Father alone.
These Orthodox churches he's talking about, Greek orthodox, Serbian orthodox, etc, they are all orthodox and there is absolutely no difference between them. They have absolutely no difference in their dogma. They are autonomous, equal in terms of administration, as it should be, like in the beginning of Christianity. Sounds like a good arrangement.
True!
Your extremist rhetoric is blatantly false. "absolutely no difference"? The OCA church I attended prayed the 'Our Father' in Russian, and the GOArch church I attended prayed it in Greek. Unless you cannot notice a difference between these languages, ...
@@AetheriusLamia The liturgy is in different languages but there is no difference in religious dogma. The Catholic churches in England use English but of course they are not different from the Catholic churches in Italy in terms of dogma (they are all catholic). And what extremist rhetoric are you talking about?
Greece and Russian are in schism now. So you’re wrong.
@@Crusader33ad Absolute rubbish. Tell me then what's the religious difference, because this is what schism is. Go tell us. And by the way, what do you mean 'Greece' Greece is not a church is a country and it its church (except Crete and some islands) is not even under the Ecumenical patriarchate of Constantinople.
And this is why I am pursuing eastern Catholicism … I can have my Byzantine liturgy and communion with the pope - best of both worlds! Unity in diversity - and you can keep your Filioque - I don’t need it.
Yes, let's do that. We want an episode about just that :)
Good point on nationalisms role in the Eastern Churches. Attended Ukrainian Catholic Church where an extern pastor crossed out the filioque in the pew missals. Another pastor advocated for NATO membership and volunteered there were not that many KNOT cccs in Ukraine. They buried my parents but knowing a bit of history I told the pastor that was bad politics and Russian paranoia would rather destroy Ukraine than let the west have it. I returned to the NO and TLM upon learning more bad things about the situation in Ukraine. My mom did note the East did not travel far in their evangelization efforts. There had been a split in this parish over marriage and some created an Orthodox parish since it does not follow Christ’s restoration of the institution.
The West has a history of wild veering off the path, then snapping back to it, however many fell out of the proverbial cart of the Church on the way. However, the East has stuck very steadily to it broadly, but with no central aim, no guiding light, it has slowly wandered in different esoteric directions. I still have no clue which is more lost at this particular moment.
If only we could get past our own pride and come together once more, perhaps we'd all find the thin and narrow path Jesus called us to walk with him.
Yes, I am amazed that for all their talk about "keeping to tradition", rather than encourage parishioners to read the Church Fathers, they are encouraged to read 19th-20th century gurus from their 'home country' (Russia, Greece) ...
Orthodoxy has no central aim? What a weird statement. I see Catholicism as having no aim. They change like the wind and with the culture of the times. For example look at the pope. He says fornication is not a serious sin, supports LGBT and kisses the feet of pagan cult leaders. This is not the doing of someone who has a central aim, this is the doing of someone who has no aim and simply conforms to whatever is popular in the culture. Orthodoxy’s aim, as Catholicism’s should be, is following Gods will on the level of the individual. The path to doing which is very difficult, but it is a solid and unbending aim.
Orthodoxy being esoteric? Again I don’t understand. Orthodoxy like any other religion has specific rituals and specific doctrine. Any religion/ sect that has too much interpretation or variation becomes like Protestantism, diffuse and completely lost. The Orthodox church has very clear doctrines and I have seen no evidence of going in different directions, perhaps in minor ways in cultural traditions, but never in doctrine. For example in some churches you may set a candle for yourself in a pit, others you may hold a candle as you take communion, others a central candle is lit for all believers. This is not a major doctrinal difference so I wouldn’t define it as esoteric. Please explain your statements further brother.
How does the East have no light or central aim?
I am still learning, and I know that I have much to learn, but I would like to throw in my two cents to react to Dr. Hahn's views on Orthodoxy. My views and logic could be wrong and it is very likely that I am wrong. I welcome all kinds of discourse as long as it leads to mutual understanding and opens the way for truth to prevail.
1) The Orthodox Church is ethnic, I go to an Orthodox Church that is part of the Greek Diocese although I am not Greek. But it is ethnic because of the history of the Eastern Church - as missionaries from the East went on missions, they would translate the Gospel and the services to make it more accessible to native populations (unlike what the Latin Church did until the 16th c.). When missionaries from the Russian Church landed in Alaska, they translated and taught the Gospel in the native language of the local tribes. I don't think Catholic should mean that we all speak the same language or we all do the exact same thing, but that the Gospel be made universally accessible to all peoples and cultures.
Many Orthodox Churches in the US are very ethnic and keep ties to the "mother country" thanks to immigration from mainly Orthodox countries throughout the 20th century, but I know that if given enough time, the Orthodox Church will adapt to the many cultures that exist here in the United States. In my parish, the service is done in English despite being a "Greek" church, and when we recite the Lord's prayer it is done in English, Greek, and Spanish to reflect the cultures that congregate to worship God (maybe one day there will be all-Spanish services). I am always made to feel welcome (even when I think I don't deserve it). I love it!
2) The Filioque - This might be an historical misunderstanding, I think. But, like Dr. Hahn said, it is a very complicated issue that would take more than a TH-cam comment to discuss. Fundamentally, I think Catholics and Orthodox understand the procession of the Spirit similarly with different wording to understand the specifics - I think we are understanding "proceed" in different ways, but ultimately we're saying the same things... human language is very limiting.
Hands down, I pray for the reunification of the Eastern and Western Churches, it won't be easy, the road will be long, but Christ's Church must be united to fight against the evil that is spawning all around us. God Bless!
please make this video with scott as soon as possible bc I am currently in RCIA trying to figure out if I should become eastern orthodox or catholic
Thank you for your comment and support.your comments and constant support has brought me this far.keep supporting ❤️please send a mail prayerrequest459@gmail.com....
Do not base decisions on Scott Hahn. Talk to a reputable Traditional priest - if you can find one. And also talk to an Orthodox priest. Ask them your questions.
God bless everyone! May God strengthen and protect the Catholic Church! Dr Hahn hit the nail on the head with his answer!
Wow you guys left me hungry for more...
I read his book, Rome Sweet Home, years ago. There was no apparent logical sequence of thought in his decision to leave presbyterianism and join Romanism. It was chiefly feelings oriented / experiential. He tried to give the impression that there was thought behind the move, but there were large leaps of credulity (not to be confused with Biblical faith). I don't know if this was the motive, but Scott Hahn would be just another presbyterian pastor if he had not made the move to Roman Catholicism, where he has, as the Protestant who "returned to Rome," become a star.
Thank you so much for this video!!!! God bless!!!
I like and respect Dr. Hahn. However, his impression of Orthodoxy as an "ethnic religion" is unique to the diasporic experience. The advantage of nation-based autocephaly is that Orthodoxy becomes indigenized in every culture to which it's introduced. Melting pot societies like ours are historically unique (at least in scale), and it naturally takes time to adjust to this reality. My otherwise officially Russian church has already adjusted. We have, in addition to parishioners from several Slavic nations, members who are Vietnamese, Persian, Romanian, Greek, African-American, etc.
These two arguments are really not good. To an Orthodox, hearing this makes me more inclined to stay Orthodox because it tells me one of your best really has no idea what Orthodoxy is.
1. They aren’t ethnic churches. If they act too ethnic, it’s a negative tendency, but not what they are. They operate under different patriarchates or jurisdictions. Like how the first millennium church operated.
2. There are different ways one can understand a “sending.” Catholics use the shallowest understanding and fall into a word-concept fallacy. There is a sending in terms of temporal sending forth, an eternal procession, and there is a hypostatic origination. The Creed was in reference to the hypostatic origin, as the Fathers talk about how the Son is begotten vs the Spirit is spirated. The Filioque confuses the Son as a second cause of the Holy Spirit.
"one of your best" - ouch!
You're just sidestepping the underlying issues by using a barrage of irrelevant information. The separate jurisdictions operating under no legitimate authority *IS* the problem. You guys start with a misinterpretation and then work your way backwards. Apparently, going by your last comment, this approach has even affected your theology. You're just begging the question by dodging the issue.
What a stupid title. Catholic means fullness often translated as universal. It's not the name of a faith. Rome being one of the five original sees cannot be universal in deference to the other four.. The gall of the Schismatic Latins.