It's crazy how we have books, movies, and a new show all revolving around the threat of Sauron...when the threat Sauron posed was only faint echo compared to Morgoth. All of our popular media related to this setting is focused on the 2nd-place bad guy.
Still some remaining traits from the dark influence of Utumno lasted much later on hidden on the farthest cold-frozen Northest areas of all Middle-Earth, and well there seems to be a special trait of evil-nature being flourishing through all the Iron Mountains remainings in Middle Earth and their neighboring areas such as the Angmar Mountains where the leader of the Nazgul ruled once, the Gundabad Mountains at first sacred for Dwarves but later deeply corrupted by Orcs and the Grey Mountains where seems to be a lot of Dragons specially through the Withered Heath, so overall there is some remaining evil-aura so long lasting after Utumno was mostly destroyed - though it´s all very clearly stated that the Valar actually didn´t dared to go and explore what lingered on the deepest chasm-pits underground of the fortesss, leaving them totally free and so it´s uknow which still lingers there - and might be a hint somehow about some explaining - perhaps - with the Nameless Things doing burrowing labyrint-traits beneath the deepest levels of Moria.
Your Content is absolutely amazing.Your voice is perfect for this work and I truly think your accent is the cherry on top. the more you do on Tolkien’s work, the better it gets. Keep up the fantastic work.
Brilliant video - but I'm a bit confused, as elsewhere I've read that the lost 'official' word Tolkien gives on Utumno is that it was unroofed and broken, but it's deepest pits and foundations were not uprooted, leaving the north a hostile region, and source of evil things even as late as the end of yhe third age... and that's the last we hear of it. That makes it sound as though there could still be caverns and cyclopean foundations of the place intact into the third age.
Indeed there is (this is the most likely way that Durin's Bane reached Moria). These underground parts still exist past the Third and Fourth Age, but the question of where Utumno's centre was, is now impossible to answer. Does this clear up your confusion?
I saw some information and theoryes that Utumno was build in the central north of middle earth, maybe a little bit to east. Illuin was build in the north of the central-estic regions, and Utumno was probably very close behind some mountains, where the light of Iluin was weak. So, according to this theory, Utumno’s remnants are drowwned in Utumno's bay which was probably formed after the destruction of utumno, the war of wrath and maybe the downfall of Numenor. Utumno’s bay is a little bit in northeast compared to Lonely Mountain and Eren Engrin where the dwarves had their mine (MERP map). Compared to the south regions, you can watch where sea Rhun is and go straight in the north-north-east until you reach forodwaith and where Utumno’s bay is now. Down i will show what i find. There will be a lot to read, but i will really like to know your opinion. I have searched for a definite answer to this question for a long time. There seems to be a lot of contradictory information on its location. I could not find any reasonably detailed answer at all. Therefore, I decided to have a look at the master’s works myself. A closer look at the source material revealed that some of the contradictions are misinterpretations. Hence there could very well be a consensus regarding the location of Utumno. The master definitively had a final word on the location of a Utumno. To understand where Utumno was, we will determine the vertical and horizontal location of it separately. Was Utumno inside or behind the Iron Mountains? (Vertical position on Arda) The literature and the drawn maps seem to contradict each other on that question. We have two maps from Tolkien which clearly show Utumno behind the Iron Mountains. Firstly, there is the “earliest map” which shows Utumno (here still written Utumna) in the northernmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Secondly, the Map IV of the “Ambarkanta maps” also shows Utumno to the north of the Iron Mountains. However, the following quote from the Silmarillion might implicate a different location of Utumno: “Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion This part created the believe that Utumno was built below (and not behind) the Iron Mountains. The very popular Atlas of Middle Earth from Karen Wynn Fonstad also displays the Ruins of Utumno inside of the Iron Mountains, most probably based on this text segment. But there are two indications inside this quote which make an Utumno below the Iron Mountains highly doubtful. Firstly, the light of the Illiun were “cold and dim” at its location. Below the Iron Mountains would not be any light at all. However, behind the Iron Mountains the light would indeed be dim because that part of Arda would only see indirect light of the Lamps. I created a sketch to visualize the issue with indirect light from Illuin and the two possible locations of Utumno. Secondly, the quote does not even mention the Iron Mountains as mountain range. It says that Utumno was build beneath “dark mountains”. Therefore, we can conclude that the theory of Utumno below the Iron Mountains is a conclusion (although an understandable one), but it is not based on the written text itself. We have further proof that Utumno was behind the Iron Mountains from the Silmarillion itself: “In the north of the world Melkor had in the ages past reared Ered Engrin, the Iron Mountains, as a fence to his citadel of Utumno; and they stood upon the borders of the regions of everlasting cold, in a great curve from east to west.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion Melkor back then was so powerful, he did not build a wall as defense line for his citadel, he reared a gigantic mountain range. A “fence” usually encircles something. Utumno’s (first) wall was this mountain range and placing Utumno inside its own fence makes little sense. Additionally, Utumno being located behind the Iron Mountains is directly confirmed by another text piece from HoME 11: “At this time the Valar came hither from Aman for their assault upon Melkor, whose stronghold was in the North beyond Eryd Engrin (the Iron Mountains).” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11 In summary, Utumno’s gates were behind the Iron Mountains. However, its pits and tunnels probably reached the Iron Mountains or even spots in the Misty Mountains which allowed the Balrog to get there without being noticed. After determining its horizontal position, we will have a look at its even more mysterious vertical position on Arda. Why did the awoken Elves at Cuiviénen see smoke in the north? (Horizontal position on Arda) The following quote created the assumption that Utumno had to be in the northeast of middle earth. It tells the story of the Elves which awoke at Cuiviénen. After the destruction of Utumno, they were on their journey to Valinor: “ […] passing northward about the Sea of Helcar they turned towards the west. Before them great clouds hung still black in the North above the ruins of war [against Utumno], and the stars in that region were hidden.” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion After the Battle of Powers (war on Utumno), the Sea of Helcar was clearly in the east of Middle Earth (Ambarkanta Map V). Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth. This is obviously contradictory with the earlier map of Tolkien which I cited earlier (Map IV). Map IV portrayed Utumno in the northwest. So, what is the right horizontal position behind the Iron Mountains? Was Tolkien aware of this issue and gave an answer to this question? Actually, yes, there is a note note in HoME 11: “'(Utumno)... at the western end' > 'at the midmost'. This shift of Utumno eastwards is implied in the hasty note pencilled on the LQ 2 text of Chapter 2, Of Valinor and the Two Trees, in which the story entered that Angband also was built in the ancient days, 'not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea'” - J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11 According to this source, this note is from 1958 and therefore much younger than the earlier mentioned maps. Notice that it says “western end”, clearly indicating a change to the horizontal position of Utumno on the map. The note represents the final documented thought of Tolkien on the Location of Utumno. Therefore, Utumno finally returned to its original central location behind the northern mountain range just as displayed in the earliest map. Nonetheless, the quote above from the even younger Silmarillion about the journey of the Elves might still create the image of an Utumno even further to the east. At least on a world like ours. Right here is a rather complex misinterpretation issue according to my analysis. Arda back then was in no way like our world is nowadays. It was flat. This basically means that the cardinal points need to be interpreted differently. On a round world, the northern most part can always be reached simply by going northwards. This is not true for a flat world. A flat world has one single northern most point. To reach it, you always must go to the midmost part of the world and then upwards. Only there is the most northern point of a flat world. The graphic is based on the Atlas of Middle Earth. As we concluded above, Tolkien placed Utumno at the midmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Therefore, Utumno in the north of the flat Arda was always at the “midmost” horizontal position, no matter from which point you were facing north. This part might be not all that easy to understand so please do not hesitate to ask any questions. Melkor’s first and mightiest citadel was probably the most hellish place ever to exits on Middle Earth. The malice and darkness of this place were just unimaginable. I hope this thread brings some light to it! There is just a one real criticism about this statement: The Sea of Helcar was in the east of middle earth. Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth If you look at map IV, from which you draw your conclusion, the inland Sea of Helk(c)ar is not to the east of M-E. It is central and Cuiveinen is to the east of the Sea but still not to the far east of M-E. But this is the mistake of Karen Wynn Fonstad in her "The Atlas of Middle-earth", despite it being an amazing work of cartography. The problem is that while the Ambarkanta Map IV (which is more a diagramatic map than a topographic), the Sea of Helcar and the Sea of Ringil are shown to be in the middle of Endor, in Ambarkanta Map V the West-lands are depicted as larger, because JRRT wanted to show the details of Beleriand. Not to mention how at that phase of the Legendarium the Professor had not yet thought of Eriador, Rhovanion and Gondor (the territory, not the realm), hence when Karen Wynn Fonstad decided to make her Atlas, she simply added these lands between Beleriand and the Sea of Helcar (while having the South Blue Mountains end in the White Mountains), thus greatly enlarging the West-lands. However, she did not consider that based on Ambarkanta Map IV the lands east of the Sea of Helcar were as large as the lands west of it, hence she kept it as it was, and thus the East-lands in her Atlas is many times smaller than the West-lands.
Hey Vastolorde, First off, I'm impressed with your analysis, and it was an absolute DELIGHT to read it! That said, you asked for our opinion, so here it is: To add onto your reasoning regarding the vertical position on Arda, you are most likely indeed correct. People oft forget just how LARGE Utumno was, and given that size, "behind" and "below" become both insufficient descriptions, as it indeed can easily be both: the entrance, with its greatest exposure to any light behind the mountains, but the majority of its vast cavernous systems eventually beneath the mountains. In regards to your reasoning concerning the horizontal position on Arda, I must add one point though: as you say "to reach [the northernmost point], you always must go to the midmost part of the world and then upwards." This is technically correct, but it is not the only way. If you replace Arda of before its reshaping to a round sheet of paper, then "north" becomes one direction, like going to the "top" of the paper. Now indeed one way to get there is from the middle. But another, equally valid way, is to move towards what once was the top edge of the paper (which direction can be moved towards from any position on the paper, barring the "northernmost"), and then just move that way until you hit the edge, after which you continue along the edge until you indeed reach that northernmost point. This would allow the Elves to see smoke to the "North", regardless of whether they were in the middle, or to the left, or to the right of the centre of that flat plane. Now, what does this say about your conclusion on Utumno's location? I would say that you might be correct. But it also depends on how much weight you lend to the use of "northernmost" by Tolkien, as it is not only a potentially exact indication, but also a more broad way of naming a region. What I can say for certain, is that your theory is a great one, and I cannot find anything in it that is outright untrue. Thank you very much for your work on this, and thank you for asking our feedback on it!
@MysteriesOfWesternesse Exploring lotr universe is my pleasure, it just makes me happy to see that are other people passionate like me. I just found this information in other place, i don't want to take credit for this. Also, i will like if you will do a video about Sauron's hideout in the east, we never see to much about that.
If this theory of Utumno not just being behind the Iron Mountains but actually mostly under them - as Angband was also under the Thangorodrim volcanos - there makes a lot of better sense why a remaining and long-lasting evil dreadfull nature of creatures and being on the northern sections of Middle-Earh much later on what became the Angmar Mountains (and their kingdom with the Nazgul leader), the Gundaband Mountain eventual corruption by Orcs (though being early on a sacred primordial spot for the Dwarves origins), and the Grey Mountains always linked with Dragons (even on the Fourth Age and thereafter though rarer indeed) specially that eerie little described place that is the Withered Heath where Smaug came from. And of course the wickedness and mysterious darkness reached furtherly as the Misty Mountains were risen up to make a furtherly cover in darkness throught all the Middle-Earth domains on the East side of them, while at the same time, Melkor went to build up Angband on the Western side closer to Aman in norhern Beleriand to get a stand against his foes where he couldn´t make enough effort to disminish the light of the Trees of Valinor. Both mountain chains, the Iron and the Misty ones were risen up by the Dark Lord actions himself so some evil nature is inherently linked on. This along the statement that the Valar actually didn´t reached the deepest pit-chasms of Utumno when conquering it, and it´s unknown what remained there, might be also a good link to the Nameless Things of Moria somehow, as beign a secret tool of Melkor - even for Sauron´s knowledge - about on when building his fortess early on, whereas they still remain doing burrowing elsewhere deep benneath all Middle-Earth for furtherly connections for their master return on the Last Battle perhaps.
Nothing says "Lord of Evil" as not one - but two! - enormous fortresses populated by evil spirits, orcs, Balrog, and even the Nameless Things, beings so horrible and ancient, even speaking of them would darken the world and make it less joyful! After hearing of just how vile Melkor Morgoth was, I was surprised he never threw opens those black vaults and let those evils out as some hideous joke!
I'm curious... where did you get the information that the attack on Utumno lasted for a thousand years? That's rather mind-bending but may help to explain how 144 elves multiplied into small nations
That attack on Utumno happened before the Ages of the Sun, so the way that time is calculated is a bit different: The Siege of Utumno lasted from 1092 in the Years of the Trees to 1099. That sounds short with only 7 Valian Years, but, as is explained best in "the Nature of Middle-earth", as each Valian Year is equal to 144 solar years, this means the siege lasted 1,008 of our years (plus or minus a bit, as it didn't last EXACTLY 7 Valian Years per se, ofc). I hope this answers your question
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse Fantastic 👍🏼 I actually have a copy of Nature of Middle-Earth but have not read it yet. The date range of 1092-1099 is also found there?
im a big super mean looking city brawler, but secretly i am one of the many members of the Lord of the Rings cult. shhhhh, keep me secret, keep me safe, i cant afford the hit on my reputation for crying about hobbits when nobodys looking. heheheeeee *winks*
It depends on our interpretation of "hell". Within the lore, "Angband" is Sindarin for "Iron Hell", and "Utumno" is Quenya for "Hell". In the western cultural context, "hell" is usually the place where the devil resides and where all evil things come from. In that sense, Angband and Utumno were very much indeed a hell in the way we understand it, as Melkor Morgoth is the supernatural, primordial being that is the source and active progenitor of all evil, and thus a very fitting equivalent to the devil in that context. If we add the subterranean trait to the requirements, this still applies, albeit better to Utumno than to Angband. Angband was so deep that the excavated material piled up created the largest mountain range in Middle-earth, but Utumno was so deep and vast underground that even the Valar couldn't destroy it altogether, and it is theorised that its caverns stretched throughout much of Middle-earth, and were the reason Durin's Bane could make its way to Khazad-dûm. If we, however, go by the trait that hell needs to be in a separate dimension than the main, physical one, then I fear that there was no such thing in Eä, as that was the only dimension created in the Ainulindalë, and outside of it is only the Timeless Halls that are the dwelling of Eru and the remaining Ainur.
I realize that Tolkien's Legendarium parallels myth, but some of it has never made sense to me. If the elves were all alone, and had neither sword nor spear no armor, why didn't Melkor simply swarm down from Utumno and destroy them? I know, I know-- because that makes for a short and unexciting story. But still, I've never been happy about these sort of inconsistencies.
The in-lore reason would be that it was never Melkor's goal to destroy the elves. He wanted domination, and to be king of the ashes is not domination, it is outlasting. Melkor wanted to bend the Music of the Ainur to his will and vision, and within Arda that meant trying to reshape and control things, not just kill
@@similaritiesendhere What I mean is, the maiar that aligned with Melkor before the world's formation were the balrogs, they harmonised with Melkor before the world was created, and seeing as "Valar" and "Maiar" are the same order of being (Ainur) just with radically different levels of power, it makes sense that Melkor would look like a mega-balrog. Sauron would never look like this as he aligned himself with Aule before the world's formation. So he incarnated with "smithery" and the like in mind, whereas the Balrogs incarnated with "fire and power" in mind.
@@blazednlovinit None of Tolkien's descriptions of Melkor describe him as looking (or behaving) like a Balrog. He even has a fair form like Sauron. As far as Melkor not being a "Smith", Tolkien describe's Melkor's ring as being Arda itself. Literally forged his evil into every atom of the universe.
@@similaritiesendhere Yeah, inference usually does mean that something isn't explicitly mentioned, else it would be so obvious as to be not worth pointing out :) Melkor literally isn't the smith because it's Aule who is the smith :)
@@blazednlovinit You clearly need to reread the Silmirillion because what made Melkor special was that he was good at everything while the other Valar specialized in one thing.
It's crazy how we have books, movies, and a new show all revolving around the threat of Sauron...when the threat Sauron posed was only faint echo compared to Morgoth. All of our popular media related to this setting is focused on the 2nd-place bad guy.
Still some remaining traits from the dark influence of Utumno lasted much later on hidden on the farthest cold-frozen Northest areas of all Middle-Earth, and well there seems to be a special trait of evil-nature being flourishing through all the Iron Mountains remainings in Middle Earth and their neighboring areas such as the Angmar Mountains where the leader of the Nazgul ruled once, the Gundabad Mountains at first sacred for Dwarves but later deeply corrupted by Orcs and the Grey Mountains where seems to be a lot of Dragons specially through the Withered Heath, so overall there is some remaining evil-aura so long lasting after Utumno was mostly destroyed - though it´s all very clearly stated that the Valar actually didn´t dared to go and explore what lingered on the deepest chasm-pits underground of the fortesss, leaving them totally free and so it´s uknow which still lingers there - and might be a hint somehow about some explaining - perhaps - with the Nameless Things doing burrowing labyrint-traits beneath the deepest levels of Moria.
Your Content is absolutely amazing.Your voice is perfect for this work and I truly think your accent is the cherry on top. the more you do on Tolkien’s work, the better it gets. Keep up the fantastic work.
I think of one of the blue Wizards when I listen😊.
Brilliant video - but I'm a bit confused, as elsewhere I've read that the lost 'official' word Tolkien gives on Utumno is that it was unroofed and broken, but it's deepest pits and foundations were not uprooted, leaving the north a hostile region, and source of evil things even as late as the end of yhe third age... and that's the last we hear of it. That makes it sound as though there could still be caverns and cyclopean foundations of the place intact into the third age.
Indeed there is (this is the most likely way that Durin's Bane reached Moria). These underground parts still exist past the Third and Fourth Age, but the question of where Utumno's centre was, is now impossible to answer.
Does this clear up your confusion?
I saw some information and theoryes that Utumno was build in the central north of middle earth, maybe a little bit to east. Illuin was build in the north of the central-estic regions, and Utumno was probably very close behind some mountains, where the light of Iluin was weak. So, according to this theory, Utumno’s remnants are drowwned in Utumno's bay which was probably formed after the destruction of utumno, the war of wrath and maybe the downfall of Numenor. Utumno’s bay is a little bit in northeast compared to Lonely Mountain and Eren Engrin where the dwarves had their mine (MERP map). Compared to the south regions, you can watch where sea Rhun is and go straight in the north-north-east until you reach forodwaith and where Utumno’s bay is now. Down i will show what i find. There will be a lot to read, but i will really like to know your opinion.
I have searched for a definite answer to this question for a long time. There seems to be a lot of contradictory information on its location. I could not find any reasonably detailed answer at all. Therefore, I decided to have a look at the master’s works myself. A closer look at the source material revealed that some of the contradictions are misinterpretations. Hence there could very well be a consensus regarding the location of Utumno. The master definitively had a final word on the location of a Utumno. To understand where Utumno was, we will determine the vertical and horizontal location of it separately.
Was Utumno inside or behind the Iron Mountains? (Vertical position on Arda)
The literature and the drawn maps seem to contradict each other on that question. We have two maps from Tolkien which clearly show Utumno behind the Iron Mountains. Firstly, there is the “earliest map” which shows Utumno (here still written Utumna) in the northernmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Secondly, the Map IV of the “Ambarkanta maps” also shows Utumno to the north of the Iron Mountains. However, the following quote from the Silmarillion might implicate a different location of Utumno:
“Now Melkor began the delving and building of a vast fortress, deep under Earth, beneath dark mountains where the beams of Illuin were cold and dim. That stronghold was named Utumno.”
- J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion
This part created the believe that Utumno was built below (and not behind) the Iron Mountains. The very popular Atlas of Middle Earth from Karen Wynn Fonstad also displays the Ruins of Utumno inside of the Iron Mountains, most probably based on this text segment. But there are two indications inside this quote which make an Utumno below the Iron Mountains highly doubtful. Firstly, the light of the Illiun were “cold and dim” at its location. Below the Iron Mountains would not be any light at all. However, behind the Iron Mountains the light would indeed be dim because that part of Arda would only see indirect light of the Lamps. I created a sketch to visualize the issue with indirect light from Illuin and the two possible locations of Utumno.
Secondly, the quote does not even mention the Iron Mountains as mountain range. It says that Utumno was build beneath “dark mountains”. Therefore, we can conclude that the theory of Utumno below the Iron Mountains is a conclusion (although an understandable one), but it is not based on the written text itself. We have further proof that Utumno was behind the Iron Mountains from the Silmarillion itself:
“In the north of the world Melkor had in the ages past reared Ered Engrin, the Iron Mountains, as a fence to his citadel of Utumno; and they stood upon the borders of the regions of everlasting cold, in a great curve from east to west.”
- J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion
Melkor back then was so powerful, he did not build a wall as defense line for his citadel, he reared a gigantic mountain range. A “fence” usually encircles something. Utumno’s (first) wall was this mountain range and placing Utumno inside its own fence makes little sense. Additionally, Utumno being located behind the Iron Mountains is directly confirmed by another text piece from HoME 11:
“At this time the Valar came hither from Aman for their assault upon Melkor, whose stronghold was in the North beyond Eryd Engrin (the Iron Mountains).”
- J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11
In summary, Utumno’s gates were behind the Iron Mountains. However, its pits and tunnels probably reached the Iron Mountains or even spots in the Misty Mountains which allowed the Balrog to get there without being noticed. After determining its horizontal position, we will have a look at its even more mysterious vertical position on Arda.
Why did the awoken Elves at Cuiviénen see smoke in the north? (Horizontal position on Arda)
The following quote created the assumption that Utumno had to be in the northeast of middle earth. It tells the story of the Elves which awoke at Cuiviénen. After the destruction of Utumno, they were on their journey to Valinor:
“ […] passing northward about the Sea of Helcar they turned towards the west. Before them great clouds hung still black in the North above the ruins of war [against Utumno], and the stars in that region were hidden.”
- J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The Silmarillion
After the Battle of Powers (war on Utumno), the Sea of Helcar was clearly in the east of Middle Earth (Ambarkanta Map V). Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth. This is obviously contradictory with the earlier map of Tolkien which I cited earlier (Map IV). Map IV portrayed Utumno in the northwest. So, what is the right horizontal position behind the Iron Mountains? Was Tolkien aware of this issue and gave an answer to this question?
Actually, yes, there is a note note in HoME 11:
“'(Utumno)... at the western end' > 'at the midmost'. This shift of Utumno eastwards is implied in the hasty note pencilled on the LQ 2 text of Chapter 2, Of Valinor and the Two Trees, in which the story entered that Angband also was built in the ancient days, 'not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea'”
- J.R.R. Tolkien, edited by C. Tolkien: The History of Middle Earth - the War of the Jewels, Volume 11
According to this source, this note is from 1958 and therefore much younger than the earlier mentioned maps. Notice that it says “western end”, clearly indicating a change to the horizontal position of Utumno on the map. The note represents the final documented thought of Tolkien on the Location of Utumno. Therefore, Utumno finally returned to its original central location behind the northern mountain range just as displayed in the earliest map.
Nonetheless, the quote above from the even younger Silmarillion about the journey of the Elves might still create the image of an Utumno even further to the east. At least on a world like ours. Right here is a rather complex misinterpretation issue according to my analysis. Arda back then was in no way like our world is nowadays. It was flat. This basically means that the cardinal points need to be interpreted differently. On a round world, the northern most part can always be reached simply by going northwards.
This is not true for a flat world. A flat world has one single northern most point. To reach it, you always must go to the midmost part of the world and then upwards. Only there is the most northern point of a flat world. The graphic is based on the Atlas of Middle Earth.
As we concluded above, Tolkien placed Utumno at the midmost part behind the Iron Mountains. Therefore, Utumno in the north of the flat Arda was always at the “midmost” horizontal position, no matter from which point you were facing north. This part might be not all that easy to understand so please do not hesitate to ask any questions.
Melkor’s first and mightiest citadel was probably the most hellish place ever to exits on Middle Earth. The malice and darkness of this place were just unimaginable. I hope this thread brings some light to it!
There is just a one real criticism about this statement:
The Sea of Helcar was in the east of middle earth. Therefore, the region north of it (Utumno) should be the northeast of middle earth
If you look at map IV, from which you draw your conclusion, the inland Sea of Helk(c)ar is not to the east of M-E. It is central and Cuiveinen is to the east of the Sea but still not to the far east of M-E.
But this is the mistake of Karen Wynn Fonstad in her "The Atlas of Middle-earth", despite it being an amazing work of cartography. The problem is that while the Ambarkanta Map IV (which is more a diagramatic map than a topographic), the Sea of Helcar and the Sea of Ringil are shown to be in the middle of Endor, in Ambarkanta Map V the West-lands are depicted as larger, because JRRT wanted to show the details of Beleriand. Not to mention how at that phase of the Legendarium the Professor had not yet thought of Eriador, Rhovanion and Gondor (the territory, not the realm), hence when Karen Wynn Fonstad decided to make her Atlas, she simply added these lands between Beleriand and the Sea of Helcar (while having the South Blue Mountains end in the White Mountains), thus greatly enlarging the West-lands. However, she did not consider that based on Ambarkanta Map IV the lands east of the Sea of Helcar were as large as the lands west of it, hence she kept it as it was, and thus the East-lands in her Atlas is many times smaller than the West-lands.
Hey Vastolorde,
First off, I'm impressed with your analysis, and it was an absolute DELIGHT to read it!
That said, you asked for our opinion, so here it is:
To add onto your reasoning regarding the vertical position on Arda, you are most likely indeed correct. People oft forget just how LARGE Utumno was, and given that size, "behind" and "below" become both insufficient descriptions, as it indeed can easily be both: the entrance, with its greatest exposure to any light behind the mountains, but the majority of its vast cavernous systems eventually beneath the mountains.
In regards to your reasoning concerning the horizontal position on Arda, I must add one point though: as you say "to reach [the northernmost point], you always must go to the midmost part of the world and then upwards." This is technically correct, but it is not the only way. If you replace Arda of before its reshaping to a round sheet of paper, then "north" becomes one direction, like going to the "top" of the paper. Now indeed one way to get there is from the middle. But another, equally valid way, is to move towards what once was the top edge of the paper (which direction can be moved towards from any position on the paper, barring the "northernmost"), and then just move that way until you hit the edge, after which you continue along the edge until you indeed reach that northernmost point. This would allow the Elves to see smoke to the "North", regardless of whether they were in the middle, or to the left, or to the right of the centre of that flat plane.
Now, what does this say about your conclusion on Utumno's location?
I would say that you might be correct. But it also depends on how much weight you lend to the use of "northernmost" by Tolkien, as it is not only a potentially exact indication, but also a more broad way of naming a region. What I can say for certain, is that your theory is a great one, and I cannot find anything in it that is outright untrue.
Thank you very much for your work on this, and thank you for asking our feedback on it!
@MysteriesOfWesternesse Exploring lotr universe is my pleasure, it just makes me happy to see that are other people passionate like me. I just found this information in other place, i don't want to take credit for this. Also, i will like if you will do a video about Sauron's hideout in the east, we never see to much about that.
If this theory of Utumno not just being behind the Iron Mountains but actually mostly under them - as Angband was also under the Thangorodrim volcanos - there makes a lot of better sense why a remaining and long-lasting evil dreadfull nature of creatures and being on the northern sections of Middle-Earh much later on what became the Angmar Mountains (and their kingdom with the Nazgul leader), the Gundaband Mountain eventual corruption by Orcs (though being early on a sacred primordial spot for the Dwarves origins), and the Grey Mountains always linked with Dragons (even on the Fourth Age and thereafter though rarer indeed) specially that eerie little described place that is the Withered Heath where Smaug came from. And of course the wickedness and mysterious darkness reached furtherly as the Misty Mountains were risen up to make a furtherly cover in darkness throught all the Middle-Earth domains on the East side of them, while at the same time, Melkor went to build up Angband on the Western side closer to Aman in norhern Beleriand to get a stand against his foes where he couldn´t make enough effort to disminish the light of the Trees of Valinor. Both mountain chains, the Iron and the Misty ones were risen up by the Dark Lord actions himself so some evil nature is inherently linked on.
This along the statement that the Valar actually didn´t reached the deepest pit-chasms of Utumno when conquering it, and it´s unknown what remained there, might be also a good link to the Nameless Things of Moria somehow, as beign a secret tool of Melkor - even for Sauron´s knowledge - about on when building his fortess early on, whereas they still remain doing burrowing elsewhere deep benneath all Middle-Earth for furtherly connections for their master return on the Last Battle perhaps.
Another awesome video. Glad you loved the ring! Thank you
Absolutely love the channel!! Easily one of my top 3 Tolkien related channels on YT. 👏🏼👏🏼
What are the other two? Just curious. :D
I like your tiger Tony pronuntiation, Morrrrrrgoth, Meldoniarrrre!
Your story telling sounds awesome 😮
Thank you very much! I'm glad you like it!
Very good work sir 👏
Very informative. Thank you Sir.
Nothing says "Lord of Evil" as not one - but two! - enormous fortresses populated by evil spirits, orcs, Balrog, and even the Nameless Things, beings so horrible and ancient, even speaking of them would darken the world and make it less joyful! After hearing of just how vile Melkor Morgoth was, I was surprised he never threw opens those black vaults and let those evils out as some hideous joke!
I'm curious... where did you get the information that the attack on Utumno lasted for a thousand years? That's rather mind-bending but may help to explain how 144 elves multiplied into small nations
That attack on Utumno happened before the Ages of the Sun, so the way that time is calculated is a bit different:
The Siege of Utumno lasted from 1092 in the Years of the Trees to 1099. That sounds short with only 7 Valian Years, but, as is explained best in "the Nature of Middle-earth", as each Valian Year is equal to 144 solar years, this means the siege lasted 1,008 of our years (plus or minus a bit, as it didn't last EXACTLY 7 Valian Years per se, ofc).
I hope this answers your question
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse Fantastic 👍🏼 I actually have a copy of Nature of Middle-Earth but have not read it yet. The date range of 1092-1099 is also found there?
No, those 2 dates are from Morgoth's Ring, "Second section of the Annals of Aman"
@@MysteriesOfWesternesse Thank you so much for working diligently with your sources 👍🏼
We try our best. And we're happy to be able to help you 👍🏼
excellent work, im a superfan
im a big super mean looking city brawler, but secretly i am one of the many members of the Lord of the Rings cult. shhhhh, keep me secret, keep me safe, i cant afford the hit on my reputation for crying about hobbits when nobodys looking. heheheeeee *winks*
Cringe
@@jarlwhiterun7478 hahahaha
Interesting video, however, Angband and Utumno are not equivalent to hell. So, in Tolkien's world was there a hell?
It depends on our interpretation of "hell".
Within the lore, "Angband" is Sindarin for "Iron Hell", and "Utumno" is Quenya for "Hell".
In the western cultural context, "hell" is usually the place where the devil resides and where all evil things come from. In that sense, Angband and Utumno were very much indeed a hell in the way we understand it, as Melkor Morgoth is the supernatural, primordial being that is the source and active progenitor of all evil, and thus a very fitting equivalent to the devil in that context.
If we add the subterranean trait to the requirements, this still applies, albeit better to Utumno than to Angband. Angband was so deep that the excavated material piled up created the largest mountain range in Middle-earth, but Utumno was so deep and vast underground that even the Valar couldn't destroy it altogether, and it is theorised that its caverns stretched throughout much of Middle-earth, and were the reason Durin's Bane could make its way to Khazad-dûm.
If we, however, go by the trait that hell needs to be in a separate dimension than the main, physical one, then I fear that there was no such thing in Eä, as that was the only dimension created in the Ainulindalë, and outside of it is only the Timeless Halls that are the dwelling of Eru and the remaining Ainur.
In Christian culture, "hell" is where evil people will go in the afterlife. In that regard Utumno and Angband are nothing like hell.
I realize that Tolkien's Legendarium parallels myth, but some of it has never made sense to me. If the elves were all alone, and had neither sword nor spear no armor, why didn't Melkor simply swarm down from Utumno and destroy them? I know, I know-- because that makes for a short and unexciting story. But still, I've never been happy about these sort of inconsistencies.
The in-lore reason would be that it was never Melkor's goal to destroy the elves. He wanted domination, and to be king of the ashes is not domination, it is outlasting.
Melkor wanted to bend the Music of the Ainur to his will and vision, and within Arda that meant trying to reshape and control things, not just kill
Heck yeah
Missed opportunity to not call the title “Hell *on* Middle Earth.
666 likes as I watch this video! Very fitting lol 😂
Great video keep up the good work
You shall not pass................a drug test .
I like this first form of Melkor, it makes him appear like a mega-balrog... which in essence he is
More like mega-Sauron. The Balrog were warriors. The Dark Lords were overly ambitious schemers.
@@similaritiesendhere What I mean is, the maiar that aligned with Melkor before the world's formation were the balrogs, they harmonised with Melkor before the world was created, and seeing as "Valar" and "Maiar" are the same order of being (Ainur) just with radically different levels of power, it makes sense that Melkor would look like a mega-balrog.
Sauron would never look like this as he aligned himself with Aule before the world's formation. So he incarnated with "smithery" and the like in mind, whereas the Balrogs incarnated with "fire and power" in mind.
@@blazednlovinit None of Tolkien's descriptions of Melkor describe him as looking (or behaving) like a Balrog. He even has a fair form like Sauron.
As far as Melkor not being a "Smith", Tolkien describe's Melkor's ring as being Arda itself. Literally forged his evil into every atom of the universe.
@@similaritiesendhere Yeah, inference usually does mean that something isn't explicitly mentioned, else it would be so obvious as to be not worth pointing out :)
Melkor literally isn't the smith because it's Aule who is the smith :)
@@blazednlovinit You clearly need to reread the Silmirillion because what made Melkor special was that he was good at everything while the other Valar specialized in one thing.
I’d give Doomguy a day to destroy it since it’s Hell.
soon sorted out with a few HIMARs
Wow ads at the start of video, then integrated ads after that and ads right after integrated ads, yeah nah i am leaving, bye forever
Lol all the maps of LOTR lands are so ugly