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I would love to see you guys do an analysis of the following: Good Girls (season 1&2), The Good Place (seasons 1-3), the Marvelous Miss Maisel (seasons 1-2), the movie Us by Jordan Peele, Fullmetal Alchemist(:Brotherhood), and Akira (as they’re about to do a live action remake). Though, honestly, I think you’d both do an amazing job analyzing fascism in media in the 2010’s, based on what I saw of your analysis in this video, and in that case there’s a whole variety of things to pick from. I think it’s a bit unsettling how prominent it is in global media franchises, and not always explicitly. You have obvious ones like “the man in the high castle” (which, being Jewish, I couldn’t even get through a few episodes) or anime phenoms like “attack on titan” (which has unfortunate racial implications as well) that are more subtle in their presentation.
Leave him alone he was D whipped man. He had Dany on the brain for a time the loins too. But he sobered up quick when Tyrion told him about his two sisters being threatened. Dany wasn't going to let them live she brought that out in her victory speech. Jon misguided love for Dany along with his misplaced loyalty didn't flinch, but Jon is a man of honor the hero of this story he had to bring the villain down by any means necessary, he tried to reason with her attempting to find any traces of the woman he fell in love with, when all else subsequently failed he had no other choice but to end her life tragic though necessary.
Ok guy actually, the credit goes to the groundwork laid in past seasons... As well as probably the books. It's fairly easy to understand why things would end this way all along. But the last season ruined all that work by thinking it was enough. Though there were glimpses of madness in Dany all along, she never directly kills innocent people because of it. And we are given significant proof that she would be against doing that. So to just flip that switch without showing us what changes she had to go through to get to that point (even after they surrender) ... It's just real fucking lazy.
The closest thing to Dany's story is Alexander the Great. Told since childhood that he was destined to be the ruler of all Greeks. Still grew anxious as to whether his siblings would try to take his birthright. As an adult led from the front and exposed himself to very great danger. Told by the people he conquered that he was a god, he came to believe it. Burned a great foreign city (Persopolis) in an act of drunken madness. Killed his best friend similarly (mean drunk!). Rumored to be poisoned by his own men who were tired of a decade of non-stop conquering. Punished those same men by going back home through the worse possible route. The pithiest way of summarizing Dany's story is the most famous, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Twenty-five hundred years ago, Socrates told the story of the "Ring of Gyges", which became Wagner's "Ring of the Nibelung", which became Tolkien's "Ring of Power", which became Martin's "Iron Throne". By the way, Dany's last outfit was definitely designed by the Westerosi Hugo Boss.
One of the 20th century's greatest Alexander scholars wrote an article on this, I believe in 1965. You should check out Ernst Badian's 'Alexander the Great and the loneliness of power'. It's more on the internal power struggle between Alexander and his own officer corps/nobility, and reframe a lot of his actions within this context. Ex: the different plots against his life are in reality excuses to purge the old traditionalists from command, and replace them with his own inner circle.
Now That's a comment, full of historical knowledge and thought-provoking analysis!! Truly Dany's appearance (the outfit, the huge Targaryen Banner, the militaristic setting) was very Hitlerersque! You should have much more likes :)
@@Sophia.Stark17 Thanks. It was Albert Speer who set up the look of the Nuremberg Rallies, and it was Leni Riefenstahl who used those settings to film, perhaps the most famous propaganda film of all time, "Triumph of the Will". Both Speer's and Leni Riefenstahl's influence are very visible in this episode.
@@RayeGunn Robespierre is certainly the modern prototype of the intellectual who is 100% sure that he knows what's best for the masses. So sure , in fact, that he will order the imprisonment and the deaths of thousands. Because (paraphrasing), "if they are against my ideas, they must evil". The ill-defined but all encompassing term, "enemies of the revolution" used by Lenin, Mao, Castro and, now, Chavez and Maduro, started with him. Nietzsche knew the history of revolutions and warned against, becoming the monster you seek to fight. Notice that in The US, the Revolution was never the thing to protect and defend. It was and is, The Constitution; a set of laws on how to run a country with the consent of the governed, not by an all knowing intellectual.
I agree. Final season was a mess, but DAMN those actors worked hard with what they had. They did everything they could to sell that shit even though they KNEW it was terrible.
I’m glad you took the time to talk about how Dany was a victim of her own making, not because of her heritage. So many people online are blaming Dany’s death on her “Targaryen madness” and that she was going to die as a result of it. The truth is, Daenerys has always been to me a stable character, and any ruthlessness and rage she displayed was not because of her blood, but because of her passion and ambition to make the world a better place according to her. She undid herself and her obsession with her apparent destiny was what led to her death, not because her father was mentally unstable. Clearly the people who think this have not been paying close attention to the details in the story and Daenerys’ character.
Why did she destroy the city her family built and kill everyone? I agree that's not necessarily madness. It is, however, irrational and stupid. Dany was never either one of those things. Too in love with her own fabulousness yes but that's not the same thing.
That's how I always saw it. Her arrogance was her downfall. She has this belief that she knows better, that she IS better, we see it time and time again in the way she deals with other people. And as Tyrion says, this creates a snowball effect over time that eventually makes her believe that EVERYTHING she does is perfect and just.
@@Himaryous It is very rational: 1) KL is also the city that exiled her family and supported the usurper, a city that has a bad reputation to pretty much everyone outside it ('You know why I came to this sh*thole of a city? To kill you.'), and is largely regarded as the ultimate den of corruption and intrigue. Can you really build a new world with such a vile place as its center? Even worse, these bastards instead of fighting Cersei FLOCK TO HER FOR PROTECTION! You think Dany is the kind of gal who'll forgive that sh*t? 2) Also, let's not forget, Dany is just one dragon-busting-crossbow away from having NOTHING. How long before someone else perceives her mercy as a weakness and starts giving her attitude? How long before someone tries to pull the same trick Euron pulled? She is in a position where she absolutely needs to send a strong message for no one to ever f*** with her again.
Or perhaps people who think Jerkinoff and Wuss were adapting the story with all that you just projected into it without discussing any of the OTHER source material they started plagiarizing/paraphrasing in the most egregiously thin ways the further out on that ledge without Martin they got need to grab a Western Civ/World History 101 book, a freshman literature text, and the commentary from Jerkinoff and Wuss. Suddenly you'll realize that they actually WERE ripping off "madness" in a very literal way, from Cato the Elder getting angry as he looked over defeated Carthage from the walls, growing more and more ticked off about the youth he spent at war to defeat the former #1 power of the ancient world to put Rome on top despite Carthage's surrender, deciding to use his rage as the fire to convince other Romans to give up on mercy and build a coalition that would agree to put the city to the torch...to ripping off the French Revolution's speeches on liberty, fraternity, equality, and tyranny as Robespierre took them right over the edge into the madness of the Terror ("All right, let it be fear," as Dany's hair gets all unkempt and overnight she is suddenly even looking like the portraits of wild-haired and wild-eyed Robespierre)...and on and on it goes. They just grabbed some relevant speeches from the events Martin does do a great job at deconstructing, broke out a thesaurus, threw together some synonyms and a little rubber glue to produce a script with enough crap stuck in there that with Sapochnik's big combat spectacles that they thought they could just make it out safely without anyone realizing what screw ups they were without nearly the layers you think you were seeing on that screen! Seriously, if my students turned in papers to me that so obviously ripped off things without documentation and just used thinly veiled synonyms in such ridiculous way, I'd be really torn between wanting them to have to start the class all over again and see if they could actually learn something with a second run through and wanting to kick them out of my class and send that mess over to the academic ethics board!
@@SerbAtheist Then again, if you're just ONE dragon-busting crossbow away from having NOTHING, you might want to think about a new plan besides relying on the ONE dragon to help you conquer the world and keep all rebellions suppressed.
"It's that ultimately this strongest and best of people couldn't withstand the temptations of ultimate power". And that my friends, is the fundamental theme of Game of Thrones; "There are no good kings". I just wish they had at the very least another full season to flesh this out. We saw "The Mad Queen" coming. We just wish the "madness" appeared more earned than it did.
Yup.... and then we end the show with another king. Elected, albeit, by noble landlords, but nothing else has really changed. Still has absolute power.
Well, not quite. One could say that a good king is a wise king, wise enough to find himself advisors who can keep him in place while he keeps them. like ying and yang, always keeping each other in balance and peace.
@@ReporterRed Yes and no. He does have absolute power but remember, he tells Tyrion that he doesn't really 'want' things anymore. I think his status as Three Eyed Raven will help keep him on the straight and narrow. And after he's dead the next ruler will be elected rather than born into it. So I think they have a much better chance now.
I will start by saying that I loved the Mad Queen twist, I think that it definitely has Martin's influence as a plot point and we will witness it in the books as well! *BUT* : it was rushed, we did not see it unfolding gradually and we were also robbed of the chance to feel how tragic a character was Daenerys!! Her death should be lyrical, as a punishment for the hubris she commited, while believing she was doing the right thing! The moment was so anticlimactic, I felt nothing. Btw, Kudos to Emilia, that one look in "The Bells" spoke volumes, imagine what she would do with a full Mad Queen script in her hands.
It's strange how I know exactly what 'look' of Dany's you're talking about just by mentioning the episode name because that's how well played out it was
I can't argue with anyone who complained about Dany's descent into evil and madness, but the end results are all the same acceptable it was in the cards all along, how they got there fell on the writers who made do with what they had, but this makes Dany one of the greatest villains/victims of all time in my opinion.
@RheyaRu!z It was inevitable the signs were always there, don't get it twisted Dany was inherently good, she did what she could with what she had to make the world a better place, but in the back of our minds despite the fact, we saw that potentially at any given moment Dany could turn heel which she ultimately did, the best villains are usually the heroes of their own stories.
I agree completely Miguel. There were various points throughout season 8 where I was thinking "this scene isn't having the emotional impact it should, because we were in such a rush to get here." The message may have still been there, but it certainly wasn't told as powerfully as it could have been.
I agree with you U X. People are mad because their blonde goddess was anything but. I binged watched the show from season 1 to 7, two years ago and even then, I could see that she was on the path of becoming an ENTITLED tyrant. My feelings were confirmed when she killed Samwell's Father and Brother. Who cares if his father was a dick? That was still HIS FAMILY. And she burned them AFTER THEY SURRENDERED... Just like she did in The Bells. When Jon Snow told her about the children and she tried to blame it on Cersei... That was bullshit. THE BELLS WERE RUNG... Making Cersei's rule at an end. When she burned the city she was supposed to save... That was all ON HER. Especially since Missandre GAVE DAENY THE DRAGON'S 🐉CODE WORD TO BURN 🔥 THE CITY BEFORE SHE WAS EXECUTED!!! But no. People don't want to see that. They want their cute blonde goddess.
@@robynsegg Yes, and Arya joined a death-worshipping cult, cooked human beings and fed them to their father, poisoned other human beings who may not have all been involved in her family's death without any due trial. Sansa fed a human being to his dogs and watched with pleasure as he was dying. Jon Snow cut off the head of a guy who already agreed to obeying him and hung a child. Are they all deranged? Taken (intentionally) out of context all the characters are horrible people. As for the writers whose sole responsibility this debacle is, when I see the bolts going through ship hulls like that... cannons can't do that, only rail guns, a 21st century technology still in its infancy. Do they have any idea how thick a ship's hull was? Naval cannons had to come into very close range to... maybe make a hole in the hull... maybe, if its lucky. The characters and everything became pawns to the writers to hurry the f**k out of the show. When the writers tell me it's the end of the Dothraki, but then I see them respawned like in video games. When they tell me that Daenerys, after having repeatedly spoken about Euron, including in the same episode, "kind of forgot" about him, then it's clear to me that the writers are insulting me (feels like gaslighting) and there is nothing deeper to it. Even worse, they tell me the best leader is the one who doesn't want the job. Please go to a job interview in real life and tell them you don't want the job, see if they hire you. Because the best leaders DO want to lead. What special merits did Bran have? What exactly did he contribute to defeating the Night King to be elected as king? Stories? :))))))) They tell me Tyrion's punishment for treason is becoming the second most powerful person in the country that he betrayed. I don't recall VP Benedict Arnold. There was no deeper message to this season and season 7 to be completely honest. What made Game of Thrones a great show was the realism and the ambiguity they threw to the side in favour of pretty frames and shots and Disney logic (stories... season 2 Tyrion would slap season 8 Tyrion like Joffrey for talking like some Disney character). So all the things Daenerys did weren't "on her" as a natural progression of the character, it was on the writers who wanted to end the show quickly and move on.
@@octavianpopescu4776 First of all, you went by way of China to make your point... A good chunk of what you wrote could have been edited. 2nd, yes all of those people did truly horrible things, but the difference in your examples is that with the exception of Jon Snow and the Knight Watch, they were not LEADERS. Arya went overboard on her vengeance and it was truly turning her into a piece of shit... To the point where she threatened her own sister with death. And yet The Hound supposedly saves her at the end. As for Sansa, really tho? Even I can understand why she did that. Ramsey raped her and forced Theron to WATCH HER be raped who he physically and mentally abused the poor kid AND cut off his dick. He killed his family including his newborn brother. He killed Ricken for fun. And skinned countless people alive including an elderly woman, to the point where the activity is placed on his sigle. Not to mention starving his own dogs. All Sansa did was lock his ass in. Jon Snow did his deeds because those treasonous fools killed him, even tho he was brought back to life. And even he had REMORSE for hanging the kid. Dany had NONE OF THAT. The people she killed was ORDINARY PEOPLE. And again, she made her choice AFTER THE PEOPLE SURRENDERED BY DEMANDING CERSEI TO RING THE BELLS, which she eventually did. Dany destroyed the town she was supposed to save. And she would have done the same to Winterfell and everywhere else if she had the chance. This was how the writers wrote it because Cesrei and Dany were two sides of the same coin. But I'm guessing your too enraptured by Dany to see this. The show is over, Grover. And Dany is dead. Get over it.
It's not "darkness". It's the *abyss* "Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster And always remember - when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you" The Iron Throne is here the abyss. It is Will to Power twisted into its most ugly, cruel, violent form. It is all the cruelties that were needed to make the animal "man" into a regular, orderly, faithful creature who may then be *ruled* It is the history of "civilization" embodied as a throne. It is History itself, written by the rulers. But this is only *one* history, and there would be others. After all, the moral arc of the universe (World Reason) is long...
@@mattgilbert7347 I was paraphrasing, you quote nazi! :) The "darkness" is the iron throne in this case. Absolute power in the form of a razor sharp chair. The closer Dany gets to it and the more selfish/ambitious she is, the darker her costume is. When she is acting selflessly, her costume is a light/pale colour. Its a small detail but that was my context.
It really bothers me that Dany in episode 6 was so delusional about what she'd done. She legitimately tried to argue she only killed innocents that Cersei used as shields. Dany turning into a tyrant would have been a fantastic end to her arc, if it hadn't been so rushed, but I can't accept her brain falling out.
You could argue that Missandei's death blinded her judgement and being so close to getting the iron throne just made her not care anymore. There was a phrase relating to power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
You know she has the near same situation as Joffrey though in terms of genetics right? Which, imo is sort of insensitive of George, but there is historical precedent of rulers born of heavy incest would sometimes "go mad" after a serious loss and extensive grief, like the death of a loved one. Dany's parents weren't twins thankfully but they were siblings. This means she shares 75% of her DNA with her brother AND her father. Who were, objectively both abusive and struggling with mental issues, likely early onset Alzheimer's. It's a real case of "reality is unrealistic" because, like life, sometimes there isn't a neat or clear "break," people just deteriorate in ways we don't ever fully understand. We don't usually see it coming until it's too late.
I think your upset that Dany for all her good intentions, they say 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' strung you along all this time as self-made liberator, and self professed savior of the masses, with divine power destined for greatness, which is a two-way street the bottom suddenly fell out, this is Game of Thrones there's no happily ever afters, to quote Ramsey Bolton 'if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.'
I agree it was rushed, but imo the delusional part was correct. Tons of imperial regimes use the excuse that innocents were human shields to justify civilian casualties. It’s pretty much America’s go to excuse for drone wars and military strikes that lead to innocents dying, and what is a dragon but a magic drone?
MorninStar yeah, except for Stannis, you saw how the choices he made ended him up with killing his daughter and brother. You saw that even though he loved his daughter, he clearly had enough disdain for her that he would leave her locked up underground. So the leap didn't feel that far. For Dany, it was like they tried to jump from one end of a football field to another. When she was looking disheveled, her best friend just died, of course, she is going to mourn. That in no way signals that she has gone mad and is willing to kill innocent people who weren't even there when missandei died. Though her concern for people was declining, those people she killed were not innocent in her eyes. Even Jon and Ned killed people who disobeyed them, and they were not mad rulers. But she knew till the very end that she had killed innocent people because she said as much when she tried to justify it using Cersei as her scapegoat. There was never any clear change in her that would make this believable. @Emily Amaro People going mad is NEVER sudden. It's just that we don't see the things their mind had to go through to get to the breaking point. The point of storytelling is that we get to see that. We saw glimpses of what she was capable of, but there was really no proof she would ever cross that line. Had they not wrung the bells... All the way, I could have seen her making that choice. There was significant lead up to that. Because using her own logic, they would have disobeyed her by not surrendering.
@@sergioivan ruthless with enemies doesnt equal burning innocent children! There wasnt enough time given to show the unravelling of her mental state! Now id like to hear an actual argument from u instead of slandering someone's opinion
Sergio Iván González relax. You’re telling me it’s not the least but potentially dubious to have the show turn around and say “don’t cheer on someone who eviscerates objectively evil people like rapists, tyrants, and fucking slave owners because then you’re just creating a worse evil”? That’s incredibly iffy messaging.
This ending is probably what George RR Martin was planning, and it does make sense. It was just the pacing and built up to that ending from the show was bad, and that is why we are mad about it. However, based on this analysis everything do make sense! Can't wait to read the book when it come out though to see what it has planned all along
Season 7 was rushed, add those missing episodes to fill in travel, time jumps and magical transportation of armys. Season 8 had the Night King and army, episode 3 was good, maybe great. BUT, it had plenty of flaws. Most of the problem is in what felt like an unresolved ending with lots of unanswered questions. This was supposed to be a Winter that lasted years and it barely lasted months. The Night King waited 1000 since his last attack and once the dragon melts a hole in the wall marchs straight to Winterfell? They could have used episodes one and two and a (third or fourth) to better build up the threat of the White Walkers. They showed the remains of House Umber how about showing some other houses forced to flee short on provisions as they are attacked. What if some small groups White Walkers did head south of Winterfell and decide to stay and wait for the Night King (they put all their eggs in one basket) They use this time to explain more of the Night Kings origin and motives - he is more than just a force of nature that wants to end the history of man. Maybe him and Bran have a mental confrontation - one where it is established that the Night King has a personal vendetta against the 3-eyed Raven and that is why he will do the act himself. Then we are able to head into the final episodes without the preexisting aftertaste of disappointing storytelling hoping the finally will overwhelm us somehow.
The main reasons why season 8 was so terrible was because D&D told us instead of showed us "Danaerys has refused to eat", Show us! Time jumps, plot holes, lack of build up or not paying off on build up like the golden company. Plot convinieces are everywhere, respawning armies, poor tactical and political decisions and characters doing things they wouldn't normally do. Tormund said he was going north of the wall, it took Jon 6 weeks to get to kings landing then he waited on Dragonstone, then they attacked and he was imprisoned for about 3 weeks, then went up to the wall which took a minimum of 6 weeks. Was Tormund waiting at Castle Black for 3 months?
@@SkaterBlades You've made a very good argument in my opinion. Also, your first line... that is pretty illuminating when you think about it because the question becomes 'Was she NOT eating because of her recent emotional losses? Or was it because the one she TRUSTED with her food & drink was gone: Missandei? If it's the 'latter' has she been paranoid since some tried to poison her in Quarth (which would make sense) or was she paranoid since the Witch killed her family and progressively becoming more & more so over time? Reminding ourselves that BEFORE Jon came to Dragonstone, only the people who LOVED her was around her while after the victory over the Night King Jon noticed she wasn't eating or really drinking! Was that because of where she was? Totally understandable & smart or was it genuine paranoia? A short conversation between perhaps Greyworm and Missandei could cleared that up. Too lazy to do it. Just proclaiming her MAD because she won't eat is ignorant (many commenters & reviewers have done that) but *if they had SHOWED us like you suggest,* we might have seen that she hasn't been eating 'properly' for a very long time and we know that the lack of a balanced diet weakens the body & soul over time... Would have been a 'measurable' variable that squarely introduced us to the idea that she ultimately had a 'breakdown' whether Emotional OR Mental.
I was a huge Dany fan and before this video I had a realy hard time accepting she would end up like this despite knowing Martin had probably planned this ending since the beginning. For me it was not just the build up that we can all agree was horrible. It was also the fact that her ending in the show was (for her) purely bitter and no "good guy" death was ever like this before. Dany just like Stannis did not want the throne at all she just felt it was her duty/she was destined to. But all she ever wanted was to go home to bravos to the house with the red doors and a lemon tree and peace. She also had a soft spot for a familly. And so we have been watching this character grow, try to stay as sane and good as possible just to loose anyone she ever cared for and be killed by the last living person she loved? This is very subjective but ending like that is realy disappointing and ruined this storyline for me. It just makes you ask yourself "What was the point of it then? She could have died at the very beginning and nothing would change" And while the philosophy explanation in this video sounds quite good. It is still just a general phylosophy that does mean one has to go mad. And while it has been forshadowed a madness will become a strugle for her at some point she feels still very stable in both the books and episode 4 of season 8. And while im sure george will make her ending sence and make it actually bittersween and not just bitter. The wounds were made and part of me just does not want to read her storyline anymore because of the show ending.
@@conniethesconnie I would say episode 3 was a great ending to the white walkers (although im still mad we did not see night king or any of his generals actually fight). Its very fitting in my opinion that the winter was stopped at winterfell that was also build by the same guy who did build the wall. The biggest problem was we did not have any episodes where white walkers would be recognized as a danger to the whole continent or they would do any damage but to destroy last heart. My opinion about the first half of season 8 is very unpopular but Id say those episodes we got were great. The problem is with those episodes that we did not get... Those that would setup their defeat better
I understood in the end that Dany’s arc was a tragedy about a good person that was corrupted and driven mad by the pursuit of power. I so wish that her turn to darkness was done better in the show, but at least I’ve got the books to look forward to!
when Dany says that she couldn't count to 20, it was foreshadowing the fact that HBO wanted to make 2 fulls seasons of 10 episodes each but D&D refused in order to move on to their Star Wars trilogy... (and I'm only half joking here. I think there is a good chance this is the actual subtext, as a stealth taunt to the audience)
Still there was no motivation for Daenerys to burn the city to the ground. That Cersei used the people as a weapon does not explain to kill everyone, because it did not help to disempower Cersei. The glance on the red keep implies to fly directly to the red keep and kill Cersei directly. Cersei was the one, who killed her friend, her dragon, who had, what she wanted. Still the writers described her aggression against the people as "to make this personal". That is no explanation, it does not even make sense. Daenerys cannot reign through fear after killing her subjects. She also did not make a "personal point" with it. Also the fascist images do not fit here, because fascists killed specific groups as scape goats, not everybody. Even if she is unjustly entitled, even if her old-testamentarian "an eye for an eye" moral code can be understood as a one-way-ticket to tyranny, her decision does not make sense. Her character collapsed into irrational madness and nothing of that was "foreshadowed".
"I know a killer when I see one" this Arya line is so funny, she's just literally wiped out a city and she's acting like this is some special insight her training has given her. People make fun of Jon's boring dialogue in this season but he was never the smartest, they never made him say something this dumb.
she was speaking in Jon's regard. Jon still thought there was a way to talk her down from what she had become. Arya's words was a warning that she would eventually turn on Jon if things were allowed to continue. She fought against the forces of the dead but yet still decided to destroy the city full of innocents, She already had it in her head to do so before Tyrion and Varys sway her by pointing out how people will view the actions and the consequences and even then she settles on making sure the people understood Cersei fucked them before Dany destroyed them all instead of doing what was right. Dany named her win conditions from the start, but she did not stay true to them.
This is what happens when you give stupid people subliminal messages to figure out on their own. The weak little brains just can't put the pieces together. Your comment is absolute proof that some people need everything explained to them like they're a 6 year old.
I usually love the analysis, but the selective quoting bothers me to a degree. We're supposed to believe that Missandei is a servant not an equal because Davos, who is Jon's servant after he was Stannis's servant, questions her agency. Mad Dany says she has no doubts and no compunctions after seven seasons of Dany constantly seeking guidance and questioning herself. I don't doubt that the writers have retroactively erased from their own memory Dany's sanity and mercy, but having Tyrion, who Dany stopped from selling Mereen back into slavery and who witnessed Dany ban fighting pits in disgust and who witnessed her spare the Great Master's soldiers became a mouthpiece for a story turn that was unjustified. Edit: Also showing a shot of Daenerys shouting "Where are my dragons!" After her surrogate children were stolen from her and claiming this is evidence of her being a tyrant is almost as manipulative as D&D saying her first sign of being cruel was her not crying when her abusive brother who threatened to kill her unborn child was killed. The overarching theme of this season is that Dany can't be more kind than others because it makes her dangerously emotional, she can't care about family too much because it makes her dangerously emotional, and she can't have power because she'll eventually be dangerously emotional. But everyone else is allowed.
Pretty much THIS. It's like Melisandre quoting herself wrong ("...and blue eyes") just to fit the situation. There is no hidden meaning in their writing. They just go along. They put in a additional child of Cersei just to retcon it with the prophecy. They forgot that Davos and Sam already knew about dragonglass when John asked where to find some. They let Dany ask who the lord of Storms End is and not a single lord can answer the question. As if Storms End is just a small castle with no strategic value. You know why? Because they completely forget about it! That's their level of competence. They forget what was said by whom. They are not smart writers. And at this point I really doubt that they ever cared slightly about the story of the books.
There is a big difference between being a servant after a life of independence, making one's own choices and personality development, like Davos, and being a servant after being a slave all one's life. The sccene with GW, Missandrei and Tyrion just showed how much work the former two still had to do in just developing their personalities. It reminded me of an English teacher in North Korea, who had trouble explaining to their students how to write an essay because the concept of having one's own opinion and arguing it still seemed way too alien.
Excellent comment. Adding to your last note... The double standards. The awful bloody 𝘥𝘰𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘳𝘥𝘴. First example, Sansa feeds her tormentor to his dogs. Second, Arya feeds a man his children, then uses his face to slaughter his house for vengeance. You know what those bits really were? Empowering feminist moments™! Dany can't get away with crucifying the slave owners because 𝘮𝘢𝘺𝘣𝘦 some of them weren't okay with the mass child crucifixions... they were just okay with the 'owning slaves' part. These double standards were at their absolute worst during these last few seasons. Foreshadowing doesn't mean shit if everyone's being held to different standards of acceptable behavior. Sorry for the rant ;-)
@@trigunfox2325 she only ever had mercy to those who worshipped her. Dany had a messiah complex about herself, where she believed that the people of the world should fight for her within an instant of her arrival. Because the people of King's Landing didn't overthrow Cersei for her (which led to the deaths of one of her dragons and Missandie), they were enemies to her. And we know how she treats enemies. To her, the civilians of Kings Landing were not innocents.
@@trigunfox2325 She was mad and drunk with power like her father(Aerys) and brother(Viseys) as a result of "Targaryen madness". Do you have a better explanation?
Fantastic explanation on why & how she justified her actions. I really love your point on Dany was the best of people, and power still corrupted her (although I don’t get why Jon is somehow the only one who can be close to it without being tempted, kinda defeats the point, but also why I am glad he didn’t end upon the throne). I also like that you highlighted that the way the murder was framed was...questionable. I just still don’t understand why she decided to kill all those innocents in the first place, when the more logical and consistent thing to do would have been to burn the red keep itself, the symbol of all that was taken away + where Cersei was.
danny was not logical when it came to punish her enemies but before she had friends that could stop her from going to far, if jorah, missandei and barristan where alive that would not have happen
Why does the U.S. bomb non-combatants by the dozens to kill a few terrorists? Hollow morals and narcissistic worldviews (in our case, US exceptionalism) allow for the dehumanization of both threats and innocents alike. When I ask war mongers who supported Obama's drone strikes why it's okay to slaughter civilians in the name of justice and liberation, they parrot that they are just collateral damage for a just cause. They literally parrot what Dany said, that to kill them would allow her to "free" future generations. This is the delusion Dany has been living under since she destabilized Slaver's Bay, just like we've been living under our delusions since we destabilized Iraq and Afghanistan.
SpiderMark M. idk, correct me if I’m wrong but I do not recall her having anything but pity and compassion for children at least. Even after she burned them all, she knew these innocents did nothing wrong, in contrast to the past killings where she thought her victims did actions that warranted her brutality. She locked up two of her dragons after drogon killed a kid. Seemed to indicate to me that her internal moral structure is overwhelmingly simplistic-innocents, enemies and allies. I am not saying that she’s never been cruel, I am simply saying that for her to attack innocents when she didn’t need to and taking into account her past moral framing-seems inconsistent to me.
Emily Amaro I am not American so not sure if my response would be too relevant, and although I appreciate the « freedom » parallel you just made, I do not necessarily agree with it. I think a large part as to why some ppl believe this type of narrative is their distance from the ground. In my experience, it is much more difficult to buy such an incongruent narrative-that to free people you must kill innocents when you easily could not have done so-when you see the killings for yourself, on the ground, and hear the screams of the people. Dany’s position, that of a perpetrator, and the people you are talking about-removed, detached and brainwashed, seem different to me.
TGB This is just the way I saw it, but I don’t think that Dany really made it a point to kill the innocent. When she decides to burn the city, I don’t think the innocent or the people are even a thought in her head. I think that she just chooses to make it personal, and the innocents were included on the receiving end of it. Also, the way she words it suggests that she doesn’t think that she killed them, but rather that Cersei killed them. Dany says that Cersei used their innocence as a weapon against her; she takes no responsibility for the killing. It all ends up as Cersei’s fault; it was Cersei who instigated everything, and it was Cersei who put the people there. So, in Dany’s mind, the deaths are all Cersei’s fault. Cersei is the reason they are dead, so Cersei is the one who killed them. I personally feel like the final season was very rushed, and they did the best they could under the constraints imposed. But I also don’t want to say Dany doing this is out of character or character assassination, because her behavior was both foreshadowed and contextualized within her hero’s journey. Foreshadowing is not development, but I think that it’s important to remember that everyone around Dany saw her as the hero, and she did too, because it was her story. Again, this is just the way I saw it.
Good video. Daenerys was like Icarus , she was too close of the sun ( the ultimate power) , and she has fallen from high. In game of thrones who is too high must fall. Her story is the best example of all the philosophy of the saga, with the problems exposed all along the saga, and solved at the end. How the main characters end, fits very well with the philosophy of the saga , the relation to power, war, etc....
Can we talk about how this is all Tyrion’s fault Danny came to kings landing and said she should fly with the three dragons to the red kept and rip Cersei out Tyrion said no thinking of his family if Danny would have followed her intuition little blood would have been spilled but now we have another system of conniving and bull Bran elected king, Bron appointed master of coin kickbacks and payola. When Bran dies in what three hundred years with his multiple superpowers how will a new king be chosen through bribery and intimidation.
Even if I were to accept your explanation for this nonsense ending, a much more powerful story in my opinion would have been Jon acting as the compliment to the flaws in her character and helping to reform her instead of killing her. Killing her to me shows cynicism on the part of an author who knows no other message to articulate other than violence, ultimately, while claiming to be an anti war proponent.
Good point. In spite of the time since it was made I wanted to mention that. Plus killing her should've had Ned Stark like impacts which would kick off more wars and suffering-not less.
12 likes… yikes. A guy of the very people that got mad with the “Mad Queen” arc. Compliment her flaws? Reform her? This ain’t a Sandra Bullock rom-com, maybe Disney would pick up those lesser powerful stories you think of
Friend of mine told me before I started watching this series: "People don't like it because they didn't get the ending that *THEY wanted. Doesn't necessarily mean that it was a bad ending. Ridiculous comments like yours and other people I see prove that completely. Some people are corrupt by power. Once that happens, a person can get drunk with it. She wasn't only drunk with power, she was drunk with rage, jealousy, and grief. All that was fueled by hatred, pain, and revenge. There is a point of no return for every human being. For you simpletons not to pick up on that, it's just sad.
The real sad part? Jon actually thought he was trying to save Daenerys. He looked every bit as heartbroken as Tyrion was when the last Lannister argued for the death of his queen.
I really like the acknowledgement that the in-show character building that resulted in her burning down KL was the 30 seconds where her face became full of rage. Perfect video that talks about Dany’s journey while also pointing out the poor execution and problematic ending-something that D&D accelerated at. I’d hate to be married to those bastards.
@@georgeleinberger8670 nice try attempting to shift the writers failure(s) to someone else, but it doesn't work that way. Either it's clear or it's not. Period.
The fact that they have to explain in videos afterwards why Dany makes the choice she does is very poor writing, plotting and character arc. Foreshadowing is not character development. I find this a poor ending, rushed and cheap. I am not totally upset that Dany meets her end, it is the weak way the writers did it.
Watch the previous season again and count how many times Dany suggests they could end the war by storming KL and how any civilians remaining within the walls are complicit in Cersei’s unjust rule. Consider that if they would turn on Cersei, what would they do to the foreign dragon queen when a handsome northerner turns out to have the better claim? All her advisors that cautioned against sacking KL are dead or are actively betraying her. Who’s left in her inner circle? Grey Worm, the brainwashed and castrated child soldier who’s only desires are to kill the masters, obey Daenerys, and get revenge for Missandi.
Your thoughtful analysis is truly one of the best that I've heard and it's helped me to appreciate season 8 even with it's flaws. The constant whining on other channels is now more depressing than Daenerys's death. Looking forward to more of your videos!
Pointing out huge plot holes and having trouble accepting that dany got full tyrant in like 2 episodes is not whining. Dany sacrificied her army and her throne to go help jon fight the army of the dead to save the lives of people she did know. But suddenly she wants to kill them all. If she was that tyrant all along she would not have sacrificied everything to fight the dead. Game of thrones used to be great and therefore people have expectations. People get flashed by the beautiful cinematographie and battles and forget that the best seasons used to be character driven and only had a fight per season. Your definition of whining would also include any form of criticism. Without criticism, things can never improve.
Rafaela Scheiwiller lmao no it doesn’t, please stop ignoring how self centered and narcissistic Dany has been since season one. She BURNED a gang rape victim alive. She coerced abused child soldiers into being her army for free, instead of giving them a life outside warfare. She doesn’t empower the Dothraki women she CONSOLIDATES they into militarized force and uses their brutality to subjugate a continent she never deserved. She adopted her brothers obsessions and delusions of grandeur right after he died, all the while acting like it was always her birthright, and you all fell for it because she was marginalized as a woman in a misogynistic world. News flash, so was Miri, and she was raped and her town slaughtered EXPLICITLY because Daenerys asks Drogo to help her take the Iron Throne. Dany was complicit in war crimes from SEASON ONE. She also burns anyone who doesn’t show her undying loyalty when she “saves them” and Miri was the first, KL was the final form of Daenerys’ rage for revenge (NOT the same as justice btw!!) This is the pivotal decision where she stops being solely a victim and complicit in war crimes for the first time. It’s obfuscated by how Dany and Drogo have this conversation while all lovey dovey. Go watch season one again and realize Dany was NOT righteous in her actions, and allowed her self righteous attitude to prevent her from ACTUALLY helping another woman of a different race combat misogyny. She never denies that she intended to raise her son as the “stallion who mounts the world” when Miri points out why it’s better that the genocidal family was stopped in its tracks. Think about that for a minute. Dany both in the horse heart ceremony and in Drogo’s war speech looks THRILLED, not horrified at the thought of rape and pillage going on in her name or by her future flesh and blood. Dany tried to white feminist her way with Miri and Miri instead did NOT show undying loyalty to her and her mass raping, mass murdering hubby. So she was violently executed in one of the worst ways imaginable. Again how is it your fave isn’t disturbed by the smell of burning flesh? It’s said to haunt people their whole lives and even make them wary of certain cooked meats because of ptsd. Dany seems to relish it and want more even when less brutal executions are literally always available. (Not that she didn’t f*ck up when she executed Mossador too.) Ya wanna know the only nation in our world today that has execution by FLAMETHROWER?? North Korea. Yikes. Your fave is more like North Korea than anything else in terms of human rights abuses. 😳 Before anyone says ‘oh but she killed her baby!’ No she didn’t, she talked more shit to twist the knife after Dany miscarried (she is a baby of sibling incest and she was pushed by a blood rider onto her stomach.... it’s pretty simple tbh) because she LITERALLY saw women and children beheaded and killed. She feels Dany is complicit and the she was. Remember that Dany accidentally gives Miri the chance to assassinate Drogo, because she’s really stupid enough to believe this woman loves her now and sees her as her savior, while he was sitting in front of a PILE OF HEADS from her town. HEADS. Dany is a sick weirdo for ever thinking Miri would develop Stockholm syndrome for Drogo like she did considering the setting. Girl never learned to read a room lmao take a look at how she died?? It’s the same exact reason Drogo was killed, her own ignorance. Dany is one of the most consistent characters on there y’all are just mad you fell for her god-complex and conquering mentality. Anyways, stop drone strikes and be an anti war activist like George 😬
Thank you! I finally found a video that spoke my mind. I’ve been defending the ending of Game of Thrones especially with Dany dying for three years. I always knew Jon was Frodo just because his best friend was Sam. It all made sense. Everything made sense. And I just get really tired of all the complaining and whining. I don’t know why people are so upset except the only thing I see was the problem was it was rushed.
Daenerys’ turn was not believable. If I’d have seen her kill innocents from Season 3 I wouldn’t have an issue. That character development just wasn’t there. People can talk about foreshadowing all they want. Foreshadowing does not equal character development. I hate that not enough people are discussing how underhanded and manipulative Sansa Stark became. She threw her brother under the bus for her own personal gain. I was not satisfied with that ending. Speaking of manipulative people, Bran being king... smh. All this stems from bad writing and a desire to rush the ending.
Her burning the city could have been done better. What if she had a line after Jamie had shown up about wanting revenge of Cerci and everyone else in Kings Landing who refused to come north and join in the battle. This threat to even the common folk of King's Landing is what makes Varry's worried. He approached Tyrion who claims he can talk Danni out of burning the city. Sansa reveals that there Jon is the true Targaryen heir now Varry's has a new person to back. He approaches Tyrion for support and uses the speech about how she had been cheered when using fire and blood against evil folks and now thinks she can do no wrong. This better setts up for her burning the city, even after they have surrendered.
Colin Luk Of course Daenerys was never letting go of the North! She literally from the get go told Jon to bend the knee. He agreed and in exchange for that she fought against the Night King. Sansa and the entire North didn’t stand a chance without Daenerys and her armies. Sansa was a traitor, Littlefinger 2.0!
@@MargieMedina Everyone has their own motivations which sometimes they can't let go. Cersei wouldn't aid in the Long Night because doing so would weaken her chances at retaining the Iron Throne. Sansa wants the North independent and doesn't trust Daenerys given the Stark family history with the Mad King.
It's so wild when you re-watch Thrones Dany later on in the series acts JUST like her brother did in season 1. Everything is hers or his BY RIGHT. Power corrupted her, she always failed at the political game, her selfish wants were always HER wants, not the people she was "saving". Heres something people don't talk about...when Dany saves someone she moves on to the next group to "liberate" and completely abandons the previous group she cared so much about until finally she dies before she gets what she always claimed was her "right", the iron throne. Such a fulfilling charecter arc. This story is about how power can truly corrupt humanity (as this vid explains). The show writers knew exactly what the end goal was with her charecter and in my honest opinion, the arc was completely in charecter and natural. Hate all ya want, I loved how Shakespearen the series was.
Yes, finally! I never understood how no one ever brought up the fact, that she abandoned the people she „liberated“ when it didn’t interest her anymore. Also what bothered me is that Daenerys always sentenced to death, giving no second chances. For someone who wanted to be seen as a savior, she always went for the extremes. But I agree that it was rushed. George R.R. Martin asked for 10 season (it would end in the same way), to give more insight. But Daenerys story was bound to go downfall. One person can not build an Utopia, an imaginary world when everyone is happy, thanks to one him/her/them. Many with such dreams, and wish to do good and bring justice, ended up as the world‘s worst dictators.
I just noticed in season 3 episode 10 right before the newly freed slaves came out she said to Jorah "I guess they didn't want to be conquered" jorah replied "not conquered, liberated."
Yeah. She was so heartless that she locked up her dragons when they killed a child. Lots of quotes are missing from this explanation, but because those quotes and actions would call the ending into question, they are omitted.
Its explained in the books. The girl symbolizes the consequence of using her dragons, which she initially does not want hence why she locks them up. At the end, she forgets the childs name to embrace fire and blood.
No one said she was evil. People are not all good or all bad. That’s what makes us human. I think she was a good person but because of circumstances and the corrupting nature of complete power, even the best of us can fall.
“Why so many women are depicted going mad”?...that’s what we do with every bad male ruler in a mythical setting when we are describing a tyrant. Cmon, the archetype of the mad queen or the tyrant king is thousands of years old.
As much as I love Daenary's story I never really thought of her as the future Queen of the seven kingdoms she was too queenly from the start till the end. It will seem too obvious and too predictable if she ended up being the winner. Still I hate Tyrion. Her downfall began the moment she accepted Tyrion. He was and always has been loyal to his family. A hypocrite who will kill millions of people for his family and then end up feeling bad when it's his turn to attack them. Jon was a big disappointment. I thought he had learn a lot from his journey but then he stayed the same. Never having his own decision when it's his turn to decide on what he should really do. He ended up asking if what he did was right and said that he didn't feel that what he did was right but still he did it. Cersei should've faced a much painful death than what she received. She is the true mad queen. Yet they made her ending look soooo "romantic" being with Jaime till the end. Whatever happened to Jaime's feelings for Brianth? He just played with her heart.
Jon is not a disappointment. He’s the one character that stayed true to his morals. He never lost his moral compass even after he died. He always tried to do the right thing. He’s the true hero of the story and like great heroes, especially from the western genre or Moses, they save the town only to be expelled. I think he’s the greatest character of all. :)
@@superstrat5826 stop repeating that same tired old line, parrot. They destroyed the characters with this storyline. That ending would have been trash, regardless. Arya killing night king? Bran becoming king? Dany turning evil? Sansa becoming queen in the north? Its all shit and pointless.
@@jdogsful Add in Jon's parentage. The many talks about marriage between Jon and Daenerys since the last episode of season 7. Daenerys ability to be pregnant and her line of succession that has been talked about during the second half of season 7. The offscreen discussion between Tyrion and Cersei after he founds out that she is pregnant. All pointless. Jon's character and parentage are plot devices for the mad queen plot. Add in Missandei having no interaction with Dany who has talked plenty of times in private since season 3, so that they make Dany somehow isolated and used as a plot device for the mad queen plot this season. Also Davos, Jon's advisor, gives zero advice to Jon this season. We don't know how Jon feels about his parentage, same for his sisters. The new system of governance that they put in place does not end anything. Bran has no armies and no actual power. He is term limited. When the Ironborn rebel or raid, what can Bran do? When Bronn inevitably tries to take over Riverrun because Edmure is a bitch, what can Bran do? When Dorne decides to not pay taxes and becomes independant, what can Bran do? The lords of Westeros are not going to stop scheming because there is an omniscient cripple (who most of them had never met) sitting on the throne. Even worse, they created a system where any Lord can be elevated to King by playing the game of thrones well. Westeros could become even more political as players attempt to be the next person chosen for the throne. They just created possibly the worst system of governance imaginable for Westeros. They made a bigger and worse wheel than what they started out with. Guarantees civil wars for generations to come.
"Daenerys' endpoint sadly take away from our world the unequivocally empowering symbol of the strong woman who emerge from victimhood" THIS. This is why I disliked what happened, a lot. She was becoming an icon.
Very good analysis. I always thought that Daenerys would end like this, considering how she acted since season 2, but actually I mostly saw her "Targaeryen entitlement". Thanks for extending my view on her character 👌
There’s a story about Azor Azai, the Prince Who was Promised. He unleashed the power of his sword, Lightbringer and saved the world from the darkness, by killing his loving wife with the said sword. Jon, the so-called Savior, saves the world, by killing Daenerys. He doesn’t just fulfill the prophecy, he lives the story. The fact that it happened again seems to say that the old world always sneaks into the new world, despite what we do.
Here's the thing tho. Feudalism was historically ended through absolutist monarchies bringing the militarized nobility to heel by force and slowly building the structure of modern nations. France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Russia, even Japan. They were all were united militarily under one powerful ruler. Or at least a centralized government focused around the ruler. England's Parliament was one of the very few exceptions, and that was only because power was slowly tranferred from the landowning nobles to the rich merchants, bankers and eventually industrialists. Tyrion, with his genius plan, just created an even looser system than before. The throne is once again going to be the centrepiece of conflict between the Great Lords, with them constantly jockeying for position with each other every time a ruler looks like he'll die. There will be many, MANY more assassinations and wars in the future of the Seven Kingdoms. Oh, and seccession movements as well, since apparently the North has been allowed to split off and become an independent kingdom simply because the ruler happens to be sister to the king. Well done Tyrion. That's a lot of extra suffering you managed to bring about. Face it. The Dragon Queen's rule was the only hope for the Seven Kingdoms. A peaceful future died with her.
Tom J I also feel vindicated about saying there will be no democracy. Liberalism didn’t just appear one day, it was a philosophical, socio-political, and socio-economic revolution. The aristocrat’s reactions at the thought of letting people have a say was exactly what I expected at such suggestions. No way would they give up their privilege and power. Westeros isn’t developed enough for liberal democracies or republics. Not without a period of enlightened intellectual thought.
That's what happens when you break a wheel. The rest of the wagon collapses with it gone. And Daenerys (I can never call her Dany again) would have just been another terrible ruler in a land that had seen too many of them.
Oh! I just thought up another reason the show's ending had issues. The entire concept of magic was never fully developed in this show, at least not to my satisfaction. Dany has dragons, yet the people of Westeros doubt dragons exist, even though the rulers of Westeros have had [small] dragons for centuries. Melisandre used magic successfully for a time, until her magic became useless, because plot. The people of Westeros treat magic like something out of a fairy tale, but--we're talking literally two generations ago, here. Like, within some citizens' lifetime, there was a king on the Iron Throne who had dragons. There's an entire ancient palace built to hold dragons. There's magical fire that decides a major battle and kills off a bunch of important lords and ladies. So--how could anyone not understand that magic exists? How could anyone treat magic like something out of a fairy tale? And to the extent that Dany does herald the return of magic--isn't she right, to a certain degree? She's living out a fantasy land that no one else can even touch. She lived through being burned alive. That does make her some kind of saint/heroine/magical being, which does give her some sort of inherent right to authority, if not to rule. And what happens to magic, if Dany dies? Magic in fantasy in today's society has increasingly heralded an attempt to overturn class structures, or to keep benevolent class structures in place when the unworthy try to seize power for power's sake. Without magic, we've no hope of breaking the wheel.
Since the in proper GoT dimension bells don't mean surrender (season 2 proved this) season 8 arguably took place in a mirror dimension with different characters that looked similar and lands named the same but with different traditions. Daenerys (the actual one) may be alive and will in the proper GoT dimension.
Yeah, I realized that in hindsight Dany didnt really ever bat an eye at all the burn-the-world talk that the Dothraki went around saying, she was all for it.
Excellent analysis! Throughout the show, Dany's unwillingness to compromise and penchant for violence never sat right with me. She didn't feel like the altruistic monarch she believed she was.
She didn't have a penchant for violence that was unreasonable. She had a bit of provocative rhetoric and a slogan, but everything she actually did prior to zig-zag fire-sweeping the streets of KL was justified, especially considering the world she's in. She was largely unwilling to compromise, though.
Same here. Never really voted in her character especially for the throne, but it was one heck of a ride. I enjoyed how she overcame her obstacles in the first half of the series.. it wasn't much fun near the end though sadly
I really appreciate the quality of your analyses and the depth of thought that goes into your video studies here. And I will enthusiastically continue to subscribe. But I don't agree that any of Dany's previous actions or statements in any way foreshadows her destroying a whole city of common people (as opposed to repressive elites or enemy soldiers), nor that even having done that means she could become Hitler-like. Here is why: the Allies (FDR and Churchill) DID burn a whole city - Dresden, and Harry Truman burned two cities - Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Abraham Lincoln, in Danaerys-like rhetoric said in his second Inaugural address that "if every drop of blood spilled by the whip must be paid for by one drawn by the sword" then it would mean that the judgment of God was just and righteous, AND his army (under Sherman) burned Atlanta to the ground and then marched to the Sea burning all in its wake. Does any of that mean that any of those four men, all leaders of democratic countries and liberators all, one even of slaves, the others of enslaved nations, would have carried out the Holocaust? Or had events like the Nuremburg rallies? No. No. And THAT is WHY the writers HAD to make her irrationally and without reason attack the people of Kings Landing AFTER the surrender - had she done so during the battle, then Dany is no worse than our greatest heroes of the last 100 years in the US and UK. And there would be no more reason to think that action would mean a dictatorship would follow than one followed in the US or UK after the Civil War or after WWII. But ALL of her previous actions and statements - see the Allies call for "unconditional surrender" of the Nazis and Japan in WWII - do not prefigure becoming Hitler, anymore than Winston Churchill became Hitler after the War.
See here’s my hot take on this: I got what the ending was saying, I didn’t miss any of the symbolism etc but I do reject it outright and my disappointment remains. If dragons are wise enough to understand the corruptive power of the throne why then did Drogon burn all those people? What was the point of pointless canon fodder dialogue like Arya saying “I know a killer when I see one” after witnessing war crimes, slaughtering an entire family herself and basically everyone in the show being a murderer at this point anyway. Why did so many great characters with great potential to say and do amazing things fizzle our into Hollywood fluff that left millions of fans disillusioned and annoyed? Even the apologists who say “this was hinted all along!” Concede that it’s a a sloppy delivery. I’m on the side of the coin that’s outraged by the death of all the powerful women, by the notion that Dany didn’t actively try to curb her worst impulses with loyal advisors who were either killed or betrayed her for approximately no (or at least out of character) reasons. And culminating in deaths for characters that are not remotely memorable, special or iconic. Like you said a mad queen Dany isn’t a mad idea, but a pacifist Tyrion, a monosyllabic Jon who barely does anything, bitchy stark sisters who shut out someone helping, a basically static Cersei and a dragon queen who just gives a strange face and commits war crimes... that ain’t it.
1) Drogon was under the control of Dany while she was alive. 2) Arya's line is cringe, I'll give you that. 3) Everyone on the show murdered, but not for equally noxious reasons. There is a lot of nuance in this show. Dany murdered because she felt entitled to rule an entire continent by conquest and without any indigenous support. 4) Because GOT is the anti-narrative. Remember when Ned was gonna join the Night's Watch, Renly was gonna make an alliance with Rob, Rob was gonna march on Casterly rock, Oberyn was gonna find out who gave the order after beating the Mountain, Joffrey was just getting started on terrorizing Tyrion... GRRM in GOT fizzles out narratives ON PURPOSE. It's not an accident. That's because narratives are a form of propaganda and GRRM wanted to challenge these tropes. Dany's journey and narrative is just one giant propaganda reel, she even accumulates titles as she goes along in the fashion of Idi Amin. 5) Well, yes, many women do go crazy with power because it is evident they have a chip on their shoulder the size of Texas and also imagine male power as this delicious free buffet they can just stuff their face in without any consequence whatsoever. Then they get surprised when things don't work that way and cry sexism. The only time male power is ever valued or regarded to be a positive thing is when it's in the service of others. If Dany were a blonde dude a lot of eyebrows would have arisen much sooner at his (her) treatment of things. 6) Well, don't pacifists, handicapped and people who aren't verbose or self-aggrandizing or as Tyrion would say 'cripples, bastards and broken things'... don't they also deserve a place in the fantasy genre? It's the one story where those in the shadows emerged on top. If you want dashing King Aragorn types, you can find that just about anywhere else. 7) It's obvious the Stark sisters are 'bitchy' because Dany's help comes with some huge strings attached. And Cersei doesn't have much to do because being good at intrigue and being good at ruling are two drastically different things. 7) Dany's death in the throne room could very well be one of the most memorable in the history of television. Jon making the choice to stab Dany is the culmination of the entire show.
I don't know why to have so much hatred for the stark...they were the most who suffered without any ambition...and Arya takes revenge from the people who killed her family at a marriage..and danarys killed thousands of innocent people and children:(maybe it was written badly but please don't blame the starks
Decent points Connor. Season 8 was character breaking done in a nonsense way to try to excuse emotional scenes that had little logic to them-and potentially ignore the moral decay of those Starks that remained (untrustworthy Sansafinger and possible scheming mass murderer Bran). Serb, I think I've seen you before but in case I didn't on some of your points. Third point) season 7 shows there is clear indigenous support-Dorn, Yara Greyjoy's faction, and The Reach support Daenerys before she even arrives in Westeros. The North may be independent but at the start of season 7 Sansa points out to Jon that Cersei is their mortal enemy and will try to kill them sooner or later. 4) Crazy women (including queens) and dragons burning towns are long running tropes. Plus the whole women getting to powerful and needing to be killed by their man is arguably a trope. 5) I call bs. If Dany were a man that wouldn't make her fight against slavery any less of a positive thing. Ditto for expanding rights for common people (turning Meereen into a democracy was a major expansion of rights). 6) There were actual pacifists in Game of Thrones. They were killed when the Hound wasn't there. Bran arguably is not a pacifist. He is someone with magic powers that used those powers to arrange the mass murder of innocents in order to get 2 people with a better claim to the crown out of his way. 7) What strings? Daenerys in season 7 offered to help Jon for free against the Night King because she saw just how dangerous he and his undead were. Jon gave up his crown for her for free after this because he saw she was worthy. Sansafinger (or Cersei light) rather stupidly betrays Jon and Dany because she is petty. No Dany means Jon and this army of the North are outnumbered by Cersei's army and both Jon and Sansafinger are likely to end up dead-making Sansafinger rather stupid when it comes to diplomacy and strategy. 8) I think you made a mistake with your numbering there. But more important is that a problem with Jon stabbing Dany is both their characters have to be really messed with to make that scene happen-plus a number of logic flaws have to be crammed into the plot.
@@akshitasinha4594 Sansafinger was actually pretty ambitious. She wanted to be a queen since season 1 and even lied about not knowing what Joffery had done to Arya and her friend in her attempts to keep her chance at it. Plus Sansafinger betrays an oath she made to Jon in less that a day in order to undermine a Jon's girlfriend who just risked her life honoring promises she made to Jon. Sansafingers actions were uncalled for and show her to be totally untrustworthy. But Bran is arguably worse because he used Dany's grief as a window of opportunity to mentally break her and kill many innocent people just so he could grab a crown that should've been with Jon or Dany. And the way Bran used Jon's linage to mess up Jon and Dany's relationship and then kept it hidden when the council was picking who should be king or queen shows Bran was using Jon's linage as a tool and throwing it away when it wasn't useful to Bran himself any longer.
They kind of did when they said that the thoughts they mentioned in the "Inside the Episode" didn't make it to the screen. I think they just decided to focus more on the positive, what you can learn from the story if you try, which is very refreshing imo. While I agree that season 8 deserves criticism I really don't understand why people actively get so consumed in their hatred.
"A more enlightened form of government?" Yeah, if you consider putting a time bomb on the throne as "enlightened". Bran is essentially like putting a savant form of an oracle in charge. He can literally bend people's minds when he wargs them. You want that kind of a guy in charge? I don't think so. And who knows if it wasn't him that made Danaerys go mad? Then there's the nature of putting Sansa, a liar and a corruption in the North. Interesting they got rid of Jon by forcing him back beyond the wall and Arya sent off to who knows where Then sending the Unsullied off to Naath where they will most likely die by the poisonous butterflies. Bran is basically moving those pieces on the chess board while everyone else is playing checkers. The only hope I have is in my mind I play out that Drogon took Dany to Essos where Kinvara brought her back and after she recovers, she takes Drogon back to Westeros to beyond the wall and finds Jon and tells him what Bran did. She says to him Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor. “A dragon is not a slave.” Meaning: Neither one of them could be controlled because both she and Jon are dragons therefore cannot be enslaved, however, he did get inside her head to make her mad. I see them sending a raven to Sam telling him what Bran did and what must be done. They do depose Bran and retake The North after they find the Unsullied before they get to Naath, and what was left of the Dothraki. Oh, they also find a clutch of new dragons Drogon laid while in Old Valyria. So there's now, oh, about a dozen all ready to go with Drogon at the head. Next Jon and Dany mount Drogon and head South. Jon leaves the Wildlings in The North, but as always Tormund comes with him along with Ghost. They head to Winterfell and retake it from Sansa who because of the dragons gives up to Jon and Dany. Leaving a garrison there to make sure Sansa behaves, they head for King's Landing where they are able to combat Bran and retake the city and both Jon and Dany are crowned co-leaders. Therefore NO MORE FRIGGING STARKS.
The proble is the execution. Dany sacrificied her own army and claim to the throne to help fight against the dead 3 episodes ago. Im sorry, but a tyrant who burns innocent people doesnt risk to lose everything to save them all. She was cruel to her ennemies, yes. But so was everyone else. Jon executed a kid who was corruptrd by grown men. Arya fed frey his children. Everyone in power in got executed their ennemies and oftentimes are just as cruel. Danny turning full tyrant needed several seasons to fully flesh out. Even the mad king had years until he turned fully mad
I can't argue that the last season wasn't rushed because it absolutely was but she was talking about burning cities to the ground since almost the beginning of the show. Also it seemed clear to me she was developing a god complex from about season 3 or 4 on, clearly she could do no wrong for a while and everywhere she went she was the people's savior. She had never handled anybody questioning what she considered her birthright very well and she had known nothing but love from the people she thought she was helping until she got to westeros. I think once she saw how the people loved Jon snow more than her and for sure after she found out he had the birth right not her she made a decision to do what she did, let it be fear. I thought after she burned Kings landing she really liked it and decided to burn the whole world at that point. That's just my two cents. I'm really not surprised anything played out the way it did and I'm sure in the books her decent into madness will be much more articulated.
@@bigbrad6828 ah well yeah i agree. It made perfect sense for me that dany will turn out this way. But there was no instance where she used violence on innocent people before and suddenly she burns the whole city. I think danys turn to madness would have needed at least one more season to flesh out. Also show her inner struggle and the one of jon. I guess im just sad because a show that was once so chracater driven and had like one fight per season is now a carricature of all of this. Also i really hate how so many questions are left unanswered. And bran doesnt do anything with his abillities. I hope the books will explain most of my questions
He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee
That Was Awesome!! So much of season 7 and 8 seemed like fan-pleasing video-game-inspired storytelling; but the last episode told a terrific story, and your analysis clearly brings that out. You guys are so smart!
When you cry after hearing those couple of seconds of the rains of Castamere. That song only plays during times of great tragedy, and Jamie and Cersei’s bodies being found killed me, that song saved a rushed and arguably stupid death of Jamie the antihero, and Cersei our favourite villain.
First video I found not bitching about the ending, definitely not saying it was great, I didn't like a lot of it, but I feel there was very few analysis's that said anything that wasn't said before, thanks for this positive outlook
Same but it does add substance to the scene - at this point, Daenerys is barely surviving and her Khalasar is in few numbers. She is literally a girl with no firepower to back up her claims at this point in time. Loved how the cringe Jorah does fits so well.
The ending of game of thrones have left a dull feeling in me, it felt like I could never get over the disappointment, but this video gave me proper closure. Thank you.
Its interesting how everyone who liked he thought this was rushed or a surprise. Its says alot ,how people overlook red flags when it comes to someone they are attached too.. for years I picked out time after time that said whe is not what you think she is. This character was brilliantly written
Ny head cannon is that Drogon took Dany somewhere that turns her into a literal dragon. But other than that, Dany was always compassionate. She identified with the weak and oppressed. Her turn to a tyrant may have been arguably foreshadow, but it still comes out of left field. Other than that, she looked like a bride on her wedding day.
She burned a victim of genocide and gang rape to death but y'all forgot cos LOOK COOL DRAGONS. Please remember the Lazahreen were slaughtered because Dany asked her mass murdering husband for an iron chair.
Emily, you forgot that victim of gang rape killed Daenerys's unborn child. Plus don't use the look dragons excuse. People supported Daenerys because she freed slaves and tried to make life better for people.
GRRM never said that asoiaf was Jon and Daenerys’s story, that was D&D. GRRM himself has said that Jon and Dany make up about 5% of the story, not bc of their lack of importance but because so many other factors contribute to the story as well. Don’t misquote
You are mistaken, on several counts. *Late during the airing of season 7, director Alan Taylor told the media that George R. R. Martin told him back in the first season that the story was about Jon and Dany coming together.* Taylor was surprised, even shocked. It was only late in season 7, when Jon had bent the knee to Daenerys and a romance between them seemed inevitable, that Taylor felt free to acknowledge Martin's early reveal. “When we were shooting Season 1 and no one had seen the show yet, we were in Malta. Back then, there was not a lot of secrecy because nobody was paying attention, and George R.R. Martin came to visit and he was being quite open about his plans,” Taylor told the New York Times. “He said something: That it really is all about Dany and Jon. I was surprised because at the time, you know, I thought, well Robb Stark’s going to be king next, probably,” he continued. “And who knows where this story’s going? But it was absolutely clear to him that within this sprawling scale the whole story was coming down to this partnership.” The specific quote above is from Jennifer Calfas's online Aug. 22, 2017 article for TIME, "What George R.R. Martin Told a Game of Thrones Director About Jon Snow and Daenerys Way Back in Season 1," putting the TIME article a few days after the airing of the Taylor-directed "Beyond the Wall." Essentially the same report from Taylor was reported in *many* media outlets toward the end of the seventh season; I don't know what the original media source was, or whether Taylor told the story to multiple media contacts. Further comments from Taylor confirmed that a romantic/sexual relationship between Jon and Dany was looming; it was argued among the fandom in the wake of his revelation whether the "partnership" planned by GRRM for the books was intended to be a romantic one or a purely political alliance.
I just do not understand some people here .. unhappy because Daenerys turned out to be emotionaly unfit, crazy, a she Hitler in just one episode.. this was the show called "game of thrones", fits perfectly..
Daenerys should've snapped out of her madness, realized what she'd done, and either killed herself or tried to kill herself out of guilt, instead of being killed by Jon as the villian the throne made her
She left Slaver's Bay/Bay of Dragon's under the control of her then lover Daario Naharis. They could have had her realize her fawley leave the Seven Kingdoms under the control of her present lover Jon and sailed off to the next realm in need of liberation, but that is not the happy ending Martin wanted.
But is more realist for this ending. Reality of live and tirants is like this. The most dangerous people are the ones who thinks their atrosities are for the better good.
She would never that immediately. She was never taught to confer sensitivity to the pains of those who're not monarchs or rulers. She was spoiled from childhood.
I really always thought that Danny was 100% arrogant by how she always said she was the rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms because of who her father was. She said it was her birthright. But obviously, just being born, isn’t a reason for someone to rule. I also thought it was ironic that she “freed the armies and the slaves” only to demand them fighting for her to the death. She was the definition of an arrogant entitled tyrant. lOL
GREAT video! And good job pronouncing "benevolent" lol...you saw the bloopers, right? Where Peter Dinklage tries and tries to say benevolent but keeps messing up? Lmao. I love Peter (and Tyrion)! And I love your videos. Very thorough, enough clips and details from the show (not just one of y'all sitting in front of a camera performing a monologue) and the narrator has a very pleasant timbre. Or a very serious one, when appropriate. Good job with your editing, too. Overall 👍 xoxo
This makes me see the last season had so much more potential... 😔 if only the writers had used more episodes to portray the character change in Daenerys
Thanks for doing this video. You have made a video of what I have been trying to convey to other fans who were disappointed by the ending or thought it came out of left field.
The downfall of a visionary is a tragically beautiful story, one which should've been properly implemented in the show. My main issue with the finale isn't the ending itself, but how the ending was written. It was like D&D expected the foreshadowing and shock value to compensate for a lack of good writing. Danaerys' descent into madness shouldn't have been shown just by an angry look on her face.
You affirm my love for this Story and the for this Show! I loved the Season Finale!! Your breakdowns & Analysis make me look forward to re-watching the entire Season even more each time with a different perspective on some of my favourite characters. Keep up the great work !!
It is a complete failure of humanity that this channel isn't getting 1 million+ views. They do the best work of any channel, anywhere, across all time!
And again, I disagree. Maybe for those that already saw this coming or knew the extent of her power, this felt like a "FINALLY" moment. It extended too long for us. Again, I say this as a non-Dany fan (never was, never will be).
I greatly appreciate that you guys don't really make videos grading things as good or bad (in terms of quality), but instead focus on specific thematic analyses on specific aspects of a story. Hearing that take is more interesting to me than the stockpile of "why this sucks" videos that youtube keeps recommending to me.
Great content. I would like your take on a couple questions: (1) Many cited Tyrion's many mistakes. What were those mistakes? Negotiating with the Masters when Dany's whereabouts was unknown and advising against actions that would led to "Queen of the Ashes" in S7 were far sighted strategies based on available information and resources. Yes, Jamie did saw thru that one. But Tyrion's was a "balanced" alternative to burn them all. I also wonder how many people in Westeros would consider Jon's action as regicide instead of justice? How many other than those she brought from Esso truly recognized Dany's claim?
Can y'all please do a video about Dany and white feminism? Particularly what she did to Mirri Maz Durr who by all accounts should have been a hero to us, except people were distracted by cgi dragons. But also all the shady stuff she's been doing "liberating" slavers bay. And maybe a bit about George's pacifism, anti-war politics and critiques of western imperialism and American exceptionalism. Thanks.
I would've been happy with the development if they actually showed and not told us for a few episodes instead of having her fine one episode and the next going "No TV, no beer makes Danaerys something something"
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Now do Lion King analysis please
One could say it was not the death of the dream but rather the death of a dreamer. Sometimes the dream outlives the dreamer........
The take There is a new TV show you might like 'Years and Years'
The Take Yeah if you are doing the whole ring allegory, wouldn't Frodo have then have turned out to be the principal villain??
I would love to see you guys do an analysis of the following: Good Girls (season 1&2), The Good Place (seasons 1-3), the Marvelous Miss Maisel (seasons 1-2), the movie Us by Jordan Peele, Fullmetal Alchemist(:Brotherhood), and Akira (as they’re about to do a live action remake). Though, honestly, I think you’d both do an amazing job analyzing fascism in media in the 2010’s, based on what I saw of your analysis in this video, and in that case there’s a whole variety of things to pick from. I think it’s a bit unsettling how prominent it is in global media franchises, and not always explicitly. You have obvious ones like “the man in the high castle” (which, being Jewish, I couldn’t even get through a few episodes) or anime phenoms like “attack on titan” (which has unfortunate racial implications as well) that are more subtle in their presentation.
Jon Snow is just learning grammar this season.
"She is my Queen, She is your Queen, She is our Queen".
Perhaps, the show runners robbed him of his leadership qualities for "our queen"
Ahm no a Staaahk
Leave him alone he was D whipped man.
He had Dany on the brain for a time the loins too.
But he sobered up quick when Tyrion told him about his two sisters being threatened.
Dany wasn't going to let them live she brought that out in her victory speech.
Jon misguided love for Dany along with his misplaced loyalty didn't flinch, but Jon is a man of honor the hero of this story he had to bring the villain down by any means necessary, he tried to reason with her attempting to find any traces of the woman he fell in love with, when all else subsequently failed he had no other choice but to end her life tragic though necessary.
The way his character degraded this season was almost as baffling as Daenerys’ character assassination.
He knows nothing.
Will be waiting for part 2.
This analysis feels more scripted and carefully written than the actual script of season 8 itself.
Winston Tj they deadass give too much credit to the writing when analyzing this stinking shitpile of a season
@@thehardesthitting145lb3 yeah pretty much lol
That's because Season 8 is fine on a thematic level. It's the execution that's rushed and garbage.
Ok guy actually, the credit goes to the groundwork laid in past seasons... As well as probably the books. It's fairly easy to understand why things would end this way all along. But the last season ruined all that work by thinking it was enough. Though there were glimpses of madness in Dany all along, she never directly kills innocent people because of it. And we are given significant proof that she would be against doing that. So to just flip that switch without showing us what changes she had to go through to get to that point (even after they surrender) ... It's just real fucking lazy.
@@flockinify this.
The closest thing to Dany's story is Alexander the Great.
Told since childhood that he was destined to be the ruler of all Greeks. Still grew anxious as to whether his siblings would try to take his birthright. As an adult led from the front and exposed himself to very great danger. Told by the people he conquered that he was a god, he came to believe it. Burned a great foreign city (Persopolis) in an act of drunken madness. Killed his best friend similarly (mean drunk!). Rumored to be poisoned by his own men who were tired of a decade of non-stop conquering. Punished those same men by going back home through the worse possible route.
The pithiest way of summarizing Dany's story is the most famous, "Absolute power corrupts absolutely". Twenty-five hundred years ago, Socrates told the story of the "Ring of Gyges", which became Wagner's "Ring of the Nibelung", which became Tolkien's "Ring of Power", which became Martin's "Iron Throne".
By the way, Dany's last outfit was definitely designed by the Westerosi Hugo Boss.
One of the 20th century's greatest Alexander scholars wrote an article on this, I believe in 1965. You should check out Ernst Badian's 'Alexander the Great and the loneliness of power'. It's more on the internal power struggle between Alexander and his own officer corps/nobility, and reframe a lot of his actions within this context. Ex: the different plots against his life are in reality excuses to purge the old traditionalists from command, and replace them with his own inner circle.
@@Tobbhen This is why I read comments.
Now That's a comment, full of historical knowledge and thought-provoking analysis!! Truly Dany's appearance (the outfit, the huge Targaryen Banner, the militaristic setting) was very Hitlerersque! You should have much more likes :)
@@Sophia.Stark17
Thanks.
It was Albert Speer who set up the look of the Nuremberg Rallies, and it was Leni Riefenstahl who used those settings to film, perhaps the most famous propaganda film of all time, "Triumph of the Will". Both Speer's and Leni Riefenstahl's influence are very visible in this episode.
@@RayeGunn
Robespierre is certainly the modern prototype of the intellectual who is 100% sure that he knows what's best for the masses. So sure , in fact, that he will order the imprisonment and the deaths of thousands. Because (paraphrasing), "if they are against my ideas, they must evil". The ill-defined but all encompassing term, "enemies of the revolution" used by Lenin, Mao, Castro and, now, Chavez and Maduro, started with him.
Nietzsche knew the history of revolutions and warned against, becoming the monster you seek to fight.
Notice that in The US, the Revolution was never the thing to protect and defend. It was and is, The Constitution; a set of laws on how to run a country with the consent of the governed, not by an all knowing intellectual.
And like... the last season made so many missteps, but can we give Emilia Clarke the respect she deserves for absolutely SELLING that look at 4:00
Well she had to fit around a season of character development into that look, so she put some effort.
I agree. Final season was a mess, but DAMN those actors worked hard with what they had. They did everything they could to sell that shit even though they KNEW it was terrible.
@@LordofFullmetal Totally, I don’t blame any of the actors for the horrible writing. They all did a phenomenal job with what they had
'You can die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.'
The Dark Knight (2008)
Harvey Dent
@@Ismail-kv3ex 👍.
Andrew Forte fr!
GREAT!
@@Ismail-kv3ex
Yup 😌🌺🦄
I’m glad you took the time to talk about how Dany was a victim of her own making, not because of her heritage. So many people online are blaming Dany’s death on her “Targaryen madness” and that she was going to die as a result of it. The truth is, Daenerys has always been to me a stable character, and any ruthlessness and rage she displayed was not because of her blood, but because of her passion and ambition to make the world a better place according to her. She undid herself and her obsession with her apparent destiny was what led to her death, not because her father was mentally unstable. Clearly the people who think this have not been paying close attention to the details in the story and Daenerys’ character.
Why did she destroy the city her family built and kill everyone? I agree that's not necessarily madness. It is, however, irrational and stupid. Dany was never either one of those things. Too in love with her own fabulousness yes but that's not the same thing.
That's how I always saw it. Her arrogance was her downfall. She has this belief that she knows better, that she IS better, we see it time and time again in the way she deals with other people. And as Tyrion says, this creates a snowball effect over time that eventually makes her believe that EVERYTHING she does is perfect and just.
@@Himaryous It is very rational:
1) KL is also the city that exiled her family and supported the usurper, a city that has a bad reputation to pretty much everyone outside it ('You know why I came to this sh*thole of a city? To kill you.'), and is largely regarded as the ultimate den of corruption and intrigue. Can you really build a new world with such a vile place as its center? Even worse, these bastards instead of fighting Cersei FLOCK TO HER FOR PROTECTION! You think Dany is the kind of gal who'll forgive that sh*t?
2) Also, let's not forget, Dany is just one dragon-busting-crossbow away from having NOTHING. How long before someone else perceives her mercy as a weakness and starts giving her attitude? How long before someone tries to pull the same trick Euron pulled? She is in a position where she absolutely needs to send a strong message for no one to ever f*** with her again.
Or perhaps people who think Jerkinoff and Wuss were adapting the story with all that you just projected into it without discussing any of the OTHER source material they started plagiarizing/paraphrasing in the most egregiously thin ways the further out on that ledge without Martin they got need to grab a Western Civ/World History 101 book, a freshman literature text, and the commentary from Jerkinoff and Wuss. Suddenly you'll realize that they actually WERE ripping off "madness" in a very literal way, from Cato the Elder getting angry as he looked over defeated Carthage from the walls, growing more and more ticked off about the youth he spent at war to defeat the former #1 power of the ancient world to put Rome on top despite Carthage's surrender, deciding to use his rage as the fire to convince other Romans to give up on mercy and build a coalition that would agree to put the city to the torch...to ripping off the French Revolution's speeches on liberty, fraternity, equality, and tyranny as Robespierre took them right over the edge into the madness of the Terror ("All right, let it be fear," as Dany's hair gets all unkempt and overnight she is suddenly even looking like the portraits of wild-haired and wild-eyed Robespierre)...and on and on it goes. They just grabbed some relevant speeches from the events Martin does do a great job at deconstructing, broke out a thesaurus, threw together some synonyms and a little rubber glue to produce a script with enough crap stuck in there that with Sapochnik's big combat spectacles that they thought they could just make it out safely without anyone realizing what screw ups they were without nearly the layers you think you were seeing on that screen! Seriously, if my students turned in papers to me that so obviously ripped off things without documentation and just used thinly veiled synonyms in such ridiculous way, I'd be really torn between wanting them to have to start the class all over again and see if they could actually learn something with a second run through and wanting to kick them out of my class and send that mess over to the academic ethics board!
@@SerbAtheist Then again, if you're just ONE dragon-busting crossbow away from having NOTHING, you might want to think about a new plan besides relying on the ONE dragon to help you conquer the world and keep all rebellions suppressed.
"It's that ultimately this strongest and best of people couldn't withstand the temptations of ultimate power".
And that my friends, is the fundamental theme of Game of Thrones; "There are no good kings".
I just wish they had at the very least another full season to flesh this out. We saw "The Mad Queen" coming. We just wish the "madness" appeared more earned than it did.
Yup.... and then we end the show with another king. Elected, albeit, by noble landlords, but nothing else has really changed. Still has absolute power.
Well, not quite. One could say that a good king is a wise king, wise enough to find himself advisors who can keep him in place while he keeps them.
like ying and yang, always keeping each other in balance and peace.
@@ReporterRed he's gonna get usurped in like a week 😂😂😂
Perhaps not in the show. But in the books, Jaehaerys 1 and Daeron 2 were beloved by the smallfolk and Lords alike.
@@ReporterRed Yes and no. He does have absolute power but remember, he tells Tyrion that he doesn't really 'want' things anymore. I think his status as Three Eyed Raven will help keep him on the straight and narrow. And after he's dead the next ruler will be elected rather than born into it. So I think they have a much better chance now.
I will start by saying that I loved the Mad Queen twist, I think that it definitely has Martin's influence as a plot point and we will witness it in the books as well! *BUT* : it was rushed, we did not see it unfolding gradually and we were also robbed of the chance to feel how tragic a character was Daenerys!! Her death should be lyrical, as a punishment for the hubris she commited, while believing she was doing the right thing! The moment was so anticlimactic, I felt nothing.
Btw, Kudos to Emilia, that one look in "The Bells" spoke volumes, imagine what she would do with a full Mad Queen script in her hands.
yes, exactly.
It's strange how I know exactly what 'look' of Dany's you're talking about just by mentioning the episode name because that's how well played out it was
@@mogumogu7774 Exactly, it was simply That good :)
I can't argue with anyone who complained about Dany's descent into evil and madness, but the end results are all the same acceptable it was in the cards all along, how they got there fell on the writers who made do with what they had, but this makes Dany one of the greatest villains/victims of all time in my opinion.
@RheyaRu!z It was inevitable the signs were always there, don't get it twisted Dany was inherently good, she did what she could with what she had to make the world a better place, but in the back of our minds despite the fact, we saw that potentially at any given moment Dany could turn heel which she ultimately did, the best villains are usually the heroes of their own stories.
It's a shame these ideas were so poorly translated to the screen.
It's a shame that people is full of hysteria, if she could see the message anyone can.
I agree completely Miguel. There were various points throughout season 8 where I was thinking "this scene isn't having the emotional impact it should, because we were in such a rush to get here." The message may have still been there, but it certainly wasn't told as powerfully as it could have been.
I agree with you U X. People are mad because their blonde goddess was anything but. I binged watched the show from season 1 to 7, two years ago and even then, I could see that she was on the path of becoming an ENTITLED tyrant. My feelings were confirmed when she killed Samwell's Father and Brother. Who cares if his father was a dick? That was still HIS FAMILY. And she burned them AFTER THEY SURRENDERED... Just like she did in The Bells. When Jon Snow told her about the children and she tried to blame it on Cersei... That was bullshit. THE BELLS WERE RUNG... Making Cersei's rule at an end. When she burned the city she was supposed to save... That was all ON HER. Especially since Missandre GAVE DAENY THE DRAGON'S 🐉CODE WORD TO BURN 🔥 THE CITY BEFORE SHE WAS EXECUTED!!! But no. People don't want to see that. They want their cute blonde goddess.
@@robynsegg Yes, and Arya joined a death-worshipping cult, cooked human beings and fed them to their father, poisoned other human beings who may not have all been involved in her family's death without any due trial. Sansa fed a human being to his dogs and watched with pleasure as he was dying. Jon Snow cut off the head of a guy who already agreed to obeying him and hung a child. Are they all deranged? Taken (intentionally) out of context all the characters are horrible people. As for the writers whose sole responsibility this debacle is, when I see the bolts going through ship hulls like that... cannons can't do that, only rail guns, a 21st century technology still in its infancy. Do they have any idea how thick a ship's hull was? Naval cannons had to come into very close range to... maybe make a hole in the hull... maybe, if its lucky. The characters and everything became pawns to the writers to hurry the f**k out of the show.
When the writers tell me it's the end of the Dothraki, but then I see them respawned like in video games. When they tell me that Daenerys, after having repeatedly spoken about Euron, including in the same episode, "kind of forgot" about him, then it's clear to me that the writers are insulting me (feels like gaslighting) and there is nothing deeper to it. Even worse, they tell me the best leader is the one who doesn't want the job. Please go to a job interview in real life and tell them you don't want the job, see if they hire you. Because the best leaders DO want to lead. What special merits did Bran have? What exactly did he contribute to defeating the Night King to be elected as king? Stories? :)))))))
They tell me Tyrion's punishment for treason is becoming the second most powerful person in the country that he betrayed. I don't recall VP Benedict Arnold. There was no deeper message to this season and season 7 to be completely honest. What made Game of Thrones a great show was the realism and the ambiguity they threw to the side in favour of pretty frames and shots and Disney logic (stories... season 2 Tyrion would slap season 8 Tyrion like Joffrey for talking like some Disney character). So all the things Daenerys did weren't "on her" as a natural progression of the character, it was on the writers who wanted to end the show quickly and move on.
@@octavianpopescu4776 First of all, you went by way of China to make your point... A good chunk of what you wrote could have been edited. 2nd, yes all of those people did truly horrible things, but the difference in your examples is that with the exception of Jon Snow and the Knight Watch, they were not LEADERS. Arya went overboard on her vengeance and it was truly turning her into a piece of shit... To the point where she threatened her own sister with death. And yet The Hound supposedly saves her at the end. As for Sansa, really tho? Even I can understand why she did that. Ramsey raped her and forced Theron to WATCH HER be raped who he physically and mentally abused the poor kid AND cut off his dick. He killed his family including his newborn brother. He killed Ricken for fun. And skinned countless people alive including an elderly woman, to the point where the activity is placed on his sigle. Not to mention starving his own dogs. All Sansa did was lock his ass in. Jon Snow did his deeds because those treasonous fools killed him, even tho he was brought back to life. And even he had REMORSE for hanging the kid. Dany had NONE OF THAT. The people she killed was ORDINARY PEOPLE. And again, she made her choice AFTER THE PEOPLE SURRENDERED BY DEMANDING CERSEI TO RING THE BELLS, which she eventually did. Dany destroyed the town she was supposed to save. And she would have done the same to Winterfell and everywhere else if she had the chance. This was how the writers wrote it because Cesrei and Dany were two sides of the same coin. But I'm guessing your too enraptured by Dany to see this. The show is over, Grover. And Dany is dead. Get over it.
Basically seasons 7 and 8 should have been 10 episodes long
They still had longer episodes though.
More episodes for them to screw up
More like there should have been more seasons
80 episodes would have been enough. Season 7 and 8 were rushed.
Grrm said_ 13 seasons
Moral of the story-when you fight against something, watch out since you may become what you fight against.
Nietzsche.
Be careful when you stare too long into darkness, the darkness stares back at you.
It's not "darkness". It's the *abyss*
"Battle not with monsters lest ye become a monster
And always remember - when you gaze into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"
The Iron Throne is here the abyss. It is Will to Power twisted into its most ugly, cruel, violent form. It is all the cruelties that were needed to make the animal "man" into a regular, orderly, faithful creature who may then be *ruled*
It is the history of "civilization" embodied as a throne.
It is History itself, written by the rulers.
But this is only *one* history, and there would be others. After all, the moral arc of the universe (World Reason) is long...
@@mattgilbert7347 I was paraphrasing, you quote nazi! :) The "darkness" is the iron throne in this case. Absolute power in the form of a razor sharp chair.
The closer Dany gets to it and the more selfish/ambitious she is, the darker her costume is. When she is acting selflessly, her costume is a light/pale colour. Its a small detail but that was my context.
@@jenk289 glad that someone took notice too 👍😁.
It really bothers me that Dany in episode 6 was so delusional about what she'd done. She legitimately tried to argue she only killed innocents that Cersei used as shields. Dany turning into a tyrant would have been a fantastic end to her arc, if it hadn't been so rushed, but I can't accept her brain falling out.
You could argue that Missandei's death blinded her judgement and being so close to getting the iron throne just made her not care anymore. There was a phrase relating to power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
You know she has the near same situation as Joffrey though in terms of genetics right? Which, imo is sort of insensitive of George, but there is historical precedent of rulers born of heavy incest would sometimes "go mad" after a serious loss and extensive grief, like the death of a loved one. Dany's parents weren't twins thankfully but they were siblings. This means she shares 75% of her DNA with her brother AND her father. Who were, objectively both abusive and struggling with mental issues, likely early onset Alzheimer's. It's a real case of "reality is unrealistic" because, like life, sometimes there isn't a neat or clear "break," people just deteriorate in ways we don't ever fully understand. We don't usually see it coming until it's too late.
I think your upset that Dany for all her good intentions, they say 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' strung you along all this time as self-made liberator, and self professed savior of the masses, with divine power destined for greatness, which is a two-way street the bottom suddenly fell out, this is Game of Thrones there's no happily ever afters, to quote Ramsey Bolton 'if you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.'
I agree it was rushed, but imo the delusional part was correct. Tons of imperial regimes use the excuse that innocents were human shields to justify civilian casualties. It’s pretty much America’s go to excuse for drone wars and military strikes that lead to innocents dying, and what is a dragon but a magic drone?
MorninStar yeah, except for Stannis, you saw how the choices he made ended him up with killing his daughter and brother. You saw that even though he loved his daughter, he clearly had enough disdain for her that he would leave her locked up underground. So the leap didn't feel that far.
For Dany, it was like they tried to jump from one end of a football field to another. When she was looking disheveled, her best friend just died, of course, she is going to mourn. That in no way signals that she has gone mad and is willing to kill innocent people who weren't even there when missandei died.
Though her concern for people was declining, those people she killed were not innocent in her eyes. Even Jon and Ned killed people who disobeyed them, and they were not mad rulers.
But she knew till the very end that she had killed innocent people because she said as much when she tried to justify it using Cersei as her scapegoat. There was never any clear change in her that would make this believable.
@Emily Amaro People going mad is NEVER sudden. It's just that we don't see the things their mind had to go through to get to the breaking point. The point of storytelling is that we get to see that.
We saw glimpses of what she was capable of, but there was really no proof she would ever cross that line.
Had they not wrung the bells... All the way, I could have seen her making that choice. There was significant lead up to that. Because using her own logic, they would have disobeyed her by not surrendering.
Really wish the show had done more to *actually* earn this turn. The way it plays now it’s shoddy, if not morally suspect.
They could have interspersed quick flashbacks to all she's endured with her sudden emotional change to better reveal the rage brewing inside her.
How is it morally suspect?
Because you didn't like it? Grow the fuck up
@@sergioivan ruthless with enemies doesnt equal burning innocent children! There wasnt enough time given to show the unravelling of her mental state! Now id like to hear an actual argument from u instead of slandering someone's opinion
Sergio Iván González relax.
You’re telling me it’s not the least but potentially dubious to have the show turn around and say “don’t cheer on someone who eviscerates objectively evil people like rapists, tyrants, and fucking slave owners because then you’re just creating a worse evil”? That’s incredibly iffy messaging.
@@ThePonderer Yeah, you got it exactly. Don't cheer for anyone's death, even those who deserve to die.
I never thought of Jon Snow being Frodo. That's interesting.
Me too i really thought it was arya for killing the night king but it was jon all along
This ending is probably what George RR Martin was planning, and it does make sense. It was just the pacing and built up to that ending from the show was bad, and that is why we are mad about it. However, based on this analysis everything do make sense! Can't wait to read the book when it come out though to see what it has planned all along
Season 7 was rushed, add those missing episodes to fill in travel, time jumps and magical transportation of armys.
Season 8 had the Night King and army, episode 3 was good, maybe great. BUT, it had plenty of flaws. Most of the problem is in what felt like an unresolved ending with lots of unanswered questions. This was supposed to be a Winter that lasted years and it barely lasted months. The Night King waited 1000 since his last attack and once the dragon melts a hole in the wall marchs straight to Winterfell? They could have used episodes one and two and a (third or fourth) to better build up the threat of the White Walkers. They showed the remains of House Umber how about showing some other houses forced to flee short on provisions as they are attacked. What if some small groups White Walkers did head south of Winterfell and decide to stay and wait for the Night King (they put all their eggs in one basket) They use this time to explain more of the Night Kings origin and motives - he is more than just a force of nature that wants to end the history of man. Maybe him and Bran have a mental confrontation - one where it is established that the Night King has a personal vendetta against the 3-eyed Raven and that is why he will do the act himself.
Then we are able to head into the final episodes without the preexisting aftertaste of disappointing storytelling hoping the finally will overwhelm us somehow.
The main reasons why season 8 was so terrible was because D&D told us instead of showed us "Danaerys has refused to eat", Show us! Time jumps, plot holes, lack of build up or not paying off on build up like the golden company. Plot convinieces are everywhere, respawning armies, poor tactical and political decisions and characters doing things they wouldn't normally do.
Tormund said he was going north of the wall, it took Jon 6 weeks to get to kings landing then he waited on Dragonstone, then they attacked and he was imprisoned for about 3 weeks, then went up to the wall which took a minimum of 6 weeks. Was Tormund waiting at Castle Black for 3 months?
@@SkaterBlades You've made a very good argument in my opinion.
Also, your first line... that is pretty illuminating when you think about it because the question becomes 'Was she NOT eating because of her recent emotional losses? Or was it because the one she TRUSTED with her food & drink was gone: Missandei? If it's the 'latter' has she been paranoid since some tried to poison her in Quarth (which would make sense) or was she paranoid since the Witch killed her family and progressively becoming more & more so over time? Reminding ourselves that BEFORE Jon came to Dragonstone, only the people who LOVED her was around her while after the victory over the Night King Jon noticed she wasn't eating or really drinking! Was that because of where she was? Totally understandable & smart or was it genuine paranoia? A short conversation between perhaps Greyworm and Missandei could cleared that up. Too lazy to do it.
Just proclaiming her MAD because she won't eat is ignorant (many commenters & reviewers have done that) but *if they had SHOWED us like you suggest,* we might have seen that she hasn't been eating 'properly' for a very long time and we know that the lack of a balanced diet weakens the body & soul over time... Would have been a 'measurable' variable that squarely introduced us to the idea that she ultimately had a 'breakdown' whether Emotional OR Mental.
I was a huge Dany fan and before this video I had a realy hard time accepting she would end up like this despite knowing Martin had probably planned this ending since the beginning.
For me it was not just the build up that we can all agree was horrible. It was also the fact that her ending in the show was (for her) purely bitter and no "good guy" death was ever like this before. Dany just like Stannis did not want the throne at all she just felt it was her duty/she was destined to. But all she ever wanted was to go home to bravos to the house with the red doors and a lemon tree and peace. She also had a soft spot for a familly. And so we have been watching this character grow, try to stay as sane and good as possible just to loose anyone she ever cared for and be killed by the last living person she loved?
This is very subjective but ending like that is realy disappointing and ruined this storyline for me. It just makes you ask yourself "What was the point of it then? She could have died at the very beginning and nothing would change"
And while the philosophy explanation in this video sounds quite good. It is still just a general phylosophy that does mean one has to go mad. And while it has been forshadowed a madness will become a strugle for her at some point she feels still very stable in both the books and episode 4 of season 8.
And while im sure george will make her ending sence and make it actually bittersween and not just bitter. The wounds were made and part of me just does not want to read her storyline anymore because of the show ending.
@@conniethesconnie I would say episode 3 was a great ending to the white walkers (although im still mad we did not see night king or any of his generals actually fight). Its very fitting in my opinion that the winter was stopped at winterfell that was also build by the same guy who did build the wall. The biggest problem was we did not have any episodes where white walkers would be recognized as a danger to the whole continent or they would do any damage but to destroy last heart. My opinion about the first half of season 8 is very unpopular but Id say those episodes we got were great. The problem is with those episodes that we did not get... Those that would setup their defeat better
I understood in the end that Dany’s arc was a tragedy about a good person that was corrupted and driven mad by the pursuit of power. I so wish that her turn to darkness was done better in the show, but at least I’ve got the books to look forward to!
0Paronomasia0 --Especially giving us a full 12 episodes.
when Dany says that she couldn't count to 20, it was foreshadowing the fact that HBO wanted to make 2 fulls seasons of 10 episodes each but D&D refused in order to move on to their Star Wars trilogy... (and I'm only half joking here. I think there is a good chance this is the actual subtext, as a stealth taunt to the audience)
Still there was no motivation for Daenerys to burn the city to the ground. That Cersei used the people as a weapon does not explain to kill everyone, because it did not help to disempower Cersei. The glance on the red keep implies to fly directly to the red keep and kill Cersei directly. Cersei was the one, who killed her friend, her dragon, who had, what she wanted. Still the writers described her aggression against the people as "to make this personal". That is no explanation, it does not even make sense. Daenerys cannot reign through fear after killing her subjects. She also did not make a "personal point" with it. Also the fascist images do not fit here, because fascists killed specific groups as scape goats, not everybody. Even if she is unjustly entitled, even if her old-testamentarian "an eye for an eye" moral code can be understood as a one-way-ticket to tyranny, her decision does not make sense. Her character collapsed into irrational madness and nothing of that was "foreshadowed".
This commentary is a masterpiece.
Well done my lady well done.
Now my watch ends.
Well not quite I'm looking forward to Bran, Arya, and Sansa.
I couldn't agree more.. A real masterpiece... Thank you..
They already did the video for Arya
@@luisab5726 Outstanding!👍
@@luisab5726 No, he means the ending of the show, where the Starks ended up.
It's bullshit.
"I know a killer when I see one" this Arya line is so funny, she's just literally wiped out a city and she's acting like this is some special insight her training has given her. People make fun of Jon's boring dialogue in this season but he was never the smartest, they never made him say something this dumb.
she was speaking in Jon's regard. Jon still thought there was a way to talk her down from what she had become. Arya's words was a warning that she would eventually turn on Jon if things were allowed to continue. She fought against the forces of the dead but yet still decided to destroy the city full of innocents, She already had it in her head to do so before Tyrion and Varys sway her by pointing out how people will view the actions and the consequences and even then she settles on making sure the people understood Cersei fucked them before Dany destroyed them all instead of doing what was right. Dany named her win conditions from the start, but she did not stay true to them.
This is what happens when you give stupid people subliminal messages to figure out on their own. The weak little brains just can't put the pieces together. Your comment is absolute proof that some people need everything explained to them like they're a 6 year old.
I usually love the analysis, but the selective quoting bothers me to a degree. We're supposed to believe that Missandei is a servant not an equal because Davos, who is Jon's servant after he was Stannis's servant, questions her agency.
Mad Dany says she has no doubts and no compunctions after seven seasons of Dany constantly seeking guidance and questioning herself.
I don't doubt that the writers have retroactively erased from their own memory Dany's sanity and mercy, but having Tyrion, who Dany stopped from selling Mereen back into slavery and who witnessed Dany ban fighting pits in disgust and who witnessed her spare the Great Master's soldiers became a mouthpiece for a story turn that was unjustified.
Edit:
Also showing a shot of Daenerys shouting "Where are my dragons!" After her surrogate children were stolen from her and claiming this is evidence of her being a tyrant is almost as manipulative as D&D saying her first sign of being cruel was her not crying when her abusive brother who threatened to kill her unborn child was killed.
The overarching theme of this season is that Dany can't be more kind than others because it makes her dangerously emotional, she can't care about family too much because it makes her dangerously emotional, and she can't have power because she'll eventually be dangerously emotional. But everyone else is allowed.
THIS.
THIS. SO MUCH
Pretty much THIS.
It's like Melisandre quoting herself wrong ("...and blue eyes") just to fit the situation. There is no hidden meaning in their writing. They just go along. They put in a additional child of Cersei just to retcon it with the prophecy. They forgot that Davos and Sam already knew about dragonglass when John asked where to find some. They let Dany ask who the lord of Storms End is and not a single lord can answer the question. As if Storms End is just a small castle with no strategic value. You know why? Because they completely forget about it! That's their level of competence. They forget what was said by whom.
They are not smart writers. And at this point I really doubt that they ever cared slightly about the story of the books.
There is a big difference between being a servant after a life of independence, making one's own choices and personality development, like Davos, and being a servant after being a slave all one's life. The sccene with GW, Missandrei and Tyrion just showed how much work the former two still had to do in just developing their personalities. It reminded me of an English teacher in North Korea, who had trouble explaining to their students how to write an essay because the concept of having one's own opinion and arguing it still seemed way too alien.
Excellent comment. Adding to your last note...
The double standards. The awful bloody 𝘥𝘰𝘶𝘣𝘭𝘦 𝘴𝘵𝘢𝘯𝘥𝘢𝘳𝘥𝘴.
First example, Sansa feeds her tormentor to his dogs. Second, Arya feeds a man his children, then uses his face to slaughter his house for vengeance. You know what those bits really were? Empowering feminist moments™!
Dany can't get away with crucifying the slave owners because 𝘮𝘢𝘺𝘣𝘦 some of them weren't okay with the mass child crucifixions... they were just okay with the 'owning slaves' part.
These double standards were at their absolute worst during these last few seasons. Foreshadowing doesn't mean shit if everyone's being held to different standards of acceptable behavior.
Sorry for the rant ;-)
I think Daenerys kind of forgot that people live in Kings Landing
She didn't forget. She just didn't care anymore.
@@dwnkaomwn3953 yeah in 2/73 ep she just didnt care
@@dwnkaomwn3953 The same woman who said we have mercy. And we will give mercy. Just didn't care anymore...👌
@@trigunfox2325 she only ever had mercy to those who worshipped her. Dany had a messiah complex about herself, where she believed that the people of the world should fight for her within an instant of her arrival. Because the people of King's Landing didn't overthrow Cersei for her (which led to the deaths of one of her dragons and Missandie), they were enemies to her. And we know how she treats enemies. To her, the civilians of Kings Landing were not innocents.
@@trigunfox2325 She was mad and drunk with power like her father(Aerys) and brother(Viseys) as a result of "Targaryen madness". Do you have a better explanation?
Your explanation is the only one I’m truly looking forward to after that ending
Fantastic explanation on why & how she justified her actions. I really love your point on Dany was the best of people, and power still corrupted her (although I don’t get why Jon is somehow the only one who can be close to it without being tempted, kinda defeats the point, but also why I am glad he didn’t end upon the throne). I also like that you highlighted that the way the murder was framed was...questionable.
I just still don’t understand why she decided to kill all those innocents in the first place, when the more logical and consistent thing to do would have been to burn the red keep itself, the symbol of all that was taken away + where Cersei was.
danny was not logical when it came to punish her enemies but before she had friends that could stop her from going to far, if jorah, missandei and barristan where alive that would not have happen
Why does the U.S. bomb non-combatants by the dozens to kill a few terrorists? Hollow morals and narcissistic worldviews (in our case, US exceptionalism) allow for the dehumanization of both threats and innocents alike. When I ask war mongers who supported Obama's drone strikes why it's okay to slaughter civilians in the name of justice and liberation, they parrot that they are just collateral damage for a just cause. They literally parrot what Dany said, that to kill them would allow her to "free" future generations. This is the delusion Dany has been living under since she destabilized Slaver's Bay, just like we've been living under our delusions since we destabilized Iraq and Afghanistan.
SpiderMark M. idk, correct me if I’m wrong but I do not recall her having anything but pity and compassion for children at least. Even after she burned them all, she knew these innocents did nothing wrong, in contrast to the past killings where she thought her victims did actions that warranted her brutality. She locked up two of her dragons after drogon killed a kid. Seemed to indicate to me that her internal moral structure is overwhelmingly simplistic-innocents, enemies and allies. I am not saying that she’s never been cruel, I am simply saying that for her to attack innocents when she didn’t need to and taking into account her past moral framing-seems inconsistent to me.
Emily Amaro I am not American so not sure if my response would be too relevant, and although I appreciate the « freedom » parallel you just made, I do not necessarily agree with it. I think a large part as to why some ppl believe this type of narrative is their distance from the ground. In my experience, it is much more difficult to buy such an incongruent narrative-that to free people you must kill innocents when you easily could not have done so-when you see the killings for yourself, on the ground, and hear the screams of the people.
Dany’s position, that of a perpetrator, and the people you are talking about-removed, detached and brainwashed, seem different to me.
TGB This is just the way I saw it, but I don’t think that Dany really made it a point to kill the innocent. When she decides to burn the city, I don’t think the innocent or the people are even a thought in her head. I think that she just chooses to make it personal, and the innocents were included on the receiving end of it. Also, the way she words it suggests that she doesn’t think that she killed them, but rather that Cersei killed them. Dany says that Cersei used their innocence as a weapon against her; she takes no responsibility for the killing. It all ends up as Cersei’s fault; it was Cersei who instigated everything, and it was Cersei who put the people there. So, in Dany’s mind, the deaths are all Cersei’s fault. Cersei is the reason they are dead, so Cersei is the one who killed them. I personally feel like the final season was very rushed, and they did the best they could under the constraints imposed. But I also don’t want to say Dany doing this is out of character or character assassination, because her behavior was both foreshadowed and contextualized within her hero’s journey. Foreshadowing is not development, but I think that it’s important to remember that everyone around Dany saw her as the hero, and she did too, because it was her story. Again, this is just the way I saw it.
Good video.
Daenerys was like Icarus , she was too close of the sun ( the ultimate power) , and she has fallen from high.
In game of thrones who is too high must fall.
Her story is the best example of all the philosophy of the saga, with the problems exposed all along the saga, and solved at the end.
How the main characters end, fits very well with the philosophy of the saga , the relation to power, war, etc....
Can we talk about how this is all Tyrion’s fault Danny came to kings landing and said she should fly with the three dragons to the red kept and rip Cersei out Tyrion said no thinking of his family if Danny would have followed her intuition little blood would have been spilled but now we have another system of conniving and bull Bran elected king, Bron appointed master of coin kickbacks and payola. When Bran dies in what three hundred years with his multiple superpowers how will a new king be chosen through bribery and intimidation.
Even if I were to accept your explanation for this nonsense ending, a much more powerful story in my opinion would have been Jon acting as the compliment to the flaws in her character and helping to reform her instead of killing her. Killing her to me shows cynicism on the part of an author who knows no other message to articulate other than violence, ultimately, while claiming to be an anti war proponent.
Good point. In spite of the time since it was made I wanted to mention that. Plus killing her should've had Ned Stark like impacts which would kick off more wars and suffering-not less.
Oh Jesus Christ. She burned the whole town.
12 likes… yikes. A guy of the very people that got mad with the “Mad Queen” arc. Compliment her flaws? Reform her? This ain’t a Sandra Bullock rom-com, maybe Disney would pick up those lesser powerful stories you think of
Friend of mine told me before I started watching this series: "People don't like it because they didn't get the ending that *THEY wanted. Doesn't necessarily mean that it was a bad ending. Ridiculous comments like yours and other people I see prove that completely. Some people are corrupt by power. Once that happens, a person can get drunk with it. She wasn't only drunk with power, she was drunk with rage, jealousy, and grief. All that was fueled by hatred, pain, and revenge. There is a point of no return for every human being.
For you simpletons not to pick up on that, it's just sad.
The real sad part? Jon actually thought he was trying to save Daenerys. He looked every bit as heartbroken as Tyrion was when the last Lannister argued for the death of his queen.
@Liz Lee No offense but I have no idea what you are actually trying to say with all that.
@@johnathonhaney8291 same im so confused
@@johnathonhaney8291 He's trying to say that sir ad01f was a good man
@@johnathonhaney8291 same im so confused what last lannister? Lmao
Did you just make me like the finale of GOT?!? That is the nuance Im gunna assume GRRM will put in his ending.
I really like the acknowledgement that the in-show character building that resulted in her burning down KL was the 30 seconds where her face became full of rage. Perfect video that talks about Dany’s journey while also pointing out the poor execution and problematic ending-something that D&D accelerated at. I’d hate to be married to those bastards.
It's the execution what was so terrible imo. SO rushed
Assuming he ever finishes the series.
Nicely done commentary, but i've always felt that if a show/movie needs to have the ending explained than it was a failure.
Maybe it's just you that's the failure.
@@georgeleinberger8670 nice try attempting to shift the writers failure(s) to someone else, but it doesn't work that way.
Either it's clear or it's not. Period.
The fact that they have to explain in videos afterwards why Dany makes the choice she does is very poor writing, plotting and character arc. Foreshadowing is not character development.
I find this a poor ending, rushed and cheap. I am not totally upset that Dany meets her end, it is the weak way the writers did it.
Watch the previous season again and count how many times Dany suggests they could end the war by storming KL and how any civilians remaining within the walls are complicit in Cersei’s unjust rule. Consider that if they would turn on Cersei, what would they do to the foreign dragon queen when a handsome northerner turns out to have the better claim?
All her advisors that cautioned against sacking KL are dead or are actively betraying her. Who’s left in her inner circle? Grey Worm, the brainwashed and castrated child soldier who’s only desires are to kill the masters, obey Daenerys, and get revenge for Missandi.
Still poorly written. And yes I have watched it again.
yet you kept pushing for foreshadowing when you wanted her to attain that power.
@@saeedvazirian Egads, no I did not. 😂
@@Ellington3 ehh, it's ok to deny it, I don't blame you, but I know you did.
I love how you're able to articulate precisely what is genuinely good as well as what is genuinely lacking about this season...
Tyrions home city is Castlely Rock not Kings Landings
lannisport*
It was his home for a while, to be fair, and he did risk his life to protect its people as Hand.
Bradley Janssen and also it was snow not ash the producers confirmed
Daenerys: "You're not you when you're hungry".
Your thoughtful analysis is truly one of the best that I've heard and it's helped me to appreciate season 8 even with it's flaws. The constant whining on other channels is now more depressing than Daenerys's death. Looking forward to more of your videos!
Aminah Majied FOR REAL. It’s been such a whine fest. They should go back to watching Disney if they want something a little easier to digest 😂
“Stop whinging” “I’m not whinging!” “Your lips are moving and your complaining. That’s whinging.”
@@emilyamaro9263 Exactly.
Pointing out huge plot holes and having trouble accepting that dany got full tyrant in like 2 episodes is not whining. Dany sacrificied her army and her throne to go help jon fight the army of the dead to save the lives of people she did know. But suddenly she wants to kill them all. If she was that tyrant all along she would not have sacrificied everything to fight the dead. Game of thrones used to be great and therefore people have expectations. People get flashed by the beautiful cinematographie and battles and forget that the best seasons used to be character driven and only had a fight per season. Your definition of whining would also include any form of criticism. Without criticism, things can never improve.
Rafaela Scheiwiller lmao no it doesn’t, please stop ignoring how self centered and narcissistic Dany has been since season one. She BURNED a gang rape victim alive. She coerced abused child soldiers into being her army for free, instead of giving them a life outside warfare. She doesn’t empower the Dothraki women she CONSOLIDATES they into militarized force and uses their brutality to subjugate a continent she never deserved. She adopted her brothers obsessions and delusions of grandeur right after he died, all the while acting like it was always her birthright, and you all fell for it because she was marginalized as a woman in a misogynistic world.
News flash, so was Miri, and she was raped and her town slaughtered EXPLICITLY because Daenerys asks Drogo to help her take the Iron Throne. Dany was complicit in war crimes from SEASON ONE. She also burns anyone who doesn’t show her undying loyalty when she “saves them” and Miri was the first, KL was the final form of Daenerys’ rage for revenge (NOT the same as justice btw!!)
This is the pivotal decision where she stops being solely a victim and complicit in war crimes for the first time. It’s obfuscated by how Dany and Drogo have this conversation while all lovey dovey. Go watch season one again and realize Dany was NOT righteous in her actions, and allowed her self righteous attitude to prevent her from ACTUALLY helping another woman of a different race combat misogyny.
She never denies that she intended to raise her son as the “stallion who mounts the world” when Miri points out why it’s better that the genocidal family was stopped in its tracks. Think about that for a minute. Dany both in the horse heart ceremony and in Drogo’s war speech looks THRILLED, not horrified at the thought of rape and pillage going on in her name or by her future flesh and blood.
Dany tried to white feminist her way with Miri and Miri instead did NOT show undying loyalty to her and her mass raping, mass murdering hubby. So she was violently executed in one of the worst ways imaginable.
Again how is it your fave isn’t disturbed by the smell of burning flesh? It’s said to haunt people their whole lives and even make them wary of certain cooked meats because of ptsd. Dany seems to relish it and want more even when less brutal executions are literally always available. (Not that she didn’t f*ck up when she executed Mossador too.) Ya wanna know the only nation in our world today that has execution by FLAMETHROWER?? North Korea. Yikes. Your fave is more like North Korea than anything else in terms of human rights abuses. 😳
Before anyone says ‘oh but she killed her baby!’ No she didn’t, she talked more shit to twist the knife after Dany miscarried (she is a baby of sibling incest and she was pushed by a blood rider onto her stomach.... it’s pretty simple tbh) because she LITERALLY saw women and children beheaded and killed. She feels Dany is complicit and the she was.
Remember that Dany accidentally gives Miri the chance to assassinate Drogo, because she’s really stupid enough to believe this woman loves her now and sees her as her savior, while he was sitting in front of a PILE OF HEADS from her town. HEADS. Dany is a sick weirdo for ever thinking Miri would develop Stockholm syndrome for Drogo like she did considering the setting. Girl never learned to read a room lmao take a look at how she died?? It’s the same exact reason Drogo was killed, her own ignorance.
Dany is one of the most consistent characters on there y’all are just mad you fell for her god-complex and conquering mentality. Anyways, stop drone strikes and be an anti war activist like George 😬
This video asked the question, "Who is the greatest threat to the people now?" - Final Jeopardy answer - "Who are David Benioff and D.B. Weiss?"
Thank you! I finally found a video that spoke my mind. I’ve been defending the ending of Game of Thrones especially with Dany dying for three years. I always knew Jon was Frodo just because his best friend was Sam. It all made sense. Everything made sense. And I just get really tired of all the complaining and whining. I don’t know why people are so upset except the only thing I see was the problem was it was rushed.
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like the only person that liked the ending
Daenerys’ turn was not believable. If I’d have seen her kill innocents from Season 3 I wouldn’t have an issue. That character development just wasn’t there. People can talk about foreshadowing all they want. Foreshadowing does not equal character development. I hate that not enough people are discussing how underhanded and manipulative Sansa Stark became. She threw her brother under the bus for her own personal gain. I was not satisfied with that ending. Speaking of manipulative people, Bran being king... smh. All this stems from bad writing and a desire to rush the ending.
And hurry up and get to Star Wars! This’ll be a treat. 😑
Her burning the city could have been done better.
What if she had a line after Jamie had shown up about wanting revenge of Cerci and everyone else in Kings Landing who refused to come north and join in the battle. This threat to even the common folk of King's Landing is what makes Varry's worried.
He approached Tyrion who claims he can talk Danni out of burning the city. Sansa reveals that there Jon is the true Targaryen heir now Varry's has a new person to back. He approaches Tyrion for support and uses the speech about how she had been cheered when using fire and blood against evil folks and now thinks she can do no wrong. This better setts up for her burning the city, even after they have surrendered.
The North wanted independence ever since Robb Stark was king. Sansa also wanted that. She didn't trust that Dany would grant the North independence.
Colin Luk Of course Daenerys was never letting go of the North! She literally from the get go told Jon to bend the knee. He agreed and in exchange for that she fought against the Night King. Sansa and the entire North didn’t stand a chance without Daenerys and her armies. Sansa was a traitor, Littlefinger 2.0!
@@MargieMedina Everyone has their own motivations which sometimes they can't let go. Cersei wouldn't aid in the Long Night because doing so would weaken her chances at retaining the Iron Throne. Sansa wants the North independent and doesn't trust Daenerys given the Stark family history with the Mad King.
It's so wild when you re-watch Thrones Dany later on in the series acts JUST like her brother did in season 1. Everything is hers or his BY RIGHT. Power corrupted her, she always failed at the political game, her selfish wants were always HER wants, not the people she was "saving". Heres something people don't talk about...when Dany saves someone she moves on to the next group to "liberate" and completely abandons the previous group she cared so much about until finally she dies before she gets what she always claimed was her "right", the iron throne. Such a fulfilling charecter arc. This story is about how power can truly corrupt humanity (as this vid explains). The show writers knew exactly what the end goal was with her charecter and in my honest opinion, the arc was completely in charecter and natural. Hate all ya want, I loved how Shakespearen the series was.
Yes, finally! I never understood how no one ever brought up the fact, that she abandoned the people she „liberated“ when it didn’t interest her anymore. Also what bothered me is that Daenerys always sentenced to death, giving no second chances. For someone who wanted to be seen as a savior, she always went for the extremes. But I agree that it was rushed. George R.R. Martin asked for 10 season (it would end in the same way), to give more insight. But Daenerys story was bound to go downfall. One person can not build an Utopia, an imaginary world when everyone is happy, thanks to one him/her/them. Many with such dreams, and wish to do good and bring justice, ended up as the world‘s worst dictators.
Oh my God! I’m not alone.
I just noticed in season 3 episode 10 right before the newly freed slaves came out she said to Jorah "I guess they didn't want to be conquered" jorah replied "not conquered, liberated."
Yeah. She was so heartless that she locked up her dragons when they killed a child. Lots of quotes are missing from this explanation, but because those quotes and actions would call the ending into question, they are omitted.
Spot on!
Its explained in the books. The girl symbolizes the consequence of using her dragons, which she initially does not want hence why she locks them up. At the end, she forgets the childs name to embrace fire and blood.
No one said she was evil. People are not all good or all bad. That’s what makes us human. I think she was a good person but because of circumstances and the corrupting nature of complete power, even the best of us can fall.
“Why so many women are depicted going mad”?...that’s what we do with every bad male ruler in a mythical setting when we are describing a tyrant. Cmon, the archetype of the mad queen or the tyrant king is thousands of years old.
I hope The Take can prove that Bran is the ultimate evil of Westeros all along
“The path to destruction is paved with good intentions”.
As much as I love Daenary's story I never really thought of her as the future Queen of the seven kingdoms she was too queenly from the start till the end. It will seem too obvious and too predictable if she ended up being the winner.
Still I hate Tyrion. Her downfall began the moment she accepted Tyrion. He was and always has been loyal to his family. A hypocrite who will kill millions of people for his family and then end up feeling bad when it's his turn to attack them.
Jon was a big disappointment. I thought he had learn a lot from his journey but then he stayed the same. Never having his own decision when it's his turn to decide on what he should really do. He ended up asking if what he did was right and said that he didn't feel that what he did was right but still he did it.
Cersei should've faced a much painful death than what she received. She is the true mad queen. Yet they made her ending look soooo "romantic" being with Jaime till the end. Whatever happened to Jaime's feelings for Brianth? He just played with her heart.
Jon is not a disappointment. He’s the one character that stayed true to his morals. He never lost his moral compass even after he died. He always tried to do the right thing. He’s the true hero of the story and like great heroes, especially from the western genre or Moses, they save the town only to be expelled. I think he’s the greatest character of all. :)
“Power is dangerous. It corrupts the best and attracts the worst." - Ragnar Lothbrok
its amazing the lengths some fans are willing to go to to attempt to make sense out of this bullshit ending.
The ending makes perfect sense, the rushed build and delivery of it is what's confused.
@@superstrat5826 stop repeating that same tired old line, parrot. They destroyed the characters with this storyline. That ending would have been trash, regardless.
Arya killing night king? Bran becoming king? Dany turning evil? Sansa becoming queen in the north? Its all shit and pointless.
@@jdogsful Add in Jon's parentage. The many talks about marriage between Jon and Daenerys since the last episode of season 7. Daenerys ability to be pregnant and her line of succession that has been talked about during the second half of season 7. The offscreen discussion between Tyrion and Cersei after he founds out that she is pregnant. All pointless.
Jon's character and parentage are plot devices for the mad queen plot. Add in Missandei having no interaction with Dany who has talked plenty of times in private since season 3, so that they make Dany somehow isolated and used as a plot device for the mad queen plot this season. Also Davos, Jon's advisor, gives zero advice to Jon this season. We don't know how Jon feels about his parentage, same for his sisters.
The new system of governance that they put in place does not end anything. Bran has no armies and no actual power. He is term limited. When the Ironborn rebel or raid, what can Bran do? When Bronn inevitably tries to take over Riverrun because Edmure is a bitch, what can Bran do? When Dorne decides to not pay taxes and becomes independant, what can Bran do? The lords of Westeros are not going to stop scheming because there is an omniscient cripple (who most of them had never met) sitting on the throne.
Even worse, they created a system where any Lord can be elevated to King by playing the game of thrones well. Westeros could become even more political as players attempt to be the next person chosen for the throne. They just created possibly the worst system of governance imaginable for Westeros. They made a bigger and worse wheel than what they started out with. Guarantees civil wars for generations to come.
"Daenerys' endpoint sadly take away from our world the unequivocally empowering symbol of the strong woman who emerge from victimhood"
THIS. This is why I disliked what happened, a lot. She was becoming an icon.
True, although I don't think that's what Martin intended for her to be.
Agreed.
Very good analysis. I always thought that Daenerys would end like this, considering how she acted since season 2, but actually I mostly saw her "Targaeryen entitlement". Thanks for extending my view on her character 👌
There’s a story about Azor Azai, the Prince Who was Promised.
He unleashed the power of his sword, Lightbringer and saved the world from the darkness, by killing his loving wife with the said sword.
Jon, the so-called Savior, saves the world, by killing Daenerys. He doesn’t just fulfill the prophecy, he lives the story.
The fact that it happened again seems to say that the old world always sneaks into the new world, despite what we do.
You guys and Lessons from the Screenplay do the best video analysis hands down... 😄
Nice to see someone else get the same take that I took.
Here's the thing tho.
Feudalism was historically ended through absolutist monarchies bringing the militarized nobility to heel by force and slowly building the structure of modern nations.
France, Spain, Germany, Italy, Russia, even Japan. They were all were united militarily under one powerful ruler. Or at least a centralized government focused around the ruler. England's Parliament was one of the very few exceptions, and that was only because power was slowly tranferred from the landowning nobles to the rich merchants, bankers and eventually industrialists.
Tyrion, with his genius plan, just created an even looser system than before. The throne is once again going to be the centrepiece of conflict between the Great Lords, with them constantly jockeying for position with each other every time a ruler looks like he'll die.
There will be many, MANY more assassinations and wars in the future of the Seven Kingdoms.
Oh, and seccession movements as well, since apparently the North has been allowed to split off and become an independent kingdom simply because the ruler happens to be sister to the king.
Well done Tyrion. That's a lot of extra suffering you managed to bring about.
Face it. The Dragon Queen's rule was the only hope for the Seven Kingdoms. A peaceful future died with her.
Tom J I also feel vindicated about saying there will be no democracy. Liberalism didn’t just appear one day, it was a philosophical, socio-political, and socio-economic revolution. The aristocrat’s reactions at the thought of letting people have a say was exactly what I expected at such suggestions. No way would they give up their privilege and power. Westeros isn’t developed enough for liberal democracies or republics. Not without a period of enlightened intellectual thought.
True, when the tyrant like her in our world comes along you can volunteer to be immolated alive with your family for the cause.
That's what happens when you break a wheel. The rest of the wagon collapses with it gone. And Daenerys (I can never call her Dany again) would have just been another terrible ruler in a land that had seen too many of them.
@@johnathonhaney8291 Still doesn't change the fact that Tyrion's decision was awful. Historically awful, in fact.
@@emilyamaro9263 So you would have been against the American Revolution?
Oh! I just thought up another reason the show's ending had issues. The entire concept of magic was never fully developed in this show, at least not to my satisfaction. Dany has dragons, yet the people of Westeros doubt dragons exist, even though the rulers of Westeros have had [small] dragons for centuries. Melisandre used magic successfully for a time, until her magic became useless, because plot.
The people of Westeros treat magic like something out of a fairy tale, but--we're talking literally two generations ago, here. Like, within some citizens' lifetime, there was a king on the Iron Throne who had dragons. There's an entire ancient palace built to hold dragons. There's magical fire that decides a major battle and kills off a bunch of important lords and ladies.
So--how could anyone not understand that magic exists? How could anyone treat magic like something out of a fairy tale?
And to the extent that Dany does herald the return of magic--isn't she right, to a certain degree? She's living out a fantasy land that no one else can even touch. She lived through being burned alive. That does make her some kind of saint/heroine/magical being, which does give her some sort of inherent right to authority, if not to rule.
And what happens to magic, if Dany dies?
Magic in fantasy in today's society has increasingly heralded an attempt to overturn class structures, or to keep benevolent class structures in place when the unworthy try to seize power for power's sake.
Without magic, we've no hope of breaking the wheel.
She was a great character if she had to die she should have died a hero, not a villain.
Since the in proper GoT dimension bells don't mean surrender (season 2 proved this) season 8 arguably took place in a mirror dimension with different characters that looked similar and lands named the same but with different traditions. Daenerys (the actual one) may be alive and will in the proper GoT dimension.
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain. - The Dark Night
Yeah, I realized that in hindsight Dany didnt really ever bat an eye at all the burn-the-world talk that the Dothraki went around saying, she was all for it.
Excellent analysis!
Throughout the show, Dany's unwillingness to compromise and penchant for violence never sat right with me. She didn't feel like the altruistic monarch she believed she was.
She didn't have a penchant for violence that was unreasonable. She had a bit of provocative rhetoric and a slogan, but everything she actually did prior to zig-zag fire-sweeping the streets of KL was justified, especially considering the world she's in.
She was largely unwilling to compromise, though.
Same here. Never really voted in her character especially for the throne, but it was one heck of a ride. I enjoyed how she overcame her obstacles in the first half of the series.. it wasn't much fun near the end though sadly
I really appreciate the quality of your analyses and the depth of thought that goes into your video studies here. And I will enthusiastically continue to subscribe. But I don't agree that any of Dany's previous actions or statements in any way foreshadows her destroying a whole city of common people (as opposed to repressive elites or enemy soldiers), nor that even having done that means she could become Hitler-like. Here is why: the Allies (FDR and Churchill) DID burn a whole city - Dresden, and Harry Truman burned two cities - Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Abraham Lincoln, in Danaerys-like rhetoric said in his second Inaugural address that "if every drop of blood spilled by the whip must be paid for by one drawn by the sword" then it would mean that the judgment of God was just and righteous, AND his army (under Sherman) burned Atlanta to the ground and then marched to the Sea burning all in its wake. Does any of that mean that any of those four men, all leaders of democratic countries and liberators all, one even of slaves, the others of enslaved nations, would have carried out the Holocaust? Or had events like the Nuremburg rallies? No.
No. And THAT is WHY the writers HAD to make her irrationally and without reason attack the people of Kings Landing AFTER the surrender - had she done so during the battle, then Dany is no worse than our greatest heroes of the last 100 years in the US and UK. And there would be no more reason to think that action would mean a dictatorship would follow than one followed in the US or UK after the Civil War or after WWII. But ALL of her previous actions and statements - see the Allies call for "unconditional surrender" of the Nazis and Japan in WWII - do not prefigure becoming Hitler, anymore than Winston Churchill became Hitler after the War.
See here’s my hot take on this: I got what the ending was saying, I didn’t miss any of the symbolism etc but I do reject it outright and my disappointment remains. If dragons are wise enough to understand the corruptive power of the throne why then did Drogon burn all those people? What was the point of pointless canon fodder dialogue like Arya saying “I know a killer when I see one” after witnessing war crimes, slaughtering an entire family herself and basically everyone in the show being a murderer at this point anyway. Why did so many great characters with great potential to say and do amazing things fizzle our into Hollywood fluff that left millions of fans disillusioned and annoyed? Even the apologists who say “this was hinted all along!” Concede that it’s a a sloppy delivery. I’m on the side of the coin that’s outraged by the death of all the powerful women, by the notion that Dany didn’t actively try to curb her worst impulses with loyal advisors who were either killed or betrayed her for approximately no (or at least out of character) reasons. And culminating in deaths for characters that are not remotely memorable, special or iconic.
Like you said a mad queen Dany isn’t a mad idea, but a pacifist Tyrion, a monosyllabic Jon who barely does anything, bitchy stark sisters who shut out someone helping, a basically static Cersei and a dragon queen who just gives a strange face and commits war crimes... that ain’t it.
1) Drogon was under the control of Dany while she was alive.
2) Arya's line is cringe, I'll give you that.
3) Everyone on the show murdered, but not for equally noxious reasons. There is a lot of nuance in this show. Dany murdered because she felt entitled to rule an entire continent by conquest and without any indigenous support.
4) Because GOT is the anti-narrative. Remember when Ned was gonna join the Night's Watch, Renly was gonna make an alliance with Rob, Rob was gonna march on Casterly rock, Oberyn was gonna find out who gave the order after beating the Mountain, Joffrey was just getting started on terrorizing Tyrion... GRRM in GOT fizzles out narratives ON PURPOSE. It's not an accident. That's because narratives are a form of propaganda and GRRM wanted to challenge these tropes. Dany's journey and narrative is just one giant propaganda reel, she even accumulates titles as she goes along in the fashion of Idi Amin.
5) Well, yes, many women do go crazy with power because it is evident they have a chip on their shoulder the size of Texas and also imagine male power as this delicious free buffet they can just stuff their face in without any consequence whatsoever. Then they get surprised when things don't work that way and cry sexism. The only time male power is ever valued or regarded to be a positive thing is when it's in the service of others. If Dany were a blonde dude a lot of eyebrows would have arisen much sooner at his (her) treatment of things.
6) Well, don't pacifists, handicapped and people who aren't verbose or self-aggrandizing or as Tyrion would say 'cripples, bastards and broken things'... don't they also deserve a place in the fantasy genre? It's the one story where those in the shadows emerged on top. If you want dashing King Aragorn types, you can find that just about anywhere else.
7) It's obvious the Stark sisters are 'bitchy' because Dany's help comes with some huge strings attached. And Cersei doesn't have much to do because being good at intrigue and being good at ruling are two drastically different things.
7) Dany's death in the throne room could very well be one of the most memorable in the history of television. Jon making the choice to stab Dany is the culmination of the entire show.
I don't know why to have so much hatred for the stark...they were the most who suffered without any ambition...and Arya takes revenge from the people who killed her family at a marriage..and danarys killed thousands of innocent people and children:(maybe it was written badly but please don't blame the starks
Decent points Connor. Season 8 was character breaking done in a nonsense way to try to excuse emotional scenes that had little logic to them-and potentially ignore the moral decay of those Starks that remained (untrustworthy Sansafinger and possible scheming mass murderer Bran).
Serb, I think I've seen you before but in case I didn't on some of your points.
Third point) season 7 shows there is clear indigenous support-Dorn, Yara Greyjoy's faction, and The Reach support Daenerys before she even arrives in Westeros. The North may be independent but at the start of season 7 Sansa points out to Jon that Cersei is their mortal enemy and will try to kill them sooner or later.
4) Crazy women (including queens) and dragons burning towns are long running tropes. Plus the whole women getting to powerful and needing to be killed by their man is arguably a trope.
5) I call bs. If Dany were a man that wouldn't make her fight against slavery any less of a positive thing. Ditto for expanding rights for common people (turning Meereen into a democracy was a major expansion of rights).
6) There were actual pacifists in Game of Thrones. They were killed when the Hound wasn't there. Bran arguably is not a pacifist. He is someone with magic powers that used those powers to arrange the mass murder of innocents in order to get 2 people with a better claim to the crown out of his way.
7) What strings? Daenerys in season 7 offered to help Jon for free against the Night King because she saw just how dangerous he and his undead were. Jon gave up his crown for her for free after this because he saw she was worthy. Sansafinger (or Cersei light) rather stupidly betrays Jon and Dany because she is petty. No Dany means Jon and this army of the North are outnumbered by Cersei's army and both Jon and Sansafinger are likely to end up dead-making Sansafinger rather stupid when it comes to diplomacy and strategy.
8) I think you made a mistake with your numbering there. But more important is that a problem with Jon stabbing Dany is both their characters have to be really messed with to make that scene happen-plus a number of logic flaws have to be crammed into the plot.
@@akshitasinha4594 Sansafinger was actually pretty ambitious. She wanted to be a queen since season 1 and even lied about not knowing what Joffery had done to Arya and her friend in her attempts to keep her chance at it. Plus Sansafinger betrays an oath she made to Jon in less that a day in order to undermine a Jon's girlfriend who just risked her life honoring promises she made to Jon. Sansafingers actions were uncalled for and show her to be totally untrustworthy.
But Bran is arguably worse because he used Dany's grief as a window of opportunity to mentally break her and kill many innocent people just so he could grab a crown that should've been with Jon or Dany. And the way Bran used Jon's linage to mess up Jon and Dany's relationship and then kept it hidden when the council was picking who should be king or queen shows Bran was using Jon's linage as a tool and throwing it away when it wasn't useful to Bran himself any longer.
If I could understand all these underlying meanings I would have never disliked the last season ....thanks for making me like the last season !
Thank you for having an open mind. I wish you weren’t so alone.
this channel is so nice when they analyze things, like cmon we know you were also disappointed too guys you can admit it
They kind of did when they said that the thoughts they mentioned in the "Inside the Episode" didn't make it to the screen. I think they just decided to focus more on the positive, what you can learn from the story if you try, which is very refreshing imo. While I agree that season 8 deserves criticism I really don't understand why people actively get so consumed in their hatred.
D&D made Dany into the mad queen in order to protect the wheel rolling over everyone.
"A more enlightened form of government?" Yeah, if you consider putting a time bomb on the throne as "enlightened". Bran is essentially like putting a savant form of an oracle in charge. He can literally bend people's minds when he wargs them. You want that kind of a guy in charge? I don't think so. And who knows if it wasn't him that made Danaerys go mad? Then there's the nature of putting Sansa, a liar and a corruption in the North. Interesting they got rid of Jon by forcing him back beyond the wall and Arya sent off to who knows where Then sending the Unsullied off to Naath where they will most likely die by the poisonous butterflies. Bran is basically moving those pieces on the chess board while everyone else is playing checkers. The only hope I have is in my mind I play out that Drogon took Dany to Essos where Kinvara brought her back and after she recovers, she takes Drogon back to Westeros to beyond the wall and finds Jon and tells him what Bran did. She says to him
Zaldrīzes buzdari iksos daor.
“A dragon is not a slave.”
Meaning: Neither one of them could be controlled because both she and Jon are dragons therefore cannot be enslaved, however, he did get inside her head to make her mad. I see them sending a raven to Sam telling him what Bran did and what must be done. They do depose Bran and retake The North after they find the Unsullied before they get to Naath, and what was left of the Dothraki. Oh, they also find a clutch of new dragons Drogon laid while in Old Valyria. So there's now, oh, about a dozen all ready to go with Drogon at the head. Next Jon and Dany mount Drogon and head South. Jon leaves the Wildlings in The North, but as always Tormund comes with him along with Ghost. They head to Winterfell and retake it from Sansa who because of the dragons gives up to Jon and Dany. Leaving a garrison there to make sure Sansa behaves, they head for King's Landing where they are able to combat Bran and retake the city and both Jon and Dany are crowned co-leaders. Therefore NO MORE FRIGGING STARKS.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's a classic story and I'm really surprised so many people didn't see it coming.
The proble is the execution. Dany sacrificied her own army and claim to the throne to help fight against the dead 3 episodes ago. Im sorry, but a tyrant who burns innocent people doesnt risk to lose everything to save them all. She was cruel to her ennemies, yes. But so was everyone else. Jon executed a kid who was corruptrd by grown men. Arya fed frey his children. Everyone in power in got executed their ennemies and oftentimes are just as cruel. Danny turning full tyrant needed several seasons to fully flesh out. Even the mad king had years until he turned fully mad
I can't argue that the last season wasn't rushed because it absolutely was but she was talking about burning cities to the ground since almost the beginning of the show. Also it seemed clear to me she was developing a god complex from about season 3 or 4 on, clearly she could do no wrong for a while and everywhere she went she was the people's savior. She had never handled anybody questioning what she considered her birthright very well and she had known nothing but love from the people she thought she was helping until she got to westeros. I think once she saw how the people loved Jon snow more than her and for sure after she found out he had the birth right not her she made a decision to do what she did, let it be fear. I thought after she burned Kings landing she really liked it and decided to burn the whole world at that point. That's just my two cents. I'm really not surprised anything played out the way it did and I'm sure in the books her decent into madness will be much more articulated.
@@bigbrad6828 ah well yeah i agree. It made perfect sense for me that dany will turn out this way. But there was no instance where she used violence on innocent people before and suddenly she burns the whole city. I think danys turn to madness would have needed at least one more season to flesh out. Also show her inner struggle and the one of jon. I guess im just sad because a show that was once so chracater driven and had like one fight per season is now a carricature of all of this. Also i really hate how so many questions are left unanswered. And bran doesnt do anything with his abillities. I hope the books will explain most of my questions
Yeah I agree they could have done a better job with all of it. I think they just rushed through that last season to get it over with.
Absolutely excellent analysis. One of the best descriptions of Game of Thrones and Daenerys Targaryen I have seen! Bravo! Can't wait for Part 2!
He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee
That Was Awesome!! So much of season 7 and 8 seemed like fan-pleasing video-game-inspired storytelling; but the last episode told a terrific story, and your analysis clearly brings that out. You guys are so smart!
When you cry after hearing those couple of seconds of the rains of Castamere.
That song only plays during times of great tragedy, and Jamie and Cersei’s bodies being found killed me, that song saved a rushed and arguably stupid death of Jamie the antihero, and Cersei our favourite villain.
First video I found not bitching about the ending, definitely not saying it was great, I didn't like a lot of it, but I feel there was very few analysis's that said anything that wasn't said before, thanks for this positive outlook
Do you watch the New Rockstars channel? They keep it positive, and pay close attention to details.
@@SmokeyLaBear awesome! Thanks bro!! I'll check it out!
@@SmokeyLaBear You my friend, you gave me a worthy way to spend my night👌 lot's of thanks from Amsterdam ❤️
5:31
Every time I see this scene, I feel like Emilia forgot her line here.
Same but it does add substance to the scene - at this point, Daenerys is barely surviving and her Khalasar is in few numbers. She is literally a girl with no firepower to back up her claims at this point in time. Loved how the cringe Jorah does fits so well.
Yes! Also it makes sence.
Ending explained: The writers got lazy. The end.
*Busy (Star Wars)
The ending of game of thrones have left a dull feeling in me, it felt like I could never get over the disappointment, but this video gave me proper closure. Thank you.
Its interesting how everyone who liked he thought this was rushed or a surprise. Its says alot ,how people overlook red flags when it comes to someone they are attached too.. for years I picked out time after time that said whe is not what you think she is. This character was brilliantly written
Thank you. Someone that gets it.
Ny head cannon is that Drogon took Dany somewhere that turns her into a literal dragon.
But other than that, Dany was always compassionate. She identified with the weak and oppressed. Her turn to a tyrant may have been arguably foreshadow, but it still comes out of left field.
Other than that, she looked like a bride on her wedding day.
She burned a victim of genocide and gang rape to death but y'all forgot cos LOOK COOL DRAGONS. Please remember the Lazahreen were slaughtered because Dany asked her mass murdering husband for an iron chair.
Emily, you forgot that victim of gang rape killed Daenerys's unborn child. Plus don't use the look dragons excuse. People supported Daenerys because she freed slaves and tried to make life better for people.
GRRM never said that asoiaf was Jon and Daenerys’s story, that was D&D. GRRM himself has said that Jon and Dany make up about 5% of the story, not bc of their lack of importance but because so many other factors contribute to the story as well. Don’t misquote
You are mistaken, on several counts. *Late during the airing of season 7, director Alan Taylor told the media that George R. R. Martin told him back in the first season that the story was about Jon and Dany coming together.* Taylor was surprised, even shocked. It was only late in season 7, when Jon had bent the knee to Daenerys and a romance between them seemed inevitable, that Taylor felt free to acknowledge Martin's early reveal.
“When we were shooting Season 1 and no one had seen the show yet, we were in Malta. Back then, there was not a lot of secrecy because nobody was paying attention, and George R.R. Martin came to visit and he was being quite open about his plans,” Taylor told the New York Times.
“He said something: That it really is all about Dany and Jon. I was surprised because at the time, you know, I thought, well Robb Stark’s going to be king next, probably,” he continued. “And who knows where this story’s going? But it was absolutely clear to him that within this sprawling scale the whole story was coming down to this partnership.”
The specific quote above is from Jennifer Calfas's online Aug. 22, 2017 article for TIME, "What George R.R. Martin Told a Game of Thrones Director About Jon Snow and Daenerys Way Back in Season 1," putting the TIME article a few days after the airing of the Taylor-directed "Beyond the Wall." Essentially the same report from Taylor was reported in *many* media outlets toward the end of the seventh season; I don't know what the original media source was, or whether Taylor told the story to multiple media contacts. Further comments from Taylor confirmed that a romantic/sexual relationship between Jon and Dany was looming; it was argued among the fandom in the wake of his revelation whether the "partnership" planned by GRRM for the books was intended to be a romantic one or a purely political alliance.
The problem with utopia is that you have to cross a sea of blood... and you never get there!
This is the problem with Daenerys!
I just do not understand some people here .. unhappy because Daenerys turned out to be emotionaly unfit, crazy, a she Hitler in just one episode.. this was the show called "game of thrones", fits perfectly..
Sansa!
Sansa does it right. She has power and uses it well.
She is the strong female character who overcame victimhood and became a good ruler
Screen Prism- please make a video about Sansa!!
Do what this vid is telling me is that you guys should have wrote the show lol
Daenerys should've snapped out of her madness, realized what she'd done, and either killed herself or tried to kill herself out of guilt, instead of being killed by Jon as the villian the throne made her
She left Slaver's Bay/Bay of Dragon's under the control of her then lover Daario Naharis. They could have had her realize her fawley leave the Seven Kingdoms under the control of her present lover Jon and sailed off to the next realm in need of liberation, but that is not the happy ending Martin wanted.
But is more realist for this ending. Reality of live and tirants is like this. The most dangerous people are the ones who thinks their atrosities are for the better good.
She would never that immediately. She was never taught to confer sensitivity to the pains of those who're not monarchs or rulers. She was spoiled from childhood.
I really always thought that Danny was 100% arrogant by how she always said she was the rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms because of who her father was. She said it was her birthright. But obviously, just being born, isn’t a reason for someone to rule. I also thought it was ironic that she “freed the armies and the slaves” only to demand them fighting for her to the death. She was the definition of an arrogant entitled tyrant. lOL
GREAT video! And good job pronouncing "benevolent" lol...you saw the bloopers, right? Where Peter Dinklage tries and tries to say benevolent but keeps messing up? Lmao. I love Peter (and Tyrion)! And I love your videos. Very thorough, enough clips and details from the show (not just one of y'all sitting in front of a camera performing a monologue) and the narrator has a very pleasant timbre. Or a very serious one, when appropriate. Good job with your editing, too. Overall 👍 xoxo
Would Tyrion’s home city be lannisport?
ASM - it’s Casterly Rock.
Superstarlight867530 actually, casterly rock is a castle (not a city) in the city of lannisport. His home city is lannisport.
Drogon was pissed and couldn't kill Jon so he burned the wall and the throne because it was in front of him no other reason.
This makes me see the last season had so much more potential... 😔 if only the writers had used more episodes to portray the character change in Daenerys
This is one of the best things about season 8! Thank you so much!
Can you please make video about other characters like Sansa or Arya?!
Thanks for doing this video. You have made a video of what I have been trying to convey to other fans who were disappointed by the ending or thought it came out of left field.
And who also seem to think that THEY could write a better season because of their fanfic ratings.
Great job explaining the ending. Your videos always do such a great job getting the point across and offering new points of view.
This makes a lot of sense but still, season 8 was rushed. Too rushed.
I want to say this your best video yet, but you have so many amazing videos ,so I'm not sure
The downfall of a visionary is a tragically beautiful story, one which should've been properly implemented in the show. My main issue with the finale isn't the ending itself, but how the ending was written. It was like D&D expected the foreshadowing and shock value to compensate for a lack of good writing. Danaerys' descent into madness shouldn't have been shown just by an angry look on her face.
You affirm my love for this Story and the for this Show! I loved the Season Finale!!
Your breakdowns & Analysis make me look forward to re-watching the entire Season even more each time with a different perspective on some of my favourite characters.
Keep up the great work !!
It is a complete failure of humanity that this channel isn't getting 1 million+ views. They do the best work of any channel, anywhere, across all time!
People are not angry about the turn of danny, people are angry because it was so rushed.
Exactly. So contrived.
And again, I disagree. Maybe for those that already saw this coming or knew the extent of her power, this felt like a "FINALLY" moment. It extended too long for us. Again, I say this as a non-Dany fan (never was, never will be).
I greatly appreciate that you guys don't really make videos grading things as good or bad (in terms of quality), but instead focus on specific thematic analyses on specific aspects of a story. Hearing that take is more interesting to me than the stockpile of "why this sucks" videos that youtube keeps recommending to me.
Please do a video about Theon or Sansa!
I really appreciated this thoughtful analysis while also giving reasons for why fans, in particular women, were disappointed by the ending.
Great content. I would like your take on a couple questions:
(1) Many cited Tyrion's many mistakes. What were those mistakes? Negotiating with the Masters when Dany's whereabouts was unknown and advising against actions that would led to "Queen of the Ashes" in S7 were far sighted strategies based on available information and resources. Yes, Jamie did saw thru that one. But Tyrion's was a "balanced" alternative to burn them all.
I also wonder how many people in Westeros would consider Jon's action as regicide instead of justice? How many other than those she brought from Esso truly recognized Dany's claim?
Can y'all please do a video about Dany and white feminism? Particularly what she did to Mirri Maz Durr who by all accounts should have been a hero to us, except people were distracted by cgi dragons. But also all the shady stuff she's been doing "liberating" slavers bay. And maybe a bit about George's pacifism, anti-war politics and critiques of western imperialism and American exceptionalism. Thanks.
I would've been happy with the development if they actually showed and not told us for a few episodes instead of having her fine one episode and the next going "No TV, no beer makes Danaerys something something"