Trope Talk: Sins Of The Father
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
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It's not QUITE revenge, but it's revenge-adjacent. Let's talk about a trope where nobody gets what they deserve! And thanks to patron James for requesting this video!
Shoutout to The Last Of Us II for giving me an absolutely iconic Cycle Of Vengeance example. I love it when stories are creative, but I love it more when they give me a completely by-the-book trope execution to use as an example forever.
(I know that example is one of the best modern illustrations of the trope, but that doesn't make this thumbnail any less patently absurd…)
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"You gotta end the bloodline and prevent any revenge killing; I mean that's just evil 101" Queen of Fables
Vinland saga is an excellent example of why a revenge plan never ends well and just creates a cycle of violence.
@@gamingforever9121 It's mostly an example of how being completely unable to learn from your mistakes and think before you act leads to being unable to achieve your goals.
@@maximsavage it’s also a really good read so is berserk shame the author died though
@@gamingforever9121 Indeed.
@@maximsavage no one has any enemies Thorfinn that was probably my favorite line from Vinland Saga
*“You will pay for the sins of your forefathers!”*
“I didn't have four fathers! I just had one father and I didn't know him that well!”
What’s this a quote from?
@@dukeofkings8942 Ernest Scared Stupid.
His ancestor sealed a troll in a tree and got let out by Ernest being an idiot. Shenanigans ensue.
@@dukeofkings8942
A movie that everyone either forgot existed or never heard of: *Ernest Scared Stupid*
A good watch with friends or family during October tho...
What do you call you mom, grandma, great grandma, and great great grandma? Your four bearers.
"I have 1 father and he left to get milk since I was 3 and he never came home."
the “my parent(s) has screw over a lot things and I’m basically the janitor” trope.
Greatest association
Portgas D. Ace in a nutshell.
@@S3rp3nte It's practically his entire character
percy jackson
Oof
Red, you talked about a vengeance plot harming an innocent child by killing their parent, perpetuating the cycle of harm and vengeance, without referencing the best example of this: Kill Bill!
The Bride- a former assassin who was betrayed by her fellow assassins on her wedding night, losing her groom, her child, and several years of her life- goes on a revenge streak against the rest of the Deadly Viper Assassination Squad. The first of the other assassins we see on screen has, in the intervening years, also married and had a daughter, and is content to live quietly in the suburbs.
This does little to stop the Bride from killing the mother, ultimately right in front of the four-year-old little girl.
Rather than make excuses, or try to apologize or set things right, the Bride simply tells the little girl that, when she's grown up and if she wants to get even, the Bride will be waiting for her.
The cycle continues.
And that's what I like about the Kill Bill movies.
It's likely that upon seeing her second target having settled down and having a kid of her own, the very thing that Beatrix Kiddo wanted to have but was violently ripped away from her, that sent her spiraling into hatred.
Another example of Sins of the Father is from Red Dead Redemption. After getting the last member of John Marston's old gang in custody, things start returning to normal for him. But that corrupt U.S. Marshal stab him in the back, by laying siege to his family farm and kills him while his wife and son escape.
Years pass and his son tracks his Father's killer by gathering info on him from his own family, which the game does give you the option to perform collateral here. The kicker is the line that his sister gives to you, "He just wants to live a quiet life now."
Which is exactly what John Marston was promised after doing the dirt government official's job for him.
Quentin should make kill bill 3 with that plot
it wouldve been smarter for her to kill the kid too
Kind of like what Caine said in John Wick 4.
And The Bride also ends the movies by getting a daughter.
You know Kratos might actually be the only example of this that I can think of whose pulled just about every angle on this. He got angry and took revenge on pretty much everyone in range even after he ran out of people to target directly then eventually learned to break the cycle and let go of his anger.
Yeah.. cause he ran out of target's :D
@@ItsAweeb .. *not any more*
Yeah but didn't he literally kill every single being to the point the world was reborn with Norse mythology afterwards
@@Captianmex1C0 No, in that world the different regions have different pantheons from the start, but he did basically destroy Greece. As for what's happening in the upcoming game, Ragnarök was caused by Atreyu(Loki) killing Balder.
Kratos sometimes be a whole mood tho... 👉👈
“Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness... a father's sins, passed to his son.” This is my favorite quote related to this trope.
Ah yes, the gravemind. The bag of flesh that says something cool and poetic literally everytime he speaks
"Why do you always speak in poem? Kinda pretentious."
"Cause it's fun."
I appreciate the Gravemind as the most honest being in fiction.
I'm still mad that they retconned the "the Forerunners were actually humans" twist :c I thought it was really cool -- and it made a lot of sense in that universe, too!
I don’t get the quotes. Did he passed the sins of the father to his son or is it that the son has no reason to come.
@@user-vs3gc4cn3t
I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, to be honest, but the line is the Gravemind from Halo. He's all but confirming that the Forerunners (his ancient enemies) were humans, and announcing his intention to carry that grudge over to Master Chief (and probably humanity in general).
Hope that answers your question! :D
My favorite example(s) of this is for sure Teen Titans as Raven often has to deal with this and it shows that having to deal with the sins of her literal demon lord dad has caused her to feel that sometimes she is no better than him. It really shows the emotional toll on the person receiving the basically underserved punishments.
"You may have created me,
But you were *never* my father."
My main character deals with undeserved punishment and hatred too as well as his own faults. On top of having autism, his mental health is extremely weak...
It is only a great example of moving past it.
Even though she is literally the daughter of the devil and was used as a weapon to destroy her old world...no one blames her.
Despite everything the people that loved her in her old world still loved her despite how she was used against them. They didn't want vengence against her nor did they blame her and the same happened for the teen titans.
They saw what happened "thanks" to her but rather than regretting being her friend or feeling vengence they simply wanted to help her fight her own curse.
@@bibbobella Raven is unique in that she is both the embodiment of "born unlucky" (she was specifically made as a tool for Trigon) and "I know this is bad, but I must do it."
The latter could be portrayed as villainous, but then the former comes in:
She is the product of rape, she does evil and despises herself for it, she desires freedom but knows she is connected to her literal demon of a father.
@@colt9836 Well in the comics she pretty frequently loses herself to rage, and becomes a monster without any sort of cause. Thankfully her friends tend to do the old "I know you're in there somewhere fight", but it doesn't really change that she's done some bad stuff just because she wanted to. Trigon is responsible for some of that, but ultimately Raven isn't perfect.
"Ok everyone, what did we learn today?"
"Kill the bloodline..."
"Kill the F***king bloodline!"
And, 9 times out of 10, you'll miss or overlook someone who will be back after a few years sporting a massive revenge boner.
And the allies of that bloodline, and the allies of the allies, and so on until you are the only one left...
Basically: end earth while chilling on mars being only human alive
Heh, so basically the villains who do this sort of thing have a point.
In the words of Leela, "Can't leave orphans! Gotta kill entire families!"
I really like how Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood handles this with Scar, who both becomes the person seeking vengance for the sins of others, and becomes the target of vengeance for his own sins, and how this forces his arc to change, espcially after meeting Major Miles.
I wanted to make a comment about Scar, but I chose to scroll and find one to like instead. You put it better than I could have. 😂
i was partly expecting fma mentions in this video
The 2003 version was even better.
The Brotherhood version pretty much get's a free pass for his actions in the end while the 03 version takes them straight to the end.
@@matteste Not sure what you mean by that. The 2003 version didn't handle it well at all. 😕
@@matteste The Brotherhood version doesn't get a "free pass"; he learns to put aside his wrath to focus on rebuilding, helps the heroes save the world from the ones who orchestrated the Ishval massacre, and fights Wrath and is nearly killed in the process. After that, he is presumed dead and is able to focus on rebuilding. And if you think he needed at least a trial or something, then you can consider the scene in season 4 where he's captured by the Briggs troops to be his trial.
I think this trope is actually the reason for "eye for an eye." What most people forget about it, is that it is a set of laws. Hamurabi was setting the *upper limits* of acceptable vengeance, not the lower ones as people seem to use it as today. It's purpose is to *prevent* blood feuds. If damage has been done, you can do this much in retaliation and no more. The fact that it's misrepresented probably tells about how hard that was to enforce, but it is good to remember.
Yes, and speaking of which wasn't initial statement of god about bloodline responsibility applicable to primal sin? (though I could misremember things ere) This case is special, because primal sin isn't wrongdoing in regular way, but a natural state of the humanity. Yes, we suffer because of that. But without it we wouldn't even know that, as it is literally mater of possessing or not of the soul. Which is a sin, so in this sense we inherit the sin... our humanity from our parents.
@@TheRezro original sin was invented by Saint Augustine, who hated himself and made up original sin as a way of excusing his past transgressions as part of his nature as a human being.
@@scotcheggable He popularized the idea, but it is also present in the bible. So no, he did not invented it. Though the open debate is if it is transgression or the responsibility given to us with right to be here. That apparently is core debate between Satan and the God, with most prominent example in story of the Job.
@@TheRezro I was brought up in a family where the concept of “generational curses” came up a lot. The way that my mother and grandmother described them to us was one part biblical curse/original sin, one part how someone is raised, and one part genetics. So for example, addictions would be seen as a generational curse as they are passed down through a family by way of both socialization (addict parents raising kids who become addicts themselves) and the way addiction changed genetics and makes children of addicts more susceptible to addiction themselves.
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 You bring interesting truth about this subject.
Person A: YOU SHALL PAY THE SINS OF YOUR FATHER
Person B: My dad left me & hasn't paid child support for nearly 2 decades.
Person A: Oh...
Person A: You want to help me get revenge on him?
@@Sorain1 Person B: Sure
@@raylongoria3565 sins of the father, but it's exclusively focused on the avenger and the proxy seeking the guilty party
Snape: YOU'LL PAY FOR THE SINS OF YOUR FATHER!
Harry: My father's dead and I've been abused by my relatives for the entirety of my life. In a place I thought was safe, I've been relentlessly hunted, bullied, and near death more than a couple times.
No thanks to you.
Snape: ...
@@raylongoria3565 And then they kissed.
There's another angle to the biblical 'sins of the father' deal; that it's not an instruction to punish children for their parents crimes, but a prediction of how your failings affect your children. For example, Jacob's mother favors him over his brother Esau and helps Jacob to Esau's detriment, so when Jacob has kids, he also picks a favorite, Joseph, treats him differently than his brothers, who are so upset that they sell him into slavery. The first parent does something bad, and their children copy them, and eventually it turns to evil. So, less vengeful god and more cycle of abuse.
Or how all Humanity is punished for what Adam did?
@@hunterv9983 Do you think you could do better?
@@chuggedchugga6844
As in "Better First Man" or "Better God"?
@@hunterv9983 the former, better first man
@@chuggedchugga6844
Adam and Eve ate from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. They were told by God not to eat the fruit. They didn't *know* why they shouldn't, only that God said "No". One can't make a good decision without knowing *why* it's a negative decision.
Vengeance is like a grenade. When you throw it at somebody, you have to be okay with anyone and everyone near that person getting hurt. Also if you don't do it properly, It will blow up in your face.
Excellent analogy; I especially like it because you can infer that, just like a grenade, there exists a context in which it's the right option. You just need to make damn sure you correctly identify that context.
@@maximsavage In my opinion, there is never a context in which killing/throwing a grenade is the right option, because killing or hurting someone, is never a good or right option. Just because someone did something bad, doesn't mean it is right to do something bad to said person .
@@stianasmus3292 I think killing is only the right option, when it is directly done to stop the person from directly killing another person and only when there is no other option stopping them
@@stianasmus3292 isn't this just the trolley problem ? like if you can justify throwing a grenade if not throwing leads to more people getting hurt
@@stianasmus3292 Unfortunately, this is real life where there ARE people who WILL wish to do you and your loved ones harm. Hopefully you don't run into many, but if you do, protecting yourself and your loved ones is the priority and is justified. There's a reason self defense classes teach and use violence... because there comes a time in life where violence IS the justified and necessary answer.
There are instances using whatever weapon is nearby to kill is 100% justified and necessary. Is it 100% of the time? Nope, which is why I loathe it when young kids who are mentally undeveloped enough to understand the nuance of war/ violence making light of extremely violent films and games. It is not okay nor should it be commonplace to be violent towards each other; glorifying violence is not okay. But when it comes to protecting people, you need to be able and willing to match and defeat your adversary. Out thinking can win time, but without force (sometimes including grenades) those smarts aren't enough.
I sincerely hope you live a privileged enough life to not experience implementing violence, let alone the fear and healing needed for all parties involved. Even if you do it's better to be prepared. Even the kindest animals have teeth.
Now THIS is the "vengence is bad" trope I actually like. No weird "killing only that one specific person makes you exactly as bad as that same specific person who committed genocide" funky morals
To quote the IDW Transformers comics on that concept:
"Ratchet: No. If we kill him, we're no better than him. If we kill him, he wins.
First Aid: Yeah, except we are better than him and he doesn't win. He doesn't anything. He's dead. That's the point."
Basically "Should Batman kill the Joker?"
@@Hulkzilla0 I mean, not exactly, the point of Batman's no killing rule isn't that the Joker shouldn't be killed, it's that, as a Vigilante, Batman doesn't have the right to make that decision.
Feels kinda petty
@@zoro115-s6b And the counter argument is that every time he lets the Joker live, countless people are slaughtered in Joker's following crimes.
I'm not saying that Batman should kill, or that he should cross that very specific line, but should a rule never be broken? Even if breaking that rule, just that once, will save hundreds down the road?
One of the best revenge stories that actually briefly touches on the Sins of the Father is Kill Bill. After finishing off one of the people that tried to kill her, the titular character tells the child of the person that she just killed that if they want to, at some point in the future they could come after her and she wouldn't judge them for it.
Copperhead's daughter
It's certainly interesting. "I acknowledge the cycle of violence and I have absolutely no intention of breaking it. Tough luck."
"If you still feel raw about it, I'll be waiting." Read some really good fanfiction about Nikkia getting her revenge and it spiraling out of control..
Now I'm thinking of "A Boy Named Sue"
I prefer when the revenge stories actually either recognizce their hypocresy or decide to commit to the whole cycle of revenge and not just go for the kinda cliche "I have already killed a lot of people already, so I will just stop myself from achieving my revenge just when i have already debatably done way worse"
Either you commit fully to it, or never try to go through it in first place.
This trope is literally:
"You took everything from me.."
"I don't even know who you are!"
Not all the time, but so, so much.
But for me, it was Tuesday
"You are the worst person to curse this planet!"
"Sir i am attempting to babysit an orphan"
I mean in that specific case it was more that the character was talking to someone who hadn't yet had the chance to inflict pain, rather than someone who was actually innocent. Not only was Thanos about as far from innocent as you can get, past Thanos would have done exactly the same thing as future Thanos had done if given the chance. Though there is some relevance to the trope in the fact that a lot of Wanda's grief was self-inflicted from having tried and failed to stop Thanos from killing her lover by killing him herself, and actually getting a chance to believe that she'd succeeded for a few seconds before Thanos walked up and said, yeah I'm gonna resurrect your lover just so I can kill him myself, utterly undoing all of the reasons for the suffering you just went through in the process.
Wanda had less reason to be mad at Thanos than she had to be mad at herself for not only killing her lover, but for failing to make that death meaningful.
nnnno. No its not. Thanos killed Vision, not his grandma.
I'm shocked that the Netflix Castlevania anime wasn't brought up here. Vengeance is the primary motivation of nearly every single character in that show, and each has a different model and circumstance. Notably, Dracula tries to wipe out the human race because a bishop killed his wife for witchcraft, which is a perfect example of villainous revenge.
Isaac has the best arc in the show because of it imo
@@chanceofbliss8175 ikr! It was really cool to watch, probably my favorite part of the show.
@@peggedyourdad9560 agreed, top tier development
@@chanceofbliss8175 i can't wait to watch season 4. During season 3 I was always like : "I dont care about belmont and family, what happens to isaac". I loved him becoming a character on his own
If you liked that terrible hot mess, you should really play the games, or at least watch walkthroughs on TH-cam - much better exploration of vengeance vs justice since all of the different characters who have a motivation are usually pitted against a foil with a different revenge plot (Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness are especially explicit and the reason I’m still salty and will die mad about Netflix buying the rights and ruining any chance we might have to getting a better adaptation, but Portrait of Ruin, Symphony of the Night and the Sorrow Chronicles even dip into some of this subtext). Seriously - check the source material and join me in my love for the good stuff and hatred of the awful show.
Hera vs Children of Zeus
Can''t hurt Zeus, can hurt them... He's not absent - just too powerful/important.
Heracles intensifies
Zeus simply turned Hera into a Dirtbag entirely via the R word.
Hera knew Zeus would cheat on her. She didn't even want to be with Zeus she was kind of made to because Greek myth be strange and Hera is the goddess of marriage.
@@paleopotato736 True. Don'r think it made her more kindly disposed toward Zeus - or his children. Should have made her feel more for the rape victims abd innocent children - but like red said, it's more about rage than justice.
@@cracedkr5196 It doesn't justify her actions just explain them
The fact that this is a recurrent problem in real life is pretty telling of how easy it is to fall into this line of thought and escalate things to the point that they become all out wars
"Oi! A guy from YOUR country killed our arch-duke!"
"Oi! You cant bully bosnia, we're friends!"
"Oi! You cant bully austria, we're friends!"
"Oi! You cant bully belgium, we're friends!"
@@bloodyhell8201 Ah, good old WW1.
the pain
The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.
- Marcus Aurelius, Emperor, Philospher, Chad
Ohhh that's a good one. I will remember this.
the most shocking part about this he was able to do this while being constantly sick and not sick like I have a flu sick like bedridden for days
on the other hand, crucifing them isn't bad either
-Julis Caesar, Empereor, Chadest, do I have to keep going?
Based and SOLUS-pilled
Man u better not beat me when i bitch slap u
Inigo Montoya: "You know, It's very strange. I have been in the revenge business for so long, that now that it's over, I don't know what to do with the rest of my life."
"...Have you ever considered piracy? I think you'd make a wonderful Dread Pirate Roberts!"
@@michaelbryant3640 do you mean...
A SEQUEL!!!!
@Anime/Rock&Metalfan I know
Absolutely love the imagery of "they might already have some complexes about that" with Steven Universe playing in the background.
That's like the plot of SU
You say the lookalike version is refreshingly fictional, but when I was in high school I got sucker punched by someone from a different school and broke my nose because they mistook me for someone else they actually had beef with. They were at least nice enough to go "sorry mate, I thought you were someone else" when they realised the person currently bleeding on the floor in front of them had no idea what was going on
My condolences. I've had stuff like that happen more than once, but the worst case was at work one time. I got called into the office about a customer complaint and had no idea what my boss was talking about but apparently I complained about a customer and he overheard it even if it wasn't directed at him. Nothing came of it, just a warning. Then a week or so later this guy came through my line and started yelling how I should be ashamed of myself and why he did the thing he did that was complained about and his wife was looking embarrassed and nudging him as she said "Honey, I don't think that's the same girl." And suddenly everything made sense to me he was angry at one of my coworkers who just happened to have similar skin and hair color as me.
I'll admit I got mad every time I saw him after that because even if he wasn't angry in later trips (I can only assume his wife brought it to his attention after they left he made a mistake) but he never corrected my boss to my knowledge and all I could think when seeing him was how I didn't want to speak with him, he could have cost me my job.
@Tin Watchman nothing much, once I'd recovered from the shock enough to walk I went to the nurse's office and she gave me an ice pack to put on it
wow
@@QuantumJump451 I hope your nose is fine.
@@Samm815 thank you! Yes, it healed fine :)
Dio, this is basically Dio's grudge with the Joestar family.
Literally almost everything that happens up until Part 6 was either directly or indirectly caused by him
You mean including part 6 because Dio's followers are perpetually butthurt that Dio was beaten by Jotaro and go after his daughter for it
@@Roygasm You're right, might have worded that wrong
@@DXUnlimitedGamer yea it's part 7 where Dio's influence finally goes away and that's only because its set in a universe where Dio is a dinosaur
@@no-lifenoah7861 and even then Dio was an antagonist
@@no-lifenoah7861 I’ve never watched JoJo and this sentence both hilarious and utterly stupid.
I love it how Red goes into the deep and dark subconscious of humanity and in the background you just have a casual, happy-go-lucky theme playing.
Missed opportunity to play MGS5's "Sins of the Father" instrumental
"Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a father's sins, passed to his son."
Do not be afraid. I am peace; I am salvation.
Where that come from?
@@pedrorosa3300 Halo, it's something the Gravemind says.
@@oracle8535 Bungie really likes Salvation, don't they?
There is much talk... and I have listened. Through rock and metal and time.
"Right here Luke, watch this video and make sure you take lots of notes!!!"
"But also, be sure to kill your dad who I'm not going to tell you is your dad until Yoda and I have properly manipulated you."
Username checks out
Katara overcoming the urge to kill the man who killed her mother is just... Amazing. All this talk of vengeance just made me think of that. It's really the best moment in Avatar.
I really love that she still didn't forgive him. She just let go of her desire to kill him, realizing it wouldn't bring her mother back. It wouldn't undo her pain, but it allowed her to forgive Zuko. Who was truly sorry and truly trying to be better.
It probably helped that the guy already lived a pretty pathetic and joyless life.
This actually reminds me of Snape's relationship with Harry in Harry Potter. The only reason Snape doesn't like harry is because he's James' son and looks exactly like him. And for this crime that Harry literally can't help, Snape treats him like garbage. While Snape is justified in not liking James and is under no obligation to forgive the person that made his life hell for like, 7 years, directing that anger at Harry is completely unjustified and uncalled for.
Let's not forget that Snape by no means restricts his torment to Harry. Consider that Neville, a kid who had both his parents tortured to the point of insanity, had Snape as his greatest fear. Snape managed to be THAT shitty to his students. The dude was an all-around scumbag to an utterly unjustifiable degree.
He was quite a complex character. He hated Harry's father but loved his mother. He tried his best to protect him while also despising his out of spite for his old enemy.
@@zoro115-s6b or, and I haven't read the books in a long time, Neville is just easily scared of authority figures with exceedingly high expectations? Snape if I remember correctly was shown to be excessively strict towards griffindors, so naturally Neville, who constantly makes mistakes, would be terrified of the strict, cold faced professor who doesn't sugar coat his words and who he sees almost every single day of the year
@@iiiivvvv9986 Snape literally tried to poison Trevor- Neville's toad. If Hermione hadn't cheated to help Neville fix his potion... well, I think there's plenty of direct torment in that one instance alone. There are plenty more, though.
Neville is scared of people who hold power over him, but it's not of specific people usually. Snape, though? Yeesh.
If Snape wanted to be good, he would’ve took an anti-bullying stance
Red missed out a good opportunity to mention Scar from FMAB. He didn't just go after the State alchemists, he also targeted Ed - a literal child - even though Ed played no role in the Ishval War. His journey ends in him fighting and defeating the literal manifestation of Wrath, and reprimanding Mustang who was after the same vengeance as Scar.
The way his arc finished with him defeating the manifestation of the main part of his main flaw? Iconic
Definitely a very good end for this character.
The best part is that he didn’t really want to fight Wrath because he had more important things to do at the time.
Scar is an especially good example when you look at the manga and brotherhood. His very first kills were the Rockbells, who had just saved his life and weren't even alchemists. The scene where he meets Winry and realizes that he'd done to her exactly what had been done to him and he couldn't even justify it was a really well done turning point for both of them, especially when Winry acknowledges she has no intention of forgiving him but chooses to do better than him anyway.
You know. I never even thought of that final fight between Scar and Wraith in that way before now. Huh... That does add quite a bit of extra weight to that whole encounter symbolically.
My favorite version of this trope is Zuko’s relationship with his past and the legacy of the fire nation and Katara’s relationship with the fire nation, her mother’s killer, and therefore Zuko in Avatar: the Last Airbender. Especially how this plays out in The Southern Raiders. Because both of the are dealing with the ramifications of the different types of “sins of the father”, Katara taking on the role of the avenger.
Not just that, but Katara learns through her quests with Aang that the citizens of the fire nation aren’t some superpowered maniacal order, they’re just… people. People that are trying to live their lives and do their best. And people who also need her and Aang’s help (as we’ve seen in “The Painted Lady”)
She never executes her revenge on people who are undeserving. When Zuko offers to help her get closure, she may be still willing to use any means necessary to get her revenge, but only on those who deserve it, namely, the man who took Kaya from her
my personal favorite would be Ace from One Piece. Since we know the sins he obtained weren’t justified because his father was on the wrong side of the law but not on the wrong side of things like humanity and morality.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 Oh, yeah! Ace dealt with that shit his whole life. To the point where he hated Roger, even though they probably would’ve gotten along pretty well. Probably hurt Whitebeard a lot with how much Ace resented Roger, considering how close the two of them were.
@@joshuaatehortua7352 , One Piece is the only form of media where the Sins of the Father Troop was done perfectly, and outside of that there’s never been a form of media that does the Sins of the Father Troop as perfectly as One Piece does.
@@Grim_Sister It's a shame that Katara had to act high and mighty to cover up the fact that she knew stealing Appa from Aang to go on that journey with Zuko was wrong. "Tch, I knew you wouldn't understand". Then again, characters with certain inherent attributes are apparently free from accountability because "systemic oppression".
It would be funny to see some villain seeking out a person who wronged them, only to find out that not only is their target dead, but they were killed by the next logical choice on the villain's list (the child of their target) because the original target was an utter asshole to their kid.
"Granny Flash always said that the problem with 'an eye for an eye' is that in the end, everyone ends up blind."
Good show
"No they don't! One guy will have one eye left and can just hide behind a bush or something! Man, Ghandi was wrong!" - Billy Bickle, Seven Psychopaths
Paraphrasing here, been a while since I saw that film. The detail about hiding behind a bush always gave me a chuckle.
"Not Everyone. Just the bad guys." - Michael Garibaldi
Was gonna post this but you were too fast for me. Damn speedforce
Yeah, but only if some idiot starts it.
The sins of the father is something that often ties into sports rivalries as well, especailly the non-geographic ones. The players that may have got that rivalry started may be long gone, but the hatred between the teams and their selective fanbases is almost baked into their collective identities.
And it often only takes one slight against the other to kick it off
So like that war between Honduras and El Salvador. The war wasn’t exactly about the fútbol matches between the two, but it did increase the tensions between the two nations and ended up being a trigger/last straw.
@@Crimson_Valor bananas
Damn, I’m now imagining a reimagining of Romeo and Juliet set in the modern day, where the feud is just two families who support rival teams. (Also, no one dies in this version, they just go to the hospital for injuries from fights or stupid stunts. And the wedding scene is just one of the young lovers giving the other their dad’s old class ring.)
@@Tustin2121 I mean the modern day one already exists. It's not very good, but it has Leonardo deCaprio at least
Hell, the OSU-Michigan rivalry started because the two states went to war over a city. The government ruled that Ohio got the city, and Michigan got the UP.
"Then, it will happen this way: You make the kill; but you find that your pain doesn't die with [the man who murdered your family]. So you go off into the night to find another face... and another... and another... until vengeance has become your whole life. And you won't know why."
-- Batman Forever
That line, and Jim Carrey's Riddler, were easily the best parts of that movie.
then you dress up as a giant bat and haunt the night for the rest of your life
@@matthewmuir8884I’d add one more bit to great things in that movie: “You see I’m both Bruce Wayne and Batman. Not because I have to be. But because I choose to be.” I love the idea of a Bruce who conquers his demons and reaches a point where he doesn’t need to be Batman, but chooses to remain as him because Batman is an important force for good.
@@magnusprime962 That was a good line and concept as well. _Batman Forever_ had all the ingredients for a great Batman film, and I would like to see a Batman film try again at some of those ideas: Batman reaching a point where he doesn't need to be Batman but keeps being Batman by choice as you said, and I'd like to see another attempt at Robin (The Dark Knight Rises doesn't count).
@@matthewmuir8884 hope Brave and the Bold will do that.
"The only thing I ever found that brought closure is when everyone's finally in the ground." -Caduceus Clay
Taliesin is a fucking genius
I feel like it's somewhat related to the phrase "Let the dead bury the dead" in a way
Funny that is said from a character in a world where ghosts, resurrection and necromancy is a thing...
Critters on an OSP video, now that's just perfect. And yeah, Taliesin is really flexing that high-wisdom Caduceus, and I love it.
don't know the guy but he sounds based
Concept: Character A is horribly wronged by Character B. A goes to seek vengeance on B who is with child character C who ends up abandoned by B and probably homeless after B flees the scene in typical villain fashion. What follows is a road-trip of teeth clenched teamwork and found family.
Tangled the Series
Netflix Castlevania
Do it mate. That sounds cool.
cannon busters
@@elytraman1809 Criminally underrated show. Doubt it will ever happen, but I hold out hope we might one day see a season 2.
Because it was not mentioned in this episode jet: Avatar actually had an episode concerning the sins of the father: in Chapter Eleven: The Great Divide there are two tribes that hated each other for centruies. So, Spoiler i guess, Aang resolves the situation by making up a complety harmless version of the inciting incident. And then everyone is kinda: okay no more reason to hate each other i guess, lets get along instead. And they do. And it is hillarius to me.
Also Avatar is soo good you guys.
God, that episode was so boring!
People are upset that Aang told a lie. But I'm like "jeez, these tribes were fully willing to slaugher each other over nothing. This lie saved lifes and ended a stupid feud."
Hey, red! Trope talk suggestion for you; "The noodle incident" or "Noodle incidents" are a literary tool that gives more literary weight to an event or mcguffin than a description would, mostly by context and the reader's imagination.
Named because of a short series of Calvin and Hobbes comics wherein everyone at school gives the eternally frustrated 6-year-old grief about something he did in the past that is now known only as "The noodle incident." It is hinted at vaguely many times, but the writer ultimately leaves it up to your imagination; which is a strength because whatever the audience dreams up will be way more literarily impactful (in this case funny) than anything he could write down. And that's not even the only time that comic uses a noodle incident, see, there's this kids book calvin always wants read called "Hampster Hewwy and the Gooey Kablooey" and Now I'm ranting.
Another instance this trope is used is in an S.C.P. story wherein a certain slime MUST NEVER come into contact with a human corpse. Why? That's classified. A foundation researcher files the suggestion to test the slime on a human corpse because it's never listed what happens, only that it is a V E R Y bad idea, and the researcher is curious. He gets demoted and heavily scolded by an O-5, who states "Just don't."
A "Noodle Incident" is a rare trope that involves telling the audience that something exists or happened, but not telling them what it was, in order to give the plot point more narrative weight than a description would give it, partly because of the imaginations of the audience. It is a great trope that I think you should cover.
Effectively the "mystery box".
It's the same concept, though the "noodles accident" seems like a more spesific type of such a thing
So it's like the Llama incident from Milo Murphy's Law. Well, until it was actually explained to us. :D
@@RasmusVJS never read it, but probably yes. Was it only hinted at and never explained for most of its relevancy?
@@justsomejerseydevilwithint4606 It's a cartoon series, not a book. But yes, for half of the first season, things would be explained by "because of the Llama incident," but without ever explaining the context.
@@RasmusVJS then yeah, that's a noodle incident.
The entire plot for first three seasons of “The Dragon Prince” is based on breaking the cycle of bearing the sins of the forefathers. It’s actually blatantly said by Callum in one of the first episodes that revenge creates an endless and pointless cycle that accomplishes nothing. It’s such a great show, 10/10.
I also like that the show doesn't have any of those "always forgive everyone for everything, no matter what" busted morals. It doesn't tell us we need to forgive Viren, because Viren is just an awful person. Instead it's about breaking the cycle by not punishing people for what their parents did, and standing up to the people trying to perpetuate it for their own gain.
@@zoro115-s6b 100% agreed. That show is such amazing inspiration, I can’t wait for the new seasons!
Except its unrealistic(despite show trying to not be black and white). How am I supposed to believe that dragons and elves are suddenly not racist towards humanity because this one human boy returned this one dragon baby(even if its a prince).
@@DeathKitta I'm pretty sure that the later seasons would address that, after all we only saw a few types of elves and only two dragons (minus the flashback of the dragon king and the other dragons during the fight with the monster soldiers) who we can clearly see their perspective on humans (one of whom still hates humans). There will definitely be some who still hold deep grudges.
@@DeathKitta It is a fantasy cartoon, so idk if they’re banking that hard into realism, haha! If I was a writer for the show, I would probably write the next season to show there is still severe division between the magical races despite the dragon prince being returned, but I guess we’ll have to see how they handle the next season! We haven’t really gotten a chance to see the widespread effect of outcome of the dragon princes’s returns. But yeah! Excited all the same! 👌
Surprised you didn’t bring up the real world version of this trope-the Hatfields and the McCoys. I don’t think they remember what started that family feud either, but it killed their family members left and right. There was even a Romeo and Juliet kind of moment between two of true younger members.
i believe it had to do with the civil war - with the ancestor of one group being killed in fight caused over him fighting for the union on his return
Wait i thought this was only a thing in mlp
@@illustrate5846 That episode was based on the real world (and VERY bloody) feud.
@@chriss780 I think the moment you mentioned with the civil war matter i think both families were in the fight with the confederacy till things went wrong in there area of the war and got out of there.
Grays and Braithwaites who?
"Pain and suffering are a kind of currency passed from hand to hand until they reach someone who receives them but does not pass them on." ~ Simone Weil
"Just so you know I only hit you, cause of burning hatred for your father" ~ Vegeta Abridged
You forgot the deadpan "Take that." 😂
I always loved the wink and nudge "Kill Bill" has to this. When the Bride kills Vernita and Vernita's daughter sees the Bride standing over her mother's body just afterward, the Bride acknowledges that, although she had hoped to leave the child out of this and minimize collateral damage, she has literally no defense if the daughter later chooses to seek revenge on her for the death of her mother. The resigned reaction of "I really can't blame you if you want to do the same to me one day," coupled with the fact that, at that point in the story, the Bride believes her own child paid the ultimate price for her "sins" always really stuck with me.
11:15 Red: "Pretty much the atypical example of this is-"
Me: "The Hatfield and the McCoy."
Red: "Romeo and Juliet."
Me: "Ooooohhhhh yeeeeeeaaaaaaah. I keep forgetting that whole thing was warring families and not _just_ two dumbs teens whose parents didn't want them to be together."
Thanks for the video Red.
I thought of them too
That was exactly what I thought lol!
Me too!
That was my first thought as well.
“The Montague's stole our lunch money!”
“Yeah, but you broke our snow globe!”
“Guys, it’s been two hundred years, cut it out.”
NO!”
I'm surprised that The Dragon Prince didn't get mentioned in the latter part of the video. The entire plot for the first three seasons is about breaking the cycle of vengeance.
Yeah she used tlou 2 for that. Tlou2 is a perfect example of how NOT to do a cycle of violence story.
I'm honestly surprised that she didn't use Scar from FMA: Brotherhood for the cycle of revenge part, particularly the scene where Winry finds out that Scar killed her parents and Scar, at the sight of Winry, realizes what the monk was trying to warn him about when he said, "Vengeance will only bring more vengeance".
Yeah, and Rayla even has the revenge-free variant going on where she feels personally responsible for fixing her parents' mistakes.
My favorite version of this is "My parent did a bad thing so now **I** have to make it better", You know the Michael Afton/Audrey Drew/Steven Universe style protagonist, it's also pretty common among edgy hot demon princes with redemption arcs who's father is the main antagonist
as a writer of an edgy (?) hot (??) demon prince whose father is a (minor) antagonist, i feel very targeted
@@ayyymacaroni It's just a character archetype dude, don't worry about it. Just make sure your version of it stands out and is handled well.
9:08 I really appreciate you including this excerpt from MLK's speech showing that racism isn't Biblical and that Christians aren't heartless racists, thank you Red 🙏
I was SO happy to see that she did that.
Just about everything is biblical, that's what happens when you have multiple writers, things go against one another
Most of today's racism stems from the political elite and woke people. What do you call a person who is literally racist towards all of humanity? The Democrats for example are racist towards Caucasians and literally treat other ethnicities as mere pawns and won't hesitate to use racial slurs towards anyone. Nothing justifies the anti-human sentiment that these corrupt politicians have towards humans in general.
@@zenvariety9383 im sorry "most"? someone needs to get off the net for a while & live in the actual world instead of getting their "life experience" from fox n facebook
voila
"But the bible said this!"
'Yes.. The bible did... And the oposite...
Welcome to religion amigo, you can litteraly choose what to believe because 2 millenia means everything has been written down once... Except transhumanism... That hasnt been added (yet).'
Did everyone hear about Kentaro Miura, the Berserk author? I haven't watched the video yet, but yet again I was reminded of it. R.I.P. EDIT: I thought the video may of had trope examples that could of applied to Berserk, so sorry if this comment seemed random.
WARNING I am the unprettiest human YTer worldwide. Take the hint, dear ora
Damnit man. Let it be for a little while. I still feel very raw about it right now.
What video?
RIP
I came here to escape! Why you make me cry here too? 😭
This episode made me realize I've never really felt pervasive, furious anger. Anything vaguely similar is gone after 10 minutes. And its not like I haven't had a reason to have this anger, I could totally justify being angry forever at a certain person who may or may not have been an immensely abusive significant other... but I dont feel it. That anger isn't there and it never has been. Its different than forgiveness, its more just... no desire for revenge, leaving the only path to be one of healing and self-improvement.
Anyway, that's why I've always found revenge arcs strange. You'd think the anger would've subsided after any decent amount of time.
Well, that may be your strength that not everyone shares
(Rant warning I guess)
For example, me: I’m stuck with my now over-kindled spite against the Christian God, not that I completely believe he exists, but some types of hate can’t die like that in some people. I always try to act kind and open minded towards people, and it definitely becomes harder for me to do when they choose to associate themselves with “him”
Hate can be *very* addictive if kindled in the wrong ways, and I struggle almost every day with not letting a concept from a toxic book-club overtake the philosophy that keeps me from lashing out at them “an eye for an eye, turns the world blind” I’ll stoop to THEIR level of weaponized dogma if I strike back for the hurt it’s dealt me. This hate will likely follow me to the grave no matter what happens, but because of my lack of violence, I’ve been able to find mutual and respectful love for a few people in my life, something id never get if I let this get the better of me
@@thevoiceinyourhead7215 Yeah, that’s pretty fair. I should say, while I understand that sort of anger is normal for some, I more mean it’s weird for me because in my brain, it seems natural to forgive by the point 20 years or whatever had past. But I phrased it in second person, which I definitely shouldn’tve lol. Sorry about that.
I’d argue it’s not a strength to forgive quickly and easily though. That aforementioned abuse was predicated on the fact that I did forgive so easily. There’s an idea middle ground that I’m certainly not within.
Don’t worry about the rant though, you’re all good. I hope you can find your happy balance of righteous anger and allowing yourself to forgive. I do know how righteous anger can hurt the person wielding it… so sometimes it’s not about forgiving wrongs, but letting go of the anger spawned by the wrongs for your own sake. That’s the way I’ve described my forgiveness to my abuser, not as true forgiveness but as letting go of the anger. I don’t think the person deserve forgiveness, but I deserve peace of mind.
I’m sorry if that doesn’t really apply to what you’re going through.
@@Isometrix116 that too, is quite fair, and thanks for clarifying btw.
anger, much like most of what makes us human or even animal, stems from a reaction of detected "wrongs" ether that be a transgression on an internally decided ruleset, or that a third party is causing dismay of some kind, I believe that's what you mean by righteous anger? that, but in it's pure and quick take (and yes, the reason why I'm boiling it down is because I'm not good with emotions as a basic concept), such a thing is definitely a strength, be it balanced correctly,
I suppose both our situations were and likely (albeit us being aware of them now, so we can learn and better ourselves respectively) still is a weakness of ours
I, with my inability to forgive a concept for the hurtful deeds done by people who associate with it
and you, your system not being/feeling as decisively as you may have wanted it to, that is, if I understand what you've written correctly
but hey, as I said, sounds like we're both working on it currently. I hear making small, easy to fullfill promises to yourself can help in allot of stuff similar to that
I completely agree, I have always had a long fuse and a near- inability to really hold a grudge. I generally am happy with this, as I vehemently dislike being angry. I have been lucky enough to never have been majorly taken advantage of, but I see that weakness. I really don't know how to properly take the middle road, other than not easily attaching myself to people. That's not a perfect solution, though. Just try to remember how people have acted, I suppose. Forgive, but don't forget or something? I really don't know. I'm still trying to figure this existing stuff out. I really just saw someone saying something I entirely relate with. Sorry I just restated the whole little conversation there...
Imagine a story where for a long time, you follow the exploits of a generally heroic-seeming character, who happens to also be on a vengeance quest.
However, upon reaching the end of their quest, with characters B and C in front of them, they _don't_ do the heroic thing, and instead kill/maim/hurt/do whatever to the two other characters.
From then on, you observe the slow degradation of the kinda heroic character's morality as he/she chooses to perform various dubious acts under the banner of "it's for a greater good".
All subsequent stories revolve around _actual_ heroes coming to take out the original guy, though with the first couple actually failing.
I have been talking about that with a friend
The Character in question was in dubious state of mind (PSTD ando Survivor guilt), due to a mess up with chemical he went to be with a girl and that girl got pregnant, so he tried to be a good father, but he has taken a very amoral and objetive view of life to the point that he acquired a vast amount of theorical knowledge, but barely any emotional, that in combination with conflicts that required his set of skills make a kind of barrier between him and his son
Many of those conflicts didnt end with diplomacy, the people in charge really tried to make it the least damagin way, but in many cases they told him "hey, go nuts and solve it" so he used the most dramatical and psicológical methods in order to in his words "obtain victory at all costs" wich generally resulted in people being afraid of him and his "friends" shunning him and talking bad, but he thinked it was a good way of solving things so more people don't get hurt
Fastfoward, his son hated him cuz he found the truth (the father lie all the time saying " i just rescue people), then went away as far as possible of the dad
The dad still thinked it was good yo have lied due to the reaction of his son, still thinked it was a good idea to torture people so they don't go on damagin other people, he thinked it was good to burn a species if that prevented the extintion of other species, and even though all people that he knew told him that he was insane, he still believe himself a heroe going against all odds
A desilusión of his twisted, hurt and grietfull mind
Some people have tried to take him down, he doenst get upset by it, but rather happy that he isnt forgotten, he uses that as a oportunity to pass his experiences and wisdom to other so they are prepared to fight the same things he has fought
Ya know actually that is a the premise of a webtoon I’m reading called FFF - Class Trashero, where the same things happen as well!
I'm sure there's a Batman comic out there that runs exactly like that
And don't forget the classic: Oh? Your parents are dead? Well they owed me and these other *fine* men a lot of money, get working.
Chainsaw man, who went on to become a wage slave
This is just how real life debt works too.
@@yoursonisold8743 Ah. Capitalism!
Can you do a trope talk on the martyr/scapegoat? The character who does bad on purpose for some reason usually to make others seem heroic or the character who accepts a punishment so others don’t have too suffer
Corollary request to include characters who die bad but get "redeemed in death". One of my least favorite tropes.
@@aaronstreitenberger6012 Harvey Dent is at the top of the list here. Also interesting to note that since this iteration also represented a 50/50 choice made by Batman and GCPD and really built up his origin story better than "mobsters threw acid on a DA who also had DID hidden under the surface."
@@aaronstreitenberger6012 redemption via death is literally one of my least favorite tropes ever. On its own it’s like... okay. But I get irrationally angry when I see people be like “oh they apologized then died so they’re good”😑
@@beccag2758 I have found that it's usually used as an excuse to justify their prior behavior. It's endemic in a lot of different media, from Movies to Comics to Video Games to DnD streaming shows.
@@beccag2758 because you wanted them to suffer or because you wanted them to be redeemed?
“Vengeance only leads to a cycle of further vengeance” -Gargoyles
Hence why Xanatos was the most successful villain in the series. He always held the belief that "Revenge is a sucker's game".
@@legomaniac213 Yep. A recurring theme with many of Greg Weisman’s villains.
Huh, I actually made it to a video the minute it comes out. On a side note I really do enjoy your trope videos, they help me understand some of the more common tropes in writing and your videos are one of my go to videos for learning to write. And I want to thank you for being so talented. A lot of your videos have helped me write my books. Again thank you and have an amazing day UwU
Edit: Wow, I had no idea I’d get 109 likes for this comment. Thank all of you so much. I appreciate it ^^
Beau: sometimes justice (vengeance) brings closure
Cadeucus: the only thing I find that brings closure is when everyone is finally in the ground
-Critical Role- 2x98
This scene always gets me in terms of revenge tropes.
1:00 Y'know, I'd like to see a "Sins of the Father" story where the villain doesn't even try to justify their actions morally, like:
Hero: No you can't kill [innocent person] just because their dad did bad things to you, it is immoral.
Villain: You think I don't know that.
Hero: If you do that, you'll be just as bad as him!
Villain: I DO NOT CARE!
This was a nice twist in Die Hard 3.
At first it seems that Simon Gruber wants to take vengance on John MaClain because he killed his younger brother Hans Gruber. But in the end, it turns out that Simon never gave a fuck about Hans and the whole "vengeance plot" was just a smoke screen so he could rob all those banks.
My friend has a cliche he calls "Same name, different face" where the writer will give a character a name like "Alucard" to cheat a character instruction because in your mind you know that the name "Alucard" is synonymous with a Half/Full Vampire who kills other Vampire.
There are other examples of this, but I have season 4 of Castlevania on the brain rn
Wukong
@@serpentzero5544 What does that have to do with Journey to the West?
@@cedartheyeah.justyeah.3967 It's an example
@@chinsaw2727 Could you explain?
@@cedartheyeah.justyeah.3967 It's like how naming someone Sun, or Son or Wukong is basically shorthand for "this guy is gonna be like Sun Wukong from Journey to the West". The best example is Son Goku from DB but there's also Sun Wukong from RWBY.
It's more a meaningful name type thing where instead of one like "butcher" or "Dragon", they name them after a different person to try to make you associate the new character with an older, more familiar one to inform you of the new character's deal.
As a real world example, someone once tried to explain to me how I, as a German, am responsible for the atrocities committed during the Holocaust. Now, granted, I actually do have ancestors who were part of the SS. BUT I also LOST relatives on the other side of the family to the Nazis and their crimes. Basically, I have as much perpetrator blood in my veins as I have victim blood. So I asked them: "So whose vengeance shall I expect? My own? Whom shall I take vengeance against? Myself?"
I have immense respect for German society for the way y'all handle the memories of the Holocaust.
Truly something others could learn from *side eyes Japan and Turkey*
This reminded me of when Kurapika killed Uvogin and how everyone everyone in the Phantom Troupe was devastated because of it. And later, when Gon confronted Nobunaga for being an hypocrite for mourning his friend, as it was hypocritical because he and the troupe assassin innocent people without caring about all the people they're hurting in the process.
Using HxH as another example, we have when Gon got revenge on Neferpitou and not only hurt himself but was determined to go as hard to hurt Komugi, an innocent woman who didn't do anything, just so he could get his revenge.
It's interesting because both cases are actually framed in a bad light.
Kurapika's desire for revenge keeps getting him in dangerous situations and his new abilities end up causing him to keep losing time of his life.
Gon loses his nen and his arc in Chimera Ant Arc is known to be his "corruption arc" He also ends up emotionally hurting Killua, his best friend.
Yeah, Togashi does a very good job of this - the characters are practically superhuman in their abilities and skills but in terms of their personal traits they are very human.
On the contrary, Kurapika is personally my favorite character because he was incredibly focused and determined to kill the Troupe and only hesitated when he was about to kill Uvogin - he tells Uvogin how much he is revolted by the act of cruelly torturing his enemies and the prospect of killing a human and is dumbfounded by how the Phantom Troupe is able to do it so heartlessly. No matter how much he hates the troupe, it hurts his soul to commit a heinous act.
As for the Gon case - it's a bit complicated. He dislikes "bad" characters who actually had the choice to be good. For him, it's insane that characters like Neferpitou or the PT members have the emotional intelligence to be vulnerable and understand love, sorrow and pain but at the same time are able to heartlessly commit genocide. He does not hold back in his judgement or cruelty to those characters because he knows that they of all people should understand the moral repercussions of their actions - his "Enhancer" personality means that he has a very simplified view of people's natures.
Gon can't have a corruption arc because he's been kinda fucked up from the beginning. Who Gon is during that arc is who he's always been, it's just taken away his cheery facade. He thinks it's cool that his best friend's family is all assassins. In the first arc, he sets up a situation where he either wins a moral victory (not even an actual victory) or he just dies outright. He understands how much his father becoming a hunter hurt everybody around him, then decides that must mean being a hunter is worth leaving your family behind, so he does the same thing as his father. All of this is in the first arc subtly showing how just not-right he is beneath his cheeriness. Also, pairing him with Killua, who is significantly more outwardly-dark, makes Gon seem normal by comparison.
The script of this entire video is the response you give when someone asks you to describe a color without saying it's name but the color is Sasuke.
Lmfao that’s exactly what it is
‘Generational Blood-Feud’: I think this is the moment where Scotland would say hello...
And Corsica.
And Albania.
And Caucas Mountains.
7:30 to quote Steven: "I can't believe my mom did that to you. Actually, no... I can totally believe it."
Depardieu...my favorite count of Monte Christo. The scene of him screaming at God in a chapel is blood chilling.
Huzzah, a Count of Monte Cristo comment at last. Awesome!
Just did a paper in a class on Buddhism on breaking down cycles of anger and vengeance. This trope talk reminds me why I believe forgiveness is crucial in our lives.
One of my favorite variations of this trope is when it's used to redeem a hero-turned-villain. For example, B does something horrible to A, who goes from being generally good or even heroic to being so consumed by their quest for revenge that they start to stray into a gradual path of villainy, trading more and more of their morals because it'll get them closer to reaching B. When A gets there though, B is dead or long gone, leaving descendant C. At first, A absolutely wants to take their anger out on C, but plot happens and they get put into a situation where they learn more stuff about C and realize that B was super awful to them too, and instead of seeing C as an object for revenge, A instead sees them now as a kindred. A sees their old self in C. A then decides they not only won't hurt C for B's crimes, but also make sure C turns out healthier and happier than them. A becomes C's guardian and it's through that that A slowly recovers from the trauma B left on them and turns their back on the morally grey lifestyle they embraced during the revenge quest.
"People can't exact vengeance on you if you kill everyone first" - Eren Yeager
Someone was away from the village, and comes back to find the corpses after you have left. They recognize your handiwork, and swear vengeance.
@@KarasuInaiga Eren Yeager welcomes all with open arms, and bloody hands.
He understand your wish for vengeance and would happily revoke it and strip you away from your goals to further his.
@@KarasuInaiga That doesn't cover the definition of everyone, then, does it? :P
Insert editted version of that Leon (1994) meme;
1. Kill everyone.
2. What do you mean... Everyone?
1. EV-ERY-ONE!!!
@@danghostman2814 여러분!!!
Honestly, I was a little surprised she didn't mention the revelations of AoT Season 3. Then again, that would be complicated and probably add another 5 or 10 minutes to the video's runtime.
The entire series of Attack on Titan definitely plays hard on the sins of the father, especially the passive version in regards to both the Eldians and Marlayan people. All in a pretty messed up way.
Yes all up until that unfortunate horrible ending that recons that entire idea
@@Roc4297shut
The ending was good
I just realized that Milo Murphy's Law is just a kid friendly version of the karmic justice version of this trope.
There's no "original crime" in that case. Moreso a karmic "fuck you for literally no reason, love, the universe"
You should make a trope talk on ''I love but hate you at the same'' and ''Forbidden love''
oh absolutely. that’s my favorite romance trope
see: kismesitude
exactly my cup of tea
so... enemies to lovers?
"Forbidden Love," in other words, Warriors Cats.
“N-No! Pink diamond made up for all the bad stuff as rose quartz!!!”
Like bismuth? like repeatedly lying to her friends? Like being as cryptic and unhelpful as inhumanily possible? like letting her army get corrupted? Like condemning an entire generation of rose quartz’s to die because she hid among them? Like ordering her own lieutenant to lie and perpetuate her son’s anguish? Like still leaving spinel there in the garden? Like fostering an entire legion of mortal enemies for her son to deal with? Like lusting after Greg only to be as much of a deadbeat as possible and leave Steven’s only human parent as a homeless, emotionally broken husk?
Rose didn't let her army get corrupted she could only protect her closest allies, she also had no idea of what would happen to the other Rose Quartz nor that Steven would have to face the diamonds as by the time she met Greg and had Steven it had been thousands of years since the Diamonds left and she assumed they had thought she was dead.
uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh
Yes, because Rose totally planned out everything that would happen to her kid and friends after she reformed to make Steven. Totally knew Homeworld was coming back, totally knew about the Cluster, totally knew about mortal enemies that would crop up after her.
Like she's an antagonist, but not a villain. Thats what makes her so interesting. If you want a character that is actually lowkey irredeemable, look at Princess Bubblegum.
I agree that Rose wasn't the perfect character but she's not the villain everyone makes her out to be. If her character growth was shown normally, instead of in reverse, people would be praising the writers on how well developed her character is. A lot of other characters with similar arcs are praised by people, like Catra from She-Ra. Rose wasn't innocent but a lot of the things she mentioned were not directly her mistake.
@@slightlyuncomfortable But that's the biggest problem with Rose. She didn't think of the future.
Ofc, she can't live her life in fear or worry of what her family might do, but it seems like she didn't try to do anything at all for the possibility. Rose lived in ignorance by thinking the battle is over. She didn't understand her enemy enough and left far too many wounds open before leaving. Both as Pink Diamond and Rose.
There was no possibility that the diamonds, with all the time in the world, wouldn't get their stuff together and go for another battle. They're leaders, dictators, and killers.
Rose showed a large lack of foresight by neglecting the possibility. She could've left Steven with some info of her past, maybe tell him about the truth? He doesn't need to find out immediately, just give that info to Pearl and tell her to be truly honest to her son if the time comes.
With a history like hers, the idea of keeping it all a secret was stupid from the moment she thought of it. It literally took 14 years of her being truly gone for it to fall apart.
Imo, she'd be a lot more interesting if she thought some more things through before she left. It doesn't need to be perfect, but enough to make her a better character.
In terms of characters like Spinel? That goes back to Pink Diamond not finishing her business as a Diamond.
Reminds me of the "91 days" anime that uses this trope as its main plot as well as throughout the series.
And it’s a gangster story in the middle of Prohibition America.
*chefs kiss* love it
So Eula showed up in Genshin impact this week and Red makes a "Sins of the Father" episode?
Interesting
was thinking the same thing
BBC's Merlin literally has an episode titled "The Sins of the Father" we love tropes in this house
Dude, I literally just came up with a story structure around this trope, and now I get a trope talk for it...
Someone's gonna write a good revenge story toda~y!
Me:what a beautiful day, ðe flowers are singing
Ðe flowers: ðe sins of our forefaðers bind us to ðe dirt
How are you able to type the Thorn??
*"Forefapers"*
@@shr1mpsush1
Nope, it still says forefathers. The Thorn letter denotes the "Th" sound
@@shr1mpsush1
Granted he ought to have used Eth instead of Thorn for the middle and ends of words. Not to be pendantic about it
@@ericward8459 I think it’s in the Icelandic keyboard iirc
I am thinking of two, Ancient Mythic Greek revenge plots:
1. The Iliad, "Oh, Muses, help me to sing of the rage of Achilles!"
2. The Oresteia. The whole plot is about the Furies seeking revenge of Orestes for killing his Mother.
Sins of the father that reminds me of that scene on Beowulf. After that dragon burned that village to the ground.
9:00 what's ironic about this is that in all likelyhood, dark skin was around first, and got lighter later on.
Next you'll tell me the whole world wasnt drowned in a flood!
That's the real problem with bigotry. More often than not, the hate comes first, and it gets justified after the fact.
What I would like to see: your ancestor fought the greatest hero of your time, but you didn’t know this until said hero notices you and thinks that the villain has returned to finish what they started, as the hero isn’t that smart. He attacks you, trying to stop you from villainy, but accidentally creates a new villain for him. You.
What? Heroes cant be wrong. What kind of interesting, complex fantasy do you live in?
Imagine turning to villainy just because some dude attacked you.
@@zoro115-s6b I think it’s less that the victim became evil, and more that the victim starts opposing the hero, because the hero assaulted him.
@@zoro115-s6b Depends on how far the "hero" takes it. If you're labeled as the villain with no recourse to prove your own innocence, and crimes committed against you in the name of justice, you might end up being forced into that role. Perhaps out of spite or simply to survive. It's also possible that you're the good villain fighting the evil hero.
@@darwinxavier3516 In that case the 'hero' isn't really a hero, they're at best a villain with good PR.
Im very thankful this video came out so close to "Cruella" coming out in theatres. I'm tired of people acting like the movie painted her as an innocent misunderstood hero JUST because the target of her vengeance was MORE EVIL.
I know the movie isnt perfect, but you cant argue that she is still undeniably a "villain" regardless of wether she did or did not skin the dogs (but the movie would certainly be better if she DID)
I didn't actually see the movie but was excited for it. And not because I thought it was going to make Cruella a not-actually-a-villain, but because I was curious about her origin. In the original 101 Dalmatians we just got that she's a high society fashion mogul who is obsessed with the cutting edge of fashion, morality be damned. I wanted to know how she got there.
Also, I low-key was eager to see more of Jasper and Horace. Good henchman make the villain after all.
I did see the movie, and I regretted every moment of it, couple hours I'll never get back
I actually really liked the movie and i think in it cruella was more cruel than evil, in the sense of how the last part of the movie is a plan for revenge without killing or anything like that, but still cruel nonetheless
I think that's because the movie never shows any meaningful consequences to her criminal activities. Nobody except "bad people" get hurt. Imagine if Breaking Bad never showed Jesse's slow descent or Walter's moral degeneration as the show went on. You'd get a show about how making drugs is awesome and how killing people is totally acceptable within certain circumstances.
I mean, it's shown in the cartoon i guess, she did descend into plain villainy
Naruto is also rife with this trope. The whole jinchūriki issue (Naruto’s whole struggle was centered around it), the fustercluck that is the Uchiha curse, Kakashi’s insecurities stemming from his family history (quite literally), the Hyūga clan’s minor feud between Hizashi and Hiashi, even Boruto’s daddy issues - the list goes on.
Now I get the Khornate: "Khorne doesn't care from were blood comes, only that it flows".
The only minor problem I see with breaking the cycle of vengeance thing, and this comes from someone who believes that just because you are hurt doesn't mean you can hurt others, is that, in some circumstances, giving up on vengeance isn't a sign of maturity and responsibility, but rather a sign of harmlessness, that others can hurt you without consequences. While it is obvious that if character B caused harm character C doesn't deserve harm, character C however could try to help the person his ancestor hurt, or at least try to compensate, especially, if character A's moral decision just caused other immoral characters to exploit it.
*Sith Emperor:* The is no Justice there is only Revenge.
No not Palpatine, I'm talking about VItiate (aka Tenebrae aka Valkorion) from Star Wars the Old Republic
Oh you mean Revan's abuser.
Why didn’t you say that to begin with instead of writing a separate phrase explaining who “Sith Emperor” is
He has a point.
This entire trope could be called "Pink Diamond is an asshole"
LOL
Pink Diamond did nothing wrong
@@rommdan2716 actually all of the Diamonds are fucked up
@@rommdan2716 You are trying to start something, are you?
@@dumbledoratheexplorer1252 facts
Never woulda thought we'd get a Trope Talk that's this relevant to current events
Likewise. The timing is remarkable.
@@hilarymajor3983 *Observes the Israel vs Palestine conflict and reflecting on how the Sins of the Father relates to the conflict*
Yep, no better time than now I guess...
Gon is an excellent example of a hero becoming basically a villain from allowing their dark impulse for revenge thrive in their heart.
In my story, this guy's wife and kid are killed by this one guy after he lost his arm trying to stop them. So, he went out and eventually killed the guy. However, this is what they wanted because the person had figured out a way to come back to life, and because everone thought he'd been killed, he was then able to grow in power without anyone noticing. And on top of that, my character hasn't let go of the anger, he's just gotten better at covering it up.
Somehow story of Junko from Touhou is this trope in pure form with additional twist about "sin of a father" on top lol. It's interesting I never would think about this connection before
Junko’s story is a “Sins of the Father” story in its purest form.
she's literally so consumed by vengeance that that is all that is left of her; she's an embodiement of that hatred and little else
Yep!
IRL Sins of the Father family feud: the troubles. Just everything to do with the troubles
This reminds me of the old saying “When you go on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.”
"What a stupid quote. I'm killing way more than two people, idiot."
“What?”
Hell: *kills a rabbit*
Doom guy: *anger filled revenge and proceeds to load shotgun with malicious intent*
Correction: religious intent.
Jonah Hex is kinda the opposite of the vengeance tropes. Despite life crapping all over him her only seeks justice. A large part of his stories are about how damn hard that can be to achieve.
My favorite moment comes from Batman the animated series, “it ain’t about the money, it’s about justice!”
Your willingness to dip your toes into real-world examples in a balanced way is consistently a point of admiration that I have for you.
I once used this trope as part of a name for an essay on Antigone
Revenge plots are also great for making your audience feel a character's struggle, especially if the target is a character designed for the audience to hate.
That bit about Noah's son being cursed for seeing his father in a drunken state, which led to that one verse in the Bible that could justify slavery is often ignored by historians and Christians alike. Now that is thorough...
That one’s pretty BS since everyone in the Old Testament and at least a sizable portion for people in the New Testament would’ve been black or brown.
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527 True, still in Western Europe Jesus became white with red, blond or brown hair. Really think about that. Oh the implications...
@@thelittleredhairedgirlfrom6527
Peanuts!
...Ahem, I mean. We can make a decent guess at what they looked like - any Israeli/Hebrew family that's been in the Persia-to-Egypt area for >3000 years.
One that verse is talking about how Ham's descendant Canaan will serve his other brothers.
I'm surprised they don't mention Katara "letting go" of her anger towards the man who killed her mom because she thought he wasn't worth the effort in The Last Airbender.
Especially with the end of the episode, when she said she still hasn't forgiven him.
I wonder if she would have made the same choice if he wasn’t utterly pathetic, like if he was some kind famous war hero in the fire nation instead.
@@vanceunderwood5364 Yea I wonder that too. If he'd been a serious badass who it had actually been a challenge to fight instead of a helpless old man who begged for his life. I mean, he was still an absolutely AWFUL person, the dude immediately and without reservation offered that she could kill his mother to make things even. But he was also just... Weak. Like he was beneath her notice.
But that's not 'sins of the father'? The guy is explicitly the one who wronged her and there's no evidence that his death would negatively effect anyone to continue the cycle of vengeance.
It's a good example of a revenge plot, but not 'sins of the father'.
Wow, yeah. Red managed to *not* bring up a relevant Avatar reference.
Samson of the Bible comes to mind when talking about this trope. “REVENGE ON EVERYTHING!!!”