Have we found the missing link in the energy storage equation?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มิ.ย. 2024
- Utility scale energy storage solutions are evolving very quickly as more and more intermittent energy sources are being connected to global electricity grids. Manganese dioxide flow batteries may offer a very cost effective way of bridging the gap between short duration lithium-ion batteries and longer duration technologies like hydrogen. But can they be produced at commercial scale?
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I’d love for you to revisit grid scale storage solutions you’ve covered in the past, to see if they are still being developed or if they have been abandoned.
I just realised you did this for solid state batteries 6 months ago, that's awesome! th-cam.com/video/fdSqibMhBwg/w-d-xo.html
The original video came out 3 years ago, that's why I hadn't seen it. th-cam.com/video/ifLxkO0w6B4/w-d-xo.html
Oh no that's a really good question
All have been abandoned like literally everything on this channel.
The DIELECTRIC VORTEX Technology by Ronald Frederick Sykes
Superior Levitation for your personal spacecraft
Energy comes from the vacume of space
Lol, I was thinking the same thing.
A screw pump is usually the choice. The technology is fairly developed pumping cement to high buildings under construction.
Also grain.
Perhaps a peristaltic pump would work even better than a screw pump. Many years ago I used one for quite viscous phenolic resin and it worked a treat. The other option would be to slightly heat the electrolyte, if its viscosity is strongly temperature dependent.
Edit: also possible, a Moineau pump, which is a progressing cavity design, even better for very viscous fluids.
@@johannesschaller5510 I always wondered if peristaltic pumps don't wear out too much, or too quickly...
...if they don't, you are very likely right.
@@smferreiro2610 It depends on the tubing used in them and the material is that is being moved. They are cheap to repair when the tubing does wear out as compared to other types of pumps.
@@gravelydon7072 I guess that, as always, it boils down into a question of economics and logistics: how expensive the tubing is, how frequent we have he system down for what length of time, and if we can afford discarding some fluid in the process (ambiently and economically).
Thank you!
A fine good morning. I wanted to thank you extremely as this is one of TH-cam's Best Series that lives up to its title and every time I watch one it has me thinking on these surmountable problems. Both my Daughters share my opinion that this should be required watched in schools.
You are doing the most valued services to Science. The Thought Process. We are avid watchers have now seen all of the complete series and lively discussion issues from each thoughtful programmes.
I'm delighted you and your daughters have enjoyed the videos. That's made my day :-)
Keep the revolutionary small scale lab experiments coming!
Cheers
Interesting to read so many comments from ‘engineering minds’ who understand all this stuff coming up with solutions to problems. I guess the more people that are set to a task, the more probable it is to find the solution. Reminds me of Charlie Dukes answer to the question why haven’t people gone back to the moon since the Apollo program? His response is along the lines of ‘back then we had 400,000 people working on the mission and an unlimited budget, can’t get that kind of thing anymore’. So I think it’s heartening that there are various groups tackling these problems but find it more disheartening that no government will mobilise the necessary number of people and money to work the problem. I guess the carbon disinformation war is still being won by the petrochemical giants on the key battle fields.
LCD displays were in the lab for 30 years until they swept CRT technology away in a couple of years. It can happen and I hope it does quicker for battery and all other forms of renewable energy storage technologies. The planet is screwed if it doesn’t happen.
Technically they were in the lab *and* in watches, calculators and various niche applications. Shrinking the cells down to pixel size was the biggest issue I guess.
Yea, I definitely think research on all these things needs to keep going forward for the long term gains that we’ll eventually get.
It’s just when I hear someone putting off purchasing an LI storage battery for their solar system cause they want to buy a flow battery when it comes out….that’s when I roll my eyes.
@@alvarofernandez5118 I read that it was getting the manufacturing quality up to a point where the pixel failure rate was acceptable on a large display.
@@SaveMoneySavethePlanet know a lot of people looking for a grid level storage solution for their house?
@@Tasmantor yea, I’ve heard a fair number of people trying to push for small flow batteries every residential block or so.
for paste batteries, maintenance of the reciprocating pumps sounds like a pain. It would be fun to analyze rather than recprocating pumps, to just manipulate entire tanks with, say, an electric lift. You put one tank above the "fuel cell" , and an empty one below. Gravity pushes the paste across the exchange membrane. If gravity alone isn't enough, apply air pressure (positive on the top, negative on the bottom) as an assist to gravity.
If you have whole rows of tanks in a rack, as depicted in the illustration. all the movement will be exchanges of tanks of equal mass, so the lift only needs to deal with inertia, not actually lifting large heavy tanks, aside from at the exchange membrane itself.
So... with this kind of system, rather than trying to move pastes across long distances in pipelines, you only need one air pump near the fuel cell, to charge a compresed air reservoir, perhaps a vacuum pump for bottom extrusion... none of the pumps have to deal with the actual fluid, just air. the rest is done by lift motors moving entire tanks. much longer life, standard components, easier maintenance.
The DIELECTRIC VORTEX Technology by Ronald Frederick Sykes
Superior Levitation for your personal spacecraft
Energy comes from the vacume of space
why pump if you can have gravity do it ? was to be my comment, but you got there first, ok,
i was thinking about the rotating canal boat lift in the UK (i think) did not need a lot of power.
It's sounds as a ggreat improvement!
have you searched for treatment ?
The gravity solution would only be feasible if there was a 100% conversion for every cycle, which is unlikely. The system seems to be relying on a loop with a conversion rate for displaced mass/%charged mass/membrane area.
You could put a second pump on bypass while maintaining the primary pump. That's normally the way to go for undisrupted continuous processes.
The weak point is the membrane which is susseptable to pressure, chemical attack and membrane blinding. The area of the membrane is the controlling factor to the size of the plant. Great idea, but not there yet.
They could probably make the membrane user-serviceable (replaceable) if it lasts long enough, just empty and clean the cell first. They probably have to have a way of isolating each cell with valves anyways should the membrane break.
Membrane mechanical and chemical stability would not be a problem: the electrolyte seems not aggressive; membranes exist in resistnat materials like PVDF; the battery seems have been tested for 300 cycles and this is a basic point for engineers.
One may fear cause blinding/clogging the membrane because of precipitation of Va or Mg or Zn species within the membrane during redox processes. Hopefully this seems unlikely or reversible.
Now when the membrane issue remains, it may be possible to change the membrane alone, or even change the cell stack emptied and easy to repair or recycle because it contains only standard materials, not likle e Lithium battery.
brilliant intro!
About the many "gamechangers" - the important thing is that people are looking for them! As long as there's a decent amount of money being spent on looking at the questions, we will eventually get to the answers :)
YES! carryonsquandering.
There are so many unanswered questions, but it's a nice tidbit of information, thanks...
Refreshing to see a bit of honesty in the advertising... Cheers!
Thank you for having the earth mockup rotate in the correct sense.
No worries. I got that wrong once. Never again!!
"which is a fairly highly regard academic institution" has got to be the best dry humor deadpan statement from you yet. I loved it.
Wait a minute. @9:06 the manganese flow battery is showing an LCOS of $.15/kwh for 300 cycles per year at a 72 hour cycle time. 300 cycles x 72 hours = 2.5 years. . . . . ?
I love how many people in the comments picked that up. If that question occurred to you it means you are engaging with the content and thinking critically not just passively consuming content.
Just wanted to pop in to say that I loved the intro. Never stop being awesome and witty good sir 🤣.
Hell of an intro. lol After watching, I was impressed at what could be achieved if money was thought out in it's uses before you throw it at something that won't work. Good solid approach to research. Well done to MIT and this channel for bringing it to my attention.
Thanks for another wonderful video,
A very large number of technologies succeed in lab, fewer in prototype and very rare ones make it on commercial scale.
Laughed out loud at your opening statement! Haven't even watched the video yet, but needed to comment. High Five, please keep up the awesome content, love your videos!
Yea it got me too!
Thank you! Will do! :-)
Thanks for your excellent research and presentation
Thanks for posting this - always looking for new info on storage - the true weak link on alternatives - thanks!
Thank you as always for your humor and practical analysis. I'm always inspired by your reviews of what may be helpful. Be well.
Amazing video and wonderful explanation as always.
I admire the graph visualisation bits in your videos, they're excellent
Your videos have just got steadily better over time as your subtle humor and personality sneak through the factual stuff like precious gems.
That's really kind feedback Dogphlap. You've been there since nearly the very beginning, so I very much appreciate your support. All the best
*Always interesting to follow your TOYS*
Hi, I watch your channel on a regular basis and really admire your early stage examinations. I loved the humor you used in the beginning of this one! I'm a professional in the renewable energy space in finance and wanted to direct your attention to a couple of areas which are potentially very hot and could do with a "Just Have a Think" treatment. One is at last a breakthrough in cellulose in the unexpected shape of a mechanical method of breaking biomass, cellulose into lignin and glucose. The promise is that this can happen in less than a minute for a 100% conversion, which blows away the 7 or so alternative methods of doing it both by time and cost, and opens up a whole world of possibility with the emergence of sugars not just from the fruits of plants, but from the substance of plants themselves. The company is called Blue Biofuels and is based in Florida and is well worth a look. This is the year they intend to go commercial.
The other idea, which you have touched on previously, is the green ammonia from N in the atmosphere and electrolysed H2 in water using renewable energy as the energy input. Another company called Fuel Positive in Canada has an edge in this arena and I believe it might be eye opening also. All the best and keep the good work coming!
Best intro yet... and there's been many good ones.
Thank you! That's very kind feedback :-)
Keep em coming Dave. Cheers
Thanks for sharing. I think the better flow battery is developed by Elestor in the Netherlands. It is a HBr flow battery specially designed with low lcos in mind. They have mediumscale functional systems running as demonstration projects. The ultimate solution in my opinion would be mimicking nature. In nature we have adp/atp conversion for immediate use, sugars for, short-term and hydro-carbons. All conversions run at room temperature, at atmospheric pressure with non-toxic components, that are abudantly available. I know that there are several attemps/developments running to develop this synthetic hydrocarbon syntheses. I cannot wrap my head around why it would be so difficult to mimick the processes that are so common and mastered by plants as well as animal. Can you possibly eleborate on this in one of your next videos? You are very good at this! I like your series! Best regards, Jan Kees te Riet Scholten.
Organic electrochemical batterie have already been developped. To my knowledge not in the solid state nor in semi-solid state nor in similar flow/tanks design. The capacity and electric power of organics may not read that of metals/metaloids, but there are surely opportunities for organic and biological electric storage to supply several of our electric energy needs. On can occupy more space and use more no-dangerous materials! The may probleme is that redox organics will be less stable that minerals.
So alternatively, 1) at large scale it is probably more convenient to produce ethanol or other biofuel easy to store and then but 'burn' in fuel electricl cells.2)at microscale the mitochondria is nice to produce an electrical potential difference! but not convenient. 3) The electric organe of Torpilla?!
Love it!!! Haha the intro was fantastic:) you’re self aware. And you make it funny.
It's amazing the vast range of technologies that can be explored once you realize that energy storage can be literally any reversible process that takes in electricity.
Everyone's scrambling to push their technology to market since the winner won't necessarily be the cheapest and most efficient, but whoever can capitalize on the first-mover advantage.
Yea, I remember hearing about pumped hydro storage the first time and my brain just exploded. That was the first time that it clicked for me that we can store energy in a potential form.
Forehead slap with look of despair. Money is waiting. Grid across the planet have lots of solar and wind! Just make the batteries or pumped storage for peats sakes. Literally no-one gets it. New this new that, breakthru here there and everywhere. We need storage yesterday not in ten years or maybe 20 or maybe 30 or never. Scam Scam Scam. Build it or build nuclear. NUCLEAR WORKS it always has it's not a breakthru and can be built now!
@@bigstiggerNo1 : Batteries aren't currently (and potentially never _can_ be) viable for grid-scale storage, pumped hydro doesn't have enough good sites, and the people that advocate for this stuff have traditionally bern anti-nuclear (as in "anti-nuclear since the 1970s").
There's a lot of foolishness wrapped up in the whole thing, but there are also reasons for why things have been going the way they have.
@@bigstiggerNo1 Nuclear working at what real total cost ? - cost including government subsidies. Am unconvinced that nuclear has provided a sustainable supply of clean energy.
@@johntolkien9629 Well. I am doing a UK electric grid demand scale study right now. It includes two Fukushima scale disasters with 7 trillion clean up each over a 30 year period. Also incorporating high level waste storage for 1000 years spent fuel around 100 billion. In comparison we have taken annual events seen in the UK where cloudy low solar with no wind regularly reaches 7 straight day thus backup storage of some kind will need to be installed. So Pumped storage, batteries, synthetic fuel production Tidal and on and on included. To be quick and honest, if you want clean cheap and plentiful electricity with absolutely no Fossil fuel or Bio-mass burnt stuff then NUCLEAR is the only option. If you want money is no object outlandish creative massive structures over vast areas of the countryside and coastal areas supporting an intermittent energy source wind and solar is your option. Cheap and clean with a underlying danger in the back of your mind Nuclear. Expensive in your face everywhere you look (maybe to late to prevent serious climate devastation and or war) creative and warm feeling technology then wind solar and tidal. Nuclear or renewables both can get to CO2 free only one can do it quickly and cheaply. If France live up to the latest plan, you'll see that making multiple nuclear reactors end up being quicker per unit that like in the UK where only one maybe two will be built with cost over runs and more negative feeling towards the only real answer for energy needs of the future. If you disagree I understand entirely and am sorry to hear your opinion on this subject, I preferer facts though.
we have so much deep drilling tech, yet you still hear little of geothermal.
it could handle the problem of intermittent clean energy solutions, while being clean itself after the initial drilling.
been around a long time.
just finding from deeper sources is new.
You should discuss the various potential roles for a battery and let that guide your idea of its necessary size. 1) Stabilizing frequency during a high load period, 2) Replacing intermittent solar panels and windmills when they're unavailable, 3) Replacing a full sized power station long enough for the utility to fix a breakdown. 4) List another use here. Once this exercise is done, see what sort of battery tech exists for each application. So far, batteries are available for #1, and nothing exists and nothing is foreseen which can actually do #2 or #3.
Brilliant introduction to this video.
I love the "game changer" technologies. Keep them coming! 😁
Hahaha,best way to fool investors.🤣🤣🤣🤣
Yes.... lolololol
Why though? It's just hopium.
Will do!
Sounds to me like it would be ideal if they could find a way to make the "paste" into a thixotropic gel. [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thixotropy ] The particles can't separate out, but the shear-thinning effect makes it at least a bit easier to pump. I have no idea how difficult it would be to do that in a way compatible with the chemistry, though.
The effect might be familiar from some kinds of salad dressing that use xanthan gum and other related hydrocolloids to keep bits of herbs and spice suspended; it all mixes up when you shake the bottle, but shortly after the shaking stops, the bits just kind of hang there for an extended period. The late '90s exotic soft drink "Orbitz" also used the effect to keep little gel balls suspended in the clear drink. Or perhaps the most familiar of all - at least to Americans - tomato ketchup!
As usual a well presented and researched video.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great sense of humor! "So instead, I'm going to...."
NEVER stop doing these reviews of battery and other cutting-edge possibilities. It doesn't matter if they're complete vapor-ware when it comes to commercialization, the standard that entirely too many absolutely demand of all research projects.
It may take even 50 or 100 years, but someone will take the good ideas and produce something viable, maybe even "game-changing", "breakthrough", and/or "disruptive" (you forgot that one...)
I love how you present these videos with a smidge of humour in them, puts a smile on my face :D
Thank you. I appreciate that feedback :-)
On the basis of your opening intro only I give you a big thumbs up!
Well done.
I hope they have considered soap. Soaps work by having part of their molecule attractive to water and the other end attractive to oil. Other surfactants attract metals or ionised particles. Now this may sound silly but let me give you an example: White sauce is a fat and water mixture with starchy (Big) particles suspended in it, but it can separate or refuse to mix. Mustard tastes spicy but also has soapy qualities. So just throw in a spoonful and voila, lovely smooth sauce that stays that way...
Yes, I bet they have considered surfactants for preventing separation, but I think it’s largely a density-driven separation as opposed to a hydrophilic/hydrophobic separation.
Starch and oil particles don't have the density of manganese dioxide - it's relatively easy to keep them suspended. (Think mayonnaise.) What might work would be a thixotropic fluid that stays firm until put under shear stress: it would liquefy pretty much on demand when you started to pump it.
My point is that people sometimes make presumptions that exclude ideas. You see, posting " is there something that can help but does not jump out". I did not say this was an answer, I used an example (mustard) to show that although people didn't know it had soaplike qualities, cooks knew it worked. The idea of a fixotropic matrix is a good suggestion.The direction of my point is how sometimes answers are missed or thought of as too outre. The philosopher Charles Fort described such in his Book of the damned.
Great video, we will need all these technologies in energy storage and this one seems very interesting. Future never looked so bright!
Dave, you have such a great sense of humor!
That intro though- this guy is gold!
Great delivery - too funny 🤣 Awesome content!
Cheers! :-)
Dave, thank you so much for another one of your deep dives into another captivating subject. I have one query though and hope someone can answer it for me. At 9 minutes 10 seconds, a diagram compares the 4 storage types, across 3 different discharge times, with the final scenario representing 300 cycles per year, with a discharge time of 72 hours. My question Dave is how can this be possible, as it would take 900 days to run those 300 cycles.....supposedly in that 1 year. Dave, keep up the brilliant work.
It's a good question Robin. I will endeavour to find out.
@@JustHaveaThink Have you been able to find out? Great content as always.
The real total time of the testing is not critical, but the number of cycles. Should have wrote '300cycles/2.46years(900days, 300x72Hr). Maybe they have done only 121 cycles in one year and then present the cost levelised to 1 year (should have wrote or '121cycles/year').
@@JustHaveaThink Dave, many thanks for that and as always, for the wonderful thought provoking content of your channel. Here's wishing you much well deserved success 👍😊
@@etienneetienne9054 Many thanks for taking the time to explain that to me, it certainly helps me understand - thank you and have a wonderful week 👍😊
I loved the opening! So many batteries, so much to think about, love your show!
Cheers Wade. I appreciate that :-)
It helps to think of energy storage the same way we think about data storage. We have cpu cache memory that is very fast, then RAM, SSD, hard drives and then archive media. Each plays a role in the system. We'll eventually see the same with storage. Buildings may have small systems for time of year shifting and the cover a few hours when power is out or to storage on site generation. Then you'll see local storage then smooths our daily cycles. Then intermittent storage that can smoothcout weekly or monthly variations and then ultimately long term storage that can handle seasonal and indefinite bstorage requirements.
With no science or engineering background I really enjoy your videos: I can understand them, sometimes.
On your channel, terms like "Gloop" and "Technoeconomic Analyis" are given to us in the same presentation. Well done!
That's the way I like it :-) Keeping it real!!
Love this channel..
Cheers Smokey :-)
Great video as always...
Glad you enjoyed it :-)
You deserve a thumbs up for the opening statementbalone 🖒👍
Intro was on point
Loved the intro. Keep rocking!
Cheers Erez :-)
You also need to look at round trip efficiency, as well as initial cost per kWh of energy storage, cycle life, and maintenance costs. Lithium batteries are incredibly efficient, low maintenance, but have a high initial cost, and limited cycle life.
You are right that all those factors need to be considered and LCOS does. For grid scale time shifting of renewable generation efficiency is not super important because because the charging energy costs next to nothing as it is currently being thrown away. Capital costs divided by total lifetime energy storage are much more important.
Perfect intro... thank you!
Cheers Nathan :-)
Emre Gencer is a Turkish name so although the French style pronunciation is very much in keeping with the rakish moustache it's wildly off, but it made me smile. Great job with the video as always, this just happens to be my thing
Great intro Dave - you got a laugh from me, so, well done.
Loved the Intro 😊
Would really like to see a video dedicated to roundup of the state of grid storage tech, like you alluded to with your recap at the start of this video - covering the relative costs, pros and cons of the different techs, and what we can expect to come out on top in each niche. Also to see which past "breakthroughs" have since been discredited would be fun
Love this channel so much I hit “like” before I even see the videos 😂😂
Bless you Nic. I appreciate your support :-)
9:00 -- I'm confused about the rightmost chart. How can we have 300 cycles in a year if each discharge lasts 72 hours (3 days)? I'm sure I'm missing something here.
I hope for them that's not why they got these good numbers...
Not full cycles. Like my phone, I use and charge it many times a day
@@gyrateful except the differnce betwen the charts was length of discharge cycle.
Doesn’t make sense to me either. I need to look at the paper for what they actually meant with that 1000 days/year battery
Vanadium flow batteries are only limited in their lifespan by the container materials, vanadium can take on either ion state and the differing positive and negative compounds are ionic, the battery can switch back and forth indefinitely as long as the hardware is maintained. No fear of the solution seperating out so for long term reliability the vanadium battery is far superior than what you just showcased.
Yeah but impractical for grid stability without Gas or Biomass to help out. Due to lack of available materials basically. If money wasn't an object and all vanadium was diverted to battery production to save the planet from climate catastrophe. We could make 2.3GWhrs per annum. That is pitiful not hope or savior.
@@bigstiggerNo1 the main flaw with all this, the thing that is causing the issues that things like flow batteries are being perfected for, is that everyone is depending on an aging setup, on those who are now heavily corrupted. A better bet is to take care of one's own power needs, yes you will pay more at first but then you are not a power company that can spread the cost of a project across your client base. If you keep waiting on companies to solve the issues, on governments to provide incentives, then i will hate to be you, any of you. I have looked into a few ideas, including vanadium flow batteries, they are more achieveable than you realize, if you think differently than the rest, if you think at all instead of just reacting like far too many do.
@@bigstiggerNo1 would need money to be diverted to mine more Vanadium, there's plenty available. Big bonus that it can be easily recycled and all these lithium battery fires are very worrying.
@@patryn36 I have 56 solar panels. Three wind turbines. 48KWhrs of lithium battery storage. I have done multiple studies of energy production. If we are not talking Fission leading to Fusion the Maybe antimatter as our future. Then how do you expect to travel to other solar systems with wind or solar power. Trying to be romantic and seemingly good to do will be a dead end. We stopped using mills for a reason either water or wind mills are useless without backup and support. The industrial revolution would have been a lot better for us all if we could have used wind mills and water mills to create it's labor saving longer life's, lifestyle. We needed the portability and compact size of coal to that though. Fission is a far more condensed energy source. Fusion is a step up in condensation. Antimatter another step forward. Using scientist and research money to find answers to energy storage is A BIG WASTE OF TIME MONEY AND RESOURSES. Thorium, Uranium and Plutonium are the most energy dense source of battery we know. The final outcome of energy storage was found by a women who died doing her research. Don't let her death be in vain!
@@bigstiggerNo1 you use solar, wind, and hydro if you have access for small scale. Going commercial and industrial is where reactors are best at, the large scale use sites. Thorium is nice but it needs to be bombarded with neutrons before it is useable in any serious power genenration. From what i can find only way to get that source of neutrons outside of elements like uranium is water and messing with a vital component like that does not sit will with me, one reason i am not a fan of techs like fuel cells. If they could realistically not have any losses in a fuel cell system then i would be on board but physics is a fickle thing in that area. If we had orbital infrastructure collecting hydrogen, then losing the water would be a minor concern cause we could make more. As for the space propulsion, nuclear drives, they have working designs for them, aka the impulse drive from star trek, that use hydrogen as propellent and cooling for the reactor, damn things were prototyped and tested back in the 60's apparently. As for fusion, outside of stars i do not see a point of where it is used by humans unless we get some new very good alloys to cover what we are missing now. Kind of think that the reason we have not managed yet is because magnetism is not even a contender as a means to replace the near perfect containment stars use: gravity. With science as heavily corrupted as it is, i do not see a point, unless a virtual miracle happens, that they get their collective heads pulled out of lala land and back into reality where we will ever have working fusion or a great many other techs. Every choice has a down side, if you exclusively use only one option and never compensate for that downside then you deserve the crap you get. Solar is best when paired with other generation means, like wind and\or water, and you need long term storage that has low maintenance costs, like what a vanadium flow battery has. A battery that you do not have to replace the electrolyte because it wears out is a gold mine waiting to be had. Hell aside from the cell stacks and my momentary limited funds i could build the battery now, i have yet to understand how to build the stacks and what size they need to be, other than that i have sourced everything else. It is always more expensive at first doing things on your own, just the nature of the beast. Just because something is dense with power, does not make it a good idea, sometimes low tech is the only sensible way to go because it can be maintained realistically, like lithium batteries. Such a big deal was made, everyone jumped on that bandwagon and look at the situation now, we are running out of available sources, other sources are being denied due to greed and corruption, and after that we still will not have enough to cover everything because the tech is being misapplied far too often. If we are not short on something you can count on human stupidity and shortsightedness to generate a shortage when we do not need it.
Interesting video as always 👍😀
Cheers Asger
More great stuff from Just Have a Think!
Great channel, with time you are unwantingly becoming a main reference expert. Haha good job.
Thank you for this
My pleasure :-)
Would like to mention ZINC - BROMINE flow batteries being produced by Redflow from Australia. Currently deployed across Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and now some in USA. Long duration energy storage devices that work in a much wider ambient temperature range than lithium and use a much cheaper, safer chemical solution than Vanadium flow. Very long lifespan for solution with no degradation due to cycling. Long term the solution does need restoration cleaning which makes it new again.
Designed to fully charge and fully discharge as solo units or in sequenced strings for large scale applications.
Can sit fully charged without capacity loss for very long periods of time.
I found it interesting, that when doing their cost comparison, they didn't compare themselves to another flow battery technology that is already being deployed. The iron flow battery being built by ESS. Seems like a combination of this technology combined with lithium-ion (sodium-ion soon?) Batteries are still in the lead.
Very hard to be sure of the numbers on complex 3rd party tech like iron air. They might be ahead, but it is all dependent on whether they can get an air-electrode-electrolyte interface cheap. It looks fundamentally hard to me. Either way, this sort of paste tech is probably applicable to the iron side of an iron air battery too, and could make that considerably cheaper.
These batteries are not new. Have been in use for years! Can you do research or is it just watching that you do?
@@bigstiggerNo1 what?!
My money is also on the iron flow battery. Sodium ions are likely a good bet for quick reaction storage, and with a forgiving enough chemistry like the iron-phosphate one they won’t require nickel and cobalt either. Probably.
I don’t think iron air batteries are rechargeable.
@@bigstiggerNo1 Really? Why don't we know then?
LoL! Loved the intro / preamble! ;)
This is one of my favorite emerging technologies channels. I look forward to each video. I do have to note, having spent more that a little time in the area of MIT, that while they are a major research power, they also are well known for some of the great pranks of all time. Ask Harvard and Yale why they twitch a little bit during their annual football game. 😎
Thanks Bill. I can well imagine that :-)
Love the intro! Keep doing what you are doin. Pumping that paste looks really hard especially in/out large sealed tank. Is it better to have in open to air and settle via gravity?
It "annoys some of us" is putting it softly lol half the problem of public ignorance is due to the prevalence of sensational media. We're causing the problem we're claiming to butt against by encouraging sensationslizing research.
Thankfully, though, you examine the research fairly well, and fairly, and well. So it's only only annoying that others do it and we have to be skeptical lol practising skepticism is good for everyone in small doses no matter the source anyway. You are a net help to the cause so no concerns from me. Keep up the good work
I'm feeling rather shallow - a) I love that black gloop is important, and b) Emre Genser has a most magnificent moustache.
OK, getting the finance question involved at an early stage, via a standard model has to be good. Helluva tache, tho'
Glad you liked it :-)
2 things. 1: These fluid systems would likely not work in colder climates unless installed in large heated buildings. 2: All these various schemes plans and proposals are great. Anything that can replace lithium that is in short supply and has to be minded will be a benefit. We have a long way to go but I'm happy to witness some of the journey. Hope we get there before it's too late.
Yes except the large buildings would need to be insulated rather than heated much. The efficiency loss would provide some building heat. Incidentally, do you all know that that's why the Sun's core is hottish, it has simply superb insulation.
THank you.
good interesting video man i liked the intro
Great info - love it! I agree with the commenter below - would be great to get an update on these longer duration storage ideas - maybe do a video one year after each of your intro videos to see if these ideas are gaining any traction?
Good plan :-)
Manganese dioxide in Carbon / Zinc batteries, as primary cells, are two a penny as they are the classic round battery (Zinc-carbon, and Alkali; EverReady & Duracell).
One of the most important features of energy storage is bleed rate. How long will the energy stay in storage? Say if I charge this battery to 100% how many days will it stay above 80% charge.
Since the energy storing atoms are stored in separate tanks rather than either side of a thin membrane in a normal battery, I would expect that problem to be much less for flow batteries. But that's based on a hunch not data.
@@adrianthoroughgood1191 I agree, but they are not bragging about it, or lithium holds charge for years and I just don't know about it. And again, how many months can we leave a tesla in a parking lot and expect to still make it home. I have a Honda that not only won't start after 5 days, but the security system kills the battery and I mean that I have to buy another battery after 5 days.
@@martinsoos IF your replacing a new lead acid battery every five days, you're a got multiple serious problems including poor quality batteries.
@@blaydCA After replacing 4 batteries, it was determined that the batteries were fine. however, Honda, making a new Civic SI sports car had the thought to put every electrical gadget that they could think of in the car and hooked them up to the battery instead of the ignition switch. Honda denies the problem to every person that owns one of those cars and the problem of the breaks going to the floor on occasion and the problem of the new tire pressure sensors leaking air constantly. It's a 2005 and there was a reason I got it so cheaply second hand. I can honestly say that I will be a cold day in hell before I ever buy another Honda. Not because of the car, but because of the denial.
@@martinsoos Ouch! Time for a disconnect switch to the battery cable.
loved the intro.
That intro was priceless :D
I think it would be neat to show how current batteries are affecting the grid and how modelers think future batteries will. As a reference, I like to look at the CAISO site and see what their batteries are doing. Great visuals on their site. It seems pretty simple for CAISO, use cheap solar in AM, offset later during peak demand when solar is also usually going down. But what will it look like as batteries increase? How will they handle cloudy days? How will storage look in more wind dominated places?
Cheers for the video mate 😎 👌
No problem 👍
Should do a video on flywheel storage.
I assume a screw pump would be better suited than a reciprocating (piston & cylinder) type pump.
Two potential challenges i see is corrosion of the parts (storage, pipes, pumps) as well as wear and tear on the membrane separating the two mediums.
Love your work, please keep it up 👍. For content suggesting, looking for a good analysis of EVs impact on oil demand (or lack of impact) and an update on coal phase out (or lack of it). Thank you 🙏
Hi Dave. Along with the thumbs up and down there should be a haha icon to hit on. You had me laughing with your intro today. Keep it up. Love it.
Agree with Markus on the revisit-idea. And also, the sentece "the current state of grid scale storage" made me think that I good idea for a coming episode could be just that: How much energy storage is currently installed in say, UK, Denmark, Norway and Germany, and how much is actually neede to level out that duck-curve - and maybe even stabilizing electricity prices... just an idea
Best intro ever!
I loved the into haha
Cheers :-)
Love your intros, funniest one yet.
Love the intro
Rather than intermittent renewables that require grid scale levelling, how about nuclear power base load power with home scale load levelling. So in the morning, when everyone gets up up and puts the kettle on, the instant demand is supplied locally, then trickled charge through the day ready for the evening demand. That way, you reduce the "jerk" on the grid.
That’s too simple. Apparently, We have to try everything that’s sounds good instead of what works. Besides this would put all the battery researchers on the dole. Cheers
Great intro!!
I'm glad you liked it :-)
Love the intro…beat me some more! Begs the question? What is happening with the MIT announced Aluminum solid battery? Markus Johansson suggestion to do a “revisit” to previous proposed solutions….
How about Unpumped Hydro, seems like places like Canada which generate a lot of energy from using dams, could just adjust the flow dynamically based upon other sources of intermittent energy as needed. This is especially nice in summer when sun is plentiful but water is not.
Very well presented. Fluidised Bed Technology is indicated?
lol loved the intro!