Reloading Rifle - To Crimp or Not to Crimp? That is the question...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2024
- While I was sorting out some issues with my 224 Valkyrie groups, the topic of neck tension came up, which also lead to the topic of crimping vs not crimping. I was talking with a couple of people on the topic. I currently do crimp my rounds for the 224 Valkyrie, but I wanted to see if not crimping and relying on neck tension made a difference.. So I loaded up some rounds and went to the range. The results can be found in the video.. I would love to hear from you in regards to what your process is.. Do you crimp, don’t you crimp, and why (as well as if you are shooting a bolt gun or a gas gun).
Links for things mentioned in the video:
The Reloaders Network: thereloadersne...
224 Valkyrie Reloaders Facebook Page: / 398943407218038
West Desert Shooter: / @westdesertshooter
As always I appreciate you watching and until next time, have fun outside..
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No, I do not crimp, wife and I shoot custom bolt action 6 creeds (TWO trued 700s and one custom action), Hornady Custom shop FL bushing dies, Forster Ultra Mic seating die. Nothing but neck tension, about. 0015" neck tension, hopefully by now you're setup to shoot with nothing but neck tension, crimping is pretty gai, it doesn't take long to figure how to do it with just neck tension.
For me, for precision shooting, yes, all neck tension. Crimping does have it's place but I get better results in precision shooting with just neck tension. Thanks for the reply. PS I enjoy the 6mm Creedmoor facebook group.
Crimping properly turned brass gives uniform bullet retention. Store-bought match rounds are not crimped, but if you pull out the bullet, you'll see that it was glued-in.
I have never checked that with factory ammo,. Just have never taken a factory round apart I guess. .Appreciate the comment.
Been reloading for over 25 yrs. I’ve never crimped.
i've had bullets move without a crimp on my gas guns. so i do a light crimp
That seems to be the trend with gas guns. Thanks for the reply.
I like the crimp, just for the safety factor of setback. I don't think you have to go crazy with it, but I like to know that anyone could grab any of my ammo by mistake and it would safely run in any gun with that chamber designation. I know I am giving up a little that could come from absolutely tailoring max loads tuned to an individual gun, but that's my call. I prefer shooting to be social, and I don't have any need for that extra percent.Maybe if I get better, I will be more exclusive, with bolt guns, but for semi auto cartridges, they gotta be universally safe, albeit probably optimized for my guns within that.
Great comment. Appreciate it. Like I said, just like to get different perspectives.
Respect!!! And I'm glad I saw this comment ( from a new loader.)
I crimp for my semi auto rifles and lever gun. Bolt action no. Semi auto pistols I crimp as well.
You've got it.
Also, all revolvers require a good roll crimp.
Dangerous game caliber rifles (.375 H&H on up) also should be crimped due to the much more intense recoil.
I crimp for everything, lever guns, revolver, bolt and auto. Everything gets some kind of crimp. Not saying everything needs a crimp, but everything gets one haha👍🏻🇺🇸
I am currently in the camp. I am honestly not sure if I will stay there or not. I think for me it will depend on what provides the best accuracy (for most rifles). I will continue to crimp for pistols, and lever guns.. Appreciate the reply
Depends on how heavy my loads are, I get different results depending on brass types used
I never crimp my .30-06 loads fired out of my bolt action rifles, but I would do it if there were intended to be shot out of any semi-auto.
Crimp is unnecessary in anything fired out of a rifle without a tubular magazine or with a semi-auto mechanism, unless you're shooting something in the stouter category in terms of recoil, i.e. anything from .375 H&H on up.
I never crimp in the same step as seating, as that gives inconsistent results, and I exclusively use the Lee Factory Crimp die for all that I crimp, be it handgun (all handgun ammo must be crimped, period) or with the rifle ammo that requires crimp.
Nearly always, the best way to get good accuracy is to rely on neck tension alone.
I crimp almost everything with the Lee Factory Crimp. No matter what dies I use, I purchase a Lee Factory Crimp and use the seating die for seating only and do the crimp as a separate step. Back in the day, my father and I experimented with different crimps and no crimp. we used multiple cartridges and shot for accuracy and group size. We mostly did the experiments with rifle cartridges in bolt guns. We found the best overall accuracy using a medium Lee Factory Crimp vs. no crimp or the crimp in the die set. There were exceptions across the board where one of the other options worked better than the Lee crimp. Using the crimp in your seating die is necessarily dependent on your trim length of your brass. If you trim ALL your brass exactly to the same length, your crimp is consistent. If you use the Lee Factory crimp, trim length is not an issue BUT neck brass thickness is. If you don't like to trim to length every time use the Lee crimp, BUT if you use different types of brass, you get better results trimming to length and using your crimp in the die itself. Brass with different neck thicknesses, ie; Federal, Remington, Winchester or different lots, can cause the Lee crimp die to apply different degrees of crimp on each type of brass. You can have an opinion on crimping but if you don't have actual range time shooting one against another, you are guessing. There are no "Always" and "Nevers". You need to try each in your actual gun. Lee Factory Crimp gave us the best results over most of the applications.
May I suggest using a Sinclair mandrel for getting your neck tension? It is an extra step, however if you want consistent neck tension you won’t go wrong with them. I remove the expander ball all together, resize my brass, then run my brass over the Sinclair mandrel. They sell the mandrel in different sizes. I use the neck turning mandrel which gives me 2 thousandth neck tension. Annealing the brass will also give you much more consistent neck tension.
Many thanks for the suggestion I will have to check that out at some point. Appreciate the comment.
I was at range last week and a gentleman told me to crimp anything in an AR, he stated that bullets could get pushed into the case.
That could be an issue, although a compressed charge could counter act that (someone from the 224 Reloaders Facebook Page made that point). Just food for thought.
He was right.
Crimping should be done for *all* autoloaders.
Ditto for anything intended for rifles with tubular magazines.
Also I found that without a crimp, Valkyrie bullets were actually sliding out a little. I measured reloads then cycled them through rifle and gained 10-15 thousands.
Perfect reason to crimp for sure. Did you know what the neck tension is on rounds? I am wondering if they are sliding with .020" of neck tension. Appreciate the comment.
I never crimp, but you can not have a compressed load and bullets need full contact with neck,, boattail of bullet pass bottom of neck. I have never had a problem with group size or set back in bolt or gas.
I'm curious what the differences in your velocities between your crimp vs neck tensions? Discussions have been had that crimping increases your pressure spike. Loading hot rounds this could be a concern, but my question it, if it increases your pressure spike, wouldn't it also increase your velocities.
If you’ll look at the lower left and bottom of your lee die instructions, there’s instructions for how to get a custom seating stem. You send them $14 and a sample bullet and they mail you back a stem. I’m having the same problem with my 88 eldm and 95 smk’s.
Great page you got going. Keep it up and subscribe. I should have some load data together soon.
I totally missed the custom seating stem order instructions on the lee die set paper. Thanks for pointing that out. That being said I still would have went with the Hornady dies. Not that there is any thing wrong with the Lee set, I wanted the micrometer for the seating die, and I wanted to take advantage of the hornady bullet rebate ;) Also thanks for the comment and feedback. I truly appreciate it.
The lee factory crimp die for rifles seems to give me a very consistent crimp that I have not noticed any accuracy problems with.
I would agree with that. I have not had any issues with that crimping die thus far. Appreciate the comment.
That's my take. Factory Mark 262 is about as accurate as it gets, and that has full on military crimps...
@@GunFunZS Good point.
Love the FCD.
It's definitely one product Lee makes that really is a cut above.
When I'm loading 55 gr blasters on my Dillon 650, for my Ar's, I do crimp because the bullets have cannelure and crimping requires no extra effort except adding another die behind the seating die. If I'm loading on my single stage, for precision rounds, I don't crimp and most precision bullets don't have cannelure anyway.
Many thanks for the reply. Always good to hear what others are doing. Now are your precision rounds for an AR or a bolt rifle?
@@thebigmansoutdoors For both, but mostly AR. I like to always have some 69 or 77 gr precision stuff for stages reaching beyond 300-400 yards or spinner target. You would be surprised how hard it is to spin the spinner at 100 yard with 55 gr stuff. Sometimes people make stuff more complicated than they actually are, and reloading certainly is one of them. If you have adequate neck tension, crimp is not necessary at all, and on the other hand it will only introduce more inconsistency since it's another step. I think it this way, if your brass don't have the neck tension to prevent bullet setbackfrom chambering or mild handling, they you have a problem there and crimping isn't the way to fix it. I do crimp all pistol round because I have to do it to remove the bell. For rifles, only do it for cheap 3 gun practice blaster rounds that have cannelure. For match rounds, no crimp whatsoever, as I store and transport my match ammo in ammo boxes.
TLDR: 95% of the time, I do not crimp. Be it 223 or 338. Some of my rifles like a light crimp and most don't.
@@k.w5804 Understand. Many thanks for the information. Agree with your statement about making reloading more complicated than it needs to be. It can be a big rabbit hole and easy to get lost in the weeds
I crimp cuz my brother told me to "just crimp everything." I do alot of progressive reloading for hunting, pistols, and long-range. I like to crimp cuz that's one more thing I can do consistently to each bullet and my hunting ammo spends alot of time in the truck. I wouldn't want something to wiggle down or wiggle out from the vibrations of traveling
I wonder if you could crimp normal ammo on the shelf and if crimping the ammo would actually improve groups, making it basically match ammo.
Good video. I use the lee crimp for my semiauto rifle and bolt . Just beginning to try some rounds with the bolt gun . I think it’s a individual gun and personal choice.
Many thanks. I agree whole heartedly and that is pretty much where I landed on it.
I don't reload for any semi-auto rifles but the people I know that do use there's for 3-gun not precision so they crimp for reliability.. in case of bullet setbacks "pressure spikes" or jumping forward which could cause loading issues .
Good to know. Appreciate the comment.
+1, but I also haven't seen much credible evidence that crimping moderately is costing any precision either, so why not? In calibers like .223/556, brass is common enough that I am not really worried about wearing it out either. It's probably easier to just sort out some new donated brass and prep it than anneal at this point.
3 minutes in, you've effectively said nothing while saying a whole lot... Next.
Appreciate the feedback
Test one thing/change at a time.
both!
load a lot of lead molds, lubed or powder coated, I have to flare the case so I don’t shave lead or pc off
So I lightly crimp just to smooth out the flare
Not as much an issue with factory jacketed projectiles, boat tail n the like which I don’t flare so no crimp...
Unless I’m goin bush n they’ll be vibrating around in the ammo can. I like the projectile to stay exactly where I put it. 👍
Thanks for jumping in. I understand that, I spend time getting the bullet where it is for a reason.
I don' t crimp, but I may after watching you. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment. I have evolved my practice into the following
Crimp: Hunting ammo, Semi-Auto ammo
No-Crimp: Precision Bolt Gun, Precision Ammo in general.
How many firings do you have on those cases? Do you anneal?
I don't recall the number of firings at the time. Probably didn't anneal at that time
I always shoot reloaded Rem. 223 cases with Sierra 69gr. MK @ 25gr. CFE223 and just 2k neck tension using my Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die that has a mandrel at .2215.
I bought some Rem. 223 Match ammo that uses a Sierra 69gr. MK bullet that has a crimp of 14k on a bullet with 0 channeller and when removed before shooting the bullet is absolutely destroyed.
The only thing Match about that Rem. ammo is the Match name on the box.
I’m reloading now for bolt action they do say crimp for semi no crimp for bolt I just load some jacked smooth Sierra bullets no cannelure there seam to be a very Iight gap I don’t like it so I will do a very light crimp to sung that hair line gap that’s just me and for my cast I do apply a crimp it has a crimp groove so I will use it great video 👍👍
Truly appreciate the feedback. I think I would for sure crimp in the situation that you are describing. Did you measure the neck tension on those? Do you know what they are? just curious. Also I found this little write up from sierra on neck tension. There is a section where they mention about how to adjust it on your dies. I might give it a try and see what happens: sierrabulletsblog.com/2016/05/26/how-important-is-neck-tension/
your welcome my friend yes i did the brass i have is federal so when i purchased it it was processed all i did was trim a little more and chamfer and the neck tension is 0.003 thank you for the link i saved it that will help a lot i am looking into the bushing setup by forster bump die 👍👍
All platforms that have a magazine feeding up into a feed ramp should have a crimp applied, to aid in preventing bullet set back
The platforms that doesn’t Have a magazine feeding up into a feed ramp of the open breech IE the T/C. These round doesn’t require a crimp.
Many thanks for watching and for the comment.
Your very welcome
If that be the case, you may consider getting a custom die set made. From my understanding most of the die manufacturers will make a custom die set upon request. I would recommend that you contact them all get a price that fits your budget. Good luck
Good comparison, thanks.
Many thanks. Appreciate the feedback
Have you noticed a horizontal poi shift with reloads vs Factory ammo when using a crimp? My reloads (speer 130gr hp and hornady 110gr vmax) are hitting 3-4 moa left of all the factory ammo I have ever fired (im zeroed for factory hornady 110gr vmax and one of my reloads is 110gr vmax so I would expect identical poi with that one)
I do generally notice a POI shift, but I do not shoot a lot of factory loads and I have never spent a lot of time trying to quantify it. Most times, if I shoot factory loads it is for barrel fouling. I would expect some kind of shift depending on how the reload stats compared to the factory ammo stats. If your velocities are different and depending on how much of a crimp you put on, those could be factors. Also different powders can do different things if you are not using the same powder as the factory loads. Just my 2 cents, and probably not ever worth that much. Thanks for the comment.
I think most firearms will shoot differently with factory ammo as compared to reloads. Seldom are the two loaded identically creating many variables.
i am new to grendel. I did not even know I had a crimping die until i unburried my box 5 minutes ago. I have been shooting (200) or so handloads with no crimping. now I will try crimping. probably good in an AR-15 to crimp. (lee fcd)
Ha man... I am even more confused than before 😂 Look like I will have to try it by myself. I live far in the north and will also have to see how the temps affect my powder. Let say -25 to 90 degree is a gap... Anyway, I have factory ammo that work really well and will try to replicate it at first. Thanks and have a good christmas!
Many thanks. Appreciate the comment.
@@thebigmansoutdoors haha, I changed my plans! I have a very good load, better than the factory match ammo by now!
@@northman77 awesome. That is the ultimate goal.
I've had best overall luck with a crimp, and I don't crimp with a fixed setting of the dies, but rather by a specific weight on the press handle which seems to help compensate for brass thickness, hardness, and temperature variations. My very best groups have been without a crimp, but also more prone to flyers, while the best average groups were with a crimp. Obviously recoil is a consideration unless you're loading as a single-shot; Because all the neck reaming, annealing, case trimming etc goes out the window with the most slight amount of bullet set-back in the magazine.
Lol, I had same problem w Lee dies, I bought the Hornady w micrometer as well. My Hornady came with the eld seating stem installed.
Yep, I did not know that until after it arrived, (I and had already purchased one separate). I will probably pass my spare on if I find someone with a need..
I’ve never had any issues with lee ! However there are way better choices out there but with way more costs ! It depends do you shoot matches or do you just wanna be a internet group shooter ? The best guys in the business will tell you .... the highest costing match grade equipment isn’t the best and not many guys even use it !
Answer this ? How can the rifling push the bullet in the case if it’s crimped ? It’s a toss up but I’m also testing both theories out with 6.5 cm
Only Annealing your brass regularly, will give you consistent neck tensions. Then you could shoot un-crimped if you want.
I anneal my brass every 3rd firing. And match ammo is annealed after every shot.
I always crimp AR/Semi-auto ammo with the Lee Factory Crimp Die, to prevent bullet push back.
Believe me, all it takes is one time at the range, or in the field hunting, to ruin your day! And you will always be a crimper guy :-)
Thanks for all your hard work, in detailing the .224 Val.
learned a lot of valuable info from ur vids!
The brass I tested in this video was once fired Federal brass. Guess I did not say that in the video. I am going to work annealing in on every 2nd shot with the .224 (at least that is my current plan. Learned that in my brass life study :) ). I think I am going to come back to this test again in the future with annealed brass and after I do some work on my expander in my full length resizing die to ensure that I am getting consistent neck tension. Others have commented with the 224 and the fact that usually we are shooting compressed charges, bullet push back is generally not an issue (although the chance of it moving forward during chambering still exists with improper tension). Truly appreciate the comment and feedback. My hope is that someone can get something from what I am doing..
not crimp
Ok, Many thanks for the reply. Any particular reason? Just curious.
@@thebigmansoutdoors his uncles brothers dad's grandpa said he didn't need to. Dunning Kruger is dangerous when it comes to reloading.
Awesome info, Eric! Good video! I haven't tried without crimping, even in my bolt gun. You've got me curious now!
Many thanks. The question will definitely give you something to think about. Appreciate the comment.
You need a bushing die for consistent neck tension.. That combined with neck turning will get the most consistent neck tension.
I shoot thousands of rounds per year in my AR Service rifles, and have never crimped a single round. I measure all my 600 and 1000 bullets from base to ogive, and separate them according to lengths. . You will find variations in bullet length, sometimes up to .015" or more. Even with the best bullets you will see this. I would also not recommend Hornady bullets, with the exception of the 53grain flat base match bullet. Stick with Sierra, Berger, or Lapua. Hornady bullets are just not consistent from lot to lot. The name of the game is consistency. Shoot 10 or 20 round groups. 5 round groups simply don't tell the whole story. Chronograph your loads too. Try to get single digit standard deviations. Good luck.
Good info all around. Many thanks. I agree with the shot groups however I generally start with 5 than work up. If 5 won't group, 10 or 20 will not either. Appreciate the comment.
I taper crimp all my 223 for the ar-15. I had a bullet set back and blew out the mag and broke bolt carrier.
Yep, that would make me crimp also. Thanks for the reply.
Some of these others on this thread need to see your comment. Good advice. Some of the ignorance in reloading forums is incredible. Dunning Kruger is terribly rampant.
I’ve never crimp on any of my gas guns or bolt guns
Thanks for watching and also for the comment. I am currently trying some new stuff and not crimping to see how it does.
Autoloaders slam the rounds home with some pretty decent force, certainly much more than you could ever do with a bolt gun.
It's at least theoretically possible to have the bullet slide out of the neck and into the lands, a problem in and of itself.
However, there are two more issues that could happen after that:
1) You don't fire that round for some reason, using your action to clear your chamber and dribbling powder down into your action.
2) You don't fire that round and don't notice that you've just ejected a round missing the bullet, then chamber a round right into the bullet lodged in the chamber, tying up your gun until you can carefully disassemble it to clear up the newly created jam.