True and effective...eventually. The majority of his people would not even know he was dead and they would keep fighting. In the moment, only the sniper team would hear the shot. Fighting for your life tends to change priorities. No one would even acknowledge a gunshot if they even heard it.
Dan Daly, with a WW1 era machine gun and a bolt action rifle, held his position during the Boxer Rebellion completely alone against a couple of hundred rebels and killed so many that they stopped coming at him. It would not surprise me if a single squad of modern US Marines, assuming supplies were not an issue, could hold the position indefinitely.
M240B is an awesome weapon. In a single engagement in Afghanistan, I fired, without malfunction, 2750 rounds. Remarkable and very reliable weapon system.
The only difficulty I forsee is that the USMC squad leader would argue over who got to say "Molon Labe". The Spartan's, being Lacedaemons would object to the USMC pronunciation, based on Attic Greek.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out. -Acts 3:19 Please go to a PCA Presbyterian or OPC Presbyterian church, or maybe a Rpcna/Rpc Presbyterian church (These are conservative and actual Presbyterian churches) If you can’t find one of the conservative presby churches then, maybe a Lcms or Wels Lutheran church. If you are Scottish, I recommend the Free Church of Scotland, they are Presbyterian. (Different from the Church of Scotland) If you are English I recommend the Free Church of England. (Different from the Church of England)
I do wonder if the Persians would actually rout immediately, because if they don't, not much changes. This is a numbers game, pure and simple. The M240 weapons squad is generally allotted a thousand rounds per gun when it's taken into the field. Let's say they have 2500 per gun just to be generous. The the seven M4s carried by the other members of the squad have about 200 rounds each, say 1500 total. So 6500 rounds in the whole squad, plus a pair of M203s with at most a dozen rounds. Hand grenades too, but those can't be used until the Persians close in. Some shots will miss, but some will overpenetrate and kill or injure more than one enemy, so let's be generous again and say that the Marines' ammunition can make ten thousand kills. There were 300,000 Persians at Thermopylae, and their command structure was draconian to say the least. At that first Persian advance, the Marines are going to absolutely slaughter them, and they will almost certainly break and run. But most of the Persians weren't in that first attack. They may not believe the incredible tale told by the survivors. They might think that the first attack encountered incendiary weapons; oil-based versions of the Molotov cocktail were in use at this time. So I think they attack again. The Marines can probably put a hurting on the second wave. But if the Persians do not break at this point, our boys are out of ammo. And from Xerxes' perspective, he has lost less than ten percent of his troops. The remaining force, many have been in reserve this whole time and don't know what's in front of them. But they know what's behind them. If they don't attack, they will likely be executed for disobeying the King of Kings and his generals. If the third attack starts, we're back to a conventional ancient battle, which the Persians will win, just at a higher cost than they paid in real life.
This is the type of analysis this video deserved. It seems to have been somewhat lazily finished. But would the marines go all-out, or would they conserve ammo, knowing they had a huge army out in front? What difference would they make sending short bursts behind the clash as the Greeks hold the line, and how long would it go on? Would the marines have been able to hold the trail? That alone would have turned the battle, as the Greeks were doing just fine at the line. The phalanx is nearly supreme if you have to face it head-on.
@@artoo36 I think the conservation of ammo is included here the number of inflicted losses is very positive but the effect on morale is ignored. The greeks fought from a wall,
There may have been 300,000 Persians but figures of 100,500 or 200,500 are far more likely. Not that that changes your argument, you made some great points!
I think the noise would travel, and the errant tracers would be seen deep in the ranks, even to reserve units. The retreating soldiers, along with the wounded would spread fear. IMO, the marines could conserve ammo by firing only enough to cause quick retreats. I don’t think they would actually run out before the rout.
“The Scottish” weren’t a side at Culloden, they were on both sides in a civil war between the Hanoverian parliamentary government and the rebel, absolutist leaning Jacobite rebels. Just a bit of one of my pet peeves. Beyond that ironically most of the Jacobites went on to support their former enemies in London against the American Patriots during the Revolutio (while many future Patriots were loyal to the government at the time), so I doubt there’d be much love lost between the two. Ironically having some weirdo crypto-monarchist German KSK vets or PMCs might fit better. But that aside it is at least a nice idea.
Seeing their enemies slaughtered like that might have made the Spartans feel a bit sorry for them. Being killed like that, without a chance to fight back.
I love this series, I really do. But you're absolutely right, there is a time gap that is too large for a scenario to be worth doing. Sending guns to a pre-gunpowder era reduces everything to, do the future people have the ammunition to last until the other side gives up? I think you could have had some fun with a slightly more modern ancient or medieval force at Thermopylae, such as a Roman legion or a Crusades-era army. But I'd like you to expand beyond just anachronism. This YT channel is essentially a better researched, less overhyped version of the old Deadliest Warrior show. And in that role, I think you can do a good, entertaining job examining matchups that are closer in time, but separated by distance and never occurred in real life. European knights vs. Sengoku period samurai, Union soldiers vs. Napoleonic infantry, there's a lot of battles you could do...
I just read a book series called The Dark Elf War, and it was basically today's military tech, vs primitive sword and shield tactics (with magic added in) and while yes the modern weapons devastated the armies of the dark elves, once the elves closed the distance the soldiers of Earth were slaughtered.
@@PatrickMJrthat’s not really related because it’s fantasy(magic) I mean it’s a cool concept and I get what you mean but we’re focusing more on a historical and realistic basis.
@@loquimean6480 who's to say that's not precisely what this presentation is? Any sufficiently advanced technology, when compared to a more primitive society, would be regarded as "magical" by said society - and you don't even have to go that far back for something in common use today to be considered "magical" by people in the 1800s, even in the same nation that would still have existed; e.g. the United States of America, for the sake of argument - let alone certain current "third world" nations, who currently often regard things we take for granted as literal, unironic sorcery. The device you're watching this on right now would be considered "sorcery" to someone in 1850, assuming you were also able to transport a solar-powered battery to keep it powered with electricity. For that matter, said solar panel *itself* would be considered sorcery.
@@williampanagopoulos656 Let's be more charitable and - without taking the song _too literally_ - include all PLC cavalry at Vienna, as hussars never worked alone in any important battle nor, more importantly, beyond it. A rout could be easily turned into a strategic disaster due to light cav exploiting it - this was the stuff that could break an army, not just loss on a "proper" battlefield. Now whether Ottoman army was too large or whether its siege stance would be a massive handicap or its numbers too inundated with workers and support staff to present a suitable match, esp. with defenders likely sallying out like those from Vienna... that would be something I'd prefer to watch a video about without doing all the work :)
@@Saeronor and tbf, 10,000 cavalry is no joke As for a Sally by the defenders That depends on WHEN in the siege they arrive If it's the same 11th hour situation as in Vienna Constantinople just had too few people... I don't see them being able unless the ottomans were SERIOUSLY shaken
Great video! If I were one of the Persians I'd probably think it was the Greek god Apollo who slaughtered my comrades with his plague arrows, and the thunderous sound would be Zeus hurling his thunderbolts.
i remember reading this one post on reddit where a french army member bad said that every military in the world secures position and waits to retreat when stuff goes bad or when multiple people in the unit are killed, except for the us military which pushes in attempt to kill the people who killed the us troop.
Makes sense. American culture is intensely competitive and aggressive, and US people in general and troops are very prone to take the initiative - part of which underlies American innovation and competitiveness. Military culture is almost everywhere; it is very top-down and hierarchical, and troops are beaten down to obedience to authority instead of unleashing their aggressive will to win. The US culture is very bottom-up, while the Europeans and most other cultures' militaries are entirely top-down and terrified of troop initiative.
@@britcat7780 american culture is the funniest thing. we’ll get in arguments with people from different areas about who has the best food and best this of that then when a foreigner insults anything about us we band together. and traveling literally 2 hours could be the difference between “everyone deserves to live a happy and stable life” and “women should never leave the kitchen”
After they ran out of ammo, there still would be 99,999 enemies left. But seriously, if they failed morale and ran away, just the realization of the possibilities would inspire wise men all over the known world to push the speed limit on scientific research.
Your last comment caught me off guard in a good way. I assumed it would be in the realm of logistics vs numbers, and there's only so many rounds a fire team can carry before getting overwhelmed with sheer numbers. But you summed it up very well. I had considered the "godlike" aspect but didn't give it any real weight. But you are absolutely right about upending the entire concept of what war is in an instant.
There is an anime that was made long ago about this. It is called GATE. The anime GATE was about a japanese self defense force being sent in to a different world of an midieval era with some dragons and wyverns and magic but it also shows how deadly we are compared tot he past. I highly recommend it. Sadly they stopped the production of this anime
I remember seeing parts of it... and sadly, it pushed that past the realistic. I don't care how good modern CQC experts are, they're not singlehandedly taking down a platoon-equivalent unit with armor, weapons, training specifically tailored to melee.
I agree that sending modern soldiers to the ancient world is not nearly as interesting as these scenarios could be. That is why would like you to redo this battle, but send a unit of Medieval Knights or English longbowmen to guard the goat path used to flank the Greek army. How long could a unit of German landsknechts held the path against Xerxes' Immortals?
Depends a lot on the arms and armor of the landsknechts. Absolutely no weapon the Persians had access to would do anything to even early medieval armor, and none of their equipment could withstand blows from medieval weapons (A pollaxe will have no trouble caving in a bronze helmet).
Your point about vastly anachronistic units is fair, but I still think these can be interesting. If we look at a unit that is close enough, or small enough that it might not change the outcome of the battle, or at least not in a meaningful way, there's not as much to speculate about--we know how /that/ happened already. On the other hand, what impact would the battle have if the Marines returned to the present after this battle, and the Spartans no longer had that fire support?
The psychological effect is too overstated. The question is what tactical effect the marines would have. Hearken back to the Alamo video. There was discussion of the number of rounds, accuracy of weapons, range of weapons, the tactics and terrain used, etc. The past few videos I've seen all end with "the psychological effect" and then an assumed route. It's plausible they might run. It's also plausible that they would have stood and fought after a brief huddle. The point of the videos, though, is lost if we just automatically assume they route. How many rounds does a six man team carry? Machine guns are not the most accurate of weapons. Of those rounds, how many would be solid hits, and disabling? What about the terrain? Where would the marines be set? How far away are the Persians when they come into view? Assuming the Persians just kept marching, how long would it have been before they reached the battle lines? How would the marines react to the second battlefront? Would they have any ammo left? At the point the marines do run out of ammo, would the Greeks be able to hold off the remaining Persians? Marines wear armor, but it's head and chest only, much less coverage than others, and not designed to excel in combat vs swords and spears, and they only have knives vs swords and spears carried by the Persians. The marines have deadly training, but the Persians are all battle hardened and trained for years, not months. Would the marines last in hand-to-hand combat? ... Can we request a re-do?
One thing with psychology that is also skipped there is the potential for a combo of basic knowledge about the historical battle combined with a lot of other potential. Headhunting is also something that would likely be a MAJOR thing, and since it's a mass combat battlefield, the commanders would be trying to stand out in dress and action combined with things like, potentially, even sleeping in separate areas... The british during the revolutionary war were freaking out about the colonial irregulars pulling that kind of thing and both sides suffered from it during the US Civil War, and those were using the same weapons tech...even being slightly behind had it as a nasty thing during Vietnam with the Vietcong picking out officers to kill in the field. Now, add in a heck of a lot more range (at a minimum) and lethality with systems...you're going to have another massive mess there for the Persians. The persians end up with a massive command and control problem from the combo of what would appear to be magic death weapons combined with their leadership being wiped out...
1. Polish Winged Hussars at 1453 Siege of Constantinople 2. Norwegian Nuclear Sabotage, but with modern British SAS 3. American Ironclad ships at Trafalgar
4. A mechanized infantry battalion of the present-day British Army in the Battle of Singapore (or maybe Battle of Malaya as a whole). 5. Gulf War-era Iraqi Army's Hammurabi Division in the battle that would've been Sack of Baghdad in RL 6. Modern heli and VTOL carriers of present-day Japanese Navy (and its battlegroup) in the Battle of Midway/Philippine Sea/Mariana 7. A company of T-90s in First Battle of Kiev (WW2) 8. Khwarazmian with a battalion of HIMARS vs the Mongols
The only thing that would make this a different scenario other than mystic is the fact that even though modern weaponry is very effective in its ballistic capabilities, there are technical issues regarding modern-day weapons. These issues can include things such as cyclic rates of the firearms, the reloading of such firearms, and the sheer number of enemy which could possibly continue to rush through even a small Gap such as presented. Should the enemy feel that they could push through and maybe believe in their own gods more strongly than the ones they believe they are fighting they might actually have the sheer numbers to be able to push through and overwhelm the superior firepower of the ballistic weapons in which the Marines possess.
Your channel popped up and i thought...these 'what if' are ridiculous,Bizzare and dumb and im not wasting my time with 'what if' i will take regular 'history'. Well....im binge watching now!! These videos are EXTREMELY FASCINATING!! I love the vudeos!
How would a squad of Marines do in the same battle, well being turned into a squad of porcupines springs to mind , unless they were sheltering under some Spartan shields when all those arrows blotted out the skies .
Julius Caesar Army he invaded Briton with the second time vs a British battle of towton army or Julius Caesar (with army he had against vercingeterix) vs either Hannibal or Attila the Hun?
The potential for storytelling in scenarios like these are massive, especially regarding the aftermath. But yeah, most modern equipment (vehicles especially) would face the problem of maintenance/fuel/ammunition in the _spec-TACULARLY_ unlikely scenario of the enemy overcoming the terror and charging anyway instead of routing.
What could an WW1 A7V Tank accomplish at the battle of tannenber 1410? It's a big time difference, but they would probably not see that kind of early tank as magic or supernatural, they had cannons and knew how gunpowder shots sounded. The tank would also not be completely invincible, as it had big window-like openings and was pretty slow and known for having technical difficulties.
I quote a sentance out of the film Zulu Dawn: "But bullets run out, and those bloody spears don't". A perfect example is the battle of Isandlwana to see if modern arms are superior to spears. The answer is no. Not if the marines are outnumbered.
Imagine the sound of the machine guns. Without context, the Persians would only be able to guess what made those sounds as their comrades died. The war stories from this hypothetical encounter would be harrowing.
Yep they’d basically see bright flashes in the distance and then here what they see/interpret as rapid fire thunder. And if the marines were using tracers oh boy that would be even scarier
@@CFC-xi8dzThey don't need ammo, the average marine has a college degree and practical experience in all fields of construction and engineering..... Mostly because there isn't a single marine that hasn't been voluntold to help army corps of engineers or maintainers when ever something heavy needs to be moved around or somebody needs to hold the very very dangerous wires, at any rate they quickly learn a thing or two, Plus you know they are all goddamn nerds, why do you think half of them have WH40k patches somewhere on their armor, getting thrown back into the classical era along with the rest of their squad is literally the wettest of the wet dreams. Now let's look at them in the context of being back in the classical era, you basically have a sizable group of sages who seemingly have infinite knowledge regarding every single concept in the mortal world, not only that they are still Marines so they are the single most lethal thing that exists in the world, They would tear a Spartan in half in 29 different ways before he even figured out what the f*** was going on. In a single year this guy's could turn a small nearly barbarian city state into a world superpower just by using the bessemer process to mass produce steel and steel weapons. I mean what the hell is an Athenian Phalanx going to do against even as low as 50 heavy infantry man Clad from head to toe in high carbon steel half plate and armed with pole axes that can smash trough copper and bronze like f****** tissue paper. What the hell are Persian archers going to do against recurved bows, scorpions and onagers from the God damn Roman era. I know we love to put everything before the gun into this generalized category of primitive weapons, But there are such massive differences in the capabilities of the bronze age classical era weapons against something like the Roman eras, Hell even just during the existence of Rome there is such a ridiculous difference in capacity between something like the pre-reforms Republican Roman military equipment against the imperial Roman equipment against the Byzantine equipment. And this guys would you know likelihood know all of them and could recreate all of them, The mass production of steel alone would already render them absolutely invincible but the knowledge of Even the basics of how steel armour and weapons are supposed to work and look combined with the actual knowledge on weapon making of the people of the era under their command would make them such an incredibly powerful force. I mean they don't even need to know how to make Shane mail They just need to explain what chainmail is and One of their armorers will eventually figure it out with their help. It wouldn't even be a long process, people are smart after all and just knowing how something is supposed to look when it comes to cold weapons means that you already have the blueprint for it on your head.
I doubt it would be useful to fire randomly into the crowds. You might mow the front just to scare them after but the real benefit would be to take out leaders of the enemy army. You could pretty much just eliminate Xerxes with any rifle. He was probably close enough to shoot pretty easily and was on top of a hill.
I really liked how you broke this down. The casualties on the Persian side would be high, but because of the ensuing route, they would be lower than the actual battle 2500 years ago. Also, with their new found weapon, one might expect a Greek invasion of the East. Once the survivors stumbled back to the Persian capitol to warn the people what was coming, it would trigger a mass surrender before the Greeks even got halfway across Anatolia. I could even see some of the more ambitious Persians offering to help the Greeks in securing the Empire. The question is what will the Greeks (marines) do when they run out of ammo? The scenario here would have to be reimagined.
I would say this would largely depend on the amount of ammo the Marines had on hand, because in that time there would be no way to make more…Once they were out of ammo, they;d have been at a severe disadvantage.
The British were the first to use a machine gun against people armed with shields,spears, bows and arrows in their African colonies. The effect was devastating and slaughtered these African tribes in combat.
For the next video could you maybe do something a bit closer in time period like maybe having a British armor company present at the battle of the Somme?
I really enjoy this sort of content! I think one of the biggest things the marines bring to this battle is hindsight, they know about the betrayal. What about ancillary systems? Para flares would scare the crap out of ancient peoples, Tripflares, binos/optics, the mentioned squad radios, sidearms, do Marine MG squads carry claymores? M72 or AT4? Modern medkits, modern tourniquet could save greek troops.
The question on depends on if the marines get unlimited supplies. If not, they'd form a stationary no-go zone for a little while. If so, they'd form a mobile no-go zone. The soldiers on both sides would be shocked by the sound of the gunfire. That sound didn't exist back then. They'd be puzzled why men fell and bled without a slinger or archer nearby. And where were the arrows or tell-tale sounds of sling bullets whizzing by? It's possible the Persians would say, "bad juju today, we'll come back tomorrow" and leave.
Introducing modern weapons into ancient battles with huge numbers of combatants would be more effective with snipers taking out the enemy's officer corp.
here's a more reasonable what if for you. what if the Maus was built/injected into WW1? how would having the massive superheavy influence tank designs, doctrines, and battle tactics for a war where the idea had only just become a thing?
I can see the absurdity of the machine gun squad v. Hoplites. The smoke. The thunder. The whizzing of bullets. The Greeks and the Persians would believe that mighty Zeus has come down from Olympus to protect the Greeks.
I think you got the point and area target accuracies mixed up. Point target means hitting a specific individual target - in this context a person. An area target means hitting something in that area. At range machine guns are intended to suppress a ‘beaten zone’ ie the area which its bullets will land within.
The argument that must be made here is that a modern fire squad would recognize the technological disparity and become extremely selective with their shots, conserving ammo. The first shot would be a single 203 round that would route and disperse the entire first formation sent towards them. The second shot would be a single 203 round at its maximum effective range into the tightest cluster available. These two shots alone may have led to an offer of reconsidered negotiation. If not... single rifle rounds peppering the command squads from a kilometer away would easily break any army from that period. What ever show of power their commanders could make would pale next to holes just appearing in thier lieutenants and standard bearers. It would certainly have slowed it down enough for more reinforcements to arrive
Can you do a video that basically encompasses the scenario set up in the 1980 film 'The Final Countdown'? The USS Nimitz, CVN-68 gets mysteriously transported back in time to the day before the Japanese fleet attacked Pearl Harbor. Due to time paradoxes, the ship adhered to a 'no interference policy' and did not take part in the defense. How would the 1980's version of the USS Nimitz effect the course of world war 2? If I'm not mistaken, the girl had an offensive nuclear capacity and some impressive jets, which can basically be fueled by any flammable liquid. The reactor could stay powered for decades without refueling. It's possible that the technological revolution it's presence would spark could bootstrap the 1940's US into the atomic age fast enough to refine usable nucear fuel for it. Perhaps some of the crewmembers would even live to see their 'second 1980'
Also, don't forget the modern archeologists finding 7.62 brass and belt links, that would blow a lot of minds.
Actually I’m curious would the brass last that long to be recognizable
@@ReaperofValhallayea
I doubt they would recognizable after that long, considering WW2 shells are barely recognizable
@@Homosexual_Harley but like, what if the spent shells were put in shitloads of broken pottery :) ?
@@matthewhickey7858 idk, it’s one of those things where slight changes could drastically alter everything
Actually, a good Marine sniper team would have taken out Xerxes in a half a heart beat.
True and effective...eventually. The majority of his people would not even know he was dead and they would keep fighting. In the moment, only the sniper team would hear the shot. Fighting for your life tends to change priorities. No one would even acknowledge a gunshot if they even heard it.
Dan Daly, with a WW1 era machine gun and a bolt action rifle, held his position during the Boxer Rebellion completely alone against a couple of hundred rebels and killed so many that they stopped coming at him.
It would not surprise me if a single squad of modern US Marines, assuming supplies were not an issue, could hold the position indefinitely.
M240B is an awesome weapon. In a single engagement in Afghanistan, I fired, without malfunction, 2750 rounds. Remarkable and very reliable weapon system.
The rusian counterpart it is similar, and even morre robust
The only difficulty I forsee is that the USMC squad leader would argue over who got to say "Molon Labe". The Spartan's, being Lacedaemons would object to the USMC pronunciation, based on Attic Greek.
An eclectic, historical, Spartan, Dad joke.
Did you post this in 2023 or 2024 because either way you won the year.
🫡
There would probably be some platoon drama over who gets to eat the crayon rations too.
And you will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. -John 3:16
Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out.
-Acts 3:19
Please go to a PCA Presbyterian or OPC Presbyterian church, or maybe a Rpcna/Rpc Presbyterian church
(These are conservative and actual Presbyterian churches)
If you can’t find one of the conservative presby churches then, maybe a Lcms or Wels Lutheran church.
If you are Scottish, I recommend the Free Church of Scotland, they are Presbyterian.
(Different from the Church of Scotland)
If you are English I recommend the Free Church of England.
(Different from the Church of England)
@@MrJameslupien🐪
@@geekstradamus1548🐪
I do wonder if the Persians would actually rout immediately, because if they don't, not much changes. This is a numbers game, pure and simple. The M240 weapons squad is generally allotted a thousand rounds per gun when it's taken into the field. Let's say they have 2500 per gun just to be generous. The the seven M4s carried by the other members of the squad have about 200 rounds each, say 1500 total. So 6500 rounds in the whole squad, plus a pair of M203s with at most a dozen rounds. Hand grenades too, but those can't be used until the Persians close in. Some shots will miss, but some will overpenetrate and kill or injure more than one enemy, so let's be generous again and say that the Marines' ammunition can make ten thousand kills.
There were 300,000 Persians at Thermopylae, and their command structure was draconian to say the least. At that first Persian advance, the Marines are going to absolutely slaughter them, and they will almost certainly break and run. But most of the Persians weren't in that first attack. They may not believe the incredible tale told by the survivors. They might think that the first attack encountered incendiary weapons; oil-based versions of the Molotov cocktail were in use at this time. So I think they attack again. The Marines can probably put a hurting on the second wave. But if the Persians do not break at this point, our boys are out of ammo. And from Xerxes' perspective, he has lost less than ten percent of his troops. The remaining force, many have been in reserve this whole time and don't know what's in front of them. But they know what's behind them. If they don't attack, they will likely be executed for disobeying the King of Kings and his generals. If the third attack starts, we're back to a conventional ancient battle, which the Persians will win, just at a higher cost than they paid in real life.
Right up until Xerxes head goes pop
This is the type of analysis this video deserved. It seems to have been somewhat lazily finished.
But would the marines go all-out, or would they conserve ammo, knowing they had a huge army out in front? What difference would they make sending short bursts behind the clash as the Greeks hold the line, and how long would it go on? Would the marines have been able to hold the trail? That alone would have turned the battle, as the Greeks were doing just fine at the line. The phalanx is nearly supreme if you have to face it head-on.
@@artoo36
I think the conservation of ammo is included here the number of inflicted losses is very positive but the effect on morale is ignored.
The greeks fought from a wall,
There may have been 300,000 Persians but figures of 100,500 or 200,500 are far more likely. Not that that changes your argument, you made some great points!
I think the noise would travel, and the errant tracers would be seen deep in the ranks, even to reserve units. The retreating soldiers, along with the wounded would spread fear.
IMO, the marines could conserve ammo by firing only enough to cause quick retreats. I don’t think they would actually run out before the rout.
I’d love to see a US Army Special Forces A-Team circa 1970 with the Scottish against the British at the Battle of Culloden in 1746
Let’s do this! Let’s up vote this bloody thing.
that would be good
“The Scottish” weren’t a side at Culloden, they were on both sides in a civil war between the Hanoverian parliamentary government and the rebel, absolutist leaning Jacobite rebels. Just a bit of one of my pet peeves.
Beyond that ironically most of the Jacobites went on to support their former enemies in London against the American Patriots during the Revolutio (while many future Patriots were loyal to the government at the time), so I doubt there’d be much love lost between the two. Ironically having some weirdo crypto-monarchist German KSK vets or PMCs might fit better.
But that aside it is at least a nice idea.
Seeing their enemies slaughtered like that might have made the Spartans feel a bit sorry for them. Being killed like that, without a chance to fight back.
Not Spartans. Maybe the other states, but not Spartans. Spartans would more likely laugh at them for dying so easily.
Spartans would be grumbling amongst themselves, "How the f are we supposed to fight them if it comes to that?"
They would be terrified at the weapon they hold, having that used against them would be the worst. Imagine Greek fire but worse
Naw, we romanticize the Spartans. They would immediately start making plans of conquest if they had the advantage. Those people were brutal.
Our arrows will blot out the sun.
Dan Daly and his machine gun already showed what would happen. Boxer Rebellion.
Boxer rebellion didn't have as many numbers in one battle and a god king on their side for morale so different scenario
A 13 man Marine rifle squad is composed of one rifleman and twelve press agents.
I love this series, I really do. But you're absolutely right, there is a time gap that is too large for a scenario to be worth doing. Sending guns to a pre-gunpowder era reduces everything to, do the future people have the ammunition to last until the other side gives up?
I think you could have had some fun with a slightly more modern ancient or medieval force at Thermopylae, such as a Roman legion or a Crusades-era army. But I'd like you to expand beyond just anachronism. This YT channel is essentially a better researched, less overhyped version of the old Deadliest Warrior show. And in that role, I think you can do a good, entertaining job examining matchups that are closer in time, but separated by distance and never occurred in real life. European knights vs. Sengoku period samurai, Union soldiers vs. Napoleonic infantry, there's a lot of battles you could do...
I just read a book series called The Dark Elf War, and it was basically today's military tech, vs primitive sword and shield tactics (with magic added in) and while yes the modern weapons devastated the armies of the dark elves, once the elves closed the distance the soldiers of Earth were slaughtered.
@@PatrickMJrthat’s not really related because it’s fantasy(magic) I mean it’s a cool concept and I get what you mean but we’re focusing more on a historical and realistic basis.
@@loquimean6480 who's to say that's not precisely what this presentation is?
Any sufficiently advanced technology, when compared to a more primitive society, would be regarded as "magical" by said society - and you don't even have to go that far back for something in common use today to be considered "magical" by people in the 1800s, even in the same nation that would still have existed; e.g. the United States of America, for the sake of argument - let alone certain current "third world" nations, who currently often regard things we take for granted as literal, unironic sorcery.
The device you're watching this on right now would be considered "sorcery" to someone in 1850, assuming you were also able to transport a solar-powered battery to keep it powered with electricity. For that matter, said solar panel *itself* would be considered sorcery.
You wouldn't have to kill all the enemy, with their lack of knowledge of firearms, they would probably equate it to the fury of the gods, and give up.
I think you’re overthinking my funny haha videos
So, if less disparity works that much better...
What if Winged Hussars (ie. no artillery, no HRE contingent) arrived, but... at Constantinople?
Turkey would still be Christian.
@@nautifella ... I mean 6000 men is good but like...
The ottoman army was huge in 1453
Also, we beat them back at 1453...
They'd be back in 1460
No more arab conquest. Muhammad's ambitions die in the cradle.
@@williampanagopoulos656 Let's be more charitable and - without taking the song _too literally_ - include all PLC cavalry at Vienna, as hussars never worked alone in any important battle nor, more importantly, beyond it. A rout could be easily turned into a strategic disaster due to light cav exploiting it - this was the stuff that could break an army, not just loss on a "proper" battlefield.
Now whether Ottoman army was too large or whether its siege stance would be a massive handicap or its numbers too inundated with workers and support staff to present a suitable match, esp. with defenders likely sallying out like those from Vienna... that would be something I'd prefer to watch a video about without doing all the work :)
@@Saeronor and tbf, 10,000 cavalry is no joke
As for a Sally by the defenders
That depends on WHEN in the siege they arrive
If it's the same 11th hour situation as in Vienna
Constantinople just had too few people...
I don't see them being able unless the ottomans were SERIOUSLY shaken
Great video!
If I were one of the Persians I'd probably think it was the Greek god Apollo who slaughtered my comrades with his plague arrows, and the thunderous sound would be Zeus hurling his thunderbolts.
i remember reading this one post on reddit where a french army member bad said that every military in the world secures position and waits to retreat when stuff goes bad or when multiple people in the unit are killed, except for the us military which pushes in attempt to kill the people who killed the us troop.
They learned that from the Marines in WW1, retreat hell, we just got here
yu bet your azz , too misquote the actual meaning " the arsenal of democracy " means muck with US,And reap what you have sown !
Makes sense. American culture is intensely competitive and aggressive, and US people in general and troops are very prone to take the initiative - part of which underlies American innovation and competitiveness. Military culture is almost everywhere; it is very top-down and hierarchical, and troops are beaten down to obedience to authority instead of unleashing their aggressive will to win. The US culture is very bottom-up, while the Europeans and most other cultures' militaries are entirely top-down and terrified of troop initiative.
@@britcat7780 american culture is the funniest thing. we’ll get in arguments with people from different areas about who has the best food and best this of that then when a foreigner insults anything about us we band together. and traveling literally 2 hours could be the difference between “everyone deserves to live a happy and stable life” and “women should never leave the kitchen”
After they ran out of ammo, there still would be 99,999 enemies left.
But seriously, if they failed morale and ran away, just the realization of the possibilities would inspire wise men all over the known world to push the speed limit on scientific research.
Your last comment caught me off guard in a good way. I assumed it would be in the realm of logistics vs numbers, and there's only so many rounds a fire team can carry before getting overwhelmed with sheer numbers.
But you summed it up very well. I had considered the "godlike" aspect but didn't give it any real weight. But you are absolutely right about upending the entire concept of what war is in an instant.
There is an anime that was made long ago about this. It is called GATE. The anime GATE was about a japanese self defense force being sent in to a different world of an midieval era with some dragons and wyverns and magic but it also shows how deadly we are compared tot he past. I highly recommend it. Sadly they stopped the production of this anime
the manga still continued the story after the second season, GATE is one of the best isekai animes tho, hand down
I remember seeing parts of it... and sadly, it pushed that past the realistic. I don't care how good modern CQC experts are, they're not singlehandedly taking down a platoon-equivalent unit with armor, weapons, training specifically tailored to melee.
I agree that sending modern soldiers to the ancient world is not nearly as interesting as these scenarios could be. That is why would like you to redo this battle, but send a unit of Medieval Knights or English longbowmen to guard the goat path used to flank the Greek army. How long could a unit of German landsknechts held the path against Xerxes' Immortals?
or a spanish tercio. basically a phalanx but with guns too
Then the Winged Hussars arrived
the Longbowmen would be cut down likely with ease
the landsknechts pikes on the goat path?
I agree
That type is more interesting
Depends a lot on the arms and armor of the landsknechts. Absolutely no weapon the Persians had access to would do anything to even early medieval armor, and none of their equipment could withstand blows from medieval weapons (A pollaxe will have no trouble caving in a bronze helmet).
Your point about vastly anachronistic units is fair, but I still think these can be interesting. If we look at a unit that is close enough, or small enough that it might not change the outcome of the battle, or at least not in a meaningful way, there's not as much to speculate about--we know how /that/ happened already.
On the other hand, what impact would the battle have if the Marines returned to the present after this battle, and the Spartans no longer had that fire support?
We’re making it out of history class with this one🔥🔥🔥🔥💯💯💯
I like these what if videos. I'm glad I found your channel. How about a platoon of British paras from Grenada at Rourkes Drift?
scenario idea: hannibal crossing the alps finds himself in aztec mexico in the year 1500.
It would be cool to see a Modern swedish squad at poltava in the great northern war
In Eric Flint's novel *1632* a similar event occurs when the temporal displaced Americans fight a Pike and Shot formation with an M-60 GMPG.
The psychological effect is too overstated. The question is what tactical effect the marines would have. Hearken back to the Alamo video. There was discussion of the number of rounds, accuracy of weapons, range of weapons, the tactics and terrain used, etc. The past few videos I've seen all end with "the psychological effect" and then an assumed route.
It's plausible they might run. It's also plausible that they would have stood and fought after a brief huddle. The point of the videos, though, is lost if we just automatically assume they route.
How many rounds does a six man team carry? Machine guns are not the most accurate of weapons. Of those rounds, how many would be solid hits, and disabling? What about the terrain? Where would the marines be set? How far away are the Persians when they come into view? Assuming the Persians just kept marching, how long would it have been before they reached the battle lines? How would the marines react to the second battlefront? Would they have any ammo left? At the point the marines do run out of ammo, would the Greeks be able to hold off the remaining Persians? Marines wear armor, but it's head and chest only, much less coverage than others, and not designed to excel in combat vs swords and spears, and they only have knives vs swords and spears carried by the Persians. The marines have deadly training, but the Persians are all battle hardened and trained for years, not months. Would the marines last in hand-to-hand combat?
...
Can we request a re-do?
One thing with psychology that is also skipped there is the potential for a combo of basic knowledge about the historical battle combined with a lot of other potential.
Headhunting is also something that would likely be a MAJOR thing, and since it's a mass combat battlefield, the commanders would be trying to stand out in dress and action combined with things like, potentially, even sleeping in separate areas...
The british during the revolutionary war were freaking out about the colonial irregulars pulling that kind of thing and both sides suffered from it during the US Civil War, and those were using the same weapons tech...even being slightly behind had it as a nasty thing during Vietnam with the Vietcong picking out officers to kill in the field.
Now, add in a heck of a lot more range (at a minimum) and lethality with systems...you're going to have another massive mess there for the Persians.
The persians end up with a massive command and control problem from the combo of what would appear to be magic death weapons combined with their leadership being wiped out...
Personally, I would have thought that just a squad might be a tad understrength. A platoon or full company would have been a better choice.
1. Polish Winged Hussars at 1453 Siege of Constantinople
2. Norwegian Nuclear Sabotage, but with modern British SAS
3. American Ironclad ships at Trafalgar
4. A mechanized infantry battalion of the present-day British Army in the Battle of Singapore (or maybe Battle of Malaya as a whole).
5. Gulf War-era Iraqi Army's Hammurabi Division in the battle that would've been Sack of Baghdad in RL
6. Modern heli and VTOL carriers of present-day Japanese Navy (and its battlegroup) in the Battle of Midway/Philippine Sea/Mariana
7. A company of T-90s in First Battle of Kiev (WW2)
8. Khwarazmian with a battalion of HIMARS vs the Mongols
The only thing that would make this a different scenario other than mystic is the fact that even though modern weaponry is very effective in its ballistic capabilities, there are technical issues regarding modern-day weapons. These issues can include things such as cyclic rates of the firearms, the reloading of such firearms, and the sheer number of enemy which could possibly continue to rush through even a small Gap such as presented.
Should the enemy feel that they could push through and maybe believe in their own gods more strongly than the ones they believe they are fighting they might actually have the sheer numbers to be able to push through and overwhelm the superior firepower of the ballistic weapons in which the Marines possess.
Your channel popped up and i thought...these 'what if' are ridiculous,Bizzare and dumb and im not wasting my time with 'what if' i will take regular 'history'.
Well....im binge watching now!! These videos are EXTREMELY FASCINATING!! I love the vudeos!
How would a squad of Marines do in the same battle, well being turned into a squad of porcupines springs to mind , unless they were sheltering under some Spartan shields when all those arrows blotted out the skies .
Next scenario: an entire US Navy carrier fleet vs Ug the Neanderthal
Julius Caesar Army he invaded Briton with the second time vs a British battle of towton army or Julius Caesar (with army he had against vercingeterix) vs either Hannibal or Attila the Hun?
“We’ll be surrounded”, “good, they can’t get away then.”
The " hot gates " .... Sounds appropriate 👍
And grenades.....but you 8:52 limit there ammo already....and Mark4....
Love the alternate history videos. Always so interesting.
Please keep it coming with the “What If’s”. With modern American Military against past engagements.
"A friend to all is a machine gun." Aristotle
I never seen you before but I subscribed instantly, I’m pretty sure we’re gonna get along GREAT
Well done. Always enjoy these videos a lot.
the sound of automatic fire alone would scare the heck out of anyone other than the marines
The Spartans would have to be conditioned to firearms going off around them or they could panic as well.
“Bringing a knife to a drone fight…” 😂😂😂 hilarious and subtle!
The potential for storytelling in scenarios like these are massive, especially regarding the aftermath.
But yeah, most modern equipment (vehicles especially) would face the problem of maintenance/fuel/ammunition in the _spec-TACULARLY_ unlikely scenario of the enemy overcoming the terror and charging anyway instead of routing.
Well done. I think you've done a good job of making this one as engaging as possible.
Great video. Love this stuff.
What could an WW1 A7V Tank accomplish at the battle of tannenber 1410? It's a big time difference, but they would probably not see that kind of early tank as magic or supernatural, they had cannons and knew how gunpowder shots sounded. The tank would also not be completely invincible, as it had big window-like openings and was pretty slow and known for having technical difficulties.
not to mention that it would run out of ammunition fairly quickly
I quote a sentance out of the film Zulu Dawn: "But bullets run out, and those bloody spears don't". A perfect example is the battle of Isandlwana to see if modern arms are superior to spears. The answer is no. Not if the marines are outnumbered.
These hypotheticals are fun and you do a great job with psychological breakdown,, your a brilliant character 🙂
Love his word choice "Divine intervention", *me time travels and brings an M24OB* taste some divine intervention
I’m excited for this video!
The anime called "gate" shows just how overwhelming a modern military force/squad would be against medieval warfare
Imagine the sound of the machine guns. Without context, the Persians would only be able to guess what made those sounds as their comrades died. The war stories from this hypothetical encounter would be harrowing.
Yep they’d basically see bright flashes in the distance and then here what they see/interpret as rapid fire thunder. And if the marines were using tracers oh boy that would be even scarier
Request: Could a squadron of modern jet fighters alter the outcome of Pearl Harbor?
Nice vide,, thank you.
Could you maybe do a what if Medieval Heavy Knights were involved at Thermopyalae?
Another great addition to the series.
a squad of marines would conquer the world in that era
They’d run out of ammo
Do an alternate history battle with a tank in the next community and video.
@@CFC-xi8dzThey don't need ammo, the average marine has a college degree and practical experience in all fields of construction and engineering..... Mostly because there isn't a single marine that hasn't been voluntold to help army corps of engineers or maintainers when ever something heavy needs to be moved around or somebody needs to hold the very very dangerous wires, at any rate they quickly learn a thing or two, Plus you know they are all goddamn nerds, why do you think half of them have WH40k patches somewhere on their armor, getting thrown back into the classical era along with the rest of their squad is literally the wettest of the wet dreams.
Now let's look at them in the context of being back in the classical era, you basically have a sizable group of sages who seemingly have infinite knowledge regarding every single concept in the mortal world, not only that they are still Marines so they are the single most lethal thing that exists in the world, They would tear a Spartan in half in 29 different ways before he even figured out what the f*** was going on.
In a single year this guy's could turn a small nearly barbarian city state into a world superpower just by using the bessemer process to mass produce steel and steel weapons.
I mean what the hell is an Athenian Phalanx going to do against even as low as 50 heavy infantry man Clad from head to toe in high carbon steel half plate and armed with pole axes that can smash trough copper and bronze like f****** tissue paper.
What the hell are Persian archers going to do against recurved bows, scorpions and onagers from the God damn Roman era.
I know we love to put everything before the gun into this generalized category of primitive weapons, But there are such massive differences in the capabilities of the bronze age classical era weapons against something like the Roman eras, Hell even just during the existence of Rome there is such a ridiculous difference in capacity between something like the pre-reforms Republican Roman military equipment against the imperial Roman equipment against the Byzantine equipment.
And this guys would you know likelihood know all of them and could recreate all of them, The mass production of steel alone would already render them absolutely invincible but the knowledge of Even the basics of how steel armour and weapons are supposed to work and look combined with the actual knowledge on weapon making of the people of the era under their command would make them such an incredibly powerful force.
I mean they don't even need to know how to make Shane mail They just need to explain what chainmail is and One of their armorers will eventually figure it out with their help. It wouldn't even be a long process, people are smart after all and just knowing how something is supposed to look when it comes to cold weapons means that you already have the blueprint for it on your head.
@@CFC-xi8dz they could use their knowledge of historical events to carve out a nation for themselves.
@@CFC-xi8dznot before they conquered several nations maybe even an empire. Plus the ability to target kings from about a mile away.
I doubt it would be useful to fire randomly into the crowds. You might mow the front just to scare them after but the real benefit would be to take out leaders of the enemy army. You could pretty much just eliminate Xerxes with any rifle. He was probably close enough to shoot pretty easily and was on top of a hill.
Great evaluation.
Excellent work bringing the psychological effect into the equation.
Seeing this on my feed and the first thought I had was “hell yeah”
How many causality’s do you think a forward observer with HIMARS and/or MLRS would inflict on Persians or Boudica’s force?
If you added any type of rocket artillery.HIMARS and/or MLRS then the battle would be over.Way faster.
I really liked how you broke this down. The casualties on the Persian side would be high, but because of the ensuing route, they would be lower than the actual battle 2500 years ago. Also, with their new found weapon, one might expect a Greek invasion of the East. Once the survivors stumbled back to the Persian capitol to warn the people what was coming, it would trigger a mass surrender before the Greeks even got halfway across Anatolia. I could even see some of the more ambitious Persians offering to help the Greeks in securing the Empire. The question is what will the Greeks (marines) do when they run out of ammo? The scenario here would have to be reimagined.
Looks like I just got first comment. Gotta say Keep up the great work, I've enjoyed your work dude!
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” Arthur C. Clark
Imagine hearing a gunshot for the first time only as a full grown man with no preconception of the technology.
I would say this would largely depend on the amount of ammo the Marines had on hand, because in that time there would be no way to make more…Once they were out of ammo, they;d have been at a severe disadvantage.
The British were the first to use a machine gun against people armed with shields,spears, bows and arrows in their African colonies. The effect was devastating and slaughtered these African tribes in combat.
For the next video could you maybe do something a bit closer in time period like maybe having a British armor company present at the battle of the Somme?
Gyro MRE's? Like we said at Khe Sanh - "..All they got was the ammo dump... the beer's o.k.!"
U.S.S. Washington and South Dokata vs the Battle of Jutland.
A machine gun squad also carries several M4-M16s as well as grenades and anti personnel mines.
I really enjoy this sort of content!
I think one of the biggest things the marines bring to this battle is hindsight, they know about the betrayal.
What about ancillary systems? Para flares would scare the crap out of ancient peoples,
Tripflares, binos/optics, the mentioned squad radios, sidearms, do Marine MG squads carry claymores? M72 or AT4? Modern medkits, modern tourniquet could save greek troops.
Great topic, make more hypothetical videos like 6 scout snipers vs a 100 vikings
Go less, make it a single squad of 1920s Greek soldiers that’d be cool but not overpowered.
The question on depends on if the marines get unlimited supplies. If not, they'd form a stationary no-go zone for a little while. If so, they'd form a mobile no-go zone.
The soldiers on both sides would be shocked by the sound of the gunfire. That sound didn't exist back then. They'd be puzzled why men fell and bled without a slinger or archer nearby. And where were the arrows or tell-tale sounds of sling bullets whizzing by? It's possible the Persians would say, "bad juju today, we'll come back tomorrow" and leave.
I remember reading a book titled" Guns of the South" interesting read that was.
Dan Daly did his own version of this, we know the result
You had to put the most aggressive troops in history
Introducing modern weapons into ancient battles with huge numbers of combatants would be more effective with snipers taking out the enemy's officer corp.
here's a more reasonable what if for you. what if the Maus was built/injected into WW1? how would having the massive superheavy influence tank designs, doctrines, and battle tactics for a war where the idea had only just become a thing?
I can see the absurdity of the machine gun squad v. Hoplites. The smoke. The thunder. The whizzing of bullets. The Greeks and the Persians would believe that mighty Zeus has come down from Olympus to protect the Greeks.
Where they might have been even more useful if some of them were placed on that mountain pass which would prevent the flanking manoeuvre.
I think you got the point and area target accuracies mixed up. Point target means hitting a specific individual target - in this context a person. An area target means hitting something in that area. At range machine guns are intended to suppress a ‘beaten zone’ ie the area which its bullets will land within.
What if KCD Henry had an M16 with enough ammo to never need worry about it?
The argument that must be made here is that a modern fire squad would recognize the technological disparity and become extremely selective with their shots, conserving ammo. The first shot would be a single 203 round that would route and disperse the entire first formation sent towards them. The second shot would be a single 203 round at its maximum effective range into the tightest cluster available.
These two shots alone may have led to an offer of reconsidered negotiation.
If not... single rifle rounds peppering the command squads from a kilometer away would easily break any army from that period. What ever show of power their commanders could make would pale next to holes just appearing in thier lieutenants and standard bearers.
It would certainly have slowed it down enough for more reinforcements to arrive
Can you do a video that basically encompasses the scenario set up in the 1980 film 'The Final Countdown'?
The USS Nimitz, CVN-68 gets mysteriously transported back in time to the day before the Japanese fleet attacked Pearl Harbor. Due to time paradoxes, the ship adhered to a 'no interference policy' and did not take part in the defense.
How would the 1980's version of the USS Nimitz effect the course of world war 2?
If I'm not mistaken, the girl had an offensive nuclear capacity and some impressive jets, which can basically be fueled by any flammable liquid. The reactor could stay powered for decades without refueling. It's possible that the technological revolution it's presence would spark could bootstrap the 1940's US into the atomic age fast enough to refine usable nucear fuel for it. Perhaps some of the crewmembers would even live to see their 'second 1980'
I think the JDSF had a scenario like this, it may have been after they went through the Gate
it was pretty much one sided, like the united allied army got turned into fertilizer before they even went half way to the hill
This is my BOOM STICK!
It's meaningful to me Parry! It's meaningful to me!
Entertainment is a perfectly valid meaning
Of course the Ancient Spartans would naturally see the Devil Dogs as reinforcements and think nothing of it.
You should do one about the Alamo
I am once again asking for a modern day military unit to be deployed to the Gallipoli campaign, dealers choice as to the specific battle and unit
You are right. This type of fight is as interesting as putting a WWII airfleet vs the Zulu army in 1879.
You forgot that every member of the squad say for the MG would have M4/M16 with 320/204s
"SPARTANS! LAY DOWN YOUR WEAPONS!"
*BANG!*
Dilios: "The men of Zeus brings down their thunder"
"Hot Gates!" me after eating chili.
Our arrows will Block out the sun.
Marine:Ooooh Rahhh.