you touched on it, but newer games making it illegal to disengage is a big factor. if putting your opponent in a blockstring is always a bad idea that feels stifling
I think the big point of expressiveness is the amount of MEANINGFUL decisions a player has to make throughout a match, because a lot of those decisions can be moot if during any of those decision points the risk/reward is heavily favored to one "optimal" choice. Your point on meter usage is a good example. I personally like to use combo choice myself. Going for a highly damaging, but inconsistent and execution-taxing combo versus a suboptimal but safe one is a meaningful choice. Or maybe sacrificing damage in your combo for a hard knockdown to set up oki, or maybe giving that up for more corner carry. Or even gambling on a reset instead of cashing out with meter. All these are interesting choices imo that are a universal form of player expression that I feel like don't get talked about as much
Facts! That's why that expression should be controlled. People usually target their own feelings on what they WERE able to do or saw in EVO highlights, whereas 99 % of the time people use fewer moves and express themselves by decision making
Looking forward to you talking about situations where you can't convert off of all your pokes for the millionth time (unironically, it's very interesting lol)
different levels of reward is really fun imo. the POSSIBILITY to convert can always be there but if every hit is an automatic kill that gets pretty boring
It's a good discussion. Less reward off of long pokes, such as no knockdown, is an important aspect when considering their strength. They may have strong neutral but get barely any reward off of their broken neutral tools, therefore lessening the blow of playing against them.
I think it's interesting mainly because most games don't even have this concept anymore lol. GGXX and Xrd have tons of this, but most Strive characters have some way to get a meterless KD off of their main pokes, even if it sucks ass
I remember watching you fight Yume years ago. I saw the struggle + crowds reaction everytime you lost. I was just learning the terms of fg at the time and just assumed it was against Mitsuru's favor/bad mu opposed to player skill bc i saw you play consistently well in other matches. Had no idea tht Aegis was OD or how crazy of a player Yume really was until you talked abt it recently.
I think something important about not getting combos off of all your hits in a game like Xrd or XX is that, even if you play a character like Johnny, Sin, Elphelt etc who DO convert off most their hits, you still get the chance to interact when you fight a character that doesn't. BOTH players get to show what they're focusing on and what they're aiming for in those situations where Sol lands a meterless fS 5H
There one reason that makes me drop Melty Blood Type Lumina is not really the fact that you can make combos from every normal, but rather the fact that its allways posible to go for the optimal and 99% of the time, theres no reason not to go for it. That with the fact that some characters feel very similar to each other makes me go to Current Code in a heart beat
having 500+ hours in the game, there's tons of player expression excluding combos. other than that, how do characters all play the same? ill admit the routes are pretty linear, but considering how much movement options you have, (plus character specific ones, like ushi or aoko) how rebeats and general pressure works, and moon drive, i don't see how characters feel "very similar"
@@box... Movement option is a melty thing, not just a type lumina factor, in Current code you felt the diference beatwin moving with different characters, some had a slow airdash that goed far, other had startup in their dash or a step dash, arcueid had a side switch, etc. Also, a lot of characters either a way to control space or something that made them move, but rarely bot, some had a ton of specials specific uses or that helped you open up your opponent or a few pick with multiple purposes, and that with the general mechanics being super robust made CC just feel distinct beatwin characters in pressure, since some required specific tech to beat consistently or a general use of mechanics and the like; FVsion literally just goes and does special into special and cancels that into divekick that are plus and if you don't use shield or Ex Guard, you are stuck. Type lumina gives all characters: a reversal (including moon skills), a move to close the gap, a combo finisher that leaves them in their best oki and a special preasure tool. All presure can be summed up to press X amount of buttons and then reverse beat or do a special to go plus and you only way to get them out 80% of the time is just to risk dying, use shield and start the rps or use moondrive, becuse almost all characters have that one super that leaves them plus. They feel like i could just grab anyone and do decently since save for a few cases, this people all have the same general feeling and even getting in depth you don't feel like you are discovering something new about the character, more like you just are being told what this move does and that you have to use it always in this situation.
I don't actually use the term player expression, but if I did, I'd probably use it in reference to being able to/doing the things I want to do or that I think are cool--particularly when there are other options you can do. The easiest example of this would just be combos in general since there is usually a combo that does the most damage, a combo that is less like drop/less execution heavy, and a combo that leads to the best situation after it finishes. One of the things I do in every fighting game is I like setting up high risk/high reward anti-mash situations where I sit so close to an opponent that blocking would get me hit but standing at neutral puts me juuuuuuuuuust outside of their range. Also been waiting on this video. Thought you'd go a little harder tbh lol.
LK and I actually had a very educational back and forth in his comments awhile back about this topic. I just gotta feel like I'm expressing myself man. I play Lei in Tekken, I played Reptile in MKX for his disappearing shenanigans. If the game feels too restrictive to me, if I'm doing the same things over and over like everyone else (SF5, season 3) then I'm out.
It's interesting that Strive's more constrained gatlings made it easier for the designers to enforce the "light hits lead to low damage, big hits lead to big damage or advantageous situations" rule, compared to Xrd. But it's at the cost of decreased diversity of combo routes. It makes the game easier to design, but it also makes the long tail of new and novel situations much shorter. Normally this would reduce a game's lifespan among the general audience, but in an era when new updates can come out every 3-6 months to shake up the game and create novelty for players, it's actually a great design. Good video by the way, but it would benefit from a clear framing of the main points at the beginning.
Guilty Gear Accent Core and Rev2 have multiple tools and ways to use those tools that dictate different playstyles based on what you decided to actually use and the way you wanted to. In other words I think that does lead to player expression in a very subtle way, Tekken also does that and I believe it's an 4th factor
I think that player expression is less so about the number of tools but the number of ways you can use a tool. A great example is Anji's butterfly. In Strive Anji's butterfly is almost exclusively used on knock-down which, granted, is its most import feature but in AC+R it can of course be used in may differ ways. In AC+R you can use it I neutral to cover the ground space fairly safely when compared to Strive, you can use it as a combo tech punisher, you can spend some meter to make it faster which allows for oki after further away knock-downs but it can also be used to setup hard-to- blockables since it hits overhead. With Strive I am only able to express myself in 3 ways when I have the opponent knocked down, butterfly, meaty, or block. In AC+R I have a plethora of options because the tools in that game can be applied in many ways. Ultimately, I feel like Strive and a lot of other modern fighting games have made tools very linear instead of having moves feel like a radar chart of strengths and weaknesses (Ex. Ac+R Butterfly Great:Oki, Good: Neutral and tech trap, Bad: melee(still do sometimes, very funny way to start offense))
I think especially for 1v1 fighting games, that point regarding having more tools and larger movelists really makes people feel as if the game has more room for expression. It always feels good to work moves that people dont use as much into your setups or gameplan, and it make players feel like their Sol is different from other Sols for example.
For me expression is when something happened, and theres no optimal followup decision to it, and the game lets you choose from many And ofc character/team building, like dbfz with assists and 3 chars and sfv with different vskills and triggers to choose from
Neat video and some great points brought up Here just my two cents though: - ) "Player expression" coming from the character select screen (aka multiple characters + assist to choose from, grooves, moons etc.) are a special kind of expression in that once you specialize or even just start the round, these options don't matter anymore since you are locked in your specific choice and are forced "to play that way" - ) Your method 3 "selection" is valid imo and the reason it doesn't get talked about is due to it being very dependant on the knowledge someone has about the game already. Someone new to fighting games won't necessarily be able to tell different playstyles apart. I think this was easier in older GGs because the toolsets were simply bigger and the usage of certain moves could vary greatly between players. Whereas now, everything is build with mostly one specific purpose in mind. The moves on characters are too intentionally designed. The boundaries are often so strict that you rarely get the opportunity to think outside the box and find different applications. If we take your definition of "selection" a bit further it also implies that nearly every game has "player expression". Even games like CS, since no two people play like carbon copies of each other. Some might be more aggressive than others, some more reserved, some decide to hold on to resources and others like to dunk them immediately to get an early edge and snowball from there. While I think "selection" like you described is worth talking about, it's missing the distinctive line between "expressing yourself" and simply different player behaviour.
If only every game had explanations like these instead of default "press right to go right" or "press two attack buttons to FD" - ok great, what should I do with that? "crickets"
I've been playing a lot of Fatal Fury, and I can hardly imagine a game that allows more player expression than Real Bout Fatal Fury 2. It's astounding. +R levels of expression. Awesome game.
Over the years, I have come to interpret "player expression" as "a situation that happens when a character or team has such overpowered options at their disposal that players have the option of selecting sub-optimal options knowing that the overpowered ones will make up the gap". i.e. "Watch me express myself with my Morrigan/Doom/Ghost Rider team!"
I haven't been in the fighting game community to long I'm not sure explicitly what all this means but I've always felt there was a lot of individualism in at least the ones I've been playing granted I only play with friends mostly
method 3 needs to exist to have a game at all. method 1 & 2 are meaningless without tangible divergence. the thing people lk included seem to forget is its not the number of tools you have that matters its how flexible they are and weather or not you are allowed to use them to achieve different results. the absolute easiest example of Player expression in fighting games imo is when youre allowed to move before round start. in those situations theres rarely an actual 100% correct optimal answer to "what should i do now" you are quite literally ONLY expressing you're own intent but then theres games that dont do that and youre forced to face round start as presented. neither is inherently more engaging but the former is inherently more expressive.
I feel player expression seems to me to just as for a more hard to find an optimal strategy in a game. Players don’t like hearing “just do this combo” or “just play this way”. If the game is easy, it’s a lot easier to see where things go wrong and player gravitate to a more common player style as it wins (even if they find it less fun). I feel part of the feeling of modern games being less expressive is we are fast at optimizing parts of the game faster and resources are more common. It’s kind of like how people felt they could be more creative with mtg deck and express themselves and now with the internet and deck guides, more spiky players will net deck and try to find very small optimizations.
Yo I don't know if this happened on stream/twitter or not (cuz I don't watch any streams, and fuck twitter) but is there gonna be any reply to the diss track that jiyuna dropped on TH-cam a couple days ago?
Do you feel like player expression vanishes as the game ages? Like when I started strive there was a thousand ways I could RC to get a certain situation, but now people know all these tricks so all my tricks are basicaly worthless. (god i miss the days i could blue RC into a grab without getting teched)
Someone above said it better but its really just about optimal strategies being limited, even if player expression might be varied, you'll never see it if overcentralised strategies/playstyles dominate pro and/or casual play plus it's not player expression thats vanishing in that situation but just players getting better and the community space demanding better strategies - you can still express yourself by doing neutral brc > throw but its an inherently lacking option and players won't hold it lol
14:30 "look at the move list!" *chuckles in bloated 3D fighter* Edit: Gonna continue to shill for 3D games here for a second, in method 3 you talk about how conversion ability defines player expression and this is exactly why the RPS in 3D games is so much trickier than people realize. There are typically no chain cancels/special cancels so literally every single hit you earn is a different situation, with various braching RPS situations you need to be ready for. A lot of the times only large counterhits or slow launchers that require a precise whiff punish lead to real launches, so a lot of the time it's just like "okay I landed this poke and now I'm +4, now what?" And if it's a game with really tricky strong universal defensive options like soulcalibur for example, the situation immediately gets quite complex. I really wish SC6 got more love, that game is pretty awesome aside from the abysmal netcode.
It's too abstract of a concept to give it one definition. Depending on what games you play and what this sport means to you, your idea of what player expression is will differ from mine. If you ask me, maybe I am reading it too literally, but to me player expression is simply a synonym for identity. You don't play my character the same way I do, I prefer different combos and you prefer different approaches in neutral. We have our separate identities, and the game allows for us to both be successful despite playing the same character entirely differently. This is my problem with these recent triple A games, yeah? They are MUGENified beyond recognition, you can always do one optimal route off of any hit and being good means only knowing how to do these very specific combos off of every single confirm. You see a move and you immediately know what it is meant to be used for. If you try to use it in any other context, no, you are playing the character wrong, it won't work. You compare one [character] main to the other top level [character] main and it boils down to them having the exact same playstyle, but one of them has better reactions than the other. I miss when we could make profiles for players, such as "the legendary [name]'s [character]", "playing like [name]", "that's the [name] strategy", etc. Now it's "he's a good [character]", "my [character] is good", "I can play [character]". But I do not know much, that is all I know.
Good stuff LK. Getting down to the heart of the phrase that’s been plaguing the community for a while now. Maybe now the boomers will re-evaluate their stance on player expression.
I hate how people use player expression. People use it like game I like has player expression and game I don’t like doesn’t have player expression. Every fighting game has player expression because player expression is just your choices in game
I feel like in a lot of cases it boils down to people pretending neutral or oki doesn't exist and go "oh everybody uses the same bnb optimal combo why don't they do something cool and flashy". it's people who live in training mode who want more funny combos to post honestly
Yes, the term "expression" is only there just to give more weight to people's complaints about certain games, and even they know it, but not gonna admit it.
The problem with the term "expression" is that ultimately, all people want when they complain about "lack of expression" are technical stuff like tools and options, and the term "expression" gives it an artistic connotation to it that doesn't belong it. Because while making video games is an art form, playing video games isn't, even when you play them on a more serious, strategic and competitive level rather than just in a casual, go-and-have-fun manner. Like you said, people just need to to say they want more tools, rather than saying that "there is no expression in that game", because that point they trying to use unrelated terms just to give their argument more weight so they can get what they want, and that's not how it should be done.
That Max video ruined the credibility of basically all people talking about player expression and emergent gameplay because his example was fucking DNF Duel, a game more stiff and limited than Granblue
Haven't watched yet, but effort plays a big role. People are extremely lazy. They hit Angel rank, switch over to SF for the first time, do 15 mins of training mode before getting whopped in Ranked. Then blame SF because "Karin can't express herself cause she ain't dlc."
you touched on it, but newer games making it illegal to disengage is a big factor. if putting your opponent in a blockstring is always a bad idea that feels stifling
I think the big point of expressiveness is the amount of MEANINGFUL decisions a player has to make throughout a match, because a lot of those decisions can be moot if during any of those decision points the risk/reward is heavily favored to one "optimal" choice.
Your point on meter usage is a good example. I personally like to use combo choice myself. Going for a highly damaging, but inconsistent and execution-taxing combo versus a suboptimal but safe one is a meaningful choice. Or maybe sacrificing damage in your combo for a hard knockdown to set up oki, or maybe giving that up for more corner carry. Or even gambling on a reset instead of cashing out with meter. All these are interesting choices imo that are a universal form of player expression that I feel like don't get talked about as much
Facts! That's why that expression should be controlled. People usually target their own feelings on what they WERE able to do or saw in EVO highlights, whereas 99 % of the time people use fewer moves and express themselves by decision making
Looking forward to you talking about situations where you can't convert off of all your pokes for the millionth time (unironically, it's very interesting lol)
As a KOF XV player, this is very relatable. Krohnen 2C or 6A into absolutely nothing is just another day at work.
different levels of reward is really fun imo. the POSSIBILITY to convert can always be there but if every hit is an automatic kill that gets pretty boring
It's a good discussion. Less reward off of long pokes, such as no knockdown, is an important aspect when considering their strength. They may have strong neutral but get barely any reward off of their broken neutral tools, therefore lessening the blow of playing against them.
I think it's interesting mainly because most games don't even have this concept anymore lol. GGXX and Xrd have tons of this, but most Strive characters have some way to get a meterless KD off of their main pokes, even if it sucks ass
Thats when expression is visible the most.
I remember watching you fight Yume years ago. I saw the struggle + crowds reaction everytime you lost. I was just learning the terms of fg at the time and just assumed it was against Mitsuru's favor/bad mu opposed to player skill bc i saw you play consistently well in other matches. Had no idea tht Aegis was OD or how crazy of a player Yume really was until you talked abt it recently.
3:45 This confirms for me that LK's preferred character archetype is onee-san type (Mitsuru, Yuzuriha, Katalina, Robin).
I think something important about not getting combos off of all your hits in a game like Xrd or XX is that, even if you play a character like Johnny, Sin, Elphelt etc who DO convert off most their hits, you still get the chance to interact when you fight a character that doesn't. BOTH players get to show what they're focusing on and what they're aiming for in those situations where Sol lands a meterless fS 5H
For real.
Thank you for the new video Mr. Rizzknight.
My favourite way that players express themselves is live-tweeting their salt from the loser’s bracket.
There one reason that makes me drop Melty Blood Type Lumina is not really the fact that you can make combos from every normal, but rather the fact that its allways posible to go for the optimal and 99% of the time, theres no reason not to go for it.
That with the fact that some characters feel very similar to each other makes me go to Current Code in a heart beat
yes, this was my issue with that game as well
having 500+ hours in the game, there's tons of player expression excluding combos. other than that, how do characters all play the same?
ill admit the routes are pretty linear, but considering how much movement options you have, (plus character specific ones, like ushi or aoko) how rebeats and general pressure works, and moon drive, i don't see how characters feel "very similar"
@@box... Movement option is a melty thing, not just a type lumina factor, in Current code you felt the diference beatwin moving with different characters, some had a slow airdash that goed far, other had startup in their dash or a step dash, arcueid had a side switch, etc. Also, a lot of characters either a way to control space or something that made them move, but rarely bot, some had a ton of specials specific uses or that helped you open up your opponent or a few pick with multiple purposes, and that with the general mechanics being super robust made CC just feel distinct beatwin characters in pressure, since some required specific tech to beat consistently or a general use of mechanics and the like; FVsion literally just goes and does special into special and cancels that into divekick that are plus and if you don't use shield or Ex Guard, you are stuck.
Type lumina gives all characters: a reversal (including moon skills), a move to close the gap, a combo finisher that leaves them in their best oki and a special preasure tool. All presure can be summed up to press X amount of buttons and then reverse beat or do a special to go plus and you only way to get them out 80% of the time is just to risk dying, use shield and start the rps or use moondrive, becuse almost all characters have that one super that leaves them plus. They feel like i could just grab anyone and do decently since save for a few cases, this people all have the same general feeling and even getting in depth you don't feel like you are discovering something new about the character, more like you just are being told what this move does and that you have to use it always in this situation.
As always, thank you for this blessing, my Lord.
I don't actually use the term player expression, but if I did, I'd probably use it in reference to being able to/doing the things I want to do or that I think are cool--particularly when there are other options you can do. The easiest example of this would just be combos in general since there is usually a combo that does the most damage, a combo that is less like drop/less execution heavy, and a combo that leads to the best situation after it finishes. One of the things I do in every fighting game is I like setting up high risk/high reward anti-mash situations where I sit so close to an opponent that blocking would get me hit but standing at neutral puts me juuuuuuuuuust outside of their range.
Also been waiting on this video. Thought you'd go a little harder tbh lol.
Good to see Athletic Greens! I was literally gonna buy this for my family and myself a few weeks ago
LK and I actually had a very educational back and forth in his comments awhile back about this topic. I just gotta feel like I'm expressing myself man. I play Lei in Tekken, I played Reptile in MKX for his disappearing shenanigans. If the game feels too restrictive to me, if I'm doing the same things over and over like everyone else (SF5, season 3) then I'm out.
Method 3 is the big one! When you're makins split-second decisions, you can't avoid expressing yourself, no matter what you try.
I dunno, a confirm is a confirm.
It's interesting that Strive's more constrained gatlings made it easier for the designers to enforce the "light hits lead to low damage, big hits lead to big damage or advantageous situations" rule, compared to Xrd.
But it's at the cost of decreased diversity of combo routes. It makes the game easier to design, but it also makes the long tail of new and novel situations much shorter.
Normally this would reduce a game's lifespan among the general audience, but in an era when new updates can come out every 3-6 months to shake up the game and create novelty for players, it's actually a great design.
Good video by the way, but it would benefit from a clear framing of the main points at the beginning.
Guilty Gear Accent Core and Rev2 have multiple tools and ways to use those tools that dictate different playstyles based on what you decided to actually use and the way you wanted to. In other words I think that does lead to player expression in a very subtle way, Tekken also does that and I believe it's an 4th factor
I used to hate fighting games because of a lack of expression but now I kinda see it.
The long awaited "expression" video. Can't believe it's finally here
I think that player expression is less so about the number of tools but the number of ways you can use a tool. A great example is Anji's butterfly. In Strive Anji's butterfly is almost exclusively used on knock-down which, granted, is its most import feature but in AC+R it can of course be used in may differ ways. In AC+R you can use it I neutral to cover the ground space fairly safely when compared to Strive, you can use it as a combo tech punisher, you can spend some meter to make it faster which allows for oki after further away knock-downs but it can also be used to setup hard-to- blockables since it hits overhead.
With Strive I am only able to express myself in 3 ways when I have the opponent knocked down, butterfly, meaty, or block. In AC+R I have a plethora of options because the tools in that game can be applied in many ways.
Ultimately, I feel like Strive and a lot of other modern fighting games have made tools very linear instead of having moves feel like a radar chart of strengths and weaknesses (Ex. Ac+R Butterfly Great:Oki, Good: Neutral and tech trap, Bad: melee(still do sometimes, very funny way to start offense))
I think especially for 1v1 fighting games, that point regarding having more tools and larger movelists really makes people feel as if the game has more room for expression.
It always feels good to work moves that people dont use as much into your setups or gameplan, and it make players feel like their Sol is different from other Sols for example.
For me expression is when something happened, and theres no optimal followup decision to it, and the game lets you choose from many
And ofc character/team building, like dbfz with assists and 3 chars and sfv with different vskills and triggers to choose from
15:55 banger alert👀
Huh cool videos recently man
LK with the Big Boy Sponsor, good job bro
my brain immediately went to bombos
sidewinders galore
So do we get soulless robo LK instead of robo Ky in strive?
Neat video and some great points brought up Here just my two cents though:
- ) "Player expression" coming from the character select screen (aka multiple characters + assist to choose from, grooves, moons etc.) are a special kind of expression in that once you specialize or even just start the round, these options don't matter anymore since you are locked in your specific choice and are forced "to play that way"
- ) Your method 3 "selection" is valid imo and the reason it doesn't get talked about is due to it being very dependant on the knowledge someone has about the game already.
Someone new to fighting games won't necessarily be able to tell different playstyles apart. I think this was easier in older GGs because the toolsets were simply bigger and the usage of certain moves could vary greatly between players. Whereas now, everything is build with mostly one specific purpose in mind. The moves on characters are too intentionally designed. The boundaries are often so strict that you rarely get the opportunity to think outside the box and find different applications.
If we take your definition of "selection" a bit further it also implies that nearly every game has "player expression". Even games like CS, since no two people play like carbon copies of each other. Some might be more aggressive than others, some more reserved, some decide to hold on to resources and others like to dunk them immediately to get an early edge and snowball from there.
While I think "selection" like you described is worth talking about, it's missing the distinctive line between "expressing yourself" and simply different player behaviour.
This could easily be a 2 hour video to explain ! Great job on this
If only every game had explanations like these instead of default "press right to go right" or "press two attack buttons to FD" - ok great, what should I do with that? "crickets"
Bro you’re in Wolfe Glicks video about the Pokémon gym
I've been playing a lot of Fatal Fury, and I can hardly imagine a game that allows more player expression than Real Bout Fatal Fury 2. It's astounding. +R levels of expression. Awesome game.
Ok boomer
Over the years, I have come to interpret "player expression" as "a situation that happens when a character or team has such overpowered options at their disposal that players have the option of selecting sub-optimal options knowing that the overpowered ones will make up the gap". i.e. "Watch me express myself with my Morrigan/Doom/Ghost Rider team!"
Nope
I haven't been in the fighting game community to long I'm not sure explicitly what all this means but I've always felt there was a lot of individualism in at least the ones I've been playing granted I only play with friends mostly
method 3 needs to exist to have a game at all. method 1 & 2 are meaningless without tangible divergence. the thing people lk included seem to forget is its not the number of tools you have that matters its how flexible they are and weather or not you are allowed to use them to achieve different results. the absolute easiest example of Player expression in fighting games imo is when youre allowed to move before round start. in those situations theres rarely an actual 100% correct optimal answer to "what should i do now" you are quite literally ONLY expressing you're own intent but then theres games that dont do that and youre forced to face round start as presented. neither is inherently more engaging but the former is inherently more expressive.
I feel player expression seems to me to just as for a more hard to find an optimal strategy in a game. Players don’t like hearing “just do this combo” or “just play this way”. If the game is easy, it’s a lot easier to see where things go wrong and player gravitate to a more common player style as it wins (even if they find it less fun).
I feel part of the feeling of modern games being less expressive is we are fast at optimizing parts of the game faster and resources are more common.
It’s kind of like how people felt they could be more creative with mtg deck and express themselves and now with the internet and deck guides, more spiky players will net deck and try to find very small optimizations.
athletic greens in a fgc vid? when we getting the LK lifting streams now?
I always thought you that you believed player expression was a myth lol
My bad for giving you so little credit LK.
I personally express myself by throwing the hell outta people, shmoving, and/or bullying people for mashing :)
Yo I don't know if this happened on stream/twitter or not (cuz I don't watch any streams, and fuck twitter) but is there gonna be any reply to the diss track that jiyuna dropped on TH-cam a couple days ago?
Lk, what's a fight stick that works on ps4 and ps5. I bought a ps5 but they have nothing officially saying *this* stick works with ps5
Do you feel like player expression vanishes as the game ages? Like when I started strive there was a thousand ways I could RC to get a certain situation, but now people know all these tricks so all my tricks are basicaly worthless. (god i miss the days i could blue RC into a grab without getting teched)
Someone above said it better but its really just about optimal strategies being limited, even if player expression might be varied, you'll never see it if overcentralised strategies/playstyles dominate pro and/or casual play
plus it's not player expression thats vanishing in that situation but just players getting better and the community space demanding better strategies - you can still express yourself by doing neutral brc > throw but its an inherently lacking option and players won't hold it lol
ooh Lk the robin main
14:30 "look at the move list!" *chuckles in bloated 3D fighter*
Edit: Gonna continue to shill for 3D games here for a second, in method 3 you talk about how conversion ability defines player expression and this is exactly why the RPS in 3D games is so much trickier than people realize. There are typically no chain cancels/special cancels so literally every single hit you earn is a different situation, with various braching RPS situations you need to be ready for. A lot of the times only large counterhits or slow launchers that require a precise whiff punish lead to real launches, so a lot of the time it's just like "okay I landed this poke and now I'm +4, now what?" And if it's a game with really tricky strong universal defensive options like soulcalibur for example, the situation immediately gets quite complex. I really wish SC6 got more love, that game is pretty awesome aside from the abysmal netcode.
Who needs player expression when you can optimize and solve the game?
Bonjour!-
Why you gotta do the Spongebob Intro Pirate like that...
It's too abstract of a concept to give it one definition. Depending on what games you play and what this sport means to you, your idea of what player expression is will differ from mine.
If you ask me, maybe I am reading it too literally, but to me player expression is simply a synonym for identity. You don't play my character the same way I do, I prefer different combos and you prefer different approaches in neutral. We have our separate identities, and the game allows for us to both be successful despite playing the same character entirely differently.
This is my problem with these recent triple A games, yeah? They are MUGENified beyond recognition, you can always do one optimal route off of any hit and being good means only knowing how to do these very specific combos off of every single confirm. You see a move and you immediately know what it is meant to be used for. If you try to use it in any other context, no, you are playing the character wrong, it won't work. You compare one [character] main to the other top level [character] main and it boils down to them having the exact same playstyle, but one of them has better reactions than the other. I miss when we could make profiles for players, such as "the legendary [name]'s [character]", "playing like [name]", "that's the [name] strategy", etc. Now it's "he's a good [character]", "my [character] is good", "I can play [character]".
But I do not know much, that is all I know.
RizzKnight
Bonjour lord knight lol
Rizz or no rizz?
Methods 2 and 3 are not mutually exclusive
Those people will also probably not play Tekken
Good stuff LK. Getting down to the heart of the phrase that’s been plaguing the community for a while now. Maybe now the boomers will re-evaluate their stance on player expression.
I refuse.
Why are you Strive shills so opposed to having characters that aren't watered down, gatling combo,and more cool system mechanics to play with?
algo
love the vids
I hate how people use player expression. People use it like game I like has player expression and game I don’t like doesn’t have player expression.
Every fighting game has player expression because player expression is just your choices in game
I feel like in a lot of cases it boils down to people pretending neutral or oki doesn't exist and go "oh everybody uses the same bnb optimal combo why don't they do something cool and flashy". it's people who live in training mode who want more funny combos to post honestly
player expression is a meme
Someone gets it
Yes, the term "expression" is only there just to give more weight to people's complaints about certain games, and even they know it, but not gonna admit it.
Player expression is about as much of a muddied definition as "options"
Yo LK introduce me to your barber
The problem with the term "expression" is that ultimately, all people want when they complain about "lack of expression" are technical stuff like tools and options, and the term "expression" gives it an artistic connotation to it that doesn't belong it. Because while making video games is an art form, playing video games isn't, even when you play them on a more serious, strategic and competitive level rather than just in a casual, go-and-have-fun manner. Like you said, people just need to to say they want more tools, rather than saying that "there is no expression in that game", because that point they trying to use unrelated terms just to give their argument more weight so they can get what they want, and that's not how it should be done.
Ex-cetera
I haven’t watched it yet but every third word out of your mouth better be loose
That Max video ruined the credibility of basically all people talking about player expression and emergent gameplay because his example was fucking DNF Duel, a game more stiff and limited than Granblue
yo
man really does hate dbfz😭
Frieza still sucks really hard.
This is a scalding take, but I believe Smash Ultimate has the most player expression of any fighting game.
hold up, let him cook
@@saltyluigi4011 bro burned the food
Haven't watched yet, but effort plays a big role. People are extremely lazy. They hit Angel rank, switch over to SF for the first time, do 15 mins of training mode before getting whopped in Ranked. Then blame SF because "Karin can't express herself cause she ain't dlc."
So lazy he didn't even watch the video before commenting.