If i may ask a question (assuming it wasn’t asked before) what was the Axis, Allied, and International reaction to the sinking of the MV Wilhelm Gustloff by the soviet navy during operation Hannibal, Killing nearly 10k wounded soldiers and civilians?
An _After The Battle_ magazine issue from the 1980s examined the case of Slovik and compared his situation with many others convicted of desertion and sometimes sentenced to death. One bombardier left his aircraft before a mission over Germany and the plane took off without him. Another deserter headed for Paris, then under Allied control, and made a living from begging and stealing US Army goods (he joined a local organised crime network). Yet another was actually recommended for the Medal of Honor for behaviour in battle, but deserted afterwards. Unlike Slovik, none of these men were executed.
@@desertking3312”Ooh, look at me! I’m not a consumer, I’m so unique and better!” Nothing wrong with wanting a movie, man. It’s a great way to bring a real historical story to life and teach more people who wouldn’t be looking for it on their own.
Slovik was taken into custody and confined to the division stockade. The division's judge advocate, Lieutenant Colonel Henry Sommer, offered Slovik a third and final opportunity to rejoin his unit in exchange for the charges against him being dropped. He also offered to transfer Slovik to a different infantry regiment in the division where no one would know of his past, and he could start with a "clean slate." Slovik, still convinced that he would face only jail time (which he had already experienced and considered far more tolerable than combat), declined these offers, saying, "I've made up my mind. I'll take my court martial."
@@thepinkplushie Your right he had a good shot at survival, but statistically his odds were way better at the front. For as bloody as the war was, most soldiers who were in combat were not killed.
the context around Eddie Slovik is interesting. The US Army did give him at least three chances to agree to come back on the line, and he refused all three, maybe more. So then they executed him to serve as an example, since he was so blatantly and openly defiant. His stance may sound strange--certain death vs possible death on the front lines. Setting aside the possibility that he thought he'd be pardoned, it is worth noting that his unit was fighting in the Battle of the Hürtgen Forest, right on the Germany/France border, and essentially part of the Siegfried Line/Westwall. This battle is considered one of the Americans' greatest errors in Europe, and is more easily compared with a WWI-style meat grinder than anything else. The terrain negated every advantage the US had--armor, air, numbers, firepower. The forest was so thick that sometimes US units would get hopelessly lost and call in artillery fire missions of one round only so they could orient themselves based on the grid reference. It has also been compared to some of the worst fighting in the Vietnamese jungle decades later.
Every advantage? Armour? Ok. Numbers? Eh, kind of. But air and artillery? The Germans were surely not inclined to think so when they were getting peppered with rockets and bombs or cannon shells and mortar bombs. Trees make it more difficult to spot their positions, but their positions still end up being spotted. And then, trees offer no protection. They are concealment.
@@Briselance the weather was pretty bad for a lot of the battle, and as I said, the forest was so thick that units had to call in strikes just to figure out where they were. The US advantage there wasn't entirely negated but it was severely blunted compared to what it had been in more open country. Counter-battery fire, which the Americans had been especially good at, was also much more difficult to direct properly due to the thick forest. On top of that, there was intense pressure from above to push forward and take ground, which led to some of the worst US officer casualty rates in the European theater. Which then makes effective combined arms coordination even more difficult. The Germans did not come out unscathed by any measure, but the cost in American lives and materiel was immense.
My grandfather lost his entire platoon in the Hurtgen Forest. He only lived by playing dead. He still got bayonetted in the back by a German to see if he was dead. Whenever my mom asked him how he got that scar, he said he got it from lying on his mess kit.
This description sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, although fortunately, with much less disastrous results for the civilized world against the Germans.
@@RongleBringer There was a.made for TV movie in 1974 loosely based on William Bradford Huie's book "The Execution of Private Slovik" with Martin Sheen as Eddie Slovik. One aspect of the movie infuriated me. It was the execution with the volley supposedly botched and the Chaplain (Ned Beatty) raving about "giving him another. Total fabrication and deliberate (IMHO) untruth. All covered in the complete record of trial. The 12 members of the firing squad were detailed from the 109th Infantry, Slovik's Regiment. 11 had live rounds. Slovik was hit by all 11. 10 were center of mass and 8 of those were potentially killing hits. The one hit that was off was from a rifleman at the far end of the single rank, having to make an oblique shot. Had there been a two rank firing squad formation, as was done in the case of German General Anton Dostler, convicted of war crimes by the US Army in Italy, all 11 live rounds would have likely had been center of mass kill shots. He was dead with that first volley, immediate and no need for a second volley though provisions were made, just in case. There was no sympathy for Slovik in the 28th Inf Div. Slovik final desertion immediately before the division was committed into the Hürtgenwald, the survivors then were subjected to the 5th Panzer Army's thrust into the Ardennes. Slovik perhaps was fortunate that he was shot by firing squad and not dropped into a 28th ID bivouac. To be sure, I learned about Slovik as a kid from a highly biased source, my Dad...a 28th ID man from pre War PA National Guard until demob at Camp Shelby in rhe fall of 1945. By then, very few of those Pennsylvania men were left, many of them still in Europe at Henri-Chapelle ABMC Cemetery because, unlike Slovik, they did their duty...country, unit, comrades, and in many cases of the original 28th men, their neighbors.
My Mother’s uncle was in the Australian artillery in France in WWI. He went AWL (AWOL to Americans) twice. The first time he came back - of his own accord - with VD and the second time, in 1918, he was found by the military police wandering aimlessly just outside Amiens. They recognised that he was very confused (he was probably having a minor psychotic episode) and were very sympathetic. He had been in the line for three years and was one of very few survivors. Only about 10% lasted that long. The Australian units were so depleted by 1918 that they were withdrawn from the lines in September and their places taken by US troops. Many Americans were actually trained by Australian veterans. Anyway, he was taken out of the line and hospitalised before being given a staff job. He was a sergeant at the end of the war and the army trained him to be an electrician later on. He died in 1970 and carried his battle scars to his grave. I feel terrible writing this. The poor man. It was only because of the understanding shown by the men who picked him up that he wasn’t treated as a deserter and given a harsh penalty. But I suppose he was far from the only one. I’m unsure whether the men who found him were Australian military police or British Provosts.
I think you're probably on to something. It's very likely that many, if not nearly all who deserted, were suffering some type of mental break and PTSD. War, combat, always wondering when you're going to be shot or killed, the whole experience is absolutely terrifying to even consider being a part of, let alone actually living it. 😢 I think most people don't judge these men. I certainly don't.
@ I agree. Also worth pointing out the differences in attitudes ranging from ‘Lack of Moral Fibre’ in WWI to ‘Shell Shock’ in both wars. After three years at the front he’d probably had enough. I should have highlighted this in my first post: the men who picked him up were obviously a bit more enlightened than many others might have been and realised that he was clearly not himself. I find myself feeling grateful. And as I said, I’m sure they’d seen plenty more like him, which tallies with what you said. No wonder they had such a time of it adapting to civilian life. I think it was the artillery that scared people the most. My Dad, who did not go to war because he was too young (for WWII), understood him in a way none of his family did. He was visiting one night and they were sitting watching a doco on television. He (Mum’s uncle) was pretty hard of hearing so it was turned up rather loud. At one point there was a sequence of guns going off and explosions that lasted maybe ten seconds or so. His wife said, ‘God, it’s a wonder any of you came back sane!’ He replied, ‘What makes you think we did?’
Not mentioned, but during the early part of the European war, the US Army Air Corps suffered many desertions of their bomber crews because of the appalling losses during the raids over Europe. Entire crews would desert in the air and fly to Sweden or Switzerland, being neutral, and remain there under internment. It was rumored, but never documented, that Command had issued verbal orders to the fighter escorts that they shoot down any bomber that showed signs of desertion. "Whispers in the Wind".
Do you have any evidence of this rather dubious claim? First of all, it needs to be pointed out that the RAF suffered worse casualties than the USAAF and for far longer without incurring high levels of desertion. Secondly, the early part of the American involvement - from say 17 August, 1942 (the first raid) to say just before 17 August, 1943 (the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid) - American casualties had been comparatively light. The so-called ‘bomber theory’ - a bomber that could defend itself effectively - seemed to be holding water. But most of those missions had been over France and the Low Countries. Germany was another matter. Even so, some of the early raids over Germany did not suffer excessively. The ‘appalling losses’ you refer to didn’t really happen until the Eighth Air Force started flying deeper into Germany. Thirdly, until the arrival of the first American escort fighters, most American raids had been escorted by the RAF. As long as the escorts were there, the bombers were pretty safe and that held true until mid-1943. But the range of the P-47 was little better than that of the Spitfire in 1943 and so the situation didn’t change much. If you can back this up with a reference, I’m interested enough to read it. My information has come from a number of books on the subject, including mission-specific books (mostly British or Anglo-American). I have found nothing to support any claims that American crews were deserting due to appalling losses. That said, it’s possible there were one or two. I don’t know. But that doesn’t exactly tally with your claim. EDIT: There is also not a chance I’m believing your claim that commanders issued orders to shoot down any American bomber that might be deserting. All the bombers had to do was keep flying until their potential pursuers ran out of fuel. With the P-47 of 1943, that was at about the Dutch border.
It's 100,000 for British and Commonwealth, not British. People often don't realise quite how large the Indian Army was, for example. And those initially recorded as having deserted (or MIA) might not actually have done so, and updating of figures didn't always occur. As an aside, something similar is true for tank and aircraft losses - a tank might be struck off from a British division due to battle damage but repaired at Corps level and returned a few days later, but still be recorded as a loss, but a German tank in similar condition might be abandoned. What counts as an actual loss? It's open to interpretation.
All Commonwealth troops stood under British High Command (with a few notable exceptions in the Pacific who stood under US command). Thus British troops is just shorthand for British Commonwealth troops, regardless of their nationality. Moreover people resident in India were British subjects at the time, hence they too were British beyond the definition above. Roughly 70% of the Commonwealth forces were soldiers who were British subjects, hence legally British. Roughly 50% were residents of the British Isles.
Some PoWs from the Indian army elected to join the Indian National Army and fight with the Japanese, allegedly thinking it would advance Indian independence.
Many of the British figures were people who saw defeat/retreat in France. Suffered shell shock or trauma. Imagine being the only one in WWII shot for deserting. That's when you know someone is out to get you.
Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhh, that makes way more sense. I forgot the Empire counted as Britain itself and soldiers were given citizenship which meant the population and Royal army was technically massive
The first SWAT units also got their start with after-war criminal violence being too much for regular police to deal with. As all of a sudden many gangsters had military training and weaponry
Just saw a whole 90 minute video on the collaboration government in France. Of those who Joined the Malice tasked with hunting down resistance fighters and weren’t subsequently also killed after the war… many became cocaine smugglers with the ‘French Connection’ ; the war having turned their petty criminal skills to truly ruthless ones
To be honest most gangster organizations already existed prior to WW2, some even so ancient that they moved to America decades before war (some times even before WWI). Americans deserters sometimes just fueled them in a period of shortage of menpower, but I don't know exactly how big of an impact they had.
Now I'm curious about the other players in the war, particularly Japanese desertion. Japanese military culture demanded ultra-loyalty, but we know at least some Japanese abandoned their post and lived the rest of their lives hiding somewhere in mainland Asia. For example, Japanese communists ran away to link up with Chinese communists.
For the _Wehrmacht_ , until en of 1944, above 100'000 soldiers were condamned for desertion. It's estimated that only 1/3 were caught. Another way out of the war, was suicide.
@@sirhenrymorgan1187 The Japanese who deserted were very few, the Soviets were unbelievably high and the French and Italians were just being themselves by wandering off when they felt like leaving the fighting to others.
@@bureidokaiza2829 around 100.000 germans abandoned their posts, 22.750 got a death sentence and 22.000 where executed. 30.000 had to serve in a so called "Strafbatallion" wich was a death sentence dragged out over some weeks or months. another 20.000 deserted in the really last days and since everything broke down, got no punishment. the rest got various jail sentences and many of them got released and "recruted" back to the army in the last half year of the war.
@@Asmodis4Only 20,000 Germans deserted in the last days of the war? Is that the actual figure or is it an estimate? Because I'm pretty sure the number shoiuld be higher. Way higher.
The town I’m from, a guy deserted and hid in a small France village. He got married, and tried to move back here in around 1951 I think. He was ran out of town. Another guy from our town was in his unit, he was severely injured. He was the only guy on his side. I guess really though the guy that was injured is really the only one that should have a say.
@@CharlieDexter99 while you are right that only those who have served should have a say in this case, I still would not feel comfortable around him. For example, let's say I'm at the docks, and I slip. I hit my head and fall into the water, unconscious. Now ANY guy can abandon me, afraid to lose his own life, but with THIS guy, we already know he picked his own life over that of others... Kind of like with Ukrainian men who fled their country. Fine, let's feed them, clothe them, house them, and when the Russians come here they will abandon us as well. So long and thanks for all the fish When push comes to shove, I prefer a guy to have my back, not turn his back
A lot more people helped in WW2, even if they weren’t fighting. People sacrificed wherever they were. They certainly have a right to be upset if someone wouldn’t help, but then tried to enjoy the rewards with everyone else.
Considering the millions that served over the years of WW2, and how many were likely Draftees instead of volunteers, 50,000 is a surprisingly low number I think
I can buy it considering Americans who deserted couldn't make it back home to their families. That kinda takes away from the point of deserting. I mean unless they had no one to go back to and decided they would just make a new life where they were.
When I was young I knew a deserter from WWII. He had been a tanker, was wounded, and went AWOL from the hospital. He said the tanks were death traps and would never go back inside one. Years after the war he was found (in Colorado) but the military didn't want him back. They released him with an honorable discharge. Did I mention he had lost an eye and had burn scars on his face and hands. Great guy.
Would he have been sent back in to combat without an eye? I guess if he's job in the tank was to be the loader he would still be able to do it but I would have thought that would have gotten him medically discharged or at the very least put in some rear echelon job
In modern times, we were warned that desertion during a time of war could be punishable by death. In practice, a guy in my class of medic trainees had his girlfriend drive up, and he jumped in, and they drove off. Ten weeks later, I saw him getting yelled at by the Drill Sergeants. I guess he had a change of heart and came back. They were honestly angry that he did this because now they had to go through all the hassle of a court martial, reduce him in rank, and make him go through the course again rather than just stamp desertion on his file and leave things at that.
That’s not desertion though… that counts as Unauthorized Leave (UL) or Absence Without Leave (AWOL). Both punishable offenses, but not as harshly punished as desertion.
@ intent matters. That’s the main part of the differentiation of desertion versus UL or AWOL - leaving your post with _intent to not return._ If that intention is not there, it’s not desertion.
My Father was in 3 major campaigns in WWII. North Africa, Salerno invasion, Anzio and into Rome. He said it was very common for guys to “go over the hill.” They would just disappear, usually either return or get nabbed, do time back in the Brig and get returned to the Front.
Something I've been wondering recently: What happened with the UK civilian fishing fleet during the war? I read somewhere that fish wasn't rationed, so were they still going out? Sounds dangerous. Run over by surface vessels, nets dragged down by subs. No thanks.
The British fishing industry was crippled during the early years of the war when the U-Boots could run rampant. The North Sea and English Channel were heavily mined, and the Royal Navy made it even harder by seizing many fishing ships to serve as minesweepers. Fishing in the North Atlantic continued, however. Not sure about the Irish Sea and the Scottish coasts, however.
Nets dragged down by subs is a non issue you just drop them, at the start it was uboat deck guns and later mines that where the big threat. Also planes for the few staying west during blitz
Not to mention, the mines… battleships and subs would have holes blown wide open from a mine impact, I can’t imagine what would happen to your local lightweight fishing vessel.
The protection of the fishing fleet from both sea and air was quite a big deal, and a big part of the job of "auxiliary cruisers", coastal and cross channel ferry ships refitted with old WW1 guns and AA mounts and assigned to convoy the fishing fleets around the North Sea. They were often crewed by retired Navel officiers and volunteer merchant sailors. Fighting anything bigger than an E-boat would have been suicide for them and they were no more than a few hours from the major German ports. They mostly saw little action, but spent the entire war knowing that if they met a major surface combatant they would last no more than minutes.
~16 Million Americans served in WW2 (per national parks) So 50K/16M = ~5/16th of a _percent_. For a bad stat that every army has that's not a bad number
For comparison to the British numbers in this, not sure if he means just from the British Isles or the whole empire. Just the Isles troops of 5M (per BBC) 100k/5M = 2% Whole empire troops of 8.5M (per uk gov) 100k/8.5M = ~1.1% Given the British earlier experience (and entrance) into the war, I get why it's much more than the Americans
@@robot676100,000 is British and Commonwealth, but bear in mind armies used different criteria, so the British and Commonwealth figures will include both under and over counting relative to the USA figures. Reconciling them with each other would require attempting to take a sample of individual cases and applying foreign military criteria and assuming military court outcomes, and so it's hard to compare. It's more accurate to say the USA, by its criteria, had 50000, British and Commonwealth, 100000.
@@seanlander9321 it's a Commonwealth figure, and there were significant numbers of desertions in other theatres. But different criteria and recording methodologies apply, so direct comparison is difficult.
@ It’s British. Given that there were no British courts martial of Commonwealth forces and the figures were obtained from British records, there’s no way that commonwealth soldiers can be included.
@@AnimalStomper The figure comes from an analysis by Charles Glass, and no, the desertions were mostly in Europe. There was no where to escape to in the Pacific and South East Asian war.
My grandpa was a bomber pilot in the mighty 8th. He said the enlisted in his wing had a habit of lightly tossing a book of matches, pack of cigarettes, or any other small objects into the laps of girls they were talking to. Apparently, girls would reflexively open their legs so their dress would catch the object. Guys, who were used to wearing pants, would instead bring their thighs together to catch. I don't know how valid a tactic this was, or how necessary it was, but there must have been some boys out there that were VERY good with makeup and dresses for such a concept to have been thought of.
@@richardgalbavy7103there were gangs, but the vets made them even more dangerous. It’s hard to compete if you’re a street gangster and your opponent is literally WW2 vet who still has their weapons.
Eddie's story is so sad. He flat out told his CO that he was too scared to fight on the front lines and turned in a letter confessing his desertion. They told him to throw it out but he didn't want to, so they court-martialed him and later executed him. He said he was chosen because he was an ex-con, but the only thing they directly punished him for was being afraid to fight. Out of tens of thousands of other deserters, they chose him. Poor guy. His last words: "Okay, Father. I'll pray that you don't follow me too soon."
He was from Detroit. His sister was one my teachers in Jr. High, I remember her talking about him in class because there was a prime time TV movie about him the night before. I don't remember what she said, but I remember that she seemed bitter about about it, which is understandable.
My father fought on the front lines in and around Germany and he was also wounded twice used to tell me you never know how you will react to combat. He said he knew if soldiers shooting themselves and other things to get out. My father never judged and used to tell me how terrible war was. He used to say you better not have any other options before you go to war because the things that go on in war is inhumane. He also said the hero thing is vastly played up. He said fear and the moment makes you do some amazing things.
@@SkyForceOne2 He proved nothing but him being unfit for duty and taking the easy way-out. Better men took up the mantle, fought and often died for a much nobler cause than crime and, maybe too, cowardice. He knew he risked the death penalty. He played, he lost, and reaped the due consequence. Case closed. Calling the ones who still fought on slaves is praising desertion. Outright disgusting to approve of crime but to slander the right path.
My great great grandpa (British) deserted to visit his family when he learned they were being bombed by the Nazis. He hung out for a few days before going back to the front. I have no idea if he served any sort of sentence but will have to ask my great grandma about that.
When you said only one guy was actually executed i was hoping to hear that he did something heinous but from what I’ve read it just sounds like he was a scared kid who got really unlucky. Kind of heart breaking
@@shiftygypsy89migh41I mean the alternative was to go into a situation where he would most likely die. If you have no sympathy it's because you lack the empathy to imagine being in such a situation beyond watching WW2 videos and thinking about how cool it was.
@@shiftygypsy89migh41he didn't commit a crime ,he was conscripted and then murdered for not complying and simply wanting out ,they sentenced him as if he was a traitor working against his comrades but he instead simply didn't want to fight.. Like the video said desertion was not even punished so why give the treatment you'd give to a war criminal to a young boy?
@@feliceabbondante5183 he was given several options to rejoin the fight, in his own unit or in a different unit. He decided he had better chances with a court martial Sadly for him, while Eisenhower was reviewing his appeal and was considering, as a human, to spare his life, the news of the German Ardennes offensive came in and Eisenhower was once again a soldier leading an army He really drew the short stick
The excellent book Guns at Last Light goes into detail about desertion in the US army in Western Europe. The Allies faced such a shortage of infantry that most deserters wouldn’t face any punishment if they want back to the front lines. In fact at the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge there were thousands of soldiers awol in Paris
It's one thing to escape war and live, and another to just become a gangster and terrorizing civilians. That's an interesting episode idea, though, like how many organized crime groups sprouted during the war. If not, or if t's not documented well, then it would be cool to know the different prominent actions of organized crime across the globe to either help their governments or themselves during the war.
I would say it was mostly Italian Americans I would imagine most would have found a way back to Italy to dodge the draft initially. Many Italian American gangsters moved back.
The problem with deserters is that they are by definition fugitives of a power operating in the region. They are most likely armed, desperate, and probably not able to do legitimate work when most of the other military aged men are absent. Even a decent person has few options if they deserted.
@@saintadolf5639 I kinda worded my first question poorly, but what I was trying to say is that, it shouldn't be surprising that it's so difficult to know how many deserted.
Beware of statistics. You may be thinking of combat troops in the European Theater, of which there were 2 million from the U.S., but in the entirety of all branches of U.S. military in all theaters some 16.4 million served. If we do the math for only the 2 million bona fide combat troops (not support troops) and only consider European operations, it maths to a tiny .025% desertion rate. But it’s not 50,000 from the 2 million in European combat, it’s 50,000 from the total of the 16.4 million which maths to .003%. Bear in mind that desertion numbers are dependent on how they are reported. If a unit is barreling across the countryside under attack on their way to capture the next town, nobody is stopping to go back and look for a missing soldier. He will simply be recorded as not present for duty. Maybe killed, maybe lying wounded, maybe lost, maybe AWOL. Word goes back to following units to be on the lookout for your missing guy, but that may or may not happen. As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Nowadays, we will put a hold on operations and send units searching for a deserter, often suffering combat casualties during the search. Bowe Burgdahl ring a bell?
@CSMSteel7 Yeah, cause nowadays in the military leadership is much more responsible about ensuring everyone AND their sensitive items are present and accounted for. After EVERY movement you are required to check your squad and give an UP & UP on men & equipment. Lots of awful situations have happened in the past precisely because of lax standards.
Not only during World War 2, thousands of U.S. troop also deserted from their post during the Korean war and especially during Vietnam war. During the Korean war, the Chinese PLA troop never give up or deserted from their duty and they fight till the last man. Hundreds of PLA troop was frozen to death while waiting to ambush an American convoy which the PLA troop did not leave their post without further orders from the superior.
Never is a long time. I would think that all armies have had troops desert. If the communists did not desert. It was not due to loyalty... more likely fear of what their comrades would do to them or their families
I can understand being too scared to fight. However, being frightened is one thing, and using the weapon given to you to fight to instead hijack a truck and become a criminal is another thing entirely.
You're assuming the gangsters were scared for virtue signaling shaming. Instead of the possible alternative that despite being forcefully enlisted into WWII, these particular men were more interested in going back to work being gangsters. Perhaps arming men who already were in the business was the crime.
@knightofkorbin888 I never said that I assumed the gangsters, specifically, were scared. I was referring to the ones who ran because they couldn't handle it.
I only know that an area south of Pisa ruffly around 30 km there was an enormous camp packed with deserters, mostly US troops guarded by MP and had closed this by high chicken wires. Some years ago it was cleared up by Caterpillar and kept on finding remains of those guys buried...
@wilkes406 yes I'm quite okay and been living for a while in Sweden ss at my girlfriend's beautiful farm driving the tractors 🚜! But I keep going back to Italy so it's not too bad. I still miss G+ as it was great fun ..
Dr John Peaty calculated the desertion figure of the British at 99319 and observed that this did not include AWOL. By 1944 desertions in the British forces were described as a crisis and reflected on the low standard of discipline and moral of British infantry who were almost the entirety of desertions.
You say "British"... does that mean the British Army alone, or all Commonweath Forces collectively? (Aussies, Kiwis, Canadian, Indian, Burmese, North African) Because that number is either really large or really small, depending which...
British forces is the same as Commonwealth forces. While some of the Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa were by 1939 sovereign countries, all Commonwealth troops served under British High command. Anything else would have led to complete chaos… officers in the British high command were mostly from the British Isles, but several were from other parts of the Commonwealth. In 1943 in Europe, Commonwealth and US troops came under joint command of the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF). In the Asia Pacific Theatre they remained under British command throughout the war (with some notable exceptions serving under US high command).
@@spartacus-olsson Ok, so YOU in this video, are refering to Commonwealth troops as a whole, thankyou for clarifying, the terminology is not obviously unambiguous to a layman.
Man i feel bad for Eddie. He's all like, "how many of us deserted? And I'm the only one being murdered for it? Well at least the punishments are severe for my fellow deserters. THEYRE ALREADY OUT?!?!?"
No one should ever be forced to fight. Voting should be done so that a nation chooses its path as a collective decision and not a decision made by a bunch of bunker princesses.
I have a unique opinion on deserters. Of course, desertion is the most simple form of treason - you're leaving your compatriots to face the enemy alone, knowing full well they need your help or they may not survive. The justification many of them use for themselves is, "well, we're all going to die here anyway so I may as well live a little before the end". These people choose their own interests over service, and that's shameful when you signed up for it. Conscripts, however, should not be expected to remain loyal and present indefinitely and they cannot really be blamed for deserting as they're being compelled by a government to risk life and limb for a conflict where they have nothing to gain personally. In either case, whether a volunteer or a conscript, if they can evade being apprehended for the duration of the remainder of their contracted term of service, they should be left alone permanently and never be pursued by the military courts. However...if someone deserts and tries to return later, they accept the consequences of desertion.
That war was insane... i have never been put in that situation so I can't really call them cowards... They didnt ask for war, nor did they sign up willingly... idk
The execution of Eddie Slovik, was a despicable act of singling out one person, for the purpose of making an example. The fact that his widow was never aware of his fate, until much later, and his grave was unmarked, was deeply disturbing!
@davedixon2068 What about the man who ordered his execution? Eisenhower. Ike was ALWAYS "in the rear with the gear". He was notorious for spending the war in London with his "driver" 25 year old Kaye Summersby. Ike was going to leave his wife for his mistress/driver but was eventually persuaded not to by more principled men. Anyhow, Ike ordered the execution while Ike was living the good life and sending thousands and thousands more men to their deaths. Ike was the real P.O.S.
Based on the book deserters, most soldiers were just gone for a few days or even hours. The constant objection to military discipline was too much for some soldiers. Some soldiers experienced intense shelling on their first time in contact and then ran and that counts as desertion two. The vast majority of them made it back to their units and fought as any other soldier did.
Just because you've insulted half of us: the US was also fighting someone elses war in Europe. The brits that deserted abandoned their own country and its people, and US deserters didn't want to die for an old enemy against a newer enemy.
@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz how have I insulted anyone? I simply stated fact! The president didn't want to bring the US into the war. It took 2 years for that to happen and in that time the UK were almost alone. I can't see how you have an issue with the truth but that's your issue and not mine.
Kinda goes to show people are people no matter the generation. There are heroes and opportunists and cowards and those who once believed in a cause and then loose faith later, and all matters in-between everywhere
All the unintelligent NPCs who cry about desertion wouldn't survive a day in war. War is awful. It's admirable to think for yourself and save your life instead of dying to satisfy the desires of rich warmonger politicians.
Fewer than 15% of a total population is ever 'fit for war.' When you see how over half of the US military (16m servicemembers) were conscripted, it should tell you that you're going to induct a lot of people who should not be there in the first place... like Eddie Slovik.
Many deserters had just seen, and done, too much. Shell-shocked, or PTSD, was still not generally accepted. Cracking in combat was often defined by the British army as 'lacking moral fibre'. Those PTSD cases would have been mixed with the more cynical deserters without much attempt at distinction being made by anyone.
Imagine that not only is the US committing warcrimes daily, but even the deserters of their army , many of which did not know how to live without crimes.
To be fair the uk was in actual combat from 1940 France . The us did not see combat until operation tourch , also simply disobeying an order in the uk can see you charged with desertion
@@wbertie2604 and the bef in 40 . I just deleted two comments as I completely misinterpreted your point (apologies) . .hope I did not offend .( Edit , as TH-cam thinks the bef is bed 🤔) auto correct is a aunt .
My “grand-uncle” deserted from the British Indian Navy while on a port call in the UK. The family was told he was missing in action. Only many years later when he felt safe would he contact back home. He ended up marrying a German. Set up a big plastics business in the UK and ultimately shifted to Florida.
@@bollox8992 up until early 1941, the British had: • Destroyed the German surface fleet. • Neutralised most of the French fleet by sinking or starving it of fuel. • Disabled a major part of the Italian fleet. • Freely moving around the Mediterranean. • Starving Germany of food and resources with the effective Royal Navy blockade. • Beat the Luftwaffe over Dunkirk. • Beat the Luftwaffe in the misnomer the Battle of Britain as Britain was never threatened. • Occupied Iceland. • Decimated the Italian army in North Africa. • Were about to take all the southern Mediterranean coast. • Germany was being bombed from the air with raids of over 100 bombers - 150 over Nuremberg - using the new navigational device, Gee. • A massive air bombing fleet was being assembled. • A matter of weeks after the US entered WW2 the RAF launched a *1,000 bomber raid* on Cologne. • The RAF shot down over 700 German fighters over Continental Europe in 1941. • Launched Commando raids on occupied Europe. After the small BEF (only 9% of all allied forces in France) left France in June 1940, the British went on the rampage. So much so Franco told Hitler the British may win with him not joining in with Germany, fearing British occupation of Spanish territory. The Turkish ambassador stated Britain will win as it has a pool of men in its empire to create an army of 45 million (later an army of 2.6 million moved into Burma). In 1941 the British: • Suppressed an uprising in Iraq; • Beat the Vichy French in Syria; • Secured Iran and the oil by invading; • Drove the Italians out of East Africa. • Controlled the Med coast from Turkey to Libya; • Controlled Malta on the doorstep of Italy; • Controlled both entrances to the Mediterranean; • Controlled and freely sailing in the eastern Mediterranean; *The British determined where the battlefields with the Axis were going to be.* After France 1940 Germany never had a significant campaign victory over the British Commonwealth ever again in WW2. The Germans *FAILED:* • To win the Battle of Britain in 1940; • To win the Battle of the Atlantic in 1940/41; • To control the eastern Atlantic; • To control the Mediterranean in 1940/41; • To control North Africa and the Middle East in 1940/41. The British Commonwealth stopped the Nazis/Axis achieving all this well before the USA joined WW2 or even sent Lend Lease.
@@johnburns4017no to mention including commonwealth forces britian had a military of over 15,000,000 People really underestimate how big the British Empire was
@@datcheesecakeboi6745 In 1942 the British Empire and Commonwealth was fighting a three continent, 4 ocean campaign, against three major powers and incidentally trying to keep the Russians supplied and in the war, providing thousands of tanks and aircraft. The British Army was the finest army in the World all told, logistics, intelligence, artillery, engineering, planning, medical supplies etc…No Army took more ground for fewer casualties than the British Army in WW2. And it’s important to remember Britain’s strategic position was strong and secure, enjoying significant strategic successes in 39-42 whatever temporary, tactical setbacks. Britain was in it for the long haul. In 1941 the British were building more aircraft than Germany, Japan and Italy combined, 5,000 more than the USSR and 5,000 less than the USA. Britain fought a highly technological and industrial war doing so very efficiently. "Steel not flesh" was the slogan, with Britain using not only her vast empire but her even larger _trading empire_ to maximum effect. Throughout 1942 British Commonwealth troops were fighting, for or seriously expecting to be attacked, in French North Africa, Libya, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria (torn between expecting airborne assault, and preparing to reinforce Turkey if that country was attacked), Iraq and Iran (German invasion from the north was attracting more British troop deployment until after Stalingrad than those facing Japan and Rommel combined), Madagascar (fighting the Vichy French to prevent them from inviting the Japanese in as they had done in Indochina), Ceylon (at the time of the Japanese naval raid that looked like it might prefigure and invasion), India, Burma, outposts of the East Indies, New Guinea, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, and other Pacific Islands. The British Commonwealth and Empire had far more ground troops in action against the Japanese than the Americans. And again the British were supposed to maintain sea control over the North and South Atlantic's, the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans - and provided aircraft carriers and cruisers to help in the Pacific - while the Americans concentrated on just one of those powers. The British were fighting, at any one time, a global war in the Middle East, the Far East, the Indian subcontinent, the Pacific, North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, the North Atlantic, the South Atlantic, the North Sea, the Barents and Arctic seas, the Mediterranean, the Adriatic and of course mainland Western Europe, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia too. By early 1942 Britain was for the third year running, trying to prop up a blitzkrieged ally - France, then Russia, then the United States - but the incapacity of the U.S. Navy to provide any convoy protection on its east coast almost lost the allies the Battle of the Atlantic. Even after the British hastily deployed 60 escort vessels to cover the US coast, shipping losses climbed to a level that undermined British ability to feed themselves, keep the Russians in the war, keep the reinforcements flowing to the Middle East and Asia, and pander to a panicked Australian government. For most of 1942 the British Commonwealth held the line, kept back the combined efforts of Germany and Italy and Japan (with fairly minimal input from the United States compared to her potential power), and kept the Atlantic and Indian oceans open and suppliers flowing to the vital armies in the Middle East and Asia, and to the Soviets. No other empire in the history of the world has been capable of such a sustained multi-continent and multi-ocean operation. After France 1940 Germany never had a significant campaign victory over the British Commonwealth ever again in WW2.
My dad deserted the U.S. Army during WWII, not to escape combat but to get into combat. At age 22 in 1939, he enlisted in the U.S. Army after Hitler invaded Poland. Frustrated by the disinterest in the U.S. in getting involved in the war, in July 1940 after the fall of France he went AWOL and enlisted in the Canadian army, which was in the war and sending troops to England to guard against an invasion. He married an English girl while stationed there, and in 1942 was captured at Dieppe, spending the remainder of the war as a POW.
To be fair had America not intervened Europe and Russia would have fallen and eventually the US with the pressure of a Japan with complete control over Asia and a Germany control over Europe and Africa
Land of the free was never made and mantained so by the cowardice of such men. Some people, in my native France, were known to say that whatever happened in Czechoslovakia, then Poland did not regard France. Yet war still came. Also, the US came to exist precisely thanks to French people going to fight a war that "wasn't theirs".
@Briselance no, the French came to fight against the British so the war was to their benefit. Helping the US was a benefit but not a primary motivation.
@@paoloviti6156 they barely made a battalion, most of them were pow'sduring Italian front, most of them didn't know German so pretty much bigger issues on miscommunication, these were made exactly around the time when us and soviets were pushing which meant they were losing anyways so low morale which probably led to desertion at ending stage of war, the battalion remained ineffective during it's lifespan and was mostly used for supporting role , Now ofcourse Indian national army is a different case
yeah but you'd go to war for that very prospect so people responsible will puppeteer the entire world around you, every virtue and thing you like to make you do that anyways so
The best deal was reserved for those who got interned by the neutral countries, such as Ireland or Sweden. They became guests of the state, and by definition they were neither deserters nor POW. And, they were released after the end of the war, and got full benefits as veterans.
If a man disappears when his unit isn't in combat, desertion can be assumed. A company is going to notice when one of their number vanishes with no explanation.
That's probably where the uncertainty on the exact numbers comes from. Though it is worth noting that the figure for MIA does imply there was some manner of military action going on at the time of their disappearance. There are conceivable cases where this could be desertion or not - a messenger carrying orders from HQ is conducting a military action (that being: conveying orders), and an enemy interception in which they are captured and taken prisoner is possible, but them just deciding "nope, I'm going anywhere other than the front lines, thanks!" is also possible. Both leave no body behind to be identified (stray shellfire or just slipping on a trail down a steep embankment and dying from the fall into some underbrush can also accomplish this, at least in the short term. But for most soldiers..."action" implies combat, which is not really conducive to the kind of planned out desertion that's needed to never be found again. Ever since WWI, it's generally been considered that the likely fate of any soldiers who remain MIA in the long term are soldiers who were unfortunate enough to encounter shellfire or other such explosives at the kind of range that doesn't leave identifiable remains. After all, it's not like they don't look around after a battle, and keep their name and identifying characteristics on record long term so that, if they show up again, a debriefing can be held to figure out what happened in the meantime. Of course, this changes significantly when charges of desertion start being brought against soldiers who merely retreat on their own initiative. Often this gets a lesser label, like going AWOL, or Cowardice, and results in disciplinary action but not execution - after all, while a soldier can rout in the heat of the moment, most of them have not decided they are fully ending their service in the military at that exact moment and are instead more interested in being somewhere that the enemy isn't. But this has rather famously been used by desperate authoritarian regimes (including both the Soviets and the Nazis at different points in WWII) to attempt to make the front line troops more afraid of the authorities above them than the enemy attacking them. Sometimes this also includes soldiers who surrendered and were taken prisoner rather than fighting to the death, in which case it's probably very simple: all of the missing are deserters. But...this isn't exactly a standard legal framework under a properly run military in full compliance with the Geneva Conventions and other agreements on how war is to be conducted.
I read a report 20 years back where a number of men charged for desertion had to prove their case that they got lost in the fighting. Had they been French in WW1, they'd have been shot. Americans should count themselves lucky.
My great grandfather avoided the draft for years, and when he was caught he spent the end of the war stealing weapons and selling them on the black market in Europe. Based.
In Australia the majority of conscripts in WW2 were not really volunteers. Due to economic conditions at the time many Australians were receiving regular food vouchers mostly issued through the local police station, when the war broke out the food vouchers stopped and they were all told there was a job in the army for them. They really had no option other than to go. Not sure if it was the same in the US and the UK.
Eddie was just a kid with a shit upbringing and a hard life. He probably got his bell rung during the shelling and was likely suffering from PTSD. Maybe he wasn't the brightest guy, refusing to destroy his note and all, but he sure didn't deserve to be shot like a dog. He should be posthumously pardoned.
This took me on an hours long journey learning more. Eddie was only 24 years old and was married. Thankfully, he was the last soldier executed for desertion.
Being an infantryman in the WWII US army was not a good fate and for those who landed in Normandy it was a death sentence (99% of them died in action before end of the war due to the fact once in combat you had to stay on the front until your death or until you got maimed too bad to come back after hospital tour or until end of war). The IRS system was a mess and called criminal by some US officers after the war. Yeah as for Slovik I would have taken my chance in court instead of going back to the meat grinder.
That 99% number is utterly made up right? On D- day itself "only" 2500 americans dies out of the 59 000 who landed. For the entire western front from D-day onwards about 150.000 US soldiers died, out of about 2.000.000 who served on the western front. That's 7,5%. I'm not willing to do research on those who landed on D-day itself, but I am certain it's nowhere near that 99% number.
@@slome815 the units that landed on D-Day were thr units that served in Europe the longest The vast majority did die, there a reason there's only a very very very small handful of veterans to talk about d-day after the war ended
@@datcheesecakeboi6745 units were rotated out of the front line, though. Airborne troops were rotated back to the UK as they had specialist skills and there was little sense in having them being all lost and those skills with it. The Battle of the Bulge started with an attack into an area of 'resting' divisions that weren't in active fighting prior to the start of the attack.
@wbertie2604 while true those resting units were still not safe, they were still in the European theatre The only safe place in ww2 was america, London to Berlin to Tokyo/Kyoto were being actively bombed
@slome815 I think he talked about the original guys from their respective units not counting replacements, I agree that 99% is not realistic but somewhere I heard the 28th IF took more that 16k casualties during the war (KIA, WIA, MIA, etc) and the 1st IF total casualty percentage during the war was like 200% when the average US infantry division had 10 to 15k troops I'm not good at math but that mean that maybe not a lot of the original guys who left the US where around to witness in some manner the end of the war
I cannot remember where i read this story of Federal soldiers deserting the front lines and trying to swim to boats to escape the fighting. The Union soldiers on the ship were told to shoot the deserters in the water. One of the officers remarked about the fanaticism of the deserters to get on that boat. If they used that same crazed determination in the opposite direction towards the Rebel army, the war would be won.
If they found you they would kill you. A man made it all the way back home to his family. One morning the military came to his house looking for him. He ran out the back door and they opened fire on him as he was running through the garden. The ham in his mouth from eating breakfast was still warm.
I remember watching a documentary on cable about how many air crews purposely flew into Switzerland during the war. They were held there for the duration of the war and settled there after the war. They showed grave stones with Anglo names. Was on once and then not shown again
Also the draft was not really well enforced. The war was so popular that they had enough troops, and kids who were under enlistment age would steal identities to sign up. There were even cases of people signing up during the brief period of draft letters being sent and pre delivery
I have the feeling that this was one of many things that was covered up in our us history books Edit: the reason I’m saying this is because a desertion is just as important as a casualty, not because I don’t listen to history
@alamrasyidi4097 In the grand scheme of millions of troops not that important for a high school history class. In this day and age those that are interested can use google.
Another mystery is how many troops deserted during the Vietnam War? When I served in Vietnam 70 - 71 I know there were scores (?) of black deserters living in Soul Alley in Saigon - living off the black market as best they could. I always wondered what happened to them when South Vietnam fell in 1975. Were they quietly repatriated by the U.S. government, or did they choose to remain in Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City)? I would love to know the answer. 🤔
Desertion is not that hard in fact it's one of the things you are taught to look for when your standing duty so if you are attempting to flee you mainly have to worry about MPs or other GIs on duty however in an active warzone they are looking for the enemy not one of their own guys attempting to run away.
Be in the rear of a formation as it's on the move, use sick call and wander off, tell your buddy to wait for you as you bolt... hop in a supply truck...
Remember that a large number of these cases were simply not returning from leave and in a lot of cases the punishments were quite lenient, it's all dependant on how long and the reason e.g. a soldier who had been in combat for an extended period would be shown more leniency than a replacement who deserted with little to no combat.
Most of the British deserters were soldiers in India, realizing Churchill was actively and willfully starving the entirety of India to feed the British war effort
@@pietpanzerpanzer5335 13th Amendment bans most forms of slavery (including serfdom), EXCEPT for prison labor. This exception was a compromise made to get the 13th Amendment passed. The South proceeded to make being black illegal (Black Codes, Jim Crow, etc.), to justify re-enslaving them. After integration, the war on drugs was launched to justify continuing to arrest black people and using them for prison labor (POC are stereotyped as using drugs more than whites, even though all groups use drugs at about the same rate).
@louisnall3102 Japan definitly was bad but let's not pretend that America didn't pretty much force Japan to start a war, you know with the whole oil/natural resource stuff.
@louisnall3102 Let's not pretend those sanctions were because the Americans were the 'good guys' and needed to stop a tragedy. If it wasn't because they didn't want a more powerful Japan with more resources, they wouldn't have given a damn.
A couple things there. Brits were at war for 2 and a half more years than the US. Plus the Brits experienced some of the worse military losses of the war. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant percentage of that came when they were getting run over in Europe in 1939.
Americans typically used STDs instead to escape from the front, which is why the rates of rape by US troops in France was so high. Then the Australians turned up with penicillin and within weeks tens of thousands of US troops were back on the frontline.
Meanwhile, Australia which was proportionately the most mobilised of the Allies had fewer than 200 desert from one million enlisted. What brought on such an extraordinary high rate of cowardice with the British?
Maybe that they got bombed to shit in the beginning of the war and also fought from the beginning to the end across the world and alone for most of the time
@@gma5607 I don't think so. I mean indians? Maybe, because a big Anti British and pro independence sentiment was rising back home. But I don't think Canadians or Africans would be deserting, nor the Aussies.
@@gma5607 So the rate of desertion of the British was 3%, while Australia’s was .0002, which proves the lack of discipline in the British forces. No wonder Churchill refused to have an election, he must have been worried about a popular vote to end the war.
true, nowadays many women have high testosterone, we must draft women as well and have less harsh penalties for desserters. This will balance out our need for troops next war draft all genders!
I see a lot of peapole talking about how would our world look like if germany won during ww2, but i dont see a lot of peapole talking about what if germany won in ww1, how different could mordern europe and USA be?
@chombus2602 yeah but would hitler still be able to gain as much power in the politics if there was no hyper inflation, would austria hungary still fall apart and make way for SHS and yugoslavija
The British figure includes commonwealth and empire troops. The majority of the 100, 000 were Indians. Please don’t imply the British were deserting in large numbers when they weren’t.
@@williamrees6662When the war ended 21,000 United Kingdom residents from the British Isles were listed as deserted. Of them 8,000 were apprehended and received prison sentences of varying lengths.
This question comes from MBCGRS, thanks for the question!
If i may ask a question (assuming it wasn’t asked before) what was the Axis, Allied, and International reaction to the sinking of the MV Wilhelm Gustloff by the soviet navy during operation Hannibal, Killing nearly 10k wounded soldiers and civilians?
why was the emperor of Japan so cruel, and ignorant and didn't surrender even after the mass destruction in Hiroshima and nagasaki
?
?
An _After The Battle_ magazine issue from the 1980s examined the case of Slovik and compared his situation with many others convicted of desertion and sometimes sentenced to death. One bombardier left his aircraft before a mission over Germany and the plane took off without him. Another deserter headed for Paris, then under Allied control, and made a living from begging and stealing US Army goods (he joined a local organised crime network). Yet another was actually recommended for the Medal of Honor for behaviour in battle, but deserted afterwards. Unlike Slovik, none of these men were executed.
Not going to lie, a movie based on deserters disappearing into the French countryside and forming a crime racket sounds amazing.
but nope how about a reboot of jurassic park featuring robert downey jr as trex
@@desertking3312”Ooh, look at me! I’m not a consumer, I’m so unique and better!” Nothing wrong with wanting a movie, man. It’s a great way to bring a real historical story to life and teach more people who wouldn’t be looking for it on their own.
There's actually a couple of movies about post-war American gangsters in Japan.
@@andleebahsan4192Absolute cinema
@@WALTERBROADDUSyou remember what they were called?
Slovik was taken into custody and confined to the division stockade. The division's judge advocate, Lieutenant Colonel Henry Sommer, offered Slovik a third and final opportunity to rejoin his unit in exchange for the charges against him being dropped. He also offered to transfer Slovik to a different infantry regiment in the division where no one would know of his past, and he could start with a "clean slate." Slovik, still convinced that he would face only jail time (which he had already experienced and considered far more tolerable than combat), declined these offers, saying, "I've made up my mind. I'll take my court martial."
And had the misfortune to do it at a time when Eisenhower was in a bad mood.
That guy would've won a Darwin Award if it existed back then.
om
@@Kubinda12345 No? He was statistically extremely likely to survive. SIGNIFICANTLY more likely to survive than in front line combat.
@@thepinkplushie
Your right he had a good shot at survival, but statistically his odds were way better at the front. For as bloody as the war was, most soldiers who were in combat were not killed.
the context around Eddie Slovik is interesting. The US Army did give him at least three chances to agree to come back on the line, and he refused all three, maybe more. So then they executed him to serve as an example, since he was so blatantly and openly defiant. His stance may sound strange--certain death vs possible death on the front lines. Setting aside the possibility that he thought he'd be pardoned, it is worth noting that his unit was fighting in the Battle of the Hürtgen Forest, right on the Germany/France border, and essentially part of the Siegfried Line/Westwall. This battle is considered one of the Americans' greatest errors in Europe, and is more easily compared with a WWI-style meat grinder than anything else. The terrain negated every advantage the US had--armor, air, numbers, firepower. The forest was so thick that sometimes US units would get hopelessly lost and call in artillery fire missions of one round only so they could orient themselves based on the grid reference. It has also been compared to some of the worst fighting in the Vietnamese jungle decades later.
Every advantage? Armour? Ok. Numbers? Eh, kind of. But air and artillery? The Germans were surely not inclined to think so when they were getting peppered with rockets and bombs or cannon shells and mortar bombs.
Trees make it more difficult to spot their positions, but their positions still end up being spotted. And then, trees offer no protection. They are concealment.
@@Briselance the weather was pretty bad for a lot of the battle, and as I said, the forest was so thick that units had to call in strikes just to figure out where they were. The US advantage there wasn't entirely negated but it was severely blunted compared to what it had been in more open country. Counter-battery fire, which the Americans had been especially good at, was also much more difficult to direct properly due to the thick forest. On top of that, there was intense pressure from above to push forward and take ground, which led to some of the worst US officer casualty rates in the European theater. Which then makes effective combined arms coordination even more difficult. The Germans did not come out unscathed by any measure, but the cost in American lives and materiel was immense.
My grandfather lost his entire platoon in the Hurtgen Forest. He only lived by playing dead. He still got bayonetted in the back by a German to see if he was dead. Whenever my mom asked him how he got that scar, he said he got it from lying on his mess kit.
This description sounds vaguely reminiscent of the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest, although fortunately, with much less disastrous results for the civilized world against the Germans.
@@RongleBringer There was a.made for TV movie in 1974 loosely based on William Bradford Huie's book "The Execution of Private Slovik" with Martin Sheen as Eddie Slovik. One aspect of the movie infuriated me. It was the execution with the volley supposedly botched and the Chaplain (Ned Beatty) raving about "giving him another. Total fabrication and deliberate (IMHO) untruth. All covered in the complete record of trial. The 12 members of the firing squad were detailed from the 109th Infantry, Slovik's Regiment. 11 had live rounds. Slovik was hit by all 11. 10 were center of mass and 8 of those were potentially killing hits. The one hit that was off was from a rifleman at the far end of the single rank, having to make an oblique shot. Had there been a two rank firing squad formation, as was done in the case of German General Anton Dostler, convicted of war crimes by the US Army in Italy, all 11 live rounds would have likely had been center of mass kill shots. He was dead with that first volley, immediate and no need for a second volley though provisions were made, just in case. There was no sympathy for Slovik in the 28th Inf Div. Slovik final desertion immediately before the division was committed into the Hürtgenwald, the survivors then were subjected to the 5th Panzer Army's thrust into the Ardennes. Slovik perhaps was fortunate that he was shot by firing squad and not dropped into a 28th ID bivouac. To be sure, I learned about Slovik as a kid from a highly biased source, my Dad...a 28th ID man from pre War PA National Guard until demob at Camp Shelby in rhe fall of 1945. By then, very few of those Pennsylvania men were left, many of them still in Europe at Henri-Chapelle ABMC Cemetery because, unlike Slovik, they did their duty...country, unit, comrades, and in many cases of the original 28th men, their neighbors.
My Mother’s uncle was in the Australian artillery in France in WWI. He went AWL (AWOL to Americans) twice. The first time he came back - of his own accord - with VD and the second time, in 1918, he was found by the military police wandering aimlessly just outside Amiens. They recognised that he was very confused (he was probably having a minor psychotic episode) and were very sympathetic.
He had been in the line for three years and was one of very few survivors. Only about 10% lasted that long. The Australian units were so depleted by 1918 that they were withdrawn from the lines in September and their places taken by US troops. Many Americans were actually trained by Australian veterans.
Anyway, he was taken out of the line and hospitalised before being given a staff job. He was a sergeant at the end of the war and the army trained him to be an electrician later on. He died in 1970 and carried his battle scars to his grave.
I feel terrible writing this. The poor man. It was only because of the understanding shown by the men who picked him up that he wasn’t treated as a deserter and given a harsh penalty. But I suppose he was far from the only one. I’m unsure whether the men who found him were Australian military police or British Provosts.
Wow
I think you're probably on to something. It's very likely that many, if not nearly all who deserted, were suffering some type of mental break and PTSD.
War, combat, always wondering when you're going to be shot or killed, the whole experience is absolutely terrifying to even consider being a part of, let alone actually living it. 😢
I think most people don't judge these men. I certainly don't.
@ I agree. Also worth pointing out the differences in attitudes ranging from ‘Lack of Moral Fibre’ in WWI to ‘Shell Shock’ in both wars. After three years at the front he’d probably had enough. I should have highlighted this in my first post: the men who picked him up were obviously a bit more enlightened than many others might have been and realised that he was clearly not himself. I find myself feeling grateful. And as I said, I’m sure they’d seen plenty more like him, which tallies with what you said. No wonder they had such a time of it adapting to civilian life.
I think it was the artillery that scared people the most. My Dad, who did not go to war because he was too young (for WWII), understood him in a way none of his family did. He was visiting one night and they were sitting watching a doco on television. He (Mum’s uncle) was pretty hard of hearing so it was turned up rather loud. At one point there was a sequence of guns going off and explosions that lasted maybe ten seconds or so. His wife said, ‘God, it’s a wonder any of you came back sane!’ He replied, ‘What makes you think we did?’
Not mentioned, but during the early part of the European war, the US Army Air Corps suffered many desertions of their bomber crews because of the appalling losses during the raids over Europe. Entire crews would desert in the air and fly to Sweden or Switzerland, being neutral, and remain there under internment. It was rumored, but never documented, that Command had issued verbal orders to the fighter escorts that they shoot down any bomber that showed signs of desertion. "Whispers in the Wind".
Evil commanders.
They beat Catch22.....
Apocryphal story I think.Most of the aircraft that put down in Switzerland were heavily damaged after a raid and would not have made it back to base.
Do you have any evidence of this rather dubious claim?
First of all, it needs to be pointed out that the RAF suffered worse casualties than the USAAF and for far longer without incurring high levels of desertion.
Secondly, the early part of the American involvement - from say 17 August, 1942 (the first raid) to say just before 17 August, 1943 (the Schweinfurt-Regensburg raid) - American casualties had been comparatively light. The so-called ‘bomber theory’ - a bomber that could defend itself effectively - seemed to be holding water. But most of those missions had been over France and the Low Countries. Germany was another matter. Even so, some of the early raids over Germany did not suffer excessively.
The ‘appalling losses’ you refer to didn’t really happen until the Eighth Air Force started flying deeper into Germany.
Thirdly, until the arrival of the first American escort fighters, most American raids had been escorted by the RAF. As long as the escorts were there, the bombers were pretty safe and that held true until mid-1943. But the range of the P-47 was little better than that of the Spitfire in 1943 and so the situation didn’t change much.
If you can back this up with a reference, I’m interested enough to read it. My information has come from a number of books on the subject, including mission-specific books (mostly British or Anglo-American). I have found nothing to support any claims that American crews were deserting due to appalling losses. That said, it’s possible there were one or two. I don’t know. But that doesn’t exactly tally with your claim.
EDIT: There is also not a chance I’m believing your claim that commanders issued orders to shoot down any American bomber that might be deserting. All the bombers had to do was keep flying until their potential pursuers ran out of fuel. With the P-47 of 1943, that was at about the Dutch border.
@@HughBond-kx7ly A perfectly reasonable explanation and backed up by everything I’ve read. The OP’s story is preposterous.
It's 100,000 for British and Commonwealth, not British. People often don't realise quite how large the Indian Army was, for example. And those initially recorded as having deserted (or MIA) might not actually have done so, and updating of figures didn't always occur.
As an aside, something similar is true for tank and aircraft losses - a tank might be struck off from a British division due to battle damage but repaired at Corps level and returned a few days later, but still be recorded as a loss, but a German tank in similar condition might be abandoned. What counts as an actual loss? It's open to interpretation.
All Commonwealth troops stood under British High Command (with a few notable exceptions in the Pacific who stood under US command). Thus British troops is just shorthand for British Commonwealth troops, regardless of their nationality.
Moreover people resident in India were British subjects at the time, hence they too were British beyond the definition above. Roughly 70% of the Commonwealth forces were soldiers who were British subjects, hence legally British. Roughly 50% were residents of the British Isles.
Some PoWs from the Indian army elected to join the Indian National Army and fight with the Japanese, allegedly thinking it would advance Indian independence.
Many of the British figures were people who saw defeat/retreat in France. Suffered shell shock or trauma.
Imagine being the only one in WWII shot for deserting.
That's when you know someone is out to get you.
Ooohhhhhhhhhhhhh, that makes way more sense. I forgot the Empire counted as Britain itself and soldiers were given citizenship which meant the population and Royal army was technically massive
@@John14710 The number of Indians lost in the conflict is absolutely staggering.
Imagine being forced to fight a war you didn't start
For the rich and powerful so they can get more rich and powerful. It's a gamble for them
Yeah, imagine that.
Yea they should have just let Germany, Japan and Italy take over the world. How dare people be expected to defend their homes and freedom.
@@snthorenseems like a personal problem
The *ews wanted it......they tend to get their way in such matters.
Never really thought about how gangster organizations in Europe got their start, but damn does that ever make a lot of sense.
The first SWAT units also got their start with after-war criminal violence being too much for regular police to deal with. As all of a sudden many gangsters had military training and weaponry
Just saw a whole 90 minute video on the collaboration government in France. Of those who Joined the Malice tasked with hunting down resistance fighters and weren’t subsequently also killed after the war… many became cocaine smugglers with the ‘French Connection’ ; the war having turned their petty criminal skills to truly ruthless ones
To be honest most gangster organizations already existed prior to WW2, some even so ancient that they moved to America decades before war (some times even before WWI). Americans deserters sometimes just fueled them in a period of shortage of menpower, but I don't know exactly how big of an impact they had.
Organized crime and mafia existed loooong before this. Was just another new batch.
There was no mafia before WWII? What are you on?
Now I'm curious about the other players in the war, particularly Japanese desertion. Japanese military culture demanded ultra-loyalty, but we know at least some Japanese abandoned their post and lived the rest of their lives hiding somewhere in mainland Asia. For example, Japanese communists ran away to link up with Chinese communists.
For the _Wehrmacht_ , until en of 1944, above 100'000 soldiers were condamned for desertion. It's estimated that only 1/3 were caught. Another way out of the war, was suicide.
@@sirhenrymorgan1187 The Japanese who deserted were very few, the Soviets were unbelievably high and the French and Italians were just being themselves by wandering off when they felt like leaving the fighting to others.
@@seanlander9321 the French and Italians remind me of how war was waged in the medieval and early modern eras lol
@@bureidokaiza2829 around 100.000 germans abandoned their posts, 22.750 got a death sentence and 22.000 where executed.
30.000 had to serve in a so called "Strafbatallion" wich was a death sentence dragged out over some weeks or months.
another 20.000 deserted in the really last days and since everything broke down, got no punishment.
the rest got various jail sentences and many of them got released and "recruted" back to the army in the last half year of the war.
@@Asmodis4Only 20,000 Germans deserted in the last days of the war? Is that the actual figure or is it an estimate? Because I'm pretty sure the number shoiuld be higher.
Way higher.
The town I’m from, a guy deserted and hid in a small France village. He got married, and tried to move back here in around 1951 I think. He was ran out of town. Another guy from our town was in his unit, he was severely injured. He was the only guy on his side. I guess really though the guy that was injured is really the only one that should have a say.
I wonder what the severely-wounded veteran said to condone the crime of desertion.
@ I’ll ask my uncle if he remembers. He was about 15 at the time.
@@CharlieDexter99 while you are right that only those who have served should have a say in this case, I still would not feel comfortable around him.
For example, let's say I'm at the docks, and I slip. I hit my head and fall into the water, unconscious.
Now ANY guy can abandon me, afraid to lose his own life, but with THIS guy, we already know he picked his own life over that of others...
Kind of like with Ukrainian men who fled their country. Fine, let's feed them, clothe them, house them, and when the Russians come here they will abandon us as well. So long and thanks for all the fish
When push comes to shove, I prefer a guy to have my back, not turn his back
A lot more people helped in WW2, even if they weren’t fighting. People sacrificed wherever they were. They certainly have a right to be upset if someone wouldn’t help, but then tried to enjoy the rewards with everyone else.
Sounds like 'white-feathering'.
Considering the millions that served over the years of WW2, and how many were likely Draftees instead of volunteers, 50,000 is a surprisingly low number I think
In the US, about 70% of soldiers were drafted in WW2
It is when you consider that the US had 16 million people in uniform. .3%
I can buy it considering Americans who deserted couldn't make it back home to their families. That kinda takes away from the point of deserting. I mean unless they had no one to go back to and decided they would just make a new life where they were.
Just ignore the fact the US was involved for barely any time.
@@GromDarkwater 4 years at war with Japan is "no time"/ ok... you are the professor....
When I was young I knew a deserter from WWII. He had been a tanker, was wounded, and went AWOL from the hospital. He said the tanks were death traps and would never go back inside one. Years after the war he was found (in Colorado) but the military didn't want him back. They released him with an honorable discharge. Did I mention he had lost an eye and had burn scars on his face and hands. Great guy.
Would he have been sent back in to combat without an eye? I guess if he's job in the tank was to be the loader he would still be able to do it but I would have thought that would have gotten him medically discharged or at the very least put in some rear echelon job
Honorable Discharge? That is FUBAR !!!
He might also have suffered from claustrophobia.
Why go AWOL if he lost his eye. He would have been released on a medical discharge.
@@stephenhayden1618the only real honor is being your own man and not fighting other people's wars
In modern times, we were warned that desertion during a time of war could be punishable by death.
In practice, a guy in my class of medic trainees had his girlfriend drive up, and he jumped in, and they drove off.
Ten weeks later, I saw him getting yelled at by the Drill Sergeants. I guess he had a change of heart and came back. They were honestly angry that he did this because now they had to go through all the hassle of a court martial, reduce him in rank, and make him go through the course again rather than just stamp desertion on his file and leave things at that.
That’s not desertion though… that counts as Unauthorized Leave (UL) or Absence Without Leave (AWOL). Both punishable offenses, but not as harshly punished as desertion.
@@spartacus-olsson it was desertion until he returned, then it became AWOL.
@ intent matters. That’s the main part of the differentiation of desertion versus UL or AWOL - leaving your post with _intent to not return._ If that intention is not there, it’s not desertion.
The most recent example is the guy who went over to the North Korea. I think he's got a plea deal and is getting a dishonorable?
Still better coz he nutted than getting nutted by his officers.
My Father was in 3 major campaigns in WWII. North Africa, Salerno invasion, Anzio and into Rome. He said it was very common for guys to “go over the hill.” They would just disappear, usually either return or get nabbed, do time back in the Brig and get returned to the Front.
Something I've been wondering recently: What happened with the UK civilian fishing fleet during the war? I read somewhere that fish wasn't rationed, so were they still going out? Sounds dangerous. Run over by surface vessels, nets dragged down by subs. No thanks.
The British fishing industry was crippled during the early years of the war when the U-Boots could run rampant. The North Sea and English Channel were heavily mined, and the Royal Navy made it even harder by seizing many fishing ships to serve as minesweepers. Fishing in the North Atlantic continued, however. Not sure about the Irish Sea and the Scottish coasts, however.
Nets dragged down by subs is a non issue you just drop them, at the start it was uboat deck guns and later mines that where the big threat. Also planes for the few staying west during blitz
Not to mention, the mines… battleships and subs would have holes blown wide open from a mine impact, I can’t imagine what would happen to your local lightweight fishing vessel.
The protection of the fishing fleet from both sea and air was quite a big deal, and a big part of the job of "auxiliary cruisers", coastal and cross channel ferry ships refitted with old WW1 guns and AA mounts and assigned to convoy the fishing fleets around the North Sea.
They were often crewed by retired Navel officiers and volunteer merchant sailors.
Fighting anything bigger than an E-boat would have been suicide for them and they were no more than a few hours from the major German ports.
They mostly saw little action, but spent the entire war knowing that if they met a major surface combatant they would last no more than minutes.
The British fishing fleet had a great record of combat after defeating the Russian Baltic Fleet during the Russo-Japanese War.
Is it really evading justice? They were conscientious objectors. You don't wanna kill or die. Shouldn't be punishment for that
~16 Million Americans served in WW2 (per national parks)
So 50K/16M = ~5/16th of a _percent_.
For a bad stat that every army has that's not a bad number
For comparison to the British numbers in this, not sure if he means just from the British Isles or the whole empire.
Just the Isles troops of 5M (per BBC) 100k/5M = 2%
Whole empire troops of 8.5M (per uk gov) 100k/8.5M = ~1.1%
Given the British earlier experience (and entrance) into the war, I get why it's much more than the Americans
@@robot676 3.0M British enlistments, 100000 desertions, mostly in Europe.
@@robot676100,000 is British and Commonwealth, but bear in mind armies used different criteria, so the British and Commonwealth figures will include both under and over counting relative to the USA figures. Reconciling them with each other would require attempting to take a sample of individual cases and applying foreign military criteria and assuming military court outcomes, and so it's hard to compare. It's more accurate to say the USA, by its criteria, had 50000, British and Commonwealth, 100000.
@@seanlander9321 it's a Commonwealth figure, and there were significant numbers of desertions in other theatres. But different criteria and recording methodologies apply, so direct comparison is difficult.
@ It’s British. Given that there were no British courts martial of Commonwealth forces and the figures were obtained from British records, there’s no way that commonwealth soldiers can be included.
I would assume most of British desertions where around Dunkirk time and a lot in East Indies.
@@AnimalStomper The figure comes from an analysis by Charles Glass, and no, the desertions were mostly in Europe. There was no where to escape to in the Pacific and South East Asian war.
I think the North African campaign was particularly bad for desertion. (When Rommel was at his most effective)
My grandpa was a bomber pilot in the mighty 8th. He said the enlisted in his wing had a habit of lightly tossing a book of matches, pack of cigarettes, or any other small objects into the laps of girls they were talking to.
Apparently, girls would reflexively open their legs so their dress would catch the object. Guys, who were used to wearing pants, would instead bring their thighs together to catch.
I don't know how valid a tactic this was, or how necessary it was, but there must have been some boys out there that were VERY good with makeup and dresses for such a concept to have been thought of.
It was simply easier for soldiers to go home if they were already stationed in the UK
@@flyboymb That's one way to find the nuts out there.
I had no idea about deserters settling in France and becoming gangsters. I feel there are missed movie opportunities here.
Anyone but Michael Bay
I mean, you have to conscript people; you can't be that surprised when they don't loyally serve.
The rate for the UK was actually lower, the 100,000 was for all commonwealth soldiers.
Did not expect to learn how crime gangs and black market smugglers form up in Europe.
do you think that there were no gangs before that? please...
@richardgalbavy7103 Do I really need to specified? Come on, man.
@@richardgalbavy7103there were gangs, but the vets made them even more dangerous. It’s hard to compete if you’re a street gangster and your opponent is literally WW2 vet who still has their weapons.
@@richardgalbavy7103 why are you mad? USA is known for bringing criminals into Europe
Eddie's story is so sad. He flat out told his CO that he was too scared to fight on the front lines and turned in a letter confessing his desertion. They told him to throw it out but he didn't want to, so they court-martialed him and later executed him. He said he was chosen because he was an ex-con, but the only thing they directly punished him for was being afraid to fight. Out of tens of thousands of other deserters, they chose him. Poor guy. His last words: "Okay, Father. I'll pray that you don't follow me too soon."
He was from Detroit. His sister was one my teachers in Jr. High, I remember her talking about him in class because there was a prime time TV movie about him the night before. I don't remember what she said, but I remember that she seemed bitter about about it, which is understandable.
Family told me my uncle deserted after surviving an intense battle as an infantryman. He was caught sent to Japan after war to help in clean up effort
My father fought on the front lines in and around Germany and he was also wounded twice used to tell me you never know how you will react to combat. He said he knew if soldiers shooting themselves and other things to get out. My father never judged and used to tell me how terrible war was. He used to say you better not have any other options before you go to war because the things that go on in war is inhumane. He also said the hero thing is vastly played up. He said fear and the moment makes you do some amazing things.
Imagine refusing to fight a war you didn’t start all because you were scared to die just to be executed by your own people.
he proved his point with that though? atleast it was over quick and he did not have to kill anybody. Cant say the other slaves got so lucky
I've heard enough. The Unit Commissar is on his way.
@@SkyForceOne2
He proved nothing but him being unfit for duty and taking the easy way-out.
Better men took up the mantle, fought and often died for a much nobler cause than crime and, maybe too, cowardice. He knew he risked the death penalty. He played, he lost, and reaped the due consequence. Case closed.
Calling the ones who still fought on slaves is praising desertion. Outright disgusting to approve of crime but to slander the right path.
@@Briselance When rich people force you to kill anti-communist fighters...
@@BriselanceBeing forced to serve in the military shouldn't be a thing
My great great grandpa (British) deserted to visit his family when he learned they were being bombed by the Nazis. He hung out for a few days before going back to the front. I have no idea if he served any sort of sentence but will have to ask my great grandma about that.
When you said only one guy was actually executed i was hoping to hear that he did something heinous but from what I’ve read it just sounds like he was a scared kid who got really unlucky. Kind of heart breaking
the man was given many chances to reconsider....and he denied them at every turn. No heart breaking. just stupid.
@@shiftygypsy89migh41I mean the alternative was to go into a situation where he would most likely die. If you have no sympathy it's because you lack the empathy to imagine being in such a situation beyond watching WW2 videos and thinking about how cool it was.
@@shiftygypsy89migh41he didn't commit a crime ,he was conscripted and then murdered for not complying and simply wanting out ,they sentenced him as if he was a traitor working against his comrades but he instead simply didn't want to fight..
Like the video said desertion was not even punished so why give the treatment you'd give to a war criminal to a young boy?
@@feliceabbondante5183He had a criminal record, that's why he was singled out
@@feliceabbondante5183 he was given several options to rejoin the fight, in his own unit or in a different unit. He decided he had better chances with a court martial
Sadly for him, while Eisenhower was reviewing his appeal and was considering, as a human, to spare his life, the news of the German Ardennes offensive came in and Eisenhower was once again a soldier leading an army
He really drew the short stick
The excellent book Guns at Last Light goes into detail about desertion in the US army in Western Europe. The Allies faced such a shortage of infantry that most deserters wouldn’t face any punishment if they want back to the front lines. In fact at the beginning of the Battle of the Bulge there were thousands of soldiers awol in Paris
It's one thing to escape war and live, and another to just become a gangster and terrorizing civilians.
That's an interesting episode idea, though, like how many organized crime groups sprouted during the war.
If not, or if t's not documented well, then it would be cool to know the different prominent actions of organized crime across the globe to either help their governments or themselves during the war.
It’s really the same thing - personal self interest taking priority over the rules of society
I would say it was mostly Italian Americans I would imagine most would have found a way back to Italy to dodge the draft initially. Many Italian American gangsters moved back.
The problem with deserters is that they are by definition fugitives of a power operating in the region. They are most likely armed, desperate, and probably not able to do legitimate work when most of the other military aged men are absent. Even a decent person has few options if they deserted.
@@kaixiang5390no it isn’t 😂, not even a little bit
@@themrlupo3591
It is absolutely the same. With only a different degree.
Why would it be "surprisingly difficult" to know how many deserted? War is full of soldiers MIA; we're still digging up corpses from Barbarossa.
@jamesg90 You answered your own question, bud. Think about what you just said.
@@saintadolf5639 I kinda worded my first question poorly, but what I was trying to say is that, it shouldn't be surprising that it's so difficult to know how many deserted.
The last part of this clip makes for a damn good movie
Beware of statistics. You may be thinking of combat troops in the European Theater, of which there were 2 million from the U.S., but in the entirety of all branches of U.S. military in all theaters some 16.4 million served.
If we do the math for only the 2 million bona fide combat troops (not support troops) and only consider European operations, it maths to a tiny .025% desertion rate. But it’s not 50,000 from the 2 million in European combat, it’s 50,000 from the total of the 16.4 million which maths to .003%.
Bear in mind that desertion numbers are dependent on how they are reported. If a unit is barreling across the countryside under attack on their way to capture the next town, nobody is stopping to go back and look for a missing soldier. He will simply be recorded as not present for duty. Maybe killed, maybe lying wounded, maybe lost, maybe AWOL. Word goes back to following units to be on the lookout for your missing guy, but that may or may not happen.
As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Nowadays, we will put a hold on operations and send units searching for a deserter, often suffering combat casualties during the search.
Bowe Burgdahl ring a bell?
@CSMSteel7 Yeah, cause nowadays in the military leadership is much more responsible about ensuring everyone AND their sensitive items are present and accounted for. After EVERY movement you are required to check your squad and give an UP & UP on men & equipment. Lots of awful situations have happened in the past precisely because of lax standards.
Not only during World War 2, thousands of U.S. troop also deserted from their post during the Korean war and especially during Vietnam war.
During the Korean war, the Chinese PLA troop never give up or deserted from their duty and they fight till the last man. Hundreds of PLA troop was frozen to death while waiting to ambush an American convoy which the PLA troop did not leave their post without further orders from the superior.
More than half a million U.S soldiers deserted during Vietnam.
Never is a long time. I would think that all armies have had troops desert. If the communists did not desert. It was not due to loyalty... more likely fear of what their comrades would do to them or their families
I can understand being too scared to fight. However, being frightened is one thing, and using the weapon given to you to fight to instead hijack a truck and become a criminal is another thing entirely.
Not all were like that.
And yet the one who was frightened was executed while the hijackers lived happily ever after
You're assuming the gangsters were scared for virtue signaling shaming. Instead of the possible alternative that despite being forcefully enlisted into WWII, these particular men were more interested in going back to work being gangsters. Perhaps arming men who already were in the business was the crime.
@knightofkorbin888 I never said that I assumed the gangsters, specifically, were scared. I was referring to the ones who ran because they couldn't handle it.
William S. Burroughs walked away in Vienna, and they really didn't want him back.
I only know that an area south of Pisa ruffly around 30 km there was an enormous camp packed with deserters, mostly US troops guarded by MP and had closed this by high chicken wires. Some years ago it was cleared up by Caterpillar and kept on finding remains of those guys buried...
Wow honestly surprised to see you comment here. Don’t know if you remember, but we were in a G+ server years ago. Hope you’re well, man!
@wilkes406 yes I'm quite okay and been living for a while in Sweden ss at my girlfriend's beautiful farm driving the tractors 🚜! But I keep going back to Italy so it's not too bad. I still miss G+ as it was great fun ..
Che roba è G+?
Before you say it the British had more deserters because they were there from the start the Americans were just there after the allies were winning
Dr John Peaty calculated the desertion figure of the British at 99319 and observed that this did not include AWOL. By 1944 desertions in the British forces were described as a crisis and reflected on the low standard of discipline and moral of British infantry who were almost the entirety of desertions.
@seanlander9321 Yeah, because they didn't want any involvement in murdering their kin! No more brother wars!
@ Well that explains desertion against the Japanese then. 🙄
Australia has deserters in WW1. They were not executed because it was a volunteer force and they volunteered to join and they could volunteer to leave
You say "British"... does that mean the British Army alone, or all Commonweath Forces collectively? (Aussies, Kiwis, Canadian, Indian, Burmese, North African)
Because that number is either really large or really small, depending which...
British forces is the same as Commonwealth forces. While some of the Commonwealth nations like Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa were by 1939 sovereign countries, all Commonwealth troops served under British High command. Anything else would have led to complete chaos… officers in the British high command were mostly from the British Isles, but several were from other parts of the Commonwealth.
In 1943 in Europe, Commonwealth and US troops came under joint command of the Supreme Headquarters of the Allied Expeditionary Force (SHAEF). In the Asia Pacific Theatre they remained under British command throughout the war (with some notable exceptions serving under US high command).
@@spartacus-olsson Ok, so YOU in this video, are refering to Commonwealth troops as a whole, thankyou for clarifying, the terminology is not obviously unambiguous to a layman.
@@spartacus-olsson I think the easiest term to use might be DUKE (Dominion, UK, Empire)
Man i feel bad for Eddie. He's all like, "how many of us deserted? And I'm the only one being murdered for it? Well at least the punishments are severe for my fellow deserters. THEYRE ALREADY OUT?!?!?"
No one should ever be forced to fight. Voting should be done so that a nation chooses its path as a collective decision and not a decision made by a bunch of bunker princesses.
the majority of people are too stupid to vote on that
How about screw the voting...and you as an individual choose what's right and what is wrong.
I started hating them, then thought they are heroes, within seconds
"The Deserters" by Charles Glass covers this topic in an easy to digest, concise history.
I just ordered it from amazon,thanks for the suggestion,amigo.
I have a unique opinion on deserters.
Of course, desertion is the most simple form of treason - you're leaving your compatriots to face the enemy alone, knowing full well they need your help or they may not survive.
The justification many of them use for themselves is, "well, we're all going to die here anyway so I may as well live a little before the end". These people choose their own interests over service, and that's shameful when you signed up for it. Conscripts, however, should not be expected to remain loyal and present indefinitely and they cannot really be blamed for deserting as they're being compelled by a government to risk life and limb for a conflict where they have nothing to gain personally.
In either case, whether a volunteer or a conscript, if they can evade being apprehended for the duration of the remainder of their contracted term of service, they should be left alone permanently and never be pursued by the military courts.
However...if someone deserts and tries to return later, they accept the consequences of desertion.
My guy got the mad drip!
😮 WHAT ? 😮
Poor guy had the clap? Oof!
They were the smart ones. They knew their government was corrupt and didn't give a damn about them. So they took their own destiny in their hand
Thank you for the lesson.
That war was insane... i have never been put in that situation so I can't really call them cowards...
They didnt ask for war, nor did they sign up willingly... idk
The execution of Eddie Slovik, was a despicable act of singling out one person, for the purpose of making an example. The fact that his widow was never aware of his fate, until much later, and his grave was unmarked, was deeply disturbing!
The little bastard was given 3 chances to clean up his act and he refused to cooperate.
Ask the people in his unit who didnt desert what should have happened
@davedixon2068 What about the man who ordered his execution? Eisenhower. Ike was ALWAYS "in the rear with the gear". He was notorious for spending the war in London with his "driver" 25 year old Kaye Summersby. Ike was going to leave his wife for his mistress/driver but was eventually persuaded not to by more principled men. Anyhow, Ike ordered the execution while Ike was living the good life and sending thousands and thousands more men to their deaths. Ike was the real P.O.S.
@@saintadolf5639 your name tells it all. troll
@@saintadolf5639 Golf Foxtrot Yankee fascist
Based on the book deserters, most soldiers were just gone for a few days or even hours. The constant objection to military discipline was too much for some soldiers. Some soldiers experienced intense shelling on their first time in contact and then ran and that counts as desertion two. The vast majority of them made it back to their units and fought as any other soldier did.
To be fair, the UK was in the war for a two years longer than the Yanks, and fighting it almost alone by the 2nd year
Skill issue tbh
Skill Issue.
Just because you've insulted half of us: the US was also fighting someone elses war in Europe. The brits that deserted abandoned their own country and its people, and US deserters didn't want to die for an old enemy against a newer enemy.
@ALovelyBunchOfDragonballz how have I insulted anyone? I simply stated fact! The president didn't want to bring the US into the war. It took 2 years for that to happen and in that time the UK were almost alone. I can't see how you have an issue with the truth but that's your issue and not mine.
@@boyzinthewood1 I said half. The northerners are yanks, the rest of us arent.
Up to 10K US deserters resided in Paris alone. Enough to field a division.
20,000 US G.I Deserters in Paris alone by the end of WW2. Greatest generation. Maybe not everyone.
Kinda goes to show people are people no matter the generation. There are heroes and opportunists and cowards and those who once believed in a cause and then loose faith later, and all matters in-between everywhere
Maybe they just wanted to not die
All the unintelligent NPCs who cry about desertion wouldn't survive a day in war. War is awful. It's admirable to think for yourself and save your life instead of dying to satisfy the desires of rich warmonger politicians.
Fewer than 15% of a total population is ever 'fit for war.' When you see how over half of the US military (16m servicemembers) were conscripted, it should tell you that you're going to induct a lot of people who should not be there in the first place... like Eddie Slovik.
Many deserters had just seen, and done, too much. Shell-shocked, or PTSD, was still not generally accepted. Cracking in combat was often defined by the British army as 'lacking moral fibre'.
Those PTSD cases would have been mixed with the more cynical deserters without much attempt at distinction being made by anyone.
Imagine that not only is the US committing warcrimes daily, but even the deserters of their army , many of which did not know how to live without crimes.
What is a war crime? The only crime in war is the act of war itself.
To be fair the uk was in actual combat from 1940 France . The us did not see combat until operation tourch , also simply disobeying an order in the uk can see you charged with desertion
@@stop-the-greed from 1939 - the navy and air force was active in that period. Some of the early daylight bomber raids had losses as high as 80%.
@@wbertie2604 god bless the Raj.rif. reg.
@@wbertie2604 and the bef in 40 . I just deleted two comments as I completely misinterpreted your point (apologies) . .hope I did not offend .( Edit , as TH-cam thinks the bef is bed 🤔) auto correct is a aunt .
My “grand-uncle” deserted from the British Indian Navy while on a port call in the UK. The family was told he was missing in action. Only many years later when he felt safe would he contact back home. He ended up marrying a German. Set up a big plastics business in the UK and ultimately shifted to Florida.
The British fought from 1939 and were against the ropes for half the war. The US fought without fear of danger at home.
Which makes their deserters worse.
@@bollox8992
up until early 1941, the British had:
• Destroyed the German surface fleet.
• Neutralised most of the French fleet by sinking or starving it of fuel.
• Disabled a major part of the Italian fleet.
• Freely moving around the Mediterranean.
• Starving Germany of food and resources with the effective Royal Navy blockade.
• Beat the Luftwaffe over Dunkirk.
• Beat the Luftwaffe in the misnomer the Battle of Britain as Britain was never threatened.
• Occupied Iceland.
• Decimated the Italian army in North Africa.
• Were about to take all the southern Mediterranean coast.
• Germany was being bombed from the air with raids of over 100 bombers - 150 over Nuremberg - using the new navigational device, Gee.
• A massive air bombing fleet was being assembled.
• A matter of weeks after the US entered WW2 the RAF launched a *1,000 bomber raid* on Cologne.
• The RAF shot down over 700 German fighters over Continental Europe in 1941.
• Launched Commando raids on occupied Europe.
After the small BEF (only 9% of all allied forces in France) left France in June 1940, the British went on the rampage. So much so Franco told Hitler the British may win with him not joining in with Germany, fearing British occupation of Spanish territory. The Turkish ambassador stated Britain will win as it has a pool of men in its empire to create an army of 45 million (later an army of 2.6 million moved into Burma). In 1941 the British:
• Suppressed an uprising in Iraq;
• Beat the Vichy French in Syria;
• Secured Iran and the oil by invading;
• Drove the Italians out of East Africa.
• Controlled the Med coast from Turkey to Libya;
• Controlled Malta on the doorstep of Italy;
• Controlled both entrances to the Mediterranean;
• Controlled and freely sailing in the eastern Mediterranean;
*The British determined where the battlefields with the Axis were going to be.* After France 1940 Germany never had a significant campaign victory over the British Commonwealth ever again in WW2.
The Germans *FAILED:*
• To win the Battle of Britain in 1940;
• To win the Battle of the Atlantic in 1940/41;
• To control the eastern Atlantic;
• To control the Mediterranean in 1940/41;
• To control North Africa and the Middle East in 1940/41.
The British Commonwealth stopped the Nazis/Axis achieving all this well before the USA joined WW2 or even sent Lend Lease.
@@johnburns4017no to mention including commonwealth forces britian had a military of over 15,000,000
People really underestimate how big the British Empire was
@@datcheesecakeboi6745
In 1942 the British Empire and Commonwealth was fighting a three continent, 4 ocean campaign, against three major powers and incidentally trying to keep the Russians supplied and in the war, providing thousands of tanks and aircraft.
The British Army was the finest army in the World all told, logistics, intelligence, artillery, engineering, planning, medical supplies etc…No Army took more ground for fewer casualties than the British Army in WW2.
And it’s important to remember Britain’s strategic position was strong and secure, enjoying significant strategic successes in 39-42 whatever temporary, tactical setbacks. Britain was in it for the long haul. In 1941 the British were building more aircraft than Germany, Japan and Italy combined, 5,000 more than the USSR and 5,000 less than the USA.
Britain fought a highly technological and industrial war doing so very efficiently. "Steel not flesh" was the slogan, with Britain using not only her vast empire but her even larger _trading empire_ to maximum effect.
Throughout 1942 British Commonwealth troops were fighting, for or seriously expecting to be attacked, in French North Africa, Libya, Egypt, Cyprus, Syria (torn between expecting airborne assault, and preparing to reinforce Turkey if that country was attacked), Iraq and Iran (German invasion from the north was attracting more British troop deployment until after Stalingrad than those facing Japan and Rommel combined), Madagascar (fighting the Vichy French to prevent them from inviting the Japanese in as they had done in Indochina), Ceylon (at the time of the Japanese naval raid that looked like it might prefigure and invasion), India, Burma, outposts of the East Indies, New Guinea, Australia, New Zealand, Fiji, and other Pacific Islands.
The British Commonwealth and Empire had far more ground troops in action against the Japanese than the Americans. And again the British were supposed to maintain sea control over the North and South Atlantic's, the Mediterranean and Indian Oceans - and provided aircraft carriers and cruisers to help in the Pacific - while the Americans concentrated on just one of those powers.
The British were fighting, at any one time, a global war in the Middle East, the Far East, the Indian subcontinent, the Pacific, North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, the North Atlantic, the South Atlantic, the North Sea, the Barents and Arctic seas, the Mediterranean, the Adriatic and of course mainland Western Europe, Eastern Europe and Scandinavia too.
By early 1942 Britain was for the third year running, trying to prop up a blitzkrieged ally - France, then Russia, then the United States - but the incapacity of the U.S. Navy to provide any convoy protection on its east coast almost lost the allies the Battle of the Atlantic. Even after the British hastily deployed 60 escort vessels to cover the US coast, shipping losses climbed to a level that undermined British ability to feed themselves, keep the Russians in the war, keep the reinforcements flowing to the Middle East and Asia, and pander to a panicked Australian government.
For most of 1942 the British Commonwealth held the line, kept back the combined efforts of Germany and Italy and Japan (with fairly minimal input from the United States compared to her potential power), and kept the Atlantic and Indian oceans open and suppliers flowing to the vital armies in the Middle East and Asia, and to the Soviets. No other empire in the history of the world has been capable of such a sustained multi-continent and multi-ocean operation.
After France 1940 Germany never had a significant campaign victory over the British Commonwealth ever again in WW2.
@@datcheesecakeboi6745
My posts are being deleted.
My dad deserted the U.S. Army during WWII, not to escape combat but to get into combat. At age 22 in 1939, he enlisted in the U.S. Army after Hitler invaded Poland. Frustrated by the disinterest in the U.S. in getting involved in the war, in July 1940 after the fall of France he went AWOL and enlisted in the Canadian army, which was in the war and sending troops to England to guard against an invasion. He married an English girl while stationed there, and in 1942 was captured at Dieppe, spending the remainder of the war as a POW.
@@andrewbird57 Canadian army got the shit sandwich at Dieppe.
@@HughBond-kx7ly My dad suffered badly from PTSD, alcoholism took his life at age 55 when I was 15.
Land of the free, home of people who were punished for not fighting someone elses war.
Someone else’s war? Ever hear of Pearl Harbor? Look it up on a map and check out what country it’s in…
the American dream is a ponzi scheme
To be fair had America not intervened Europe and Russia would have fallen and eventually the US with the pressure of a Japan with complete control over Asia and a Germany control over Europe and Africa
Land of the free was never made and mantained so by the cowardice of such men.
Some people, in my native France, were known to say that whatever happened in Czechoslovakia, then Poland did not regard France. Yet war still came.
Also, the US came to exist precisely thanks to French people going to fight a war that "wasn't theirs".
@Briselance no, the French came to fight against the British so the war was to their benefit. Helping the US was a benefit but not a primary motivation.
My grandfather did, they threw him in the stockades for 3 months and the assigned him backline duties
Wow!! 100k Brits!? That's a LOT.
Indians ? Didn't want to
Die for essentially a
Slave owner ? 😮😢😮
@@patricewilcox792 The British Indian Army were volunteers. It seems unfair to attribute desertion to them over a conscript from the Home Counties.
@andrewklang809 yes but there was quite a few Indian SS volunteers...
@@paoloviti6156 they barely made a battalion, most of them were pow'sduring Italian front, most of them didn't know German so pretty much bigger issues on miscommunication, these were made exactly around the time when us and soviets were pushing which meant they were losing anyways so low morale which probably led to desertion at ending stage of war, the battalion remained ineffective during it's lifespan and was mostly used for supporting role , Now ofcourse Indian national army is a different case
100k Commonwealth forces*
Imagine getting mugged by a ex soldier with his 21 inch Springfield rifle with a bayonet on it
Its almost like the regular people dont want to fight stupid wars
yeah but you'd go to war for that very prospect so people responsible will puppeteer the entire world around you, every virtue and thing you like to make you do that anyways so
The best deal was reserved for those who got interned by the neutral countries, such as Ireland or Sweden. They became guests of the state, and by definition they were neither deserters nor POW. And, they were released after the end of the war, and got full benefits as veterans.
Nah executing deserters is messed up
I wonder how many soldiers the Germans had executed? Pretty sure it was a lot more than one.
Peak democracy.
I ALMOST thought the sentence started... "some fifty thousand years ago".... 😂😂
They ran for office?
Only those who were rated 4F due to bone spurs...
Just a question how to make a difference between missing or desertion ? In cases where the person is never found .
Missing usually happens in combat. Hence missing in action. Desertion happens outside of combat, typically away from the lines.
If a man disappears when his unit isn't in combat, desertion can be assumed. A company is going to notice when one of their number vanishes with no explanation.
That's probably where the uncertainty on the exact numbers comes from. Though it is worth noting that the figure for MIA does imply there was some manner of military action going on at the time of their disappearance. There are conceivable cases where this could be desertion or not - a messenger carrying orders from HQ is conducting a military action (that being: conveying orders), and an enemy interception in which they are captured and taken prisoner is possible, but them just deciding "nope, I'm going anywhere other than the front lines, thanks!" is also possible. Both leave no body behind to be identified (stray shellfire or just slipping on a trail down a steep embankment and dying from the fall into some underbrush can also accomplish this, at least in the short term. But for most soldiers..."action" implies combat, which is not really conducive to the kind of planned out desertion that's needed to never be found again.
Ever since WWI, it's generally been considered that the likely fate of any soldiers who remain MIA in the long term are soldiers who were unfortunate enough to encounter shellfire or other such explosives at the kind of range that doesn't leave identifiable remains. After all, it's not like they don't look around after a battle, and keep their name and identifying characteristics on record long term so that, if they show up again, a debriefing can be held to figure out what happened in the meantime.
Of course, this changes significantly when charges of desertion start being brought against soldiers who merely retreat on their own initiative. Often this gets a lesser label, like going AWOL, or Cowardice, and results in disciplinary action but not execution - after all, while a soldier can rout in the heat of the moment, most of them have not decided they are fully ending their service in the military at that exact moment and are instead more interested in being somewhere that the enemy isn't. But this has rather famously been used by desperate authoritarian regimes (including both the Soviets and the Nazis at different points in WWII) to attempt to make the front line troops more afraid of the authorities above them than the enemy attacking them. Sometimes this also includes soldiers who surrendered and were taken prisoner rather than fighting to the death, in which case it's probably very simple: all of the missing are deserters. But...this isn't exactly a standard legal framework under a properly run military in full compliance with the Geneva Conventions and other agreements on how war is to be conducted.
I read a report 20 years back where a number of men charged for desertion had to prove their case that they got lost in the fighting. Had they been French in WW1, they'd have been shot. Americans should count themselves lucky.
Desertion is a very well defined label. You are not missing in action.
the ONE guy that was killed was super unlucky. they basically had to set an example and he got the short end. its really messed up actually.
My great grandfather avoided the draft for years, and when he was caught he spent the end of the war stealing weapons and selling them on the black market in Europe.
Based.
So he was one of the gangsters mentioned.
In Australia the majority of conscripts in WW2 were not really volunteers. Due to economic conditions at the time many Australians were receiving regular food vouchers mostly issued through the local police station, when the war broke out the food vouchers stopped and they were all told there was a job in the army for them. They really had no option other than to go. Not sure if it was the same in the US and the UK.
Eddie was just a kid with a shit upbringing and a hard life. He probably got his bell rung during the shelling and was likely suffering from PTSD. Maybe he wasn't the brightest guy, refusing to destroy his note and all, but he sure didn't deserve to be shot like a dog. He should be posthumously pardoned.
This took me on an hours long journey learning more. Eddie was only 24 years old and was married. Thankfully, he was the last soldier executed for desertion.
Being an infantryman in the WWII US army was not a good fate and for those who landed in Normandy it was a death sentence (99% of them died in action before end of the war due to the fact once in combat you had to stay on the front until your death or until you got maimed too bad to come back after hospital tour or until end of war). The IRS system was a mess and called criminal by some US officers after the war. Yeah as for Slovik I would have taken my chance in court instead of going back to the meat grinder.
That 99% number is utterly made up right? On D- day itself "only" 2500 americans dies out of the 59 000 who landed. For the entire western front from D-day onwards about 150.000 US soldiers died, out of about 2.000.000 who served on the western front. That's 7,5%. I'm not willing to do research on those who landed on D-day itself, but I am certain it's nowhere near that 99% number.
@@slome815 the units that landed on D-Day were thr units that served in Europe the longest
The vast majority did die, there a reason there's only a very very very small handful of veterans to talk about d-day after the war ended
@@datcheesecakeboi6745 units were rotated out of the front line, though.
Airborne troops were rotated back to the UK as they had specialist skills and there was little sense in having them being all lost and those skills with it.
The Battle of the Bulge started with an attack into an area of 'resting' divisions that weren't in active fighting prior to the start of the attack.
@wbertie2604 while true those resting units were still not safe, they were still in the European theatre
The only safe place in ww2 was america, London to Berlin to Tokyo/Kyoto were being actively bombed
@slome815 I think he talked about the original guys from their respective units not counting replacements, I agree that 99% is not realistic but somewhere I heard the 28th IF took more that 16k casualties during the war (KIA, WIA, MIA, etc) and the 1st IF total casualty percentage during the war was like 200%
when the average US infantry division had 10 to 15k troops I'm not good at math but that mean that maybe not a lot of the original guys who left the US where around to witness in some manner the end of the war
I cannot remember where i read this story of Federal soldiers deserting the front lines and trying to swim to boats to escape the fighting. The Union soldiers on the ship were told to shoot the deserters in the water.
One of the officers remarked about the fanaticism of the deserters to get on that boat. If they used that same crazed determination in the opposite direction towards the Rebel army, the war would be won.
If they found you they would kill you. A man made it all the way back home to his family. One morning the military came to his house looking for him. He ran out the back door and they opened fire on him as he was running through the garden. The ham in his mouth from eating breakfast was still warm.
That never happened
@firefly9838 try again. 1946. All deserters were put before the firing squad. He was from our small local town. Everyone still talks about it today.
@@dentonthomas5622 What town was that?
@dentonthomas5622 And the war was over in 1946. Sounds like someone was pulling your leg
@saintadolf5639 Google it bro
I remember watching a documentary on cable about how many air crews purposely flew into Switzerland during the war. They were held there for the duration of the war and settled there after the war. They showed grave stones with Anglo names. Was on once and then not shown again
When you have lots of conscripts, there may be a higher desertion rate.
It was primarily desertion from the millions of soldiers provided by countries such as India.
Also the draft was not really well enforced. The war was so popular that they had enough troops, and kids who were under enlistment age would steal identities to sign up. There were even cases of people signing up during the brief period of draft letters being sent and pre delivery
I could imagine that this was true at the beginning of the war, right after Pearl Harbor. But after years of fighting? Hard to imagine
Imagine dying because you decided you didn’t want to risk your own life for a country that will ignore your suffering
Those 100k were fighting for longer, on more battlefronts, some in retreat, some from the japanese advances in asia
I have the feeling that this was one of many things that was covered up in our us history books
Edit: the reason I’m saying this is because a desertion is just as important as a casualty, not because I don’t listen to history
"Oh my god, The education system is covering this up!"- Whenever a guy learns about something new in history.
In reality not that important of a topic in the overall outcome of the war.
At best a footnote to history.
We covered this in History, but hey it's easier to just blame the education system when you were probably just too lazy to listen 😎
@@shawnr771its a very crucial statistics to determine loyalty, morale, and patriotism of the troops, the way i see it
@alamrasyidi4097 In the grand scheme of millions of troops not that important for a high school history class.
In this day and age those that are interested can use google.
Another mystery is how many troops deserted during the Vietnam War?
When I served in Vietnam 70 - 71 I know there were scores (?) of black deserters living in Soul Alley in Saigon - living off the black market as best they could.
I always wondered what happened to them when South Vietnam fell in 1975.
Were they quietly repatriated by the U.S. government, or did they choose to remain in Saigon (now Ho Chi Minh City)?
I would love to know the answer. 🤔
How did they desert methods?
You hear gunshots, you head the other way. Easy
Desertion is not that hard in fact it's one of the things you are taught to look for when your standing duty so if you are attempting to flee you mainly have to worry about MPs or other GIs on duty however in an active warzone they are looking for the enemy not one of their own guys attempting to run away.
step 1: run
step 2: keep going
ez
Be in the rear of a formation as it's on the move, use sick call and wander off, tell your buddy to wait for you as you bolt... hop in a supply truck...
Remember that a large number of these cases were simply not returning from leave and in a lot of cases the punishments were quite lenient, it's all dependant on how long and the reason e.g. a soldier who had been in combat for an extended period would be shown more leniency than a replacement who deserted with little to no combat.
Most of the British deserters were soldiers in India, realizing Churchill was actively and willfully starving the entirety of India to feed the British war effort
Most sane people likely won't wanna fight under someone like Wavell
Well they definitely bounced back because there's like 2 billion of them now
@@edluke3415 India didn’t have a famine ever since British left.
@@5isalivegaming72 Nope. The desertion figures here are provided in the analysis by Charles Glass, and almost all are in Europe.
@@dragonstormdipro1013Didn't Bangladesh have a famine in the 70's! It would have been about the same area as the war time famine.
Compare that to what the US promised to Vietnam deserters 💀
Labourcamps????????
The 13th Amendment my fine fellow
@@cheften2mkWe really should patch that loophole.
@cheften2mk what does it state
@@pietpanzerpanzer5335 13th Amendment bans most forms of slavery (including serfdom), EXCEPT for prison labor. This exception was a compromise made to get the 13th Amendment passed. The South proceeded to make being black illegal (Black Codes, Jim Crow, etc.), to justify re-enslaving them. After integration, the war on drugs was launched to justify continuing to arrest black people and using them for prison labor (POC are stereotyped as using drugs more than whites, even though all groups use drugs at about the same rate).
There is both a book and movie staring Martin Sheen. I believe it was a TV movie. "The Execution of Private Slovik"
Forced to fight in a pointless war , The deserters are the real heros
@louisnall3102 Japan definitly was bad but let's not pretend that America didn't pretty much force Japan to start a war, you know with the whole oil/natural resource stuff.
@louisnall3102 Let's not pretend those sanctions were because the Americans were the 'good guys' and needed to stop a tragedy. If it wasn't because they didn't want a more powerful Japan with more resources, they wouldn't have given a damn.
Great presenter. Very professional
I would like to know why there where twice (approximately) as many British deserters as American.
A couple things there. Brits were at war for 2 and a half more years than the US. Plus the Brits experienced some of the worse military losses of the war. I wouldn't be surprised if a significant percentage of that came when they were getting run over in Europe in 1939.
@@rogerd777 I’m 80% percent sure the answer is the British Indian Army.
Americans typically used STDs instead to escape from the front, which is why the rates of rape by US troops in France was so high. Then the Australians turned up with penicillin and within weeks tens of thousands of US troops were back on the frontline.
@@gma5607 That would make a lot of sense.
@@gma5607 Kinda depends what's included in the statistics of 100k, only troops of GB itself or from the whole commonwealth
Poor eddie. Imagine being the only guy executed for desertion, when forty nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine of your brethren, did the same thing.
Meanwhile, Australia which was proportionately the most mobilised of the Allies had fewer than 200 desert from one million enlisted. What brought on such an extraordinary high rate of cowardice with the British?
Maybe that they got bombed to shit in the beginning of the war and also fought from the beginning to the end across the world and alone for most of the time
If I had to guess, I’d assume the majority of deserters were colonial/British Indian Army troops.
@ Britain never fought alone. Australia fought just as long.
@@gma5607 I don't think so. I mean indians? Maybe, because a big Anti British and pro independence sentiment was rising back home. But I don't think Canadians or Africans would be deserting, nor the Aussies.
@@gma5607 So the rate of desertion of the British was 3%, while Australia’s was .0002, which proves the lack of discipline in the British forces. No wonder Churchill refused to have an election, he must have been worried about a popular vote to end the war.
To be fair, a lot of deserters were going thru PTSD and shell shock. We also had NO idea how bad the Axis was.
true,
nowadays many women have high testosterone, we must draft women as well and have less harsh penalties for desserters.
This will balance out our need for troops next war
draft all genders!
I see a lot of peapole talking about how would our world look like if germany won during ww2, but i dont see a lot of peapole talking about what if germany won in ww1, how different could mordern europe and USA be?
Kaiserreich
@chombus2602 yeah but would hitler still be able to gain as much power in the politics if there was no hyper inflation, would austria hungary still fall apart and make way for SHS and yugoslavija
@@chombus2602 A very popular Hearts of Iron mod, for the uninitiated.
@@Starg4z3r Hitler would have no path to power if the pre-war conservative order survives.
@Starg4z3r honestly might not be so bad lmao
If you remember "The Execution of Private Slovik" starring Martin Sheen, you are golden.
@@rationalbasis2172 I remember it well 1973 Martin Sheen and Gary Busey. Ned Beatty was the army chaplain at the execution.
@@HughBond-kx7ly I was a teen I think, but it certainly stimulated an interest in history. Also, Slovik was from the place I grew up.
The British figure includes commonwealth and empire troops. The majority of the 100, 000 were Indians. Please don’t imply the British were deserting in large numbers when they weren’t.
Those indians were British, willingly or not, and defended the UK more than a british online nowadays.
@ I’m not sure this is worthy of a response. They weren’t British but Empire troops. The rest of what you say is irrelevant.
@@williamrees6662 Which empire? The BRITISH Empire: They were British subjects serving under British command. I think that counts as British.
@@williamrees6662When the war ended 21,000 United Kingdom residents from the British Isles were listed as deserted. Of them 8,000 were apprehended and received prison sentences of varying lengths.
@@Jelperman No it doesn’t. Learn some history.