The Big Helix: Laying Track On A Big Curve (256)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- Laying track can be a big enough challenge even when it's done on a flat, straight section, but when curves are involved it gets a bit more delicate. So on a helix with it's long continuous curve you have to be ready with your "A" game. In this video I'll show you how I lay flex track on the 30" radius curves of my big helix to get smooth, flowing curves that will make it easier for my trains to ascend the 19 inches between the staging yard level and the main level of the layout. So let's bend some iron!
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Hi Larry, great channel.
A tip when soldering; after cleaning your iron tip apply a small amount of solder to the tip (tinning the tip) then apply it to the part to be soldered, when you see the tip solder wick onto the rail apply your spooled solder to finish the job. The blob on the tip will transfer the heat much quicker than a dry solder tip. For track work maybe double the size of your solder. The size you're using is great for PCB work.
Cheers, Happy Christmas
I used Jeff Johnson's method on a helix I built some time ago, worked great. I used #6 screws because I could not locate #4, I used the washers too BUT I found that some of my rolling stock and locos would catch on the screw heads. To fix this, I would hold a washer in Vise Grips, then using a ball rasp in my motor tool, I would chamfer the hole in the washer, this was a bit tedious as my helix was 5ft by 6ft and 9 levels, but I would only do two levels at a time so it was within my patience boundaries.
Just a suggestion. Kreg tools has a pocket hole jig system. And they have screws that have a washer type head already built in. I have 1 1/4" length ones which fit between the ties and the washer head held the ties down., but they also have 3/4 and 1" so they wouldn't come out from underneath the roadbed.
Looked at their website but can’t find anything under 1”. Got any specific name, number?
I would recommend making a curved spacer. Either the outside or inside. Measure from the outside of your plywood to the edge of the ties. Clamp it down on the plywood and just push your rail up against it and secure.
the measuring tool is called a opisometer. for measuring maps
I have an ancient Black and Decker electric screwdriver identical to yours. **LOL**
When I make curves like that I like to stagger the joints so you won’t get no kinks so I think that’s the best way to do on a helix is the stagger the jointsI see that that works best
When curving flex track, be aware some flex track has a continuous plastic runner between ties along one side of track and skips on the other side. The continuous ties should be on the inside of curve and the skips to the outside. The skips can be stretched but not compressed. Don't ask me how I know.
Yes, Atlas flex track is like that, but it does have some splits on the side that is more continuous. However it can be bent either way and it just makes a difference in appearance as one way the split ties are compressed towards each other and the other way they are splayed out. Personally I prefer Peco and MicroEngineering as they have more spaces on both sides, although ME has the most. Peco rails slide more easily and it it easier to curve but ME holds what ever shape you bend it too much better. I generally use ME but will buy Peco in a pinch. I’ll show this in the feedback segment next time.
Thank you for sharing. Enjoying this series.
Nice work Larry. Can't wait to see it take shape.
I was watching your video on laying out the benchwork, but was interrupted. Can you provide the dims. Thanks Larry and keep doing what you do..
The video is still there so you can just go back and pick up where you left off. I also covered all those details in the design video.
I've used this method on both my HO helix inside the house and my G gauge (45mm) layout outside the house. It sure makes for easy construction, and even better, easy modification when the track plan changes. Also, having a little side-to-side movement helps avoid kinks when temps can go from below freezing to 120F in the desert!
Awesome update..thanks for sharing and keep up the great work..Lance
Looking Great Larry
Cool 😎 vid Larry, looking forward to your next episodes. Very interested in the block detection you’re going to install.
Hey Larry, built a significant helix to move through the three levels of my layout. One thing I did was I staggered the rail joints, rather than cutting them flush. I found this extra step (or two or three steps) ensured there was never a kinked connection between flex tracks. The helix is constructed with ready rod and the plywood is supported by alumimium flat stock. Althought this method may be a little more work at the start, once you start the process, it goes quickly. In addition, I used a laminite floor underlay (foam rubber(?)) stappled and glued to the plywood to kill the noise. I have had a great deal of success with this underlay. In the "exposed" track areas off the helix, I sprayed it with a speckled stone spray paint and it looked great.
When done the way I showed you won’t get kinks. Solder them together straight them bend to final curvature.
I use his "screw-washer" method on all my track:
First I glue the roadbed down with glue/caulk and wait for it to dry
Next I glue the track to the roadbed and use the screws to hold it down and let it dry.
Then I ballast and let it dry
Then I remove the screws and fill in the ballast where the screws were.
Anyone building any curve using flex track should consider following the natural stagger of the rails resulting from the difference in radius of inner and outer rails.
Thanks for a very instructive video Larry!! At first I thought the idea of washers and screws to hold the track was too "anti-prototypical" ... but then again ... so is a helix! Therefore, I like the idea because it's very practical.
Actually there is a helical track in Canada. The Spiral Tunnels at Kicking Horse Pass in western Canada are an example of a helix on a 1:1 railroad.
@@petechimney6755 Thanks Pete ... I'll look up!!
I can't say I like the idea of screws and washers holding down the track... something just too primordial about it!. However it will certainly work and if you are using this technique I recommend using an awl to punch a locating "divot" in the plywood to help start the screw.
Yes, I got my awl out already, makes it a lot faster than pre-drilling pilot holes.
I don’t have a railroad as live in a flat in London but your brilliant channel keeps my dream alive for when I retire and move to the country. Just hope I can do it sooner rather than later. You really put a huge amount of work into every video, just the camera work alone is great and your script flows like water and your editing is extremely professional.
No script, it just flows out of my mouth as one unencumbered stream of thought, which may be why I occasionally “waffle” on as some commenters have suggested!
To top it off, he gets all that done while still spending most of the time sitting down on the job. :>}
Another fine missive Larry thankyou. I would like to offer a word of advice on the use of the track cutters, if I can be so cheeky! I have found that when the cutters are used vertically, as you showed, I always had to file the track ends! But if the cutters are used horizontally a very good shearing action can be attained. Not only that but very fine slivers can be removed too. Also, I rarely have to file the rail ends. BUT, there is always one, the cutters must be dead sharp. If they have nicks or burs on the cutting edge, then it is not as good. I keep mine sharp and only use them on nickle silver. I never any other metal.
I hope you don't mind my critique. I enjoy your videos very much.
Agree. The Xuron 2175B is designed for lateral cuts. It will only cut one flush clean edge and the cut away piece will have a '
I helped two friends build multi-story helixes. What we did after building the first rise section was to run steam and diesel engines up and down the track and let loose freight cars roll downhill. We checked that the track was aligned and there were no issues. Then when we finished the next loop up we repeated the test.
The last thing you want is after all of the loops are installed is to find a section or connection between two rails in the middle of the helix causes an issue with operations. And then have to tear out part of the helix to fix the issue. A bit of testing now can save a pile of headaches later on.
Wait for the next video, don’t get ahead of me. I shot those tests runs today!
Awesome 🚂❤️😎👍
Great video Larry. I must say I had my doubts at the beginning, but the results at the end and the rationale were spot on. Your detailed explaination was excellent as well. Have you considered using a nail set to create a small starter hole for the screw? It would only require a light tap and it may help prevent some wobble and give you better control.
I have found an awl does a good job of creating a starter hole.
@@TheDCCGuy excellent, even better than a punch.
I haven't built my helix yet but anticipate copying your method. Although I intend to be impossibly fussy with landscaping elsewhere, I see as little point to trying for prototype realism on a helix as in a hidden staging yard. Mounting track directly to plywood will save cost and effort I'd much rather spend elsewhere on the layout.
If I find my helix noisy it will most likely end up surrounded by a heavy cloth curtain suspended on a runner curved to suit the construction. I may even use velcro buttons to fasten it to the loop outsides to catch the possible falling equipment, with an inside curtain to do likewise. Any cheap, heavy cloth will do both jobs well. Since I also sew it will be simple to make the curtain and mount it with a loop cord allowing it to be opened and closed remotely, inside or out. All the fixtures, etc., for making such a curtain are available everywhere, and you don't really even need to do any sewing if you can live with plain cut fabric edges.
Two questions, Larry, which I hope are not repeats of others already asked:
1. Why so wide a roadbed (the plywood) for a single track? I can imagine several reasons but I can't wait to hear yours.
2. Did you consider double-tracking your helix? Again I can foresee several pros and cons but look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
As always, great video, useful, well thought out and well executed. Thank you so much!
In the case of noise, I find that the sound equipped locos make more noise than the rolling stock and I do want folks to hear something so they know thier trains are running. The roadbed width is dictated by 2 factors. (1) The need to make sure your longest cars and locos can go around the curves, and (2) to allow for the width of the vertical risers, they take up 1 1/2” of that width. As for double vs single track, in this helix, which serves the staging yard, I don’t expect that many situations where two trains will need to leave and enter at the same time so no need for double tracks. And if it does happen then one train will be at the end of its run so any wait will be OK. On my helix in the middle of the layout I looked over my schedule and found that there was only one instance where two trains will meet at that location, so one meet in a 3-4 hour op session will not be an issue.
Seems like an easy way to hold down track where it's not "part of the scene". No need to weigh it down until things dry, no difficult to remove mini nails through the tie holes. The only thing I can see going wrong is the washer or screw head snagging a rod hanging down from a coupler. I've heard the rods can be bent a little if too low. Thanks for showing it.
The tops of the screws are well below the rails so anything hanging down that far would have snagged on the rails at a crossover long before it got to the helix.The sizes are critical as a #6 screw head sits at about rail level so that would concern me but a #4 fits just right.
@@TheDCCGuy Excellent. It was someone speaking of a coupler rod hitting through turnouts that triggered the thought.
Hello .. I have found a tool like the one you used called the Geneva Ruler
I was wondering what brand of flex track you are using. Larry I would also like to say thank you all your great videos
I generally use MicroEngineering track and turnouts, although I also have used some Peco and I used Atlas on the reverse loop. The ME and Peco are similar enough not to be noticeable. However I only use the Atlas where no one can see it.
Excellent video as usual Larry. Have I missed something though? Is this not a DCC layout, and when are you proposing to add power feeders to the flex-track sections?
Patience is a virtue!
Larry, do you think the sound from the helix area would be as loud as a typical bench top layout with solid plywood, which creates the sound board? I would think not with strips of plywood used in the helix and thus not being much a of sound board.
This project is quite tedious. Keep up the good work and hang in there. Thank you for all of your videos, I enjoy them very much.
I agree that it should not be as loud since there is no sound board effect. One thing that becomes quickly obvious when you start a project like this is that it is a lot more complex than presented in magazine articles. I have now been working on this for 5 weeks and have 2-3 more to go! Also once you get more than one level of track you can’t just step over to get into the center. Crawling under gets old fast especially with my vertigo.
Since you were stating to wire the feeder every 6 to 8 feet do you need to put the plastic rail joints in between the sections.
Not between the feeders, just when you isolate the blocks. In the case of the detection blocks it is only necessary to isolate the rail that is powered through the detector and for those I just cut a gap with the Dremel. At the bottom and top of the helix I do gap both rails creating a totally isolated block for the helix.
Have you thought about using tracksettas for doing the curve.
Thanks for the video. Would the washers holding the track interfere with the uncoupling wire on knuckle couplers?
As long as everything is below the top of the rail it won’t interfere. Uncoupling wires shall be above the top of the rail per NMRA standards to clear turnouts, crossing, and other places where there’s stuff going on between the rails.
Larry what video do you show block detection on the helix , want rematch that video
As a suggestion why not place the track and hold several pieces in place with thumb tacks then put the screws in. Opposed to doing one at a time. After all the screws are in then rem9ve the thumb tacks.
Might want to cut out the first two rail ties on each section to ease the connector install.
Using tacks would almost double the time it takes. Once you do a couple of these it goes real fast just bending the track and putting in the screws. The track holds the curve well once bent to shape.
Later on when you test your first train . Can you explain why your long lumber car or just long cars want to tip in.? For Larry.
Are you asking about something you saw in a specific video or something else? Are you asking about string lining?
I was taught to stagger the joints by a half of the 3 foot section and I saw that a couple other people also stated that. I understand that the way you’re used to doesn’t kink but can you address the staggering of the rails? Does it provide any additional strength to the curved track?
I’ve never seen that done with flex track, only hand laid track. Even if the joints are offset you still need to solder them straight before making the final bend to prevent the kinks. Since I have never hand laid track I have not tried a 3’ stagger which would be very difficult with flex track since it is only 3’ long.
Larry. Not to change the subject but I 'd like to thank you on your informative videos of powering the frog and the benefits of that. We had recently installed a Peco 83 turnout using a SMAIL switch machine, installed a signal light and powered the frog. What a world of difference it makes. I have several Rapido SW1200 RS and they can crawl over the frog without stalling or shorting the system. Like you said "you do a face palm and say Why didn't I do this before??!!!". this was our 17th SMAIL from Circuitron, we have installed and the first with a powered frog. now we have to backtrack on the other switches. Is there any advice about powering the frog on a switch that is already laid down or is just the inevitable that need to pull them up? Fortunately we do not have any ballast or scenery applied yet, so the answer I'd assume is rip it up. Can you use the Atlas snap switches to power a frog or are they momentary power only? Again, we wouldn't have been able or had the confidence to do this without your great , in-depth videos!!
Thanks Larry!!
Cheers from Ontario Canada!
Earl
It depends on the type of turnouts you used. If they are already DCC Friendly then it will just be a matter of connecting (soldering) a feeder wire to the frog. Otherwise you will have to make the modifications in situ which could be easy or a pain or i extreme cases cutting the existing turnout out and replacing it.
@@TheDCCGuy Larry, I should have mentioned in the comment, all are Peco 83 Insul frog turn-outs. The bulk of them are 11 large curved radius turnouts that are spiked directly to a 3/4" plywood top for our storage yards. They were quite a project to lay down and we didn't think we would ever rip them back up...lol
Since you solder your rail joiners, how do you allow for thermal expansion/contraction of the rail?
I don’t worry about it since my layout stays at about 70 degrees plus or minus a few, year around. However I do install gaps at a number of locations as block gaps which would also serve the same purpose. I discussed this in my staging yard video on laying track and I’ll provide a link back to that video next Monday or Turesday.
@@TheDCCGuy Thanks Larry, problem is you have done so many videos, I have trouble keeping up :-) ! I'll root out this one and 'ave a buchars. Meanwhile keep up the good work. Always revealing, always entertaining, and I'm always glad you remember us in the UK also watch your output! Chris.
Do you not find with soldering rail joiners that you have trouble with expansion and contraction. Just a queery?. Frank
Nope, it stays about 70 F in my basement year round. In the past though I have shown how to leave expansion and contraction gaps in the rails for such circumstances. I will have gaps to subdivide the loops into detection blocks though.
I have a similar concern. His comment about having a stable environment helps a lot but not all of us are so fortunate. I'll be following to see how the block detection gaping works.
Why worry about the tie spacing when in most helixes the track will never be seen??? Most of my friends that have them will have them under a mountain. Also, a good practice is to have a rerailer just inside any tunnel or hidden track as an insurance policy for no derailments. Why would you not use some kind of sound deadening base under the track???
Detectors sounds like a very good idea. Never thought of that in a helix. One friend has a camera inside his helix and it works pretty good. Very wide angle lens...
I have Atlas rerailers ready to install on the straight approaches. I also use them on approaches to bridges and my staging yards.I wish I had installed one on each yard track.
Instead of using washers use 5/8" long trus head screws. Save time and money
Sounds interesting but how big are the heads, thick and wide?