Dude you should do a series called mystery gun Monday were people sending pictures of mystery guns and you try to identify them and then tell us their history
This is a completely unfounded theory, but it would make sense for a mid-late 1950s mystery rifle without clear manufacturer marks to be a weapon that was intended to go to Cuba. A rifle that was supposedly bound for Haiti would be easy to divert at the last minute to a neighboring island.
That makes sense. The eastern bloc was used by the USSR to prop up communist regimes overseas. It would make sense that small arms would be sent to countries like Cuba or Vietnam. Funny thing, Vietnamese rice was returned by the way of barter for weapons and repackaged in Czechoslovakia and then exported further into the world, making Czechoslovakia the biggest european rice producer, at least on paper.
Until a better answer comes along I'm going to assume it was made for some abortive CIA attempt to overthrow Tito. I have no evidence for this hypothesis.
Devin Moorhead Sometimes forgotten, sometimes unique weapons from countries that alot of people don't know about but are well known in their own country. Not a criticism. Take Ian's video on the Owen for example,im an Aussie and knew it but others didn't, like I said interesting
It's a demonstration rifle by cz I own a mauser in 7mm made in Germany(all the prof marks are intact) with brizian crest on the front ring also the wood stock on my rifle is extra fine.like that rifle uselly a dead give away about that kinda thing.
I am going to take a wild swing that this is a Yugoslavian sample gun. They had both piles of ancient surplus Mausers, as well as an active production line for them. The armourers at the factory took some blank/refurbished parts from the bin, engraved markings on them that signified only the general locations and sizes of markings that the customer might want on the gun and handed it over to the salesman. Hence, sample gun #10, Haiti 1957. Order never came, but a strange curiosity remained and found its way to the US.
The poor quality and non-standard of the Haiti marking compared to the other markings on this gun and the marking on the fn guns, the odd chambering, and non history of the gun could be explained by an attempted forgery.
This is just my possible theory, but if it is a legitimate rifle and not a counterfeit, it could be it used to be a Polish Wz 29 (hence the 10’s for the factory in Poland), rearsenaled by CZ in Czechoslovakia in 1953 (CZ 29-53) for export service to Haiti as a police or security weapon, since I remember it was common practice even today in smaller countries for police and the military to use different weapons so they can’t use the same ammunition or parts as the other?
The stock length is wrong. The handguard is wrong. The barrel length is wrong. Its very unlikely. Although i do have a polish K98 in a wz29 stock so i guess anything is possible.
Those CZ and HAITI stampings seem pretty ugly under magnification. There's a significant uneven-ness to them (Especially "HAITI"; not to mention the double-stamped 7) that I don't think you'd see on an actual CZ rifle, or any factory work I've seen?
I hate to say this, but; could this be one of the SPECTRE guns for Doctor No on Crab Key? (I know Dr, No was in Jamaica, not Haiti, and most of the weapons shown for his troops/guards were S&W subguns, but I was a teenager at the time I first watched the movie solely for Ursula Andress and the bikini.)
Based on how crooked and inconsistency sized the letters are, I would guess this is a counterfeit CZ 29-53. Somebody probably took a cheap Mauser 98 pattern rifle and stamped some random symbols on it. Then they sold it at a gun show claiming it's a, "Rare Haitian CZ 29-53," to some schmuck who didn't know any better.
The CIA was active in Haiti during this time, but you didn't hear it from me! Seriously, there were lots of clandestine markings and guns of all types circulating through many parts of the world including the Caribbean during the Cold War. That's my story and I'm sticking with it!
My account was hacked and I disavow any knowledge of any comment that may or may not have been made in my alias, err I mean name, nom de guerre, nom de plume, etc etc.
The thing that jumped out to me was that the "Haiti 57" marking looked like it was done with a set of Harbor Freight stamps, right down to the double strike on the 7. I can't buy the idea that it was a rifle for testing, surely the manufacturer wouldn't have marked it that crudely.
@@garrettlogue4249 back then they would’ve been roll marked. The crest looks like a good roll mark as does the No 10 on the receiver and bolt. The side wall marking does look hand done though.
i think this rifle came from the Dominican Republic it has the country marking and date marking in the same location as this one. plus it is using the same style of stock as the Dominicans were producing at this time. i think the odd circles in the crest are Hibiscus the national flower of Haiti.
Wasn't Haiti fighting within its self in 1957? Between the republic and the Duvalier dynasty? so you might want to check who made arms for both sides of that conflict.
No, there was some skirmishes among the military in 56 between Magloire's and Duvalier's presidencies, but not a lot of fighting with well defined sides... In 57, Duvalier might well have been searching for fresh equipment though and receiving samples.
That gun is awfully clean for being nearly as old as I am (67). Even the strap looks unused- it has one spot where the buckle used to sit but none indicating the gun was ever worn over the shoulder or on the back, and the stock looks nearly new too. I think the strap was taken from another gun that was a display-only gun or got damaged. Were there any stamped or other markings on the strap? The top of the "7" in "HAITI 1957" is either a double strike or it was made with a damaged punch- the numbers and letters in that and the "CZ 29-53" marking don't quite line up- they both look to have been hand-stamped with different sets of stamps with different fonts. As others have mentioned the gun was blued *after* the markings were stamped. That's just... wrong. That double triangle marking definitely looks like a simplified Voudou veve. That *does not* prove the gun has anything to do with Haiti because it's not one of the major ones- it could be a made-up one to make the rifle more "authentic". It's not one well-known to be associated with the Tonton Macout. OTOH notice the crenellated circle on the bolt handle that's the same as those in the putative veve- that does lend credence to the Haiti connection because touching a veve or part of it reinforces one's devotion and helps ensure success, and you'd do that every time you chambered a new round. The mark you called an X next to the barrel band looks more like crossed bones. I wish you had been able to take it apart to look for other markings on the lower part of the barrel frinst. You didn't say if the owner at the time of the video had any information on its origin or history, from which I infer they had none. Damn shame, but nice mystery.
It has all the earmarks of a “sample” rifle for a proposed sale to a rebel army. Haiti was under some internal turmoil in 1957 with “Papa Doc” Duvalier assuming power in 1957. East-West loyalties were literally for sale to the highest bidder. CZ was under Soviet control so perhaps this was a sample of the “arms to be supplied if you join our side”. The CZ markings and “Haiti 1957” look to be marked after the rifle was final assembled. The “ crest” may be just in there to represent “something” but not be a specific crest. It is in too good of a shape to have been used. The Soviets wanted a country to colonize in the Carribean, I don’t think it mattered to them if it was Haiti or Cuba or ? Yeah
3 stars means Bad pitting in rifling, the middle mark means not serviceable. It's a czechoslovak mauser that is no longer suitable for military service
Well it can mean that the rifle was sent to haiti as a presentation piece. Not suitable for military service did mean it is good for civilian market at that time.
If this is the case, why would they repeat that marking on the stock? looks to be a pretty nice stock that could have been used on a different rifle instead of being permanently marked as belonging to a gun with a bad bore.
As a rifle. It is a weird one. Today, I would call it an E-bay Mauser, because it is cobbeled together by various different bits and pieces. Only part that is actually marked, is the rear sightblade, it is Argentine 1909.pattern (you can still see slight hint on Anchor marking). But rest of the rifle is not Argentine. Now possible historic explainasion.. It has Polish action. Early Long rifle stock, that also appears do have remains of Polish marking (X mark at the butt frist). Upper handguard actually looks like Argentine upper handguard (like the sightblade) Sling attachments are Yugo/FN style. So most likely, it is Yugoslavia Zastava refurbished of Polish KR WZ.98. What is, for some reason gotten upper-handguard and sightblade replacement. Now, is a it fake. Yes it can be. But Polish early wz.98 are not exactly cheap platforms, do base a fake on. Specially unknown and unheard Haitian fake. Now psudo-Historic take on the marking. Odds are, that who ever purchaced Zastava surplus, was american. That means Imperial units of measurement. So CZ29-53 could easily mean an import mark „Crvena Zastava - 29" barrel - Refurbished 1953.“ Calibre of the rifle is not really an issue. Because at the time Haiti was runned by a proper Lunatic. Who horded all sorts of firearms, in a fear of invasion by neighbour (what was runned by another, yet more effective and sound, lunatic). He actually bought several M3-Stuart tanks from one (unknown) armsdealer in Mediterranean area (who actually refurbished his goods), so Yugo is near and fits timeframe. In 1994 US intervention, alot of different weapons were captured. In most known calibres, including .303 SMLEs. At the same time it might be thoroughly faked. In this case, it is a Turkish Brno VZ.22 (they are cheap) with Argentine sightblade mounted do mask Turkish numbering on the sight. And sling attachment mounted in Yugo/FN/VZ.24 pattern and bolt stop from Polish WZ.29. It will reamain a „Mystery“, because due do hectic history of Central-America, nobody really know, where those millions of weapons, that keep flooding their markets are really from.
I don't know much about guns but I do have a degree in international relations. So Czechoslovakia in the 50's was very much behind the iron curtain and Haiti was very much still a Francophile country. In 1957 Haiti got a new president/dictator who had french influence, so the idea of Hait buying goods from the other side of the iron curtain, and the czechs being allowed to trade with the other side to me sounds suspect. Also by 1957 this is very much an obsolescent weapon, Haiti was close to the US and a founding member of the UN i'd expect them to have easier access to M1 Garands from US, MAS 36 from France or even state of the art FN FAL. So an old Mauser from a country their not allied with doesn't make any sense. I could be very wrong, but who knows??
If it is a paramilitary, police or other non-army buyer, it would make more sense to use this kind of rifle. Especially if the group that bought this were not exactly the sorts to keep books.
If Ian is stumped, we’ll probably never know. Ian is the Obi-Wan Kenobi for mystery guns: he’s our only hope. Seriously though, I am thoroughly intrigued by this mutt of a Mauser. Love “mystery gun” videos. Thanks for doing a video on it!
This thing looks like a vz.98-29 repeater rifle made in Brno , they made about 80000 for Persia in the 1930s. I do not recognize the markings,but the caliber and pattern look legit.
Smells like a gun to be delivered to communist guerrillas in the Caribbean to me, could be on Haiti or more likely Cuba, with Haiti stamped on it they could say it was a gun from Haiti vs a gun from the Czechs. This is just a guess, but post wwii the Czechs we’re running guns to a lot of people like this, the cz52 and vz58 were very common in places like Vietnam and other hot beds of communist guerrilla activity. Most of the time when you find odd cz made guns from the post war period the answer is illegal sales to commies.
Well, certainly CZ mausers had this set of sling swivels. They were distinctly on every CZ mauser. And there's also the marking on the right side of the gun which indicates that the gun had been made in Czechoslovakia (I suppose) before it was sent or sold somewhere. The crest is very much unknown to me even though I was looking realy hard in a book and on the internet.
I'd hate to be cynical but it could just be a fake. Someone had a gun or bought a gun for cheap then stamped some stuff on it with punches they had access to in order to inflate its value. Most knockoff guns have meaningless markings on them. Of course I could be wrong, grains of salt all around.
This is what it is. The refinished condition and low serial number are big red flags. You can clearly see that it was heavily pitted rifle that was sanded down, reblued and remarked. And those marking sure the hell wasn't done by a factory.
Preston, you're thinking how the faker wants you to think. All the stampings in the metal are nice and crisp, yet you can see sanded down pitting all over.
The quality of this whole rifle seems way too good for some dudes in a backyard shop, and even it was made professionally by some smaller importer in a proper factory.
I also question just how desirable such a rifle would really be on the collector market. Not to many people are interested in haiti, and cz's aren't exactly uncommon. Would this thing have brought any kind of premium?
To me, the metal finish cleanly indicates it is a czech rifle. Of course someone else could make a rifle with that same reddish metal finish (on the bolt), but CZ is first to come to mind for that.
So, leading theories are a trials gun from CZ (why, if Haiti bought FN Mausers, wouldn't they buy FALs?}, a US-provided gun for the Haitian secret police, falsly marked as a CZ for deniability (in which case I presume the 10 markings are rack numbers) OR the Haiti 1957 might be the fluke, and it may have been one of a batch, presumably starting in 1953 and strung out over a few years to hide the costs, that either the USA or USSR was planning to ship to Cuba. Perhaps this one's shipment was diverted, or was surplus, and was sent elsewhere. Anyone ELSE have a good conspiracy theory? No MK-Ultra plz.
Just from condition alone I think it's a "bitza" put together and as mentioned in other comments, stamped up to make it more appealing to less informed buyers. It was probably put together pre-internet as information about rarer versions was harder to get. It has probably spent 40 years or more on someone's wall and never used.
A clue, and another guess.The recoil lug and lack of ID disk points to a replacement stock. The exact same lug (in the white with a small centering X) is found on Dominican Republic Brazilian DWM 1908 reworks. From WD Balls book “Mauser Rifle’s of the World”, p.67 “During the early 1950’s, the national arsenal reconditioned surplus Brazilian Model 1908 Rifles and Short Rifles, removing all Brazilian markings and restamping the weapons with Dominican markings.” They’re on the same island, the pattern of rifle fits. The markings, while not the same have congruent placement. Even the font and stamping style is similar (reference lower right picture on p.67). As neighbors, they would have had a vested interest in the goings on in Haiti, and it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility that this weapon was one of a small batch of test rifles from the Dominican arsenal to the then government of Haiti or another sympathetic private entity (militia) possibly as “dealer samples”. Chambered in 8mm as to not be as useful in a conflict between the two countries should one arise (also lots of surplus ammo on the market so as not to disrupt the logistics of their own army).
The one thing that bugs me about your guess is the CZ marking on the receiver. Your other points are highly probable and sensible in the context of the time.
@@timothytietz9194 I'm looking at it on my monitor and can't quite make it out either. It does look a little like the funky circles on the paired-triangle marking. I'm slightly annoyed that Ian didn't mention it- maybe it's either so obvious or so weird that he didn't want to.
@@cracklingvoice Those look to me to he hand-stamped later than the other markings- and not well at that. The top of the "7" looks to almost be a double strike, or from a damaged punch set. It'd be interesting to trace that damaged number to other guns with known histories.
Receiver marking do not correspond to Brazilian contract Mausers bougth by Dominican Republic. I am sure, as I refurbished several units in the DR in 2008.
Secret Deal--origin can't be determined (even today) and all these markings served their purpose. probabaly connected to post-war americans or eastern bloc-backed socialist rebel (with the later needing less accessible knowledge and understanding of the english language--something which was much less available, yet still very possible). MY BELIEF is slug it and find out where the ammo was most prevelant and from their find the backers. Using the word HAITI is a good deception ; the lack of a french prefix and the word itself alludes to american involvement no matter where the gun is used. all around ghost gun with regard to markings
Late comment but the rabbit hole i would follow is the eight pointed star and start with the french foreign in Morocco and later being reissued in Haiti as some trade deals opened up in the mid/late 50's. I'd love hear what you guys think. Thanks
I think it’s a VZ 24, I have the exact same rifle with the Bolivian crest chambered in 7,65 x 54, veteran of the Chaco war in the mid ‘30s. Maybe this one was sent to Haiti for trial…
I once owned a not unsimilar carbine Mauser. Yet scrubbed of all markings yet serial #68 on side of receiver and the turned down bolt. A short 17ish barrel. Identical bluing finish even the stock finish looks very close.
What if this was a CZ rifle which ended up in Haitian hands due to the fog of war and the movement of migrants post war? It maybe arrived or was acquired in 1957 and the new owner marked his or hers with the country and year. The French sling could be a post war addition fueled by necessity and availability.
It looks exactly like the long version of the Austrian manufactured-Chilean mausers. I have a carbine version and the sights, barrel bands, sling attachment, long Mauser camber, straight bolt, style of stock- just about everything screams to me that this could be a Chilean test rifle. Again, I have a Austrian made Chilean Mauser (carbine version) and I am willing to show it to you if you want to
Well Ian if you were allowed to disassemble the bolt you would find a circle with a z in the middle of the circle this would be stamped on the underside of the firing pin striker, on the firing pin and the safety wing if in fact it was a CZ manufacturered bolt at least, the tiny cross on the recoil cross bolt says South America at least for the stock, back to the bolt the firing pin striker is too long for he period I would say that the bolt is from an actual Oberndorf Mauser pre WWI and the whole da.n gun is a parts gun rebuilt by some county to meet their needs from NOS spare parts on hand.
Two thoughts......... First, the lack of factory markings on the receiver side might only be the result of the rifle having its original markings scrubbed off during a re-arsenal session. Second, are there any proof marks on it, like on the underside of the bolt handle or on the barrel in the vicinity of the rear sight (requiring removal of the hand guard to see)? The well known z inside a larger C would make original Cz manufacture even more likely.
I actually found a picture of some soldiers with stahlhelms and mauser rifles, named as "the stahlhelm in latin america after wwii", so, this rifle is likely to have been owned by the haitian army somewhere after wwii You can find it by browsing "haitian army emblem" in google. This is not an evidence, but can help us following the trail of this rifle.
The receiver crest really does appear to be some sort of veve symbol from haitian vodou. Not sure why it's in 8mm but I do suspect the rifle is related to the Duvalier regime change
Perhaps someone heard the Hatians had access to Mausers, and knew CZ produced them, so they reproduced a likeness of various markings, without copying them exactly. Back in a time when these wouldn't be accessible, so as to dupe a potential buyer?
i seem to recall..yrs ago a article that said the communists made up rifles to export to cuba and fidel.. would make sense in the time line and that cz would have access to lots of surplus parts from the war plus ammo was avail..and since soviet block wanted to keep things clouded as to who was doing what..no 7.62 nagats..send old german pattern 8mm...sorry i cannot find the article or i would attach
Considering how HEAVILY (and POORLY) refinished the rifle is, my guess is it is a quasi-military style bespoke rifle made for someone from bits. REALLY bad reblue over pitting and grinding (yeouch!). Kinda like the humpty-doo rifles Century and some others made up - even Navy Arms.
In my youth and 20's + I had more than a passing acquaintance with the occult and these do look like simplified veve to me I should look up the veve for Baron Cemeterie the patron of the Ton Ton to see if it looks similar..
I have seen this symbol somewhere, but I just don´t know where! Tried Google for anything with three 8-pointed stars, an hourglass or two opposing triangles - nothing!
i personally think it popped out of a dimensional rift to a hellish alternate version of earth, yall can come up with the specifics of what could be different about it
well François Duvalier was elected president in Haiti in 57, perhaps their was some desire to use Czech made arms to over throw him, (made in Czechoslovakia , earmarked for use in Haiti). it would make sense if one considers François Duvalier's relationship with batista and castro in cuba Duvalier's anti communist stance. But I suppose thats an unsubstantiated idea.
A TRUE forgotten weapon.
😅😅😅😅
Dude you should do a series called mystery gun Monday were people sending pictures of mystery guns and you try to identify them and then tell us their history
Most of them will be Arisakas.
Mattias Petrmichl It's always an Arisaka.
Ian please do this
That would be fun. Give us something to ponder on for the rest of the week.
That's a very cool idea.
after years of working for the news media i can tell you it's an AK-47
No no, it´s Oooooozi.
no ooooozies are short and shiny, everyone knows if it's wooden it's an ak and if it's black it's an AR-15
Naw, that's a hunting rifle pardner
alternativehero it's an Uzi-ArK semiautomatic 30 caliber burst machine gun with bump stock and converted with an auto magazine clip
WRONG
It's clearly an AR 15
I'm david hog and i know what it is
There i was, in the 20th century
This is a completely unfounded theory, but it would make sense for a mid-late 1950s mystery rifle without clear manufacturer marks to be a weapon that was intended to go to Cuba. A rifle that was supposedly bound for Haiti would be easy to divert at the last minute to a neighboring island.
Actually a legit thing. Not sure about 8mm, though.
That makes sense. The eastern bloc was used by the USSR to prop up communist regimes overseas. It would make sense that small arms would be sent to countries like Cuba or Vietnam. Funny thing, Vietnamese rice was returned by the way of barter for weapons and repackaged in Czechoslovakia and then exported further into the world, making Czechoslovakia the biggest european rice producer, at least on paper.
but a gewehr 98? why such an outdated rifle when they could have easily snuck in more modern rifles?
There was still a huge stockpile of these weapons, they were reliable, not the best technology, but working, reliable. And CS didn't needed them.
they already had spring fields and m1s, any foreign arm would have been suspicious
Isn't 1957 just before Duvalier's dictatorship? It might be a potential contract that was lost due to a regime change.
Alexandru Ianu that's plausible.
It just doesn't explain the odd CZ marking on the side of it. :-/
underscores cz is the company that made this Rifle
Papa Doc took power in September 1957.
A gun that Gun Jesus doesn't know about? *IMPOSSIBLE*
PanzerKatze oh he knows about the gun, just not the who where and why
Until a better answer comes along I'm going to assume it was made for some abortive CIA attempt to overthrow Tito.
I have no evidence for this hypothesis.
GJ203. Why do you need evidences? It is perfectly reasonable therefore true
That is simply because the gun doesn’t know what it is.
He tests us! Have faith in Him!
CIA plausible deniability purchase?
itsconnorstime I thought British WelMauser as we don't Declassified things like that.
Andy Headland Yeah, by now something from the 50s in the US would be declassified.
Maybe a demo rifle for their military testing? Strange. It Is always interesting to see unique weapons
Rodney Payne yeah maybe it's a trials rifle
Maybe... But, why they would need another Mauser in 57 when they had this one in 24? Very mysterious gun...
Forgotten*
Devin Moorhead Sometimes forgotten, sometimes unique weapons from countries that alot of people don't know about but are well known in their own country. Not a criticism. Take Ian's video on the Owen for example,im an Aussie and knew it but others didn't, like I said interesting
Yes he's done trial rifles before, which this seems to be, but with a back story difficult to confirm.
It's a demonstration rifle by cz I own a mauser in 7mm made in Germany(all the prof marks are intact) with brizian crest on the front ring also the wood stock on my rifle is extra fine.like that rifle uselly a dead give away about that kinda thing.
cudaw73 Ian said its bored at 8mm mauser not 7mm mauser. Unless thats what you ment
Alex Sanders you’d think they would demonstrate different calibers as well
that a neat idea, I just to like your definitive statment
If you figure this out, would love to see a follow up video.
Normally the mystery guns are crude Chinese or Khyber Pass mishmashes. This one is really nice!
(somewhere at Khyber Pass) "Hey, Khaity, you remeber that rifle you sold to that American guy? Yes, the one with a typo? It's on TH-cam!"
A gunsmith somewhere laughs his rear off when he sees his practice gun decades ago popped up in forgotten weapons
I am going to take a wild swing that this is a Yugoslavian sample gun. They had both piles of ancient surplus Mausers, as well as an active production line for them. The armourers at the factory took some blank/refurbished parts from the bin, engraved markings on them that signified only the general locations and sizes of markings that the customer might want on the gun and handed it over to the salesman. Hence, sample gun #10, Haiti 1957. Order never came, but a strange curiosity remained and found its way to the US.
It's from an alternate dimension.
So it's actually an automatic?
Another Mandela effect example... the CERN must be getting the dimensions too close together again.
So it's from the bearinstain universe?
Pre-Hadron Weasel?
No doubt conjured up by some Haitian Voodoo spell.
its a gun for sure
Yup.
Absolutely
I obviously have no information on this rifle, but an attempt to hide the origin of the gun seems like the most likely explanation.
One step beyond scrubbing, makes sense.
The poor quality and non-standard of the Haiti marking compared to the other markings on this gun and the marking on the fn guns, the odd chambering, and non history of the gun could be explained by an attempted forgery.
This is just my possible theory, but if it is a legitimate rifle and not a counterfeit, it could be it used to be a Polish Wz 29 (hence the 10’s for the factory in Poland), rearsenaled by CZ in Czechoslovakia in 1953 (CZ 29-53) for export service to Haiti as a police or security weapon, since I remember it was common practice even today in smaller countries for police and the military to use different weapons so they can’t use the same ammunition or parts as the other?
The stock length is wrong. The handguard is wrong. The barrel length is wrong. Its very unlikely. Although i do have a polish K98 in a wz29 stock so i guess anything is possible.
Those CZ and HAITI stampings seem pretty ugly under magnification. There's a significant uneven-ness to them (Especially "HAITI"; not to mention the double-stamped 7) that I don't think you'd see on an actual CZ rifle, or any factory work I've seen?
Could it be a private purchase for private concern like factory guards or plantation guards?
William Prince that's plausible.
Haiti at that time may have had a law prohibiting private ownership of a rifle in their military caliber.
I hate to say this, but; could this be one of the SPECTRE guns for Doctor No on Crab Key?
(I know Dr, No was in Jamaica, not Haiti, and most of the weapons shown for his troops/guards were S&W subguns, but I was a teenager at the time I first watched the movie solely for Ursula Andress and the bikini.)
iatsd Paramilitary? Haiti? Ton ton macute?
Ian mentioned that their official caliber was 30-06, could the 8mm be a loophole?
Its like when you go to a gun store and the tag says "Mauser? 7mm? Rifle? $700."
Private sellers: "Don't lowball me, I know what I've got."
Space Reptile us
Based on how crooked and inconsistency sized the letters are, I would guess this is a counterfeit CZ 29-53. Somebody probably took a cheap Mauser 98 pattern rifle and stamped some random symbols on it. Then they sold it at a gun show claiming it's a, "Rare Haitian CZ 29-53," to some schmuck who didn't know any better.
David Henning but then why the strangely low serial number?
Nathan Imes You have a good point there. I can't think of a good explanation for that.
Nathan Imes To inflate the value further and say it’s a first production, rare piece.
There is no such thing as a "cheap" Mauser these days.
It definitely resembles a scrubbed VZ24 with stampings.
That bayonet lug appears to be right off a Chilean 1912
The CIA was active in Haiti during this time, but you didn't hear it from me! Seriously, there were lots of clandestine markings and guns of all types circulating through many parts of the world including the Caribbean during the Cold War.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it!
we are watching you,Jay.M.
Tony, don't you mean, ve are vatching you Jaychek
My account was hacked and I disavow any knowledge of any comment that may or may not have been made in my alias, err I mean name, nom de guerre, nom de plume, etc etc.
The thing that jumped out to me was that the "Haiti 57" marking looked like it was done with a set of Harbor Freight stamps, right down to the double strike on the 7. I can't buy the idea that it was a rifle for testing, surely the manufacturer wouldn't have marked it that crudely.
Both sides are crooked. Hand stamped.
I'm pretty sure that's just how they marked rifles back then.
@@garrettlogue4249 back then they would’ve been roll marked. The crest looks like a good roll mark as does the No 10 on the receiver and bolt. The side wall marking does look hand done though.
i think this rifle came from the Dominican Republic it has the country marking and date marking in the same location as this one. plus it is using the same style of stock as the Dominicans were producing at this time. i think the odd circles in the crest are Hibiscus the national flower of Haiti.
Which one is the DR country mark? The hourglass shape?
OEFBugout the date and county are marked in the same location and style as the Mausers that came out of the Dominican Republic.
Wasn't Haiti fighting within its self in 1957? Between the republic and the Duvalier dynasty? so you might want to check who made arms for both sides of that conflict.
No, there was some skirmishes among the military in 56 between Magloire's and Duvalier's presidencies, but not a lot of fighting with well defined sides... In 57, Duvalier might well have been searching for fresh equipment though and receiving samples.
Vincent Chalmel I don't think a new government would be looking at bolt actions in 57, but might be wrong.
The strange crest? That is clearly an hourglass. This rifle must have belonged to a globetrotting time traveler!
That gun is awfully clean for being nearly as old as I am (67). Even the strap looks unused- it has one spot where the buckle used to sit but none indicating the gun was ever worn over the shoulder or on the back, and the stock looks nearly new too. I think the strap was taken from another gun that was a display-only gun or got damaged. Were there any stamped or other markings on the strap?
The top of the "7" in "HAITI 1957" is either a double strike or it was made with a damaged punch- the numbers and letters in that and the "CZ 29-53" marking don't quite line up- they both look to have been hand-stamped with different sets of stamps with different fonts. As others have mentioned the gun was blued *after* the markings were stamped. That's just... wrong.
That double triangle marking definitely looks like a simplified Voudou veve. That *does not* prove the gun has anything to do with Haiti because it's not one of the major ones- it could be a made-up one to make the rifle more "authentic". It's not one well-known to be associated with the Tonton Macout. OTOH notice the crenellated circle on the bolt handle that's the same as those in the putative veve- that does lend credence to the Haiti connection because touching a veve or part of it reinforces one's devotion and helps ensure success, and you'd do that every time you chambered a new round. The mark you called an X next to the barrel band looks more like crossed bones.
I wish you had been able to take it apart to look for other markings on the lower part of the barrel frinst.
You didn't say if the owner at the time of the video had any information on its origin or history, from which I infer they had none.
Damn shame, but nice mystery.
It has all the earmarks of a “sample” rifle for a proposed sale to a rebel army. Haiti was under some internal turmoil in 1957 with “Papa Doc” Duvalier assuming power in 1957. East-West loyalties were literally for sale to the highest bidder. CZ was under Soviet control so perhaps this was a sample of the “arms to be supplied if you join our side”. The CZ markings and “Haiti 1957” look to be marked after the rifle was final assembled. The “ crest” may be just in there to represent “something” but not be a specific crest. It is in too good of a shape to have been used. The Soviets wanted a country to colonize in the Carribean, I don’t think it mattered to them if it was Haiti or Cuba or ? Yeah
Makes sense
Certainly an interesting theory.
Papa Doc. He was a piece of work.
Since the Czech M98/29 rifles were only sold to Iran (a few to Colombia, as well), the distraction here is intentional.
well, it looks like some planet's stargate home symbol. it's extraterrestial in origin, you should ask the guys in cheyenne mountain about it, maybe.
3 stars means Bad pitting in rifling, the middle mark means not serviceable. It's a czechoslovak mauser that is no longer suitable for military service
So what about the haiti marking?
No longer suitable for military service = still good for Haiti ? :-D
Well it can mean that the rifle was sent to haiti as a presentation piece. Not suitable for military service did mean it is good for civilian market at that time.
Do you have a source that Ian can view?
If this is the case, why would they repeat that marking on the stock? looks to be a pretty nice stock that could have been used on a different rifle instead of being permanently marked as belonging to a gun with a bad bore.
I happen to have inside information that it was made by a consortium of youtube commenters specifically to mess with you.
As a rifle. It is a weird one. Today, I would call it an E-bay Mauser, because it is cobbeled together by various different bits and pieces.
Only part that is actually marked, is the rear sightblade, it is Argentine 1909.pattern (you can still see slight hint on Anchor marking). But rest of the rifle is not Argentine.
Now possible historic explainasion..
It has Polish action. Early Long rifle stock, that also appears do have remains of Polish marking (X mark at the butt frist). Upper handguard actually looks like Argentine upper handguard (like the sightblade) Sling attachments are Yugo/FN style.
So most likely, it is Yugoslavia Zastava refurbished of Polish KR WZ.98. What is, for some reason gotten upper-handguard and sightblade replacement.
Now, is a it fake. Yes it can be. But Polish early wz.98 are not exactly cheap platforms, do base a fake on. Specially unknown and unheard Haitian fake.
Now psudo-Historic take on the marking. Odds are, that who ever purchaced Zastava surplus, was american. That means Imperial units of measurement. So CZ29-53 could easily mean an import mark „Crvena Zastava - 29" barrel - Refurbished 1953.“
Calibre of the rifle is not really an issue. Because at the time Haiti was runned by a proper Lunatic. Who horded all sorts of firearms, in a fear of invasion by neighbour (what was runned by another, yet more effective and sound, lunatic). He actually bought several M3-Stuart tanks from one (unknown) armsdealer in Mediterranean area (who actually refurbished his goods), so Yugo is near and fits timeframe.
In 1994 US intervention, alot of different weapons were captured. In most known calibres, including .303 SMLEs.
At the same time it might be thoroughly faked.
In this case, it is a Turkish Brno VZ.22 (they are cheap) with Argentine sightblade mounted do mask Turkish numbering on the sight. And sling attachment mounted in Yugo/FN/VZ.24 pattern and bolt stop from Polish WZ.29.
It will reamain a „Mystery“, because due do hectic history of Central-America, nobody really know, where those millions of weapons, that keep flooding their markets are really from.
I don't know much about guns but I do have a degree in international relations. So Czechoslovakia in the 50's was very much behind the iron curtain and Haiti was very much still a Francophile country. In 1957 Haiti got a new president/dictator who had french influence, so the idea of Hait buying goods from the other side of the iron curtain, and the czechs being allowed to trade with the other side to me sounds suspect. Also by 1957 this is very much an obsolescent weapon, Haiti was close to the US and a founding member of the UN i'd expect them to have easier access to M1 Garands from US, MAS 36 from France or even state of the art FN FAL. So an old Mauser from a country their not allied with doesn't make any sense.
I could be very wrong, but who knows??
If it is a paramilitary, police or other non-army buyer, it would make more sense to use this kind of rifle. Especially if the group that bought this were not exactly the sorts to keep books.
If Ian is stumped, we’ll probably never know. Ian is the Obi-Wan Kenobi for mystery guns: he’s our only hope.
Seriously though, I am thoroughly intrigued by this mutt of a Mauser. Love “mystery gun” videos.
Thanks for doing a video on it!
Aliens, area 51 wants their rifle back
No, you are wrong. They are using MG42. Have you never watched Starwars?
So, your saying they can't hit anything either with this? Dang it storm troopers!
What about the Lewis Guns that the Stormtroopers used?
This thing looks like a vz.98-29 repeater rifle made in Brno , they made about 80000 for Persia in the 1930s. I do not recognize the markings,but the caliber and pattern look legit.
Smells like a gun to be delivered to communist guerrillas in the Caribbean to me, could be on Haiti or more likely Cuba, with Haiti stamped on it they could say it was a gun from Haiti vs a gun from the Czechs. This is just a guess, but post wwii the Czechs we’re running guns to a lot of people like this, the cz52 and vz58 were very common in places like Vietnam and other hot beds of communist guerrilla activity. Most of the time when you find odd cz made guns from the post war period the answer is illegal sales to commies.
Might be one of them Mitchell’s mausers :)
That’s clearly an AR-1976 with a 500 capacity clippazine, that fires 2 million bullets in half a second. Clearly a ghost gun...
Wasn´t Duvalier throw his weight around, and threatened to get weapons from Eastern Bloc? Maybe they procured some Czech weapons anyway?
Well, certainly CZ mausers had this set of sling swivels. They were distinctly on every CZ mauser. And there's also the marking on the right side of the gun which indicates that the gun had been made in Czechoslovakia (I suppose) before it was sent or sold somewhere. The crest is very much unknown to me even though I was looking realy hard in a book and on the internet.
Just a thought, could CZ stand for Crenva Zastava. Zastava was involved in building Mauser rifles for a time.
I'd hate to be cynical but it could just be a fake.
Someone had a gun or bought a gun for cheap then stamped some stuff on it with punches they had access to in order to inflate its value. Most knockoff guns have meaningless markings on them. Of course I could be wrong, grains of salt all around.
This is what it is. The refinished condition and low serial number are big red flags. You can clearly see that it was heavily pitted rifle that was sanded down, reblued and remarked. And those marking sure the hell wasn't done by a factory.
Preston, you're thinking how the faker wants you to think. All the stampings in the metal are nice and crisp, yet you can see sanded down pitting all over.
But that doesn't explain the lack of markings on the receiver, what should be done in the factory.
The quality of this whole rifle seems way too good for some dudes in a backyard shop, and even it was made professionally by some smaller importer in a proper factory.
I also question just how desirable such a rifle would really be on the collector market. Not to many people are interested in haiti, and cz's aren't exactly uncommon. Would this thing have brought any kind of premium?
To me, the metal finish cleanly indicates it is a czech rifle. Of course someone else could make a rifle with that same reddish metal finish (on the bolt), but CZ is first to come to mind for that.
So, leading theories are a trials gun from CZ (why, if Haiti bought FN Mausers, wouldn't they buy FALs?}, a US-provided gun for the Haitian secret police, falsly marked as a CZ for deniability (in which case I presume the 10 markings are rack numbers) OR the Haiti 1957 might be the fluke, and it may have been one of a batch, presumably starting in 1953 and strung out over a few years to hide the costs, that either the USA or USSR was planning to ship to Cuba. Perhaps this one's shipment was diverted, or was surplus, and was sent elsewhere. Anyone ELSE have a good conspiracy theory? No MK-Ultra plz.
Just from condition alone I think it's a "bitza" put together and as mentioned in other comments, stamped up to make it more appealing to less informed buyers. It was probably put together pre-internet as information about rarer versions was harder to get. It has probably spent 40 years or more on someone's wall and never used.
Wasn't there a Haitian Civil War going on in the fifties? Couldn't these rifles been sent to the Rebel faction or Communist faction?
A clue, and another guess.The recoil lug and lack of ID disk points to a replacement stock. The exact same lug (in the white with a small centering X) is found on Dominican Republic Brazilian DWM 1908 reworks. From WD Balls book “Mauser Rifle’s of the World”, p.67
“During the early 1950’s, the national arsenal reconditioned surplus Brazilian Model 1908 Rifles and Short Rifles, removing all Brazilian markings and restamping the weapons with Dominican markings.”
They’re on the same island, the pattern of rifle fits. The markings, while not the same have congruent placement. Even the font and stamping style is similar (reference lower right picture on p.67). As neighbors, they would have had a vested interest in the goings on in Haiti, and it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility that this weapon was one of a small batch of test rifles from the Dominican arsenal to the then government of Haiti or another sympathetic private entity (militia) possibly as “dealer samples”. Chambered in 8mm as to not be as useful in a conflict between the two countries should one arise (also lots of surplus ammo on the market so as not to disrupt the logistics of their own army).
The one thing that bugs me about your guess is the CZ marking on the receiver. Your other points are highly probable and sensible in the context of the time.
What is the mark on the bolt handle by the ball? Cant see on phone
@@timothytietz9194 I'm looking at it on my monitor and can't quite make it out either. It does look a little like the funky circles on the paired-triangle marking. I'm slightly annoyed that Ian didn't mention it- maybe it's either so obvious or so weird that he didn't want to.
@@cracklingvoice Those look to me to he hand-stamped later than the other markings- and not well at that. The top of the "7" looks to almost be a double strike, or from a damaged punch set.
It'd be interesting to trace that damaged number to other guns with known histories.
Can it be cz meaning crvena zastava, from Kragujevac former Jugoslavia
Most likely Cz from czechoslovakia/currently the czech Republic, currently one of the biggest commercial gun producers around
....Perhaps Bought by Somebody Trying to Pull a Coup ????.....
Receiver marking do not correspond to Brazilian contract Mausers bougth by Dominican Republic. I am sure, as I refurbished several units in the DR in 2008.
@forgottenweapons i have a VZ 24, that looks very similar. just saying
Secret Deal--origin can't be determined (even today) and all these markings served their purpose. probabaly connected to post-war americans or eastern bloc-backed socialist rebel (with the later needing less accessible knowledge and understanding of the english language--something which was much less available, yet still very possible). MY BELIEF is slug it and find out where the ammo was most prevelant and from their find the backers. Using the word HAITI is a good deception ; the lack of a french prefix and the word itself alludes to american involvement no matter where the gun is used. all around ghost gun with regard to markings
Late comment but the rabbit hole i would follow is the eight pointed star and start with the french foreign in Morocco and later being reissued in Haiti as some trade deals opened up in the mid/late 50's. I'd love hear what you guys think. Thanks
I think it’s a VZ 24, I have the exact same rifle with the Bolivian crest chambered in 7,65 x 54, veteran of the Chaco war in the mid ‘30s. Maybe this one was sent to Haiti for trial…
The cartouche is extremely interesting. Three 8-sided stars, situated around an hourglass with 8 lines. Someone clearly liked the number 8.
Chinese love the number 8.
I once owned a not unsimilar carbine Mauser. Yet scrubbed of all markings yet serial #68 on side of receiver and the turned down bolt. A short 17ish barrel.
Identical bluing finish even the stock finish looks very close.
I mean it looks exactly like a VZ 24, I’m not sure about the odd markings but that gun looks just like a Czech VZ 24.
What if this was a CZ rifle which ended up in Haitian hands due to the fog of war and the movement of migrants post war? It maybe arrived or was acquired in 1957 and the new owner marked his or hers with the country and year. The French sling could be a post war addition fueled by necessity and availability.
Are you discounting a drunken or hung over assembly worker stamping like he don’t care? ? Probably a “Monday “ gun!
It looks exactly like the long version of the Austrian manufactured-Chilean mausers. I have a carbine version and the sights, barrel bands, sling attachment, long Mauser camber, straight bolt, style of stock- just about everything screams to me that this could be a Chilean test rifle. Again, I have a Austrian made Chilean Mauser (carbine version) and I am willing to show it to you if you want to
Well Ian if you were allowed to disassemble the bolt you would find a circle with a z in the middle of the circle this would be stamped on the underside of the firing pin striker, on the firing pin and the safety wing if in fact it was a CZ manufacturered bolt at least, the tiny cross on the recoil cross bolt says South America at least for the stock, back to the bolt the firing pin striker is too long for he period I would say that the bolt is from an actual Oberndorf Mauser pre WWI and the whole da.n gun is a parts gun rebuilt by some county to meet their needs from NOS spare parts on hand.
it must have been made by a large manufacturer with proper toolings. you can definitely tell by just looking at the finish
Two thoughts......... First, the lack of factory markings on the receiver side might only be the result of the rifle having its original markings scrubbed off during a re-arsenal session. Second, are there any proof marks on it, like on the underside of the bolt handle or on the barrel in the vicinity of the rear sight (requiring removal of the hand guard to see)? The well known z inside a larger C would make original Cz manufacture even more likely.
I actually found a picture of some soldiers with stahlhelms and mauser rifles, named as "the stahlhelm in latin america after wwii", so, this rifle is likely to have been owned by the haitian army somewhere after wwii
You can find it by browsing "haitian army emblem" in google.
This is not an evidence, but can help us following the trail of this rifle.
All aboard Mystery Panzer IV Maschine, its Mystery Mauser time !
The receiver crest really does appear to be some sort of veve symbol from haitian vodou. Not sure why it's in 8mm but I do suspect the rifle is related to the Duvalier regime change
Crvena zastava was making mausers with wood around sight
I doubt an explanation would be found in the comments. I bet the top 3 bidders in the auction know what it is.
Perhaps someone heard the Hatians had access to Mausers, and knew CZ produced them, so they reproduced a likeness of various markings, without copying them exactly. Back in a time when these wouldn't be accessible, so as to dupe a potential buyer?
is a North Korean secret weapon .... hence lack of proper markings.
Something that poped into my head for this rifle is it may be a police gun, or other such official Haitian group.
I've never seen a French sling (military issue) with that rolled line close to the sides. They are usually exempt of any imprint.
The dual sling thing and the X mark makes me think of an artillery Model instead of cavalry. Crew rifle hung across the back of the user.
i seem to recall..yrs ago a article that said the communists made up rifles to export to cuba and fidel.. would make sense in the time line and that cz would have access to lots of surplus parts from the war plus ammo was avail..and since soviet block wanted to keep things clouded as to who was doing what..no 7.62 nagats..send old german pattern 8mm...sorry i cannot find the article or i would attach
It could be a very skilled gunsmith derping around in his shop after hours.
That's a Nazi moonbase marking.
Is it possible it was a low purchase run for a local police force? I imagine it was a surplus rifle and pretty cheap for a police unit to procure.
Duvalier took power in 1957. Trujillo was in power in Dominica.
Maybe one day we'll find the cryptid of fire-arms. A mysterious and unique weapon with no explanation that would change everything if true.
It's in really nice condition so I'm also thinking it's some kind of sample gun.
The crest has a lot of similarities to Vodun symbology which would make sense for Haiti.
They are most likely Sun and Butterfly symbols. Both are not too uncommon in Central-America.
Someone made it with purposefully vague markings as a prank for future weapons historians.
Its a cz rifle made for haiti in 1957.
You're welcome.
Considering how HEAVILY (and POORLY) refinished the rifle is, my guess is it is a quasi-military style bespoke rifle made for someone from bits. REALLY bad reblue over pitting and grinding (yeouch!). Kinda like the humpty-doo rifles Century and some others made up - even Navy Arms.
For the Ton Ton macouit ?
Unlikely imo due to Duvalier's strong anti cuba/communist stance.
The Ton Ton Macoute was Duvalier's militia/terror squad. And a counter force to the Haitian Armee. Which could explain the other markings.
In my youth and 20's + I had more than a passing acquaintance with the occult and these do look like simplified veve to me I should look up the veve for Baron Cemeterie the patron of the Ton Ton to see if it looks similar..
i’m thinking it could’ve been important into haiti as a police pattern rifle or for the civilian market
Lots of folks are saying it could be a well done fake, but wouldn't the strangely low serial number rule that out?
Nathan Imes not if they were faking a "very rare trials rifle".
Maybe Papa Doc Duvalier ordered up some special Mausers for him and his crew. 😉
It's been 2 years, has anyone made any progress?
I have seen this symbol somewhere, but I just don´t know where!
Tried Google for anything with three 8-pointed stars, an hourglass or two opposing triangles - nothing!
The stock is in remarkable shape for a gun that's been around since the 50's.
i personally think it popped out of a dimensional rift to a hellish alternate version of earth, yall can come up with the specifics of what could be different about it
well François Duvalier was elected president in Haiti in 57, perhaps their was some desire to use Czech made arms to over throw him, (made in Czechoslovakia , earmarked for use in Haiti). it would make sense if one considers François Duvalier's relationship with batista and castro in cuba Duvalier's anti communist stance.
But I suppose thats an unsubstantiated idea.
This thing looks like it was made, packed then lost in a warehouse. That thing is gorgeous.
I think this rifle was a covert -- bound for Cuba not Haiti -- rifle.
Hey man you found my Mauser
Maybe it's crvena zastava CZ Yugoslavian m48