the slow death of historical epics
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- NOTE: Universal Studios blocked the original version of this video (uploaded Jan 3rd 2022), so this is a re-upload with some minor edits.
A research essay on the state of 'historical-epic' films in the current cinematic landscape. Are they dying off? Or is there hope for the genre yet?
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Timestamps:
0:00 The Historical Epic
1:54 The Definition
2:56 Are You Not Entertained?
5:31 Swords and Sandals
8:01 A Shifting Cinematic Landscape
9:25 Waking Hollywood
11:49 A Dead Genre?
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What do YOU think of historical epics? Do you miss the days of Gladiator, Troy, Kingdom of Heaven, and King Arthur? Have you liked the recent films such as Robin Hood, The Green Knight, The King, and Outlaw King?
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Come say hi on my social media feeds:
Instagram: / scene_it_re. . _______________________________________________________________________
Films Referenced:
The Ten Commandments (1956)
Doctor Zhivago (1965)
Gone with the Wind (1939)
1917 (2019)
Dunkirk (2017)
The Imitation Game (2014)
Braveheart (1995)
Gladiator (2000)
Troy (2004)
300 (2006)
Kingdom of Heaven (2005)
Robin Hood (2010)
King Arthur (2004)
Pirates of the Caribbean (2003)
Apocalypto (2006)
Wrath Of The Titans (2012)
Clash Of The Titans (2010)
The Sound of Music (1965)
Ben-Hur (1959)
Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ (1925)
King Arthur: Legend of the Sword (2017)
Gods of Egypt (2016)
Robin Hood (2018)
Selma (2014)
Judas and the Black Messiah (2021)
The Green Knight (2021)
The King (2019)
Outlaw King (2018)
The Last Duel (2021)
ATTRIBUTIONS:
This video contains copyrighted material from the feature films listed above. I believe all content used falls under the remits of Fair Use (see below), but if any content owners would like to dispute this I will not hesitate to remove said content. It is not my intent in any way to infringe on their content ownership.
Contact: sceneitmoviereviews@gmail.com
History
Historical films
Historical movies
Cinema
Box office flop
The Last Duel
Ridley Scott
The Northman
Cleopatra
Russell Crowe
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FAIR USE DISCLAIMER:
As the original material is transformative in nature, uses no more of the original than necessary, and has no negative effect on the market for the original work, the copyright material has been used in accordance with the Fair Use Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act (1976):
Copyright Disclaimer under section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for “fair use” for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, education and research.
FAIR DEALING DISCLAIMER:
This video constitutes "Fair Dealing" and does not violate Australian copyright law. As outlined by the Australian Copyright Act of 1968, Division 3 Section 41: "A fair dealing with a literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work, or with an adaptation of a literary, dramatic or musical work, does not constitute an infringement of the copyright in the work if it is for the purpose of criticism or review, whether of that work or of another work, and a sufficient acknowledgment of the work is made." The video is transformative in nature, uses no more of the original than necessary and has no negative effect on the market for the original work. - ภาพยนตร์และแอนิเมชัน
Hey Legends - this is a re-upload of a video I released earlier this year - Universal claimed that this is an upload of "the entire Gladiator movie" (not even kidding, that was their Content ID claim) so banned it in all countries. I disputed but TH-cam upheld their claim (classsicccccc), so had to re-edit and re-upload. Hopefully better luck with this one haha.
Cheers gang,
Jack
Perhaps I'm a bit pedantic, but I would have liked a bit more of a formal breakdown of what defines a historical epic and what the numbers look like under this definition. IMHO, there seems to be some incongruity as to what you consider a historical epic. You seem to both discount period films set in recent history from being historical epics, while at the same time including mythological films that would have been set in ancient history if they were not in fact fiction. Like for instance I think you seem to be including all "sword and sandal" films to be "historic epic". I think it's more like a venn diagram with some overlap but not all encompassing.
Anyway I'd love to see some better definition because you could probably draw a better conclusion about the appetite for history if you included more recent history. Lately there seems to be a renaissance of westerns - by their nature they tend to be more historical and less fantastical. I dunno, is there a specific year you've decided it's too new to be a historical epic?
@@methos-ey9nf I don't know if this is right or not, but I think the content creator want to make a point about the trend shift from "roman--anglo-saxon-centrist" kind of historical epic to the more contemporary trend of western cinema. Definitely, the content creator kinda confused his definition for "roman--anglo-saxon-centrist" kind of historical epic with epic trope in general, but it's the easy kind of mistake to make which kinda butchered the entire data presented in this video anyway.
@@avoidant560 in this case there is a historical epic renaissance made by "Viking"-History (and mediovedial).
Missing points in the video. There was corona, so cinema were closed. And most of the entertainment is consumed at home today. And that many more people around the world can enjoy media (or go to theaters) than 20-10 years ago.
Vikings could be counted in the video as an historical epic.
In conclusion is harder to determine which movie is a blockbuster, by only reviewing the gross made.
And that people today would pay for theaters for precisely the entertainment they want to feel. In recent years was Marvels for being all-inclusive movies with massive VFX and you can go (theoretically) watch it with everyone from everywhere (theoretically).
For example fo an english man would be extremely difficult to watch Netflix The King in the Cinema with a French girlfriend...
Uh, Clash of the Titans isn’t a historical epic. It’s a fantasy movie more in line with the Comic Book trend than with the historical epics trend. I mean I can look it up, but I’m fairly certain there were not any giants in ancient greece or robot birds for that matter. I mean Star Wars takes place “a long time ago in a galaxy far far away” and you wouldn’t consider that a historical epic I’d assume.
Great video. Make sure to chek out Napoléon this year :) Directed by Ridley Scott. I think its going to be awesome
I think it is important to remember that people thought the pirate genre was dead. Then we got Pirates of the Caribbean
And that series revitalised the genre, oh wait, just like that other dead genre the western, you can still have outliers…
@@johnjohnson7743 pirates of C are kinda half-dead.. haven't heard of anyone around watch one in theatres since the 3rd
@@frinzerevan5655 those last two, as bad as they were, still made money and with the whole Johny depp business earlier this year, a sixth one may happen. Apart from that, I don’t think you understood my comment, the point was no revitalisation of the pirate genre, just a creation of a franchise.
@@johnjohnson7743 my point was a smart ass joke
@@frinzerevan5655 it was more of a smart arse comment than a point, now that’s a smart arse comment about a smart arse comment, will the cycle never end
The Northman and The Last Duel were both awesome films and critical successes.
People just didn’t go and watch them.
Last duel was dogshit
They weren’t well marketed. I don’t even know what The Last Duel is.
The Northman was *excellent*, absolutely engrossing. Too bad it was not profitable.
oh yes let's just forget about the pandemic that's been happening around the world
@@TheRealSpeedWolf I guarantee that both movies would still be struggling to break even
For me, its the dour, grey filters they use.
Medieval people LOVED colors! Shining steel plate armors with stark colored tabards, banners, cloaks and plumes. Castles and cathedrals with strong color palettes. Villages with roses, ornaments, green and gold fields.
Instead, we're shown The Last Duel as a cold, grey, dour location that nobody wants to escape to.
One of the main reasons for Avatars success was its world with saturated colors. Introduce that to historical movies and people WILL come and see it.
Realism apparently 😂
According to filmmakers, gray and dark suggests grittiness and they want their films to look gritty. But instead of gritty, the filmmakers are greedy.
It's not just that, they have to build actual sets that costs a fortune and fill it with an actual good story but hollywood long forgot how to make an original story that can grap the audience so no one going to risk 150-200 million on a film like that when they can just reboot another franchise for lower risk. Until those blockbusters starts to flop there is no place for a movie about Ceasar or Napoleon, Richard the lion heart etc
@@davids8127 CGI exist y'know, we can make it a lot cheaper for the massive set pieces using CGI while the smaller close up shots uses real props in order to achieve that high quality shots. Props looks good but it's cost will balloon in size if you use too much of it and CGI can have bad quality control if there's too much of it as well, always use both in moderation.
Regardless the last duel was a dope f****** movie
Kingdom of Heaven... the Director's cut, was brilliant. Unfortunately, the studio figured they needed to cut crucial storylines to make the movie short enough to "make a profit." Bad choice on their part, but watching the longer version makes the ultimate experience of watching the movie 10x better, a explains various character's motivations more understandable.
Agreed. Though I'd like to add casting Orlando Bloom as the lead was an absolute failure. The supporting cast were brilliant. He was Orlando Bloom.
Where can I find the director's cut to watch nowadays?
Amazon has the Director's Cut. I'm sure there are other sources, but make sure whichever cut you get, it's the 3h and 9 m version, and not the 2h 19m.@@arthurg.calixto3338
Same with the Alexander movie. Directors cut is completely different movie
While not medieval or ancient history, Master and Commander was a rollicking historical adventure.
💯% !
On paper, it's a fairly simple, contained story- but what makes it so brilliant (beyond the great cast & the genius director- a fellow Antipodean, Peter Weir- *Picnic at Hanging Rock* & *Gallipoli* are his)- is the character drama, the lacking of pretention & arrogance behind the scenes; it's realistic, without being bombastic- **it honours the source material** (some minor changes don't really take away from the story, for me), doesn't treat the audience like 5-year olds who have to have their hands held & be spoon-fed exposition so they understand things - it has humour without being cheesy & ahistorical - it doesn't give way to any modern politics, be they gender or racial (natural diversity occurred in the Georgian navy, by virtue of their being a maritime empire).
The only _real_ concession made; the studio wouldn't let the book foe of the story be the antagonist of the movie- Russel Crowe's British crew were chasing an *_American_* ship, not a French one- but the studio heads were not down for that...
Huuuuugely underrated film. Should have won best picture against Return of the King.
My favourite film apart from Lord of The Rings for sure
Amazing film.
It had like a hundred nominations. A true masterpiece. The only thing was it had to compete with LOTR that year
One of my biggest issue with a lot of these epics is how they often make most of them look dull and gray and depressive. Bring back some color into history, because these places and peoples clothing choices were often full of color! I want to be in awe at the set-pieces, not stuck thinking how dull and muddy everything looks.
Barry Lyndon perfected this. It’s a history movie but it’s super lively and nice to look at
Its to emphasize on the “dark ages” which weren’t as dark at all.. according to numerous sources. So I agree with you.
It's the infamous "middle ages filter", which is quite recent actually. If you watch movies settled in medieval period you'll notice that back in the day they were a lot more colourful (and so more accurate). It's just in the last 20/30 years that everything turned grey/brown
Yes its unfortunate BUT it definitley woulda been muddy and dirty BUT also extremely colorful in terms of attire, banners, and castles. One thing that harms these movies are that many directors use ACTUAL castles for sets and they are dilapidated due to age and therefore look big and statuesque but also shitty on screen and drab when in reality they woulda been glistening white, sand colored, or painted. Too expensive I suppose or dondorectors think the audience is so used to seeing castles and palaces grey and jacked up that they would see colored palaces silly??
Nah gives it a serious feel which you don’t get anymore juwt cheesy jokes
In my opinion, the genre is not dying out at all but seems to be better suited to tv show format and has generally made the switch for longer stories to be told on screen
I forgot about the tv shows: Rome, Tudors and Spartacus. I guess Game of Thrones falls into that group as well.
@@finfog4590 Then why aren’t more being made??
More are being made. Spartacus was just announced as getting a revival
@@finfog4590No GOT is purely fantasy.
People don't have a problem with historical epics. People have a problem with bad historical epics
You didn't watch the video.
I miss the historical epic genre. Kingdom of Heaven directors cut is a modern masterpiece that many people never saw. If you can track it down go watch a slow burning intelligent epic. It's up there with gladiator and the Lawrence of Arabia's
I will say the death of the apothecary/archangel michael/god felt a little odd to me but I completely agree. It is as thought provoking as it is visually epic and hits a plethora of notes well
@Karl with a K Bloom is better cast in troy, admittedly, but the film is much more than him. In koh he is really is just a portal for exposition, like a silent video game protagonist
@Karl with a K that's why I suggested the directors cut as other side characters are more fleshed out along with more scenes about baileans wife
@Karl with a K So there weren't any young people in history?
i wouldn't call Kingdom of Heaven a masterpiece but it definitely was a pretty fun piece of historical fiction. Orlando Bloom took a lot of wind out of the film's sails tho, the guy just can't act.
I miss the early 2000's. When Gladiator, Troy, Kingdom of Heaven and those kinds of movies drew people to the cinemas, and not only one beat superhero comedies.
Kingdom of Heaven looked visually good, but it was ahistorical, anti-christian and modernist.
Don't forget Alexander, which was kinda good and relax to watch even if not entirely historical.
Shows how dumb and easily entertained the masses are becoming. Do people prefer nowadays watching a historical movie mostly grounded in reality with the possibility of learning something from it? No, because that would be too much for their 10 sec attention span tiktok fried brain so MORE SUPERHEROES, MORE CGI, More braindead content.
@@Michael_the_Drunkard good. Christianity should be eradicated. Along with all the other major religions. Hateful groups that indoctrinated people at an early age should be banned.
@@Michael_the_Drunkard "looked visually good" amongst many other positives.
Honestly, I can't take you seriously in the slightest. Do you hate 99% of 'historical epics?'
If not, then your 'criticism' is worthless.
Someone needs to make a duology where part 1 is about Hannibal and part 2 is about Scipio. Name recognition is there without being too familiar, diverse cast, cool visuals, epic scale, and compelling characters.
Superhero fatigue is already present. I think Marvel struggles now that they are moving to a new cast and new heroes. The original cast were more popular and I get the feel that Avengers: End Game was the high point of super hero and it is going to be a slow decline. That being said, historic epics have a tough road. I also think they need to be unique and novel to stand out. Cleopatra has been done to death. Perhaps a movie around Genghis Khan, the Fall of Constantinople, or Cyrus of Persia might be a winner. Do some topics that have NEVER been done before. I think Historical Epics have also suffered with the current content just not being interesting and frankly the acting/casting not being well done. Across the board, Hollywood is suffering from quality. Movies that are well-written and acted are doing well. Braveheart and Gladiator had good acting and writing while Egypt: Gods and Kings did NOT.
I think we need to venture outside of Europe for these movies. I totally agree with Genghis Khan! I would also love to have more movies about things like the Opium wars in China, The explorations of Zheng He, The pilgrimage of Mansa Musa, First contact with Maori, etc. I would also die for a movie about the Inca! We really need to start getting creative with the history in South America because it would be amazing!
The fall of Constantinople would absolutely be the #1 historical movie I'd want to see. Quite possibly the greatest last stand in history (I find it far more interesting than Thermopylae), and so few people know the story. I'd watch that in a heartbeat.
@@invisiblemango3536 y'all spitting facts. phenomenal ideas.
@@stacie1595 phenomenal ideas i don't mind the ancient world of Egypt, Rome, and Greece but there re other civilizations. Also if they do, do the ancient do different periods and dynasties.
Dang a movie about Cyrus the Great would be cool, but idk if I trust holywood to make the Achemenid Persian Empire not look like they are Arabs from the 11th century
The endless onslaught of remakes, and reboots is devastating to more than just historical epics, it's hurting the whole movie industry.
Thank you for saying this, I hate reboots and sequels, just make a damn new movie!!!
@@ciri_riannon235 convince people to watch it.
It's really really hard for Hollywood to take risks when superhero films are near-guaranteed cash cows. So what we get instead is regurgitated safe superhero films and remakes that add little to nothing to film as art.
Its not just the movie industry, the videogame industry is also quite lacking in original material. Remakes, sequels, and reboots may be low-branch cash grab but it unfortuanatly works as long as you have an established IP.
@@themingler441 It's not though, most of the top grossing movies every year weren't franchises, it's only in the last few years (decade at most) that most movies are just reboots, remakes, or sequels. I'm sure there's a whole load of reasons for it, but I've highlighted some I think are noteworthy:
1) Chinese market is huge, and offers an easy way to make a quick buck, but make sure the movie complies with their propaganda, thus it can't be deep (or contradict the CCP's message)... Marvel films, or anything Disney, is STUFFED with CCP messaging.
2) Western propaganda, a lot of movies have to comply with modern political points (e.g., they have to pass the 'Bechdel test), which limits creativity. Movies from all sorts of genres are all starting to have the same message. You're told HOW to think. This also incentivises 'remakes' to make an 'updated' film for 'modern' audiences. Politics doesn't allow for creativity in it's arts, because that can mean dissenting opinions are allowed. Most classic movies wouldn't be allowed today, and if they were published, witch hunts would commence.
3) Pretty much what you said, to make easy cash, and unfortunately, enough people will watch reboots/remakes.
I can feel it already, ever since I've watched Endgame, I have felt the tiredness, the fatigue of superheroes, every month there's a new one, I enjoyed the Batman and Logan, but I think in the next few following years, it will start to fade, in fact it's already starting with Thor Love and Thunder, and She Hulk, by 2030, I think, superheroes will be what western is now.
EDIT: This comment blew up, let's see who the time proves right? And before you feel the need to tell me the following:
1) But Western isn't dead?!!!! I know it's not, but it's not as popular as it once was and I was sort of using that to make a point.
2) But X MCU movie earned a lot of money? I KNOW OK, but fact is they haven't made as much, Disney brought back Bob Iger and Avatar has made 1 billion in box office in 2 weeks proving that superheroes aren't the hottest shit in the market ( Dune, Everything Everywhere All At Once)
3) the X MCU films was during the Pandemic? The Pandemic has really settled in 2022 besides MCU has streched it's VFX team so much they have not only dropped in effects but in writing deparment as well, using the pandemic to justify poorly made movies is just denial.
4) You hate superheroes, you hate MCU, you hate hurr durrr blah blah????? No I don't, I'm just a man who observes the current state of film and have come with this opinion, I'm open to change and I think Hollywood should change.
Thank you for all the likes and replies even those that made me cringe worse than Greta Thunberg talking about politics.
I can't wait for that to come.
More like tired of crappy no effort superhero movies
The intro to man of steel is probably my favorite bit of any superhero movie, Russell Crowe's acting was amazing. Need more of that
It’s starting to fade now. The craziness of the stories and unrelatable plots are making the newly released superhero movies tiring to watch. The last one that I actually gone to see was Joker, and that was epic. The rest, nah.
Depends… still have invincible and the boys. Ik they’re not movies but still superhero genre media
Remember how much many those movies make, every time. Even during the pandemic, hundreds of millions of people went to see it and loved it. You are wrong and simply don’t like popular culture? Why?
I've been noticing / thinking about this over the past couple years and I'm glad somebody finally did a video on it
Food for thought:
Matt Damon made a great assessment about why we don't see the same amazing one off type movies being made, (ex: Shawshank redemption, Goodwill Hunting, Forrest Gump etc.). It makes me think something very similar happened with these historic epics.....
Back in the day, prior to Netflix and streaming services, you basically were guaranteed TWO cash cows: theatrical release AND then the release of VHS/DVD. This basically doubled your opportunity of making your money back, increasing potential profits.
As mentioned, historic epics, (between the extras, costumes and the scale of what your trying to capture) is so costly, and you aren't often afford the same opportunity to make your money back. Streaming serves have literally changed the landscape of what is profitable and how we view our media. We don't buy physical copies as often as we used to do. You need a big bang type movie or a familiar franchise, even nostalgia, to draw audiences back into the theater and to potentially put up the money for a physical copy, almost like a souvenir. (DVD sales while still holding, dropped by a staggering 86% from 2008)
which is why it makes sense that the streaming service companies have been losing money. Even TV Shows are expensive like old movies used to be. I mean Rings of Power, Mandalorian, even smaller shows are millions in budget and streaming service subscription just doesn't recoup losses. It seems they will move back towards cable and honestly I'm glad, anything to get cinema back to what it used to be, because right now we make million-dollar movies and they get released and disappear into the digital void, never to be seen or remembered, and its bleak as hell.
I actually really like Troy 2004. It has its problems and definitely strays very far from the source material, but I appreciate the idea of trying to make a more "grounded, realistic" version of the Iliad. A historical epic version of a story that was essentially oral mythology. I have a soft spot for the battles, the 1 on 1 duels, the costumes, set design, and of course the casting. I really liked Brad Pitt as Achilles. Sean Bean as the wise and cunning Odysseus was perfect casting and I wish we got to explore his character more. I actually would've liked to see a sequel with this setting's version of the Odyssey. Young Rose Byrne as Briseis awakened something in 12 year old me. And of course the duel between Achilles and Hector is something I just love coming back to. It's definitely hampered by the fact that it cuts out the mythological aspect of the story which drives most of the character motivations in the original. However, as its own weird little reimagining I can appreciate everything it tried to do and all the things that it did right.
The iliad wasn’t a myth
The biggest problem with Troy is that they didn't make a sequel with Sean Bean telling the story of the Odyssey
@@maxwelljarman7785 More or less. The war between achaeans and trojans did happen but it mostly likely for control of the trade routes to the Black Sea, fertile in wheat. Troy sits right at the entrance of the Hellespont, perfectly positioned to decided who goes and leaves to the Aegan and Black seas, for a fee. Hence, why Troy's strategic position was important to conquer - not because of some love shenanigans
Interestingly the idea of adapting the Iliad in a more grounded manner was something that Troy's writer David Benioff also applied when doing his adaptation of Game of Thrones, the books A Song of Ice and Fire which Game of Thrones is based on rely on supernatural elements more but Benioff chose to adapt the material in a way that felt more believable to audiences outside of the fantasy genre, he did the same thing with Troy, kinda of wish 300 had gotten the same treatment, Troy looks beautiful and so naturalistic and had a script that balanced the Trojan and Greek characters, while in 300 the Persians are seen as demonic characters and visually the film's surrealistic look is aging very poorly.
@@Gabagu I think they're both very different and I still like 300 a lot. But it's funny - one is a myth done realistically and another is a fact done fantastical
I'd take a good 2000s style historical epic over super hero movies any day. These historical epics were my entire childhood and inspired me to become a film maker today.
I'm glad to see some are still trying to keep the genre alive, but I hope it soon gets another golden age similar to that we saw in the 2000s.
It's the result of generation and cultural brainwashing that we have lost the audience of such epics, i wish people could open their eyes to the valor and beauty of historical epics.
If ur a film maker why dont u do it
@@qualicumjack3906 if you send a big enough donation to my buymeacoffee page, I absolutely would.
😂🤣
@@AlexanderPallis
U think guys who make historical epics pay for it themselves? Nah, they get paid
Ah yeah, as a 40-year-old Kirk Douglas in Spartacus was a child-hood favourite. Because my parents were real OGs I didn't grow up on 2000's movies I watched real 20th-century FILMS. Nothing after Gladiator is worth a mention. Everything since 9/11 has been garbage and if you don't agree then you're probably already part of the problem
Well, it’s July 2023 and Ridley Scott is making a movie about Napoleon, with Joachim Phoenix
Dude, this video was made and edited so well! You definitely deserve more subs!
It's all cyclical. They thought science fiction was dead, then Star Wars happened. They thought the Western was dead, then Unforgiven happened. They thought that Top Gun was an 80's phenomenon, the Top Gun: Maverick happens and makes boffo box office. Disney says that 2D animation is dead, but Japanese Anime says it's not. William Goldman said about Hollywood: "Nobody knows anything." No genre is ever truly dead, not in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing and is willing to buck the trend.
Trends are just people's fascination with the buffet table. If something has value, it should stand on it's own.
Western is definitely dead on film and TV, although videogames keep it somewhart alive. Fighter pilot stuff is pretty much dead except for outliers like Top Gun. Sci Fi is making regular appearances in all media. 2D animation is making a slow comeback in the West through series like Omniman yet its dead on cinema.
@@MrAlepedroza Idk, there's a good Western every now and then.
The True Grit and 9:10 to Yuma remakes, The Homesman, Bone Tomahawk, The Revenant, Django Unchained, The Hateful Eight I didn't care much for but still counts cause others did. Plus modern westerns like No Country for Old Men, Hell or High Water, Wind River
TV/Webseries - Godless was absolutely flawless, Damnation is great, Deadwood is beloved, and Yellowstone is still going strong and got a prequel starring Harrison Ford(!!) and Helen Mirren(!!)
Verdict: he ain't dead, Jim.
(just because you don't watch it, doesn't mean it isn't out there)
@@bubblewrapstargirl all of the ones you listed are somewhat dated and even modern westerns look back on the wild west not as a glory freedom soaked badland bt as a harsh place to live in with an unforgiving and aging aura (even rdr2 which is a game followed this)
@@magniwalterbutnotwaltermag1479 bro, nobody takes you seriously when you look at history and go "ungh dousnt align with my always right super moral modern superior beliefs". History wasnt only racism and mean bad guys, unlike what modern social media forces into your head. People will likely think we were just as violent as the last century, dont be pretentious
"When superhero movies show a sign of weakness...."
man, that day can't come soon enough
Superhero movies are shit for children.
I'd say it's on the horizon. Everyone I've talked to seems to agree Marvel's best days are behind them, and their focusing on quantity over quality just hurts them more.
Marvels phase 4 has been incredibly lackluster, no massive box office successes, a few box office losses; many critically dubious releases. A lot of public goodwill has been lost the last couple of years for Marvel.
Then theres DC, we all know that has lost a good deal of bankability.
Lets hope the super hero genre stutters hard, it would mean Hollywood would need to get creative to make money again; and thats what film buffs actually want, some creativity for a change.
Agreed
I say if their next Ant-Man movie flops, it is confirmed downhill.
Very well thought out and studied content. Love the stats included lol Subscribed 😎👍
Years before this video, I had the same thought and wondered why the historical genre was in decline. This video really summed it all up. Thank you.
Something that you only kind of touch on is how a lot of historical epics became cash grabs, like superhero movies, and set aside the writing thinking that violence could make up for it. What keeps me revisiting Gladiator is how damn good its story is. The writing, the dialogue, the characters, and the underlying morals are sublime. The stoic philosophy of Marcus Aurelius exists just below the surface and there's always something new to appreciate. When I first saw it, I loved it as an epic action movie. When I watch it now, I am moved by the characters and Maximus' struggle between hating violence and yet having to use it at every turn. What you see in a lot of the later historical/mythological films is that their writing is horrible: Troy, King Arthur, Robin Hood, should all have been excellent due to their stories and casting, but they fell completely flat. Exodus, the Titans movies, etc were even more appalling. People want to see huge battles, yes, but we also need a reason to care about the outcome and that comes from the characters and narrative.
Yeah that's a good point. The movies also got worse so they kind of also contributed to their own downfall.
It's interesting how in historical epics, people put very little value on actual historical accuracy. Gladiator is a great film, very well-told story, but woefully inaccurate. And that doesn't matter to almost anyone in the audience.
Troy was fun tho, the Exodus and 300 were trash... never seen Gladiator or Braveheart but from what I heard, their historical inaccuracy makes Fate: Stay Night look closer to Arthurian epic than anything.
@Chauncer I don't think a blockbuster should be historical accurate as long as its a good movie like Gladiator and I'm a history fan. One place it could be pulled of is the Napoleonic era where lot of exciting characters risen the ranks due to their bravery but its hard to make a script cause of all the moving elements that interlink each other but I could imagine a story that focuses on Napoleon and one of his Marshalls, but there are just too many things happens to shred it into even a 3 hours movie. It's difficult to balance between action and character development and that's the main reason all the epics fall flat at the end.
@@benkalem A tale as old as time. Look adaptions in the pre film and television era. There were plenty of 19th century novels, plays and operas that did away with history even more so than what Hollywood does, often mixing and matching different times and stories altogether.
Gladiator was also my dad's favorite film, we went and saw it in theaters Twice back in 2000. Rest in peace dad, he passed this year in August at the age of 58.
The theatrical cut of Kingdom of Heaven MAY have killed it, but the Director's Cut of Kingdom of Heaven is still amazing.
I’m sorry for your loss. My Husband loved that movie too. Thanks for sharing and bringing back a fond memory. I agree, the Direction’s cut was amazing. I didn’t know Edward Norton was King Baldwin.
C’ya.
There's no may about it - 20th Century Fox forced Ridley to gut 50 minutes from the film despite it being shorter than LOTR Return of the King from over a year earlier.
50 minutes is just waaayy too much - could you imagine taking that much out of RotK?
When you see the directors cut after the theatrical it is painfully obvious what was missing, and how badly it damaged the narrative quality of the film to excise it.
Now I just need me a 4K Bluray of the DC to have most of my favourite Ridley films on the format - The Duellists is still sadly nowhere in sight either.
Yeah same it was my dad's favorite as well. Lost him in 2013 at 46 Years old
RIP to your dad, hopefully he is free to roam in his own peaceful field of wheat now. Gladiator is also my dad’s favourite film
What we need is the team behind Spartacus Blood and Sand get back together and make a Punic War show. Imagine their take on Hannibal and Scipio Africanus with multiple seasons to expand it all. Would be a helluva story. Heroes and villains on both sides!
Just today I saw a headline on my news service that they are going to do another SB&S with the original showrunners. Many questions on what/how/who of course but it was just an announcement. Whether it will come to fruition is something that we'll just have to wait and see. But an announcement is better than none at all I guess.
I'm surprised they haven't made anything but British tv movies or series about the conflict. I mean seriously, one of the most famous tacticians, some of the deadliest battles in Roman history, one of the most famous epic stories and all we got was a 1937 Fascist Italian propaganda blockbuster (which is, despite its shoddy online quality, quite fun, if you're really invested in old movies that is. They had real elephants (small ones) dressed up and got them to run inbetween huge armies)
Hell yeah 😊
@@GuineaPigEveryday I have seen that Italian film about the battle of Zama.
For what was essentially fascist propaganda,it was extremely well made.
bro said 1917 is a ww2 film
I'd say "historical epics" used to be one of the main blockbuster genres with huge budgets, A-list stars and cutting edge special effects (for their time). But they've been pushed off that pedestal by superhero movies. The historical films we still get may sometimes have big budgets but they're more dramas than spectacular epics.
Cleopatra. Pretty much sums up why we can't have nice things for now. I still occasionally go back and watch the one from 50+years ago, but dread the new one if greenlit.
And these days people are a lot more conscious of whitewashing, they don't want white actors depicting characters from Africa and the Middle East, so things like Ben Hur get a lot of controversy before people even encounter dodgy CGI or scripts.
Historical epics are one of my favourite genres. But judging how modern issues and outlooks are shoehorned into media these days, it's hard not to eyeroll at the look of pretty much any film set in the past. They all have a masculine acting woman at the forefront or ignore the racism/xenophobia of the time to explore more modern issues, especially in TV...
I blame "Prince of Persia" (2010) for ruining historical epics. The white washing in that film was a bridge too far and even conservative audiences balked at it. The movie was based on the video game Prince of Persia which itself was inspired by the early life Khosrow the Great who was the real prince of Persia in the 6th century AD. Renaming the character and casting a white actor ruined the movie and left people with a bad taste for the entire genre.
Most historical stuff I watch these days tend to be TV shows
@@AntiTMG I hear that. There's a lot to choose from these days
Historical TV is doing actually really well right now. Last Kingdom was so popular it was ended and then brought back for an entire film.. hopefully historical films can make a comeback as well. So many amazing historical stories that can be made into film.
I was waiting for someone to say this. The shows based on Vikings alone is enough to make this argument, lol
Yeah even though theres not a whole lot of new movies scratching my itch for this genre, TV is keeping me fed.
For real, The Last Kingdom and Vikings are greatly popular and beloved. Also even though it’s fantasy, House of the Dragon was hugely successful critically and commercially.
Don't forget Boardwalk Empire, Peaky Blinders, Mad Men, Outlaw King, Outlander etc. This is why blurring the line between sword and sandal and "historical epic" is such a bad idea.
@@dixonhill1108 There's also Medici, Turn: Washington's Spies, Barbarians, and Black Sails
the alexander arrives in india scene has always stood out to me and print in my memory, all the colors, golden elephants etc. it almost seems fantastical. so i think a well done movie in that era and setting would do graet.
I think that you're right, we're in a "historical epic recession". That being said I'm sure they'll return in time. Popular culture seems to have trends that ebb and flow and right now the tide is out for historical epics. That being said historical fiction seems to be a thriving literature topic so I would venture to say it's only a matter of time before someone writes a book that Hollywood can't resist.
On a personal note I've been on a super hero burnout for a decade now. They're good movies, but I swear if they remake Batman or Spiderman again I'm going to vomit . Also a lot of super hero stuff is getting to the point where it's almost nonsensical and the MCU is so bloated that half the time I feel lost watching those movies.
Great point, historical epics are such a fundamental and consistent part of literature and storytelling for centuries that it will return soon enough. Superheroes, not so much, they're so recent (in the perspective of history) and the movies so oversaturated. I mean how the hell did we only get like 7 really big Hollywood historical epics in the 2000s (compared to the dozens in the 50s-60s) and people were already tired, yet we've gotten dozens upon dozens of superhero stories and they still make so much damn money. I'm glad Ant-Man flopped, the MCU had their day, and i'm not gonna dismiss them because obviously the infinity war saga had some really good storytelling in there, we all know it, how else were we so invested. But its enough. And sorry but all those MCU-haters who also are obsessed with The Batman and Zach Snyder, i think its about time we move on from that too.
It should also be noted that the success of The Lord of the Rings, in particular The Two Towers, gave a boost to the historical epic's plausible profitability in the early 2000's.
Obviously, LOTR isn't historical, but the very reason why people went to see historical epics was almost the exact same as with LOTR. We wished to see large scale action scenes with real or semi-real actors, fighting in stunning locations, showcasing siege engines, flaming arrow volleys, cavalry charges, etc... (regardless of whether any of the aforementioned things were actually historical to begin with. The flaming arrow is a complete myth, for instance, as it's quite impractical and simply put on screen so audiences can see the arrows during night-scenes, which would actually be a sound disadvantage in real combat.)
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the success (and the raw creative talent on display in both Two Towers and Return of the King, in terms of depicting warfare) gave the impression that audiences were ready to be swept away by similar scenery and medieval-combat and feudal values-inspired escapism. In short, the war-epic was rising in popularity, and hollywood simply took notice. It's no coïncidence that Orlando Bloom is seen in the role of a protagonist in one of the biggest films of the genre, and that big celebrity names flocked to leading-man roles.
Fantasy dramas are a whole nother genre, my friend! Even if they both have epic battle scenes, they shouldn't be compared/put into the same category.
flaming arrows were not a complete myth kinda funny you state that so confidently. Maybe you meant how they are portrayed in movies as being more deadly or something being a myth.
@@yannick245 this comment is funny to me. OP literally gave evidence that corroborated LOTR w/ historical epics and the first reply is: “WhOlE OtHeR lEaGuE bRo”
Not to mention LOTR also communicates universal truths and sometimes we really just want to watch the good triumph over evil
One of reasons I loved Hobbit being expanded with the extra stuff not in the book and epic battles, is that I knew that there's no way movie studios get budget for epic fantasy battles outside of peak of LotR popularity. Notice that even Chronicles of Narnia didn't get a full adaptation, only like... three out of seven books? What to say about less legendary series... but people who seen Lord of the Rings crowds and decided "let's make it like this but _realistic_ and more so, "Hollywood realism" with more gray and brown and pantsu with capes" had another thing coming. Exodus film that tried to paint Biblical story about magic as "realistic" was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Ridley Scott made Blade Runner, right? And ended his career with goddamn Christian Bale whitewashed Moses... pathetic.
If you only seen kingdom of heaven theatrical cut i can deeply recommend the directors cut, it is a totally different movie and to me a master piece.
Meh, saw them both. Not even close to Braveheart and Gladiator. But hey, taste is just that, taste.
Directors cut is a million times better and fully fleshes out the storylines to make sense, great movie, it's a shame it couldn't come to the cinema like that
For real!!
what's the director's cut? I know it's the same movie but with some scenes that got cut in the theatrical version but why do they do that? also how can u see the director's cuts? why apps like netflix or Amazon never publish them?
@@Nicola-qx5lb Well, the director has a vision, creates a movie, the studio comes in, runs some testgroups. The test groups say, "its too long" "too boring" or "the ending is bad". So the studio tells the production company to cut things out to sell better at the cinema. This is the theatrical cut, for the cinema theater. A little later sometimes the directors original cut gets released on dvd or such. My suggestion is to learn how to pirate stuff. Go on ye ol thepiratebay and get these movies that arnt on the streaming sites. The streaming sites only have what they can be bothered to get.
Bravo! Excellent video essay!
Great analysis! I’d love to see an updated outlook with movies like Gladiator 2 and Denzel Washington’s Hannibal Barca movie coming soon, not to mention the recent tv hits like Shogun.
I'd love a political drama/epic based on the second triumvirate (Antony, Lepidus, and Octavian later Augustus).
HBO's ROME season 2 (of 2)
Yep. I had plans to write a trilogy novel series about exactly that when I was starting college. I was going to tentatively call it Wolves of Romulus (yeah yeah I know, sounds like Star Trek, I was 18 lol)
But then HBO made Rome and....yeah. Into the can it went.
@@JamesRDavenport Then, in 2023, you finally resume the project and go on to write a compelling, colorful and authentic trilogy!
Book 1: The story begins after the death of Julius Caesar. After a dramatic funeral, where Antony deliveres a fiery speech and tensions in Rome reach their boiling point, Cicero attempts to groom the new, young Caesar to act for the dying republic. Things happen, and the story culminates with the chaotic siege of Mutina, where the power hungry Antony is driven back... for now. We end with Caesar Jr. furiously marching his troops into Rome, after the ungrateful senate refused to grant the brazen 19 year old dictatorship.
Book 2: Philippi
Book 3: Actium, Alexandria + Augustus epilogue
I would love anything about fall of rome because i hate rome always. Too bad that Carthage didn't defeat them in Punic Wars but at least so called Barbarians did
@@lindgrenland Wow thanks! I'm currently working on a project inspired by 12th century Wales and Scotland, but you're right about one thing I will most likely revisit Wolves of R again. I made insane levels of notes for it that I still have. (The file away can) The research will get used one way or another, that's for sure.
I grew up with movies like troy, gladiator, 300, the last legion and they helped to shape who am I today
300 was a fantasy film
@@lastword8783 which is why it was so awesome haha
Then they started putting black guys in Robin Hood and 'wow look the 'istorical epic is dead m8 wot happ'nd?'
They have a way of making things illegal without making them illegal, don't they. Welcome to democracy.
So youre A slave holding child molesting misogynistic extremist who wants to beat up brown people ?
@@thebaddestogre-3698 it was also gay
I'm almost certain, that the genre of historical epics will get get a huge revive in the future. For the moment it's totally fine that there is not a lot of production around this genre. It's like the silent before a storm. I hope this storm will bring us some very good movies!
Troy and Kingdom of Heaven were phenomenal, and both easily two of the most underrated films, period, of the past few decades imo
I just checked, and truly that movie is really underrated, with a critic score of 53%. Unbelievable.
@@maythesciencebewithyou I mean, both films aren't without their share of flaws/criticisms, but in every way - from the acting, writing, cinematography, special effects, and character development - they both are phenomenal movies, or at the very least - good movies. IMO both movies are up there with "Gladiator" )i know - gasp, that's heresy, lol), and i myself actually like "Troy" better than "Gladiator. "Gladiator's an awesome movie too, there are aspects that are massively overrated when compared to both "Troy" and Kingdom of Heaven," especially when it comes to the acting. Russel was decent in "Gladiator" but wasn't remotely deserving of an academy award nomination - let alone winning one! Art is subjective, i get that, but those who constantly when talking about "Troy" complain about Pitt's acting in "Troy" while praising Russel Crowe's in :Gladiator" is literally inconceivable for me. Though i think the movie itself is deserving of a nomination at least, but Crowe's acting performance has got to be on of the least deserving oscar winners for best actor of all time
Loved those movies, especially Troy. I don't get the bad critics towards that movie
@@bautistagarais488 Same! I hate seeing a movie and loving it, then finding out years later that apparently everyone else hated it. Then go to re-watch it to see if you were remembering it wrong, and discover that - NO, no were not! The movie still rocks, and now your wondering what the fuck is wrong with everybody else lol!
I found Troy, Alexander and Kingdom of Heaven all very disappointing. But then again, Gladiator quickly became (and remains) my all-time favorite movie and it came first. I'd probably think differently if the order were reversed.
The biggest reason is that production companies do not want to take risks anymore. Marvel and similar franchises represent almost guaranteed profit, and after tasting such insane profits production companies are not willing to go back to the days where they had no guarantee about the profits of a movie. But this will pass soon imo, i can already see people around me getting fed up of superhero movies.
Agreed. I think cinematic universes are going to eat themselves. They eventually become so big and long that they exclude new audience members. Trying to get new viewers for a Marvel movie is already becoming similar to trying to convince someone to tune in to the 7th season of a TV show. At a certain point, people just don't feel like investing the time to catch up and then each viewer you lose to boredom, controversy, or life changes that prevent them from continuing the time investment can't be replaced by a new viewer.
The base of people willing to shell out to see a comic book movie in theatres or pay for early viewing on something like Disney+ is just not sustainable.
I'm sure there will be a significant base of people for a long time, but the days of "everyone" having to go see the new one are rapidly coming to an end and that's even if they stay consistently good.
great content
The Northman is also a great epic, one of my favourites
Woke culture wanted to crucify Northman, but the movie was so brutal they ran out of arguments :)
@@alexrowe9638 what were they saying, I've heard most critics praise it and most people I talk to like it. It feels like some people want other people to get mad so they can point out how mad they're getting for some "gothcu" moment.
@@GameChanger-xi4iy When i went to watch it, it had already been running in cinema for a bit and there was maybe around 10 or 15 people in the cinema that night, around 5 people left during various points in the movie, it was quite funny.
I think these movies are very difficult to make and also interest has gone down over the years, we as a society have changed greatly and most content is so watered down these days.
The Northman is a well-made film, but its story makes no sense, it's not based on real Sagas, and in many scenes, it falls into complete ridiculousness.
Northman was great because there was zero concession to modern (woke) sensibilities. No forced diversity casting, a story that could have come straight out of the sagas including all the weirdness of Norse religion, and even the "hero" takes actions that modern society would find morally reprehensible but fit in perfectly with the ethics of the time.
Braveheart, Kingdom of Heaven, Troy and Gladiator are sublime.
They may be good films but none of them are actually depicting historical events. The "history", in them would make an actual history buff cry.
Especially braveheart.
@Pierzing.glint1sh7 luckily they're movies, not documentaries. Either way, because of films like them, thousands of people have had a love for history ignited, including myself
@@StewartFletcher well that's really good to hear.
History is fascinating and it deserves to explored and depicted properly.
Don't forget Joan of Arc The Messenger
@@pierzing.glint1sh76 I'm a history buff whose education focused on medieval history, none of these films bothered me. They're not documentaries, they say "inspired by". And actually, the Braveheart film very closely follows one particular folktale version of the story of William Wallace as opposed to the historical documentation. So, depending on your perspective (actual history vs intentionally eschewing it to capture the spirit and perception on the tale) an argument could be made that it is actually the most accurate of the bunch, since it achieved what it actually intended. The same could be said of the patriot and apocalypto. Mel Gibsons historical epics in general are always amalgamation of fact and local stories to tell the version as its ingrained in the locals hearts, not as can actually be verified by fact checks.
I feel so bad for not having seen "The Northman" in theatres :( Feels like a missed opportunity to enjoy a film of such epic scale.
Same here
Same. :( I wanted to see it in theaters but couldn't find the time to see it in theaters before it was too late and not showing anymore. Watched it on a flight and felt so sad I didn't get to enjoy it on the big screen.
I went to the cinema with my brother to see it and there were only 2 other people at the screening. Massive shame it didn't get more recognition.
I saw it and last duel in theatres. Why didn’t you?
same. It was so good and didn't even make half it's money back.
The films might be dying but the historical shows are a huge success with shows like The Last Kingdom and Vikings. Also though it’s fantasy House of the Dragon was hugely successful.
The Last Duel is really underrated. It’s 3 POV format is hardly ever done in film and it gave it a lot of rich depth
It wasn't that good. I never saw any marketing for it, so I watched it with no preconceived notions. I enjoy epics and historical dramas. The storytelling just wasn't engaging. Cinematography was average, looked like a high budget mid 2000s show. Pacing was also questionable. Perhaps the Rashomon style narrative is what threw it off.
@@tedroscourt1205 it suffered from Ridley Scott wanting to premiere it in theaters (advertised in hbo) during still covid-ruled times
The format AND the theme sounds like a Rashomon ripoff. Except, ya know, Rashomon still feels fresh.
Yes, and the story actually happened!
Troy and Kingdom of Heaven are two of my all time favorites. Clash or the Titans is also a guilty pleasure, it's obviously somewhat of a B-movie but Sam Worthington is great and it's a super fun movie.
Kingdom of Heaven had good visuals, but the depiction of historical events like the crusades and the character of Balian is very post-modern and has little do with the common attitudes of the people back then.
good video lad
you left out "All Quiet on the western front" for WWI films but thanks for this video. I have been pondering why these films went away as well.
I live in Germany and noticed that no one cared for that movie (I loved it!), but now that it's nominated for 9 Oscars everybody is talking about it. They need the American's attention to like it xD
@@ViriatoII Because it was boring. It looked amazing, but offered absolutely redeming. There was another one on netflix that had the same outcome where it looked amazing but I unironically cannot recall the name. The entire genre is just a slush of luke warm plots, lacking in motivation lackluster average male leads (which like I get it too - its war blah blah average hero but its BORING), and a total incoherent movement of scenes which like hey again its a war but the cinematic flow is broken up and punctuated by too many detractions from major plot lines, which get washed out under the mud and grit and boots of incoherent sideplots and "well it was historical so we included it lol" scene.
1917 was a masterpiece. All quiet on the western front was dull and skippable. Dunkirk was...overrated, but brilliant in someways. The "Forgotton Battle" was AWFUL. There's a reason band of brothers (WW2) was so popular, and that's beacuse the CHARACTERS were amazing. The same can be said with Tom Hanks in the World War 2 film Saving Private Ryan. Those films followed closely to the heart of the characters and actually gave us insight into their driving motivations, rather than just dull scenes where some random unknown actor stares at some unknown picture prop and does a slow zooming effect with sad music. We're so so over it.
@@misseclipse7415 overall agree, especially on 1917 being the masterpiece. The forgotten battle I appreciated that for the first time I saw a realistic mentality of a volunteer fighting for Germany. Oppositelly, Private Ryan fully portrayed Germans as distant strawmen at best, completely dehumanized at most. An understandable bias but I am now more sensible to it
Never understood that a big Hollywood epic about the battle of Hastings has never been made.
Because you will some idiot exec casting a black woman in the film and Twatter whining over the toxic masculinity.
@Long John Thilver oh noes, what next... what if they also finally cast an actual Middle Eastern person as a prince of Egypt instead of Christian Bale!
Also a kid in the 1990s. Seeing Gettysburg in theaters when I was 6, led to a life long obsession as well as a Bachelors and two Masters degrees in history..........and far to many history books, uniforms and articats
I've always loved the Intelligent Epics. "Quo Vadis", "The Robe", "The Egyptian", "Ben-Hur" and Kubrick's "Spartacus". "The Ten Commandments" is Hokum .... But Glorious Hokum!
good video. i love history and i love history movies. would love to see some well done ones
I got to say I am baffled that we have yet to have a movie about Napoleon or Wellington, both historical figures have huge potential for movies.
I hear Waterloo (1970) is good
Ridley scott is producing a Napoleon movie with joaquin phoenix as napoelon
Stanley Kubrick was pegged to make Napoleon. That might be the same one Scott is doing now. I'd love a Boudica epic, a Tiberius film where the villain begins as the protagonist and goes full-evil. If even possible though, a Yamamoto Tsunetomo story - Book of the Samurai.
Waterloo
SEE Waterloo (1970)?? Come on don't criticise the lack of something if you haven't even bothered to look it up. Also War and Peace (1966), a set of Soviet films that covered Tolstoy's book about the Napoleonic Wars. "The Battle of Borodino against the Napoleon's invasion is the largest battle scene ever filmed. Director Bondarchuk made history by introducing remote-controlled cameras that moved on 300 meter-long wires above the scene of the battlefield." But because its a Soviet film its not exactly required-watching, and its also insane that Waterloo is still neglected to this day, its a brilliant film, and super accurate, and the wonder at seeing the huge battle portrayed in-camera, everything practical, it feels lifelike and comes the closest to what it might have felt like than modern movies can. I mean I'm sure Ridley Scott will do great, but the days of pre-CGI historical epics is quite something, the stakes are so high and you are invested because its REAL.
I'm surprised you included 300 in the golden 2000s era of historical films. It was fun to watch, but it was the one that started the whole "making historical films like superhero movies" trend that paved the way for movies like Wrath of the Titans etc and as you pointed out contributed to the decline of the genre.
It was never an historic epic, it was made around the same time as Sin City (released the year before) which was also graphic novel related. If you think about it, it was only a couple of years after the Lord of the Rings trilogy came out which was also not an historic epic but based on literature. The Chronicles of Narnia came out the year before 300 and also featured a mass battle, lots of swords and guys dressed in armour.
300 was based on the comic books, it knew it wasn't historically accurate.
It was a based on a historical event. It left a cultural impact as a movie that portrayed a real historical society that actually existed. Hell, the real mayor of modern day Sparta invited Gerard Butler to the city some years ago to give him an award. It showed that movies that represent historical societies and events could be made by people like Zack Snyder without it ruining the atmosphere or the aesthetic historical epics were supposed to have.
People complaining about 300 being inaccurate are right, but it's as inaccurate as Braveheart, Exodus, Gladiator, or other "realistic" films... I hated 300 for other stuff. Realism is not as important.
@@KasumiRINA what do you mean not as innacurate? the story of the battle of Thermopylae is completely different from the 300 comics. Most notable is that the 300 number in real life refers to the soldiers that stayed for the rest of sparta to retreat. Not the soldiers that went to the battle originally. The only things that actually happened as shown is that 300 Spartans died fighting, and Leonidas died with his men. That's it. Oh wait. In the movie and comics only 299 Spartans died so they couldn't even keep that part correct.
Napoleon already looks amazing from what we've seen. hope it succeeds so we could maybe get a sequel of this video...? :p
An interesting video. I've been wondering why these historical epics haven't been quite as popular nowadays. Nowadays, I'm getting my hit for these from TV series (first there was 'Spartacus', then we've had 'Black Sails', and now a lot more, such as the German series 'Barbarians' or the Korean series 'Kingdom' if you count that as historical), which might also be one of the reasons, as TV series format allows for a longer story-telling of a whole series of historical events than just a single 2-hour movie.
The Northman isn't an Historical Epic in the traditional sense, but I think Robert Eggers tried to appeal to certain values of spectacle while searching for a more authentic representation of the time period and culture, and I'm a sucker for the attention to detail around folklore and magic that he brings to the table. Maybe that can be a new paradigm in pop-historical movies.
Roger Ebert? The film critic who's been dead for awhile now?
@@fromthehaven94 lol, my bad. Robert Eggers*** (edited) 😂 Thanks!
I honestly kinda love 2004 Alexander, I find that the melodramatic acting people often complain about fits the subject well, the casting overall is pretty great (gotta love Colin) with the whole Irish actors as Macedonians an added fun detail, amazing soundtrack by Vangelis (RIP), and last but not least the Battle of Gaugamela is seriously one of the best depictions of premodern battle in general and ancient specifically (watch that shit on repeat).
It has it's problems, mainly structure and pacing imo, but still up there on my list of best historical films or media in general.
P.S. check out some of the interviews of Colin Farrell on the film, very interesting but kinda sad.
It's absolute garbage.
The only appealing thing are the visuals, the script is completely non-historical, so you can have all the landscapes, customes, armor, soundtrack, etc you want, but if the script fails, the whole movie flops.
Ridley Scott's best film is his first film: The Duelists. I saw this movie at the cinema. It is a masterpiece of the image, which cannot be played in the same way on TV or via DVD. Another great historical epic: Ran (by Akira Kurosawa).
Accurate enough setting to emurse me is all I need to love historical themed content. Love history, and love being able to "experience" it.
at 7.01 you can see 300 is cheaper on budget for its use of CGI but the list is a great lineup nonetheless. One of the key things in losing an era is that people will package and discuss it so we can return to what made it successful and analyse it later. Its a worthy genre that people need attention span ,intelligence and patience for.
It worked for 300 because it wasn't trying to be realistic or serious.
For me, the 1960 Stanley Kubrick Spartacus gave us the blue prints on how to do epic movie with a big ending battle scene, but still having a good story. Unfortunately today, they becoming more reliant on CGI action scenes too carry the film
Spartacus had a pretty weak story though
DO YEW RMEMBA IN THE MIG NINEYS -- Love the content.
Thank you for including King Arthur (Clive Owen). I loved that movie
Yeah underrated movie, saw that in the cinema back in 2004
One thing to note is that the desire for historical entertainment isn’t dead, the assassins creed series is all about putting the player in a new historical setting, as well as other very successful examples. So rather than mostly out of the public mindshare, such as the western genre, it’s still popular in some way.
I’ve personally never thought there was ever a truly dead genre. It’s as you said “Hollywood comes in waves.” We see certain genres of movies get milked all the time in Hollywood and it’s more “the way they make” those movies that dies and not the genre itself.
This happen to the rom-com because there’s only so many ways you can try to convince and audience of that two good looking movie stars would find love under impossible circumstances and it’s never so impossible. But that doesn’t mean comedy or even romance is dead in cenima. In this day and age Tv and streaming is picking up the slack on what Hollywood isn’t making. Yet, soon even the way they make those shows will die out as well. For the Historical Epics it can be done but you really gotta bring something new to the table if it’s gonna be in theaters again. It can’t just be swords and sandles or big speaches and bigger battles, but instead really use history to speak to people living today. If it’s truly brings the trilles as much as thought and care people will show up.
Agree with everything you said.
These days fact checking is so much easier, we all carry super computers with us all the time that can fit in our pockets... And yet there's this incredibly lazy approach to storytelling that comes off as so insincere when not enough research has been done on a time period or certain event. And once you lose that suspension of disbelief....
I know GOT doesn't count, but I'll never forget them replacing Robb's book marriage of inconvenience after he sleeps with a noble girl (sulling his and her honour and possibly creating a bastard child, which he know was an awful life for his own bastard brother) in a moment of unbelievable vulnerability and grief (he just got word his best and oldest friend supposedly killed his baby brothers).... With a hot nurse who has super modern ideas about pacifism and helping all injured soldiers no matter their allegiance.
I was sitting there in disbelief like. What? What? WHAT? as the storyline continued. People like to go on and on about S5 being the drop in quality but I knew something was whack from the moment that plot arc changed.
Not so much milked as catheterised. And no one is going to go with prices as they are and life as it is to watch a bunch of gap brained Wazzocks prance around on screen... *cue: lady of soundtrack sorrow*
My love for this genre is so profound I like even the bad ones like Pompeii. The last Duel was amazing btw. Loved it. Looking forward to Napoleon.
Btw thanks for reminding me about the King on Netflix that and Outlaw King with Chris Pine were both really good.
Amazing piece. I love Troy so much, and I wish there were more movies like this coming out these days. While it's not exactly a historical epic, The Northman scratched a lot of this itch for me :D
Netflix did an adaptation of Troy, where Achilles as he was described in the Illiad as blonde haired and blue eyed was cast as an African.
Nice vid. Truly hope this genre makes a comeback in the future.
Thanks for the fascinating analysis of the historical epic.
You were definitely spot on about social media backlash influencing movie studio execs. Just look at last year when The Woman King suffered a boycott from those who argued the film downplayed how much Dahomey (modern Benin) profited from enslaving Africans. This boycott did seem to impact the overseas market, which prevented TWK from being a commercial success.
By contrast, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever was a blockbuster partly because it centered around Wakanda, a fictional, high tech African nation that never owned slaves. So, unlike TWK, audiences could root for Wakanda's women warriors without feeling any degree of guilt.
I would have totally watched The woman king movies if they would have showed them as crual as they were in real life, but no, they had to portray them with modern ethics.
,l,, for the producers.
Awesome video. Personally, I fell it has a lot to do with a general lack of interest in ancient history to begin with as well. It's not taught much in schools unfortunately and the ancients rarely capture the cultural imagination like they used to in decades past. You pointed out that historical epics/stories of more recent history like 1917 are doing well along with civil-rights era pieces. I think that is the future of historicals for a while. Collectively I think we (the U.S.) are more focused on recent events and our films will reflect that for better or worse.
Liked the video. Wished you’d leave the headline clips up for a second or two longer. I can’t read that fast
I’m gonna take this moment to tell everyone to go watch kingdom of heaven extended edition (I think it might be on TH-cam still)- Soo much better than the theatrical
I have it on blu ray. It's really good so is Gladiator and Troy Director cut
@@Sean12248 Troy director cut is worse
@Karl with a K yea he’s not great (better than any other performance from him though).
But the rest of the cast- particularly Eva green and Ed Norton- are fantastic
@Karl with a K well what I was trying to say is that the other performances are so good they overshadow blooms own so you don’t notice as much and the film is worth watching for their performances alone even in spite of his sub par one
Kingdom of Heaven (Extended) is my favorite historical Epic of all time. Time to rewatch it again!
Great insights and presentation. Thank you for making this. I observe that fans are just burned out on "historical epics" because 1) they are so far from the actual historical truth, fans get angry and then share that with others who refuse to watch the movie; 2) fans are burned out from $multi-million SFX that are great 70% of the time and then suck 30%; 3) fans are done with preachy hollywoke indoctrination lies and casting that ruin the movie; 4) horrible writing is so noticeable that even the actors have a hard time selling the story/ and the writing is so bad because of #1 and #3; 5) the economy, groceries are hard enough to buy let alone a $10-15 movie ticket; 6) production studios are making the huge mistake of theatrical release with simultaneous streaming angering and alienating all concerned (cast to distributors).
And now Napoleon by Ridley Scott feels like a direct response to this video with even Joaquin Phoenix in your thumbnail starring as Napoleon. Full circle, sort of
Honestly in my opinion I think theres a lot of potential with historical epics that’s just been left untouched. Like expand outside of just European settings, there’s SO MUCH cool medieval and ancient battles throughout the whole world. Like one about the Mongols. I mean with how far they spread you could make a bunch of movies about the people they fought. Also seeing new weapons, armor, and cultures portrayed well get people more interested than what they’re used to!
You have a great movie Mongol already.
@@pp-bb6jj as in the Mongolian movie? I found it alright but the plot developments are really contrived and a lot of things happen just because without any explained reason.
My thoughts exactly
You could make monghol movies
African kingdom movies
Aztec movies
Tsarist Russia movies
Colonial movies
So much shit that hasn’t rlly been touched that much but Hollywood wants to make the 2627462nd WW2 movie
I avoid Greek content like the plague, that was the first part of my life. I'm ready for anything new. Current love Chinese historical epics. Hoping for more African epics.
@@pp-bb6jj ive seen 5 movies about mogol conquests.
2 gringo, 2 russian, 1 chinese.
Great vid! I feel like The Northman was a good glimpse into what new historical epics could be!
What gives me comfort is the fact that Historical Epics will never truly disappear, unlike some of the film fads that were practically born and died in short time, historical epics are such a crucial part of storytelling dating back to our earliest history and our earliest writings in any civilisation or culture. Myth, stories of great deeds, of important conflicts, of nation-shaping events, of collective moments of triumph, all these are embedded in our cultures that at some point they will be brought back onto the big screen. Superheroes, Sci-FI Soap Opera's, Disaster Movies, Spoof films, Erotic Thrillers, Courtroom dramas, creature features all these are trends that have generally come much later in storytelling, and are in some cases very specific to specific sort of films.
The point being that in Hollywood, the history of Western storytelling makes it inevitable that historical epics will come back, they are effective timeless stories because their being historical means they can't ever grow any older than they already are. It might take a while, given that we had waves in the 1910s-1920s European epics (plus 30s imperial epics), the 50s-60s of Hollywood epics that collapsed dramatically, then the 2000s resurgence. But in-between then historical epics still made a huge impact, although the historical periods depicted obviously differed, and in the waves it was mostly myths/ancient/biblical stories that became popular. In regards to those waves I mentioned thats what books on historical epics have said.
I’m infuriated that historical films aren’t being released all the time because historical is my favorite genre. History is my hobby and main fascination for as long as I can remember. I became a filmmaker because I want to live my life making historical movies. But they’re not getting made as often as I like and the ones that do get made bomb or get cancelled on television.
This genre goes and comes back all the time. Since the beginning of cinema. Lol.
People aren't going to stop watch films with history it's silly to even argue
Agreed. It's just that right now different eras are more popular. I am surprised he did not mention more TV shows, since ancient eras seem to be more popular on tv. I immediately thought of Spartacus and there has been several Viking shows the last few years.
@@divitiae 100 percent.
GOT opened a ton of doors (before it wrote itself out of pop culture anyway)
@@guileniam It’s back in with House of the Dragon.
@@deriznohappehquite mmm I mean speculative but maybe
It's a great essay, nice work 😀
cheers Vicky!
As another late 90s kid, i tell you social media is a FUCKING CANCER. A brazilian cinematographer used to say "Idiots will dominate the world by sheer number" and the internet became their greatest weapon.
I think another part of it is the fact that the same 3 cultures are portrayed in these movies. I mean seriously Medieval Europe is not the only interesting part of human history. It’s a huge planet and way more interesting and older cultures that deserve their stories told.
Then go watch a bollywood/korean historical epic. Have fun trying to piece that one together. To understand a historical story you need a base level of knowledge in the culture.
Because people want to relate to the characters. Why do you think they hire Anglo-German actors to portray Romans and Greeks, and try to hamfist European characters into Asian history. Because that's what most of the US and Western Europe (biggest markets) relate to. If your Ancient Persia or Ancient Egypt story doesn't have a white dude in a main role your movie's going to bomb.
I believe the genre is alive in other countries. In India they release this kind of films regularly, I think. Corea has made a couple of films about the Imjin War in the last decade. And I've seen that China also makes historical epics. Nevertheless these films are not always easy to find in my country so I haven't watched as many as I like.
I know it's not strictly historical epic (because it's fantasy) but the lord of the rings films were the real reason for the boom in historical epics in the 00s
That and Ridley Scott got to do whatever he wanted after Gladiator which is how Kingdom of Heaven, Robin Hood, and the last duel.
I was a kid and my dad would let me watch these movies with him, every now and then we get a movie like the king but I miss this time in movies
Gal Gadot is actually really good casting because Cleopatra was actually Greek not Egyptian her father general Ptolemy inherited Egypt right after Alexander the great died
Exactly what I was about to post!👍👍
I love historical epics, and I think 300 started the downfall of the genre by being more graphic novel fantasy than serious drama. It was after that when movies like Wrath of the Titans and Gods of Egypt began influencing the genre with fantasy and mythological nonsense. Those are quite a different kind of movie than Troy or Kingdom of Heaven. Its no wonder the genre has declined.
So, recently I've been exploring older epics, and epics from other countries, and there's a lot of good stuff out there!
Korea and China have been making some really great historical epics the last 20 years. In Korea it's mostly TV shows, really soap operas, but they're still good if you can get past the low production budgets and cheesiness. The reason they are so great and so refreshing is because they have some things western film and TV media lack today. In particular: pride in national/cultural history and unironic earnestness/sincerity.
Western historical dramas are written by modern westerners, who suffer from this strange disease of self-consciousness surrounding traditional norms and values. We especially don't want to be seen as naive. So we can no longer write a western character like the Korean historical drama heroes Jumong and Dae Jo Yeong. Eastern audiences still love these characters and the grand narratives they occupy, same as people have always done. We instinctively love these earnest heroes. But in the west, it's a guilty pleasure to be suppressed. And western writers don't want to be caught dead writing them.
For similar reasons, western historical dramas always have to have some subversive subtext. The Last Duel is a great example, going far out of its way to discredit the middle ages, to indict it for brutality and callousness and inegalitarianism, greatly exaggerating these faults. They'll still make a film set in the middle ages, but the writers will take every opportunity to crap on medieval thought, to vilify the period as a whole. The heroism is not sincere, it always comes across as sarcastic. Because the people writing these films are not sincere. They don't respect the history they're writing about, they're self-conscious about being perceived as unironically, naively glorifying traditional norms like masculinity, heroism, Christianity, etc. So it's no wonder they can't resist the urge to layer everything onto a subtext of modern critical culture.
The characters are dressed in medieval clothing and armor, but their personalities, their speech and mannerisms, their character, are all modern western in nature. Which means they typically suffer from the same character defects we do. They're pampered, sarcastic, ironic, self-conscious, depressed, jaded, cynical, narcissistic, faithless, mean-spirited, attention-seeking, and hypocritical. That's not necessarily by design, but just because modern western writers have obviously never met a person of the middle ages or classical antiquity, and increasingly nor have they even bothered to read about one. They have no idea who they're writing. They apparently just assume that everyone throughout history has always been the same. That people in the middle ages were just like we are, today, but with less knowledge and less sophisticated technology. Either that, or they just don't care about representing the middle ages as they were, because they're too preoccupied with fulfilling their own mission of changing the world or fixing society or whatever.
Eastern historical dramas don't have this problem. Maybe they'll develop it eventually. Or maybe it's a uniquely western disease. Eastern historical characters are not ironic allegories written to cast suspicions on traditional norms and values. When they perform some heroic feat, the subtext of the scene is completely serious. There's no question in anyone's mind that the characters are sincere and wholesome and trying to fulfill their duties and responsibilities with honor. Nor is there a subtle "deconstruction" of those values of duty and honor. It is taken for granted that everyone must fulfill his duty and that honor, loyalty, piety, love, and charity are the purpose of life.
When Jumong restores the kingdom of his ancestors, there isn't any subversive "reckoning" with the sins of his ancestors or any questioning of the worthiness of their rule. It's presented as just obvious that the kingdom should be restored, because his people have been displaced and it's plainly right that they should have a kingdom of their own, and as their royal scion, his first duty in life is to give them that. Westerners could never write a story like that today, because we've forgotten or intentionally destroyed the value of duty. Let alone the purpose of royalty. If it was made in the west, the royal family would be presented as exploiters of the common people, not as heroes renowned by the common people (with whom they hold tight ethnic/cultural/religious ties) for organizing and protecting them from enslavement by Han China. And who wants to watch a story where the main protagonists are wicked?
Western writers (and increasingly audience members) seem to just take it for granted that characters being "gray" or "antiheroes" is a good thing. Maybe one character in an ensemble being morally ambiguous is a nice addition. But what happens when the entire film industry has been brainwashed into thinking _literally every character_ needs to be morally ambiguous? All these themes and emotional cues are erased. As the audience, we're supposed to be happy that the Joseon dynasty has been reborn. These were truly great dynasties. We're not supposed to be preoccupied with critiquing ancient kingdoms for not being modern liberal democracies. We don't _want_ to feel that way. We want to find in history a reminder of the greatness of humanity. Not constant hand-wringing about our faults.
@@ToxicallyMasculinelol Yes, I agree those are problems that are afflicting most western countries recently. But it's not as though the stories told must always be heroism and patriotism. Sometimes a cold cynical take cam be good, for example, I've seen some great WWII movies from Germany.
I haven't seen anything good from Korea that I would consider "epic," but a few are on my radar. I have from India though, and they have a similar cheese factor that I can sometimes get over, sometimes not. They're all musicals, haha. Still, some are very good.
@@Luxington1 That's true, I didn't mean to suggest I'm only interested in classical hero tales in cinema. I just think our film industry has a much harder time producing classical hero tales in film than other kinds of stories. And it's such a conspicuous absence, because although those aren't the only worthwhile genre of story, they are traditionally the most common and the most popular.
I haven't seen much Indian media, but I would definitely be interested since I know India has a very renowned film industry. Any recommendations?
@@ToxicallyMasculinelol Sure, there's three that I would reccomend, the best being Mughal-E-Azam from 1960. When it was made, they weren't able to do it all in color, but it has since been fully colorized, and that's the version I would reccomend. It's meant to be seen in color, and is really striking to look at. Also, it's the easiest to get past the songs, since most of them happen in a natural way and are very enjoyable.
Padmavatti is from 2018 is good, but on the lower end. It's the ending for me.
Panipat from 2019 I think is on Netflix, and it has one of the most enthralling long battle scenes I've seen since Braveheart.
Jodhaa Akbur from 2008 is another well regarded one, but I didn't like it personally. I can't really remember why. You may like it.
"began influencing the genre with fantasy and mythological nonsense." "a different kind of movie than Troy", which is, in fact, based on the single most famous "mythological nonsense" book, the Illiad. Troy is literally about Greek mythology. War happened because of a bet of a feisty goddess and Brad Pitt dude is immortal because of the spell.
Kingdom of Heaven, The Northman, and Outlaw King are some of my favourite movies of all time
hey, buddy!
You did fine with the histogram, but I would recommend you to plot the grouped years in ascending order in time, not by total amount of movies
I’m down for super hero movies and love them but I do also miss the epic historic movies we used to get in the early 2000’s as I also love history and find it incredibly interesting so I like kingdom of Heaven, Gladiator etc. i also love film so I really enjoy seeing the huge sets and big sequences with massive crowds and action from epics
Man, I miss these types of movies.
30 years later and Ive been singing the brave heart theme for the last 3 days still. What a movie.
I’m so thankful that Jim Jeffries agreed to narrate this video.
Wonderful video, just wanted to point out a grammar error
You said "big elephant in the room effecting"... It's "affecting"
The effect affects
Basically, the genre became overly saturated. Studio demand for "historical epics" outstripped the number of quality writers, directors and production teams that were capable of producing a high quality product. To add to the problem, the deadlines constrict the ability to produce a properly finished and polished product. These factors, combined with the huge amounts of money being thrown at these productions has effectively simultaneously killed audience AND studio demand for this genre of movies.
The exact same thing is happening with the Super-hero franchises.