This is fascinating! Rameau is just "out of tune" enough in all the right places to make it super interesting. I believe my ear enjoys it the most but what seems proper is Werkmeister III. What would Bach have heard?
My ear also enjoys Rameau the most, but Bach clearly had a well temperament in mind, so I imagine he would have preferred one of the other two. And, like you, I tend to think Werckmeister would be the most suitable.
@02:55 The problem is not quarter-comma meantone. The problem is the combination of quarter-comma meantone with being limited to 12 notes per octave. I wish you could get your hands on that harpsichord (video floating somewhere around on TH-cam) that has 31 notes per octave . . . That would have no problem even if tuned in actual quarter-comma meantone (although a more nuanced 31 notes per octave circulating temperament might be better -- needs more exploration). (And no, I don't mean the arcicembalo, which has 36 notes per octave, but split into 2 manuals, fo 19 notes and 17 notes, for worse ergonomics.)
This sounds out of tune in all 3 termperaments. None of the 3rds are anywhere near just intonation for example in the opening bar. Shouldn't the temperament be centered around the key of the piece?
There are different ways of going about it. Not all thirds are pure, but this depends on the temperament. Also, just because just intonation is not used, that does not mean something is out of tune. And temperaments are traditionally not modified to fit the key of the piece -- which is why a temperament can be part of the expressive content of the music.
@@johnmoraitis I find it difficult to believe Bach would have favored such a rigid system. Of course there's no actual evidence he was trying to demonstrate some kind of well-temperament, we must remember many of the pieces were directly transposed from easier standard keys which suggest he wasn't looking for a specific color at all. Almost all Baroque music gravitate to certain keys to maximize purity of interval based on their temperament choice. The structure of the music seems to me to demand a strong contrast from consonance to dissonance in nearly all of Bach's works but especially the WTC.
@@JL-fh4qw Well, he did call it "Well-Tempered" clavier, so he probably did want it "well-tempered" :) Whether he was looking for a specific color, or even a specific well temperament, that's a different issue. A particular piece can respond to different colors, and it could be that he also did not have one specific well temperament in mind, but simply tuned to taste with slight variations. You would still need one temperament to make all keys of the WTC playable, and you can only achieve that with well-tempered tunings.
@@johnmoraitis While I understand he titled it that way, he does not explain that it is some goal to show capabilities of a temperament to all 24 keys. Nor does he provide instructions for a specific temperament. To my ears the beginning of bwv 881 minor 3rds are far more out of tune than playing in equal temperament, which to me defeats the purpose of using an unequal one.
I am becoming addicted to your fascinating videos and the beautiful and poetic clarity of your spoken explanations. Thank you so much for sharing your passion...I am going now to donate.
I discovering this aspect of keyboard playing. Nowadays on an electronic instrument it's very easy to switch from a temperament to the other by pressing a key, but you had to retune the whole harpsichord, wow... Couldn't hear much difference though between the 3 versions so far, I'm afraid.
I usually leave a little space between each retuning (and I think for this video I made the recordings on two separate sessions), so it hasn't been a problem thus far. But I also make the recording right after I tune, so it doesn't have time to react :-)
This is fascinating! Rameau is just "out of tune" enough in all the right places to make it super interesting. I believe my ear enjoys it the most but what seems proper is Werkmeister III. What would Bach have heard?
My ear also enjoys Rameau the most, but Bach clearly had a well temperament in mind, so I imagine he would have preferred one of the other two. And, like you, I tend to think Werckmeister would be the most suitable.
@02:55 The problem is not quarter-comma meantone. The problem is the combination of quarter-comma meantone with being limited to 12 notes per octave. I wish you could get your hands on that harpsichord (video floating somewhere around on TH-cam) that has 31 notes per octave . . . That would have no problem even if tuned in actual quarter-comma meantone (although a more nuanced 31 notes per octave circulating temperament might be better -- needs more exploration). (And no, I don't mean the arcicembalo, which has 36 notes per octave, but split into 2 manuals, fo 19 notes and 17 notes, for worse ergonomics.)
This sounds out of tune in all 3 termperaments. None of the 3rds are anywhere near just intonation for example in the opening bar. Shouldn't the temperament be centered around the key of the piece?
There are different ways of going about it. Not all thirds are pure, but this depends on the temperament. Also, just because just intonation is not used, that does not mean something is out of tune. And temperaments are traditionally not modified to fit the key of the piece -- which is why a temperament can be part of the expressive content of the music.
@@johnmoraitis I find it difficult to believe Bach would have favored such a rigid system. Of course there's no actual evidence he was trying to demonstrate some kind of well-temperament, we must remember many of the pieces were directly transposed from easier standard keys which suggest he wasn't looking for a specific color at all. Almost all Baroque music gravitate to certain keys to maximize purity of interval based on their temperament choice. The structure of the music seems to me to demand a strong contrast from consonance to dissonance in nearly all of Bach's works but especially the WTC.
@@JL-fh4qw Well, he did call it "Well-Tempered" clavier, so he probably did want it "well-tempered" :) Whether he was looking for a specific color, or even a specific well temperament, that's a different issue. A particular piece can respond to different colors, and it could be that he also did not have one specific well temperament in mind, but simply tuned to taste with slight variations. You would still need one temperament to make all keys of the WTC playable, and you can only achieve that with well-tempered tunings.
@@johnmoraitis While I understand he titled it that way, he does not explain that it is some goal to show capabilities of a temperament to all 24 keys. Nor does he provide instructions for a specific temperament. To my ears the beginning of bwv 881 minor 3rds are far more out of tune than playing in equal temperament, which to me defeats the purpose of using an unequal one.
I love temperament comparison videos! Thank you so much for sharing.
I'm happy you liked it! I want to post more in the future, and next time it will be a more remote tonality!
8:35 Rameau Temperament
11:20 Kirnberger III Temperment
14:09 Werkmeister III Temerament
I am becoming addicted to your fascinating videos and the beautiful and poetic clarity of your spoken explanations. Thank you so much for sharing your passion...I am going now to donate.
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
I discovering this aspect of keyboard playing. Nowadays on an electronic instrument it's very easy to switch from a temperament to the other by pressing a key, but you had to retune the whole harpsichord, wow... Couldn't hear much difference though between the 3 versions so far, I'm afraid.
Who's afraid of the big bad wolf?
It all depends on the tonality, doesn't it? :-) It would probably be more fearsome in the D-sharp minor fugue :-)
@@johnmoraitis then would you record it for us?
@@RitaPas It's one of the pieces on my list of future projects, so perhaps later this year!
rameau is the best to me, I am really loving your videos!
just discovered your channel!
Very beautyfull :)
Thank you!
@@johnmoraitis
how does a harpsichord "react" to being tuned in so different ways in a relatively short span of time?
I usually leave a little space between each retuning (and I think for this video I made the recordings on two separate sessions), so it hasn't been a problem thus far. But I also make the recording right after I tune, so it doesn't have time to react :-)